John Jantsch (00:01): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. Hey, I want to give a shout out to another member of the HubSpot network, the success story podcast, hosted by Scott D. Clary. It’s one of the most useful podcasts in the world. Success story features Q & A sessions with successful business leaders, keynote presentations, conversations on sales marketing. Hey, and if you’re a freelancer, his episode on how to make seven figures freelancing on Fiverr is a must listen to the success story podcast, wherever you get your podcasts.

John Jantsch (00:46): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is April. Riney a world economic forum, young global leader, and ranked one of the 50 leading female futurists in the world by Forbes. She helps individuals and organizations rethink and reshape their relationship with change uncertainty and a world of flux. And coincidentally, we are going to talk about her new book called Flux: Eight super powers for thriving in constant change. So April, welcome to the show.

April Rinne (01:20): Thank you so much, John. I’m delighted to be here.

John Jantsch (01:23): So, so would you say that right now in this current moment that people have a new relationship with Jane?

April Rinne (01:28): That’s a loaded question. We need any relationship to change. I’m not sure that many possibly even most people have it yet. We’ve had a glimmer, but we have a lot of work to do.

John Jantsch (01:39): Uh, it’s a course, well-documented people hate change. So, you know, why, why is it that we resist change so much?

April Rinne (01:46): Well, I would actually argue. It depends. So our relationship human’s relationship to change. It’s messy, it’s complicated. And I come across people every day who are like, I love change. Well, humans and at the risk of generalizing a little bit here, but humans tend to love change. We can control that we can opt into, right? So a new relationship, a new job, a new adventure, a new haircut, right? Right. We tend to really struggle with change. We can’t control. So the kind of change that blindsides you on a Tuesday after noon, it goes against your expectations. It disrupts your plans, but meanwhile, like a change, a kind of change that’s really easy for you might be really hard for me and vice versa. So I bring all of this up because it’s like, there are, there is no one cookie cutter formula for assessing our relationship to change. But once we start getting into it, every person I’ve ever met has said, you know, there’s some aspect of your relationship to change that can use some improvement. So, yeah,

John Jantsch (02:52): So I don’t want to go too far down the pandemic rabbit hole, but I mean, we just had a giant experiment in, in massive change for a lot of people. And I saw a lot of people who were not those, I love change who said, well, let’s deal with change and let’s innovate. And let’s, you know, do what we have to do is that, I mean, clearly that was not under our control. It was not a change we chose, but I think there was an element of positivity to some of that change.

April Rinne (03:20): Yes. And that’s what we need more of. So the way I like to frame it, and also, I know, you know, this, but listeners may not, I didn’t write the book about 2020 or the pandemic I was working on this book since 2018. Although it’s been, I like to think of it as three years in the writing, but more like three decades in the major of just layering this on. But I have to admit in the last 18, 20 months I’ve been given like the best example, like the sense of the world being in flux has really been incredible acceleration and validation of some of these ideas. So humans are really adaptable when we’re forced to be. And I would argue a lot of what’s happened over the last year and a half. Our backs have been against a wall and it’s like, Ugh, I got to change or I’m not going to survive.

April Rinne (04:10): And whether that’s you or your business or your team. So we do. So the challenge we face is that as we look towards the future and whether that’s next week or next year or next, the next decade, the future has more of the kinds of change we can’t control. It has more of that kind of change you resist and struggle with. And it has so much more of that. And again, this is at individual levels, organizational societal so much as in flux that we need to not just radically reshape our relationship to it, but more specifically, we need to learn how to do this. Even in times of calm when our back is not against the wall, because what you don’t want, that, that we, yes, there’s some positivity in it, but it tends to be after the fact, it tends to actually be quite sometimes traumatic, chaotic, difficult, not fun when it’s happening. And that’s what I’m trying to help people do is like get ready for that kind of change in advance. And as I like to say, it can be a lot more fun when your back’s not up against a wall as well

John Jantsch (05:19): When you plan it or so, so I’ve always said, you know, comfort sometimes is the enemy I’ve changed. It’s like, oh, why it’s not broken? Why fix it? Even though it’s horribly broken, right? So are you, in some ways, are you advocating that we have to actually go out there and just seek change and make change and you know, not let it happen to us. Okay.

