Weekend Favs February 4

Weekend Favs February 4 written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

My weekend blog post routine includes posting links to a handful of tools or great content I ran across during the week.

I don’t go into depth about the finds, but I encourage you to check them out if they sound interesting. The photo in the post is a favorite for the week from an online source or one I took on the road.

  • AI Text Classifier by OpenAI–  You can test your text to see if it is written by AI with OpenAI’s text classifier. It is provided as a tool to encourage conversation about AI awareness.
  • LingvaNEX– This voice-to-text transcription service can transcribe up to 92 languages with unlimited volume capability at a lower cost with more audio transcribed. It requires specific hardware and can be integrated into any business system for unlimited user access.
  • Excel Formula Bot– Finally, an AI-powered tool that turns text instructions into Excel formulas quickly and for free. It is available for both Excel and Google Sheets and has various features, such as generating formulas quickly and explaining what a formula means in seconds. 

These are my weekend favs; I would love to hear about some of yours – Tweet me @ducttape

If you want to check out more Weekend Favs you can find them here.

Why Community Is The Last Great Marketing Strategy

Why Community Is The Last Great Marketing Strategy written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Marketing Podcast with Mark Schaefer

Mark Schaefer, a guest on the Duct Tape Marketing PodcastIn this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Mark Schaefer. Mark is a globally-recognized keynote speaker, college educator, marketing consultant, and author of books such as Marketing Rebellion – Cumulative Advantage, and Belonging To The Brand: Why Community Is The Last Great Marketing Strategy.

Key Takeaway:

Mark Schaefer argues that brand communities are the future of marketing strategy. In this episode, he highlights the major benefits of building community from a marketing perspective and the role they play in the world of business.

Questions I ask Mark Schaefer:

  • [2:03] What’s the difference between community and audience/customers?
  • [3:45] Would you say you don’t have community if people aren’t talking to each other?
  • [6:08] Would you say there are very few people that have actually activated a community in the way you’re talking about as a marketing strategy?
  • [8:18] There’s a real hunger nowadays for community wouldn’t you say?
  • [12:01]  You actually introduce a new idea that I hadn’t heard of but it’s the genesis of a business being community-based. That this is actually how it starts as opposed to it being a bolt-on channel – could you talk more about this idea?
  • [14:26] Why do you call this book the last great marketing strategy?
  • [16:32] You suggest that if you don’t start your community with purpose first, you’re doomed to fail right out of the gate. Could you expand on that idea?
  • [19:38] Talk a little bit about the technology aspect of a community from a practical standpoint – how does community management play into this?
  • [22:43] Where can more people learn about your work?

More About Mark Schaefer:

Learn More About The Agency Intensive Certification:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Outbound Squad, hosted by Jason Bay and brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. The audio destination for business professionals host Jason Bay, dives in with leading sales experts and top performing reps to share actionable tips and strategies to help you land more meetings with your ideal clients. In a recent episode called Quick Hacks to Personalize Your Outreach, he speaks with Ethan Parker about how to personalize your outreach in a more repeatable way. Something every single one of us has to do it. Listen to Outbound Squad, wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Mark Schaefer, a globally recognized keynote speaker, college educator, marketing consultant, author of books such as The Marketing Rebellion and Cumulative Advantage. But we’re gonna talk about his latest book today, belonging to the Brand, why Community is the Last Great Marketing Strategy. So Mark, welcome back to the show.

Mark Schaefer (01:17): Thank you, John. I love writing new books cuz it’s an excuse to talk to you. .

John Jantsch (01:22): . Well, I think this is at least your third appearance, if not Martha,

Mark Schaefer (01:25): At least. At least. Yeah. Yeah. And thankfully we do get a chance to talk to each other, you know, once in a while in between, but it’s always nice seeing

John Jantsch (01:33): You. That’s right. I did run into you recently. Where in Boston? Marketing? Boston.

Mark Schaefer (01:39): Oh, Maine.

John Jantsch (01:40): Oh, well is it been that long?

Mark Schaefer (01:42): I think it might have been Maine, yeah.

John Jantsch (01:44): Oh, okay. I thought we ran into each other at a, at another, another event more recent than that. That seems like eons ago. That was like pre covid.

Mark Schaefer (01:51): Well, that was pre Covid.

John Jantsch (01:53): , yeah. That’s gonna, that’s gonna be the new like, like BC and AD now it’s gonna be pre Covid, post Covid. I don’t know. All right, let’s get into your book. Um, first off, I want to get a definition what’s, I mean, what’s the difference between community and like audience or even customers?

Mark Schaefer (02:09): Yeah. Well I think that’s an important janan one I hit right up front in, in the book. You know, I think there a lot of people might have a blog or a podcast and they say, this is my community, but it’s really not. It’s an audience and that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with that. I look, I owe a lot to my audience. I have a deep emotional connection with my audience, but it’s one way. Mm-hmm. . And if I go away, the audience goes away. It’s a sort of a cult of personality. The beauty of community is it brings the emotional connection to the brand to a new level. Because not only do people love you, they love each other in the group. I’m sure you experienced that with your own, you know, your duct tape community. So from, for, here’s something so interesting, John. I mean, I went down a lot of academic rabbit holes on psychology and sociology when I was writing this book. But it suggests that the bonds built in the community, that those friendships and that love spills over to the brand. It almost suggests it’s more important to build these relationships in a community than to build the relationship between the customer and the brand. And it builds this emotional switching cost. Because if people have friends in the community, well, I can’t leave this brand. These, this is my place, these are my people. So it’s really quite profound when you get into the marketing benefits of community.

John Jantsch (03:45): So a couple things I want to touch on that I heard you say, one of the key differences is, is instead of one to many, it’s a true network. Yeah. So to speak. And there’s not, well, there might be a leadership structure or guide, you know, it’s really the individual. Like you don’t have community if people aren’t talking to each other. Right.

Mark Schaefer (04:02): . Yeah. Yeah. And I, and it’s a great point that you make that when you talk about the leadership structure, and I think this is one of the most important values of the book, is it talks about really the new leadership mindset required this friend over in the UK who had a B2B marketing agency and he created this community and the community is now bigger than the company. He’s gone all in on this community. This is where he is getting his revenue. Yeah. And he said it’s so intimidating and disorienting to, you know, just all the stuff we learned at the university is turned upside down about leadership, about giving up control, about nurturing people. You’re not trying to build a staff. You’re trying to, you know, build leaders in your community. You know, in marketing that you and I do over the years, it’s ephemeral. You know, you have a campaign, right? When the money runs out, you start something else. A community, there’s like this implied social contract. Yeah. That’s new for marketing. , that’s new idea. But what I hope people get out of this book is that community isn’t added through the lens of brand marketing is. Yeah. You and I have been around a long time. When was the last time you and I, when was the last time you’ve been to a marketing conference where they’ve got a track on community and it’s this obvious opportunity staring as right in the face and it’s just almost completely overlooked by the world.

John Jantsch (05:44): Well it’s interesting because as you noted, well first off, you know, churches were communities, schools were communities, small towns, you know, talk about, you know, community. So as you said, we’ve always had that tribes and the initial native tribes were communities. But then when I think when we all went online, all of a sudden we had access to people outside of our community who believed the same thing we did. And so we have been talking even in marketing circles about community for, you know, at least 15. But I think there are very few people that have actually activated a community in the way that you’re talking about as a marketing strategy. ,

Mark Schaefer (06:23): Right? Yeah. I mean, if you remember when the internet began, the first thing a lot of people tried were communities, right? Coca-Cola I remember had a community, most of the big brands, even like one of the oil companies like Exxon had like a community thing, right? I mean you can see that why that wouldn’t work very well , but everybody tried it. But you know, in the early days they were built to try to sell stuff, right? They didn’t really have the right bandwidth. We didn’t have the right technology. You couldn’t do video and it just didn’t work. So most communities failed. The communities that survived. Almost all of them are transactional. It’s customer self-service. Oh, your problem with your software, go into our community. And I think the way the world, the reason the world went that way is because it’s easy to measure. You can see the ROI of that kind of community because it’s cost avoidance. And we completely overlook this idea of if we have like-minded people coming together, we can collaborate and co-create and it builds trust and it builds loyalty. And you’ve got customer advocacy and you have di a direct line to consumer information. And it, it’s just, I think I put together a very compelling case in the book to say, Hey, yeah, wake up and at least consider this idea.

John Jantsch (07:55): Well I know over the years, you know, I have sold for years, I’ve sold courses, I’ve sold training, I’ve done one-on-one. I will tell you some of the most beneficial programs that I’ve ever run have been small cohorts of people coming together Yeah. In a group. And I think that while I wouldn’t call that a community necessarily, even if we come together five or six times over, you know, so many months or something, people get very connected. And I think that that in some ways what I’m witnessing is just a real hunger that people have for this, right? I mean, it’s not just that people need to create this, it’s that there, there’s a real hunger. There’s a, you even start the book talking about, you know, a lot of this is driven out of loneliness, which has probably gotten far worse. , you know, for a lot of people that aren’t going into offices anymore.

Mark Schaefer (08:38): Yes. The first chapter of my book is probably the most depressing chapter in the history of different books, . Cause I start off talking about my own childhood loneliness and how I was lost. I I something happened to when I was a kid that just made me a shadow. It just, it made me someone just a ghost of a person. And then a miracle kind of happened in high school where I was embraced by a community and I was always haunted by this idea of what if that didn’t happen? I mean, I was going down this road of isolation and depression and this is why it’s significant. And this is one of the reasons I wrote the book. I saw this headline in the New York Times that said the loneliest generation talking about our children and our teenagers and the pandemic didn’t cause this. No. It was, it’s been creeping up actually for decades.

(09:38): But the pandemic really amplified things. And just like you said, that we’ve got generations like just living in their rooms. And one, one of my students said my, my my daughter graduated college the last year and a half of college was spent in her bedroom cuz it was remote. Then she got a job that was remote . She said the last this important two and a half years of her life, the big change in her life has been moving from one room to another. And she’s so lonely and she’s so desperate to see people. And so we are, we do long to belong. And I’m not being Pollyannish John, this is a business book. It’s based by data, it’s based by research. You know, that’s sort of a hallmark of my books. But there’s also this aspect that community heals. It not only works as a marketing idea, but it really heals.

(10:40): I mean we need this, as you say, psychologically, sociology, sociologically even there’s a little bit of research in the book that shows h helps us physically to be happy and belong. So I mean, it it, it is a business book, but I think it also sort of creates this sort of new meaning to marketing. We, it’s the only marketing I think our customers would actually embrace because they need it. And I think that’s a powerful idea. If you create not only marketing that works, but marketing that, that heals. That’s, that’s something that appeals to me. Hey,

John Jantsch (11:18): Marketing agency owners, you know, I can teach you the keys to doubling your business in just 90 days or your money back. Sound interesting. All you have to do is license our three step process that’s gonna allow you to make your competitors irrelevant, charge a premium for your services and scale perhaps without adding overhead. And here’s the best part. You can license this entire system for your agency by simply participating in an upcoming agency certification intensive look, why create the wheel? Use a set of tools that took us over 20 years to create. And you can have ’em today, check it out at dtm.world/certification. That’s DTM world slash certification. You actually introduced what for me was kind of a new, it’s probably not a new term, but it’s the genesis of a business being community based. That that actually being the way that it starts as opposed to a bolt on channel.

Mark Schaefer (12:18): Yeah. It was new for me and really inspirational. And I guess you’d have to say this was another sort of seed that was planted in the book. You know, I was writing, it was like 2018, I was writing Marketing Rebellion. So I was like on the lookout for new marketing models. Mm. And I was at the social media marketing world and was at this, uh, breakfast held by Andy Costadina, one of our mutual friends. Mm-hmm. and Dana Malstaff was there, first time I ever met her. She started telling me she had, she was an entrepreneur, she had been pregnant and didn’t feel like couldn’t find a lot of support for being a mom and being a business leader. So she created this Facebook group, cut Boss mom. Long story short, in the first nine months she was making a six figure income. She now has 70,000 members in this group.

(13:14): It’s nearly a million dollar business. She always corrected me. It’s not quite a million dollar. She said, mark, don’t call it a million dollar business. I’m almost there. But in a short period of time, her business has been doubling every year. No sales department, no marketing department, no marketing budget. Sort of a remarkable idea. She’s a, she’s created this million dollar business in a short period of time with no marketing budget. Because if you have this community of 70,000 people, she just, they just are eager to buy her courses, her videos, her events, her coaching, her workshops, because they believe in her. They love being in this place. They belong to her as a brand. And so she doesn’t have to sell. She was careful to say, I can sell . Right. Yeah. She knew it if she needs to, but she said I don’t need to.

John Jantsch (14:11): Yeah. I suspect a lot of people underestimate, you know, how much selling probably is, but not in the traditional negative way that we think about it. Yeah. Right, right. I mean you’re, you’re selling the vision, you know, of belonging and that’s, that’s still, you know, a sales job in some ways you call this, I mean it’s in the subtitle last great marketing strategy. So you, there’s nothing left. Like there’s no more. This is it.

Mark Schaefer (14:33): Well it’s gotta be my last book. Right? Well the reason, yeah, I know it’s a very, it’s a provocative subtitle, but this is the way I looked at it. First of all, it was the first marketing strategy. You know, when, you know, my, my grandparents lived in Pittsburgh and they shopped at these neighborhood stores and the people at those stores knew my grandparents, they knew their family, they knew their kids, they knew their birthdays. They would talk and it was a community. It was a community atmosphere. And I’m just one generation away from that and I’ve never experienced that and I just long to belong to something like that. So it was really the first way that the first marketing is you belong there. And I think we live in this community, in this world now where we have this streaming economy, you know, last night, you know, I was batching it last night, so I got on to Netflix and just binge some show and then, you know, tomorrow I’m going on a trip and I’m gonna listen to Spotify for hours and hours and I might listen to an audiobook and all these hours I’m consuming content.

