nadosi.com

John Jantsch (00:01.89)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Duncan Wardle. He’s the former head of innovation and creativity at Disney. Duncan played a pivotal role in fostering innovation across Imagineering, Lucasfilm, Marvel, Pixar, and Disney parks, crafting enchanting new storylines and experiences. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today, The Imagination Emporium.

Creative recipes for innovation. So Duncan, welcome to the show.

Duncan (00:34.324)

Thank you, thanks very much for having me.

John Jantsch (00:36.074)

So one of my viewers, listeners, not viewers, won’t be able to know this, but one of my favorite characters is Goofy. You’ve got him right there behind you.

Duncan (00:46.794)

Yeah, so yes, these are hand-painted. It’s not an illustration. Yeah, they were created a few years ago now.

John Jantsch (00:55.106)

Very, very cool. So there was a book I read right when I was getting started, actually, that was very influential on me. was written by Peter Drucker and one of the comments in there was that he said that the only two things in business that matter are marketing and innovation. Everything else is a cost. I think a lot of people quote that and I’ve heard that phrase many times, but I’m wondering, like,

If we asked 10 people what innovation actually was at a company, I think we would get maybe 11 or 12 definitions. So how do you frame the idea of innovation? mean, it’s very large concept.

Duncan (01:32.57)

Yeah, crystal clear. Creativity is the ability to have an idea. We can all do that. We do it every day. Innovation is the ability to get it done. The challenge for most of us is the more experience, the more expertise we have, the more reasons we know why the new idea won’t work. So we constantly shoot it down. I call it our river of thinking. And it’s very fast and very wide and very allowing you and me to make quick and informed decisions. But in the last four years, we’ve seen global pandemics.

John Jantsch (01:39.394)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice.

Duncan (01:58.762)

We’ve seen Generation Z entering the workplace but doesn’t want to work for corporate America. We’ve got artificial intelligence entering the marketplace. And what was the fourth one? There’s four of them. Global pandemic, Generation Z entering the workplace, artificial intelligence. Doesn’t matter. The world’s changed, right? And it’s changed irrevocably. We can’t go back to thinking the way we thought four years ago. And so, you know, Disney, I tried four models of innovation. Model number one.

I hired somebody who knew what they were doing. I said, make me look good. That was an agency. And to a certain extent, they did. They were never around for execution. And they certainly weren’t going to show me how they did what they did, or they were worried I wouldn’t hire them again. Model number two, we’re creating an innovation team. Duncan will be in charge. What could possibly go wrong? Well, outside of legal, who does legal work? Outside of marketing, who does marketing work? Nobody. So when you create an innovation team, you subliminally just told everybody else you’re off the hook.

We tried an accelerator program which created some level of access enabling us to partner with some young tech startups and bring some new technology to market. But we had failed in our overall goal, which was set by the CEO of Disney, was how might we embed a culture of innovation and creativity into everybody’s DNA. So I set out to create a toolkit that has three principles. It takes the BS out of innovation and makes it less intimidating to normal, hardworking people.

Make creativity tangible for those people who are uncomfortable with ambiguity and gray. Fun, more importantly, make the process fun. Give people tools they choose to use when you and I are not around.

John Jantsch (03:31.062)

All right, so and I’m sure you hear this all the time. I know you’ll have a great answer for this, but what do do in those organizations or individuals who we know there are lots of them, but say, I’m just not creative. Yeah.

Duncan (03:44.488)

Yeah, I disagree. I’m sorry. Look, let me ask you question. When you were a small boy, what was your favorite toy?

John Jantsch (03:54.094)

Probably a stick.

Duncan (03:55.594)

See what why because the stick was your lightsaber. That’s why it was your wand It was anything you wanted it to be and we were all born creative with an amazing image when you were given a gift for a holiday and it came in an enormous box and it took you ages to take the toy out of the box what do you spend the rest of week playing with Yeah, the box right it was your rocket it was your force it was your cart It was anything you wanted to be till you went to the number one killer of creativity Education and the first thing your first grade teacher told you to do was don’t forget to color in between the lines

John Jantsch (04:10.798)

The fort.

John Jantsch (04:20.044)

Right.

Duncan (04:24.586)

Small children, they’re very curious. ask why, why, why, why, why again? Because they’re seeking the core consumer truth. They’re after the insight for innovation. If I were to survey 5,000 people and ask them why they go to Disney on holiday, the number one response I’ll get is we go for the new attractions. But that’s not strictly true, is it? So if I were to rely just on my data, I’d go spend $250 million on a capital investment strategy. But if I pause for a moment and I act childlike, not childish, and say, well, why do you go for the new attractions? Well, now I like the classics. Why do you like the classics? Well, I like it’s a small world.

Why do you like it? a small world. Why remember music? God, no, not the music. Why the music? Where’s my mum’s favourite ride we used to go every summer? Why is that important to you 20 years later? I’ll take my daughter now. Boom. There’s your insight for innovation. Call consumer truth. It’s got nothing to do with the capital investment strategy and everything to do with that person’s personal memory and nostalgia. But then we go to the number one killer of curiosity, education. And the next thing we’re taught to do is to stop asking why, because there’s only one right answer. Here comes artificial intelligence, right?

You think we used to laugh at the blue collar workers? Well, guess what? They’ll be laughing at the white collar workers now. But I’ve been working with Google on their DeepMind project, which is their AI project. And I asked the lead engineer what I said, how the hell am I going to compete with this? You know, what will be the most employable skill sets the next five to 10 years? And she said, that’s easy. The ones that will be the hardest for her to program into AI. I said, well, what are those? says, the ones with which you were born, imagination, creativity, curiosity, empathy, and intuition. But they’re drummed out of us by the time we’re 18.

That’s the challenge.

John Jantsch (05:51.81)

Yeah, Of course, having some handy set of plumbing skills will become very necessary too though, It is.

Duncan (06:00.52)

No seriously hands-on workers absolutely fine. look I set out here’s why people say why do you write a book. Let me ask you quite an honest question here. When you see a business book in an office physically where is the book?

John Jantsch (06:15.022)

laying on a desk.

Duncan (06:16.616)

Yeah, there you go. it’s on the coffee table. It’s on the bookshelf. I’m going to get to it tomorrow, but my boss needs this now, so I actually never read it. I have good intentions to read it, but I don’t. So I thought, OK, how do I make it more accessible to people who’ve got other things to do? I thought, what nonfiction book have I ever read where I could read one page today and know exactly what I was going to do and not worry about the rest of the book today? My mum’s cookbook. You want shepherd’s pie? You got to pay 67. So the contents page is designed for busy people. It says, have you ever been to a brainstorm where nothing ever happened?

Go to page 67. Don’t know how to find insights for innovation? Go to page 42. Work in a heavily regulated industry? Go to page 67. So it’s designed to be very accessible, but it’s also designed to appeal to what I call the three sensory learning styles. So let me ask you a question. May I ask you to close your eyes for just a moment?

How many days are there in September? I would ask you to keep your eyes closed and tell me how you knew, how you remembered, how you learned or what you could see with your eyes closed right now. Bingo, you can open your eyes. 30 % of the people will recite the rhyme. 30 days has September, blah, blah. No, it’s true. And so they just told me they learn by listening. They probably read a lot. It’s an auditory style. How do I know that? Because they were six when they learned it. How did they remember it? Because they heard it. Another 30%.

John Jantsch (07:07.502)

30.

John Jantsch (07:15.626)

see a calendar.

John Jantsch (07:21.856)

Yeah, yeah.

Duncan (07:33.502)

Put the knuckles together and start counting the knuckles. January, February, March, April, May, June, June. Those are kinesthetic learners. By the way, John, you were taught both, but you don’t remember either because that’s not your preferred learning style. You’re the majority of the audience. You learn by seeing. You represent 40 percent of the audience. So I thought, OK, how do I create a book that’s not a book? I want it to be a toolkit. I want it to be fun, but I want it to be purposeful. I want it to appeal to all three learning styles. So it has QR codes embedded with each chapter with Spotify playlists for auditory learners.

It has animated videos in each chapter where Duncan is now an animated character. I pop out of the book with a bunch of other characters I’ve created for the visual learners and teach you how to use the tools and for our kinesthetic learners starting, I think today, but maybe in a couple of days from now, the QR code on the back of the book will actually take you directly to the very first ever fully integrated artificial intelligence book.

Why? Because I’ve never done it before. That’s why. So you will be able to ask the book questions and through chat. It’ll answer you through WhatsApp. So you might say, how do I use the tool on page 67? And it’ll answer you. But you could also say, how do I use the tool on page 67 to develop a marketing campaign that’s more of a mercy to experience for my brand? And the book will answer you.

John Jantsch (08:50.158)

Who published this book?

Duncan (08:52.266)

You know what, Amplify

John Jantsch (08:54.798)

So I’ve written several books with major publishers and I’m envisioning the meeting where you described what this book was going to be like.

Duncan (09:04.2)

I kept telling the publisher, we thought, he said it’s a book. I said, hell no, it’s not. It’s a toolkit. By the way, I want to give it away for free. Needless to say, the publisher had other ideas. I still want to give it away for students because we are killing the most employable skill sets in the next decade.

John Jantsch (09:19.502)

Yeah. So if you’re going to work with an organization that, and again, I don’t know if that’s a service you offer consulting, but if you were going to work with an organization, I mean, what are some of the mindsets they would have, you would try to get them to change the habits you would get them to change that would really make this come to life?

Duncan (09:35.686)

Here’s the first one and this is particularly for leaders, right? Because again, the more experience we have, the more reasons we know why the new idea won’t work. So John, you and I have been tasked with coming up with an idea for a birthday party, for a Harry Potter birthday party. Are you familiar with Harry Potter?

John Jantsch (09:53.166)

I’m not a, yes, I’m familiar, but I’m not a junkie.

Duncan (09:59.378)

No, but have you seen a couple of films? OK, good. So I’m going to come at you with some ideas for a Harry Potter party. I’d like you to start each and every response with the following two words. No, because they’ll be the first two words you use and you’ll tell me why not. I was thinking of coming to your house, putting a sorting hat outside the front door, having all the good people get the Gryffindor party, but all the bad people get the Slytherin party.

John Jantsch (10:01.079)

I have.

John Jantsch (10:20.428)

No, because everybody just wants to play Quidditch.

Duncan (10:24.921)

right, I tell you what then, we’ll give everybody a broomstick and they can go running around the back garden looking like idiots and work the snitch to be acting on a drone.

John Jantsch (10:29.806)

No, because they can’t really fly.

Duncan (10:34.406)

Alright, fair point. I’ll tell you what then, let’s say that we’ll bring them all indoors and we’ll have a magic potions room where we can all drink something that turns us into something totally freaky.

John Jantsch (10:42.766)

no, because, there’s actually a giant animal in the back closet that would probably eat everyone.

Duncan (10:53.898)

Fair point. tell you what then, what if we just showed the movies? We’ll put them on your TV screen and we’ll serve butterbeer and No because, come on. So let me ask you question. When somebody’s constantly no becauseing you, how does that make you feel?

John Jantsch (11:00.14)

that’s perfect. No, because there might be somebody allergic to popcorn.

John Jantsch (11:13.432)

frustrated.

Duncan (11:14.364)

Okay, I would call it business as usual. Let me ask you a question. Do you think our idea was getting bigger as we were going or was it getting smaller? Which way was it headed?

John Jantsch (11:16.578)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:21.486)

It was, we were down to watching the movies. It was getting smaller.

Duncan (11:25.48)

Yeah, all right. Let’s start again. Are you familiar with Star Wars? OK, so I’m going to come at you with some Star Wars ideas. Unlike Harry Potter, where you started the response every single time with no, because this time I’d like you to start every single response with the words yes and and we’ll just build on it together. So I was thinking of coming to your house, getting into the kitchen, painting it black, turning it into the Death Star canteen and we could have a food and wine festival and half of the boo and tattoo.

John Jantsch (11:29.518)

Yes.

John Jantsch (11:50.632)

yeah, yes, and let’s add stormtroopers.

Duncan (11:53.462)

yes, and yeah, we can have a cosplay party. All the tall people could come as Darth Vader and all the little people would come dressed as Ewoks.

John Jantsch (11:55.993)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And we’ve got to have Yoda, don’t we?

Duncan (12:03.121)

yes, and we can have the force. Everybody get a glow in the dark lightsaber full of their favorite alcoholic liquid.

John Jantsch (12:10.198)

Yes, and what about Darth Vader? Could he appear?

Duncan (12:14.362)

yes, and we could have Harrison Ford. We could bring back, yeah, or even the dead celebrities could come back via hologram and we could take them all on your corporate jet down to Disneyland to see the new galaxy’s edge.

John Jantsch (12:24.526)

Yes, and why not invite George Lucas?

Duncan (12:27.176)

Alright, so we’ll stop there. So a lot more laughter, a lot more energy. Most of us became Italian for the first time today, waving our arms. This time around, bigger or smaller.

John Jantsch (12:31.608)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:37.432)

Well, it kept getting much larger.

Duncan (12:39.434)

You can always take a big idea and value engineer it down. Pretty hard to turn a small one into a big one. Far more importantly, we work inside big organizations, we work inside small organizations, we have colleagues and constituents and clients to bring on board with our idea. By the time you and I just finished building the idea together, whose idea was it by the time we finished?

John Jantsch (12:58.145)

well was totally mine.

Duncan (12:59.53)

I would argue ours, John, thank you. So here’s the thing, two little magical words, yes and, have the power to turn a small idea into a big one really quickly. But far more importantly, have the power to transfer my idea, which never goes anywhere inside an organization, to our idea and accelerate its opportunity to get done. Just remind yourselves, I know you’re leaders, I know you’ve got responsibilities and quarterly results and deadlines. Just remind ourselves, we’re not green lighting this idea for execution today. We are merely green housing it together using yes.

If you take nothing away from listening to today’s podcast, don’t let the words know because be the first two words out of your mouth when somebody comes at you with a new idea. They have made genius two days from now, two weeks from now. You’ll never hear it. Your job as a leader is just that you’ll get to the know because but don’t start there. The other thing that I tried to teach is playfulness and I’ll tell you for why. Can I ask you to close your eyes? Where are you and what are you doing when you get your best ideas?

John Jantsch (13:47.405)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:59.438)

Definitely outside.

Duncan (14:01.768)

OK, so you can open your eyes. I’ve done this with up to 20,000 people. You’re here. Shower, bathroom, jogging, walking, driving, commuting, gym. Do you know how many people say at work? Nobody. Not one person ever writes down at work. Well, why not? Close your eyes again. Picture that last argument you were in. Bit of a shouting match. You’re angry at them. They’re angry at you. Now you turn to walk away from that argument. You’re 10, 20, 30 seconds away. You’re about a minute away from the argument and…

John Jantsch (14:12.142)

the

Duncan (14:30.026)

What just popped into your brain totally spontaneously the second you turned to walk away from that argument? What was it? Well, you should have said the killer one-liner, that one perfect, beautiful lie. You wish you’d choose to the argument, but you didn’t, did you? No, never did. Why not? Because when we’re in an argument, our brain is moving at a thousand miles an hour defending ourselves. When we’re at work, we’re doing emails and presentations and reports and we hear ourselves say, the number one barrier to innovation, I don’t have time to think. And when you say, don’t have time to think, you’re in the brain state science calls beta.

John Jantsch (14:34.702)

what I should have said.

Nope.

Duncan (14:58.57)

where the door between conscious and subconscious brain is firmly closed. When that door is closed, you only have access to your conscious brain. That is 13 % of the capacity of your brain. 87 % of the capacity of your brain is your subconscious brain. Every creative problem you’ve ever solved, every innovation you’ve seen is back here to serve as unrelated stimulus. But when the door is shut, you don’t have access to it. So how do I move you from there metaphorically and place you back in the shower where it is when you have your best ideas? You can still make an informed decision.

But still have a big idea that brain state is known as alpha. I call it amazing alpha. The best brain state for creativity at work. How do I get you there? By being playful. What do I do? I run an energizer. Well, what’s that? It’s a 60 second exercise. What am I doing? I’m making you laugh. Why am I making you laugh? Because the moment I hear laughter, I know that I’ve just opened the door between your conscious and subconscious brain. When we ask who are the most creative people you’ve ever met, everybody always says children. And I always hear people say, we don’t have the resources. You say,

Who are the most creative people? Children. how much money they got? none. Now, I don’t expect people to be playful every minute of every day. Life would be great fun, but we wouldn’t get much work done. I do expect you, particularly as leaders, to be playful at the right time.

John Jantsch (16:07.18)

Yeah, you know, I read something recently about this idea of why children, you know, are able to have just such rich imaginations and such creativity. and it, well, the person concluded that, that actually, you know, young children, particularly, are halfway in a fantasy world, you know, and, we sort of the school and everything sort of beats that out of them says, no, this is reality. But, but it’s an interesting thought that,

Duncan (16:16.778)

I haven’t gone to school yet.

John Jantsch (16:34.778)

They’re able to be so creative because they really live between reality and fantasy.

Duncan (16:39.922)

Yeah, very true. Very true. No, it’s true. Education is killing the most employable skill sets of the next decade. The future of education is gaming. Education will not exist as it exists today. Why? Because it deserves to die. Why? Because your children are learning the same thing I learned at school but I went in the 70s. That’s why.

John Jantsch (16:47.694)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:56.483)

Yeah. Yeah. Multiplication tables are not going to be really a necessary skill, are they? So I want to talk a little more about, you mentioned it briefly, but I think there’s a lot more to this idea of river of thinking. Can you kind of talk about that metaphor and how it both informs and gets in the way?

Duncan (17:12.38)

Yeah, we all got stuck in it. You know, I worked at Disney for 30 years and I was helping Lucas, Lucas Films, Marvel and Pixar have new ideas. But the challenge is when you’re talking to anybody who’s worked in one particular line of business for a long time is they become so entrenched in what I call their river of thinking. So let me explain how that or the danger of a river of thinking. You and I are going to go into business together and we’re going to open a car wash. Tell me if you were three or four essential ingredients we must have in our car wash.

John Jantsch (17:41.454)

customers, water, employees.

Duncan (17:42.718)

What else?

Employees, customers, employees and water. OK, you and I are actually, are venture capitalists. We’ve been invited to open a brand new franchise of auto spas. Who are a spa? Now close your eyes. What would you what have you seen in the spa? What would you like to see in your spa? What could we have in the spa?

John Jantsch (18:06.926)

Great music. Very, very comfortable, fancy chairs.

Duncan (18:08.714)

Okay, what else?

Duncan (18:13.94)

Okay.

Duncan (18:18.442)

What else have you seen? There we go. So you can open your eyes. I said car wash straight into your river of thinking, right? Water brushes, so vacuum dryer. I said auto spa, which is about the same product. We’ve got masseuses, we’ve got many pedis. So this tool is brilliant. Walt Disney created it. He said we will not have any customers in our park. We will only have guests. We will not have any employees. We’ll only have cast members. And with that simple re-expression of the relationship between the customer and the employees, the cast member, the guests.

John Jantsch (18:18.774)

Aromas aromas. Yeah

John Jantsch (18:25.32)

Yeah.

Duncan (18:47.514)

everybody got out of their river of thinking created this culture of hospitality. Our river of thinking is this, how might we make more money? How might we make our quarterly results? If we continue to ask that question, we’d put the gate price up at Walt Disney World by three percent, you’d have complained and we’d have made our quarterly results. You don’t get to iterate in a post pandemic world. You innovate or you die. So instead of asking the question we ask ourselves every day, because that’s our river of thinking, how might we make more money? We reversed the challenge and said,

How might we solve the biggest consumer pain point? Everybody knew what it was. It was called standing line. And I said, what if there were no lines? Didn’t know how to solve it at the time. And we looked outside of our industry for an insight for innovation. Most of the insights for innovation come from looking outside of your industry. It’s called Where Else? It’s in the book. And we noticed there was a very small pharmacy in Tokyo, Japan, using RFID technology to enable people not to stand in line. Welcome to the world of Disney’s Magic Band. Does it come in red or gray in the mail?

Of it does. Why? Because you’re like, right, the Star Wars edition. Does it come with matching merchandise? Of course it does. This is my room key today. I don’t check in or check out of a Disney Resort Hotel. It’s my theme park tickets, my reservations for my character meet and greets and my rides. Now it’s morphing towards the phone. I can pull for merchandise and have it sent to my hotel room or house, depending on how many times I touch it. I can order my food through my smartphone, walk into the restaurant when I want to walk in, sit at the table I want to sit at. The food comes fresh to me. Had we started by saying, how might we make more money? Yeah, we’d have made 3%.

but by reversing the challenge and asking how might we solve and getting out of our river of thinking, say, how might we solve the biggest consumer pain point? The average guest at Walt Disney World today has two hours free time they didn’t have six years ago each and every day. What does that result in? Record intent to recommend, record intent to return and record revenues. What do people do with their free time in Disney parks? They spend a bucket load of money.

John Jantsch (20:29.58)

Yeah. All right. Buy more stuff. Absolutely. Well, Duncan, this has been a fascinating interview. I’m not sure if you interviewed me or I interviewed you, but nonetheless, I think the listeners will be the better for it. I really appreciate you taking a moment to stop by. there someplace you’d invite people to find out more about your work and the imagination?

Duncan (20:40.906)

you

Duncan (20:54.228)

Well, they can normally find me in the Lammon Flag pub in Covent Garden, but if I’m not there, they could go to the imagination emporium dot com or Duncan Wardle.

John Jantsch (21:01.762)

Well, again, I appreciate you taking a moment to share and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road. Likewise.

Duncan (21:07.388)

Nice to meet you.

Why Two Weeks Notice Is Hurting Workplace Culture

Why Two Weeks Notice Is Hurting Workplace Culture written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Robert Glazer

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Robert Glazer, founder of Acceleration Partners, a global partner marketing agency, and author of the bestselling book Rethinking Two Weeks Notice. Robert is an expert in workplace culture, employee retention, and leadership. His work challenges outdated corporate practices and offers fresh strategies for creating thriving workplace environments.

During our conversation, Robert shared powerful insights on why the traditional “two weeks’ notice” practice is no longer effective and how companies can replace it with the Open Transition Program. By fostering psychological safety, improving communication, and rethinking job exit strategies, businesses can enhance employee retention, protect workplace culture, and build long-term loyalty.

Robert Glazer’s fresh perspective on employee transitions offers actionable strategies for improving employee retention, workplace culture, and corporate reputation. By replacing outdated practices like the two weeks’ notice with the Open Transition Program, businesses can create a supportive, loyal, and high-performing work environment.

Key Takeaways:

Why Two Weeks’ Notice Is Outdated
The traditional two weeks’ notice creates rushed transitions, strains relationships, and disrupts workplace culture. This outdated rule often leaves both employers and employees feeling dissatisfied and unsupported during career transitions.
The Open Transition Program: A Better Solution
Robert introduced the Open Transition Program, a proactive approach that encourages open conversations about career transitions. By providing a structured and supportive process, employees can leave on better terms, ensuring smoother transitions for all parties.
Psychological Safety Is the Foundation of Loyalty
Building psychological safety within the workplace allows employees to share their career aspirations and challenges without fear. This creates an environment of trust, where transitions can be managed with transparency and respect.
Strengthening Workplace Culture Through Better Transitions
Employee transitions are a crucial but often overlooked aspect of workplace culture. A thoughtful approach to resignations and career changes demonstrates respect for employees and reinforces a culture of trust and collaboration.
The Long-Term Benefits of Positive Transitions
Companies that implement better job exit strategies often see long-term benefits, including alumni referrals, Boomerang employees, and stronger client relationships. Treating employees well at the end of their tenure creates lifelong advocates for the brand.
Replacing Resentment with Respect
Traditional resignation practices can leave both employees and employers feeling resentful. The Open Transition Program focuses on respect, ensuring that employees leave on a positive note while protecting the company’s reputation.
The Cost of Ignoring Exit Strategies
Ignoring the importance of employee transitions can lead to high turnover, damaged client relationships, and a negative reputation. Implementing modern job exit strategies can mitigate these risks and foster long-term success.