April Rinne (05:38): Yes. To some degree there is this active, like leaning in and it’s changed, but it’s also uncertainty. And it’s also from a leadership perspective, for sure. It’s also ambiguity this comfort with ambiguity. So partly it is seeking it out. I would say right now, at least. And you know, my theory continues to play out every day where it’s like, there’s, there’s just as much flux now, as there was a year ago, it just looks a little different. There’s going to be just as much next year. It’s going to look a little different. So like year up for the longer haul that life gives us opportunities every day to reshape how we think about, talk about, feel about, and ultimately relate and respond to change. So some of it is seeking it out and some of it is simply pay attention to what’s already happening all around you because there are a lot of big and small changes improvements we can make when it comes to change.

John Jantsch (06:34): Yeah. It’s funny. I actually have a sense that there are people struggling right now, more than they did say a year, year and a half ago when the change was like, you know, constant and dynamic. And now it’s just kinda like a grind. And I think that, I think that there’s actually more struggling. We, we, we have not actually dealt with this word. Flux Webster says it is a flowing, oh, a discharge of fluid from the body, especially when excessive or abnormal. And I won’t go on to cite the examples. And then of course, who could forget the flux capacitor from the fictional piece of technology that allowed us to, time-travel why the word flux.

April Rinne (07:10): Yeah. So you have just landed on the historical medical definition as well. And there are a couple others that I’ll add to the mix. Cause they’re fun because we had to do a lot of surveys and testing and, you know, flux, flux, conjures up for most people. It’s kind of fascinating, but they’re like, I don’t really know what it means. Occasionally some folks have said reflux. It’s like, no, no, but flux is both a noun and a verb. And in today’s modern usage, most people know the noun as constant change, continuous movement, motion, things are in flux, but it’s also a verb and to flux means to learn, to become fluid. And I love that because you can think of it as the world is in flux and we all need to learn how to flux a little bit better. Now, just a fun footnote.

April Rinne (08:01): Uh, there is this medical definition of flux was actually internal bleeding, not going to go there, but there you go. It also though, and this is the one way that I still see it used today. It is a substance, a chemical compound that’s used in metal smithing and jewelry making and stained glass making. And flocks is the compound that binds the Juul to the metal. So it’s this or it’s stained glass. It’s the compound that, that allows the, the glass, the beautiful piece of glass to nest in its casing. And I love that too, because it, it allows things to stick together that wouldn’t otherwise, and it helps create beauty, even though these two substances are very, very different. So anyway, that’s just a bit more etymology for us.

John Jantsch (08:48): Awesome. And I’m sure that there is a software company out there somewhere named, uh, to the uses the name as well. Right?

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John Jantsch (09:51): All right. So you then take this and give us a couple of new concepts. And I wonder if you could just, obviously there are many, but these are the two I picked up flux baseline and flux deficit.

April Rinne (10:01): Oh, how fun. So building on this notion of our relationship to change and central theme of the book is also this concept of a flux mindset. So the state of mind that can see all change, whether it’s good or bad, unexpected, or not as an opportunity to learn and to grow and to improve your flux baseline is really what is your relationship to change today? Because as we were just talking about some changes, delight us, other ones trigger us. Some changes, entice us. Other changes, derail us. Everyone is different in this regard. And everyone has strengths and weaknesses and areas of improvement and so forth. And so getting to your flux baseline is this notion of what’s your starting point for this journey to reshape your relationships change. And then a flux deficit is when you’re not, and this is such a fun term to riff on, you know, flexi people and flexing your flux capacity actually is another way to put your Fluxus. So a flux deficit is when you are not very flexy, when you are really struggling with change. And I ran a massive flux deficit for many years. I still, I still practice the superpowers. Everyone somehow thinks that because I’ve written this book that I’ve somehow like mastered them all. I’m like, no, I’m just exhibit a for all of them, but

John Jantsch (11:27): I’m much better than

April Rinne (11:29): Precisely. And I’m much better than I was years ago. But I also will have work to do for the rest of my life because that’s what the nature of change is about. But a flux deficit is, are, is, are, are those areas that need the most help when it comes to learning? How to, if not, embrace change, see change from a place of hope, rather than fear a place of curiosity rather than danger, which is what a lot of people are struggling with today.

John Jantsch (11:59): Surely there’s an assessment in here somewhere that somebody

April Rinne (12:04): Can call it your flux capacity.

John Jantsch (12:08): So I have often said, I don’t know where I would be on your continuum, but I would say probably somewhere in the middle because yeah, I I’m old and crotchety and don’t like change sometimes, but I’ve realized the value, I’ve seen the value in it. And so it doesn’t bug me as much. In fact, I’ve, I’ve, I actually think it’s changes sort of the art of living. And, and so if you come to that relationship with it, I mean, it’s still, I think it’s kind of like you in a way, you know, you still maybe struggle with it when it hits you, but by the same token, you, you, you see the value in it and it like shows up with a message, right?