(15:46): I am not going to hear one ad, I am not gonna hear one brand messaging. There’s gonna be no PR spin. And so we’ve gotta find something new. Yeah. And I think when all the interruptive advertising and the spam and the robocall finally go away, the last thing we’re gonna have is community. Because we’ve always had community, we’ve always needed community and we always will. And so I think this is the one thing in this fast, crazy world we can really count on. Our customers need this. And I think this could be a long lasting strategy if it’s done the right way.

John Jantsch (16:32): It’s one of the points that you make, I think in probably has its own whole chapter. If I recall, you know, I’m envisioning somebody listening to this going, we need to do community, we need to increase customer retention by 12%. So let’s start community. Yeah. And you suggest that actually if you don’t start with purpose first, yeah. You’re doomed to fail right outta the gate.

Mark Schaefer (16:53): Well, most communities fail. That’s the hard fact. And the main reason why they fail is because the communities are created to sell stuff. Right. And that’s great and we gotta do that, but it’s not a reason to gather. So you have to think about what is the intersection between what you do and what you believe in and this and the purpose of your customers. And one of the things I’m proud of in the book is I have dozens of brand new case studies, diverse b2b, b2c, big companies, you know, small companies. There’s even a stay-at-home mom with five kids that has a community of 50,000 people in this book. So it’s very inspirational. Yep. But I will rely on good old Harley Davidson. It’s a worn out example. But you know, here’s a, it’s a transportation company, but they don’t have these crazy ads. You know, we’re going crazy.

(17:56): Come down, it’s President’s Day sale. You’ll never hear that from Harley. You never will because they’ve got points of differentiation, right. About their look and the leather and all this stuff. But the purpose that unites them, and this is, this unifies that company and I have firsthand experience with this. I’ve worked with Harley Davidson. They are obsessed with everything they can do to make you a badass. That is what, that’s what if you wanna be a badass, they’re gonna help you do that. And that’s why they never need to have a sale. That’s why they’re never in your face with all these stupid ads. Because you know, you can really only be a badass if you have Arnold Davidson . Right. So it’s all based on this pur on this unifying purpose. You wanna be a badass, we wanna help you be a badass. And that’s the way it goes. So I spent a lot of time on this in the, in the book helping cus helping businesses think through what do you want to accomplish in the world? And you can do it better if you’ve got your customers with you. There’s lots of prompts I think to help businesses think that through. And, but it does, it, it it does start with a, not just a purpose, but really a unifying purpose.

John Jantsch (19:22): I hate to get too practical from go from purpose to tools , but you did kind of mention one of the challenges early on was we didn’t really have great tools for building community. You know, there’s a whole new breed of community platform cropping up through the, you know, I’m thinking of the circles, you know, of the world. Yeah. So talk to a little bit about both the technology but then also the practical standpoint. I think where a lot of communities fail is they think that you just put a bunch of people in there and they’re gonna like mingle. And so, you know, there has to be a community management aspect as well as the, you know, whatever the technology is, doesn’t there.

Mark Schaefer (19:57): Yeah. You know, in, in that part of the book, I stay pretty high level because,

John Jantsch (20:05): Because it’s all changed already. , it’s

Mark Schaefer (20:08): Changing

(20:09): And I can’t tell you what to do because Yeah, look some pe the only piece of advice I really give in the book is it’s probably going to help if you meet in a place that’s organic to your every, the everyday experience of your community. So if the people in your community, if they go to LinkedIn every day, maybe you should be on LinkedIn. If you go to Facebook or Twitter or Slack every day, maybe you should be there. Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm , my community is on Discord. I fought and kicked and screamed not to be on Discord , my community is about learning about the future of marketing and the community said, look, if we’re gonna learn about the future of marketing, we might as well learn about Discord. So I couldn’t argue with that. So there we are. The one thing I point out in the book that I think will be fascinating to any marketer is, are these new ideas about NFTs and Web three and the Metaverse?

(21:08): And I point out in this section of the book, talking about the future of the community, why many of the things we rely on in marketing today, like social listening platforms are gonna become obsolete in some ways They already are because Gen Z, they’re not on Facebook. Yeah. They’re not on LinkedIn. Even business majors. I gave a presentation to Esther’s degree students at Rutgers, almost none of them were even on LinkedIn. It’s like they resisted, where are they hanging out? Discord. Twitch arguably the biggest community in the world. I could even say Fortnite, right. Is a community. And guess what? They’re undetectable and like gens, when we talk about Gen Z, we’re not talking about babies. The first member of Gen Z just got elected. The Congress. Yeah. They’re here, they’re buying stuff, they’re gonna be our new leaders. You know, they punch way above their weight when it comes to culture and fashion and music and art. And I mean they’re having an incredible impact on our society and they’re invisible. And so, so, and I don’t have answers to that, but I think considering where these new communities are popping up, number one they, there’s an implication there for our own communities. Number two, there’s an implication there just to for finding these people cuz they are in communities. Yeah. But you and ie. You, you may never know it. Yeah.

John Jantsch (22:45): Speaking with Mark Schaffer on his wonderful new book, belonging to the Brand Mark, you want to tell people, I know the book’s available anywhere, but uh, you wanna invite people to connect with you in any fashion as well as check out the work you’re doing.

Mark Schaefer (22:55): Sure. Thanks so much John. You know, it’s just always a joy to speak to you. And so you can find me@businessesgrow.com. You’ll never remember how to spell Schaffer. You might not even remember how to spell Jan .

John Jantsch (23:10): I guarantee you we’ve both got the that S C H in common. But other

Mark Schaefer (23:14): Than that, yeah, you can remember Grow. And if you can remember that you can find my book, my blog, my podcast, my social media connections. And I’d love to hear from you. And John, thank you so much, as always.

John Jantsch (23:25): Well, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing podcast and hopefully we’ll run into you soon. Mark one of these days out there on the road. Hey, and one final thing before you go. You know how I talk about marketing strategy, strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that, what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the Marketing Strategy Assessment. You can find it@ marketingassessment.co. Check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketing assessment.co. I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network.

HubSpot Podcast Network is the audio destination for business professionals who seek the best education and inspiration on how to grow a business.

 

 

 

The Story Of A Young Entrepreneur Building A Better World With A Nonprofit

The Story Of A Young Entrepreneur Building A Better World With A Nonprofit written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Marketing Podcast with Camden Francis

Camden Francis, a guest on the Duct Tape Marketing PodcastIn this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Camden Francis. Camden is the Founder and CEO of the Nonprofit Organization Beyond the Crisis Beyond the Crisis, the food-distribution charity, which has distributed over 100,000 dollars of food items to housing communities and homeless shelters across Massachusetts.

Questions I ask Camden Francis:

  • [2:01] What was it that lead you to start ‘Beyond the Crisis’?
  • [2:20] What were some of the challenges along the way?
  • [3:33] What’s the actual function of the organization, and how does it work?
  • [5:25] When you were getting started, what was the hardest thing?
  • [6:26] Did you ever have a moment where you just felt like I just can’t do this anymore?
  • [7:24] Would you say that your youth or your age has been a help or a challenge or both?
  • [8:32] Was there also that moment or like one day that you remember where you said to yourself, this might actually just make it?
  • [9:33] What has been the most rewarding thing about this?
  • [11:20] What’s the vision for the future of the organization?
  • [14:09] Do you see yourself as an inspiration?
  • [14:51] What are your top three or four latest reads that you think everybody ought to read?
  • [15:45] Is there someplace you’d want to invite people to check out Beyond the Crisis or obviously any way to connect with you personally?

More About Camden Francis:

Learn More About The Agency Intensive Certification:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Nudge, hosted by Phil Agnew. It’s brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. You can learn the science behind great marketing with bite size 20 minute episodes packed with practical advice from world-class marketers and behavioral scientists. And it’s not always about marketing. Great episode. Recently you learned the surprising truths about and tips for beating, stress and anxiety. Sounds like a great program, doesn’t it? Listen to Nudge wherever you get your s

John Jantsch (00:48): Hello.

John Jantsch (00:48): Welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jan, and my guest today is Camden Francis. He’s the founder and c e o of a nonprofit organization called Beyond the Crisis. It’s a few food distribution charity that’s distributed over $100,000 of food items to housing communities and homeless shelters across Massachusetts. I should also tell you that Camden is 18 years old. His nonprofit Beyond the Crisis landed him on the Drew Barrymore talk show, Bloomberg Radio podcast, numerous podcasts with npr, including All Things Considered. So we’re gonna talk about his entrepreneurial journey. So Camden, thanks for joining me.

Camden Francis (01:28): Thanks so much for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here.

John Jantsch (01:31): Well, I, I have to say you, you have a, you earned an honor. You are the youngest guest I think I’ve ever had on the show. Wow. I betcha I’m not the first person that’s told you that though. Oh, you’re, you’re pretty young to get started in accomplishment. It’s, yeah, yeah. It’s what you’ve accomplished at such a young age is newsworthy, so that’s why you’re making it on these shows. So let me, let me ask you about Beyond the Crisis, going back to when you started it, cuz I know you’ve been doing this for at this for a little while. What, I mean, what was it that led you to start, what, what made you say I need to do this thing?

Camden Francis (02:02): So it was really at the height of the pandemic. I’m very ambitious. I’m an entrepreneurial minded kid, but I really wanted to do something to help my community. So it was that combined with like entrepreneurship that really turned an idea into like a mobilization to really help families in need.

John Jantsch (02:20): Yeah. So talk a little bit about the start of it. Was it, you know, talk a little bit about the challenges. I mean, starting any entrepreneurial venture is a challenge. So what were some of the challenges? And then maybe kind of talk a little bit about the day-to-day what, what the organization actually does on a day-to-day basis.

Camden Francis (02:37): Yeah, so kind of during the, like the days of like founding this organization, I did it with my 13 year old brother. We were so young at the time. One of the things that we did was we got a mentor so we reached out. I have a great network. I’m very fortunate. My dad also is an entrepreneur himself, so that’s helpful. But I reached out to the CEO of Y M C A in Metro North region. Her name is Kathleen Walsh, she’s my mentor to date with the nonprofit. And that really helped us not fall into too many kind of pitfalls because like we kind of bootstrapped the organization, which means we self-funded it and with resources from a 13 year old and at the time I was 16. So it’s pretty amazing that today we’re able to distribute a hundred thousand dollars worth of food items. But it really goes to show you that kind of it you, if you put your mind to something and if you get the right partners in place, you really have good people behind you and a community that really can use your idea, it’s marketable and it can really help people then it can really go far.

John Jantsch (03:33): Yeah. So talk a little bit about the day-to-day, what, you know, what’s the actual function of the organization, how does it work?

Camden Francis (03:39): So day-to-day what we do is we kind of reach out to kind of housing communities and homeless shelters across Massachusetts that can really use kind of food items. So we kind of have them fill out surveys and they get back to us with kind of what they need. And usually we can fulfill those requirements because we also have sponsors in place. We have sponsors in a trustee board. The trustee board is what we took from like colleges. We saw colleges and universities. They have kind of dedicated donors like every month that really believed in the mission and the CO that they’re supporting. And we saw why can’t we do this at a nonprofit level? So that’s really helping us. But yeah, also our corporate spots is a really great, they’re kind of large kind of food brands and they kind of can help with the specific food donations necessary.

(04:24): But we have a great network. We’re kind of linked with kind of governors, congressmen. One of our most strategic donors right, is Jim McGovern, who’s kind of a huge advocate for kind of the US and global food insecurity, health and nutrition. And also we’re heavily involved at even a national level with the podcast outreach. I mean the media outreach that we’ve done. And we’re kind of also involved with the White House and helping them kind of strategically use some of our research because what we’ve found is we’re food distribution charity, which is pretty unique because we’ve found that there’s actually enough food to go around, but families lack access to available food elsewhere. And a lot of food right now is just getting wasted. So we have people on our team working with food recirculation, so kind of taking food from restaurants that isn’t really used and will go to waste and redistributing it to soup kitchens. And we have people on the ground who are drivers kind of delivering the food from point A to point B. And then we have the operations on the executive board who kind of handles the operations of the

John Jantsch (05:25): Organization. What was, I mean o obviously listening to you describe what you’ve accomplished really in a fairly short time. But when you were getting started, what was the hardest thing and and again, think of anybody starting any entrepreneurial venture, what was the hardest thing for you?

Camden Francis (05:39): I would say in the most humble manner, because I was so young, I knew that I didn’t have right the knowledge that a lot of 40 and 50 year old entrepreneurs had. And it wasn’t necessarily naive to say, but it was like the ability to kind of make mistakes that was really scary. It’s scary for entrepreneurs in general, right? They don’t always know if their idea’s gonna work out. But being at such a young age, you hear feedback from like other people in your inner circle, family and friends and there’s like, they’re like, yeah, right, like this isn’t gonna happen. But really seeing kind of the progress that we’ve made so far and saying really focused and present has really been a blessing for me, my brother and the other people around this organization and my family as a whole. So it’s great seeing it come together.

