John (00:03): That’s right. It’s just me. I got a topic I want to talk about. This is a topic that maybe I haven’t talked so directly about, but in a lot of ways it’s been a big part of my work. It’s something that I’ve talked about for years, but I want to hit it head on today. And that’s if you are a service provider. I want to talk about the idea of productizing your service. So what do I mean by that? What I mean is creating service offerings that you can describe, explain price deliver almost as though they were a product I have for years delivered something we call Strategy First, and it is essentially our approach to developing strategy. So it is a service that we offer to business owners and we have dialed that in so thoroughly. Frankly, it was actually the genesis of Duct Tape Marketing of me creating the approach to Duct Tape Marketing was that I was a little frustrated going out and essentially delivering my marketing services in not a one-off fashion, but in a custom fashion almost whatever somebody needed.

(01:15): That’s what we designed a proposal around. That’s what we delivered. That’s how I priced it. And a lot of agencies do that. You can build a nice business doing that. But I was frustrated because I just felt like I was working more and making less as I grew that. So I created this productized approach. I called a marketing system, and we all the way down to exactly what happens when a client signs on to all the way through the way they’re onboarded. Everything we deliver in the final is really packaged up in a way that I can call it a product. That’s why we gave it a brand name. So that’s the idea behind a productized service. Now, I used an example of marketing, frankly. Accounting can have productized services, legal services can be productized, any kind of consulting can and in my view should be productized.

(02:07): There are some, I think some glaring benefits to why you might want to do this. The first one I started talking about is scalability. It is very difficult to scale an offering that is made up every time that is new for every customer. That is, and here’s my favorite word, bespoke. It’s very difficult to scale that because in a lot of ways it takes the enormous experience and let’s call it brainpower of the person who can be that nimble and deliver every single time. Now, there’s probably a place out there in the world for completely customized versions of service delivery, and in fact, we do it in the right circumstances. But for the most part, if you want to scale a service business, you have to create something that is very easy to message, that is very easy to explain. And frankly, when it comes to scale is easy to actually delegate and hire people and to train people how to deliver that package.

(03:13): And that’s much harder to do if essentially everybody’s making it up every single time they go out and work with a new client. So to me, that scalability is probably the leading benefit of doing this. I already mentioned this a little bit, but the sales process gets so much simpler Instead of, okay, what do you need? Okay, we’ll put together a proposal. Okay, we’ll refine their proposal. We’ll make it fit to the budget that you have. When you’re able to walk in and say, here’s what I’m going to do, here’s what you’re going to do. Here are the results we hope to get from this approach. And by the way, here’s what it costs. Shortens the sales cycle, which to me is a great thing. You get a yes or a no, but it also makes it very easy for you to explain exactly what somebody’s getting.

(04:01): I mean, that’s one of the most valuable things you can have in a sailing situation is something that’s very simple to explain. Somebody can get it. They can see on one sheet of paper, here’s what we’re going to do. It also will lead to much higher profit margins. And one of the reasons for that is that when you’re constantly having to figure out how to serve a client, have to write proposals, how to create whatever the deliverable calls for based on the scope of their proposal, there’s a lot of learning that goes into that. And if you can create a repeatable process, you will get better at delivering value because you’ve done it before. You will get faster at delivering value because you’ve done it many times now. And consequently, those two things alone will lead to much higher profitability. But the final piece that I think a lot of people underestimate is when you’ve got something that you can actually show somebody, here’s a proven process to get you results, it is very simple to explain to them exactly what they’re going to get.

(05:15): You can also charge a premium. So you’ve got really that profitability working two ways for you. You can generally charge more for a name branded service offering that you can now deliver very affordably or much quicker, or you can delegate to work to people that are at a much less experienced than you. It just leads to a much more profitable, and here’s the final reason to do it. And frankly, if all those other reasons weren’t enough, the final benefit or reason for doing this is that it’s a better customer experience. I know that everybody, I mean, everybody we talk to, it’s like, no, I want want something that’s tailored just to my needs. Well, on the surface, that sounds really great, but you rather have something that I’ve actually worked on for years and refined and evolved and seeing what works and seeing what doesn’t work.

(06:12): I can deliver. You can deliver much greater value by having a proven process. Now it takes time to prove that, to refine it. I mean, we’ve been doing this for 25 years and it’s evolved every single year for us as well. So to me, the product itself, because we have focused on here’s what you get, here’s what it costs, has gotten much, much better. Now, are there challenges in productizing? Some of what you’ll run up against is just what I mentioned. People want a custom approach. They don’t want cookie cutter. They feel like if it’s not created just for them that there’s something less. And so it really becomes important for you to not only create that productized approach, but be able to communicate very effectively the value, what’s in it for them. I think when people start to realize that by creating a repeatable system, you give people not only the option of getting a better end service, but you also get far better at delivering it.