April Rinne (12:42): Yeah. And another fun footnote on this back to nouns and verbs, I’ve heard, I’ve heard so many different framings and what I love about not just the book, but the concept is how people can kind of make it their own. And like, this is how it applies to me. And you said this, but I’m going to take it a little further. And I love that. But one of the, one of the best ways that to put it is that people love change. They hate being changed. So again, we love the, now we hate the verb, but it’s the being changed. It’s the allowing yourself to grow and evolve, which to your point, we tend to know like great growth comes often from the unexpected difficult changes. Right? Right. Easy to say that after the fact, at the time it’s like anything, but I’m going to resist.

April Rinne (13:26): I’m going to pretend it doesn’t exist. You know, all of that. And it’s overcoming that to kind of regroup again, back to this mindset, thinking of your mindset as a mental muscle, strengthening that mental muscle, that’s much more attuned to not just one change and like we’ll fix that and go back to the way things were. That’s not, it it’s this constant change. And this understanding that moving forward, the way I like to put it is there is no end game. There is no steady state other than more change. And that is a pretty big difference from what we’ve been taught for the most part over the last several decades.

John Jantsch (14:04): All right. You ready for the kindest question anyone has ever asked you?

April Rinne (14:10): Oh, of course.

John Jantsch (14:12): Would calling this a change management book, be doing it a disservice.

April Rinne (14:19): That was easy. So I love that you kind of predicted that question perhaps because I’m finding myself in conversations sometimes recently where people like, oh, you wrote a book about change, or you wrote a book about change management. And I’m like with all due respect to change management, I did not read a book about it. I read a book about humans, relationships to change, but I do want to call out the tension and the relationship between our mindset about change and our change management strategies. And that is that I believe we’re actually getting those things backwards. We are spending. And I say, we, the collectively we’re spending so much time trying to figure out change management strategies, how to invest in uncertainty, what to do in the outside world. And not just those things

John Jantsch (15:09): Go matter. We want hacks, right? Yeah. And

April Rinne (15:13): Those things matter, but what we’re not remembering or even realizing sometimes is that every single strategy investment and decision you make is fundamentally rooted in your mindset. So do you see change from a place of hope or fear? That’s not strategy that’s mindset, but that the answer to that question will absolutely shape and color and dictate the kind of strategy you set. Do you expect that things will go to plan and then get anxious or unravel when they don’t, that’s not strategy that’s mindset, but again, so the way I like to put it is it’s not that strategy doesn’t matter or change management doesn’t matter. It’s the mindset drives both of those things, not the other way around. And when we can get clear on that inner relationship to change all this external stuff becomes clear, change management is no longer this thing. That’s, I mean, we’re, we’re just, we’re trying to triage stuff, but we’re not actually doing the harder work which is gaining self-awareness about what again, what triggers us, what excites us? What is the baggage we bring to the table when we’re talking about any kind of change period.

John Jantsch (16:29): So you have a belt this around eight superpowers, that’s kind of the framework of the book. And one of the things that seemed at least hit me at first, when I was setting in and you have a nice graphic and all, is that all the elements have what I would call an element of mindfulness to them. And more than just intention. Is that just me?

April Rinne (16:51): No, that’s intentional. I love that you pick that up. Thank you. And you know, it’s interesting. I think more broadly I am walking this fine, but beautiful line between having written a book that is, you know, business it’s for leadership, it’s for teams. That’s kind of where I sit professionally, but there’s also an element of, I don’t want to go so far. It’s not self-helpy per se. I’m not a self-help, I’m not a guru. I’m not in that world, but this notion that all professional development and organizational development and strategy and execution all that, it is all rooted in personal growth. And this notion mindfulness, which isn’t something that until recently we found much in the business world, that’s at the core of everything and presence and self-awareness, and, and this ability to be rooted and grounded. And then that flows into all kinds of things around how we identify ourselves and how we value different things. How we look at our relationships and can we trust people and our pace of change and productivity, like it just shows up everywhere.

John Jantsch (17:57): So there are eight superpowers, as I said, and, and, you know, if you want to know what they are, go by the book, but I’ll ask you to talk a little bit about one that maybe stood out a little bit. And that’s the idea of the portfolio career. I mean, I’ve certainly, we’ve all heard people talk about that now. Especially if you’re a millennial, that’s, you know, what you’re supposed to be doing, but I’m not, I think in the context of what you’re talking about, I found that one to be the most sort of intriguing.