John Jantsch (06:26): Was there ever a time you felt like chucking it? It’s like why am I bothering, this is just too hard. I mean, I know what I was doing when I was 16, 17 years old, , there was a lot of other things that, you know, that I wanted to go do. I mean, did you ever have a moment where you just felt like, I just can’t do this anymore

Camden Francis (06:43): many times because it was really during the beginning that we, I’ve had that moment now, not so much because I see kind of what it’s doing for families, right? Who really could use and benefit from it. But during the beginning when like my friends kind of wanted to hang out constantly and some of the plans I couldn’t make, it was definitely hard to kind of make those sacrifices. But knowing that they paid off to date is really great. But yeah, I really, I did this nonprofit to learn about to, in addition to help people to learn about entrepreneurship as a whole. And I’m currently launching a, like a tech startup right now that’s even more kind of, I would say interesting and almost unique.

John Jantsch (07:24): Awesome. So would you say you are, you hinted at this a little bit, talking about how in some ways you were so young that you didn’t know what you didn’t know and you weren’t afraid to like ask because you weren’t maybe embarrassed by, you know, by not knowing. Would you say that your youth or your age has been a help or a challenge or both?

Camden Francis (07:45): It’s definitely allowed me a platform, right? To really kind of tell my story to uh, kind of communicate what I’ve done and what I plan to do and kind of how I plan to continue to help families in need. That’s really the main goal of the organization and it’s really important with nonprofits to just really stay focused on the goal. Why are you doing it and how can it help people? But being so young in the beginning, I really wasn’t taking seriously, I was sending so many emails they were getting bounced back, rejected, rescinded ghosts. But yeah, it really kind of gave me perseverance and it’s good to be young and kind of have developed these skill sets early on. So when you’re older you kind of have this knowledge, you have skillsets developed and you can really kind of make an even bigger difference because that’s what I plan to

John Jantsch (08:31): Dos. So was there also, I talked, I asked you if there was time you felt like quitting. Was there also that moment or like one day that you remember, you know, maybe you got some buddy to say yes, you know what where you, where you said yourself, this might actually just make it.

Camden Francis (08:46): Yeah, I, for us, really one of the greatest days for us is kind of being on the Drew Barmore show and being able to tell our story mainstream in front of a live audience and have it also make national coverage on c V s. And that was kind of like a breaking point because at that point we kind of had an audience, we, we had listeners, we got volunteer opportunities from that, more donors, we had partner opportunities. I had the ability to network with even um, more powerful influential people such as CEOs of companies. You name it like governors. It was, yeah, it was a really kind of, when I look back at it, it was a almost gonna be a core memory probably in my experience as a young entrepreneur. But yeah, there it’s been a rollercoaster ride

John Jantsch (09:33): And now word from our sponsor. Look, if you’re anything like me or every other entrepreneur out there, your 2023 is probably off to a rock and start. And as a leader it could be challenging to align your teams on a shared mission and goals for the new year. But with HubSpot’s crm, you can keep your marketing, sales, operations and service teams in sync on one powerful platform that grows with your business and leaves your competition in the dust. Capture leads. Boost sales and engage customers all from one powerful platform. Tools like a unified contact record, help desk, automation and customizable reporting make it easy to unite your team around a single source of truth, which means you can spend less time managing your software and more time connecting with your customers. Learn how HubSpot can make your business grow better @ hubspot.com. So

John Jantsch (10:31): What would you say, and I think you’ve already hinted at this, but I’m gonna ask you anyway, has been the most rewarding thing about doing this, putting in the work?

Camden Francis (10:39): I would say the most, yeah, the most rewarding thing for me was kind of doing it with my younger brother. We’re so close, we’ve gained so much knowledge about entrepreneurship and just having him as a partner. You know, we’re very close and eventually kind of when our parents kind of pass us on the baton, it’s really great to have like a best friend who you can trust and who you can bounce ideas with, idea with and just grow together. And I would say that’s definitely one of the best things for me.

John Jantsch (11:10): Yeah, that’s awesome. So I think I read this somewhere, your college bound?

Camden Francis (11:19): I am, yeah. So I currently applied waiting to hear back. I applied to a select number of colleges, a few Ivys, Vanderbilt over in Tennessee. I applied to Duke, so like top, top colleges and I’m playing to, I study either entrepreneurship or finance. So yeah, it’s exciting waiting to hear back, but

John Jantsch (11:38): So what does that mean? Assuming you’re gonna go off, what does that mean for the organization?

Camden Francis (11:43): Yeah, so right now because of how we run the organization, a lot of our kind of staff are virtual and we have a really great volunteer base. But we’re planning to grow the organization super organically. And what that’s gonna allow us to do is kind of just keep growing at small and steady rates and keep making a small impact. When I’m in college, we’re probably not going to grow and scale anymore, but we know that we can kind of retain what we have and continue to help like a specific number of families, which we’ve already kind of kind of assessed and worked through. So

John Jantsch (12:17): Yeah, so that was my next question was, you know, what’s the vision for the future for the organization? But it sounds to me like you almost want to take where you are now and just get better at doing what you’re doing

Camden Francis (12:27): Exactly. But we also have vision for the future. We really wanna stay focused, stay present, but we really want to turn it into a family foundation to kind of establish a a long lasting legacy of giving and have something in the family where either I can donate time or resources to my brother or kind of even maybe 10 years down the road, who knows if the organization’s still gonna be running, but kind of having this be like a family thing. Like the Francis family founded this and this is what we do, here’s our impact and kind of this is our legacy. So that’s the play.

John Jantsch (13:01): So little bro, you’re ceo, is that it now?

Camden Francis (13:04): Yeah, I think I’m gonna give my brother some of the reigns for sure. I’ll definitely be on call helping out. It’s great kind of with Zoom and Google Meet and all these apps, right? You can kind of do conferencing like we’re doing now. But yeah, I think that I’ll just kind of keep it small, keep it manageable, that’s really kind of the main thing.

John Jantsch (13:22): So are you able to talk about the tech startup that you’re working

Camden Francis (13:25): On? There’s a lot of disclosure around it, but I can give a few specific kind of details and really what I’ll go into, I’m not gonna go into the design aspect of it because it’s very, but we’re gonna almost our kind of like partner or the organization, our main competitor is gonna be LinkedIn and we’re gonna make this app almost like kind of how Facebook started it around college campuses. LinkedIn is, it’s a great app, but I’m finding that it’s hard to find internships on the, on the app. It’s hard to find job opportunities, especially for really young, talented, um, individuals and students out of college, right out of college. So by making a platform that’s very user-friendly and allowing it to be college-based, have students kind of make groups and be able to kind of establish whether that be like whatever groups, life groups, fitness groups, stuff like that.

(14:19): And in addition, it would be a great networking app, which is also, which also allows students to kind of not just waste mindless hours on social media, but kind of use social media to kind of allow themselves to impact their futures and really kind of create core connections. And then with that corporations, right, we can go on our app and they’ll pay us like a fee, a costing fee, but over time, right? If we get corporations, large corporations, there’s so many of them costing fee or if you have their fee, the retention there is going to be pretty great. And also if we kind of get, get a user base right when these users grow up, it could be the next big app because they’re gonna already know how to use it, they’re gonna be familiar with it, these college students, then they’re gonna get maybe older thirties, forties, then their kids are gonna also be familiar with it. So it’s a great time to launch something like this.

John Jantsch (15:07): Awesome. So here’s the hardest question I’ll save for last. Do you see yourself as an inspiration be seen as such?

Camden Francis (15:13): I’m so humble that I’m really trying to grow my skillset, grow my mindset, stay concentrated, stay focused, and in the future who knows where life will take me. But as of right now, I’m so grateful for the work I’ve done so far and I’m very motivated. It’s great kind of to have motivation when I wake up in the morning, I’m excited, I’m ready to go. And that’s just, it’s great. It’s really great and I’m super blessed for it. But eventually I plan to kind of keep growing my platform too.

John Jantsch (15:45): Are you a reader?

Camden Francis (15:47): I am, yes.

John Jantsch (15:48): Yes. So, so where, what books does give us your top three or four latest reads that you think everybody ought to

Camden Francis (15:55): Read? Yeah, off the top of my head, I think I might have a few of ’em listed somewhere. Hold on one sec. Sure. Sorry about the delay here. I just, off the top of my head, hard to remember. Okay. So How To Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. That’s on my list.

John Jantsch (16:14): That book’s older than Me even. Yeah,

Camden Francis (16:17): great book. It’s a Relic, the lead startup Crushing it by Gary Vaynerchuk. And then I also am big into podcasts, so I look at kind of the Harvard Business Review and kind of how this was made podcast and a few other podcasts such as that. But yeah, I’m a big reader. I love to kind of learn and that’s kind of how I ideate how I get these ideas, how I network big part of. Awesome.

John Jantsch (16:41): Awesome. So Camden, tell people, is there someplace you’d wanna invite people to check out beyond the Crisis or obviously any way to connect with you personally?

Camden Francis (16:50): Yeah, sure. So I have LinkedIn, a Camden Francis, uh, you could go check me out there. I’d love to connect. I’d love to answer questions regarding the organization, what I do, and also be on the crisis’s website. Go check this out. www.beyondthecrisis.org. Everything’s up there. Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:06): Awesome. Well, Camden, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing podcast and good luck wherever your next ventures Legion. Maybe we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Camden Francis (17:16): Yeah, maybe. So thanks again for having me. It’s a pleasure.

John Jantsch (17:29): Hey, and one final thing before you go. You know how I talk about marketing strategy, strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that, what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the Marketing Strategy Assessment. You can find it it @ marketingassessment.co. check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketing assessment.co. I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network.

HubSpot Podcast Network is the audio destination for business professionals who seek the best education and inspiration on how to grow a business.

 

 

 

Weekend Favs January 28

Weekend Favs January 28 written by Shawna Salinger read more at Duct Tape Marketing

My weekend blog post routine includes posting links to a handful of tools or great content I ran across during the week.

I don’t go into depth about the finds, but I encourage you to check them out if they sound interesting. The photo in the post is a favorite for the week from an online source or one I took on the road.

  • Decktopus – A fresh tool for creating professional presentations and proposals quickly and easily, with features such as templates, design styles, and the ability to embed forms, videos, and websites into slides. It also allows for sharing documents as links, embedding decks on a website, and exporting as PDF or PPT.
  • Piggy – Unleash your creative potential with Piggy’s vast collection of customizable templates. Easily create eye-catching designs and share them across your social media platforms, giving your accounts a stylish upgrade.
  • The Ultimate Guide to Maximizing Your Media Spend with Performance Ad Creative – This post by Marketing Agency – Tuff – is a must-read for any digital marketer dealing with paid ads. It discusses the importance of ad creative in the advertising industry. It highlights the need for unique and engaging ad content to reach and connect with target audiences effectively.

These are my weekend favs; I would love to hear about some of yours – Tweet me @ducttape

If you want to check out more Weekend Favs you can find them here.

The Secret To Attracting Your Ideal, High-Ticket Clients

The Secret To Attracting Your Ideal, High-Ticket Clients written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Marketing Podcast with Russ Ruffino

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Russ Ruffino. Russ is the Founder of Clients on Demand, an Inc. 500 company that helps coaches, experts, and service providers attract the right clients at the right price, anytime they want.

Key Takeaway:

If you’re looking for some serious advice on how to attract high-paying clients and not sure where to start, Russ Ruffino—the mastermind behind Inc. 500 company Clients on Demand joins me to share exactly what it takes to appeal to (and secure) your ideal client at just the right price. He’s sharing the expert tips that could change everything about how you do business.

Questions I ask Russ Ruffino:

  • [1:30] Could you tell us more about your story?
  • [5:08] What are the mistakes people in the industry (coaches, consultants, small agencies) are typically making when they come to you?
  • [7:32] What has to be in place in order for people to want to pay you twice as much?
  • [12:08] What does it take though to build trust?
  • [14:43] Do you absolutely need to have a niche?
  • [15:35] Let’s talk a little bit about your client attraction system – is there an approach that you think for selling high-ticket items is the way to go right now?
  • [19:36] Let’s say I’m a management consultant – do you feel like this approach can work for somebody that’s doing high ticket but maybe one-on-one or not necessarily the traditional coaching industry?
  • [21:55] Where can people find out more about the work that you’re doing and more about you?

More About Russ Ruffino:

Learn More About The Agency Intensive Certification:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Nudge, hosted by Phil Agnew. It’s brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. You can learn the science behind great marketing with bite size 20 minute episodes, packed with practical advice from world-class marketers and behavioral scientists. And it’s not always about marketing. Great episode. Recently you learned the surprising truths about and tips for beating, stress and anxiety. Sounds like a great program, doesn’t it? Listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Russ Ruffino. He’s the founder of Clients on Demand and Inc. 500 company that helps coaches, experts, and service providers attract the right clients at the right price anytime they want. So, Russ, welcome to the show.

Russ Ruffino (01:07): Thank you. It’s great to be here.

John Jantsch (01:09): So, listeners, this is the Construction Zone episode that you might be hearing some background noise, but hey, you know, the show must go on. We’re professionals here. We can work through this. So, so Russ, tell me a little bit about your, I told in the bio, I told you what you do now. Sure. I’d love to hear a little bit of your story. Like everybody has a great story of how they got here, .

Russ Ruffino (01:30): Yeah, my, I mean, my story’s all right. It’s, I should probably just make up something more exciting. But basically I, I was a bartender in Los Angeles from age 21 to age 31. I was there in LA because I wanted to do acting. And when you’re, you wanna do acting, you’re waiting tables, you’re giving massages your personal training, you’re bartending, you’re doing something right. And I turned 30 and things just were not going my way in terms of my career. And I, you know, I just had no idea what I was gonna do. So one day I was on break at work and I walked into Barnes and Noble and right there sitting on the shelf was before hour work week by Tim Ferris. And I originally thought, what the hell is that four hour work week? That sounds like nonsense, but I’m interested enough that I’ll pick it up and read it.