Chapters:

[00:00] Opening
[00:34] Introduction to Robert Glazer
[01:20] Problems with the Traditional Two Weeks Notice
[03:45] Replacing Two Weeks Notice with the Open Transition Program
[05:30] Addressing Employee Performance Issues Early and Constructively
[10:04] Organizational Culture and Open Transition Programs
[17:24] Structured Employee Transitions and Client Retention

More About Robert Glazer:

Check out Robert Glazer’s Website
Connect with Robert Glazer on LinkedIn
Read Rethinking Two Weeks’ Notice: Changing the Way Employees Leave Companies for the Better by Robert Glazer

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.705)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Robert Glazer. He’s the founder and chairman of the board of Acceleration Partners, a global partner marketing agency and the recipient of numerous industry and company culture awards, including Glassdoor’s Employees Choice Awards two years in a row. He’s the author of the inspirational newsletter, Friday Forward. Everybody should subscribe and the number one Wall Street.

Robert Glazer (00:08.144)

Thank

John Jantsch (00:30.571)

journal USA Today and international bestselling author of five books. We’re going to talk about his latest today, Rethinking Two Weeks Notice, Changing the Way Employees Leave Companies for the Better. So Robert, welcome back to the show.

Robert Glazer (00:31.322)

Bye.

Robert Glazer (00:44.548)

John, thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (00:46.185)

So, the enemy is two weeks notice the standard practice of, of, Hey, I’m, I got a better offer. I’m giving you my two weeks notice or the other way around. You’re not working out here. You got two weeks notice. So that kind of deal. So, so why is that bad?

Robert Glazer (00:57.54)

Yeah, here’s two weeks severance. Yeah.

Robert Glazer (01:03.824)

There’s two problems that we have. Well, I’m a big fan of psychology and cognitive dissonance. And so the left side of our brains knows that we’re not in lifetime employment situation anymore. We don’t have pensions, people are going to work forever. And yet when people then leave our organization, the right side of the brain, we treat it more like the end of a marriage than the end of a professional sports contract, like this huge betrayal or otherwise. So we’re just not reconciling.

these two things and it produces bad outcomes. You have employees who leave employers and their managers and their mentors with a bad taste in their mouth. what they’re told by their parents, two weeks notice. That’s what you do, it’s respectful. But if you mentored someone for three years, you trusted them, you gave them a lot of rope and they were out a little bit and had doctor’s appointments and now they’re leaving in two weeks.

John Jantsch (01:44.791)

Yeah. Right.

Robert Glazer (01:55.874)

You don’t realize, I mean, I get a lot of back channel references over the years. Everything is layout. You’re going for a job, two jobs from now and someone reaches out and they’re like, yeah, John, like, I just remember how you left, right? And so endings really matter. If you’re planning a conference, your last speaker is really important. It’s sort of, it’s everything that people remember. And then similarly for the company, particularly in a service business, know, clients hate account turnover.

John Jantsch (02:10.486)

Yes.

John Jantsch (02:14.433)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (02:22.436)

rushing to get a new person, all these things. it just really is suboptimal. It’s just an outdated process. Most people just don’t know what to replace it with.

John Jantsch (02:30.423)

Yeah.

Right. Yeah. It’s funny. I, you know, in marketing circles, I mean, I pay a lot of attention to testimonials and reviews and things like that. And it’s amazing how really the perception that somebody has of the brand is not the brand, but Rusty, you know, the guy that fixed their boiler, you know, or whatever.

Robert Glazer (02:50.832)

Look, anyone listening to this, if you are either personally or professionally, whether it’s accounting firm or your marketing agency, there is nothing that hurts the reputation more of a professional services firm than account turnover. It’s the thing that puts it at risk. If you’ve ever been with a brand and you get three different managers in 12 months, you’re like, I’m out. I don’t want to do this anymore.

John Jantsch (03:03.501)

John Jantsch (03:07.777)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was too much work to get in a rhythm. all right. So I’m just going to jump right into your concept of what would replace it. The open transition program OTP. You got to love a framework. So Robert, let’s just go there. We’re going to talk about bits of it, but maybe set the table. What is, what is your, theory about replacing two weeks notice?

Robert Glazer (03:12.89)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (03:35.408)

Yeah. So, so it’s not just the theory because we practiced it for over 10 years and, and, but it is a theory, but it’s also, and I’ve had a lot of other leaders just with little bits and pieces who wanted to be better reached out. And look, we were building a great culture and just the two week notice thing felt antithetical to that. So we tried this concept of a transition program that said, look, when you’re ready to leave, we’ve created psychological safety, come and have an open, honest conversation with us. We will never walk anyone out the door that day if they come and have it. And likewise,

John Jantsch (03:41.185)

You

Robert Glazer (04:04.336)

our managers are gonna have honest conversations with you. And when we kind of sense that something’s not going right, we’ll see if we can fix it. And most problems, if you actually get to them earlier, they don’t become irrecoverable. If you wait long enough, then everyone’s pissed and they can’t get it. It almost doesn’t even matter what the original problem was. Now you’ve got this whole vicious trust cycle and stuff going on.

John Jantsch (04:21.921)

Yeah. Yeah.

Robert Glazer (04:26.266)

So we said, look, it’s okay, we’ll enter you into a transition program and maybe that’s 90 days, but you’re working here and you’re starting to interview and you’re communicating with your boss about that. And maybe our HR teams helping you with your resume. And we want you to be a productive alumni member. When it’s time to go, we want that to be a good outcome. And we’d rather do that and have less surprises and pay you to work here, understanding we’re gonna get some diminished capacity.

paying you severance or paying you kind of not to work or go away and blowing the thing up at the end.

John Jantsch (05:01.557)

Yeah, there’s a couple things you said there. I want to circle back to that idea that most problems are created by because we just don’t deal with them because we’re like, I, you know, an employee gets fired, but I should have done that three months ago, you know, kind of, kind of thing. And so it just really deteriorates. So, I think that’s, that’s, I think people have to realize that before they can start thinking about the open transition program, right?

Robert Glazer (05:26.768)

Right. is psychological safety is that there’s four components, psychological safety, open communication, mutual respect and commitment to be mutually beneficial outcomes. Psychological safety is the foundation of this. With it, you can have some good outcomes. it’s, we’re recording this in December. John, like if I am firing you this week, cause I am at my wits end where I was going to put you on a pip and you’re with your wits end. What the issue was probably emerged in March and.

John Jantsch (05:31.095)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (05:55.288)

If I had really, and it emerges some performance problems, but this is the issue. Like this is like Western medicine versus Eastern. If three people have a headache and I give them a Tylenol, it might help the headache, but one is dehydrated, one’s allergic to gluten and one has a brain tumor, right? Tylenol is not a cure for that. So I talk in this book around digging to the root and there’s three common roots. Problems the employee needs to fix, problems the employer can fix and wants to fix, and then problems that.

they’re not gonna fix. So I start noticing you’re a little off in March and instead of saying, John, you gotta do better or whatever, I’m like, John, like what’s going on? And you confide in me, because I’m your manager and you might say one of three totally different things. One, you lost your childcare and so you’re really tired and distracted or you’re going through a separation and so you’re just not there. And so was like, look, John, I can help with this, we can change your hours, but this is on you to fix. And generally, if you repair that problem,

your satisfaction with work and your performance is gonna improve. The second one you say, look, the last three people that we hired were at a higher level me, higher salary, I’m doing the same work, I was promised a raise years ago, like I’m just getting really frustrated, right? And if I look at that and I say, geez, John’s right, like we kind of overlooked him. I might say he’s not and that’s a different discussion, you he wants a but he’s right. So we give him the promotion he deserves, he gets a new manager and boom, it recovers.

John Jantsch (07:13.099)

Yeah. Right.

Robert Glazer (07:21.616)

The third one, the one not gonna fix, John comes and says, look, I know you told me a remote only company and I thought I wanted that, but I’m just, missing an office. And you know, that leads to a discussion like, hey John, we’re not getting offices. Like, so why don’t we help you find a better opportunity? So each of those circumstances might’ve showed up in a performance problem, but they have totally different roots and totally different solutions. And that’s why this program can have a good outcome. If I lean in early and we’re doing this transition in the third case,

you know, in July, that’s different because one of the common objections is like, you can’t do this, people are toxic, all this stuff. like, look, John’s toxic in December because this has been going on for six months and now I’m pissed at him and he’s pissed at me and otherwise. the other objection, well, people will, they’ll steal and they’ll do this and people when they’re leaving all this stuff. And to that, I would say if you have a lot of people that are constantly acting toxic and stealing stuff as they’re on the way out of your company,

John Jantsch (08:01.569)

the

John Jantsch (08:10.229)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (08:21.464)

Either you are really doing a terrible job in hiring or there’s something about your culture that’s making them that way. And either of those scenarios require a little bit of a deeper look.

John Jantsch (08:27.692)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:33.005)

Yeah, and that’s the real common idea behind the practice, right? It’s like, well, once we decided to fire this person, we like take away their computer, get them out the door, right? Because they’re going to do something bad.

Robert Glazer (08:41.68)

Even before that, I think in the three months when you know you have to fire John and you don’t, because John’s a super nice and likable guy, but he’s just not doing well, you start to distance him and push him away and sort of make him out to be a bad guy so that it makes it easier for you when you fire a bad guy. This would advocate the opposite. Like John, we talked about this John a few months ago, John, come into my office in July. Like John, I love you.

John Jantsch (08:45.195)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:59.467)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Robert Glazer (09:06.81)

but you know that you can’t be a 50 % quota on our sales team for four quarters in a row. This isn’t working. Do you wanna be in sales? What do you wanna do? Can we help you do something different? You can lean into the relationship while holding the performance component there, but I think it’s better to go that way than to, your brain can’t, this is cognitive distance 101. It can’t handle that John’s a good guy and a bad worker, so I have to make him a bad guy so that I feel better.

John Jantsch (09:11.117)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (09:24.777)

Yeah. Right.

John Jantsch (09:32.653)

Let’s use a Susie for our example instead of John. Okay. So, so you have, you have a company that, helps, people create partnerships that are beneficial to their businesses. that’s, you’ve written books about that, which is a very common thing for an author to do, to, and, and.

Robert Glazer (09:36.046)

Yeah, so you know, you’re not the first person to say that, but the next example will be Suzy.

John Jantsch (10:00.801)

business owner to do to write a book that supports their, what they do, what their core mission is. You’ve written a couple, what I would call people ops books, that probably on the S on the very, very surface, you know, don’t seem like they would support your business objective. And yet here we are. So why, why, is this topic? So are you so passionate about this topic of people?

Robert Glazer (10:23.28)

It’s a great question. I think yeah, we are a marketing agency, but we’re also a services firm. And after 20 years of building a services firm, you can be interchangeable with a psychologist, right? It is every issue is a people issue. There’s never a broken widget. There’s never a broken press or a shipment that’s late with FedEx. And so I, you know, as a building organization, you know, we were discovering, I wanted to build this great culture. It required rethinking a lot of the

practices I had seen and as we kind of learned things and tested things, my purpose is to share ideas that help people and organizations grow. So I became kind of passionate about being a little bit of a laboratory and if we found something that worked, try to share it with people or companies. To me, companies and great leadership are the solutions to our problems. If it’s not clear to you in 2025 that government is not the solution to your problems these days, then to me that’s the biggest impact.

that we can all have is that one great leader and one great organization spawns off a whole legion of great leaders and go off, a horrible leader and a horrible organization spawns off a whole group of traumatized people. So that’s sort of the why behind.

John Jantsch (11:38.393)

So as I read the definition of open transition program, OTP, there’s a lot of culture in it first. I mean, I don’t think you wake up and go, I read Robert’s book and now we’re going to do this. Right. I mean, there’s, there’s a, if there’s not a culture of trust and there’s not a culture of we want you to succeed, you know, but what’s best for you. mean, how do you kind of start to change that?

in order to adopt this. Cause I think a lot of companies could not physically adopt this.

Robert Glazer (12:09.872)

No, no, actually thank you for saying that because there’s two disclaimers that I forgot to make. One is, do not read this book as an employee and go into a company with a horrible culture and say, hey, I’m thinking about leaving or whatever when they walk everyone to the door in hoods because this is not a bottoms up thing. This is a tops up thing. And as you said, if you have a, and I say it in the book, if you have a crappy culture and you have poor psychological safety, this probably isn’t going to work.

John Jantsch (12:19.159)

Yeah

John Jantsch (12:22.926)

Hehehehehe

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (12:37.136)

So it needs to be built on a foundation of that. I mean, the quickest way in an organization to really try to improve psychological safety, which is not easy, is vulnerability and feedback, right? Leaders are sharing more, they’re vulnerable, they’re real, and people see that feedback is welcome and taken and acted on, right? Those tend to be two of the main doors that open that up. But yeah, this is not…

This is actually a program for good companies and good leaders. And I’m not saying like myself, but like myself, we’re frustrated that the two week thing just doesn’t feel compatible with what they’re trying to do, but no one knows any other way. So I’ve had people ask, like, look, if my company doesn’t operate this, can I do this as my team leader? And I was like, look, there’s nothing that would preclude you from having open and honest conversations, encouraging people to come, you know, if you got to give HR

John Jantsch (13:14.583)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:20.033)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (13:34.434)

notice you can wait till four weeks and let them know.

John Jantsch (13:38.443)

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it’s interesting. While this is sort of a prescription for the end game, it’s actually a bit of a roadmap for how to not have as many end games, isn’t it?

Robert Glazer (13:51.536)

Yeah, you don’t, look, we even talk to people about this when they join, you know, so they feel like if I happen to make a mistake, it’s not going to be a disaster. People are going to leave, right? So the question, and it could be two years and it could be great or it could be four years. The key is just how do they not leave poorly? And how do you turn that into what McKinsey has mastered? And I think what we’ve had a lot of success with is like alumni, you know, you can have.

John Jantsch (14:00.407)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:19.211)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (14:19.92)

your alumni at some point might be more than the number of employees you have. And they can either be net promoters and that distractors our alumni like McKinsey consultants who go in-house at companies and hire McKinsey. They go in-house at large brands and you know, they tend to hire us back to help with that. But that only works if they, if they left on a good note. So there’s a real long game to be played. You know, we live in the real time checking and glass door and review world. it, it, it, it, it’s everyone knows about.

scorched earth these days. Actually, people know more about it of the company that scorches earth rather than the candidate. I’m waiting for someone to build the inverse of Glassdoor. But it’s all interconnected and your brand’s kind of live out there. And if you can turn something that’s a negative into a positive, we put all this work into hiring well and culture and we’ve just totally ignored leaving.

John Jantsch (14:50.807)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:14.209)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is sort of the ultimate expression of culture, isn’t it?

Robert Glazer (15:19.79)

Yeah. How you treat someone out the door, probably the door probably said when you have nothing to gain from them, it’s the same thing. How do you, you you enter, know a lot of people interview and they always try get into a meal and try to see how they treat the help or the server. How do they treat people that, you know, they’re not trying to impress because they tend to show their true stripes.

John Jantsch (15:26.893)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:34.817)

Yeah,

John Jantsch (15:41.197)

Since you’ve been doing this for a while, I assume, do you actually consult with other companies to do this? I’m not sure if that’s part of your model.

Robert Glazer (15:48.816)

I haven’t, I’ve done some workshops or I do more speaking on the topic, but other than the, this is actually like, I had a lot of people reach out just from the Ted Talk and the HBR article and tell me, I went and decided to try to have one of these real conversations. It was so much better, but they didn’t have sort of the playbook. So this is the first time the sort of playbook has hit the market. And so, yeah, if there are companies that need help with it, I’m happy to talk to them about it.

John Jantsch (16:06.391)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

John Jantsch (16:18.765)

Well, I mean, it to me, it sort of perfect workshop, you know, kind of material. But again, I think the hard part is you got to still you got to come with the right frame of mind. This is not going to fix the wrong frame of mind, is it? Yeah. Yeah.

Robert Glazer (16:23.46)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (16:31.554)

No, you have to have the right company and the right people and there has to be a level of frustration and understand that the behavior of the employees will focus, will inherently go around what they see. There was a company I talked about in the book years ago that had won these cultures award and talked about their culture, super proud of their cultures. When I asked them how people left their company, they said, well, people give notice and then we ask them to leave that same.

because there’s a lot of risk. So they kind of march everyone out that same day with a box. And then like, if you think that anyone else is going to give you more than like, again, you’re worried about people stealing, they’re not going to steal at 10 a.m. on the day that they give notice, they’re going to do it the months beforehand because they see and they know that you’re going to throw them out that day. it is just this classic devil you don’t know versus devil you know.

John Jantsch (17:07.533)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:19.575)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:25.345)

Have you, have you determined any sort of metrics, employee morale, productivity? know, I mean, is there, I know this is in some ways just sort of a tweak to your culture anyway, and it’s not a giant pivot. So, you know, have you been able to determine maybe even anecdotally?

Robert Glazer (17:44.314)

can tell you it’s probably saved us just selfishly outside of the, look, it’s actually created, I can couple things. It’s also allowed for Boomerang employees because they leave well. A lot of employees would like to come back, but I think they’re even embarrassed based on how the end went or they gave two weeks notice and they don’t wanna call, they assume everyone hates them. So we’ve got a couple of our best employees be Boomerang employees. So I think that’s a great.

John Jantsch (17:48.417)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:55.733)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Well, truth.

John Jantsch (18:05.719)

Yeah, yeah.

Robert Glazer (18:11.92)

effort of it and then also just client retention. Like I know that there are clients we would have lost. I know that, you know, again, how this plays out in a services firm. if, you know, Tracy, we’ll pick on Tracy now, you know, Tracy gives two weeks notice and is my account manager on an account for maybe my PR firm.

John Jantsch (18:25.879)

Okay.

Robert Glazer (18:35.002)

So she comes on the weekly call and she says, hey Bob, I’m gonna leave in two weeks and there’s gonna be a replacement. I don’t know who it is yet, but they’ll reach out to you. Like I’m gonna be kind of pissed, right? But let’s say Tracy’s on a transition program. so they decide, so they find out about this two weeks later, they do some account shuffling and they bring in John. And John starts listening on the reverse week’s call, then leading in on week three and four and then building the rapport. And then by week eight or nine,

John Jantsch (18:43.063)

Yes, right.

John Jantsch (19:00.109)

Right.

Robert Glazer (19:03.834)

Tracy says, hey Bob, actually John’s gonna be taking over from here and now I know John, I’m already comfortable with John, like you just assuage this whole account turnover problem.

John Jantsch (19:12.941)

Yeah. Yeah. We actually do that even in a sales environment. you know, a of times people contact us cause they’ve read one of my books or something. and if I’m the one that’s having a meeting with them or I’m the one that starts, you know, they want John and, and so we’ve done that all along. It’s like, no, you get the team here. They are, they’re here on day one before you become a client. So that kind of leads me to, I don’t know if this is that kind of out there, but because you’re in a services business every now and then.

Robert Glazer (19:26.735)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:41.525)

A client needs two weeks notice. Right. Either, either you want to fire them or they want to fire you. Could some of this apply to a better outcome, you know, when you’re going to disengage with a client.

Robert Glazer (19:55.374)

Yeah, mean, ideally anyone would want time. Similar, we had some clients who, this goes a little to professional sports. You’ve got people hitting their free agency period, right? You know they’re not resigning, they’re not dogging it, they’re playing out their current contract knowing that they’re not gonna renew the contract. And I just think that if we could take a, yeah, no, usually they have their best year. Thank you, Scott Borass.

John Jantsch (20:06.434)

Right.

John Jantsch (20:17.633)

Well, sometimes they have their best year.

Robert Glazer (20:24.272)

And this is just, I think, where we could emulate a little more and take this a little less personally. People are not gonna work at your company forever. We’re just not, if they’re under 30, you talk to people under 30, they think two years is like a good term. Like that’s like, hey, I did my two years, it was great, like let’s move on. And so that’s the reality. And we just need to update our software for the version that we’re running.

John Jantsch (20:40.833)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (20:44.941)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:50.443)

Yeah. Yeah. I always kind of made a joke about the term when people talk about best practices. I’m like, well, there aren’t any better practices. Like, shouldn’t we try to do better practices as opposed to just what everybody does?

Robert Glazer (21:03.738)

Right? That’s funny. We always say at our company that we have a process for everything. And if you don’t know how to do it and you don’t have time or whatever, follow the existing process. But the goal is to upgrade all the existing processes. The difference is we want you to upgrade it for everyone, just not for yourself, right? Upgrade the software, upgrade the app. If you found a better way, do it and share it, right? Don’t, we don’t, want to be delivering a consistent service, but we don’t want it to just be consistently outdated.

John Jantsch (21:14.05)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:25.473)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:31.691)

Yeah. Well, Robert’s always great to visit with you. You are not only obviously building a strong culture at your own organization, you’re really contributing so much to the thinking on around the topic, even as a marketing company here. Here, most people think marketers are just cold blooded money grabbers, right? Just kidding.

Robert Glazer (21:57.604)

That’s salespeople.

John Jantsch (21:58.669)

That’s true. So I appreciate you taking a few months to about where can people find out more about your work and obviously more about rethinking Two Weeks Notice and that workshop that’s surely soon to be coming.

Robert Glazer (22:10.308)

Yeah, you can download the book anywhere that books are sold or audio books are sold. You can also go to robertglazer.com. That’s where all of my books, podcasts, newsletter, everything is on there. If you click on the Friday Forward Newsletter, you’ll then see a tab for rethinking two weeks notice. I have the book up on my sub stack and you can download the first, you can read the first three chapters totally free and see if it’s something that grabs you and you’ll get.

plenty of information even from those first three chapters.

John Jantsch (22:43.615)

Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you soon out there on the road.

Robert Glazer (22:47.78)

John, thanks for having me again.

The Secret to Smarter, Focused Productivity

The Secret to Smarter, Focused Productivity written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Tommy Mello

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Jay Papasan, a bestselling author, VP of strategic content at Keller Williams Realty International, and co-creator of The One Thing. Jay has dedicated his career to helping individuals and businesses achieve extraordinary results by simplifying priorities and mastering the art of focus. His expertise spans habit formation, goal setting, and purposeful decision-making, all aimed at fostering clarity and productivity in a world filled with distractions.

During our conversation, Jay shared powerful insights from his book and personal experiences, highlighting how small shifts in mindset and behavior can lead to transformational outcomes. From adopting effective morning habits to aligning decisions with core values, Jay broke down actionable strategies to help you navigate competing priorities, improve time management, and achieve sustainable business growth.

Key Takeaways:

Focus on the One Thing That Matters Most
Instead of juggling multiple priorities, identify and commit to the one task or goal that will make everything else easier or unnecessary.
Embrace the 66-Day Challenge for Habit Formation
Research shows it takes an average of 66 days to form lasting habits. Commit to this timeframe to develop successful habits that align with your goals.
Start Your Day with Morning Habits That Boost Clarity
Before picking up your phone, review your goals for the day. This simple shift ensures you prioritize what matters most over distractions.
Simplify to Achieve Business Growth
Focus on fewer initiatives executed at a higher level to improve team productivity and accountability, leading to sustainable success.
Align Decisions With Core Values
Use your core values as a filter for decision-making. If a choice doesn’t align with your top priorities, it’s a clear “no.”
Make Productivity Accessible to All
Writing and communicating at a simple, clear level—like the fifth-grade reading standard Jay uses—ensures your message resonates with a wider audience.
Leverage Strategic Planning for Long-Term Success
Build a one-page business plan with clear goals and initiatives. Simplicity fosters clarity and alignment across teams.
Purposeful Living Creates Work-Life Balance
By focusing on meaningful goals and eliminating unnecessary tasks, you can achieve a balance that supports both personal and professional success.