April Rinne (18:21): Oh, fabulous. And that one is unique amongst the eight in that it is very specifically geared towards the future of work that is itself in flux and kind of how we look at our professional identity in our overall career career development. So I love that you bring this up and each of the eight superpowers, I also have to give the kind of not caveat, but framing that they’re all counterintuitive in some way, they all go against the grain of what I think a lot of us have been taught about the world and how it works and how we’re supposed to show up in it. But a lot of what we’ve been taught is really for a world that is, as I will say, neat and tidy and orderly and predictable, you know, that the world as if we could tie it up with a boat, right, a world in flux flips a lot of that on its head.

April Rinne (19:08): So the concept of a portfolio career, the, the way that the superpower is phrased is that any future of work influx, we need to think about our careers and career development, less as a singular path to pursue or a ladder to climb. And rather more like a portfolio to cure rate as an, as an artist would, or an investor would, are lots of different kinds of portfolios, but it’s this sense of our professional identity goes so far beyond our resume. Our resume is capturing only a certain kind of data that not that it’s not helpful, it’s an incomplete picture of any person, what they can do, what kind of value they can add. But also your resume is very much for a linear kind of work where you would study hard, get good grades, go to college, get a job, do said job for a long time and retire.

April Rinne (20:02): Like that is a script that is a linear path. That is not the reality that we’re working in. And even before the great recession, sorry, not great recession, the great resignation that was in play, but the portfolio career concept maps really well with people also who are reconsidering, you know, what kind of professional life do they want, but also in the face of automation in the face of lots of unknowns, how do we actually prepare for a future of work that is a minefield of uncertainties. And so what I love to remind people is that every single person today already has a portfolio. You may just not realize it. And your portfolio is all of the skills and roles and ways you can contribute to society, add value. It’s not about titles and positions and so forth. Parenting skills are in your portfolio. They’re typically not allowed in your resume, right?

April Rinne (21:02): So you’ve got this, but also unlike a job. And I hate to sound blunt, but unlike a job that someone else gives you any job that someone else gives you, even if you love it, even if you’re great at it, even if everything’s going great, the fact that someone else gave you that job means that it can be taken away from you. And that makes a lot of people nervous and anxious and uncertainty just ratchets up your portfolio is yours forever. You own it. No one can take it away from you. It is your responsibility to curate it and to weave your narrative around it, but for a future of work and a world in which there’s so much, we can’t control this notion of a portfolio is something you actually can, and you’ve already got one and you can start today.

John Jantsch (21:52): You know, it’s been really fun for me. You know, I kind of poked fun at millennials a little bit there, but what’s been really fun for me is that, you know, who’s really waking up to this idea is 55. Plus you know, is really waking up to this idea, which to me is kind of cool. So art we’ve been, maybe you’ve been talking broader, but I think people have probably sensed it. We’re talking about individual and flux, but you know, can a culture have a flex capacity? Can an organization have a flex capacity? I mean, how do we apply those concepts to much larger? Uh,

April Rinne (22:26): Absolutely. So I get the question. Yes. Can an organization have a flux mindset? Absolutely. Yes. The key here and the book really is designed primarily for individuals because that’s where this starts, but I like to remind people, organizations are simply collections of individuals. And so when you bring those together, you have not just an organization that can be flexi, but this becomes part of your organizational culture. I mean, so much of this is about how do people relate to one another and then together, how do they relate to change? And then as an organization it’s built into, to design to just different processes, structures, et cetera. But yes. So start with the micro unit of the person, but then build that in organizations. I mean, at least so far organizations are still only as you could say, valuable as the people, in terms of a longevity in terms of the humanness as the people that are there.

John Jantsch (23:27): Yeah. It kind of becomes, I’ve got a new term for your flux ecosystem there. All right. So April tell people where they can find out more certainly about flux the book, but also your work anywhere you want to send them to connect with you.

April Rinne (23:41): So for all things flux, please head to flux, mindset dot lots, more resources, superpowers articles, et cetera. And then I also do have April rennie.com, which is more about the stuff. Not, it has a little bit of flux, but it has things like my hand stands on it. And people kind of found out that I do handstands. So they always want to know where to go for those.

John Jantsch (24:02): Awesome. Well, thanks so much for stopping by the duct tape marketing podcast. And hopefully we’ll run into the next time you’re in the Northwest, right? Did I read that? Is that right? Yeah. One of my daughters went to Gonzaga and so I spent for four years, I spent a lot of time in the Northwest, a beautiful area. So hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

April Rinne (24:20): Thank you so much, John. It’s been a pleasure.