(07:18): There’s just so much more value in it for them. So I think that the messaging really has to be about that is a lot of times people focus on, well, we can deliver this better, or we just get, we’ve got this down so that we have a very fulfillment engine that is very productized. It’s very systemized. But the key of course, is helping that buyer, that customer, that client understand why that is so much more valuable to them. So how do you get started doing something like this? Because one of the challenges I think a lot of people have in productizing, if you will, is that they’re serving such a diverse market. It’s very hard to actually create one or two or three things, packages, products, if you will, for all of the services that they might be able to offer. So it does help if you can narrow your focus first off.

(08:10): So I’m not necessarily saying a niche, maybe it is for you, but at the very least, who are the top 20% of your customers? What do they need today? What are the problems that you’re solving for them? Could you actually create or think in terms of creating a package just for them? You’ve got to standardize the offering. It’s not enough to just say, oh, this is this and it costs this. You’ve got to work on even the promotional materials need to standardize. Here’s what you get. Here are the benefits of this. Here’s why this approach works. So just even creating marketing materials for it, you have to standardize, but then you have to start writing SOPs. You have to actually map out, whether you call it a fulfillment engine or whatever you call it, you have to map out when this happens, then this happens.

(09:00): So at the global level, you have to at least have the little boxes and arrows that point to that. But then each one of those boxes, particularly critical steps, you need to maybe create an entire training process or SOP around. And I know that this can sound like, well, it is time consuming and it sounds like it because it’s, but ultimately, if you spend several weeks even creating this repeatable system that then can serve you for years and that you can delegate and you can scale your business and you can be more profitable, probably the best couple of weeks that you’ve ever spent in terms of working on your business after you productize it, then it’s field testing. I mean, you could sit in a lab all day long and create what you think is the most brilliant approach to delivering your services in a productized manner.

(09:51): Just go out there and start doing it. Start telling people, maybe give ’em option A, B, and C, but this is what I’m going to do. This is what you’re going to do. Here are the results we hope to get, and here’s what it costs. Do you want it or not? And start fulfilling it. You’re not going to refine this thing until you’ve done it dozens of times. And that just takes practice. It takes experimenting, it takes trial and error. It takes listening to the feedback that you get from your customers. It takes really evaluating, are you getting them the result? Are you getting them a better result than they could have gotten somewhere else? So how do you market this productized service? Well, if you think about it, it is the same as marketing a product. In a lot of ways. People have to understand what it is.

(10:35): They have to understand what’s in it for them. It has to address a problem that they’re trying to solve. I mean, those are all things that really any good marketing does. But I think it’s probably important for you if you’re going to productize. It’s very important for you to, I think it’s very helpful if you give things a name, give it a brand, create collateral around it that shows somebody exactly what they are going to get, and then focus a great deal of your marketing. It’s the same for any professional services on trust building, on explaining not just the components, not just selling the components. In fact, in some ways, the productized approach doesn’t really even become an issue until somebody starts saying, how will this work for me? And then you’re able to give them the very specific way it could work for them.

(11:21): But all of your marketing education, even though you have a productized approach, is going to be around educating on the problems that this productized approach solves. I always make the joke that I sell a marketing strategy. Nobody ever wakes up and says, I’m going to go buy some marketing strategy today. But they do wake up and wonder why they’re competing on price. They do wake up and wonder why they can’t fill their pipeline. They do wake up and wonder why their competitors are always ranking ahead of them in search engines. And to a large degree, those are all problems that an effective marketing strategy can solve. So even though we’re productizing the service offerings as a way to scale, as a way to be more profitable, as a way to more easily help people understand the value they’re getting, we still have to build trust.

(12:11): We still have to create a customer journey that turns us into the trusted advisor and the productized approach happens just to be a delivery mechanism for how we get them, the results and how we communicate the results, and frankly, how we differentiate. So many people are in the marketing world, I’m sure in your whatever service world that you are in, so many people are just selling the idea of the week, are selling, the tactic of the week are going to clients and saying, what do you need? Sure, we can do that. And so this proven process driven way to deliver value in a way that’s very easy to understand is also a great different in a world of service offerings. Alright, that’s it for today. Always love to hear your comments and feedback. And if you’re on one of those services like iTunes or Spotify, make sure that you give us a review, a glowing review, of course. But we hope you like the show and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

John (00:08): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Kai Anderson. He’s a seasoned strategist who started with his own company and now leading workforce transformation for Mercer has spent years guiding organizations throughout Europe. His book, digital Human, championed the concept of Prioritizing Humans in the Digital Transformation. And today we’re going to talk about his new book Work, different 10 Truths for Winning in The People Age. So Kai, welcome to the show.