Chapters:

[00:00] Opening
[00:09] Welcoming Jay Papasan
[01:44] The Longevity and Impact of The One Thing
[06:34] Understanding the Concept of The One Thing and Applying Core Values
[12:03] Impactful Habits for Personal and Professional Success
[17:43] Evolution and Offerings of The One Thing Training Company

More About Jay Papasan:

Check out Jay Papasan’s Website
Connect with Jay Papasan on LinkedIn
Read The ONE Thing: The Surprisingly Simple Truth About Extraordinary Results by Tommy Mello

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.92)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jay, and my guest today is Jay Papasan. He’s a bestselling author and VP of strategic content for Keller Williams Realty International. He’s also the CEO of the One Thing Training Company, productive and co-owner of the Papasan Property Group in Austin, Texas. He’s co-authored several bestselling books, including one we’re going to talk a little bit about today, The One Thing.

Surprisingly simple truth about extraordinary results. So Jay, welcome to the show.

Jay Papasan (00:31.209)

Hey, thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

John Jantsch (00:33.61)

So I do want to ask about your title. What does a VP of strategic content do?

Jay Papasan (00:40.412)

It’s not what you think. I actually transitioned roles. was running three big departments and then got to focus again around the things I love. And when I was running our big marketing team here for about three years, if you’ve ever run a marketing team, you get lots of cold DMS on LinkedIn and everywhere else. So I was like, okay, I’m going to come up with something that is anti-marketing. So I like strategy. I love creating content. So I just made up a title.

John Jantsch (00:41.987)

You

Jay Papasan (01:09.332)

It doesn’t really mean anything. I don’t think there’s a lot of them out there. So I don’t get many cold DMs, so I consider it a success.

John Jantsch (01:16.654)

Yeah, well, I just assumed that it meant you made up all the content ideas and then told other people to do them.

Jay Papasan (01:24.172)

That is some of what I do. So I’m a part of five podcasts. I help create them. And I do some editorial direction, which is in my past, I was an editor. But I also put my fingers on the keyboards for our books and newsletters.

John Jantsch (01:25.486)

Hahaha

John Jantsch (01:41.067)

So the one thing, book, I read, did come out 11 years ago, 12 years ago? I read it when it came out.

Jay Papasan (01:47.468)

It came out April 1st, 2013, so 11 years ago.

John Jantsch (01:50.22)

Yeah, okay. Still sells year in, year out tons, has sold millions, translated into many languages. Is there anything that you would put your finger on? I mean, it’s one thing for a book to be really popular, but to remain that popular. Is there anything that you’ve identified that you think keeps it in selling year in, out?

Jay Papasan (02:10.412)

I’m a book nerd and my publisher is an engineer. So we probably overthink this to be honest. So Gary was very clear he wanted to write a timeless book. And I’ve had writing professors point out like you can’t use words like Kleenex and Frisbee because nobody will know what they mean in a hundred years. That’s a tissue. That’s a throwing disc. And strangely this guy who started an upstart real estate company thought the same way. So we did set out to write

a book that was more timeless than timely, which is counterintuitive in publishing. It’s very accessible. I ran the whole book through a program called the Hemingway app, and it’s written at a fifth grade reading level. And I had read research that the bestselling authors of all time write at a very surprisingly low grade level, like Hemingway fourth grade. And I’ve trained myself, if I’m honest, I don’t publish anything that’s higher than a sixth grade reading level.

John Jantsch (02:51.182)

Yes.

Jay Papasan (03:08.544)

because we want the widest possible audience to find it accessible and it’s not work to read. And then I do think that we got a little bit of timing. That would be the other big one. We showed up, our book showed up right when smartphones were really everywhere. Our kids had them, they had them in schools and we had so many opportunities to connect and also obligations to do. People didn’t know how to sort through their priorities. And here we are with the book called The One Thing.

John Jantsch (03:13.827)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:37.613)

Yes.

Jay Papasan (03:37.76)

which kind of promised we can kind of help you simplify and focus.

John Jantsch (03:41.654)

Yeah. So a movie that shows up in the book early on of Jack Parlin’s kind of the famous Curly character, say, what’s the secret of life? One thing. What, if any, that impact?

Jay Papasan (03:55.98)

And I think about him on stage at the Oscars, like at age 85 doing one-handed pushups too. Like that’s my memory of that guy. He was legit.

John Jantsch (04:01.11)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What if any role or impact did that have in your thinking?

Jay Papasan (04:11.08)

It was a sideways thing. Gary and I had come up with the idea of the book in 2008. We spent about four and a half years researching and writing it with the team. And we had never actually threw that in, in the mix. But when we were starting to get clued to the finish line and teach it and socialize it, everybody kept coming up and going, well, it’s this all came from city slickers, right? And we’re like, no. So we actually went back and very late in the process added it to the book because

John Jantsch (04:12.781)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (04:33.614)

Yeah

Jay Papasan (04:39.966)

It was just an expectation. If the book is called The One Thing, that movie was so big, everyone expected it to be connected, so we did. And it’s perfect. I I can’t believe that wasn’t the connection.

John Jantsch (04:41.816)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (04:48.418)

Yeah.

Yeah, so surely somebody has stopped you at some point and said, but Jay, what’s the one thing?

Jay Papasan (04:59.148)

All the time, right? And that’s honestly what we do in our training company. We do try to help people figure out what matters most. a friend of ours, Sean Blanc, he was sharing with me, like lot of times he works with busy entrepreneurs and he goes, they look up one day and realize that 93 % of their success comes down to two hours a week. It’s just hard to believe that that could be so important those two hours.

John Jantsch (05:02.006)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (05:29.036)

Thank

John Jantsch (05:29.474)

Yeah. You know, I wonder, I’ve often, in fact, I wrote about this years ago, so more than one dude, I guess. If somebody just said, look, I’m just going to start working 20 hours a week. That’s just all the time I got. Cause I got this other thing, whatever it is. Would they be any less productive? I wonder.

Jay Papasan (05:47.936)

think if they’re committed to a big goal, they’d be more productive. So like, I don’t know, I’ve written about the power of constraints and my wife launched her career just as soon as our youngest child was being dropped off for daycare. And she said, I will only sell between 9 a.m. and 2 p.m. because I’m going to be there for drop off and I’m going to be there for pickup. And she was rookie of the year and sold like 85 homes. And it’s not so much.

John Jantsch (05:51.095)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:12.344)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jay Papasan (06:16.18)

What she did, what she did is what all successful real estate salespeople do. It’s all the stuff that she chose not to do. She wasn’t hanging out at the water cooler. So I think of it like the day before vacation miracle, right? The day before vacation, you are a very productive individual and it’s not because of what you’re doing. You’re doing the right stuff. It’s you’re not doing any of the nonsense.

John Jantsch (06:23.192)

Yeah, right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:37.74)

Yeah, yeah. On April 14th, everybody has time to get their last minute tax preparation done, So what are some of the kind of common, especially in a book that is seemingly simple, it’s not a large book, 150 pages, something like that. What are some of the common misperceptions when people hear that this simple concept?

Jay Papasan (06:43.116)

Yeah, you got it.

Jay Papasan (07:03.444)

You know, when they hear the one thing, I think they think only one thing. And I think that really stops a lot of people in their tracks. I mean, maybe it sells a lot of books because they’re like, well, I want to know what that is. But the reality is we want people to understand it in a given moment, right? This week, this month, this hour, you should be clear about what your number one priority is. And so if you you pick up the US edition of the book, it’s white hardcover.

John Jantsch (07:05.698)

Yeah, right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:26.232)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (07:31.946)

We never put testimonials on the back. We never did any of the traditional stuff. We always had a question because we were very clear that what was the one thing we wanted people to do when they put down this book? We wanted them ask, like, what’s my one thing? And we wanted to make the book into a, like I’ve heard from people who flip the cover around on their bookshelf so that they were always staring at the question just to remind themselves, am I acting in my priorities or am I messing around right now?

John Jantsch (07:44.994)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (07:59.81)

So there’s a huge body of work talking about core values in a business and finding your why and your purpose. I’ve had a lot of people go through those exercises and, and, and end up saying, well, now what, what do I do with that? do you feel like you’ve sort of crossed that bridge?

Jay Papasan (08:12.993)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (08:18.888)

Yeah, I mean, when we were preparing to talk, like I shared, one of the things that since the book came out, I think I’ve gotten really good at is making decisions based on my core values. And core values isn’t actually in the book. We talk about purpose. And I’ve taught the book, I don’t know, four or 500 times now, corporate and private audiences. And everybody kind of struggles with this idea of what’s my purpose, what’s my mission. And a lot of times they’ll pull together a statement

John Jantsch (08:32.398)

Yeah, yeah.

Jay Papasan (08:47.616)

that doesn’t feel wholly authentic because it’s too weighty. I’ve found that core values is a gateway drug and I could give you the long story, but I won’t. What we teach people to do is identify what are your top three core values. And when you have a big decision, it should be a nine out of 10 on all three if possible, but certainly on number one. And mine are impact, family and abundance.

John Jantsch (08:49.816)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jay Papasan (09:11.872)

And we teach people like, I know what family means. It’s not just my immediate family. It’s my friends and partners. It’s the people I treat like family. And I mean, I actually got some of this from a fellow named Stu McLaren, who’s big in our space. He sold his first business because of this realization from reading our book and essentialism. So if you see my phone and I’ll hold it up for the people watching, I’ve got my core values as my screen saver.

John Jantsch (09:19.96)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (09:37.986)

Mm-hmm.

Jay Papasan (09:39.732)

I’ve read that you see your phone screen 87 times a day. I’ve got them on my one page goal sheet. I’ve got them front and center with my coach. So what I’ve tried to do is make it impossible for me to forget the things I’ve decided are important to me so that I can try to let my decisions be informed by them. But how do we make it practical? Is it a nine out of 10?

John Jantsch (10:03.928)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jay Papasan (10:06.09)

Or is it a five out of 10? Like that should tell you something. That’s not a heck yes, that’s a heck no.

John Jantsch (10:12.672)

So I’m sure that in your teaching, somebody says, okay, here’s the process, or you teach, here’s the process for identifying your one thing in a sea of competing priorities. Is there a process?

Jay Papasan (10:29.142)

There is. what I thought, I was worried. Gary, you know, he’s the self-made billionaire. He was the coach of all the top people in our industry for so long. He had more faith in it than I did because he’d lived it longer. But when someone asked the focusing question, what’s the one thing I can do such that by doing it, everything else will be easier, unnecessary? It’s a mouthful, but it’s a big question. I even asked him, I said, what if people don’t know the answer? He goes, you might be surprised.

John Jantsch (10:30.094)

Jay Papasan (10:58.342)

And having taught this to probably 10,000 people, I’ll tell you 98 % of people know what their one thing is, and they just are too busy to stop to ask the question. And usually they’ll tell you they feel guilty for not doing it. They’re walking around with a bad case of the shoulds. I know I should be doing this. I know I should be doing this. What they don’t have is a framework for them to live their intentions. And so we tried to help them have a simple framework.

for identifying that thing, which most people can, but then how do I put it on my calendar and live my schedule?

John Jantsch (11:32.366)

Yeah. Yeah. So, so that gets us to habits. This is a lot about habits, right? Because I think, I think a lot of times people can have a, they can go to a weekend workshop or whatever, have the aha, you know, but just like everything, if I say I’m going to lose weight, well, there’s some habits I’m going to have to change or develop, right? So what have you found have been the habits that people need to change or develop to really bring this to life?

Jay Papasan (11:49.707)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (11:57.878)

So in our research, we discovered that as near as we can tell factually, takes 66 days on average to form a habit. That was a discovery because we walked into it thinking it was 21 or 30 days. And so it takes longer than people think. But we’ve done, actually trademarked 66 day challenge just for the fun of it. And every year we lead three or four cohorts. So I’ve actually got good data on the habits that people have found most impactful. So I’ll share with you.

John Jantsch (12:21.57)

Huh. Yeah.

Jay Papasan (12:27.306)

I’m writing about it in a few weeks, but I’ll give you the sneak peek. The most impactful habit we ever did as a group cohort was getting people to look at their goals before they picked up their phone. And I underestimated it, I’ll be honest. But when you know what you’ve actually said yes to, it becomes a lot easier to say no to everything else. And almost everyone you know and I know, within 10 minutes of getting up, they’re on their phone.

John Jantsch (12:39.458)

Mm.

John Jantsch (12:50.21)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (12:56.707)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (12:57.236)

and they’re usually on social media, email or text. And those are places that other people’s priorities live. And so we had the highest reported overall halo effect when people just took five minutes in the morning to look at their goals before they went about their business. They did more work, they did it earlier, they were more focused, less distracted, like weird stuff, like fewer dirty dishes. So…

John Jantsch (13:22.626)

Jay Papasan (13:23.584)

There you go. I mean, I could go through habit after habit that has impacted me, but in terms of the ones that we’ve measured, that’s been by far the most successful.

John Jantsch (13:32.674)

Yeah. And I think it makes a ton of sense because especially, well, anybody, but I’ve been an entrepreneur all my life. So I’ll use my example. mean, we just, from the minute you get in front of your computer, you’re pulled in a thousand directions. it feels like, and so you’re right, just the simple habit of reminding yourself, yeah, I said I was going to do that. is, is so I could see the power.

Jay Papasan (13:45.632)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (13:55.318)

think I heard John Maxwell say this, so this is not a J original. He just said, some yeses are bigger than others. When you said, do, you knew that you were saying no to everybody else. And he’s like, I just remember thinking, wow, we need more clear yeses in our life so that we can say no.

John Jantsch (13:58.285)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:06.636)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:15.414)

So obviously this concept applies to any human being, right? Any individual. But what have you seen the impact it’s made on business leaders in kind of growing or scaling or changing their company, making it more sustainable, all those kinds of goals?

Jay Papasan (14:32.776)

There’s been a couple of things I’ve seen in sales teams. What I’ve seen them do is instead of going big goals, big action, they’ve actually gotten a little bit clear about being a little bit more precise about what they’re going to do to hit the goal. So they tend to do fewer things at a higher level. And one team, I remember at a huge biomedical company went from the bottom quartile to the top three in two quarters, and they focused on one product and one customer.

And they just used the book and they just said, how simple can we make it? And the challenge why people don’t like to do that is that when there’s complexity, people have places to hide. If you say you’re just going to do one thing, it’s yes or no, did you do it? And that’s a huge amount of accountability. So one, I’ve found people grow their revenue by simplifying their sales funnels hugely. And the other one from a team is

John Jantsch (15:11.681)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:15.372)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:24.248)

Yes, yes, yes.

Jay Papasan (15:27.574)

We teach people to do a very simple business plan. Everything’s on one page and it’s got to be like 12 point type, no cheating. And if it’s that simple, like one goal, three big initiatives, everybody kind of knows what their role is. And so we found two things like the power of focus and the power of clarity in business are very underrated.

John Jantsch (15:50.734)

100%. Do you find, I know you probably have worked with people that have been very successful that get at some point get to a place where they’re like, okay, I’ve done a lot of things. What’s next? So is that then a different reframing of the one thing or is it just a, okay, I just need to sit down and re-strategize.

Jay Papasan (16:12.652)

I think that we have seasons in our life. I do think that, you know, I know that something I read about millennials say that they’ll have as many as like 14 careers in their life. And I’ve been at the same place for 24 years and my dad was at the same place for 25. Gary’s been doing the same thing for 45. But if I actually step back, I’ve gone through phases about every seven years. And the one constant for me has been books.

John Jantsch (16:24.257)

just look at LinkedIn. It’s crazy.

John Jantsch (16:37.048)

Yeah, yeah.

Jay Papasan (16:41.568)

That has been the through line of my life. So there is a theme, but what I’ve been doing around it has evolved and changed. So I’m open to that. Like, I don’t think that just because that’s your one thing that you’re a prisoner to it. But what I do find is that if you can make peace with the boredom of success, which most people struggle with, their one thing will open up so many doors to things they didn’t expect. So I don’t know. Like I don’t.

John Jantsch (16:55.096)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (17:08.81)

I think that we can always ask the question, has my one thing changed?

John Jantsch (17:12.238)

Yeah. Well, the world’s changed around us, right? Every, every five years. So we better be at least checking in, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So, I know you have the, read it in the bio, the name of it, let me get it right. The one thing training company. do people show, is that something that people buy from you custom or do you have routine? Like I can show up and we’ll do this three day thing. How does that work?

Jay Papasan (17:14.634)

Yeah!

Jay Papasan (17:17.992)

Nimble. Yeah with AI and everything like now, especially as writers. I my goodness

Jay Papasan (17:41.066)

You know, it’s evolving. When I took over, think we had 24 SKUs. And I remember sitting down at a mastermind and someone said, dude, your first job is to one thing, you’re one thing business. I was like, yeah, I heard you. and we’ve simplified and now we have basically one model for like what people come to us for is I want to either run my life or my business using these principles. So I worked with our head coach, got named Jordan Fried. He’s been my coach for the last few years. We built out our training program.

John Jantsch (17:45.738)

huh.

John Jantsch (17:51.026)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:03.651)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (18:10.624)

Here’s where we start, here’s where we finish, and here’s how we keep going. And we now just kind of offer that in different formats. Do you want to do a group coaching model? Do you want us to come to your company and teach it? Do you want us to do one-on-one coaching? Right? We have different ways we deliver fundamentally our one thing process. It’s a little different for big businesses. We have some Fortune 50 companies, and there’s a lot more rules with them, that’s for sure. But we do…

John Jantsch (18:31.48)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:39.074)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (18:40.32)

We fundamentally today teach people how to lead themselves and lead their teams using these principles and we offer it in different mediums. That would be the simplest way I could explain it. And we just get leads on the website. Right now we don’t even do cold outreach.

John Jantsch (18:57.73)

How much of a competitive advantage or competitive asset do you believe the one thing is for Keller Williams?

Jay Papasan (19:07.35)

We’ve got two signature books. So what’s weird, the one thing has sold 3.6 million copies in all editions now. It’ll be 3.7 in the next few months. Our first book we co-wrote together and we published it in 2003, it was called The Millionaire Real Estate Agent. That sold 1.6. In an industry at that time of about 800,000, today it’s over a million. Both of them are perennial.

John Jantsch (19:33.157)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (19:37.106)

sellers. They’re not always on the bestseller list anymore. But I do believe when people say, look up and say, you wrote the book on X, it provides a certain amount of thought leadership. It’s very hard to measure. You know this with PR and marketing, but the exposure, I have to think every time someone walked through an airport, they saw Gary Keller’s name on a bestselling book that has to provide a certain amount of authority. And I can tell you, I talked to

John Jantsch (19:52.568)

Sure, sure.

Jay Papasan (20:05.696)

the people who run our franchises, and I just always ask the question, how many of you had someone show up to join your team without you recruiting them because they read a book? And there’s usually always about 10 % of the room will raise their hands. So it attracts talent, it provides thought leadership. I can’t measure it, but I know that we grew about 40 % year over year for six years after the first book came out.

John Jantsch (20:17.826)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:31.468)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think there’s no question. There’s some attribution there. Well, Jay, I. Yeah, no, no question. Absolutely. I mean, I have a similar story when my first book came out. No question. Again, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Ductate Marketing podcast. mean, it’s really amazing to that you think of the legacy that this book certainly is created for you and.

Jay Papasan (20:36.032)

I think it’s a great reason for business people to write books.

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (20:59.85)

It’s funny. I feel the same way about you. Like you’re on like my special shelf with Al Ries and Trout and Seth Godin. Like you’re in the hallowed halls of marketing writers for me. So I’m kind of sitting here and thinking, wow, I’m so lucky to be on your podcast. So thank you for having me. I’m serious about that.

John Jantsch (21:06.958)

You

John Jantsch (21:14.414)

Well, I appreciate that, Jay. And again, I appreciate you taking a few moments and hopefully we’ll run into you again soon one of these days out there on the road.

Jay Papasan (21:24.566)

can’t wait.

Top 10 Duct Tape Marketing Podcast Episodes of 2024

Top 10 Duct Tape Marketing Podcast Episodes of 2024 written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

As we wrap up 2024, I can’t help but look back at all the incredible conversations I had on the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast this year. Marketing is changing faster than ever, and small businesses have been riding the wave—adapting to new trends, embracing tech, and finding fresh ways to connect with their customers. This year has been all about staying creative, staying connected, and making things happen, and I’ve had the privilege of digging into all of that with some amazing guests.

I thought it’d be fun to round up the episodes that really hit home with listeners this year. These were the top podcast episodes of 2024 that brought the most value, sparked the best ideas, and inspired action. If you missed any, now’s the perfect time to tune in!

If you enjoyed what you heard here, check out the full line-up of shows.

1. Stephan Spencer-Mastering SEO in the Age of AI

Stephan Spencer is an SEO pro, founder of Net Concepts, and host of the podcasts Get Yourself Optimized and Marketing Speak. In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, Spencer and I dig into how AI is changing the game for SEO and what you can do to keep up.

Biggest takeaway:

SEO in 2024 is all about adapting to AI. Spencer shares how to use AI tools to create better content, optimize your site, and stay ahead of the competition. Whether you’re an SEO veteran or just trying to boost your online presence, his advice will help you navigate this evolving landscape and set your business up for success.

2. John Jantsch – Unlocking the Secrets to Premium Pricing in Professional Services

Pricing professional services can feel tricky—unlike products, services are intangible, and their value can vary from client to client. In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I dive into the strategies that help businesses charge premium prices by focusing on solutions instead of just selling services.

Biggest takeaway:

It all starts with messaging. To charge a premium, you need to clearly communicate the problem you solve and show clients you truly understand their challenges. From there, it’s about standing out with a unique approach, building trust through personalization, and offering productized packages that make your services easy to understand and buy.

I also explore how to create long-term relationships and shift to a scalable, recurring revenue model by delivering consistent value to specific clients.

3. Seth Godin – How to Build Game-Changing Strategy by Choosing Your Customers and Competition

I had the pleasure of chatting with Marketing Hall of Famer and longtime friend of the show, Seth Godin, on this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Godin, known for his groundbreaking ideas on marketing and entrepreneurship, joined me to dive into my favorite topic—strategy. We explored how both businesses and individuals can rethink their strategic approach for greater success, drawing from his latest book, This Is Strategy: Make Better Plans.

Biggest takeaway:

Strategy isn’t just a step-by-step plan—it’s a philosophy of becoming. Godin explains how understanding systems, intentionally choosing your customers and competitors, and approaching strategy with empathy can transform how you operate.

In our conversation, Godin challenges conventional ideas, emphasizing the role of empathy—not just kindness—in decision-making. By truly understanding your customers and the systems they navigate, you can create stronger, longer-lasting connections. He also highlights the power of intentionally choosing who you serve and compete with, helping businesses escape commoditization and focus on delivering unique value.

4. Hortense le Gentil– Unlocking Your Leadership Potential

Hortense le Gentil is an executive leadership coach, speaker, and author with over 30 years of experience helping CEOs and senior executives become more authentic and empathetic leaders. In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, we explore what it takes to evolve from being a “hero” leader to a truly “human” one.

Biggest takeaway:

Great leadership isn’t about having all the answers—it’s about leading with authenticity, empathy, and vulnerability. Hortense shares practical tips for overcoming mental blocks, connecting with your team on a deeper level, and unlocking your full leadership potential.

If you’re looking to grow as a leader and inspire those around you, this episode is packed with insights to help you thrive in today’s fast-changing world.

5. Russell Henneberry –From Subscribers to Revenue: A Tactical Guide To Mastering Newsletters

Russell Henneberry is a digital marketing pro, speaker, and founder of The Clikk newsletter. In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, Henneberry and I talk about the power of email newsletters and how they’ve made a big comeback as a must-have tool for marketers.