John Jantsch (24:22): All right. That wraps up another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. I want to thank you so much for tuning in, feel free to share this show. Feel free to give us reviews. You know, we love those things. Also. Did you know that we had created training, marketing training for your team? If you’ve got employees, if you’ve got a staff member that wants to learn a marketing system, how to install that marketing system in your business, check it out. It’s called the certified marketing manager program from duct tape marketing. You can find it at ducttapemarketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that tab that says ‘training for your team’

John Jantsch (00:01): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. Hey, I want to give a shout out to another member of the HubSpot network, the success story podcast, hosted by Scott de Clair. It’s one of the most useful podcasts in the world. Success story features Q and A sessions with successful business leaders, keynote presentations, conversations on sales marketing. Hey, and if you’re a freelancer, his episode on how to make seven figures freelancing on Fiverr is a must listen to the success story podcast, wherever you get your podcasts.

John Jantsch (00:47): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Jeffrey Davis. He’s an author team culture consultant, educator, and CEO of tracking wonder consultancy for over 25 years. He’s inspired thousands of Changemakers leaders and creatives to unlock their best ideas through the pursuit of curiosity, innovation and wonder today, he’s got a new book coming out. We’re going to talk about it. It’s called tracking wonder reclaiming a life of meaning and possibility in a world, obsessed with productivity. So Jeffrey, welcome to the show.

Jeffrey Davis (01:24): Thanks. It’s always a pleasure to

John Jantsch (01:25): Hang out. Yeah. So, so I don’t know. I’ll ask a really direct question. Define wonder.

Jeffrey Davis (01:33): Yeah, that’s a good starting place, right? We think we know what it is, but then we’re like, oh, let’s wonder about wonder. Yeah. So through my research, I’ve come to a more clear understanding myself of what wonder is it is a heightened state of awareness that’s brought on by something unexpected that typically either delights us, disorients us or both. And I would say what the most remarkable things, qualities of wonder that it’s fleeting. Sometimes it happens just for a few seconds. I cite it, you know, a deer in the woods or, you know, a sunset sometimes, you know, you hear something that just catches you by surprise from a coworker, but it has long lasting effects. And the, um, the science of wonder is kind of caught up. I’ve been on this trail for over 15 years when there was very little science of wonder and it’s catching up really to show us the remarkable effects that has on our resilience, our thinking, and our capacity to connect with one another.

John Jantsch (02:31): So, and, and, and I’m sure you’ve talked about this before, and I’m certainly not the first one to bring this up, but you know, you go somewhere like, I don’t know, four or five-year-old child, I’ve got, one of my grandkids is about, is four and it’s so funny. We’ll go somewhere and I’m not paying much attention. I’ll hear go. Wow. And you look around, it’s like, what? Wow. Yeah. So we’re the point is we’re born with this in like large amounts. So how do we lose it?

Jeffrey Davis (03:04): I’m so glad you said that I have a seven year old daughter and a 12 year old daughter. And they’re great wonder trackers, but there are instances I have to say, John, when I’m a bit more in wonder than they are. And so wonder is not just kid stuff. It’s pretty, pretty remarkable grownup stuff. So yeah. Wonder does Wayne and it wanes in part neurologically. So when we’re about my older daughter’s age, 12, 13 years old, our Synopsys start to prune in the brain and we don’t have all of those, you know, great connections going on in our brain culturally, without a doubt, particularly in United States culture and even the Scottish Irish, which is part of my heritage, but the hard work ethic, we have a cultural bias against wonder and it’s, it doesn’t seem productive. And yet the irony of wonders that it, it can help us become remarkably productive without burning out or, or burning bridges.

John Jantsch (03:58): You know, one of the things, since you mentioned productivity, and obviously it’s, it’s in the title or subtitle of the book as well is one of the ways we are more productive or at least I find myself more is, is through habits, through rituals, through things that I do every day. And, and, you know, I wonder while, while on one hand that makes us very productive or can make us feel productive. It certainly numbs us a bit, I suppose, to, to change or to surprise doesn’t it. Okay.

Jeffrey Davis (04:28): Oh, this is such a great question. Nobody’s really touched on this. So rituals, which I have them in the morning to make me very intentional, I have some specific to wonder, but the irony is just what you said is that the ritual can become routine. And then it just becomes this sort of default expectation. And we’re wired the neuroscientists call this, uh, re network of the brain, the default mode network we’re wired. And so to sort of categorize things, get in routine so we can move on with our life. But the challenge for us in these times is to disrupt our default routines. Our default ways of thinking are, are even our default rituals, right, is to kind of make your ritual spicy, so to speak every once in a while.