(02:12): And that book really introduced me to this idea of, um, making an online income, making a passive income online. I didn’t even know that was possible until I read that book. And so I said to myself, look man, I, you know, come hell or high water, I’m gonna figure out a way to make this work. I’m gonna figure out how to do this. So I started doing just a little bit of online marketing, a little bit of affiliate marketing here and there. Started making a little bit of money doing it. I think I was making maybe like $500 a month maybe. And then one day at work I got, I really got into it with my manager and, and I wanted to tell ’em off. And I, I didn’t have the guts to do it. And I went home and I told my, my, my girlfriend, who’s now my wife, I said, David, you know, I got in a big fight with my boss and I really wanted to tell him off.

(02:48): I didn’t do it. And I just, I feel like I’m being a worse to myself. And she looks at me dead in the eye and she goes, you gotta quit. And I was like, okay. And she had just lost her job two weeks before. And it’s not like, again, I wasn’t making a fortune online. I was making $500 a month, maybe, which is certainly not enough to live on when you’re in la. I think my rent was like two grand or $2,400. Crazy. Yeah, I’m crazy like that. But I said to myself, look man, I bet that if I try to do this full-time that I, I can make it work. So I walked in there, equipment bartending job, woke up the next morning, you know, I went to bed feeling incredible and proud of myself. Woke up the next morning, terrified in terror cuz I didn’t have enough to cover rent, literally the next month.

(03:28): But, you know, long story short, I went to work making money online and I could just do it. I could write copy, I could do sales letters, I could do sales videos, I could do. And I had never done any of these things before. There was an actor and a bartender. I had no idea about marketing. But I ended up doing $250,000 my very first year and, um, changed my life. So then I went on to create my own low ticket products. And the problem then I realized in doing launches, and I realized the problem with low ticket and launches is it generally speaking, people don’t do anything, right. They’ll buy your $27 program, your $97 program, they’ll watch it. They’ll say, oh John, that program was awesome. I’ll rush. That program was awesome. And you’ll say, did you do anything? You know, did you take action?

(04:04): No, not really. I’ll get around to it. . So I asked myself, look, you know, what would happen if I flipped this model on its head? And instead of trying to work with thousands of people to low ticket price, what if I started charging five or eight or $10,000 to work with me? And I started working with fewer people. And uh, that’s what I did. And I guessed that if I did that I would probably be able to work with a lot fewer clients that I’d be able to make more money, that those clients would be more committed and they’d give better result. And that’s exactly what happened. So when I first switched from low ticket to high ticket, I did $200,000 that first month. And then I haven’t looked back since. And today the business is doing, you know, well into the eight figures. And it’s just amazing. You know, the was, people are now, they’re getting results, now they’re taking action, now they’re doing the work. And it’s, it’s just unlocked a whole new level of joy in this work because now I can see the difference it’s making in people’s lives. And that’s really what gets you outta bed in the morning.

John Jantsch (04:52): Yeah. So you like a lot of people, I mean, you figured out how to do something and then all of a sudden it’s like, hey, there’s a lot of people that need this. I can teach this to other people as well. So that’s really become your business hasn’t, is teaching other people how to do what you discovered how to do. Right,

Russ Ruffino (05:06): Exactly. Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:08): So talk a little bit about some of the, like when people come to you, you’re probably seeing the same mistakes over and over again. They clearly you’re, you know, set up to fix mm-hmm. . But how do people typically come to you? And we’re talking about coaches, we’re talking about consultants. Sure. Maybe small agencies. So talk a little bit about like the mistakes they’re making.

Russ Ruffino (05:27): Well, most of the time right outta the gate, they’re undercharging. And so they decide to get into coaching and they look around in their, in their space. There’s usually some other people that are already doing this. You know, if you’re a marriage coach, you’re not gonna be the first marriage coach the world is ever seen. You know, there’s other people doing this. And so the mistake they make is they look at those other people and they go, God, you know, that person’s got better branding than me and all, they got better pictures than me. And maybe they’re better looking than me and their website’s a little nicer and everything. And they’ve got all these followers on YouTube and Instagram. Oh man. And their program is a thousand dollars. So how so I better price mine at 700 bucks or whatever. And what we teach our clients is that what your competition is doing is irrelevant.

(06:05): Because fundamentally what people are buying from you is not your knowledge, it’s not your expertise, it’s not your time. What they’re buying is an outcome. There’s a certain result that they want to achieve in their life. And that’s the value you provide. And so what that means, John, is that all of your pricing should be based on what it’s worth to have that outcome. Like if you can really save someone’s marriage, what is that worth? You know? I mean, it’s priceless, right? So of course you can charge five or eight or $10,000 for your work. And when you do that, now all of a sudden, like I was saying, you can get, you can work with fewer clients. They show up committed, they show up resourceful. You know, you can give ’em a real v i p experience and actually get people the outcome, actually get people the result.

(06:46): So the first mistake is that they’re undercharging. And then I’d say the second mistake I see is that a lot of them don’t have a client attraction system. They’re depending on word of mouth, they’re depending on referrals. And they, people are very proud of that fact, well I haven’t, I’ve never had to advertise and I get all my clients through referrals. I’m like, and that’s great, you should be proud of that. But PS it also means you can’t scale because you’re constantly gonna be going to your clients. Do you know anybody else you could send to me? Do you know anybody else? And eventually they’re gonna be like, no dude, I’ve referred everybody that I can. So unless you have the ability to run ads on Facebook or Instagram or YouTube or TikTok or wherever and turn those ads into new clients, you know, you have a business but it’s not a business you can scale. And, but when you do know how to do that, you’ve got something you can build up to a hundred K a month, 500 K a month, even up to like 1000001.5 million a month because now you can turn advertising into dollars. Does that make sense?

John Jantsch (07:32): Yeah, absolutely. But you hit on a really key issue. I think a lot of people don’t think about outcome. They don’t think about the problem they’re solving. They think about the thing they’re selling. Mm-hmm. . And I think until they can get over that, you know, they’ll never really, because I, you know, I tell people all the time, raise your prices and they’re like, I don’t how. Right? So, you know, it’s not, I mean, it’s really nice for you and I to sit around and say, you should double your prices. Right? . But people are like, okay, how do I do that? What it has to be in place in order for people to wanna pay me twice as much?

Russ Ruffino (07:59): That’s a great question. So, and I really think you actually just hit the nail right on the head, is that people put all of their attention on what they’re selling. Meaning the course, the program, what are the bonuses? What are, what’s the, you know, whatever, it’s an eight week program, you know, it’s a 12 week program, you know, it’s a six month program or now getting into the, you know, the guarantee if you don’t get results all come to your house and wash your car or whatever, you know, what you are selling is the outcome. And that is what you need to build all of your communication around, right? Like again, using the example of a maybe a marriage and family therapist. In fact, I have a client who’s a marriage and family therapist. She was a marriage and family therapist in Australia. I think she was charging a hundred dollars an hour.

(08:36): She was seeing couples in her office. I think they were making about $70,000 a year doing that. She came to work with us, I believe it was four years ago. And we took her whole business online and now she’s doing a million dollars a month. So, so getting her to understand that it wasn’t an hour of her time that people were buying, cuz that was what all of the marketing, all the communication was around. And so the customer understood, well, I’m buying an hour over time, you reorient all of your communication to make it crystal clear that what they’re buying from you is a saved marriage. You know, what they’re buying from you is to lose 30 pounds. What they’re buying from you is to have a business that works, whatever it might be, and then you charge accordingly. And believe it or not, that reassures people that you are the best of the best. And that’s something that I think people need to understand. Doesn’t matter if you’re just starting out, what matters is can you get them the outcome? And are you building all your communication around that?

John Jantsch (09:27): Yeah. And I actually see the other side of like, there’s also this belief of well, it, it’s too good to be true. It’s too cheap. Like, you know why you surely can’t get me the result, right? Of

Russ Ruffino (09:36): Course that’s so common. Because the thing is like, if you are a coach, then chances are you solve some of the biggest challenges in life or in business. You know, you’re a dating coach and you help people find the love of their life. You’re a trainer, you help people get into amazing shape, you’re a nutritionist, you help people get into shape and fix their autoimmune conditions, whatever else they have going on. All of those outcomes are priceless. And so if I come to you and I go, listen, I’m gonna help you do this. We’re gonna work together for eight weeks, but at the end of that eight weeks, you’re, you are not gonna recognize your marriage. You are gonna be in a completely different level of love. And you know, with your wife and attraction and passion and PS it’s eight grand. Now I’m gonna take you seriously. No.

John Jantsch (10:08): Yeah. And I think that that, you know, the part that I see people, you know, they just, they don’t like just what you said. We’re so used to selling time or we’re selling a product, you know, that’s tangible. And I think that if you can get somebody a result, I don’t care what it costs. Like if I got a million dollar problem and you could solve that crisis is way down the list.

Russ Ruffino (10:28): Mm-hmm. people need to understand that, especially if it’s a million dollar problem and you’re charging ’em ak, then it’s a steal. And you think to yourself, well $8,000 is a lot of money to save your marriage. No, I mean I got a client, a Jamie who works with teenage girls that are having some serious problems and the parents hire her to work with the daughter and work with the parents to restore that relationship and get the kid back on track. Now look, I don’t have any teenage kids yet. My oldest is seven. But if I was in that situation, I’d mortgage my house, I would sell, I’d sell my other three kids just to save the one kid . But like you do whatever you have to do to get that outcome because you got no choice. It’s your kid. If someone’s gonna charge me a hundred dollars an hour, I’m sitting there going, God, you know, I hope this works. But if somebody comes in and says, Hey look, we’re gonna work with your child for 12 weeks, it’s $10,000, but your entire relationship with them will be transformed. Now I’m, now you’re talking, that’s what I want.

John Jantsch (11:21): Hey, marketing agency owners, you know, I can teach you the keys to doubling your business in just 90 days or your money back. Sound interesting. All you have to do is license our three step process that’s going to allow you to make your competitors irrelevant, charge a premium for your services and scale perhaps without adding overhead. And here’s the best part. You can license this entire system for your agency by simply participating in an upcoming agency certification intensive look, why create the wheel? Use a set of tools that took us over 20 years to create. And you can have ’em today, check it out at dtm.world/certification. That’s dtm.world/certification. What does it take though to build the trust? I mean, right, I’ve got a million dollar problem, but how do I know you can solve it? I mean, what’s it take to like get to that high ticket trust?

Russ Ruffino (12:16): So this is the thing that no one seems to understand. The conventional wisdom out there in the marketplace says that if you want to have high ticket clients, then you really need to spend a lot of time in energy building your authority. You need, you know, a million followers on Instagram, a million followers on YouTube. You need to hit podcast, you need New York Times bestseller, you need 50 different things. And uh, that’s what everyone told me when I was first starting in high ticket. And I said to myself, well you know, God, I don’t have any of those things. So let me try and do this without any of those things. And let’s see, let’s see what happens. And I’m really happy to be able to come and report to you that you don’t need any of that stuff. The truth is that if you want to establish your authority, you only need one thing.

(12:54): And that’s empathy. Empathy. So when you come onto one of our webinars, mine or one of the ones that we create for our clients or one of our marketing pieces, what you’re gonna hear is you’re gonna hear that marriage coach describing your problem better than you can. You know, maybe saying something like this, does this sound like you do? You wake up every morning 10 inches away from the love of your life, but you feel like there’s miles separating you. And every day that gulf is getting bigger and bigger. And if you’re in that situation, you’re like, yeah, that’s exactly how I feel. You know, has your situation between you and your wife gone from being, you know, F but lovers to friends now to roommates and you have no idea how it happened. You know what I mean by describing your problem where you’re going? Yes. That’s exactly what I’m going through. Your immediate reaction is that this person must have the answer, right? So if I can describe your problems

John Jantsch (13:43): Better they they get me. Yeah.

Russ Ruffino (13:45): Right? Yeah, exactly Right. And there’s this thing that people have where we assu, you know, when we hear someone describe our problems better than we can, we automatically assume they know the answer. And so by creating that empathy and that connection at the beginning of the webinar, right, where like, I don’t have to talk about myself. I don’t have to talk about my accolades, I don’t have to talk about how great I am. I don’t have talk about you. Let’s talk about you and your problems and I will tell you what you’re going through and once you, I accurately describe what you’re going through and then I can tell you, look, and then I bet you’ve tried this and you’ve tried this and you’ve tried this other thing and none of that’s worked and here’s why. And here’s the thing that will work. Now you’re gonna wanna work with me. And so all of that time building up your authority, you can do that in a 10, 15, 20 minute video, a 40 minute webinar, something like that. You can do it very fast.

John Jantsch (14:27): So common vice right now is, you know, niche, you gotta have a niche, right? I think I go back and forth on that. I mean, I like to work with people I like to work with, not necessarily dentists. Mm-hmm , that’s the wrong with dentist, but . But I like, you know, I like working with people who have the values. I have the same, you know, beliefs I have. So, you know, do you absolutely need to have a niche?