Kai (00:41): Thanks much, John. Great to be here with you.

John (00:43): So I always like to pick apart titles and subtitles particularly, and so let’s start with people age. How do you describe this thing you’re calling the People age?

Kai (00:52): I’m glad you’re picking that, John, because in fact, the idea was that the initial title was the People Age, but we turned it around. So why is it the people age? We had some major trends evolving in the past like 50 years, which brought us from the industrial age into another age. Some people argue it’s the digital age, we say it’s the people age, right? And of course we have some short-term events like the Pandemic that also accelerated some of these trends.

John (01:26): So what are some aspects that make this, I mean, what you referenced the industrial age, what are the aspects that make this the people age?

Kai (01:36): John the industrial age was very much the core paradigm of the industrial age was command and control. And that worked pretty well. And we have to see that employers and employees were not on eye level. So this was, as we see still in some organizations like military, that was a different kind of organizing work and it was a different relationship. And that has changed significantly through of course, demographics. Now that labor, we all face labor shortage, things have turned around, values have shifted. So that is something which is very different to what we’ve seen in the industrial age where we are now coming towards, well, the balance of power, if you would like to say. So where we’re coming to a new kind of relationship between employers and employees or contributors as we say.

John (02:36): Yeah. So the book also unveils 10 truths. I’m not going to ask you to name your favorite truth or name all 10 truths, but I wonder if there’s one or maybe two that you would say, Hey, these are the most significant things, or these are the things people get wrong the most in this age.

Kai (02:54): It really starts with John, what I just mentioned, the contributors. So the first chapter is Goodbye employee, hello contributor. And I think we need to get rid of the idea of an employee. People want to contribute, they want to bring their very best to work, and they want acknowledgement for that. And that is something that has changed a lot. I guess when we started working, it was all about getting a good paycheck and that was it. And that has changed dramatically. So the contributor, and we see that in our global talent trends, you might know that we do annual of course, surveys on what is trending and what people expect. And more than 40 of people say that they want appreciation for what they bring to work for their contribution. So that is a very important chapter. One of my favorites. It’s the first one. Of course, I have others.

John (03:46): And I also like the use of new language too, because I think a lot of times old language employee is kind of loaded with how people think about that. And I think it probably in some cases almost takes an entire, you mentioned paradigm, almost a paradigm shift of what an employee or the term employee even is.

Kai (04:03): Absolutely.

John (04:04): So you also mentioned the pandemic, and it’s hard to talk about any kind of thing around team and staffing without bringing it up. Hopefully we’ll grow out of that at some point. But remote work certainly has been around for a period of time, but talk about accelerating that. It’s certainly changed a lot of organizations dramatically. How does the people age, how do the 10 truths really relate to the idea that so many people now are not physically in a building with their place of employment?

Kai (04:31): I’m glad you’re asking. Of course. We have a dedicated chapter on that. It’s called The New Rhythm of Work. And that is, by the way, we have a lot of musical references. So if you’re not into music, you might not like the book, but if you’re into music, we have a lot of references here. And the new rhythm of work is the good thing. There was one good thing about the Pandemic then it was that it showed us what is possible with regard to working virtually. And in the beginning it worked out pretty well. But then we kind of struggled in organizations started to struggle because we were getting out of sync. So some people were starting early, others were starting late, some were commuting, others were working from home. So we are not in sync anymore. And that is why some companies are calling people back into their offices, which is of course not the answer because the ghost is out of the bottle. You cannot turn it back. But we need to find that new rhythm. We need to get back in sync with each other to make that entire thing work.

John (05:42): If the workplace is changing, if organizations are realizing this is the people age, what leadership, how does leadership have to change? Does training need to change? Do who we think of as a leader need to change? Certainly the hierarchical structure of leadership has to change. What do you tell people now when they’re trying to think, how do we develop leaders in our organization in this kind of new age?