John Jantsch (05:18): So you ride a lot, you work with it’s an in, as I read your bio, you work with a lot of creatives and have for a long time. And I think certainly, uh, you know, a true creative has no problem with this idea of, of wonder that I have to get in my state where I can be creative and not just be in my kind of rat race state. So how do you first off, I know you’re not saying that that’s who needs this, that’s your that’s who it’s for, but, so how do you get people past that idea of saying, oh, well, that’s fine for those people that we don’t know what they’re doing over there anyway, you know, and bring it into the workplace

Jeffrey Davis (05:56): At such a great, because that is also a lot of my work with professionals and executives and teams and organizations. So I will say I was heartened to see that the Harvard business review recently published an article from a couple of researchers that seem to get at the premise of our body of work about why managers and leaders need to protect their sense of wonder and our times. So, one way to think about what wonder does and how it benefits us in this world of work that has just shifted for everybody, is that experiences of one. So what the science of wonder is showing us that is that if we can habitually recall share, and foster experiences of wonder that by doing that, even in the workplace, right, even with team leaders, recalling sharing and fostering experiences of wonder these experiences actually boost our capacity to focus in these times of rampant distraction, they actually build our resilience.

Jeffrey Davis (07:01): And I won’t go into all of the science of how it’s now demonstrated to do so, but it’s as good for us as good rest and good, good diet. It gives us resilience to keep working for the marathon, not just the sprint and wonder is remarkably pro social. So this is the beautiful part. I think of my research in our times is it’s not just for the solo creative, you know, getting inspired with their ideas and some studio it’s pro-social, it actually can make us more generous with one another. It can also let me see if I can put it in this context too. It helps us see each other again, in a new way. So you were talking about, you know, how rituals can become a habit. We can become habituated with one another. Can’t wait, right. People, you know, attend any team meeting. And you’re like, ah, there goes so-and-so again. Oh yeah. We’ve sort of box each other in wonder, has this remarkable ability to disrupt our biased ways of thinking about a problem of seeing each other and even if seeing ourselves.

John Jantsch (08:11): Yeah, it’s funny. I live on the edge of a national forest and, you know, a deer walks by and I’m like, oh, whatever, another deer. And so, so, so how, you know, how do we, so I’m sure there are a lot of people that say, okay, yeah, this is a nice concept, Jeffery. I don’t disagree with the concept. We need more wonder in our life, but, but I’m sure that there are a lot of pragmatic people that are saying, give me the example of, you know, how I bring, wonder as an experience or, you know, how, how do I, how am I intentional about this? Because I think that it’s probably one of those things that is going to take some work or some practice for people.

Jeffrey Davis (08:47): It will. Exactly. So tracking wonder is a skillset and a set of practices that we all can learn and, and sorta reclaim that birthright as you alluded to earlier, right? We’re all born wide-eyed with wonder, and we can actually practice, right. Just this, you know, leaders want to practice becoming compassionate. We can practice, uh, fostering and tracking wonder. So yeah, in the book, I lay out what I call six facets of wonder six sides of wonder. So we can really start to identify, identify them in our lives and, and figure out how to foster more of them. So there’s openness and curiosity are two really important facets that we can develop the skill set for more actively and regularly to approach any challenges, more creatively instead of reactively, say for instance, a challenge comes up for you. The natural response might be fight or flight, right?

Jeffrey Davis (09:47): Very reactive is this part of how we’re wired, but instead if we can practice pausing that reactivity and get curious and ask really intentionally curious questions like what’s going on here and this challenge, this problem, how could we think about this differently? That’s just one activity, right? The next pair of facets are bewilderment and hope. These are really important facets of wonder that demonstrably build our resilience and our fortitude to navigate adversity and challenge, which I think the whole globe needs right now. So sometimes just to when, when we’re feeling down or like in a dark place, whether as a team or as an individual, we can catch that natural darkness. We don’t need to bypass it, but we can do things like stepping outdoors, taking a five minute walk, taking a breather, looking up at the sky. So to speak wherever you live, there is sky.

Jeffrey Davis (10:51): And you’re probably going to come away with a slightly different perspective than, than you did five minutes before the second, the third pair of facets are connection and admiration. And these are really central. And at the heart of your brilliance, which is marketing connection and admiration are the facets of wonder that are very pro-social and allow us really to see one another in a new way. So when we come in conflict, which is very common, whether we’re remote working remotely or in the workplace, we, when we come in conflict, there are a number of things you could do. Just pause in the moment of conflict, detach yourself from the situation and actually practice seeing the person in front of you or the person you’re in conflict with differently, new, like recognizing this person should probably not intentionally harming you or trying to make your life miserable.