Russ Ruffino (14:47): So what you do is we don’t start with the niche. What we start is what is that problem that you solve? And then once I know what that is, I can ask you, well who do you most want to solve it for? Or who is the, what is the piece of that audience that you most wanna work with, right? So you don’t have to niche down again, I’m just gonna beat the marriage example to death cuz that’s something everyone understands. You know, maybe you are, maybe you’re really Christian and you tell me like, hey Russ, you know, I want to do, I want to, I wanna help people save their marriage, but I really wanna work with Christian couples. Sure you can absolutely do that. On the other hand, if you’re like, you know, I don’t care if they’re a Christian, Muslim atheists, you know, or whatever down, I’ll help them. I’ll work with ’em to save their marriage. So y you don’t need to narrow down in that way, but if you want to, you usually can. But it’s more about what’s the problem you solve and who’s got that problem.

John Jantsch (15:35): Let’s talk a little bit about your client attraction system. I mean, is there one channel, you’ve already said you don’t need to have a thousand or million followers and this and that. So is there a, an approach that you think for selling high ticket items is the way to go right now?

Russ Ruffino (15:48): Yeah, absolutely. So the best method that we have found to attract high ticket clients is to run ads on social media. So that’s Facebook and YouTube and Instagram are the three best right now TikTok is looking pretty good, but it’s a little bit inconsistent right now cause they keep changing things. So you got those four platforms there, you run ads on those four platforms, you drive that traffic into like a 20 minute presentation. So it could be a video, they could be automated webinar, whatever, but for 20 minutes they’re gonna sit there and listen to you do what I just said. Where you’re connecting with them, you’re showing that empathy, you’re explaining to them why the other stuff they’ve tried has not worked and can’t work. And then what you’ve got instead and why that approach is better. And then you offer them the chance to book a call with you, Hey, you know, if you wanna learn more about how you can apply this stuff to your marriage and get things turned around, you know, click here to book a call and that’s it. Then you get on the phone with them and in one conversation you can enroll them into your five or eight or $10,000 programs. So one of the things that we do that’s different than most other coaches, we don’t teach our clients to do a lot of follow up. I saw a guy the other day saying, well if you wanna make sales on the phone, you gotta follow up with that person 16 times. Like, I dunno about you, but like I , like there’s just no way that’s gonna happen. Yeah, I’m

John Jantsch (16:51): Getting the restraining order right now. Yeah,

Russ Ruffino (16:53): Of course. It’s like, dude, so 95% of our enrollments happen on that very first conversation and most of the time they booked that call within like 24 hours of clicking on our ad in the first place. So what I’m talking about is taking people who’ve never heard you, never heard of you before, they don’t follow you, they don’t know who you are, but they see your ad and your ad speaks directly to them. They click the ad, they watch your 20 minute video, 10 minute video, whatever it is, they book a call with you and then they’re enrolling in your high ticket programs within 24 to 48 hours.

John Jantsch (17:22): And I can, uh, that’s the exact approach you use in your own business as well. Cuz I’ve, you know, I went through your webinar and I, you know,

Russ Ruffino (17:28): Oh nice. Good follow up. Yeah, that’s good. And I see that, I see that more and more now, man. It’s like people will be like, oh yeah, you know, Facebook groups is the best way to get clients. And then, you know, you click on their ad and it doesn’t go to a Facebook group, it goes to a webinar. I’m like, what are we doing here? You know, like,

John Jantsch (17:43): Yeah. One thing that people might have missed is you skipped the, I hate these terms, but you skipped the trip wire and the low cost stuff and the, you know Yeah. Up to upsell to this crap and upsell to that crap. And you go right for if this is for you, here’s how you get it.

Russ Ruffino (17:57): Yeah. So there’s this myth that says that if someone buys something from you, even if they buy something for $5, then now they’re a buyer. And the buyer leads are worth so much more than any other leads. And that’s absolute nonsense because they’re not buyers, they’re $5 buyers. And a $5 buyer is not a $10,000 buyer necessarily. They might be, but you don’t know. What I’ve found, man, is that when you have a bunch of trip wires and low ticket offers and like, you know, you sell ’em some for $27 and then $97, and then there’s the 1 97 upsell and do all that stuff. What that does is alienate the people that really need your help, right? Because if your health is failing, your business is failing, your marriage is failing, you know damn well that $27 e-book is not gonna fix your marriage. You know what I mean? ,

(18:45): You’re like, bro, my wife hates me. There’s no way I’m buying this e-book and all of a sudden everything’s gonna be cool regardless of what the marketing copy says. And the sad thing is that usually the marketing copy is saying that’s what’s gonna happen. The, oh, you’re gonna buy this ebook, it’s gonna fix all your problems. And you know that’s not true. But when I come to you and I’m like, look man, we are gonna work together for real to fix this. I’m gonna work with you. I’m gonna hold your hand every step of the way. We’re gonna execute this game plan. I’m gonna be available to you to answer your questions to coach you through this entire process and it’s 10 K, but we’re really gonna get you the result. Now I have your attention, now you understand that this is something real. So what those low ticket offers do is they tend to attract the curious, but not the committed. The committed people see that $27 ebook and they’re like, yeah, whatever, I’m done, I I don’t need it.

John Jantsch (19:26): Yeah. Or worse they buy it and realize you can’t help them . Exactly. Because it’s like, this is garbage.

Russ Ruffino (19:31): When y’all eagle didn’t save my marriage, why would I give this guy 10 grand? You know?

John Jantsch (19:36): So what you’re describing, you know, this client attraction system, I mean, I know that you specialize in help people do group coaching programs, but mm-hmm. , let’s say I’m a, let’s say I’m a management consultant. Do you feel like this approach, you know, can work for somebody that’s doing, you know, high ticket, but sure, maybe one-on-one or not necessarily the coaching, traditional coaching industry.

Russ Ruffino (19:57): So how you deliver the outcome is basically irrelevant. You could do it in an eight week group coaching workshop. You could sell them a block of one-on-one mentoring sessions over the next six months. You could even get ’em into like a small event, like a 3, 4, 5 day retreat, something like that. So the way you choose to deliver the magic is really up to you. The only thing that matters to make it high ticket is it’s gotta be, it’s gotta be set up to give them the outcome. So if you can get them the outcome in a five day retreat, go for it. You know, if you can get them the outcome with one-on-one mentoring, it’s not my favorite, but go for it. It’s terms in terms of, as far as how you sell it, doesn’t matter as long as it’s all about the outcome.

John Jantsch (20:35): Yeah. The one-on-one mentoring better be really high ticket, right?

Russ Ruffino (20:38): Yeah. . Well, you

John Jantsch (20:40): Know what? There’s only so much, there’s only so much one

Russ Ruffino (20:43): . Well, so here’s the weird thing, man, is I’ve done both, right? So I’ve done one-on-one mentoring and I’ve done, I’ve also done like online group coaching and um, online group coaching gets way better results. And no one seems to believe that until they try it. Like, I didn’t believe it until I tried it. I was like, oh, you’re, you know, if you’re doing group programs, you know you’re lazy and you don’t care about your client results. And I was like, look, I’m gonna try this and I’m gonna see how it goes. But what’s really interesting is that what happens is this whole group dynamic is created where now the clients can support each other, cheerlead each other, answer each other’s questions, and you feel like you’re not like this lone soldier. So people get much better results in a group program than they do even with one-on-one coaching, which is amazing.

John Jantsch (21:20): And I’ve actually found that since the pandemic, people are hungrier than ever for that kind of cohort, small cohort stuff.

Russ Ruffino (21:26): Oh yeah. Because most of these big problems we’re talking about are very lonely problems. Like if you’re, if again, if your marriage is falling apart, it’s like you might not even wanna tell your best friend that, you know what I mean? Like you might, the people closest to you, it’s like nobody wants to admit that. Nobody wants to get into that. You know, if you’re 80, 90, a hundred pounds overweight, like it’s, it’s really hard to go to the people you love and have a conversation with that about, you know, but if I join this program and now there’s all these other people I don’t really know, but they’re in the same boat that I am now, I feel like I’m not alone and I feel like I have a community that can support me and help me.

John Jantsch (21:55): It’s kind of the stranger on a plane that, you know, you’ll tell ’em your life story. Right? So ro, tell people where they can, uh, find out more about the work that you’re doing at Client on Demand and just connect with you. I know you have a podcast as well.

Russ Ruffino (22:05): Yeah, sure. So we have a podcast if you wanna check that out, you can go to clients demand.fm. If you wanna check out just our homepage and what it’s like to work with us, you can go to clients on demand.com and then you can also find us on YouTube and Instagram and everywhere else. Probably the best place to go is clients on demand.com. Check out the presentation on that site and that’s gonna give you a really good introduction into what we do and how we can help you do the same thing.

John Jantsch (22:25): Awesome. Well, again, thanks for checking the time to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast and hopefully we’ll run into you soon, one of these days out there on the road.

Russ Ruffino (22:32): Thanks John.

John Jantsch (22:33): Hey, and one final thing before you go. You know how I talk about marketing strategy strategy before Tex? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that, what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the Marketing Strategy Assessment. You can find it @ marketingassessment.co, not.com, dot co. Check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketingassessment.co. I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network.

HubSpot Podcast Network is the audio destination for business professionals who seek the best education and inspiration on how to grow a business.

 

 

 

Growing Your Audience (And Your Revenue) With A Book

Growing Your Audience (And Your Revenue) With A Book written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Marketing Podcast with Matt Briel

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Matt Briel. Matt is an entrepreneur and the Vice President of Marketing & Communications at Lulu.com, as well as a self-diagnosed collaboration junkie. After more than 15 years leading Sales and Marketing teams in the Media & Publishing spaces, he’s developed a unique passion for helping creators become more successful by leveraging books as a catalyst for opportunities and sustainable revenue.

Key Takeaway:

Writing a book can take your credibility, authority, and your business to the next level – Not only does it you an amazing opportunity to share your knowledge, but it’ll also help increase awareness of yourself and what you have to offer. Matt Briel joins me in this episode and shares exactly how books can bring success for growing audiences, brands, reach, revenue, and more.

Questions I ask Matt Briel:

  • [1:29] Could you tell us about the origin story of Lulu and how did it come to be?
  • [2:25] Is self-publishing a more profitable way to publish today?
  • [5:12] Why would someone want to self-publish a book?
  • [7:30] Would you say self-publishing is seen as a differentiator for businesses?
  • [11:42] What does it take to produce a book?
  • [18:49] What do you say to that person that doesn’t think they have time to write a book?
  • [21:59] Where can people find out more about you and publishing a book with Lulu?

Learn More About Matt Briel and Lulu:

Learn More About The Agency Intensive Certification:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Nudge, hosted by Phil Agnew. It’s brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. You can learn the science behind great marketing with bite size 20 minute episodes packed with practical advice from world-class marketers and behavioral scientists, and it’s not always about marketing. Great episode. Recently you learned the surprising truths about and tips for beating, stress and anxiety. Sounds like a great program, doesn’t it? Listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast.

(00:50): This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Matt Briel, commonly described as equal parts, loud music, Disney culture, tattoos, and book nerd. Matt is an entrepreneur and vice president of marketing and communications @

Matt Briel (01:02): lulu.com, as well as a self-diagnosed collaboration junkie. After more than 15 years leading sales and marketing teams in the media and publishing spaces, he’s developed a unique passion for helping creators become more successful by leveraging books as a catalyst for opportunities and sustainable revenues. So, Matt, welcome to the

(01:22): Show. Thanks, John. It’s great to be here.

John Jantsch (01:24): So, so give me lulu.com, or Lulu is a self-publishing company. Give me a little bit of the origin story of Lulu and kind of how you came to it.

Matt Briel (01:33): Yeah, it’s actually a really fun one. We were founded by a gentleman named Bob Young, who was the original co-founder of Red Hat, which is a massive software company. Most of your listeners probably know what it is. Um, he and his partner took Red Hat to an IPO early days, and Bob found himself with a lot of time and a lot of money, and a lot of people wanted to hear his story. And so he wanted to publish a book. That journey through its ups and downs led him to basically create Lulu a place where anybody could publish and not face a lot of the barriers to entry Yeah. That people were facing to get their stories published, whether it be money or, you know, and you’re well aware of the gatekeepers at the publishing houses of traditional publishers. So that’s the quick and dirty of our origin story is that, and Bob Young, by the way, is still the sole owner and founder of the company, and very much and involved in what we do on a day-to-day basis.

John Jantsch (02:25): So I, I published my first book in, I think my first book came out in 2007. Boy, the industry has changed a ton in that period of time. But one of the things that I, well, let me ask you, rather than telling you what you’re gonna say, , you know, you think back in just even the last decade, self-publishing still had a little bit of, oh, you can’t get a real publisher. Right. And now I think it’s definitely through technology, through, you know, a lot of advances in opportunities. You know, I think it’s actually become not only a very valid way to publish, there certainly are people out there that have a large platform that see it as a more profitable way to publish.

Matt Briel (03:05): You’re absolutely right. What you’re referring to is the stigma that came with self-publishing. Right. And I, I think it’s even, you know, in the last five years, you don’t even have to go back a decade, but you’re absolutely right. So when Lulu started in 2002, so about 20 years ago, we just celebrated our 20th anniversary. Yeah. Self-publishing a book definitely got you at the bottom of the list of books that somebody was going to read or even take for free. And in many cases, that was warranted. I mean, let’s be honest here, but in a lot of cases it wasn’t, you know, it just, like we said, the manuscripts that are submitted still to this day, to traditional publishers, about 98 to 99% of them get rejected. So there’s a large buried entry. And that stigma has been present up until very recently, actually. And I think you’re right, you touched on the advent of technology surrounding publishing, as well as all the different things you can do now as a self-published author, as it relates to, you know, distribution channels. Right. And so, yeah, I think it’s having its heyday now, I think it’s finally become a very viable source of publishing and creating and printing books.