Kai (06:04): First of all, leaders should read our book, John, obviously, of course,

John (06:09): Yes. Well, that of course,

Kai (06:14): Because, no, I think the book is not targeted at HR people, not primarily it’s targeted at leaders, at executives. It’s targeted at people that want to understand how this new world of working is working and what it takes. And I think we have some really great advice also for leaders in here. Let me take one or two things. The basics of good leadership have not changed, not really being on eye level, these kinds of things. But of course there things that are new. And let me take empathy for example. Empathy is something that has really emerged strongly with the pandemic because we had to get into the other’s shoes, really understand what is bothering you, how do you feel? And that kind of notion, think back 30 years ago, that would’ve been impossible, but now it’s a leadership competency we’re talking about. And empathy is the beginning of inclusion. And what we all want is a diverse and inclusive workforce. So the basis for that is empathy. So we are drawing the line here to make sure that people understand what is good leadership about what has changed and what do you need to know as a leader in the people age.

John (07:40): So there were a couple of terms that were certainly used throughout the us. I’m not sure if they were used as much in Europe, quite quitting, and the great resignation where people were up and leaving, choosing other jobs. And I think a lot of people initially kind of pegged that as, oh, people just don’t want to work anymore. But I think what really came out of that was people just don’t want to work for you anymore or at this place. So how does this real sort of desire for engagement, for wellbeing in the place that they work manifests itself?

Kai (08:12): It’s also something that has very much been accelerated by the pandemic. We were sitting in our homes, we were considering and thinking about what’s life about and what do I expect from life and what do I expect from work? What do I expect from my employer? And so it wasn’t really surprising that people in the pandemic and after the pandemic thought, is that it or is there more to it? And what am I going to do? And of course, we have to be fair, John, this was fueled to some extent by the labor market situation. Of course, when I can change like this, that’s not that much of an issue. I think it’s now a bit harder and the great resignation has stopped as a movement. But also here, I think we see a genuine shift of preferences with people. And we see people asking for purpose, for purpose of their companies, for purpose in their lives. And I think that’s a good movement.

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(10:25): Now, this offer is limited to new active campaign customers only. So what are you waiting for? Fuel your growth. Boost revenue and save precious time by upgrading to active campaign today. So you already mentioned diversity and inclusion. I think that workplaces have become more diverse generationally, I think, which is probably driving some of this. You think of some of what we’ve talked about has really been attributed to millennials. The I want to work at a place that matters necessarily that’s higher than what I’m paid. Maybe talk a little bit about, I know you have a whole chapter on diversity and inclusion and not as a regulatory process and more of a people want to work in companies that value that.

Kai (11:11): That is also some of the shift in preferences that we are seeing that is very much tied to, I want to bring myself to work. I want to be looked at as an individual. That entire idea of the workforce, the human resource is a very abstract thing. And that is not John. We are living in a world of hyper individualization. People want to be seen as an individual. I have been working with the former CHO from Betina Fox, and she’s a great woman. I did my last book with her and she said, everybody wants to be seen. That was her mantra. Everybody wants to be seen with an airline. Imagine. That is so true, isn’t it? And that is the genuine idea of inclusion and diversity.

John (12:04): So how do the truths that you share in this book or the insights you share in this book help people create a more inclusive environment, help people be more seen?

Kai (12:15): I think it’s the combination, and I think it starts with a general idea of this people age that has come and we have a dedicated chapter on AI and technology, but the idea is it starts with the people. And if you consider that when you ask executives what’s your most valuable resource? What will they answer to the people? It’s the people. But that has been a lip service, John, for years and years now. It’s becoming true. Now people start realizing it is the most valuable resource and that is the first thing I think that needs to not necessarily change, but that needs to be top of people’s mind to say, yeah, it’s the people that will make us successful or not. And it’s the diversity of people that will make us more successful. And we have studies on that. We know that diverse teams are better performing than non-diverse teams. So we know that. And I think you don’t have to argue about that anymore. The question is in fact, how do you do it?

John (13:29): Right? So you mentioned ai. That was my very next question. Certainly a lot of hand wringing in some circles just about the idea that AI is going to replace people, that robots are going to replace people. So how do you leverage technology? Because we also know that this technology sometimes affords us some great things. So how do you leverage technology with also then keeping some sort of human touch?

Kai (13:55): John, I’m a big tech fan, frankly, and I’m a big believer of technology being an amplifier for our capabilities, which is why the chapter on AI we call intelligence is amplified. So we see it as an amplifier for our intelligence. And then you mentioned the gains. We’re talking 10 to 30% productivity increase. So this is incredible, especially if we consider that the past years have been stagnating with regard to productivity increase. So here’s the kind of boost that we all want, and I see it as a means, or we see it in the book as something that is highly beneficial for the organization, of course, but also for the contributor for people within the organization. If we manage to of what we call have a fair distribution of the digital dividend.