Jeffrey Davis (11:45): So let me just pause here for a moment to John DOE and say for the teams that I work with, we just start first, we start with wonder at work assessment, just to kind of see where each team member is and those different facets and other areas. And then sometimes we’ll start with just a few wonder interventions that we figure out together. So what w what can we do at the beginning of the day or the beginning of a meeting differently? So for instance, team managers now simply sometimes start off a meeting with, okay, everyone share, just share a small highlight from the past week, or share something with us that kind of blew your mind, that forces you to actually not just focus on the negative or the problems, but actually see these beautiful moments that were actually quite meaningful and can really bond us.

Jeffrey Davis (12:37): The next set of interventions would be in the middle of the day. This is really, really important that all the research bears out is how to break better in order to work well. So sometimes it requires timing. Sometimes it requires a team agreeing at a certain time of day to break together, better step out doors, step away from the screen. I know remote teams, you’re like, okay, we all have to go outdoors and prove it to get away from the screen. And then finally, at the end of the day, or the end of the week, a certain, I guess you could call them rituals. We call them wonder interventions, where you come together and reflect what was the most meaningful for you in this past week. And so those beginning, middle and end wonder interventions are usually just a starting place for starting, you know, for really shaking up the default ways of working and working together. This

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John Jantsch (14:25): All right. So as I hear you talk about this, I want to break it into two ways that I think that I think most people will, will logically jump as a, just listening to you to describe that this is culture. This is stuff we’re going to work on in our organization. And I think a lot of people are open to that idea. I mean, I think everybody realizes the value that how would you apply this? Or how would you encourage somebody to apply this in a say, customer service or even sales role? So not to an internal team, but, but to actually bring this level of empathy out into the external world,

Jeffrey Davis (15:00): I love that you asked that in, in marketing and, and in sales. So let’s just start with openness and curiosity because you and I both know that we all can get into our default habits of sales and marketing. Like we learn best practices and, and we have certain biases, right. That are laid out in psychology. That if it worked one time, well, it should work a second, the third time. Right? So by just practicing some openness and curiosity, getting really curious and saying, Hmm, how could I approach the sales call just a little differently? And then let’s jump to connection. How could I actually attune to this person, ask some curious questions, genuine, curious questions, right? Because you know, the heart of marketing quite often is listening. Yeah. And really getting some resonance with what’s happening with the person on the other side of your sales call and then establishing some genuine, some genuine connection. It has to be, it has to be genuine really for it, for it to work.

John Jantsch (16:10): Right. And I think that’s sometimes one of the dangers when people, people are out there expressing this idea of, we have to bring more curiosity and we have to listen. I mean, these, these are concepts that people in some cases get shoved down their throat. That that’s what we need to be doing here. But I mean, how do you, how do you, how do you handle a situation where somebody is basically faking wonder for a while?

Jeffrey Davis (16:36): Um, that requires, that requires some self knowledge. So there is, there is a sort of untapped or in the book, that’s at the heart of this body of work. And it can start to sound like a little woo. But I grounded in classical philosophy from the Greek thinkers, the Greek thinker said that suggested that I’m talking Aristotle Plato, Socrates, not to get too wonky on your audience, but that we’re each born with this sort of force of character. That’s unique to each of us, that’s distinct to each of us. And they called it your on your, your genius as it, as it were. And it’s unique to each of us, but we were born forgetting it. But if we remember it at certain times and bring it to our word, bring it to our sales calls, it will guide us toward our best work in the world at whatever stage in our life.

Jeffrey Davis (17:31): So we do a lot of work with that. So one thing that the salesperson has to do their own self work and just like really acknowledge who they are at heart and what makes them come alive in sales. My father was a brilliant salesperson in the Dallas media world. And I asked him one time, like first ad, what do you do? And he said, well, I sell air because it was radio advertising. And then I said, why are you so good at what you do? And I always deliver what I promise and I really care about people. And so I’ve always remembered that. So, you know, the sales person who’s trying to fake, it has to really do the self knowledge to say, okay, really? What is the genius part of me that makes me come alive in sales? Why do I care about sales in the first place? And can I see the genius in the person on the other side of the sales call? That’s a really, now that can sound a little woo, but it’s a really important practice that probably any leader or manager who’s successful knows they have to do. They have to practice seeing the person on the other side differently.

John Jantsch (18:37): You talk about this, this idea of admiration, and there’s a line, uh, to quote, is the experience a surprising love for someone else’s excellence? I think that’s probably one of the, we, I think anyone who has done that has experienced the value of doing that, but it’s also seems to be in our, in our obsession to climb whatever it is. We’re climbing seems to be one of the hardest things to do.