John Jantsch (04:09): Yeah, it’s interesting the distribution, because you know, even going back 15 years ago, it’s like the publishers had the wholesalers who had the retailers, and that was it. You didn’t get in that path, you weren’t getting in. And it’s really all opened up now to, obviously Amazon probably forced a lot of it, but it certainly opened up to it now where anybody, especially working with a, an organization like yours that’s established in the industry is, you know, gonna see their book in Barnes and Noble maybe if it warrants it.

Matt Briel (04:35): Yeah, that’s right. And again, for a lot of people, that’s what they were concerned with was distribution. Like, how is my book gonna get out there into the hands of everybody? And it was this, it was this thought process that a book is a very, you know, confined thing. It’s something that I wanna write it, I want it published, and I want it into the hands of people in bookstores around the world. There was really no sort of external or, you know, parallel thinking about what else could I do with this book and how else could I distribute it? So yeah, distribution was top of the list and for the longest time, you’re right, the best distribution methods were still at the hands of the traditional publishers who worked with the wholesalers. Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:12): So, so let’s talk a little bit about why somebody would self-publish a book. You know, I’ve experienced the benefits of it, but you know, I think a lot of people still are in that, like, I’m not really an author, or I don’t have that much to say, or, you know, I don’t think I could sell a lot of books. So let’s go into a little bit of the reasons, especially well for anybody frankly, but certainly for a business owner, why they would have, why they would publish a book, even with all of those sort of what they’re considering roadblocks.

Matt Briel (05:43): Yeah, absolutely. And that’s probably the number one thing we hear right now, or the question is, you know, why and who would do this? Yeah. Right. The answer I think surprises a lot of people when we talk about this. And I think self-publishing is most beneficial non-fiction creators and writers. Yeah. It’s most beneficial for businesses and institutions, educational or otherwise, that are using this for non-fiction utilitarian purposes. You know, if you look at our user base and our data alone, and we’ve got millions and millions of authors that have used us over the last 20 years, and we’ve published roughly, you know, couple hundred thousand books per year. The bulk of them are non-fiction, and they are utilitarian in concept. They’re handbooks, they’re manuals, they’re reference books, you know, they’re, they’re great books that are done through our platform that are all about coding Python or, you know, tax code laws in, in the northwest region of the United States. And so why

John Jantsch (06:40): You, so, so you should read those if you want to like, get to sleep at night, right? , but somebody finds them interesting, right, .

Matt Briel (06:45): Absolutely. I use some of them in the background to stack up bookshelves for myself here in the office. But yeah, I mean, why you would self-publish really blows down to your goals and your motives. And as a business, you know, a lot of your audience is small business owners or solopreneurs or early stage, you know, entrepreneurs. It’s, it’s such a great tool to use a book as a growth opportunity creator. And with self-publishing, especially now, like you alluded to earlier, with all of the tools and technology we have and what we’ve been able to build in our platform, it’s so easy. And so, yeah, why you would do it is because it creates new opportunities for you as a, as an individual, as an entrepreneur, as a business, or a brand, as an organization. And it’s just an easier way to get it done without having to deal with those gatekeepers, many of whom you’ll never get past.

John Jantsch (07:31): Well, and I think also, you know, I always tell people it’s a great differentiator, you know, if somebody is looking at, I don’t know, three marketing firms, for example, the one who’s got this book that tells a good story about, you know, how marketing’s actually how marketing actually works, even if the person doesn’t read it , it’s a differentiator. And that’s not, you know, based on, oh, you’re cheaper than the other guy, right?

Matt Briel (07:53): Absolutely. Yeah. The big sort of push right now, and a lot of what we use when we’re out at conferences or talking to people and even on interviews, is that books are the best business cards you could ever have. And aside from the revenue impact of having a book to sell, so many people we work with that are successful with them right now, they’re not using them for a source of revenue, or at least not a, it’s a passive stream of revenue for them, but they’re using it as an opportunity creator. And like you said, if you’re talking to two or three people who are consultants in the field of, you know, marketing or, you know, quantum physics, it doesn’t matter if one of those people, if she’s holding a book right, and says, listen, you know, I’m an expert in this. Here’s my book, take this, give it a look over and then, you know, call me if you have any questions. A, you’re not gonna throw that in the garbage. No animal throws a book away. Yeah. And B, that’s definitely gonna put you above. The other two are standing there with just a business card in their hand. And so the idea that you took the time to create a book and you have this information and this very sort of succinct package, you’re absolutely right. That’s a huge leg.

John Jantsch (08:55): I’ll tell you the other thing that I, I think a lot of people underestimate when they think about the time and frankly the monetary investment, you know, to get the thing off the ground. What I’ve found is the person with a book, especially a book, let’s face it, that does make some sense as well written , you get to charge a premium too. That’s right. I mean, you’ll make that money back. I can almost guarantee it. I know when I was already speaking professionally, because I’d been writing for a long time and, and I once, as soon as my book came out, and unfortunately it sold pretty well, but as soon as it came out I quadrupled my speaking fees. So , you know, really the time or whatever monetary investments you have, think it actually, that’s how you justify it, isn’t it?

Matt Briel (09:35): Yeah. And that’s a great point you just made too inadvertently, which was, you know, it’s really popular right now. People wanna get on the speaking circuits for whatever, you know, industry or vertical they’re in. Right? And you see it as well as I do, we’ve crossed paths already in the marketing circles. That’s a big thing to, to get a speaking gig at, you know, something like Inbound or one of these places. Yeah. Conferences, excuse me. And from what I’ve seen, and you can probably vouch for this, in most cases, you’re not even gonna get considered if you’re not, if you don’t have author next to your name, right? Yeah. If you’ve not published something, they don’t necessarily care that it was with McGraw Hill or self-published through, you know, Lulu or whoever. But if you’ve not taken the time to publish something on the topic by which you consider yourself an expert, you’re not even making the waiting list for a speaking engagement. And so for those who are trying to break into that scene, this is again, another way to really put yourself at the top of that list and it’s very inexpensive way. But like you said, even if you take the route of, you know, paying for some help to actually create a good book with some editors helping you and maybe a graphic designer on the cover, that’s still a relatively inexpensive investment in what you just said will be, you know, a very large career booster for yourself.

John Jantsch (10:45): Yeah. I’ve had any number of events reach out to me and said, yeah, our c e O picked up your book in the airport and, you know, thought we ought to really have you come speak at our event. I mean, they didn’t really, I’m sure they did some research, but you know, that was when they found me, right? . Yeah. So, so absolutely. Now from our sponsor, look, whether you have an established following or you’re just starting out, books are a great way for entrepreneurs and creators to establish credibility, grow an audience, and generate profit from landing more speaking gigs to ING leads for your business, to building a community of fans around your brand. A book can spark so many new growth opportunities for you. At lulu.com, they have free tools for publishing and e-commerce plugins for printing books directly from your website for turnkey white label fulfillment. Go check ’em out @ publishforgrowth.com to learn how to get started on your first or maybe your next book today.

(11:39): That’s publish for growth.com. So you hinted at this, so let’s go there. What does it take to produce a book? I think a lot of people think, oh, I just, you know, I type out 80,000 words, I give it to somebody, and while I’ve got a book, what is the real process in terms of putting out a quality book?

Matt Briel (11:55): Yeah. Second most asked question, we get . And so that’s the, also, the second thing that really hung people up for the longest time with self-publishing was it is a true do-it-yourself initiative if you want it to be. So, you know, in the days of traditional publishing, and I would imagine with you and many others that I’ve talked to along the way, you have a team, or your publisher has a team. So when you do your part, when you type your 50 to a hundred thousand words, you just hand that over to your agent or your contact at the publishing house, and then their team, they’ll go through it and tear it apart and do whatever they wanna do with it. Well, hopefully they don’t tear yours apart. But you know, when you’re self-publishing, you’re on the hook for all of that, right? And so what it takes to self-publish a book can be very easy and minimal, or you can make it as complicated as you want, but at the end of the day, you’re in control of all of that.

(12:44): And that’s one of the beauties of it. So what you need is content, you know, and depending on what you’re writing and what your goal for that is, it could be as little as, you know, 10,000 words, 8,000 words. The length and size of the book these days doesn’t necessarily matter as much as the quality of the content and what you’re gonna do with that book. So you need a PDF of that content, right? You need a platform. So if you were gonna use ours, you just create an account, you would upload that pdf, our system will scan it over and check for any errors in formatting or size. If it’s all good, you literally, you know, add the cover file, which you can either create on our platform, others have a similar tool, or if you’ve had your cover created by a graphic designer, which, you know, if you’re not good at it, which a lot of people aren’t, you can go to any number of freelancer sites like Fiber or 99 Designs, or your buddy who does graphic design on the side and hit the publish button and you’re good to go.

(13:37): You designate where you want your book to show up, you can designate it to be private access, meaning you only have access to it, to print copies for yourself. And then our greatest feature right now, and our biggest differentiator on what’s making the biggest waves is that you can now connect it to your own website and sell it directly and keep all the properties. So we work with, you know, Shopify and a WordPress plugins and a number of other ways to do that. So it is a lot easier than it ever has been. And depending on how, how concise and how well-crafted you want that book to be, it can go pretty quickly and inexpensively.

John Jantsch (14:13): I would toss in to the person that, you know, really wants something they can be proud of, that you probably should go out and on the private market look for a a, a true editor , as well as maybe a line editor copy editor. Because I just, from my experience, you know, a true editor has made my books better by saying, well just rearrange this here or tell more stories here. But then, you know, the lo the copy editor who you know, ends up chopping out about 2000 words of me just saying superfluous stuff and also making sure that I’m not using passive voice and I said this way and then this the way and the next one worth the investment. Certainly an additional investment. But I think to if you, if this is gonna be, you know, you’re that attorney and , you want people, you know, to read your book and show your professionalism, you know, it’s worth that investment. I think

Matt Briel (15:03): I would never disagree with that at all. Yeah. And again, if you’re gonna spend the money on any one area, that’s it. And we do also, there’s a spot on our website where we list resources, people, freelancers, editors, graphic designers who you can work with, because you’re right. I mean, if this is something that you’re gonna consider, you know, a growth tool and even potentially a legacy for yourself, right, right. Let’s face it, your books are a legacy, you know, you and many others who are putting these books out there, the last thing you want is some simple grammatical errors or some weird tone or voice that could have been easily rectified through, you know, less than a thousand dollars worth of editing work, you know? Yes. Yeah. So would agree with a hundred percent. John.

John Jantsch (15:40): So you mentioned the idea of selling direct, and I will say one of the cha challenges certainly with a traditional publisher is you have no idea who bought your book. And in fact, the publisher has no idea who bought your book. I’ve always felt in this day and age, that’s a giant gap because frankly, if I knew every single person that bought my book and I had a way to contact them, you know, the upsells, the, you know, the communities that you could build around that, the spinoffs that you could build just from having, you know, people who were engaged buyers of, it’s just like anything, I mean customers, but you don’t know who they are. . So, so now you, by selling direct, they are a customer and you know absolutely who they are. And I think that’s a benefit that you can turn your $14 book into, you know, 14, you know, million dollars, you know, worth of other products, isn’t it?

Matt Briel (16:32): You’re right. That’s the real game changer here too, especially for us. I mean, again, we’re one of the only ones that offer that ability right now. And when you look at the climate we’re in and the shift to online e-commerce over the past few years, or five years or so, and even, you know, with the onset of the pandemic and covid and this boon that’s happening in the creator economy and you know, a lot of the people listening to your podcast are solopreneurs and people who are going at it and really trying to make a living off of what they consider their craft or passion or whatever that might be. The ability to sell direct. Yes. Keeping a hundred percent of your profits is a benefit, of course. And for somebody like you, for example, if you’re selling, you know, thousands of books a month, right? Right. Imagine if you were keeping all of that versus you know, what the publisher is keeping. Yeah,

John Jantsch (17:15): No, I’m fine. I’m fine with 15%. It’s all right.

Matt Briel (17:18): , the real thing here is what you alluded to is customer data. And we’ve all been so conditioned over the years to just give that to Amazon or give that to, you know, whoever is the retailer of your product. For those of you listening that have a brick and mortar store, it’s a little bit different. But for the most part, everybody is really doing something online or utilizing a third party retailer and they’re keeping all of that customer data. It’s not your customer. And like you said, imagine if you had that customer data that you could remarket to and turn a $14 book sale into five years of book sales by remarketing to them and building that email list and owning all of that journey. And so that’s the real benefit that people are starting to discover and that’s really where this has been taking off for us and everybody involved in this.

John Jantsch (18:02): And I think that’s also, I mean you, you didn’t mention it necessarily, but building community, I mean, just knowing who those, I mean, even if it just started with a book club, you know, and you know, building relationship with that reader cuz they’ve already heard your voice, right? They’re, you’re in their head and so you know, you’ve got a real leg up in the trust game on doing that. Here’s the, really the last kind of big question and I’m sure you get it all the time. We’re talking about business professionals, they’ve, they maybe they’re founder, they’re running a company and it’s like, I got a day job , you know? Yeah. How am I gonna write all of this? You know, cuz I think they envision going off to the cabin and you know, for six weeks and Sling going, doing this

Matt Briel (18:37): And smoking a

John Jantsch (18:38): Bike. Exactly. So what do you say to that person that says, I don’t have the time to do this or you know, I don’t know when I’m gonna, you know, be able to create or I don’t even know what I would write. I mean, what do you say to that person?