John (14:56): I know in my organization, most of the members of our team are fit into the millennial generation, age wise. And one of the things that I find is very valuable to them, they always want to continue to learn what we talk about it every week. You learn this week, what’s a new thing you can share this week? How do you cultivate that kind of culture without also cramming stuff down people’s throats? It’s like you have to keep learning, you have to keep training, you have to keep reading. How do you create that in a way that feels very natural?

Kai (15:28): That’s a cultural thing first. And look at Microsoft. They did an entire campaign on learn it all versus know it all and look at where they are. So to me, that is first of all, really cultural development. And you need to get to a culture that first of all is about curiosity, being curious, trying new things, exploring things. I think we have cultural differences when we look at the US versus Europe versus Asia. Europeans are much more hesitating when it comes to new technology that’s different in different parts of the world. But start with the chances first, have that kind of curiosity. And then it’s about of course, embedding learning into everyday work, giving people the tools, giving people also some time, and most importantly, having the freedom to fail. So what we call psychological safety, create that psychological safety. You say you try it goes wrong, doesn’t matter. You’re not supposed to do it wrong twice, but once is.

John (16:41): Yeah. Right, right, right. So I’m sure you get this question, especially in a consulting role. If you’re talking to a CEO, you’re talking about change in some instances. This is not how every business is run, right? Today. So you’re talking about some significant change sometimes equates to significant investment. So how do you help people realize the return on an investment in their people? Like we’re talking about, is there a way to measure this has been successful?

Kai (17:07): Good question, John. When we are embarking on these exo, the first thing that we make sure is we are not really convincing people like the return of investment, but rather is it the right thing to do? So you want to get more profitable? Where does it start? What are you going to do without the kind of performance mindset? You want to be more innovative, you want to be more customer centered. Is that a structural thing or is that a mindset kind of thing? So this is first of all, you believe it or not, and there are people that don’t believe it, that rather want to get into structures, into processes and say, this is not about people. More and more people buy into the idea of at least people have something to do with it. So I’m not saying that we are not, of course we are setting objectives like net promoter scores where there’s a whole bunch of objectives and we are doing extensive employee listening to see what arrives with employees, with contributors. So this is something, and in the end, of course you want to see the business results of all of that, but it’s caused an effect. I know, and we know we have great examples also in the book from organization that managed to kind of become a digital champion, for example, by at least investing heavily into their people, into their cultures and their people practices. There’s the hardwired stuff as well. There’s objective setting, incentive systems, performance management, you name it. Of course, that plays a role.

John (18:54): I suspect if you want to default or what I would default maybe as a simple metric is retention too. I mean that’s so many people left companies they didn’t like working for and it was very expensive to replace them.

Kai (19:09): Retention. Meanwhile, retention is a business objective. Exactly. Just diversity is just as diverse, just as engagement. Of course. You’re absolutely right.

John (19:22): Well, Kai, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. You want to invite people where they might connect with you. Obviously find a copy of your latest book work different.

Kai (19:33): John, thank you so much. Yeah, please reach out LinkedIn, great channel. Make sure that we follow you, John. Great talking to you. Good fun.

John (19:41): Yep. Awesome. Again, thanks for stopping. Bye. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there in Europe.

John (00:03): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Tony DiSilvestro. He is an entrepreneur, business consultant and keynote speaker, passionate about helping businesses realize their exponential growth, Tony’s successes, and these are his words and failure too, have afforded him life’s lessons that he enjoys sharing with others. He’s also the author of the business, scaling Blueprint, which we’ll probably dive into a little bit today as well. So Tony, welcome to the show.

Tony (00:34): Oh, thanks for having me today. Excited to be here.

John (00:36): So let’s talk about, we could take the whole show talking about your entrepreneurial journey, but let’s give a few high spots that give people a sense of where you learned your hard-earned lessons.

Tony (00:49): Yeah, I grew up on the Jersey Shore as a kid and learned what the value of a customer at such a young age, and it’s really given me the path to understand business and understand it doesn’t really matter what business I’m in, I’m in the people business. And that’s kind of where it all started for me.

John (01:04): So let’s just dive into, I think this is a good jumping in point for all the positive lessons we’re going to talk about. What are some of the things that people get wrong, the misperceptions about scaling, why it’s so hard to do, why people beat their head against the wall? I mean, what are we all doing wrong that’s not allowing us to scale sort of elegantly?