Biggest takeaway:

Email newsletters are more than just a way to stay in touch—they’re a goldmine for driving revenue. Henneberry shares how to create newsletters that balance valuable content with smart calls to action, keeping your audience engaged while strategically guiding them to take the next step.

We also dive into ways to monetize newsletters, from ads and consulting to info products, and why focusing on metrics like open rates and subscriber quality is key to success.

6. Jay Baer – How to Navigate the New Era of Customer Expectations

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I had a fascinating conversation with Jay Baer, a business growth expert, customer experience researcher, and 7th-generation entrepreneur. Jay, the author of seven bestselling books and founder of six multi-million dollar companies, shares insights from his latest book, The Time to Win: How to Exceed Your Customers’ Need for Speed.

Biggest takeaway:

Jay’s research reveals that two-thirds of customers now value speed as much as price. Saving your customers time is a surefire way to earn their loyalty, while wasting their time can cost you financially. In today’s fast-paced world, speed and responsiveness are essential for delivering exceptional customer experiences and driving revenue growth.

Jay breaks down the six-part “Time to Win” framework, offering actionable strategies for prioritizing speed within your organization and securing a competitive edge.

7. Ryan Deiss – Crushing the Founder’s Curse: Unlocking Business Value Beyond Yourself

Ryan Deiss, founder of DigitalMarketer.com and a serial entrepreneur, joins me on the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast to share insights from his latest book, Get Scalable: The Operating System Your Business Needs to Run and Scale Without You. In this episode, we dive into strategies for overcoming the Founder’s Curse and creating a business that thrives beyond the founder’s involvement.

Biggest takeaway:

To truly scale your business, you need to break free from being indispensable. Ryan shares practical strategies for building value engines, establishing strategic rhythms, and creating high-output teams that can drive growth without constant founder oversight. He also discusses how to map value creation flows and implement effective meeting rhythms to keep your business running smoothly and sustainably.

8. Kate Bradley Chernis – How To Produce Better Content With Collaborative AI

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I had the pleasure of chatting with Kate Bradley Chernis, former rock and roll DJ turned founder and CEO of Lately AI. With over 20 years of experience in media and marketing, Kate shares her unique perspective on the evolution of content marketing and how AI is reshaping the industry.

Biggest takeaway:

Content marketing is evolving, and the key to success lies in blending human creativity with the power of AI. Kate shares actionable strategies for cutting through content clutter, crafting personalized social media messaging, and leveraging AI to boost engagement while navigating challenges like data privacy.

9. Amanda Holmes – Walking Billboards and QR Codes

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I had the pleasure of speaking with Amanda Holmes, CEO of Chet Holmes International. A true innovator in sales strategy, Amanda shares how she doubled her company’s sales by 1176% in her first year and dives deep into the transformative power of the Dream 100 strategy and other unconventional marketing tactics.

Biggest takeaway:

Amanda explains how the Dream 100 strategy, a proven method developed by her father while working with Charlie Munger, focuses on targeting a select group of high-value prospects to drive exponential growth. She also shares creative marketing approaches, like walking around trade shows with a four-foot billboard and strategically placed QR codes, to seamlessly blend offline and online efforts for maximum impact.

10. Andrew Guttormsen – How to Build Game-Changing Strategy by Choosing Your Customers and Competition

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I sat down with Andrew Guttormsen, co-founder of Circle, the all-in-one platform for professional creator communities and world-class brands. With experience as the former VP of Growth at Teachable, Andrew has a wealth of knowledge in courses, memberships, and building growth marketing teams. Together, we explored what makes platinum communities thrive, from onboarding excellence to long-term member retention.

Biggest takeaway:

A thriving online community goes beyond the platform—it’s about fostering engagement, delivering value, and retaining members for the long haul. Andrew shares how platinum communities, like Oprah’s on Circle, use signature gatherings, seamless onboarding, and consistent value delivery to build lasting connections and keep members invested.

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Building a $220M Empire: The Power of Training and Branding

Building a $220M Empire: The Power of Training and Branding written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Tommy Mello

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Tommy Mello, a visionary entrepreneur and founder of a $220 million home services business operating across 20 states. As the author of Elevate: Build a Business Where Everybody Wins and host of The Home Service Expert podcast, Tommy has dedicated his career to helping others achieve business success by focusing on recruiting top talent, optimizing branding strategies, and delivering exceptional customer experiences.

During our conversation, Tommy shared his journey of scaling a business from a small operation to an industry leader in the home services space. He emphasized the importance of investing in training, aligning core values, and leveraging performance pay systems to build a thriving team and long-term customer loyalty.

Key Takeaways:

Recruit Like You Market: Tommy treats recruiting like a marketing campaign, creating a continuous pipeline of A-plus talent. He focuses on identifying the right candidates by defining the ideal “avatar” for each role and using targeted ads to attract them.
Performance Pay Drives Results: Transitioning to performance-based pay not only motivates employees but also improves KPIs like booking rates, conversion rates, and customer satisfaction, driving both team and business success.
Branding is More Than a Logo: Tommy’s brand overhaul, including visually striking vehicle wraps and a unified brand voice across email, billboards, and yard signs, elevated his company’s visibility and customer trust.
Optimize the Call Center: A well-trained call center is critical. By focusing on empathy, responsiveness, and problem-solving, his team converts more leads into loyal customers, maximizing ROI on marketing investments.
Blue-Collar Jobs Are the Future: With skilled labor shortages increasing, Tommy sees a bright future for tradespeople, emphasizing the financial and personal rewards of working in the home services sector.

Chapters:

[00:00] Who is Tommy Mello?
[02:14] Optimizing Recruitment and Service Quality
[04:05] Branding Goes Beyond Your Logo
[07:26] Motivating Employees to Perform
[12:37] Recruiting vs. Creating A-Players
[15:52] Using Marketing to Recruit

More About Tommy Mello:

Check out Tommy Mello’s Website
Connect with Tommy Mello on Instagram
Read Elevate: Build a Business Where Everybody Wins by Tommy Mello

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.24)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Tommy Mello. He’s a driven entrepreneur who’s built a 220 million home services business with over 700 employees across 20 states. He’s also the founder of Home Service Expert, where he’s dedicated to helping fellow entrepreneurs achieve the same level of success. He’s also the host of a popular Home Service Expert podcast and the author of

Elevate, build a business where everybody wins. So Tommy, welcome to the show.

Tommy Mello (00:35.662)

Thank you. Really excited to be here.

John Jantsch (00:37.004)

So I got looking back at this, think this is at least your second appearance on the show. And I got looking back and the last time you were on the show, it was 2020. were in the throes of, or maybe just starting to come out of the pandemic. And the home services business was really kind of crazy at that point. A lot of folks were in turmoil. A lot of folks were really having trouble finding skilled labor. So.

Fast forward to 2024, what’s the state of the industry today?

Tommy Mello (01:08.962)

Never been better. You know, we were deemed essential during COVID. And the fact is, there’s always this teeter totter. You need more leads or you need more great people. I learned in 2017 how to build my own technicians. So right now we graduate from my training school right next door, about 50 technicians a month. But it’s kind of, I view recruiting like marketing.

John Jantsch (01:11.608)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (01:19.032)

Right.

Tommy Mello (01:36.506)

You got to really define who your avatar is and make sure it’s the right person because if you’re not converting leads getting the right reviews getting the right opportunity job averages You know people are always like I need more leads and I’m like well You must be booking every phone call. You must be converting every Booked call to a paid customer and they’re like, well, what do you mean? And I’m like, well your marketing dollars are going to waste because your call centers Not working out very well. Your technicians are not converting very well. You don’t have a rehash program. So

I’m kind of jumping around here a little bit, but the most important thing is you got the right people showing up to the right leads. And you should be ranking your leads and ranking the people showing up to the leads.

John Jantsch (02:11.202)

Okay.

John Jantsch (02:17.282)

Yeah. So, it’s interesting because I think a lot of business owners, doesn’t matter what industry, kind of think of hiring as an event. I need people. I’ll go out and hire some people. I’ll run some ads. I’ll hire some people. And the way you’re talking about it is more like we would think of traditional marketing. You’ve got to know who that ideal customer is. You’ve got to have the right message. You’ve got to constantly build pipeline to get those folks. And I think of a lot of businesses treated recruitment that way.

They’d find a lot more success rather than just always firefighting.

Tommy Mello (02:52.122)

Can tell you this What if I told you like I want you to the old Pareto 80-20 rule what I’d love people to do is look at their top 20 % I said what if they were able to multiply that by five so that what that means is They take the top 20 % of their working staff and either you got to train them up or out to get into that 20 percentile and Unfortunately when you’re a small business

John Jantsch (02:58.776)

Right, right.

John Jantsch (03:15.918)

Mm-hmm.

Tommy Mello (03:21.582)

like I was for a decade, longer than that actually. I didn’t know what good was. And you know what I used to tell people, John, I used to tell people, if you got a garage, you’re my client. And I’ve quickly, over the last, I’d say seven years, realized that not everybody with a garage door is my client. The people that are price shopping, you could only have three things. My dad taught me this. You could have the cheapest, the best quality, or on your timeline.

You can never give all three. It’s impossible to give all three. So I decided a decade ago, I’m not going to be the cheapest. I’m going get out there today when they need me the most and I’m going to do a quality job with a drug tested background, trustworthy person that can be alone with your wife and kids. And that’s what we’ve done. And I think to be the cheapest is a race to the bottom.

John Jantsch (04:11.726)

Yeah. You got to throw all that other stuff out. Right. So you, you talk about in your writing and, and when we talked before, you know, about kind of struggling a little bit before you kind of turned the corner and, and, you know, figured out how to really scale was that, there any, were there any kind of pivotal moments or pivotal things that really made you, you know, you feel like, you know, kind of made the light bulb come on and, know, really lead to success.

Tommy Mello (04:41.112)

Yeah, this right here, I know not everybody’s watching, but the way my trucks were branded, this was my original truck. It was just a white truck with stenciling on it. Then I got a better wrap that was pretty good. And then I got this one that’s absolutely phenomenal. And this other, the brand new wrap I got, and this had to be about five years ago. It was done by Dan Ancinelli from Kick Charge.

And it doesn’t have a lot of logos like the BBB and Yelp and Angie’s List on it. It doesn’t have anything. It doesn’t even have a phone number on it. It’s a billboard. People can only read five words as they’re driving by. So anybody that puts these 18 words on there and says, you know, call now to get your appointment and this QR code, they’re driving by. So once you get your brand dialed in and now my signature on my email looks like my catalog.

John Jantsch (05:10.02)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (05:33.626)

Looks like my website, looks like my yard signs, looks like my billboards. And then I’ve got a jingle that’s the same everywhere. So that was a big piece of it. I think people don’t understand a part of marketing is your brand. And brand is, you know, some people take them and they differentiate them a little bit, but I think it starts with your brand. And what is your core values and what do you stand for? What can you prove you’re known for? Like you can’t say I’m the best. You can say out of the last thousand jobs, 998.

Started on time and two of them got rectified within 48 hours and those are facts and your kpi should be driven towards the consumer Obviously your financial department’s going to have kpis like what’s your conversion rate and average ticket or what you know balancing income statement and all a lot of great Data about what’s good for us, but we need to start thinking about what’s good for our clients and The biggest thing i’ve Is most companies i’ve invested in most companies that i’ve coached

I find most of their opportunity in their call center, where their leads are coming into. My mom used to answer phones for me, John, and she, sometimes I felt like she was having phone sex. She’s never, I don’t think had phone sex, but she’d be like, my God, honey, I am so sorry. It was like crazy. She’d be like apologizing and empathy and just, honey, I am so, we’re gonna get this fixed. I’m gonna send out my best technician. This is like 15 years ago.

John Jantsch (07:01.624)

Tommy Mello (07:01.914)

I show up to these houses John and the people would give me a hug and they’d be like this is the best company I’ve ever talked to like Whoever that lady was she would never say she’s my mother, but she brag about me She’s I’m gonna send out our best technician this guy. He’s a handsome devil and shit, she never says she’s my mom and I show up and there was putty in my hands like the client would say whatever you guys say to do We’re gonna do it. We’ve never heard of anybody take a call like that

And so I think the contact center, there’s a lot of opportunities. And that’s operational, right? But marketing needs to go through all the way through to where I collect the cash. And even after I get the review and we do business to get in the future. And I think people miss that.

John Jantsch (07:45.604)

You know, I listen to you talk about, mean, obviously your mom was very invested in the success of the business, in your success personally. How do you get employees to feel like, I’m an essential part. mean, a lot of times people answer the phone, they’re like, hey, I’m just putting in my time. You know, I don’t get to see that profit necessarily. mean, you know, all the things people can delude themselves with. So how do you get people, you know, everybody bought in it? Cause I know that’s been a big part of what you’ve really preached.

in terms of really building a company culture.

Tommy Mello (08:19.514)

There’s a simple phrase called what’s in it for them. And I’m not into tenure. I’m not in an hourly pay. I’m in a performance pay. And if you set the guidelines and it’s fair and it’s distinguishable, meaning that it’s not based on somebody’s opinion, performance pay, what’ll happen? And I want to be very careful here for your listeners. If you switch to performance pay, you’ll probably lose 80 % of your staff because they’d like to get paid hourly.

They love to get paid, you know, come and do my job and be done. But when you come up with ways to say what’s in it for them, how can I have them win more? And look, everybody’s like, how do you even start that? Well, you just take your historical data. Like this person’s booking 62%. At first, you got to know KPIs and have data accuracy. There’s got to be some type of data compliance to make sure that it’s accurate. And see, if I got them up, like right now we’ll do 300 million, right, next year. For every percent we increase,

John Jantsch (09:14.328)

Mm-hmm.

Tommy Mello (09:16.346)

The booking rate, that’s $3 million of revenue to the company. At 20%, that’s an extra $600,000 to the EBITDA. And so I’m a mathematical guy, right? So I’m always doing math and coming up with formulas and saying, does this get the right behavior I’m shooting for? And if I share some of it with them, the company and, you know, I win really big, but I allow them to feel like they’re winning really big too in comparison. Because if you’re making $17 an hour, I can pay people $45 an hour.

and still be winning. And how easy is it, do you think, for me to recruit A-plus players when I can pay that much? It’s like taking candy from a baby. It’s like, why would he pay that much? Well, he’s getting people to set him up for success. And that’s so important. It’s just smiling on the phone and empathy and really caring. And you know, I heard this from a buddy of mine. He said, if you ever go to the Four Seasons, you’ll notice that they hire people that genuinely

John Jantsch (09:52.973)

Right.

Tommy Mello (10:16.238)

Genuinely do care like they don’t just say hey, how are you today sir? Nice to see you. See you later They say listen is there anything I can do to make your stay better I’ll tell you this I got to stay it for seasons and in the past They might tell you a story to say it was so magical for me and my family After that day I knew I wanted to work here and my goal is to make sure that this is the best experience you ever have to look you in the eyes They’ll walk you to the bathroom if you ask for a question

John Jantsch (10:17.763)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (10:43.108)

They’ll open up a restaurant that’s closed to make you something themselves that they have the opportunity to do that. And that’s what I think is that we talk so much about marketing, about making the phone ring. And I talk about stacking the deck on the other side by recruiting A plus people on your team.

John Jantsch (10:59.214)

Talk a little bit about that concept of recruiting versus creating, you know, A plus team. Obviously, if somebody is already a proven superstar salesperson, they’re, you’re going to pay for it, right? You know, to recruit them perhaps. Whereas I know you spend a lot of time and energy actually training and teaching and creating A players. Talk a little bit about that, the difference between those two ideas.

Tommy Mello (11:28.288)

I do think there’s certain things that look for I hire for personality. So I contact tonality. Can you tell a great story to you smile a lot when I take you and your wife or husband out to dinner. But I find that you guys get along well because if there’s problems at home there’s more likely going to be problems when you come to work because you’re trying to kind of put yourself out of a fire that you just got into at home. But what we do is we train train train train train we role play.

John Jantsch (11:32.664)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (11:50.532)

You

Tommy Mello (11:56.174)

And we just focus on these attributes of like believe in yourself. The first thing you need to do is believe in yourself. And that’s what eye contact tonality smiling is, is believing in yourself. And I’m not Starbucks. I can’t hire people to save them, to start looking through their lens differently. It’s so hard to do that. It takes years. It takes years. Sometimes people go into the military, very unorganized, come out very, very organized, but that takes sometimes four to eight years. So I try to find the right canvas.

And then I try to teach these things like the words we use. We never say, this is how much it costs. We say the investment would be this. It is an investment. It’s the number one ROI on your home. The number one investment more than your kitchens or bathrooms is your garage. Remodel magazine six years in a row, an unbiased third party. So we teach them the words to say, we monitor this. We’ve got systems that record the whole conversation in the garage with the client. That’s for the client’s best interest, but it’s also to coach.

We say kneel down when you’re doing when you’re presenting you don’t want to be above the customer because you make them feel inferior There’s a lot of things that we try to do and when I played football We did two a days we practiced ten times a week to play one game So in business, why shouldn’t we do the same thing or should we go after you train? You’re just gonna go practice on the customer’s house forever And I don’t know about you, but I like nice things that last I’ve gone with the cheapest

to fix my house when I did a remodel in 2012. I’ll never go at the best price again. Because I had to redo the roof after five years. I’m on my third AC unit. I just want the best. I don’t want to have to worry about it. think homeowners are smart. They’re like, you know what? What’s the… And what if you had a magic moment where you said, you know what I care about the most? I care that my kids could go to school. And I care that my wife makes it to work on time. Because that’s what we miss today.

So you called the best option. This is to keep the kids coming to school on time and make sure your wife gets to work. And there’s these magic moments and you title the estimates exactly what the client cares about. And you title it, this is the one that’ll give you the best investment for moving in five years and making sure you’re graduate or last. Because they say, I’m gonna move in five years. So you say, listen, we don’t need you to do the Taj Mahal. Out of the five options, let’s do number four.

John Jantsch (14:03.428)

you

John Jantsch (14:27.62)

I actually recently put in two new garage door openers and it’s been a while since I had replaced one and they’ve gotten a lot more technical. There’s a heck of lot of bells and whistles in those things. mean, the price range is, you know, three, four X. You you can buy the cheapest one to the Taj Mahal. It’s gotten a lot more sophisticated, hasn’t it?

Tommy Mello (14:51.352)

Yeah, now you know, that’s the deal. They got the my queue. The the opener’s got a brain. And the brain will tell you know we’ve we’ve worked out a pretty good opportunity with the manufacturer that will know if you got a problem before you do and will just come out. We guarantee one hour service that if something it’s got this thing called a force adjustment, so if it comes down on something or comes off track, will know about it. And.

John Jantsch (14:54.936)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:11.736)

Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy Mello (15:17.464)

That’s gotta be nice for you because before you know that you got a problem or showing up saying let us look at everything and make sure everything’s okay.

John Jantsch (15:24.324)

Yeah. My favorite attribute is I know when the door opens. And so, you know, I’ll be in here and I have my office in my house and my wife will go grocery shopping. I know it’s time to go down there and get the groceries out of the car. I don’t even have to hear it. Talk a little bit about skilled labor. mean, people, you know, people aren’t coming out of high school today thinking I want to go be a carpenter or, you know, whatever electrician.

Tommy Mello (15:38.36)

Yeah, that was great.

John Jantsch (15:53.39)

nearly enough, I think, to meet the demand. So what have you done to, really kind of shore up that you hire for, like you say, you know, personality or fit, but they still have to be able to install something. They still have to be able to fix something. What are you doing to kind of shore up that, that end of it?

Tommy Mello (16:11.874)

Well, we spend 12 % of our revenue on marketing, okay? So if we do 25 million, we’re spending a few million dollars a month in marketing. So we’re in Val Pak, all over website optimization, we, Clipper Magazine, the newspaper, PFP Deals, Angie, every lead aggregator out there, we’re on TV, radio, billboards. The idea is why not put the recruiting ad into some of these?

And say, at A1 Graduates, you’ve always known us for great service, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now we’re looking for more. You want to do two in one. You want to do the marketing and the recruiting in the same message. And then you want to have this massive funnel that chops, chops, chops, chops. Every time it chops down to this smaller amount, it’s refining, refining, refining, refining. Here’s what I do know. Artificial intelligence and robotics are not going to replace

Garage doors HVAC plumbing electrical roofing anytime soon. No one’s gonna come out with a robot and install windows But I’ll tell you what this camera stuff we’re working on the the drones and the different things They’re all gonna be AI AI is gonna fix everything left brain AI is like handling here soon Development coding everybody said hey go into coding go into coding. Well AI is gonna fit you’re not gonna have a job So these blue collar things that were shit on for a long time Like man, it was embarrassing if you were H a

John Jantsch (17:17.166)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:31.299)

You

Tommy Mello (17:39.194)

I do. a plumber. Now it’s like you’re beating your chair. You’re like, I’m a plumber, baby. It’s like our day. This is our time. And I think the word’s getting out there. Like the average plumber is 49 years old. And now you got this amazing amount of people going, look, I don’t think I was cut out to go to college and go into debt for $200,000 because I don’t really know if I want to go into economics or accounting. And I don’t know if my future, what the future holds there. So I do know that

John Jantsch (17:42.82)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (18:09.238)

No one’s going to be fixing anything on the home at least for a decade. I don’t think this robot’s going to be coming out and doing it for a while. So I think people are starting to understand that and they’re starting to say, I don’t want to go into debt. We pay to train you. You come to work for A1, you’re to get paid a very healthy living to get trained. then if you can’t make two grand a week, shame on you your first year. If you can’t make three grand a week on year two, shame on you.

We’re going to give you the tools. pay for the tools. We’re to give you a brand new van. We’re going to give you training. We’re going to give you role play. We’re going to make you, you know, we’re going to give you a flexible schedule. We’re going to make sure your wife and kids are bought in. It’s typically a man going out to do the work. We’ve hired over 20 female technicians. Unfortunately, it’s a harder job on the body than most realize, but it’s a really rewarding job. And I think the more we can share the stories, we’ve got a full-time dream manager. Their job is to help people dream.

John Jantsch (19:06.02)

Hmm.

Tommy Mello (19:09.21)

What do you want out of life? Do you want to go on that big vacation? Do you want to buy a home or a second home or a third home? What does that mean needs to happen? Well, it means these need to be your KPIs. And when I talk to you, I just say, listen, you ever you told me you want to take your kids to Disney World First Class, let’s skip all the lines. Do you realize if we just if you had a little bit higher conversion rate and I’ll show you exactly what you need to do to do that, that you would make that happen this year? So you talk about

What’s in it for them again? they don’t care that, hey, Tommy sits down with them and he wants to make more money to the bottom line and you’re gonna be on a performance improvement plan. No one cares about that. They care about like, what about me? What about my family? What about the people I care about? Like, I took a chance working for you. Why don’t you teach me more? But you gotta remind them. You gotta remind them about their why and what it means to their life in the future. And hopefully you’ll hire the right people that have plans. Because some people go through life

I just say I’m okay being mediocre.

John Jantsch (20:11.268)

Well, Tommy, run out of time, but I appreciate again, you stopping by. Very inspirational as always. I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. there some place you want to invite people to find out more about? I know you’ve got a variety of different interests and things you’re involved in, but what’s the best way for people to find out more about what you’re doing?

Tommy Mello (20:32.514)

Yeah, if you just go to Tommy mellow, there’s no w at the end of my name. So Tommy e l l o dot com. You see all my social media, my books, everything’s there. And if you go to Tommy mellow dot com for slash shop, you can do a shop tour. I don’t charge anything. If you ever get find yourself in Phoenix or want to come out here. It’s a great experience. It’s a way to pay it forward like everybody did for me when when I was coming up in the home service home improvement space.