Jeffrey Davis (19:01): Wow. I’m so glad you, that is the admiration chapter I have to say is my favorite chapter in the book. And I feel like it’s one of the most important, and I agree. I, and that’s why it’s the sixth. I think it is the hardest in our culture. We seem to admire big celebrities and heroes from afar, but we seem hard pressed to admire the person we work with to see them differently for the leaders to see the employees differently and admire their grit and their, you know, their character, but right. It is admiration is a surprising love for someone else’s excellence and character or craft. And so again, that this is that practice of really actively practicing, seeing the other person differently. This is a big game changer in culture, but also even for the small business owner who gets irritated with their customers. So I’ve worked with small businesses before and I’ve listened to how they described their customers. And I’m like, okay, we need to do just a little subtle admiration work.

John Jantsch (20:07): You’ve been working on this idea tracking, wonder for quite some time, you know, obviously you’ve, you’ve brought it together through, you’ve referred to it as body of work, your body of work of research and experience in doing this work. So if, and this answer, I assume, will change in a year from now, but right now, right, this is a book is coming out. What’s the impact that you want to have on, on the, on the reader or the people that, that take even a, just a kernel of this.

Jeffrey Davis (20:35): Yeah, thanks for that question. I really want this book to be the antidote to quitting. And we’re in this season of quitting nationally in the United States, but I also mean quitting the antidote to quitting on our dreams and the antidote to quitting on our ideals. We have some big challenges ahead individually and collectively, and I really want this book to serve, to catalyze us, to keep reaching for possibilities.

John Jantsch (21:01): Yeah. I th I feel like there’s a, you know, we went through a 10, I want to rehash the pandemic on every show, but I seem to get, get there one way or another. We, uh, went through the spirit where everybody was like, I almost felt like there was an energy around, how do we have to change? How do we have to shift? How do we have to help each other? And now we’re 18 months in and the slog has just kind of become, you know, something nobody’s talking about anymore, but we’re all still experiencing that, that, you know, that is, you know, you talk about this great resignation, you know, that people talk about. I think that, I think that’s why we’re coming to a head in that

Jeffrey Davis (21:34): I do too. I appreciate your saying that too. I remember that that spring of 2020 and my girls were home and I was actually quite ecstatic that they were, we were camping in the backyard and, you know, I don’t want to make light of the situation because there was real suffering on our part and on so many people’s parts, but there was this sort of awakening, so to speak. And that facet of wonder called bewilderment. I think the whole globe was experiencing it, but you’re right. All of a sudden then we have to sustain hope, right? That we are going to continue to learn. What’s been really exposed, right? That’s been broken in so many ways in our institutions and our, our old habits personally, and collectively that I really do want this book and what ripples out of this book to serve for us to really stay open and keep questioning the status quo, whether that’s the status quo in our own lives or the status quo in our workplaces, really questioning our own assumptions.

Jeffrey Davis (22:32): I’ll just say I had, I was talking with a client, who’s a president of a company and he was in bewilderment. Betty said, you know, what is our new metrics for productivity? We never had a good metric. And so how am I going to measure like the 250 employees coming back where I have to, you know, say, give him credit. When the pandemic came blocked down and so forth, he was like, okay, we need to take care of home first for our people. And then we’ll take care of work. But now that people are coming back into the workplace, I just love that question because he’s staying open. John, he’s staying open to the questions as opposed to go into the default answers and, and immediate closure.

John Jantsch (23:19): So Jennifer tell people where they can connect with you and obviously find out more about the book itself and the work that you’re doing around wonder.

Jeffrey Davis (23:26): Yeah. Thanks. This has been a real pleasure. They can go to tracking wonder.com. They can also go to tracking wonder dot.com/podcast bonus. And we’ll let, we’ll have a wonder at work assessment they can take and maybe a couple of other bonuses for your listeners.

John Jantsch (23:40): Awesome. Well, I appreciate it is obviously a great having to stop by the duct tape marketing podcast. And hopefully we can run into each other one of these days soon out there on the road. I hope so too. John take care.

John Jantsch (23:52): All right. That wraps up another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. I want to thank you so much for tuning in, feel free to share this show. Feel free to give us reviews. You know, we love those things. Also, did you know that we had created training, marketing training for your team? If you’ve got employees, if you’ve got a staff member that wants to learn a marketing system, how to install that marketing system in your business, check it out. It’s called the certified marketing manager program from duct tape marketing. You can find it at duct tape, marketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that tab that says training for your team.