Tony (01:23): There’s a couple things. We all started out as business owners, we think we’re great at something. So we say, Hey, we get this wild hair and we start a business. And the problem with that is everybody thinks they’re entrepreneurs, but you don’t truly become an entrepreneur until you start systemizing your systems. Learn how to delegate and then invest in your people. So one of the things that I find with a lot of companies, whether they’re doing three to 5 million, 10 million a year, it doesn’t matter, they’re stuck. You know what I mean? They’re wearing every hat in the company still, and they can’t get out of their own way and trust people.

John (01:55): I can’t remember where I heard this or who said this, but somebody said, business owners look at everything that needs to be done. They say, how are we going to get this done? Entrepreneurs look at everything and said, who can we get to do this? And I think that’s a pretty key distinction. Right? Yeah. So this may sound silly, but let’s define for the context of this conversation, what is scaling even mean?

Tony (02:16): Well, it’s funny. Scaling for me means different things for every entrepreneur. So some entrepreneurs want quality of life to spend more time with their family. Some people want 10 x 20 x hundred x their business, so it doesn’t matter. And I work with so many ceos all over the world and founders of companies, and every one of ’em has a different vision of what scaling means and what success means to them. So it’s really, I don’t put entrepreneurs or ceos in a certain box. I’m constantly just working with them, working with their c suites and really helping them understand what scaling truly means to them.

John (02:51): Yeah. I assume though there are a few key concepts, a few strategies that you probably bring to everybody to at least explore. So maybe you could, especially from the book itself, what are some of the core concepts that you have to be maybe are overlooked or people just don’t think about them, that you find that you have to really focus on to get people started in the right direction?

Tony (03:12): The first thing I always start out with is really defining their brand. What are the three pillars of your brand? So many companies are disconnected with truly what the purpose of their company is. And it’s not just the founder. The founder has this vision but doesn’t resonate with the employees, and then ultimately it doesn’t resonate with the customers. So I redeveloped their entire brand and make them truly think some of this processes takes over two months to develop. And then I go into systemizing their systems. So I’ve been in franchising for 14 years, and systems are everything. Anybody that’s in franchising knows you’re not selling, say a restaurant or a handyman company. You’re selling a system, and that’s what people want to buy. And that’s why the failure rate in franchises is so much lower than regular entrepreneurs that are starting a mom and pop shop or a family owned business because they focus so much on the systems of the company. And then you can delegate and then you can train, and then you can market.

John (04:09): Talk a little bit though about one of the things that I know a lot of businesses, I’ve been doing this for 30 years, we can pick a change. I mean, there’s so much change that goes on in business. The current change is probably a technology one that’s got the most people buzzing right now, and that’s ai. I mean, how do you continue to scale or have a vision for a business while constantly monitoring wholesale changes that might be going on in your industry?

Tony (04:34): It’s funny, I love ai, but everybody’s got to understand AI is a tool, and if you’re not putting it in your tool bag, you’re going to be left behind because it’s happening so fast and you have to utilize it and see how you can adapt your business. I’ve changed so many parts of my business with AI already, but adapting technology is something I’ve done for over 30 years. Whenever there was something new out there, I’m wondering what’s going on. When Bitcoin first came out, I tried to take it in my restaurants and I wanted to accept Bitcoin, and this is before it was even out. It was like $4 of coin. And I wish I would’ve known to buy a wallet at that time, but I didn’t. But the thing is, if you’re not adapting to change, if you’re not understanding friction and understanding what’s happening in your business, then you’re going to die. You’re never going to make it. Change is inevitable in our companies, and you have to be a change advocate.

John (05:26): I often tell in the marketing world, people are talking about AI replacing their jobs. I mean to do content and all the things AI can do. And I said, no, AI’s not going to replace your job. Somebody’s as good as you that’s using AI is going to replace you. And I think, yeah, I think your point of it’s just a tool. It’s like, how can it allow us to do something faster and better? If it can’t, then it’s not useful. You mentioned my

Tony (05:51): Business,

John (05:52): Go ahead, finish. Go ahead. Was going to got just enough lag that we’re talking over each other. Alright, one of your businesses go,

Tony (06:00): I said one of my businesses a marketing company as well, and the same thing is always looking for results. And I’m always looking for AI and other avenues to help people grow their businesses and scale. So I mean, every tool that’s out there and it’s as accessible, you need to be educated on it and learn from it. Go on YouTube, find a video. It doesn’t matter. Just educate yourself.

John (06:19): So you mentioned already, and I want to dive into it, but every business is a people business. It doesn’t matter what they sell, what they do. So talk to me a little bit about that idea, but then let’s get into some specifics because I bet you get some pushback from somebody’s like, no, we sell blah, blah, blah widget. We’re not a people business.