It’s a way for me to brag on the team and it’s a way for me to help you because I do believe that if you help people it comes back tenfold. I think that Zig Zayler said you could have anything you want in life if you help enough people get what they want. And I’m a true believer of that. I really am. So if anybody needs anything reach out to me. I got 80 ways from Sunday to reach me. I’ve got a full-time team, a massive team these days that make sure that it gets that I’m aware of the comments and questions. So

I appreciate this podcast and I’m looking forward to having you on.

John Jantsch (21:34.583)

Likewise, we’re gonna record back to back today. again, thank you for taking a few moments to share with our audience and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Tommy Mello (21:44.42)

Sounds great, appreciate you.

Solving the Marketing Leadership Gap for Small Business

Solving the Marketing Leadership Gap for Small Business written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I tackle a critical topic that small businesses face today: the marketing leadership gap. Many small businesses struggle with disconnected marketing efforts, scattered strategies, and stagnant growth, not due to a lack of tactics but because they lack marketing leadership to tie it all together.

As we look ahead to the future of marketing in 2025, I dive into why traditional solutions—like hiring agencies or fractional CMOs—often fall short and what businesses must do to implement a long-term marketing strategy that drives sustainable business growth. This episode uncovers how a marketing system combined with leadership can transform small businesses into scalable, successful enterprises.

Key Takeaways:

Most small businesses fail at marketing not because of a lack of tools or tactics but because of a marketing leadership gap.
Strong marketing leadership ensures all efforts align with business goals and drive measurable growth.
Fix foundational issues first: improve messaging, optimize your website, and focus on building trust through content marketing.
Implement a repeatable marketing system that delivers consistent, long-term results.
Treat marketing as an asset, not a cost, to increase business value and make your company more attractive for future opportunities.
Marketing leadership as a service (e.g., fractional CMOs) offers small businesses and agencies an affordable way to gain strategic guidance.
AI can improve marketing execution but cannot replace the leadership and strategy required for success.
Agencies should shift their approach to think like architects of marketing systems, not just contractors executing tasks.
Businesses must focus on long-term marketing strategies instead of quick, disconnected efforts.
Closing the marketing leadership gap will help small businesses achieve sustainable business growth and success in 2025 and beyond.

Chapters:

[01:50] The Leadership Gap in Marketing
[02:57] Why Marketing Leadership Matters
[03:39] Steps to Fix Marketing Leadership Gap
[08:48] Marketing Leadership as a Service

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Nobody does data better than Oracle. Train your AI models at twice the speed and less than half of the cost of other clouds. If you want to do more and spend less, take a free test drive at Oracle.

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.04)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and no guest today. I am doing a solo show. Let’s call this Solving the Marketing Leadership Gap for Small Business. How’s that sound like for a lofty title? Now I could also, we’re ending, depending upon when you’re listening, we’re coming to the end of 2024. I could also title this what I think the future of marketing is, whether you’re an agency or whether you’re a small business owner trying to market your

business. Let me ask you this. Have ever felt your marketing stuck? Have you ever told your agency marketing stuck? Like it’s disconnected, it’s scattered, it’s not driving growth. Look, you’re not alone. I hear that every single day. So that’s what we’re going to talk about. Why I think that happens and what your business can do to fix it. We’re going to explore an issue. I’m not selling anything today. We’re going to explore an issue that I probably will be selling.

solutions more directly for, but I want to get, I want to dive into what I think is at the crux of where we’re going. There’s a lot. I’ve said this earlier in my, I did do a 2025 trends post and I’ve said this a lot. think 2025 is going to make 2020, the change of 2024 pale in comparison. I think we’re going to see so much change that happens with businesses and we’re already seeing it. I’m hearing from agencies.

and business owners saying, hey, something’s going on out there. I’m not getting the leads. I’m not getting the traffic to my website. So I think we’re going to see a big shift in the winners and the losers, if I can say it that way. So look, hopefully you’ve got some big goals for your business, but here’s the missing thing. You’re lacking internal marketing leadership to guide those goals.

Let me focus on that word again, leadership. You might have internal marketing, you might have internal marketing hires, you might have hired an agency that is doing amazing job with your marketing or some aspect of your marketing, but you’re lacking leadership. You’ve got a website, maybe you’re running some ads, posting on social media, but nothing feels very connected and you’re not really seeing the results, right? So the traditional solutions, I already talked about them. Hire an agency.

John Jantsch (02:27.416)

that’s probably going to be very focused on execution, hire full-time marketing leader, maybe a CMO or fractional CMO, maybe pretty expensive. Right. And then the DIY, which hopefully you’ve realized that’s a tough road, right? You don’t have the time. You don’t have the expertise. It’s probably taking you away from the things that really do matter in your business. If you’re going to move your business forward, I’m not saying marketing doesn’t matter. There just might be higher payoff things that you’re more suited.

to do. Most businesses fail at marketing because they lack not because they lack tactics, but they fail because they lack leadership really to tie it all together. And I think that that is been really a theme. Now I’ve, you know, for 30 years, certainly the 20 plus years I’ve been doing this podcast, I’ve been talking about strategy before tactics, and that is a big piece of it. But there’s also a leadership

component. I think you need somebody to take ownership of that strategy and sure that really every marketing effort aligns with your growth goals. It’s not about doing more. It’s about doing the right things in the right order. Number one, developing a marketing strategy, but then having somebody that is there to help you fix the foundational issues really to tie it all together to orchestrate it. A lot of times, you know, when we start working with somebody,

before we can really do much for them in terms of growth or even in brand is we have to get their messaging right. We have to actually, in most cases, redo their brochure website and turn it actually into a sales asset. We have to talk about content that is educational and trust building. And once we get through that foundation, then we need to actually build a repeatable marketing system. One that ensures you’re not just throwing money at the next new thing.

You’re building a machine that works long term. So that’s the component that I think marketing leadership brings. It’s not just somebody that says, this is what we ought to do. This is how we ought to price it. This is how we ought to talk about our products and services. That’s great to have that strategy, that component. But you also need somebody who is really then orchestrating on that. So breaking it down, you need the strategy first, right? Clear path, aligned goals, customer needs.

John Jantsch (04:54.82)

Identify what’s missing, what needs fixing. Then you need to have those foundational issues fixed. Then you need to build a system. And then you actually need to start thinking about marketing as an asset in your business. And by that, mean, you need to start hiring and training a team to take over and keep that system running. that’s, know, if you think about it, if you went out there and hired, you were at a point where you’re like, gosh, we need to take marketing seriously. We need to hire some marketing leadership.

we need to hire a marketing manager. We need to hire a marketing fractional CMO. Well, that person would come in and hopefully you develop a strategy and nine times out of 10 there, they’d say, okay, who are we going to get to do the work? Because I’m, I’m not writing the emails. That’s not my job. and so whether it’s going to be a third party or you’re going to actually bring somebody, in and hire and train those OREX or have your marketing leader hire and train those folks. that’s really what I think the

I think that the agency model today is just what I’m starting to call marketing leadership as a service. So that includes strategy development, foundation fixes, then installing that system and then training and handing off into your business somebody who can actually run that system. That’s the piece that’s really been missing. know, people have either hired somebody one off, didn’t really know what to tell them to do. They got a little result, but it seemed

seem like they weren’t getting anything or they’ve hired an agency. Same thing. Nobody was directing them. Or maybe they’ve hired somebody to come in and build a strategy, but then nobody to really execute that. So, marketing leadership, I believe, is the missing link for most small businesses. And I believe that agencies today, if you are an agency, a consultant, marketing strategist out there listening, this idea of selling marketing leadership

as a service, I hope actually set some bells off and in some cases alarm bells, because this is what the market needs. And I think that you’re going to find not only are people going to want it, they’re going to want to pay a premium or expect to pay a premium for that person who can bring leadership. AI cannot provide strategy. AI cannot provide leadership. Agencies need to start thinking like

John Jantsch (07:17.368)

architects as opposed to contractors don’t do the work. AI is actually going to do a lot of the specialized work. But that leadership component that is executing on a strategy that is building a marketing system, that’s what’s missing. And I’ve been saying marketing is a system, as I said, for 25 years. However, we’re really getting to the point where that’s a very tangible idea. For a lot of folks,

It’s still even though they agreed with me marketing is a system It felt like a vague idea because really what you were doing was plugging people in to do things And it felt very much like traditional marketing but I believe that we are on the crux of or the what’s a better way to say that the precipice. that’s a good word precipice of This idea that we can in fact finally install a marketing system

in a business because of AI and because we are taking this idea as marketing leadership, as a service, as the missing ingredient. So next time you feel like your marketing isn’t working, ask yourself, do I have any leadership? Do I have a system in place to make it work? If not, that’s the first thing you need to fix. But if this conversation resonated with you, stay tuned. We are going to in 2025.

have a very set step one, step two, step three, step four, that really focuses on positioning what we do as bringing this to small midsize businesses. So stay tuned. If you like this idea, if you’re an agency consultant, if you’re a business owner and you like this idea, just reach out to John at ducttapemarketing.com and tell me you like the idea, you want to hear more. And I will tell you how we can actually build marketing as an asset in your business, not

as a cost, not as an expense in your business. It actually can be something that will make your business more valuable, not just because you’ll grow revenue and get more customers, because you’ll be able to show somebody. Let’s say you want to exit your business, you’ll be able to show somebody here’s how our marketing system works. And that can be one of the most valuable things you can do in your business. So take care. If you’re listening to this post 2025, have a happy new year.

John Jantsch (09:41.372)

Happy end of the year and let’s make 2025 rock. Hopefully we’ll see you one of these days out there on the road.

How the Right Creators Can Transform Your B2B Marketing

How the Right Creators Can Transform Your B2B Marketing written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Nick Bennett

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Nick Bennett, a pioneering expert in B2B influencer marketing who’s reshaping how companies approach digital marketing strategies. As a co-founder of TACK and author of B2B Influencer Marketing: Work With Creators to Generate Authentic and Effective Marketing, Bennett reveals the transformative power of authentic creator partnerships in today’s competitive business landscape.

The conversation uncovers a critical shift in B2B marketing: moving from traditional, corporate-driven approaches to a more human-centric, creator-powered strategy that drives real business results. Bennett’s insights demonstrate how the right creators can become powerful catalysts for brand awareness, lead generation, and revenue growth.

Key Takeaways:

Micro-Influencers Matter: The sweet spot for B2B influencers is 10,000 to 50,000 followers
Authentic Partnerships Are Everything: Partnerships should be collaborative, not transactional
Strategic Influencer Marketing Drives Real Results: Integrate influencer strategies into broader marketing efforts
The Creator Economy is Transforming B2B Marketing: Leverage subject matter experts who have credible industry voice
Technology Enables Smarter Influencer Strategies: Focus on mastering AI tools rather than fearing them

Chapters:

[01:02] Who is Nick Bennett?
[01:40] Defining Influencer Marketing in B2B vs B2C
[03:51] Best Practices for B2B Marketing and Influencer Integration
[06:48] Challenges and Misconceptions in B2B Influencer Marketing
[08:48] Successful Product Launch with Influencer Program
[11:34] Effectiveness and Authenticity in Influencer Partnerships
[15:23] Navigating Global Influencer Marketing
[18:47] Niche Focus and Controversial Content for Engagement

More About Nick Bennett:

Check out Nick Bennett’s Website
Connect with Nick Bennett on LinkedIn
Read B2B Influencer Marketing: Work With Creators to Generate Authentic and Effective Marketing by Nick Bennett

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Nobody does data better than Oracle. Train your AI models at twice the speed and less than half of the cost of other clouds. If you want to do more and spend less, take a free test drive at Oracle.

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.17)

Welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Nick Bennett. He’s a co-founder of TACK, a media network and go-to-market firm, helping businesses convert demand into revenue through their people-first GTM model. With over a decade of experience in B2B tech industry, Nick specializes in crafting innovative go-to-market strategies. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today.

John Jantsch (00:28.25)

B2B influencer marketing, work with creators to generate authentic and effective marketing. So, Nick, welcome to the show.

Nick Bennett (00:36.198)

Thank you so much for having me. Excited to be here.

John Jantsch (00:38.69)

So let’s define influencer marketing. I suspect that people would have different definitions of what that means or perceptions of what that is. How do you describe it when you tell somebody about your book and they say, what’s influencer marketing?

Nick Bennett (00:42.748)

Nick Bennett (00:53.2)

Yeah, so I think in B2B, it’s a little bit different than B2C. I think that’s the first thing that we have to tackle. But in B2B specifically, I think an influencer is someone who holds authority or credibility within a specific industry. So they could be a subject matter expert, they could be a creator, they could be a practitioner. There are people who share valuable insights. They have a loyal, engaged following of an audience on different social media platforms.

John Jantsch (00:56.474)

Yes. Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:19.302)

So I think a lot of people, especially when you talk about in the B2C world, naturally think of Peyton Manning, Kim Kardashian, I don’t know, some of the folks that show up that way. But really, I’m guessing in the B2B space, it might be somebody you’ve never heard of, but 1,000 people think that he or she knows everything. mean, is that kind of micro audience pretty significant?

Nick Bennett (01:43.484)

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that’s the big thing in B2B. It’s not the million person follower counts that matter. It’s that kind of like 10,000 to 50,000 follower range. That is like the sweet spot in B2B.

John Jantsch (01:58.19)

In fact, would you go as far as saying, I know this is a blanket statement, so there’s holes in it, but would you go as far as saying that traditional celebrity endorsements really are not going to work in B2B?

Nick Bennett (02:10.414)

absolutely. I’ve

Nick Bennett (02:11.554)

seen B2B companies try to specifically at events and it just hasn’t worked, which is why I think so many people are turning to working with creators. And I should mention there is a difference between creators and influences. So everyone can become a creator. You and I are both creators, but not every creator has influence. in B2B, you shouldn’t self-dub yourself in influence. So just like B2C, people can do that because it’s just what is known, but there’s such a misunderstanding of

Nick Bennett (02:38.714)

what a creator and what an influencer is in B2B. And that’s everything that I’ve been trying to battle for the last couple of years.

John Jantsch (02:45.744)

Yeah, it’s really more than to get somebody excited. Like you bring to your CMO, we need to do influencer marketing in all sense. Like, no, you know, that’s not for us, right?

Nick Bennett (02:54.908)

Exactly.

John Jantsch (02:57.327)

So what are some of the best practices or strategies that B2B marketers should employ?

Nick Bennett (03:02.362)

Yeah, well, I think it’s figuring out what are the outcomes that you want to achieve. And so when you think about, know, hey, I’m going to deploy this as a tactic because it’s interesting. Creators and influencers can be used as its own channel, but it can also be used as a tactic within other channels that you’re already running, like events and social and things like that. So I think it’s understanding what are, what does success mean for us?

Nick Bennett (03:29.742)

in aligning your goals around that. So when I think of like, what are the core KPIs of what success actually means, it could be engagement metrics. So again, if you’re going to go on LinkedIn, for example, and partner with people to drive brand awareness, you care about the likes, the comments, the shares, how many people are driving traffic to my website. If you care about reaching impressions, hey, I’m trying to get into manufacturing, tech for manufacturing. It’s like, I care about

Nick Bennett (03:58.588)

the size of the audience reach within that specific industry. Then you’ve got the lead gen side, which is like, all right, number of inquiries, signups, pipeline growth. Like you could use that for a PLG motion. And then revenue impact. Are you directly or influencing sales as someone that is promoting a service? Cause it’s not like B2C where it’s like, Hey, go buy this, you know, $20 hair straightener. It’s, Hey,

Nick Bennett (04:22.298)

you don’t go buy this $50,000 piece of tech that you’re going to use in your stack. It’s a big difference. And so a lot of people, unfortunately, are promoting stuff and they’re not using it. And so you build trust with your audience and then you promote stuff and they believe you. And it just leaves a lot of people disappointed. So when I look to partner with brands or I’m working to build programs,

Nick Bennett (04:46.3)

you have to use the product. I’m not saying you have to use it for years, but you can’t just go into a partnership without using the product.

John Jantsch (04:54.064)

So you mentioned different metrics, so there would be different objectives possibly, right? I mean, somebody might want to create awareness. like, I’m going to sponsor this podcast so people start hearing about us. Or I’m going to sponsor this techie webinar because I want to create demand. mean, would that be a true statement?

Nick Bennett (05:16.056)

Absolutely. And I think it’s a great way when you can figure out, multiple, it’s, you don’t want to silo things. So when you can make it part of a larger part of your integrated strategy, makes sense. I’ll give you good example of that. I had an old podcast called the anonymous market and it’s no longer going, but Google actually used to sponsor that podcast. And I was like, all right, why would Google want to sponsor my podcast? You know, it’s, it was Google cloud and we ended up integrating it into a lot of different pieces. So there was the podcast, there was the social media aspect.

John Jantsch (05:39.12)

Yeah.

Nick Bennett (05:45.808)

There was actually webinars. So it was a much more than like, hey, we just want to sponsor the podcast to get more awareness out there. Like they don’t need the awareness. They were trying to tap into specific audiences in certain parts of the, the U S actually.

John Jantsch (06:00.048)

Yeah, yeah. So what have you found are some of the challenges or limitations of B2B? So we talked a little bit about best practices, but what are some of the realities in some of the limitations for B2B companies?

Nick Bennett (06:15.3)

I think a lot of people just still don’t know how this works or how that you should be operating or building a program from this. Like so, so often I talk to CMOs and founders and they’re like, I want to do influence of marketing. And I’m just like, okay, like, what do you want to do? And they’re just like, I don’t know. I want to do a LinkedIn post. Now the issue is you’re going to go partner with say five people, do a LinkedIn post. You’re going to get some hype that, that day. Maybe you’re launching on product taunts or you’re doing new product, whatever it is. The issue is.

Nick Bennett (06:43.77)

a lot of brands don’t do anything with that content after they have that lightning strike for that one day. And then everything goes away because just like, just like real life social media, like all that stuff disappears in about 24 hours. And so then what, and I think that’s the biggest issue is so many CMOs and marketing leaders are disappointed in their spend because they’re like, it’s not, it’s not impacting sales. It’s not impacting, you know, signups. And it’s just like, you can’t just do a one-off thing and think it’s going to change the world here. This is something that

Nick Bennett (07:13.402)

It has to become a program and it has to be bought in from the top down and be part of your integrated strategy.

John Jantsch (07:20.814)

Yeah, and really, you know, I’ve heard a lot of people talk about, know, especially in B2B, that you’re not looking at this as an endorsement. It’s more of a partnership, right?

Nick Bennett (07:29.436)

And you nailed that word partnership because that’s still what people still aren’t sure. just like, I want to do a one-off thing. It’s very transactional. And one of the things that I work on in championing it as well is people first. it’s like, okay, people first, the core of what people first actually means is partner driven, ecosystem driven. so creators and influencers play a big piece of that.

Nick Bennett (07:53.542)

But it’s still, there’s so much education that still has to be done because we’re very much in the early adopter phase, at least in tech for B2B.

John Jantsch (08:02.534)

So I’ll put you on the spot a little bit. Can you think of a, could you give an example of what, you know, what a typical successful campaign like this would look like? mean, pick whatever medium or you don’t have to even name names. You can even just kind of give us a, you know, a fake case study.

Nick Bennett (08:19.386)

Yeah, no, no, I have a real one I can use for sure. So we actually partnered with a company called Path Factory. They’re in the of kind of content repository world, but they were building an AI product, know, surprise, everyone’s building an AI product. And it was like an, exactly. And it was an AI chat bot. And so they were launching that, but they had to launch it.

John Jantsch (08:21.669)

Okay.

John Jantsch (08:34.086)

Even if they aren’t.

Nick Bennett (08:44.302)

literally in a two week window because they were acquiring another company and they needed like they needed this product to fit in here before they announced the acquisition of that company. So they came to us and one of the things they said, you hey, we need you to build the whole brand narrative positioning messaging, but we also want you to build an influencer program to be able to get the awareness out there because it was kind of like a PLG play. So it was part PLG, like they needed the signups, but they also needed the awareness piece of it.

John Jantsch (08:48.848)

Mm.

Nick Bennett (09:13.764)

And within a week, I was able to get them about 15 people. were like, listen, I have a $5,000 budget on what we can spend on paying these creators to create LinkedIn posts. was solely LinkedIn. And I went out, found these people, got their approval, built this entire program. We went live and it was one of their most successful launches that they’ve had. And it’s actually still going really, really well. And now they’ve actually adopted an entire.

Nick Bennett (09:39.63)

influencer program and they’re hiring an actual person to like manage this all for them now. But we did the whole thing in two weeks from like start to finish and it was like, I don’t recommend anyone do that. with what we had to do, I’m very happy with the results.

John Jantsch (09:48.688)

Yes.

John Jantsch (09:52.72)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (09:58.726)

So one of the challenges probably is fit, AT &T sponsored my, I’m just gonna say this, I’m gonna go out on a limb and say it, AT &T sponsored my podcast for about a year and I wasn’t really a fan of AT &T, frankly. I probably wasn’t a great fit. I mean, I didn’t do anything to tarnish the brand or anything, but I didn’t have any passion for it. How much of that do you believe needs to be there?

John Jantsch (10:28.518)

Does somebody need to be a champion or does somebody need to, or is it basically, if they’re going to pay me, I’ll say what they need me to say.

Nick Bennett (10:36.444)

Well, the issue is there’s so many people that are now under the mindset where, if they’re going to pay me, I didn’t realize I could get paid for this type of stuff, which is, which is hurting a lot of the original people that have been doing this like me and others. Exactly. And that’s the issue because then it’s, it’s false advertising because you don’t use the product. You’re promoting it. I’m going to go buy that. And then I’m going to be mad that, you know, Joe told me to go buy this and now it’s a terrible product, but

John Jantsch (10:44.024)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:48.624)

Yeah, they were just like, I love this product. You should see it. Right.

John Jantsch (11:01.168)

Right?

Nick Bennett (11:04.9)

In my mind, and what I tell everyone that I work with, and even in the book, it’s like, you have to believe in the mission. Maybe it’s not the mission of the company, but the mission of the category. Because if you’re not a believer of the category and what you’re looking to solve, then you’re never going to be bought into anything. And like I said, you have to use the product. Because as a marketer myself, I don’t partner with any brand where they won’t let me use the product. And I want to see how I can fit it into my regular life.

John Jantsch (11:28.974)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Nick Bennett (11:32.132)

I did just one recently with this company called Tango, small company, but they basically, what they do is they help you create, you know, SOPs for different. Yeah. And fantastic product. And so like, I started using it because I’m just a two person business and we have worked with a lot of contractors and I started to map out all these things. I was like, wow, this is fantastic. And I feel like it comes across so more human, so more authentic in the content that you create when you can actually use it.

John Jantsch (11:38.66)

Yeah, yeah, I’m familiar with it, yeah, Yep.

John Jantsch (11:58.192)

Yeah, yeah, no, I agree 100%. In the early days of influencer marketing, it was, know, people were used to controlling the message, right? And so in the early days, people were very freaked out by the fact that, somebody else is gonna, who’s not an employee is gonna talk about us and we’re gonna pay him. You know, how much risk or exposure, you know, do people still feel is a part of this?

Nick Bennett (12:07.1)

Thank

Nick Bennett (12:22.448)

I don’t think there’s much anymore. Every brand that I’ve worked with and talked to, they have ultimately write a refusal on like, does the content go live or not? But they are lessening the guardrails and they say, listen, I want you to bring your creative freedom. That’s why we’re paying to work with you. We don’t wanna dictate what you should write because that’s not human. so every…

Nick Bennett (12:46.384)

I’m working on one right now where I’m going through and I’m kind of thinking about it and I sent it to the brand and they were like, well, we want you to spin it more like this. And I was just like, no, that’s not how this works because you’re trying to dictate my point of view, which is that that’s not how I feel. And so we actually ended up ending the partnership because they were trying to put words in my mouth a little bit and I didn’t want those words to come out.