Matt Briel (18:51): The answer is similar to some of the other things we’ve been talking about and it has to do with the onset of technology right now that is making our lives easier in every aspect of creating content and marketing and selling products, whatever it is you happen to be involved in. But the long and short of it is you have a couple of options for a lot of people listening, they already have content, they just don’t realize it. Right? For people listening to your podcasts that are bloggers or they’re podcasters or they have video blogs on YouTube or whatever that might be, there are so many cool ways where you could take existing content and repackage it, you know, chat transcripts from your podcasts. Uh, if you’re a blogger, take your top 10 most viewed blogs or red blogs and those are chapters now for a book or you know, there’s a lot of ways to repackage content that you already have.

(19:34): But if you’re truly starting from scratch and you’re saying, Hey, I’m trying to get this business or concept off the ground, or whatever that might be, it can be challenging. Of course nobody’s just gonna go off to a cabin in the woods and put their cardigan on and grab an old typewriter and crank out 80,000 words on a topic. But you have to chunk it up, you have to first start with an outline, it makes things the easiest and it keeps things in line and succinct and you know, sometimes just doing your outline could take you a month and that’s okay, but if you’re really putting that time and effort into it, the finished product is gonna be great. So get that outline started that serves as your roadmap, right? You would never get in the car and take off on a road trip without either, you know, maps on your phone telling you where to go or a paper map like you and I have probably used at some point in our life.

(20:18): Your outline is the same thing. So if you can get a succinct and out a well done outline done, you know, from there it gets easier. You just chunk it up and you’ve gotta create time for yourself. You literally have to put time on your calendar, even if it’s only 15, 20 minutes a day. Whatever you can get written in that time, you will see how quickly that stuff will start to add up and before you know it, you’ve got enough to send off to an editor you’re working with who’s gonna help you finish that product up. So it’s time management, like everybody listening to your podcast, you and I both we’re all challenged by it, especially these days. You’ve just gotta carve out the time to do it and the benefits in the end will definitely be worth what you’re sacrificing upfront.

John Jantsch (21:00): Yeah, and I think it’s, I think it’s key to get clear on those benefits, you know, what are you gonna gain from doing it? I always find that that, you know, helps people get the leverage over themselves in their time when they know, gosh, I gotta do this cuz the payoff is X. You know, one, one tip I’d throw in there too, I’ve worked with a lot of folks that they just feel like I’m just not a good writer or I’m, you know, I can’t get it down, but they can speak all day long and so , you know, create the audio version you know, of your book and let somebody turn it into the written word.

Matt Briel (21:28): Um, well that’s where technology comes in, right? There’s so many tools out there right now that you could literally just speak into your book and it will transcribe it for you. There are lots of other tools that will help you, you know, with the actual craft of writing. There are tools that will literally prompt you, Hey, it’s time to write your 500 words, you know what I mean? And guide you through it, so Yep, yep, yep. Technology’s our friend these days and it’s so inexpensive to free to use a lot of it.

John Jantsch (21:51): Yeah. So Matt, I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. You wanna tell people where they can find out more about publishing a book with Lulu?

Matt Briel (22:00): Absolutely. Thank you John. This has been good. You can find us@lulu.com. Very easy four letters. We’ve spent a lot of money competing with the Leggings company for URL traffic . You can also find us@publishforgrowth.com, which is a little more suited towards your audience and it helps you really understand, like we talked about those benefits of why you would publish something for your business. Um, so yeah.

John Jantsch (22:20): Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into each other one of these days out there on the road.

Matt Briel (22:26): We will, and thanks again, John, I appreciate it.

John Jantsch (22:28): Hey, and one final thing before you go. You know how I talk about marketing strategy, strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that, what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the Marketing Strategy Assessment. You can find it @ marketingassessment.co. dot co. Check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketingassessment.co. I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network and Lulu.

HubSpot Podcast Network is the audio destination for business professionals who seek the best education and inspiration on how to grow a business.

 

 

Whether you have an established following or you’re just starting out, books are a great way for entrepreneurs and creators to establish credibility, grow an audience, and generate profit. From landing more speaking gigs to generating leads for your business to building a community of fans around your brand, a book can spark so many new growth opportunities for you! At Lulu, we have free tools for publishing, and e-commerce plug-ins for printing books directly from your website for turn-key, white-label fulfillment. Meet us over at publishforgrowth.com to learn how to get started on your first (or next!) book today.

 

Weekend Favs January 21

Weekend Favs January 21 written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

My weekend blog post routine includes posting links to a handful of tools or great content I ran across during the week.

I don’t go into depth about the finds, but I encourage you to check them out if they sound interesting. The photo in the post is a favorite for the week from an online source or one I took on the road.

  • HelloScribe – Effortlessly generate big ideas with HelloScribe’s AI-powered writing and brainstorming tools for PR and Marketing professionals. Their cutting-edge writing and brainstorming tools simplify the creative process, allowing you to generate big ideas with ease and efficiency.
  • Originality.ai  – Ensure the originality of your content with Originality.AI, a plagiarism checker and AI detector for serious publishers. Protect your reputation and save time with their advanced technology.
  • Boei – Is a new-age chatbot platform that automates customer support and lets you easy connect with your leads wherever they like to communicate best. It also provides features for training, analyzing and integrating the chatbot with other tools. 

These are my weekend favs; I would love to hear about some of yours – Tweet me @ducttape

If you want to check out more Weekend Favs you can find them here.

Uncovering The Hidden Power Of Your Unfair Advantage

Uncovering The Hidden Power Of Your Unfair Advantage written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Marketing Podcast with Ash Ali and Hasan Kubba

Ash Ali & Hasan Kubba, guests on the Duct Tape Marketing PodcastIn this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Ash Ali and Hasan Kubba. They both are award-winning authors and entrepreneurs. Despite not going to university, Ash became a serial tech founder and the first marketing director of a unicorn startup – Just Eat). Hasan built a successful startup from his bedroom with nothing more than an online course and a yearning to escape the ‘rat race’. They are now international bestselling authors, coaches, and keynote speakers. Their latest book is – The Unfair Advantage: How You Already Have What It Takes to Succeed.

Key Takeaway:

Behind every story of success is an unfair advantage. Your unfair advantage is the element that gives you an edge over your competition. In this episode, I talk with Ash Ali and Hasan Kubba about how to identify your own unfair advantages and apply them to any project in your life. We talk about how to look at yourself and find the ingredients you didn’t realize you already had, to succeed in the cut-throat world of business.

Questions I ask Ash Ali and Hasan Kubba:

  • [1:44] The book starts out with the premise — life is fundamentally unfair.  Could you break that idea down?
  • [3:37] What you would call an unfair advantage that people tend to recognize?
  • [6:46] Would you characterize this book as a business book or a self-help book?
  • [9:43] What are some of the places that are less obvious unfair advantages that people don’t even realize they have?
  • [11:41] Some people are purely lucky, but I would say a lot of entrepreneurs have come to the realization that they make their own luck, and that’s something that is earned as opposed to something that’s an unfair advantage. How would you respond to that notion?
  • [13:52] What are your unfair advantages?
  • [19:13] What do you say to that person that feels that they don’t have an unfair advantage?
  • [22:57] Where can people find out more of the work that you’re doing and grab a copy of the book?

More About Ash Ali and Hasan Kubba:

Take The Marketing Assessment:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Nudge, hosted by Phil Agnew. It’s brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. You can learn the science behind great marketing with bite size 20 minute episodes, packed with practical advice from world-class marketers and behavioral scientists. And it’s not always about marketing. Great episode. Recently you learned the surprising truths about and tips for beating, stress and anxiety. Sounds like a great program, doesn’t it? Listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

(00:48): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Ash Ali. And Hassan Kuba gonna have two guests today, their award-winning authors and entrepreneurs. And despite not going to University, Ash became a serial tech founder and the first marketing director of the Unicorn Startup Just Eat Hassan built a successful startup from his bedroom with nothing more than an online course and a yearning to escape the rat race. They’re now international best-selling authors, coaches and keynote speakers. And we’re gonna talk about their latest book, the Unfair Advantage, how You Already Have What It Takes to Succeed. So Ash and Hassan, welcome.

Hasan Kuba (01:32): Hello. Thank you. Thanks for having us.

John Jantsch (01:34): Hi. Awesome. So the book starts out with this premise, and we could probably do the whole show without me asking another question, but here it is. Life is fundamentally unfair. Who wants to take that dollop of hope?

Hasan Kuba (01:47): I’ll take it. I’ll take it going and so life is unfair. Yeah. That is the under underlying principle behind our book is that life is not fair. And sometimes when you get into self-development, like I did, and still I still enjoy a bit of self-development. Mo you know, you learned that you know, what you got in life is what you deserved. You know, you built the life that you’re living now. You designed it. Your decisions led to the moment you are in now and all these kinds of quotes and beliefs and mental models to make you take responsibility for your life, which is a very useful tool, but it’s limited because it’s not actually that accurate. So one of the ways to look at, well we talk about this in the book, is that it’s, it’s all about mental models. So there’s one extreme, which is to think that all success is based on hard work and, you know, merits.

(02:35): And the other extreme is to think it’s all luck and unearned. Mm-hmm. And the reality is squarely in the middle. Yeah. Right. There’s a lot of serendipity in life. There’s a lot of luck of births and genetic lotteries and there’s a lot of things that just happen because you were in the right place at the right time. Yeah. But at the same time, you can, you know, stack the deck in your favor. You can make the right decisions, you can be consistent in how you think, think and how you behave and the decisions you make to lead towards success. So it’s a mixture of both. Life is unfair and ultimately, you know, we’re so lucky and we should all be so grateful for everything that we have going for us. And at the same time, uh, we can also exert our own agency on the world. We can also take bear some responsibility. We can also take control of our lives to an extent.

John Jantsch (03:19): Yeah. Cuz it, it’s interesting. I mean, we all know people have had everything handed to them, all the funding, all the backing, all the mentors, all the, you know, whatever. And they’ve still found a way to piss it away, haven’t they? . So it really is kind of that combination.

Hasan Kuba (03:33): Exactly.

John Jantsch (03:34): So, so let’s maybe start out by defining, um, what an unfair maybe some examples of what you would call an unfair advantage that people tend to recognize.

Ash Ali (03:46): Yeah. So I mean, an unfair advantage is something that’s unique to you based on your circumstances and also based on your background and who you are as an individual. There’s so many books out there that talk about strengths, but what we do is talk about your strength, but also about yourself as an individual, as a unique person. So we talk about, you know, life is unfair and it’s not a level playing field, but sometimes when life is unfair and it’s not a level playing field, some people can grow up with a victim mindset and a victim type of thinking say, I didn’t have this, I didn’t have that. But actually what we say in the book is actually, how do you turn that around? How do you make that stuff that you, you felt was unfair growing up in poverty or growing up in an area that wasn’t great?

(04:26): How can you turn that around and make it part of your authentic story and use it to an advantage? So an example for me would be, I grew up with little money. And when I start companies now, and I know a lot of listeners are listening here who are run small businesses, when you don’t have a huge amount of money for marketing budgets, for example, I’m the perfect person to come in and work with you because I know how to be resourceful cause I had no money. Right? So my mindset is always based around being resourceful. That’s just an example of something that you could use, uh,

John Jantsch (04:53): Strip. But again, I, you know, to the flip side of that, I guess we all know people who had everything and should have made it. You know, there, we, we all probably know at least somebody, or at least you’ve read their story of somebody that sh never should have . You know, like you said, they didn’t have the education, they didn’t have the backing, they didn’t have the money. Yeah. They didn’t really have seemingly, you know, didn’t seem that smart, you know mm-hmm. , but, you know, they’ve, they’ve made themselves successful the way we defined that. So, you know, what are, you know, I guess to Hassan’s original point, it, it’s kind of somewhere in the middle, isn’t it?

Ash Ali (05:28): It is somewhere in the middle. It, it’s interesting because, you know, like I’ve got a daughter now who’s growing up in privilege and I look at her and I look at my life and think, okay, you know, does she have the fire in the belly? And what can we do to help her have the same mentality of working hard and trying to achieve things in life? And one of the things I found was that interestingly is that constraint does kind of foster creativity. And if you just live, give everything to your children, for example, straight away, then they’re not gonna, um, uh, feel grateful for it straight away. And unless they’ve worked for it. So con, sometimes having constraints, uh, does make you more resourceful and more creative. And that’s just an example of something we’re living in an abundant world now where everything is available quickly. You can audio your takeaway quickly, you can audio your cab quickly and you know, they’re growing up in a different environment compared to us where we had to wait for something, but we had to have some patience around something. So it’s understanding what constraint is and how to manage that, I suppose.

John Jantsch (06:24): Yeah. I I of course, it’s so cliche now, but you know, I like to tell even 30 year olds, you know, about uh, dial up, um, internet and, uh, . Yeah. Things of that nature. Can you, can you imagine that now, you know, it might take 10 minutes and we had to take turns, who could use it, right. Only one person could be on at a time and pretty crazy. So I think what would you classify or would you characterize this book as a business book or a self-help book?

Hasan Kuba (06:50): Yeah, good question. It really is in the middle because what we’ve done with our book is we’ve, so the origin of the book, let’s get into the origin. We did this book because we were getting pitched by loads of startup for funding and it was just like Shark Tank essentially. They’d come in and, and pitch us and we thought, what is the difference that makes a difference here? You know, when we confer between ourselves, we’re like, what is it with some people that we’re like, you know, even if we didn’t believe in them, they’re not gonna close out their funding ground. Nobody else is gonna believe in them and they’re gonna really struggle here. And what is that difference? And we start thinking about this and really diving into it and we decided to write this down, this idea of the unfair advantage. It’s essentially a sustainable competitive advantage for a big business.