Tony (06:37): So a lot of times I go into business and I truly mean it. We’re in the ninety-eight 0.6 degree business. That’s the business we’re in. And I’ve founded over thirty-three different companies in different industries. And every single business I’m in, it’s all about human capital and how are we helping human capital accomplish their goals and the results that we’re looking for? And people will push back and they’re like, no, we’re architects. I said, no, you’re designing somebody’s home. You’re not designing their house. This is where people are going to live. So I’m very results-driven, right? So if I walk into a sales team, I’m looking at sales-centric versus results-centric motivations of selling because if you’re selling, you’re dying. But if you’re focused on results, then you’re going to actually do something. So when we’re looking at human capital and businesses, we need people to grow. And when you talk about scaling, the number one way to scale is through delegation, as we alluded to before. But that is people. And I don’t care if you’re selling cars, widgets, food doesn’t matter, building homes. I mean, that’s what it is.

John (07:37): So yeah, it’s interesting. Your portfolio of businesses is all over the map. I mean, you have a building company, you have a restaurant. You already talked about some professional services that you offer. So do you have, not templates the wrong word, but do you have a framework that’s a better word for this idea of building a people-centric culture?

Tony (07:57): Yes. Invest in your systems immediately. Entrepreneurs go out of business right away. But when I’m talking about investing your systems, I’m talking about as granular as you possibly can. If I would’ve taken that time when I first opened my business to really think about the processes and procedures and really document every system, I wouldn’t have had two major failures in my life because I would’ve been way more educated. I would’ve had better systems, and I would’ve been able to delegate and actually avoid mistake avoidance to something I work with a lot with entrepreneurs all over the world. How are you handling mistake avoidance, right? Learn from those people. I was always surrounded, everybody’s like, go talk to those old people. They’ve been there and done that. You can’t replace wisdom. There’s no doubt.

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Tony (09:50): Sure. There’s no doubt. Systems create confidence, right? Systems give people a clear expectation. My training company is all about upper mobility training. So we train employees and give them a clear path to growth, but you cannot create that clear path to growth unless you give them a system, set proper expectations. And if they do fail, what are you looking at when that employee fails? You’re going back, fix your system because it’s not the employee that’s going, it’s typically your system that’s broken. So when I talk about systems, I constantly, I love friction. There’s nothing better than friction because the problem is an opportunity. Opportunities create solutions and solutions create results. And I’m driven that way every single day. We don’t have problems in our companies. We have opportunities. And if you’re focused that way and you’re creating systems that help people grow and achieve the result that you’re looking for, then the culture’s better in your company. They love coming to work every day. They know the path and they see a growth path. Because I’ll tell you, I’ve hired so many employees recently, and the one question, is there an opportunity to grow? Everybody right now is so focused on growth.

John (10:55): Yeah, yeah. More so than sauer is on there, but it’s way down the list, isn’t it?

Tony (10:59): Right? No doubt. Yeah.

John (11:01): So alright, if company hires you, I’m sure, especially if you have a training company, people are like, will you train those idiots for me? Right? I mean, unfortunately there’s a little bit of leadership mentality that still has that. How do you get the lead? Because you can train until you’re dead, right? I mean, if it doesn’t start at the top, how do you get people who have the wrong mindset to shift their mindset or just tell ’em, Hey, I can’t help you.

Tony (11:25): No, I show them a path. So it’s not only our training system, we go through the roi of the company. How are you increasing incremental sales? How are you working on customer satisfaction, employee satisfaction? So you can’t just walk into a founder or a CEO and say, your training’s terrible. You need to just train these people. So what we’ve developed is a very in-depth training system that’s all about upper mobility. And it’s not just for the low level employee, it’s all the way up to the top level managers. How are they improving themselves? So our system really gives them, they can self-analyze themselves and realize where they’re at any given time, and we equate it even to their salaries. So they can say, Hey, I want to make more money. Okay, well let’s do this evaluation on you, figure out where you’re at, and then show them a clear path for success. But most companies train six to 12 weeks, and that is it. The employee, we train 52 weeks a year. So training is about communicating. If you’re not communicating with your staff, it’s very hard to train them.

John (12:26): So we’re kind of getting into measuring. Everybody realizes they need to measure, they need to have kpis. Rarely do people do it or use it to manage by. Are there performance indicators that we absolutely all need to have? How can we get better at using the data to make decisions?