John Jantsch (13:05.851)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:10.01)

Yeah. Yeah. I personally, we do a lot of sponsors on this show and I personally like it when a brand says, here’s the talking points, but we want you to say it like you would say it as opposed to read this script. I, and personally, I know for a fact, comes off more authentic when I just make it up. Yeah. Yeah.

Nick Bennett (13:29.756)

100%. I’m the same way. I feel like

Nick Bennett (13:31.787)

it’s it’s so much more conversational versus like, you robotic. It’s like, it’s just like, you know, AI has made content creation so easy today. It’s so easy to spot on social media what’s written with AI and not. So we don’t, we don’t need that when people are, you know, doing podcasts, webinars, things like that.

John Jantsch (13:44.358)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:50.372)

Yeah. Yeah. Especially the comments on LinkedIn. Those are painful. What about the international market? I know that, you again, sometimes, you know, you’re in your little bubble, you know, who the people in your space are, you know, you start going out globally. How do you find those? How do you connect? You know, maybe in some cases, you know, you’ve got obviously language, you know, issues or not issues, but challenges. So how, you know, how do you, how do brands kind of

Nick Bennett (13:52.86)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:20.154)

manage that if that’s goal.

Nick Bennett (14:23.534)

Yeah, I think it’s something they’re still trying to figure out. There’s one brand in particular called Cognizm. They’re like a data provider in the UK, and they do influencer marketing really, really well. They’ve been doing it for like seven years. Fantastic job. They have an entire program. But they were running into a similar issue where they were like, it’s hard to find people globally if you’re based in another part of the world. And it’s just like, what if you know…

John Jantsch (14:30.704)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Bennett (14:49.936)

The way I talk about something is not the same way that you talk about something. How do you get that to come across in a different tone? but marketplaces have made it really easy to, find people to partner with. And that was something that was always lacking in B2B and B2C. You could go find influencer marketing, you know, marketplaces like, Hey, I want to find someone that talks about AI and tech. Boom. Here’s a hundred people that I could go partner with through this platform. Now B2B hasn’t really had that up until about.

Nick Bennett (15:19.67)

six months or eight months ago. So many have tried, but they couldn’t figure out how to monetize that. And now a few brands have created these marketplaces where they play matchmaker. And they pair, regardless of where you are in the world, you with different types of creators based on the filters that you want. And I’ve been waiting for this for so long because outside of that, you just had to go on LinkedIn or X and find these people and just send them a cold message.

Nick Bennett (15:46.714)

And these platforms have made it a lot easier to facilitate the outreach, to facilitate the campaign actually happening, the reporting, all of that stuff.

John Jantsch (15:56.304)

So let’s flip it around a little bit. I’ve been talking mostly about how businesses would use this. But if I’m a content creator and I think, hey, I want to get in on this influencer action, how do I get myself identified as a potential influencer?

Nick Bennett (16:09.946)

You just got to show up every single day. So I’ve been creating LinkedIn on LinkedIn now for five years, every single day. think most I’ve taken a couple of weeks off over the last five years, mostly around the holidays or if I went on vacation, but I have showed up every single day and it’s repetition, it’s consistency. think that all pays off. Like you don’t have to have the biggest number of followers. I only have like 53,000 followers, but I have an engaged audience of people that actually care what I have to say.

John Jantsch (16:15.002)

Right. Yeah.

Nick Bennett (16:39.308)

And again, what I’ve said has changed over those five years. When I started five years ago, I was a field marketer. was an event marketer for early stage tech companies in-house doing my thing. And I would talk about that. Then I started talking about account-based marketing and customer marketing. And then about a year and a half ago, went out on my own with my partner, who was my former CMO at our last company. And now we champion everything around People First and the creator economy and things like that. But again,

Nick Bennett (17:07.312)

I’ve got to a point where it doesn’t matter what I write or what I have to say. There’s going to be people that support me. I could say the sky is blue and it’s going to be still people that support me even though that adds no value, but it’s because I’ve done it so consistently over the last five years.

John Jantsch (17:21.69)

Yeah, so you’ve got to move beyond hobby, amateur, to GoPro. Would you say that it’s probably useful to pick a niche or to pick a point of view or to pick a very specific topic so that you can, you you may not have a million followers, but for people who do X, you you’re it.

Nick Bennett (17:25.198)

Yes.

Nick Bennett (17:44.38)

It’s a loaded question because there’s going to be people that will debate both sides of it. I personally will say yes, because for me, as a field marketer and event marketer originally starting, that was my niche and it was so impactful the amount of DMs I got from people that was like, hey, I can relate. Thank you. Now, there is some people that say, you don’t need to just talk about whatever you want.

John Jantsch (17:48.42)

Yeah, yeah.

Nick Bennett (18:08.92)

It’s again, going back to AI, AI has made it so easy to create content. You’re not going to stand out if you just talk about random stuff and you’re just starting out. You have to have a strong POV and you have to stand for something. And if you don’t stand for something and cannot kind of add your own spin to it, you’re just going to get lost in all those other people that just, you know, throwing up posts every once in a while.

John Jantsch (18:29.54)

Yeah, yeah, there’s no question. mean, you, you, you see it all the time. The people who have the most reactions, positive and negative, you know, are saying stuff that’s kind of polarizing. Right.

Nick Bennett (18:39.324)

Yeah, it’s

Nick Bennett (18:40.524)

you know, there’s there’s this guy out there. You know, he’s he’s fantastic person Adam Robinson He’s the founder of our RB to be and he always puts controversial stuff on LinkedIn and like he’ll start like LinkedIn like Beefs with people it’s so so interesting. Like there’s so many like LinkedIn beefs now but like he is very controversial and like there’s people that will go off like negatively in his stuff and positive but

John Jantsch (18:55.493)

Yeah.

Nick Bennett (19:05.68)

He gets so much engagement on every single one of his posts because people know like, Adam’s gonna post something that is gonna like set some people off.

John Jantsch (19:14.842)

Yeah, that’s funny. I often sometimes this can come off as a lame question, but I often like to kind of wrap up interviews with talking about giving you an opportunity to talk about like what’s next? What’s coming? You know, for what’s the future look like?

Nick Bennett (19:28.764)

Yeah, you know, honestly, I should say, you know, I had no intention of ever writing a book when the publisher reached out and was like, hey, you want to write a book? This was a year and a half ago. And I was like, not really. And they convinced me to do it. And I missed so many deadlines. I have three small kids. I have a six year old and 19 month old twin girls. And so I was like,

John Jantsch (19:46.296)

wow.

Nick Bennett (19:50.148)

yeah, you know, I’ll do it. And then I missed multiple deadlines. They canceled the book on me twice. They’re like, you’re not taking this seriously enough. was like, well, hold on. I never wanted to write the book. You guys stepped on trying to push me to do this. And so finally, you know, we’re here and it’s out. like, I will never write another book, at least not like a published book, maybe self-published. they are like, are on you like hawks. And for me, like, you know, tack and just everything that we’re working on, like,

John Jantsch (19:58.798)

Yeah.

Nick Bennett (20:19.888)

I’ll continue to champion the creator economy, but like the broader umbrella of that is people first and how do we get people to think about the company first mindset, which was like the old school way of doing things and moving to more of a human way, which again, creators and influencers plays a huge piece in, but that’ll be everything that kind of, you at least for the next couple of years that I continue to push forward.

John Jantsch (20:43.408)

Well, and I think we’re, you know, I’ve been talking a lot about, think we’ve been, you know, we see change every year, but I think the pace of change increases every year. And I think AI has just thrown gasoline on that, certainly. And so I think that what you’re talking about is I think we’re going to see, I’ve been doing this 30 years, and I think we’re going to see a return to that, you know, people, I mean, that’s, you know, all the control is going to the buyer.

John Jantsch (21:11.59)

in the marketing world and I think that the human connection is going to be more important than ever.

Nick Bennett (21:17.18)

100%. Well, and one more piece to that is like, I’m not saying that you shouldn’t use AI. I use AI every day. Now, it’s going to be, know, so many people, marketers are afraid that AI is going to take their job. No, it’s going to be the marketers that learn how to master AI to use it to do the tasks that they don’t want to do. That’s who’s going to take your job.

John Jantsch (21:34.726)

That’s right.

John Jantsch (21:36.407)

Yeah, yeah. That’s what I tell people all the time. It’s not AI. It’s another marketer who’s just as strategic as you that’s using it. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Nick, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there somewhere you’d invite people to connect with you and find a copy of B2B Influencer Market?

Nick Bennett (21:38.48)

you

Nick Bennett (21:44.323)

Exactly.

Nick Bennett (21:57.338)

Yeah, connect with me on LinkedIn. I post a lot about it there. I have a bunch of links where you can find it on Amazon, Kogan Page, Barnes and Noble, all those websites. So find me on LinkedIn, DM me. Always happy to chat with new people and appreciate you having me.

John Jantsch (22:14.298)

You bet. Again, thanks for taking a few moments and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Nick Bennett (22:19.898)

Absolutely.

Empower Your Team: Learn to Lead Across Differences

Empower Your Team: Learn to Lead Across Differences written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Stephanie Chung

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Stephanie Chung, a bestselling author and transformative leader with over 30 years of experience driving growth and building high-performing teams. Stephanie, a trailblazer in private aviation as the first African American woman to lead a private jet company, shared insights from her book, Ally Leadership: How to Lead People Who Are Not Like You.

Our conversation explored the evolving dynamics of modern workplaces, the importance of building bridges across differences, and actionable strategies leaders can use to foster inclusion and trust. Whether you’re managing diverse teams, navigating generational divides, or seeking tools to lead empathetically, Stephanie’s advice is a game-changer for today’s leaders.

Key Takeaways:

ALLY stands for Ask, Listen, Learn, You Take Action: This framework encourages leaders to foster inclusion through curiosity, empathy, and meaningful action.
Generational and cultural differences require adaptability: Leaders must embrace humility and recognize that managing diverse teams is essential in today’s workplace.
Psychological safety is key to innovation: Creating a safe space for employees to voice ideas and concerns builds trust and drives team success.
Embrace vulnerability as a leader: Acknowledging your own learning curve fosters openness and connection within the team.
Leadership is about connection, not control: Success comes from asking questions, actively listening, and taking purposeful actions to support team members.

Chapters:

[01:03] Who is Stephanie Chung?
[01:40] Introduction to ALLY Leadership
[03:12] Diversity in Leadership: Broadening the Conversation
[05:09] Cultivating Cultural Intelligence and Effective Leadership
[14:21] Overcoming Unconscious Bias Through Human Connection
[20:16] Barriers and Benefits of Leading Diverse Teams
[22:57] Creating a Psychologically Safe Workplace

More About Stephanie Chung:

Ally Leadership: How to Lead People Who Are Not Like You by Stephanie Chung
Check out Stephanie Chung Website
Connect with Stephanie Chung on LinkedIn

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Nobody does data better than Oracle. Train your AI models at twice the speed and less than half of the cost of other clouds. If you want to do more and spend less, take a free test drive at Oracle.

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.142)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Stephanie Chung. She’s a bestselling author, business leader and strategic innovator with over 30 years of experience in driving growth and transforming businesses. She’s a former chief growth officer for Wheels Up and was the first African American to lead a private jet company, JetSuite. She’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today.

Ally leadership, how to lead people who are not like you. So Stephanie, welcome to the show.

Stephanie (00:37.496)

Thanks for having me, John. I’m excited to be here.

John Jantsch (00:40.384)

I suppose, and I typically find myself doing this, getting definitions on the table of terms that are in titles. how would you, if somebody says, I’m hearing a lot about this ally leadership thing, what is that?

Stephanie (00:53.634)

Yeah, so ally is actually an acronym. So it’s a great question, right? So the reason I didn’t write and call the book Allyship is because it’s a little bit different. So ally stands for ask, listen, learn, and you take action.

And the reason why I wrote the book, John, is because at the end of the day, the whole world’s changing, right? And we as leaders have to get on board and realize that the train has left the station and sticking our head in the sand isn’t going to be helpful for any business leader. So when you think of the work climate, right, we’ve got five, soon to be six generations working, which is unheard of. So trying to lead a boomer versus a zoomer can be a challenge all within itself.

John Jantsch (01:12.14)

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie (01:32.994)

So we have the sixth generations working. We have women as the majority of the population. So that changes the dynamics as well. And then we have the ethnic demographics that are shifting, right? So the, you know, ethnic races are growing, non-ethnic race shrinking, not to mention people with different neurodiversities or different, you know, abilities or LGBTQ plus communities. So what leaders have now is an entire workforce of people who are not like each other and not like them.

John Jantsch (02:01.804)

Right, right.

Stephanie (02:02.092)

And so the real goal is how do we lead people who are not like us? And that’s really the point behind ally leadership. The only way you’re gonna be successful is to ask, listen, learn, and then you take action.

John Jantsch (02:14.594)

You know, one of the things I find really fascinating about you writing this book, so applicable, as you just said, to many leadership roles, but we’re so used to this coming from somebody who looked like me, a white male, right? Who is saying, you’re going to work with different generations now. And so I think it’s so fabulous, but also fascinating that it’s coming from an African-American female.

Stephanie (02:28.834)

Yes. Yeah. Right.

Stephanie (02:40.782)

Well, thank you for saying that. Thank you. You have no idea because that is that was that’s actually why I wrote the book, John, because I felt like the entire conversation was, you know, Mr. White guy, you’ve got to figure out how to lead women and people of color. Right. And so so, you know, yes, I addressed that in the book because obviously I can’t, you know, avoid the elephant in the room. But I felt like the conversation needed to go deeper and wider.

John Jantsch (02:52.386)

Right, right.

Stephanie (03:04.856)

The truth of the matter is all of us, it’s not just the white guy, all of us are going to be leading people who are not like them. And so how do you do it successfully? I’ll take myself as an example. You mentioned in my bio, I come from private aviation. That is a male dominated and specifically a white male dominated industry. And yet I’ve been able to reach the highest level. And so I, as an African-American female,

John Jantsch (03:21.346)

Sure.

Stephanie (03:29.89)

was I remember and you know, I opened the book with the story on how I look at the first team I’ve been given. They’re all white men and they’re looking at me like, where’d she come from, right? And I’m looking at them like, boy, right? And so at the end of the day, know, it really isn’t just, you know, white men have to know how to lead everybody. It’s everybody has to know how to lead everybody. I always say the leader of today, John has to know how to lead all God’s children, every race, every creed, every gender. That’s the job.

And so that’s what the book is really designed for, is to hopefully give tools and to help people who find themselves in that predicament as to, here’s what I did really good, here’s what I did horribly wrong, and hopefully those tools can be helpful for them as well.

John Jantsch (04:14.306)

You know, it’s unfortunately a fact of life that a lot of people grow up without a lot of cultural diversity in their life. And so, you know, how do you, how do leaders start gaining that cultural intelligence? It’s like going to another country almost, you know, right? It’s like, I don’t know how to act here, right? So how do they gain that?

Stephanie (04:21.892)

Yeah.

Stephanie (04:30.166)

Yeah. Yeah, well, I think it’s twofold. One, you have to come to grips that you’re going to make a mistake. And I really want people to grab hold of that. It is none of us for, I shouldn’t say none of us, but most of us are not dealing with life or death situations, right? So you’re going to make a mistake. So that’s the very first thing, because what I find, John, and the reason why I open with that is I find that people are so afraid to make a mistake that they do nothing.

John Jantsch (04:38.754)

Yeah. Yes.

Stephanie (04:57.396)

Right and it’s like well if you come to grips with you’re going to make a mistake then that will ease the the the pressure I guess so that when you make the mistake then you’re okay with it because people people will know it’s about your heart It’s I always say this whole thing is a head and heart issue right if someone is and I give a story in the book about a situation that I had 30 years ago with with someone that

was so not like me and I knew that I was gonna walk in and make a bunch of mistakes, right? Because it was just unfamiliar territory for me. But what I find is people who are not like you would much rather feel like they understand that your heart is in the right place. They’d rather you talk to them than not talk to them because you’re afraid of making the mistake. So how to answer your question, how do you actually go about it?

John Jantsch (05:38.114)

This

Stephanie (05:47.188)

One, get your mindset right. I’m going to make a mistake and nobody’s going to die in this process, right? The second part is, then you come at it with a heart, which is curiosity versus dictating, right? Because nobody wants to hear your opinion on how you see the world when you don’t even understand their world.

Right? And that’s usually the biggest adjustment, especially we as leaders have to make. Nobody cares about your thoughts. What we care about is you actually trying to ask questions, not with the understanding of I’m trying to ask so that I can seem like I care. No, no, you really have to humble yourself and understand that this person’s world is completely different than mine. I don’t have enough education to start dictating to them how they should be running their life.

but I can ask questions out of sheer curiosity and truly listen. And one of the things I like to have people realize is you don’t have to have all the answers. You don’t even have to have all the questions. Just start off asking the basic questions like, know, how are you? Tell me a little bit about your upbringing, your childhood, et cetera. That will then guide you with the next set of questions. Again, I think because people are so afraid and let’s face it, society also hasn’t been very graceful.

Right? People make a mistake and society cancels people and then people are afraid to make a move because they’re afraid of being socially slaughtered or canceled. So everybody has to adjust. It’s not just the leader. The whole world has to adjust. The world is different. And if we can give each other some grace and come at it through a head and heart perspective, then we’re not that far off because we actually have much more in common than we do apart. So the easiest way to do it is ask questions, listen.

John Jantsch (07:01.055)

Mm-hmm. Peace.

John Jantsch (07:07.542)

Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie (07:28.396)

learn and decide to ask more questions. And then use your privilege, because we all have it, right? It’s not just white people having privilege. Everybody’s got privilege. So use it whenever you can to help the other person that you’re in charge of leading.

John Jantsch (07:30.146)

Okay.

John Jantsch (07:42.262)

I suspect from the leader, a large amount of vulnerability, especially early on, has to be there too, right? I mean, to say, like in your case, you walked in, I’ve never worked with a team of all white guys. know, right? Almost like acknowledge that, right? Up front, and I’m going to make mistakes. I think that probably goes a long way to at least getting some grace in the beginning, doesn’t it?

Stephanie (07:54.968)

Yeah, right, Yep.

Stephanie (08:03.908)

Exactly. And even when we think if we go even one step further, because I know a lot of your audience are small business owners, right? One of the best things that we can do when trying to solve a problem, I used to this with my teams and I sold, you know, oversaw billion dollar sales teams. Very first thing I would do is sit down with them and go in front of a whiteboard and say, OK, listen, guys, here’s what we’re being asked to do. And I could really use your help on how you think we should do it.

Right, so when you talk about humbling yourself, it’s true in every aspect of leadership. If you really want to be an effective leader, you really have to know how to eat humble pie as your specialty, right? Because then people realize like, no one is expecting you to have all the answers. That’s true in business. It’s also true in leadership.

John Jantsch (08:31.81)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:40.097)

Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie (08:47.234)

And so when you’re leading people who are not like you, no one’s expecting, especially the person who’s not like you, they’re not expecting you to know everything about their lifestyle. They’re not expecting you to be familiar with the little nuances that there’s no way you would know. What they are expecting of you is that you would ask, listen, learn, and then you would take action. And the reason why I keep driving that take action home, is because you can’t call yourself an ally.

Like this isn’t a trophy, right? A participation trophy. You cannot call yourself an ally. Somebody else can call you an ally, but you can’t call yourself an ally. And the only, like, just like I can’t call myself a nice person. Like you can go, you know what, met Stephanie, she’s a nice person. But I can’t go, you know what, I’m a nice person. Like based on what, right? So same is true for ally. You know, you, you, when you take action, people will see it and then they will say, you’re an ally.

If they don’t see it, they’re not gonna say it. And just because you said it doesn’t make it true.

John Jantsch (09:46.764)

Yeah. So is there an example of kind of a challenging moment that you had that you think really not only tested your ability, but maybe kind of informed some of what shows up in the book?

Stephanie (10:00.3)

Yeah, there’s a story. It seems like it’s everybody’s favorite story. So I won’t go too far into it because I won’t spoil it for your listeners. But I tell a story about I was asked to meet with a person because at the time I was in the cosmetic industry and this friend of mine who was a behavioral specialist had asked if I would meet with one of her patients. And I was like, sure, know, no problem because the patient had a desire to get into the makeup cosmetic industry. And so I just want to pick my brain.

So once I said yes, then she shared with me that this person was transgender. Now this was 30 years ago, John. So I honestly had never heard the word, right? I didn’t know anything about transgender. I didn’t know what it meant. Like I just didn’t know. And so once she told me that and I said yes, then I told her,

teach me, educate me, like what does this actually mean mentally, physically, you know, the whole thing, right? I need to be armed so that I don’t look like a complete idiot right now in this luncheon. And so she did her best. But what was interesting, and I tell this story from several different perspectives, what was interesting is when I had that meeting at the restaurant with the transgender person.

John Jantsch (10:57.303)

Yeah

Stephanie (11:11.78)

And I tell the story from my perspective sitting there, from the restaurant attendees perspective sitting there, because again, this was 30 years ago, it wasn’t like recently, right? And just every single role that happened as you’re looking at someone, in my case, as a person who’s not like me. Now, I’m used to walking into a restaurant and maybe being the only woman or being the only black person or what have you. So I understand the dynamics that go on there. But what I saw and witnessed from

their, you know, from what the dynamics were for them walking in the room was very, very different. Something I’d never seen before. And so that’s an example. And again, I won’t go really deep into the story because I spent a lot of time on this story because I know that everybody who reads the book can find themselves in that restaurant scene. I never give, you know, direction as to what’s right, what’s wrong. That’s not for me to do. But what it does do is I promise you, when you read the book, you’re going to find yourself in one of those settings.

either as the wait staff or the person sitting in the restaurant or the person sitting across the person or and and you will find yourself there and Literally probably have a moment of like wow because I in the chapter with what would you have done? Right. So yeah, this book is for making people think John

John Jantsch (12:23.892)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Awesome.

So, unfortunately, we know there are a percentage of people that are biased and bigoted. I mean, they’re just there. However, there are a lot of really well-intentioned people that have pretty deep, unconscious biases. They don’t mean to have them. They don’t mean to have them show up the way they show up. how do people, especially this leader that you’re talking about, how do you get people to start recognizing and overcoming those?

Stephanie (12:36.824)

Yeah, that’s how it is. Yep.

Stephanie (12:45.656)

Sure. Yep.

Stephanie (12:55.692)

Yeah, that’s such a great question because what I love is that you started with the fact that we all have it. There is nobody, nobody that doesn’t have it. one of the best ways to get over it is to, once you realize, okay, I’ve got it, is just to realize I have to, I’ve been programmed to see people a certain way.

Period, right? Doesn’t mean it’s right or wrong. It’s just what I’ve been programmed. And I do spend some time in the book talking about the science behind unconscious and conscious bias, because it really does start, again, I go as a head and heart issue, right? The brain is gonna do what it finds the easiest thing to do. And so the brain will, if it sees something that’s not familiar or not like it, right, for part of it, sometimes bias is actually a good thing, believe it or not, because there’s a safety mechanism part of that as well.

Now, when it gets becoming bad is when you’re judging everybody and of clumping them in there and you’re in group or out group with absolutely no conversation to be had or because you’ve read something and you’ve never actually met a person like that. So the very first thing that we have to do is to realize that we all got it. The second thing you have to do is really to over to because our default system is to automatically put people whenever we meet them and we can just be looking at a picture of them. We don’t have to physically be having a conversation.

Our brain will put them in an in-group or out-group. First thing it does, it’s an instinct that you can’t change, right? Those are from our caveman days. And again, there is safety in that. However, what you can change is to override that default system. And how you override it is by making the unfamiliar familiar. And the only way you make the unfamiliar familiar is to literally step out of your comfort zone. Simple stuff you can do, right? Go into a neighborhood that you’re not used to going to.

You know, and usually in different neighborhoods, they have museums that are there. They have different restaurants. They have different cultural activities that you can do, galleries, et cetera. You must take the bull by the horns. You will not get culturally fluent sitting on your couch or hanging out in your same neighborhood with your same people, working the same job, having the same conversation. That’s not how it works. But if you’re serious about this, and I hope that every leader is, because again, world’s changing. Train has left the…

John Jantsch (14:55.19)

questions.

Stephanie (15:10.936)

building. Either you’re going to jump on board or you’re going to be left behind. Those are your two options. But if you’re that person who says, okay, I realize I don’t know everything and nor do I need to, I’m going to make that effort. So now what I’m going to do is, you if I have a neighbor that maybe I’ve never spent time talking to, maybe have them over for coffee and get to know them and ask them questions. Or you don’t want to do that. Go to a neighborhood that you’ve never really spent a whole lot of time through. You know where it is.

go in there, go to the museum, go to the local small business, talk, shop, ask questions. All of that is just mechanisms that will help you get more familiar so that when your brain meets somebody who’s not like you, it doesn’t automatically stick it in the out group. But now that person becomes a little bit more familiar. Or at least people who fall under that category. It’s simple things. And the reason why I keep making it really, like do step one, step two, step three.

is because I feel like part of the problem that we’ve got in society, John, is people feel like this is this big, grandiose situation. And because the bigger it gets, the more overwhelming it gets, and the more scarier it gets, and the less we do. But if I just say to you, listen, you’re going to make mistakes, accept that, right? And then make those little steps here and there, you’re going to feel like, OK, all right, I’ve got permission. And what I will tell you, especially as a person of color,

John Jantsch (16:21.771)

Yes.

Eh.

Stephanie (16:31.126)

You know, you can tell when people are coming and asking you questions because they really do want to know versus they’re asking you questions because they’re trying to trap you or get you, you know, put your defenses or trigger you or gaslight you, whatever. Everybody knows. Right. So if your head and your heart is in the right place, you would be so surprised on how welcoming people would be to actually have that conversation with you.

John Jantsch (16:53.196)

Yeah. So I guess if talking about going to that neighborhood, if you really want the MBA, like the crash course, go to the beauty salon, right? Or the barbershop. So, you know, it’s interesting. Obviously, I know where you’re going with, you know, lead people who are not like you. But really, nobody’s like me. Right. And so, and so some of the practices you’re talking about really are just human

Stephanie (17:00.78)

Yeah, right? Or the barbershop, right? Exactly.

Stephanie (17:14.754)

Yes. Yep. Exactly,

John Jantsch (17:23.266)

contact practices aren’t.

Stephanie (17:24.772)

100%. It’s all about human connection, right? And as leaders or small business owners, we’re in the people business, period. And people, really, we were designed, we were created for human connection. We are best when we’re connected. If you look on the news, there’s always that story that we all hate, but at the end of the day, the core is they didn’t have anybody that they were connected to.

John Jantsch (17:48.758)

Yeah.

Stephanie (17:48.76)

Right? And so human connection is really why we were created. So what my whole focus with the book is to really drive home the point that you just said. None of us are alike. Right? I mean, we are wonderfully made. You know, we’re unique in so many different ways. And so and that is if you if you start there, then then automatically it makes you realize also that people are not better or worse than you.

Right? because sometimes that’s the issue as well. If you feel like you’re better than other people, then you’re going to treat them a certain way. But if you realize that you’re no better than everybody else, right? We’re all wonderfully made. Then that allows you to come into the conversation with a different heart stance, which then allows the person who you’re speaking to to receive you a certain way as well.

John Jantsch (18:35.82)

So what are some of the barriers that, you know, we always have to drag out, like, here’s the hard part. What are some of the barriers that you’ve seen have really prevented leaders from truly embracing this approach?

Stephanie (18:42.606)

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie (18:48.426)

Usually it’s when they make a mistake, they may have said something wrong or come off the wrong way, and then all of a sudden they’re chastised. And then that kind of scathing review makes them never want to do it again. So that’s usually what I’ve seen. The flip side though, because we do talk a lot, especially in our country, about inclusivity and things of that nature.

John Jantsch (18:52.791)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (19:00.001)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (19:10.518)

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie (19:11.64)

What we don’t really talk about the fact that leading diverse teams actually can be very challenging. And it’s not because the team is diverse, right? A diverse team, there’s enough statistics out there, diverse teams simply perform better. So from a sheer business perspective, it just makes good business sense to create a team of all-stars versus, you know, just like in sports, right? Nobody’s gonna have a basketball team with all forwards.

Right? Like you’re never going to win. So you have to have a team where everybody plays a different position, has a different gift, talent, et cetera. And that then means that the team has to, by default, be diverse. Because people think of diversity as far as just race, diversity in communication, diversity of how they think, diversity of perspective. mean, diversity is a big word that covers a lot of things. So that’s the first thing. But that’s usually what happens is people feel like they’ve made a mistake. And so that’s what stops them in their tracks.

John Jantsch (19:34.23)

Right, right.

Stephanie (20:03.064)

But the flip side is what I would say is yes, leading a diverse team can be hard, not because of the team, but because you’ve got to make sure that you’re letting everybody speak their piece and how they may speak their piece because how they see the world may be very, very different.

So as a leader, you gotta have like real leadership skills, right? To make sure that you can manage those conversations and the differences that will come from it and the different perspectives because that’s the secret sauce and how you get a different, more powerful result, right? But you as a leader have to check yourself. If you’re kind of an okay leader, this is gonna be tough, right? But if you’re a real leader that is very strong in communication and bringing out the best in people and you’re secure enough.

John Jantsch (20:32.322)

you

Stephanie (20:46.286)

to be able to allow people to challenge each other or even challenge your thought process. Now you’ve got a team that is unstoppable because if you get a bunch of people presented and focused on a common cause, literally will live, like they will not be stopped. But that’s the job of the leader. What are we doing? Why are we doing it? And what is it the role that you play as to how this business is successful?

John Jantsch (21:09.426)

It’s funny you talk about that diversity. I’ve always contended the best marriages are very diverse. Individuals, right? And the best partnerships in business. People bring a whole different side of it. How does a leader create a safe place for employees, psychologically safe place for employees, given what you’ve been talking about?

Stephanie (21:14.048)

Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes.

I love that. I love that.

Stephanie (21:30.648)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The easiest way to do it literally is that when people voice their opinion, you almost want to create healthy confrontation, right? And so how you do that is, you I used to have one of the best CEOs I ever worked for. He mastered this. He had come over, taken over the organization.

And what he realized very quickly is that the team got along to get along, right? So there was, know, and if anybody didn’t agree, then instead of bringing it up in the middle of that executive meeting, they would then not say anything. And then the meeting’s over and we know the type, right? And then they go to the water cooler and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, So it drove him crazy. And that was just a dysfunction of how the team was used to operate.

John Jantsch (22:09.814)

Yep, yep, yep.

Stephanie (22:14.532)

because the environment wasn’t as such where you could actually voice the fact that you maybe didn’t agree with, you know, your colleague or what have you. So one of the very first things that he did, and it’s funny, I used to watch him do that, and then every company I’ve ever overseen, I’ve done the same thing, where he would try to get us to break that dysfunctional habit, right? And the way that he would do it is I would say he’d drop a grenade in the middle of the, get us all worked up, and then he’d leave.

Now we’re all, you know, crazy and we’ve got to like work it out because we’ve got to come to some kind of consensus. and that’s one way that leaders can do it at the beginning. It feels a little uncomfortable, both for the team and for the leader, because you’re almost stirring up stuff. Right. But I’d much rather have a team that is like, you know, disagreeing in a respectful way, but at the end of the day can all get on board. And when we walk off the doors, we’re all in unison. That’s the goal.

right? But you really as leaders running companies or teams or divisions, the whole point is that you must hear all the different perspectives. That’s how you’re going to be get a competitive advantage out there. And so if you don’t allow people to do that, then you know, the emperor has no clothes, right? We’re all seeing they’re going, yes, it’s all it’s a wonderful product. This new thing you’ve created. In the meantime, people are thinking this is this.

Sucks, right? This product never going to get off the ground and nobody feels like they’re safe enough to be able to say it. So how you create safe psychological safety within a workplace is to literally get people comfortable with the uncomfortable conversations. And a lot of times as leaders, we actually have to start that because they won’t do it naturally. So we kind of have to start it by saying, well, you know what, John, know that Stephanie said this, but you know, looks like the look on your face says that you disagree. Tell me more.

right? And then force you to say, well, the reason, you know, and you’re going to, you’re going to tip toe around it at the beginning. Well, it’s not that I don’t disagree. It’s just, think there’s another way to do it. Great. Well, tell me more. Right. And so you’re going to keep forcing people to get to that point where they, can, you can watch them. They’re feeling uncomfortable saying it. They’re like, well, I just don’t think her idea is good. Great. Well, tell me why. What’s your idea? What can, how can we do this better? Right. So just forcing those conversations. Once people realize that when they do it and they say it,

John Jantsch (24:25.995)

Yes.

Stephanie (24:37.314)

and nothing bad happens to them, the next meeting they’re more likely to do it. And then the next meeting they’re more likely to do it. And that’s how we change the culture.

John Jantsch (24:46.114)

And it’s funny. I feel like when people are in a room together, we’re a little more guarded about our body language. People are so easy to detect on Zoom, right? Because we think, nobody’s actually here with me, you know, so I can roll my eyes and nobody will know. It’s funny. Well, Stephanie, it was so great having you stop by the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you and find out more about how to lead people who are not like you?

Stephanie (24:56.514)

Yes, exactly. Right. So true.

Thank you.

Stephanie (25:14.588)

Absolutely. They are welcome to come onto my website, StephanieChung.com, or I’m on all the socials, LinkedIn, TikTok, Instagram, at the Stephanie Chung. But StephanieChung.com is probably the quickest way to get to me and that. And yeah, for those of you that are leading out there, I hope this book will serve as a tool to help you have the best team so you can get the best results.

John Jantsch (25:36.13)

Well, again, thanks for stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Stephanie (25:40.58)

I love it. Thanks so much for having me, John. Bye bye now.

John Jantsch (25:43.532)

Ha.

Why Most Goals Fail (And How to Beat the Odds)

Why Most Goals Fail (And How to Beat the Odds) written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Jon Acuff

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Jon Acuff, a New York Times bestselling author of nine books, including All It Takes Is A Goal. Known for his humor and actionable insights, Jon has addressed audiences worldwide, from Microsoft to FedEx, helping people unlock their potential and achieve lasting success.

Our conversation dives deep into the pitfalls of goal setting, the common reasons people abandon their goals, and the proven strategies to overcome these challenges. Whether you’re struggling to take the first step or sustain momentum, Jon’s practical tips will inspire you to set achievable goals and make steady progress.

Key Takeaways:

Break your goals into manageable steps using the “goal ladder” approach, which includes easy, middle, and guaranteed goals.
Use regret as a tool for learning and growth. Bad regret traps you in the past, while good regret motivates action and change.
Don’t get stuck waiting for a perfect, 20-year vision. Instead, focus on small actions that build momentum today.
Goals without dedicated time are just dreams. Assign specific time blocks to your goals for realistic progress.
Whether visual, auditory, or community-driven, identify and leverage the motivational tools that work best for you.
Balance big-picture aspirations with realistic, actionable steps to avoid feeling overwhelmed.
Learn from setbacks and adapt. Each failure provides valuable insights for future success

Chapters:

[01:02] Who is Jon Acuff?
[03:36] Unique Approach to Goal Setting
[05:11] Understanding and Utilizing Regret for Positive Change
[07:07] Building Achievable Goals and Addressing Unequal Opportunities
[10:39] Balancing Aspirational and Realistic Goals
[14:58] Prioritizing Goals and Embracing Failure for Success
[18:56] Overcoming Fear of Success and Learning from Failure

More About Jon Acuff:

All It Takes Is a Goal: The 3-Step Plan to Ditch Regret and Tap Into Your Massive Potential by Jon Acuff
Check out Jon Acuff’s Website
Connect with Jon Acuff on Instagram

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Nobody does data better than Oracle. Train your AI models at twice the speed and less than half of the cost of other clouds. If you want to do more and spend less, take a free test drive at Oracle.

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.277)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Jon Acuff. He’s a New York Times bestselling author of nine books, including his most recent, All It Takes Is A Goal, the three-step plan to ditch regret and tap into your massive potential. Translated into over 20 languages, Acuff’s work is both critically acclaimed and beloved by readers. He’s a top leadership speaker named by Inc.

And he has addressed audiences worldwide, including FedEx, Microsoft, and Chick-fil-A, known for blending humor. With insight, he once opened for Dolly Parton at the Ryman Auditorium. So John, welcome to the show.

Jon Acuff (00:41.378)

Thanks for having me, John. Looking forward to it.

John Jantsch (00:43.089)

Should we blow little time hearing that story? It’s in your bio. Yeah.

Jon Acuff (00:46.392)

The Dolly Parton story? Yeah. That happened like most of those things happen via my dentist, obviously. I go to what I say, the dentist to the stars and Jon Acuff. So famous people go there and also me. And he said one night, he was like, Hey, I’ve got a charity event at the Ryman. Would you be willing to open for Dolly Parton? And I said, I guess, guess I can do that. So I did 20 minutes of comedy, just straight comedy. The audience was dentists. had some.

John Jantsch (00:51.867)

ha ha ha!

John Jantsch (00:57.139)

Okay. All right. All right.

Jon Acuff (01:16.076)

killer mouth jokes that would not be funny if I told them to do right now. And I met Dolly, she did a 75 minute show that started at like 9 PM. She’s unbelievable. She’s everything you hope. You know, they always say never meet your heroes, but definitely meet Dolly Parton. I would have that photo of us on my driver’s license if the DMV weren’t such jerks.

John Jantsch (01:20.679)

Ha ha!

Wow.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:29.821)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:35.027)

Yeah, I a, I can’t remember what it was. of it was a series of podcasts, but it was a serial where somehow the person met and ended up like doing all these interviews with Dolly Parton. He turned it into almost a book length podcast and it was so good. It was so good. Yeah.

Jon Acuff (01:49.804)

yeah, I heard it was great. Yeah, yeah. I don’t know any. It’s like, there’s only three people in America. Nobody hates. It’s like Dolly Denzel and Tom Hanks. think like it’s hard to find somebody who’s like that Tom Hanks. I hate his stupid face. I think they’re universally loved.

John Jantsch (01:58.003)

Yeah. Well, I, my like opening for joke was, I actually used to talk about, the fact that Bill Cosby opened for me. Now, technically he was the closing speaker at an event and I happened to be the next morning’s opening speaker, but

Jon Acuff (02:20.405)

yeah, that counts. I’ve counted month distance. Totally same arena, that counts.

John Jantsch (02:24.923)

However, that joke hasn’t held up as well. I don’t use it as much anymore. Yeah, I have. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does. So let’s just start with the obvious. Put you on like the defense right off the bat. Does the world need another book on gold setting? I mean, there are a few of them out there. So what, what in your mind said, yeah, I’ve got like something that hasn’t been written before.

Jon Acuff (02:26.892)

Nah, dude, you’re gonna wanna retire that one. You’re gonna wanna, that one has, yeah, that one has a different feel in this current year.

Jon Acuff (02:43.64)

Sure.

Jon Acuff (02:48.824)

Yeah.

Jon Acuff (02:55.34)

That’s a great question. well, habits had already been done. mean, James Clear wrote Atomic Habits. If you ever write a book about habits, God bless you that that one’s been done. No, for me, what, what I felt like was missing in a lot of goal setting books was how easy the initial goals should be. I think our culture does a really big job of going go big or go home. And what happens is people usually go home. And so I was teaching goal setting techniques for

John Jantsch (02:58.991)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (03:14.481)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (03:18.536)

Yeah, yeah.

Jon Acuff (03:24.642)

five or six years to real folks accomplishing real things and felt like that was a big part of what was missing is, okay, how do you, you know, how do you do that? And then the second thing I thought was missing was that a lot of goal setting books, their first step is come up with a 20 year vision for your life. Like, and we’ve misinterpreted Stephen Covey’s begin with the end in mind into if you don’t know the end, you can’t begin. And so I kept seeing people.

John Jantsch (03:41.586)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:47.965)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jon Acuff (03:49.812)

run into what I call as a vision wall. And so I wanted to write a goal setting book that started from the past, meaning the first thing it did was say, what are the things that have lit you up over the last five years, the last 10 years? What are the clues? Because most people go, don’t look backward. You’re not going that direction. And we leave all this real learning about who we really are and what really fires us up. So I wanted to redeem your past to provide clues to your present and build your future.

John Jantsch (04:15.997)

So the word regret in the title is a tough word for some people. mean, there’s certainly people look at it as a negative, but there’s a school of thought. think Dan Pink actually had a book recently that kind of talks about, no, you learn from that. There’s like good regret or there’s no regret. I don’t know which there is. So how do you help people distinguish between the, you you can learn from regret as opposed to just saying every mistake I made was regret.

Jon Acuff (04:20.312)

Yeah.

Jon Acuff (04:26.264)

Yeah, whole book on it.

Jon Acuff (04:42.616)

Yeah, I I guess for me, it always comes down to, well, so what did you do with it? What was the action that came out of that? And so I think a really simple test is bad regret is something that doesn’t lead to change. It just leads to more bad regret. Like you get stuck in that loop. Good regret, think by nature leads to change. You go, I regretted the way I said that. I’m not going to say that kind of thing again. Here’s what I’m going to practice to make sure I don’t say that kind of thing again. Here’s the, you know, I made this mistake.

And so, yeah, for me, that’s what I meant. I think a lot of times with regret, we go back to our past and hope there’s a single thing we can find that will change the rest of our lives. And we have this kind of misinterpreted version of counseling sometimes, like maybe there’s something that happened to you at six. And once you unlock that, you’ll be a completely different human going forward. And I think there is benefit to going, yeah, I had this challenge and I’ve, and I needed to process it, but

Sometimes where I see people get stuck with regret is it’s like if you visited the same beach town every summer for 20 summers in a row, you’d know that beach town so well. And they visit the same story 20 years in a row and they keep giving it more power, more power, more power, more power versus going, yeah, that was a thing that happened. I can’t change that. can change tomorrow. So I’m going to give more of my time, more of my energy to that. What does that look like? And so, yeah, I would say.

For me, it’s how fast can I turn it into action for my future versus rumination about the past.

John Jantsch (06:12.499)

Can you, and we can talk about the individual ones, can you just kind of quickly, what’s the three-step plan?

Jon Acuff (06:17.9)

Yeah. So the three steps are essentially you build what I would call as a goal ladder. Most people have a hard time with goals because they have a 12 foot tall ladder that only has two rungs. The top rung says final step and the bottom rung says first day. And the final step could be make a million dollars, lose 50 pounds. First day says, you know, get your LLC or buy sneakers. And there’s a huge gap between there you go, I can’t get to the top that way. And so the three steps are you build easy goals, you build middle goals and you build guaranteed goals.

essentially adding rungs to your entire ladder so that you have a rung every six inches so that it’s a really simple ladder to climb. So those are the three steps.

John Jantsch (06:55.729)

One thing I think we ought to address, and I don’t think a lot of gold setting books do, is that the fact of life is that there are people, I count myself as one, I had access to a lot of resources. I had privilege growing up and there are a lot of people that don’t, I mean, that want to take themselves out of the situation they have and don’t have some of the things that other people have. How do you talk about that person that’s like,

And again, I know people can use that as an excuse because we’ve all seen people that have risen from abject poverty, you know, to like, incredible, know, achieving incredible goals. But how do you address that just when you’re talking to the normal person out there that there are definitely differences in opportunities that people have.

Jon Acuff (07:42.936)

Yeah, I try to talk it to the individual person. I can’t talk to global people. I can talk to individual readers. So where I see people get stuck there is if I go, man, I think you’d feel great if you walked around your neighborhood today. And then they push back and go, well, not everybody has a safe neighborhood. Okay, well, let’s pull the thread on that. So are you saying until everybody has a safe neighborhood, you can’t walk in your neighborhood? How will you know? Will the government email you and say, hey, we did it.

John Jantsch (07:48.563)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:06.323)

Yeah.

Jon Acuff (08:10.316)

We did it. Everybody has the same exact safe neighborhood. Now you can go take a walk. I had a friend, Chip Dodd, he’s a PhD say, we suffer from global co-dependence. When you say not everybody had the same opportunity, you’re saying I’m dependent on them having the same opportunity before I changed my life. So in a situation like that, I’d say to somebody, hey, I think this could be beneficial. And if they said, well, I don’t have those same opportunities, I would say, well, which ones do you have? Let’s talk about you as an individual. If they said,

Hey, John, there’s a lot of people that can’t do that. I’d go, well, what are their names? And more than likely they go, well, I don’t really know any. just know that like the world and I’ll go, okay, well, like, is it a friend? Let’s talk about your, your friend doesn’t have that opportunity. Let’s help them fix their specific problem. I just think that, yeah, life is certainly like, life is certainly not equal. but I think it comes down to going, what can you do with what you have versus like, I don’t like.

Take for me, for instance, I was never going to be in the NBA. I’m at my height at five seven. There’s five people in the history of the NBA that have played at my height. Like, so I can’t go like, man, it’s, it’s crazy that Steph Curry gets to play in the NBA and I don’t like, didn’t get the same opportunities. Like yeah, height wasn’t one of my opportunities. And in some ways it encouraged me to develop a sense of humor because I wasn’t going to be the tall, confident kid in the seventh grader because I was not tall and confident. So I thought.

And I’ve had to develop a little bit of survival skills in my middle school and maybe personality be one of them. So I always try to get it back to the individual because I think there are people, know, everybody gets a different set of opportunities and it depends on what you do with them.

John Jantsch (09:52.755)

So you started talking about the, one of the challenges people have is that they set these impossible goals for, or they think, you know, that’s not big enough. How do you kind of keep people keep a perspective on that tension? You know, that like what’s aspirational, what would put, mean, because a goal should push you a little bit probably, right? But also some people, you know, set something so big that they can’t take the first step.

Jon Acuff (10:13.282)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jon Acuff (10:21.346)

Yeah. So you do need both. like, you need the aspiration to get you started. You need the small goal to keep you going. So nobody gets excited. know, John, I know, and you know, if somebody wants to write a 50,000 word book, the first thing they have to do is write the first 100 words and the next 200 words. But that’s so boring. If you say to somebody, you’re going to get to write a hundred whole words, that doesn’t get anybody to the desk. You want to paint for them this big picture of like,

The book is on a shelf, you’re holding it in your hand. It’s been translated into Italian. You’re at a book signing. You need the aspiration to be inspired, but then you have to break it down at the daily steps. So it’s really a dance of both in that sense. And so for me, one of the fastest ways to do that is to deal in terms of time. Like I get to time so fast with people. Most people’s goal is divorce from their calendar and you never accomplish a goal if that’s how you’re living. And so one of the things I do, which is not

necessarily fun right out of the gate is if somebody’s serious about a goal, go, all right, let’s do a quick time gap analysis. Like let’s add up the hours that your new goal is going to take. And most people that read my types of books and listen to your podcast have more goals than they need. The average person I did a study had 22.8 goals. Your listeners feel overwhelmed because they should feel overwhelmed. They’re juggling 22 balls at a time. So I’ll go, let’s put an hour with it. And they’ll usually go, okay, it’s 22 hours of goals. And I go, okay, how many hours of free time do you have in your week?

John Jantsch (11:41.651)

Yes.