Tony (12:46): You have to know your numbers. So every company I go into, I can’t tell you how many companies I walk into, they don’t have a p&l. I’m like, how are you running a company without a p&l? You don’t know your numbers. So the biggest problem, and it’s so prevalent, you want to believe it, but the biggest thing is going into the companies KPIs are only as good as the person actually using them. I like to say, a lot of times meetings are useless. It’s what you do after the meeting, bringing KPIs and bringing solutions. Anybody can bring a problem to a meeting, but can you bring the solution and how we’re solving things going forward? KPIs follow systems. If your kpis aren’t working now you’re recalibrating your business. So I love KPIs. I mean, I use ’em in every business I do. We have weekly meetings with all of our top level managers every single week, and they are forced to bring it to the meeting. You better come with something. And a lot of companies don’t even invest time in meetings. They think they’re a waste. Oh my God, that’s all we do is have meetings. It’s because the meetings are useless. They’re not bringing enough to the meetings, they’re not holding their people accountable.

John (13:47): I love in marketing, not only kpis, but just every step of the funnel, so to speak, or something we’re doing. I mean, a lot of times people go, oh, this isn’t working. We’re not getting enough leads. It’s like, no, this one little place is not working. And if we fix that and we’ll fix everything. But if we just throw out the entire process because we’re not measuring happens all the time. So if somebody’s thinking, gosh, I want to scale, I’m stuck. You mentioned stuck from the stage give. Here’s my advice for how to get started.

Tony (14:18): Oh, for sure. If it’s a new business, I mean if they’re stuck, a lot of times what I go in and I analyze what they’re doing, it’s typically a trust issue or they have corporate fatigue. Entrepreneurship is the loneliest question in the world, and it’s because we’re afraid to talk to other entrepreneurs and we’re not getting out there and explaining. But if we realize we’re all in the same boat, there’s so many fundamentals that I go through when I’m coaching a CEO or an entrepreneur. It’s not just one. It’s typically, so if I teach eight fundamentals, eight modules that I teach, it might be delegation, it might be systems the next month, it might be marketing after that. Are you an experience creator? What is the experience you’re delivering to your customer? I’d love to say it’s a cookie-cutter system, but it’s never that way because every entrepreneur at different stages in their career are suffering from a different fundamental that they didn’t perfect well enough or they want to grow. And if you want to go from 5 million to 10 million, you probably have to retool everything in your company. So what I do a lot of times is I reverse-engineer. Every single company I go into, I say, where are you at today? Every process that got you to this point, because we have to redo everything to get you to the next level.

John (15:29): Yeah. You talk about the startup. To me, the sadder one is somebody that’s been in business 16, 18 years, they’re making a salary. There’s no joy in it anymore. To me, that’s the one that’s the saddest, quite frankly.

Tony (15:42): It happens all the time too. All

John (15:44): The time. A lot of jobs just get boarded up called companies after they just run out of steam, right? Yeah. So alright, let’s bring out the crystal ball. What should we be looking future-wise trends, things we should be having on our radar as we talked a little bit about ai, but what’s next?

Tony (16:02): Yeah, I think we talked about technology, but I mean it’s rapidly changing the business environment, especially in the marketing. I know you do a lot of marketing changing. Instant gratification is right there for everybody. And AI is making that even worse. We thought the cell phones were bad. Now you really have instant gratification. So it’s really adapting to the marketplace. Watch the news, watch the trends in the world and making sure you’re adapting your business to it because you’ll be left in the dust. And it’s seriously a big problem right now, but there’s still a point where humans like human interaction and don’t forget that. So making sure whatever, if you’re selling widgets or you’re selling jewelry, you’re selling whatever you’re doing, that human interaction is very essential because even though we’re in the people business, customers are our people, but they do want things faster. And I think they have to move very agile. And if you’re not focused on that and you’re thinking the old way’s going to work, it’s just not going to happen.

John (17:00): Well, you’ve been doing this for a while. I’ve been doing this for a long while. You constantly, you stay in this long enough, you see the pendulum swing back and forth, right? I mean, it’s like everybody’s into technology or social media or whatever the thing of the day is, and then all of a sudden direct mail works better than ever. It happens so often. I mean, you can’t just say, this is it. It’s like every 60 days, this is, it is going to be something new.

Tony (17:24): My daughter’s in peril. She’s many skirts are coming back.

John (17:29): Yeah, no question. I was just in Europe last week and they were in Brussels. They’re all wearing hot pants. So remember that from the seventies, right? So, well, Tony, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. You want to invite people where they might connect with you, find out more about your work,

Tony (17:47): Go to Tonydsilvestro.com and my whole website’s there, come see me, love to give you a copy of my book, come see me. And then just, if I can help entrepreneurs all over the world, that’s my goal.

John (17:58): Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by, and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.