Jon Acuff (11:49.314)

this week and then go free time. What? I’m very busy. I have zero. Okay. You have a new goal system that costs 22 hours. You have a calendar that accepts zero hours. You’re just going to get into a fight constantly. So I’ll always try to get them to like make friends with reality. The problem is with goals is you dream and then you plan and dreaming is based on optimism and planning is based on realism. And a lot of people have a hard time making that transition. And so I try to help them ease that transition.

from I’ve got a big, crazy, amazing goal. I dreamed with unfettered limitations and now I want to actually bring it into the real world. How do I do that in a way that is still encouraging? But it also does stretch me. And so that’s always, it’s definitely a dance and it’s why most goals fail. 92 % of all new year’s resolutions according to the University of Scranton fail. Strava did a study of 800 million athletic activities. Biggest fitness tracking up in the world.

John Jantsch (12:26.611)

Okay.

Jon Acuff (12:46.604)

The biggest drop off day they saw was the second Friday in January. So let’s not, let’s not sugar coat that like, if you have a goal, it magically happens. It doesn’t, but man, is it worth it? Like, man, is it worth it?

John Jantsch (12:49.203)

you

John Jantsch (12:53.321)

Yeah,

John Jantsch (12:58.851)

You know, one of the things that I suspect most people, most listeners have, can think back in their life and have seen is that like, I know that if I make something a priority, it’s going to happen. If I wish that something happens, it’s probably not, I’ll fill up my calendar with other stuff. But when, you know, the one everybody always relates to is, know, on April 14th, if I haven’t filed my taxes, all of sudden I got time to figure that out. Right?

Jon Acuff (13:26.68)

Yeah, yeah, I’m motivated, I’m motivated, yeah.

John Jantsch (13:28.115)

Right. And, and I think that that’s true. Probably that, that idea of getting the right, like making something a real priority is the only way you’re going to make it happen.

Jon Acuff (13:39.106)

Yeah, I mean, and you have to figure out what that means to you. Some people are people motivated. So some people are really helped when they have another person who’s holding their feet to the fire. Yeah. And you go, okay, great. Some people are, you know, visually motivated. They need to do that exercise where they cut out the pictures from the magazine and they can envision it. Some of them are, you know, audio motivated where they, they need the Eminem song kicking them off at the gym and they’re going to lose themselves.

So it’s really about figuring out what are the tools you need to get it done? Like what is your kind of set of tools? And for me, I throw thousands of tools at my goals. Like I really, you know, I’ve, now written 10 books. Like this year I will have run 650 miles and walked 450 miles. I read a hundred books a year and there’s people that’ll go, man, that’s a lot.

That feels like a lot. always think, yeah, I want a lot out of life. It is a lot. Like I want a whole, I want to make a lot of money and help a lot of people and, and run a lot of miles, but I just use a lot of tools that make that easy and fun. And I’m always figuring that out and I’m always dialing that in. And you’ve seen the same thing. Like if you spend time with successful people, they’re never accidental. Like nothing in life gets awesome accidentally. I’ve never met somebody who accidentally got in shape.

John Jantsch (14:51.378)

Yeah.

Jon Acuff (14:56.898)

who said, yeah, I was just binge watching Netflix. Next thing you knew, I was doing burpees in the living room. I don’t even remember getting off the couch. I’ve never met somebody who had an awesome marriage accidentally or had an awesome business accidentally. They’re always intentional and they’re very intentional about how they stay motivated to actually commit to the goal.

John Jantsch (15:16.467)

Yeah. And I think another thing is, you know, when you see that person, that you think, wow, look at the level of success, know, you should go back and listen to my first podcast, go back and listen to my first speech, go back and read my first article I wrote.

Jon Acuff (15:28.63)

yeah, dude. Yeah. Brutal. Brutal. My wife still like, so I’ve been public speaking for probably 15, 16 years now. My wife still doesn’t really enjoy to go to my events because she still has PTSD from my first couple of events. She would come and sit there and just watch me. Like it was a suffer fest for me and the audience. And that’s part of it. And so…

That’s the other thing is that we often don’t get to see that process. And I think that’s what people relate to with you is that you share, you share the process. Like entrepreneurs that share the process, are honest and vulnerable and go, yeah, this thing blew it. Like I wrote a book once and the, was, this was a literary magazine that reviewed it. And their last sentence was, you can essentially, you can tell John’s passionate, but ultimately this reads like a pamphlet that got stretched into a book.

That’s every writer’s nightmare that like somebody goes, this could have been a pamphlet. And, but at the same time, I’m like, what’s the trade-off that I wouldn’t have done that? Like, and I didn’t get a book out and then think about, think about, okay, if your first episode stinks, what’s the trade-off? You, you want the episodes to get worse? Of course not. You want to look back and go, wow, I’ve gotten better. Like that’s what you want. And so if you remember that you’re willing to do the work of being like, yeah, dude, that one was rough.

Or like, wow, the crowd didn’t connect on that. like, I wrote that book and it just did not, I’ve written books that didn’t sell and it’s a public failure. And that’s not, that’s not fun, but that’s part of writing a book that does sell.

John Jantsch (17:04.487)

Yes, absolutely. Well, I’ve read research on, and this isn’t everybody, but there’s certainly people out there that are actually afraid of success. It’s like, what’s going to happen to me? What’s going to happen to my family if I succeed? mean, how do you get people kind of past that barrier if it exists?

Jon Acuff (17:14.795)

yeah.

Jon Acuff (17:23.17)

What depends on what, you know, the cause of their, so it seems like when it comes to a fear of success, there’s like, there’s a couple versions of it. There’s, I can’t be more successful than what I grew up with is an acceptable amount of success. So I can’t make more money than my dad. I can’t make more money than the town I grew up in. there’s also, if I get successful, life will get harder and more complicated. So that is what I call Mo Money Mo Problem Syndrome. The idea that if I make more money, life’s going to get harder and more stressful.

John Jantsch (17:36.595)

Yeah, right, right, right, Yep.

Jon Acuff (17:52.664)

But I’ll tell you, I’ve had no money before and it didn’t make life easier. It didn’t make the problems simpler. or it’s, know, okay, if I get successful, people expect me to be successful every time. Some people like to surprise people. They’re afraid to have expectations. So they’d rather you have no expectations and they show up and then they exceed them. So it depends on which variety of that you have.

John Jantsch (17:57.075)

You’re right. Yep. Right.

Jon Acuff (18:17.868)

But for me, it’s, go, you’re going to have to raise your level of what’s an acceptable amount of success. And one of the ways you do that is in community. So you and I, where we connected was a community of very successful authors. And I can’t speak for your level of success. I was not the most successful person that room by a long shot. And, but being around them, I go, wow. This person, that’s how they did it. They seem like they really love their family. They seem like their life is really fun and they have a level of success.

that I thought came with a lot of complications or maybe like I have this broken soundtrack that says, if you get that successful, you never see your kids and you end up, you don’t really even know your wife. And this guy seems to love his wife and he seems to love his kids. And wow, that breaks my framework. And so now just being around those people challenges me to go, I’m going to raise my own personal definition of what’s an okay amount of success, you know, and see what that looks like. But the other thing for me with that is I’m really deliberate about

John Jantsch (19:01.512)

Yeah.

Jon Acuff (19:14.782)

studying and working with people who have sustainable long-term success. So I’m no longer impressed by the person that has a YouTube channel that’s hot for a year or one book that did well. I’m curious about the guy who’s 40 years into his career, the woman who’s 30 years into her career, who has a family that loves her, has a spouse that loves them, has a business that’s healthy, they’re in moderate health shape. And I go, how did they do that?

John Jantsch (19:24.955)

Yes.

Jon Acuff (19:40.492)

Like how have they not blown it up? How have they not? Cause there’s plenty of examples of leaders who have. And so I treat it pretty serious about how do you, how do you enjoy success and how do you make success not change you?

John Jantsch (19:52.979)

All right. Final question. I’m guessing I could be wrong. There’d be hard to write a book like this, or at least shape the ideas of a book with this like this that you hadn’t experienced a significant goal that you failed to achieve.

Jon Acuff (20:09.428)

yeah, yeah, so I mean…

John Jantsch (20:10.349)

So do share maybe how some of that shaped this book.

Jon Acuff (20:15.02)

Yeah. mean, you could say, I mean, think about this. Like I spent three years working with Dave Ramsey and that was a really amazing experience. And then I ended up starting my own company, which was not successful for a period of time. So there were a lot of people, friends who would say, wow, what you blew it. You were on the radio with 10 million radio listeners. And then the next day you had zero radio listeners. My wife said to me, she said, Hey,

I think it’s going to be hard for you to handle that your next book won’t sell like your last book because you don’t have 10 million radio listeners to talk to about it. And that was a reality. for me, you know, that was a big, that was a big, a big moment to go, wow, I have to start over. Like I started at the bottom of a lot of ladders, in that moment where, you know, so that was definitely one that I would say, okay.

John Jantsch (20:49.363)

Thanks.

Jon Acuff (21:09.162)

I had to start over in that moment, starting my own business in that moment. It’s going to speak to 80 people in a Ramada in January in Effingham, Illinois, when I had been on stage to 10,000 people three months before. I don’t know anybody in the world that would go, this is working. I’m doing it. This is the trajectory. That’s definitely one of them. Then there’s been too many books. There’s books I’ve written that just…

didn’t find the sales market. Like one of my books, Do Over, which is about career transition, it just had the wrong title. And I came up with the title. That’s no, like I don’t, I’m not pointing a single finger that I came up with that title. Seth Godin said it was the greatest career book ever written. That was his endorsement. It’s the best endorsement I’ve ever received and it didn’t sell well. And the reason why, in my opinion, is the phrase do over was so negative to so many people. I saw it as positive.

John Jantsch (21:46.939)

Mm-hmm.

Jon Acuff (22:07.328)

I saw it as a phoenix rising from the ashes, but nobody wanted to give anyone that book. Cause you would never say to a husband, Hey, it’s a book about failures. It’s called do-overs made me think of you. Here you go. But like, no one would give that book and dude, we changed the subtitle from the hardcover to the paperback. Like we did everything and it just didn’t work. And, and I worked as hard as I could on that. I wrote the best book I could. got, you know,

John Jantsch (22:07.419)

Mm-hmm. Right, right, right, right.

John Jantsch (22:15.922)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (22:24.509)

Huh. Wow.

Jon Acuff (22:34.616)

great feedback from other writers like Seth Godin, but the titling, the way I positioned it, and again, it was me. Like I would love to blame somebody else. It was a guy named Jon Acuff that did that. And so yeah, that was definitely a humbling one.

John Jantsch (22:43.869)

Yeah.

Awesome. Well, John, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you, find out more about your work and your books?

Jon Acuff (22:58.894)

Sure. If you like podcasts, I have a podcast called All It Takes is a Goal, where I interview folks about the goals they’re working on. And then I read all my audio books. So if you’re a listener to audio, I add a ton of bonus content. If you ever write your own book and get to record the audio, add a bunch of bonus content because it’s really fun. So you can check out my two most recent All It Takes is a Goal and Soundtracks, which is about mindset. And then I’m just Jon Acuff everywhere online.

John Jantsch (23:25.189)

Awesome. Well, again, appreciate you taking a moment to stop by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road, John.

Jon Acuff (23:31.384)

Yeah, thanks. Great seeing you again, John.

5 Marketing Trends That Will Disrupt 2025 (And How to Stay Ahead)

5 Marketing Trends That Will Disrupt 2025 (And How to Stay Ahead) written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I discuss the marketing landscape heading into 2025.

With years of experience helping businesses grow through strategic marketing approaches, I reviewed five transformative trends poised to disrupt how marketers, agencies, and organizations connect with audiences in 2025. These trends highlight the increasing role of AI, hyper-personalization, decentralized communities, and authenticity in crafting impactful strategies.

I shared actionable insights on leveraging generative AI, exploring platforms like Reddit and Bluesky, and embracing customer-centric values to build trust and loyalty. Whether you’re a small business owner or part of a marketing agency, these predictions offer a roadmap for navigating the rapidly evolving digital ecosystem in 2025.

Key Takeaways:

Hyper-Personalization Is the New Standard
Generative AI is making one-to-one marketing at scale more accessible. Tools like CRM platforms combined with customer data platforms allow businesses to tailor campaigns down to the individual level. From personalized newsletters to dynamic websites, hyper-personalization is no longer optional—it’s what customers expect.
Decentralized Communities Are Reshaping Consumer Behavior
Platforms like Reddit, Discord, and Bluesky are becoming hubs for authentic, ad-free conversations. Consumers are gravitating away from traditional social networks, forcing marketers to establish meaningful presences in these smaller, values-driven communities.
Generative AI Revolutionizes Creative Production
AI tools like DALL·E, Pictory, and Canva’s Firefly are streamlining content creation, making high-quality graphics and videos faster and more cost-effective to produce. While these tools aren’t perfect yet, their potential to democratize creative production will reshape how brands engage visually with their audiences.
AI-Driven Marketing Orchestration Is Automating the Complex
AI is emerging as the central hub for campaign management and automation. From smarter workflows to enhanced analytics, platforms like HubSpot and Google Analytics are transforming how businesses orchestrate their marketing efforts, enabling seamless touchpoints and increased efficiency.
Brand Marketing Is Key to Trust and Loyalty
In an era of increasing transparency and shifting consumer values, brand authenticity is paramount. Differentiation through trust-building and value alignment is becoming the ultimate competitive edge as traditional lead-generation methods wane.

Chapters

[00:48] Hyper-Personalization Powered by Generative AI
[02:45] Decentralized Communities and the Shift Away from Traditional Social Media
[04:43] Generative AI-Led Creative Production
[07:50] AI-Driven Marketing Orchestration
[09:42] Brand Marketing as the New Standard
[11:14] AI Transparency and Consumer Trust
[13:00] Closing Thoughts & Actionable Advice for 2025

More About John Jantsch

Author of Duct Tape Marketing and The Ultimate Marketing Engine
Check out John Jantsch’s agency and consultancy Duct Tape Marketing
Connect with John Jantsch on LinkedIn
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Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.898)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and guess what? It’s just me, no guests today. I’m doing a solo show. know, 2024 is getting ready to wrap up, depending upon when you’re listening to this. So I thought I would do my predictions for marketing disruption in 2025. And no shock, I’m going to actually give you five of them, but no shock, a lot of them have to do with AI.

That’s just where we are at this point in time. So I’m going to talk a little bit about what I think marketers, marketing consultants, marketing agencies, you as a marketer for your organization need to be aware of. Number one, I’m calling this hyper personalization powered by generative AI. There are a heck of a lot of tools out there now that are helping us get better at segmenting rather than just like market segments, but actually all the way down to

individual segments. you know, AI is going to give us the ability to create one-to-one campaigns really at scale. And I think that it’s going to be a huge differentiator because customers, I think you’re just going to demand, you know, once the market starts doing things and people start experiencing them, we start demanding, hey, I want that experience. And I think generic messaging is really going to make you fall

So you’re going to need to adopt some AI tools that offer or help you offer this idea of hyper personalization. know, frankly, a lot of the CRM tools, HubSpot, ActiveCampaign, you know, allow you to personalize email campaigns. And you combine that with a segmenting tool, a customer data platform will really then allow you to go deeper and deeper, do that kind of almost one-on-one personalization.

start small. You don’t have to go crazy. But I think you need to start really businesses at all levels need to start thinking that way. You know, beyond the CRM or the marketing platforms to really getting into start saying, okay, our newsletter, could we, is there, do we have the ability to start sending instead of one newsletter that everybody gets a hundred newsletters that really understand who they’re sending to.

John Jantsch (02:28.104)

and replace content. That’s what we’re going to start seeing. You know, eventually we’ll start seeing websites. You you revisit our website and dependent upon what I know about you or dependent upon, you know, the pages you look at, you might actually start seeing personalized content. That’s the world that I think is coming. It’s actually it’s happening. We just don’t even realize it if people are doing it well. All right. Number two, decentralized communities on places like

Reddit and of course everybody’s talking about Blue Sky right now as a new one. I think that you are going to see consumers moving to some of these platforms that, you know, they’re a little ad-like experiences. I think people are getting really distrust with the traditional social networks that have become politicized and have been just…

cramming ads down our throats and selling data and whatnot. So I think you’re just going to see people, consumers moving to some of these new platforms. So consequently, you’re going to see brands moving to them. And I think this idea of nurturing smaller communities is probably going to be something that, that starts happening again, starting small, set up, you know, at least a presence on, you know, places like Reddit, blue sky. I don’t know if you’ve done a search on Google lately, but

you know, we’re starting to see all kinds of Reddit content come into the search results. so participating in at least understanding what’s going on in those places, I think is going to matter. And I’m not even talking about some of, you know, those are public places, but, you know, some of the private, like if you don’t belong to a Discord community, you know, it’s not being surfaced in search and you wouldn’t know what’s going on there. So I think you’re going to see a lot more of that.

I’m using tools like BuzzSumo and BrandWatch, you know, to really monitor discussions that are happening in some of these places, I think is, know, whether it’s your brand or it’s related to the products and services that you sell. think understanding how and where people are having these conversations and the fact that they are going to be in a lot of places that maybe you’re not today. And I’m not necessarily suggesting this idea that

John Jantsch (04:47.866)

you need to sign up for every new thing that comes along. I think it’s more understanding the trend that consumers are moving to some of those and moving away from really listening to a lot of the traditional platforms. All right, another one with AI directly in the title number three, generative AI led creative production. Everybody talks about content.

And certainly we’re getting there to where content production using these AI tools has become very effective. So the next, I think the next obvious thing is the creative assets. So make them faster, cheaper, more accessible. It really levels the playing field, I think, to be able to have graphics, to be able to create videos. And I think…

I think it’s going to, we are going to continue. could make this on an entire trend when I’m talking about agencies, traditional agencies, people who are doing tactics the same way, I think do risk some obsolescence. Agencies are not going to be replaced, but ones that are using traditional tactics and selling traditional tactics really run that risk. Our job, I think is going to be strategy. It’s going to be orchestrating.

using the rich set of tools that are available to us. So I think that that’s going to happen. You’re going to see more and more of it. Things like Dolly and Pictory that are allowing us to create video and image assets. All of the design folks, the Adobe’s of the world are going to get into this. Canva is actually adding. It’s a great tool to create for creative production.

being able to automate things across some of these platforms. So again, from the tools, start looking at Pictory AI and Dolly and Mid Journey. Adobe’s entry right now is called Firefly. These are some of the things that I think that we really need to understand, but they’re certainly disrupting.

John Jantsch (07:00.078)

you know, the industries as well. I would say, you know, where we are at the close of 2024 going into 2025, these tools are not the they’re not ready for prime time in terms of saying, I’ll just create all my images and all my illustrations, all my video. I’ll just have avatars, you know, creating those. mean, I think we’re a long way from people understanding how the market’s going to respond to those. And certainly you’ve all seen the kind of oddities that can be created, you know, using a dolly.

So we’re not there yet necessarily, but we’re moving there rapidly and certainly in 2025 it’s only going to continue.

This next trend, number four, I’m calling AI-driven marketing orchestration.

I think AI in a lot of ways is going to become the central hub for certainly for campaign management. I think we can make a case for a lot of things in operations and finance. You know, we’re all really going to be disrupted in terms of how we do things. So you could actually say, you know, I talked about marketing orchestration, but you could really talk a lot about business orchestration as well. But there’s no question that

that a lot of the campaigns, some of the automation, some of the integrations and things that we do today are going to be replaced. So you’re seeing many, many tools, HubSpot, know, go high level. You know, they’re building a lot of AI into, you know, email and, and add workflows. Even, you know, things like Google analytics are, you know, you’re going to start seeing people analyzing for insights. mean, a lot of, a lot of times just reports of like,

John Jantsch (08:41.89)

Here’s the data, make some sense of it. These tools are very, very good at doing that. So think you’re going to see really full scale AI driven automation and really something that’s going to allow us to automate a lot of the touch points seamlessly. So that’s something that I think we, it’s not a overnight buy one tool, get rich, flip the switch. It is just something that piece by piece.

S O P by S O P campaign by campaign, you’re going to start seeing people integrating these more effectively. All right. Now I’m going to come full circle because I think a lot of, you know, people look at these AI tools and they’re, they’re, they really look at them as, this is going to replace humans and this is a girl place our need to do, to do marketing or to have marketers in general. And I think to me, what it’s going to do is it’s going to,

No question it’s going to impact some of the things that were done by hand. Some of the inefficiencies is going to allow people to actually deliver more value, maybe more profitably if you understand how to employ these. And number five to me is actually the piece that brings this together. I think brand marketing, I call it as the new standard. Branding, brand marketing has always been important.

But I think in turn, when it comes to customer growth and to generating leads, a lot of people have gotten away from that idea because heck, if you could figure out SEO, you could get cheap leads. If you could figure out the ad platforms and certainly they would sell you all their data, you could get cheap leads. And I think that’s going away. That’s one of the things that generative AI is making go away. A lot of the easy search, a lot of the ad platforms are going to not being able to sell their third party data. And so this differentiation through brand marketing is,

I mean, it was so important, frankly, before we actually even had a lot of the online and digital channels that exist today. And I think we’re going back there to some degree that I think consumers are really going to be much more effective in aligning their values with the brand’s values. And the fact of the matter is, I say this all the time.

John Jantsch (11:03.778)

No matter how much we talk about all these platforms and tools and technology changing, the thing that continues to change rapidly is how people get to choose to buy. mean, so much of the power, if you will, in the equation has shifted to the buyer because they could find out so much more information. They can actually be well down their journey to making a purchase decision before we even know they’re out there. so brands that really want to differentiate today,

are going to focus on trust or increasing trust, increasing loyalty. you’re going to have continued regulatory scrutiny. I think it’s going to continue to drive some of that. and I think that we have to, as businesses, you know, really focus on aligning campaigns with authentic brand values. and, and really, you know, again, our ideal customer, you know, wants to see, and I think has the ability now to choose.

to work with companies that really do communicate their values. In terms of how do you go there, one of the things you might do is just audit everything you’re doing. mean, are you in alignment with your brand standards and your values? Are you putting out messages out there that don’t make sense necessarily to the market that you’re trying to attract? And frankly,

One of things we have to do is continue to monitor these things because consumers are going to become very wary of AI produced content, AI produced visuals, AI all the way to the level of AI produced video that can replicate somebody so thoroughly that it’s very, very difficult to tell if that’s the real person or if that is an AI video. And I think a lot of consumers are going to want to know.

They’re going to want that transparency in addition to that value alignment. those are things that I think we really are going to have to be very wary of.

John Jantsch (13:09.292)

I think we have the opportunity though to lead. And whether it’s in our business or it’s in, if we are an agency working with clients, I think we do have the ability to teach and the lead. When there are new tools, I’ve talked about AI extensively in this, when there are new tools, new technologies, there’s going to be a lot of misinformation. There’s going to be a lot of hype. There’s going to be a lot of people telling you all you need is AI to get rich. mean, every single day you’re going to be hearing those kinds of messages. And I think that.

It’s really, I think one of the things that we have to do is cut through the clutter. mean, that’s really always been what I’ve tried to do when I see a new technology. The first thing I want to know is can this help me do my job better? Can this actually help me provide more value for my customers? And if the answer is yes, I want to explore it. If the answer is no, it’s just a new thing. It’s everybody’s talking about it, you know, in ways that don’t make sense. I mean, I don’t really care about that.

But I think that’s how you can start breaking these new technologies down in very practical ways. All right, that’s all I have for today. Hopefully you find some interest in this as you charge into 2025 or if you’re listening to this in 2025, certainly some things to consider. Love to hear feedback. Feel free to send me messages. It’s just John at ductapemarketing.com. And of course we love that feedback. Well, we really love five stars actually.

On, on Apple or Spotify or wherever you choose to listen. All right. Take care. Appreciate it. Well, hopefully we’ll see you one of these days out there on the road.