(07:32): It’s kind of the type of thing Warren Buffet talks about in value investing. You want a business that has the economic modes, the defensibility that it’s gonna sustain. And it’s the same thing for individuals because at that early stage of a business, when you don’t yet have a product, even sometimes when you don’t yet have, um, customers, you don’t yet have traction in sales, how are you gonna judge it? Well, you’re gonna judge it by the team, by the co-founders. And when you’re judging it by the co-founders, that’s when you have to try and decide, okay, what have they got going for themselves? What do they have that’s gonna allow them to push through? Do they have a track record? Do they have something that gives you the idea that they’ll be able to get into this? Do they have the unfair advantages? Yeah. And essentially that was the idea behind the book. And that’s what made us think about like how we can help people to gain that kind of self-awareness. Yeah. To know what kind of business to go for, to know what kind of strategy to go for. Should you raise funding? Should you bootstrap? Who should you partner with? These are the kind of decisions we wanted to help people with at that early stage. So we’re just bringing it back to the individual. So that’s why it’s in between a business book and a self-development, cuz it’s about the early stages of a startup.

John Jantsch (08:40): Yeah. Are you an agency owner, consultant or coach that works with business owners? Then I want to talk to you about adding a new revenue stream to your business that will completely change how you work with clients. For the first time ever, you can license and use the Duct Tape Marketing system and methodology in your business through an upcoming three day virtual workshop. Give us three days and you’ll walk away with a complete system that changes how you think about your agency’s growth. The Duct Tape Marketing System is a turnkey set of processes for installing a marketing system that starts with strategy and moves to long-term retainer implementation engagements. We’ve developed a system by successfully working with thousands of businesses. Now you can bring it to your agency and benefit from all the tools, templates, systems and processes we’ve developed to find out when our next workshop is being held, visit dtm.world/workshop.

(09:37): That’s DTM world slash workshops. So I think there are some unfair advantages that, that are pretty obvious that people could identify. But if I’m out there listening, you know, what are some of the, what are just some of the places that you go looking, I know you have a framework you call the Miles framework. So we can kind of go, you know, letter by letter for the acronym. Uh, but, but what are some of the places maybe that are less obvious that you’ve said, Hey, you know, these are unfair advantages that people don’t even realize they have?

Ash Ali (10:06): Yeah. So the Miles framework is, uh, it stands for money, intelligence, location, and luck education and expertise and status. And it sits on top of mindset. And we talked earlier about why it’s important for people to understand the unfair advantage in the context of business. Because business is all about people. And most investors invest in small startups and early stage startups because of the people, not because of the idea itself. It’s the founders themselves. And so if you can identify your unfair advantages and then amplify those in your pitch, in your message to hiring people to your cust or getting customers, it will help you get your early traction, which is what starts a business. So coming back to the Miles framework, it’s about understanding within each one of those miles frameworks in the each one of those acri, the letters, what you have that’s going for you.

(10:56): Right? And one of the big ones is insight. For example, when you’re starting a company, right? If you have insight into something that nobody else has and you are starting a business around, that’s a very powerful unfair advantage. And there’s so many case studies in our book around that, um, about specific insights around that. Another one is being in the right place at the right time, right the location. And look, you know, if can you find the right co-founder? Can you find the right, um, uh, customers who are close to you potentially who can, who can become customers straightaway? Status is another one. You know, your network. And here, you know, when you are starting a business, if you know how to raise money quickly and you have a network, that’s an unfair advantage. And if you need to go out to the market to raise money from ground zero and have nobody, no network, it’s much harder to do. Much harder to do. Right? And we know how that’s how investment generally works. So there’s lots of little examples in different places for different types of projects or businesses. It depends where you wanna apply the framework itself, whether it’s a project, whether it’s your career, whether it’s, uh, a business itself.

John Jantsch (11:54): Yeah. Let me, I wanna come back to insight in a minute and have you share some examples, uh, to, to help clarify that one. But let’s talk about luck. Some people, some, some people are purely lucky. I mean, they run into luck, right place, right time, like you said. But I would say a lot of entrepreneurs have come to the realization that they make their own luck. And that, that that’s almost something that’s earned as opposed to something that’s an unfair advantage. How would you respond to that notion?

Hasan Kuba (12:23): I I totally believe in making your own luck as well. So we talk about luck and we talk about the fact that it’s overlooked and luck exists. Hey, luck does exist, talent does exist. You know, that all these books has become trendy to say there’s no such thing as talent. Just work super hard and get the 10,000 hours in and, and that will be, that’s enough. These things exist. Tiger Woods was like, could swing a, could swing, a golf could swing a club before he could walk . Like, like these are the kinds of things that that is like pure talent. Oprah Winfrey was like giving speeches to whole congregations at church when she was three years old making. So these things exist, but making your luck also definitely exists. Yeah. We talk in the book about how you can actually increase your luck. There have been psychologists who’ve studied the phenomenon of people who think of themselves as lucky versus people who don’t.

(13:10): And how the fact that they think of themselves as lucky just makes them more proactive, makes them more observant to opportunities that come up. And it’s been literally proven in studies. So it’s quite interesting that you can make your own luck. We say put yourself out there more. Yeah. Increase your surface area to luck and maybe more lucky things will happen. So it’s essentially like rolling the dice, just keep rolling it. No one’s counting how many you’re throwing the dice, how many times you’re throwing the dice. If you keep rolling, you’re more likely to roll the double six.

John Jantsch (13:37): Yeah, I actually, I started my blog in 2003 that I talk about being in the right place at the right time. That was luck to spot that technology. But also it, you know, it led to my first book four years later, but that point I had also written a thousand blog posts. So , you know, I always talk about really that was a lucky decision on my part to go that route. But then I, I do think, you know, you, you have to, you, you can also then turn that luck into something that is very fruitful.

Ash Ali (14:04): Yeah,

Hasan Kuba (14:04): Absolutely.

John Jantsch (14:06): So what’s your unfair advantages? Yeah, let, I’ll let you both answer that one. Go on. For example, as you mentioned, you didn’t go to college, so we’re,

Ash Ali (14:17): Okay,

John Jantsch (14:17): I’ll stop the college degree from Oxford off the table, right?

Ash Ali (14:21): . Yeah, that is, that can be an unfair advantage if you know how to use it. Some people don’t know how to use that as well. You know, we see people coming to us, Andre like, oh yeah, I went to caught Oxford in Cambridge or wherever. And it, it’s just, I’ll say it’s normal for them, but actually that could be an unfair advantage if you know how to use it properly. Uh, an unfair advantage, you know, there’s several different things with strength. There can be double-edged swords as we call them, right? So having something and not having something, and we talked about constraint earlier on, I’ll go through it from my perspective, which is kind of like the double-edged sword version of it. And it has someone go through it from his perspective. So from my perspective, I had no money growing up. So now when I’m building startups, I’m really shrewd and very lean and I can build things very quickly and I’m very resourceful.

(15:01): And, and actually what it does, has done to me is made me more creative. So one of my high skills is creativity, um, intelligence, um, and insight. I have lots of insights with businesses cause I’m doing things all the time. I’m always taking action. So I’m seeing opportunities and getting insights and different things and intelligence. There’s different types of intelligence. You know, a lot of people said to me, Ash, you’re really cool. Uh, you’re the glue amongst your friends. So I’m good at bringing people together and doing things together, which is cool. And I like to be, I don’t like to be the smartest person in the room, you know, I’d rather not be the most intelligent person in the room, but I can learn from other people quickly. So as well as that’s the, the eyesight location and luck. You know, I was born in Birmingham, which is like the second biggest city in the uk, an automotive retail industry kind of community.

(15:41): And the tech industry was booming in London. So I moved to London at the age of 19. If I didn’t move, I wouldn’t have had the same opportunities, wouldn’t have been able to join companies like just eat and do the I P O and look the IPO o you know, how many companies IPO O far and for few between it once again. And there’s a luck factor behind that and the right timing of that. And then seeing how that would work out. Education, I didn’t work university so I didn’t feel entitled, you know, so that, that’s what made, that’s why I kind of hit everything and anything. And I built my expertise up in Dear Tomar. So I was, and, and the time when everyone wanted to know how to do SEO and online marketing, I was there. And then status, you know, like, you know, and your Rolodex of contacts, you know, like I didn’t know many people, but now I know a lots of people. So if I need to do anything now, for example, I can open my black book of contacts, LinkedIn network connections and make things happen because of my status of having connections that are built up over time. Yeah. So that’s become an unfair advantage.

John Jantsch (16:31): What’s interesting, as you said, you know, the degree from a prestigious school used to really mean a lot. It feels like in the, particularly in the entrepreneurial space, it’s more about what were you doing for your summer job, , you know, than what degree you got or your side hustle or whatever seems to actually hold more weight than, than, you know, cost. And I think a lot of it’s because people realize college is great for making connections. What they teach in a lot of, like a marketing course in college will have very little application to what it’s like to market in the real world. And so that, you know, that education, the actual learning classroom education is probably not that valuable.

Ash Ali (17:09): Yeah, I, I mean if you want to learn, so,

John Jantsch (17:11): So Hassan, how

Ash Ali (17:13): Then the fastest way to learn is reading blogs like yours, John. And if you wanna learn about marketing, you can learn a lot more from reading blogs and marketing books can get old very quickly, right? What happened, you know, some time ago. Yeah, yeah. Timing wise might not work now. So it’s keeping fresh and uh, up to date with knowledge. I think that’s really important. And we talk about this in the book about this, there’s three aspects of university, but I’ll let Hassan talk about the Miles’s favorite from his side and what, what his advantages are.

Hasan Kuba (17:39): Yep. Yeah. So, so for me, look, so it is, it’s easier to simplify to what is your unfair advantage, but the reality is we’ll have a set of unfair advantages and a unique set of them. And that’s why Ash goes through so many, well, you know, for Ash, I would definitely say his creativity is, is just one of the top things about him. And the fact that he just gives things a go, he just goes for it. So for me, I would say that it’s my ability to learn really fast. So I think I have that kind of the intelligence where I pick things up fast and then I’m able to communicate them. So one thing that really helped me to get my initial clients and start to develop and get referrals is the ability to build rapport and build trust very quickly. So I think that’s partly just from my ability to absorb information and knowledge in the space that’s so new.

(18:25): And like something I was, one of the main things I was doing was seo. I was doing branding and websites stuff, but SEO and getting people to the top of Googles was huge. And so the fact that I was able to explain it to local businesses, build connections with them, build trust, I think that massively helped me. So that was huge for me. And then you can go further back and just say, listen, I was born in Baghdad, Iraq, and I came to the UK in London when I was three years old with my family to escape the war and all of that. So I’m, my unfair advantage is we moved to, to the UK when I was a baby and I grew up here in London. If you imagine if I’d come when I was 20 years old, I’d have the thickest accent and I’d have so much difficulty in terms of, it’s just how I come across the status side of it in terms of building rapport, building trust. So this is so lucky. So you can kind of go into the genetic lottery of it all. You can go into where you grew up and what kind of schools you went to. You can go into your ability to skill, skill stack and build your skills and expertise and learn things quickly. So I think that learning side is kind of the massive piece for me.

John Jantsch (19:27): So, so I suspect is you’ve both gone out there and maybe given talks on this or or web done webinars on this, that, that, you know, ultimately somebody comes to you and says, look, this is great, but I don’t have any unfair advantages, you know, what do you say to that person that that feels, especially since mindset really sits on top of this, what do you say to that person that, that has that mindset?

Hasan Kuba (19:52): So I would say that essentially this idea and ashes touched on it, this idea of double-edged swords, what you think is a disadvantage, you can turn into an advantage. And I’ll give you an easy one. So we have a few examples in the book of people who had a kind of a classic disadvantage. So a classic disadvantage is a woman entrepreneur, right? So a woman founder, the example of Sarah Blakely, founder of Spanx. Mm-hmm. . Now if you think about her, what was her unfair advantage? Okay, well it was tough. She had no idea about how to raise funding. Nobody would believe in her. She had no connections in that space, et cetera. But what did she have? She had an amazing insight into a problem based on her status as a woman, which is that this idea of like shape wear and, and spanks what turned out to be spanks, she would cut off the feet off tights.

(20:40): Like man wouldn’t have come up with that. wouldn’t have had that insight. The same with Tristan Walker, who’s another example in the book. He’s a, he grew up in the projects in, I think it was the Bronx maybe, or if I’m remembering correctly, Queens actually the queens in New York. And really poor, his dad was murdered when he was young. But hey, he was smart. He got scholarships, he got into good schools. He spent a long time thinking about what his big idea is. In the end, his insight was that black men need a different shaving system than other people do because they have more ingrown hairs. And so he developed this single blade shaving system. He used different rappers who also from his location, so the rapper Nas grew up also in Queens, and then he promoted his brand and then eventually he was acquired by Proctor and Gamble for 30 million.

(21:27): So it’s like what seems like a disadvantage you can use to your advantage if you grew up poor. Then you have an insight into how poor people live, what, what needs they have, what mass market products you might be able to create, let’s say. Or if you grew up as whatever, like you grew up from another country, or you’re learning languages or your, there’s all these different aspects to everything. So it’s all about your mindset. If you have a growth mindset, and we call, we talk about in the book the growth, uh, the reality growth mindset, because we wanna root it in some real reality, then you can grow and you can turn what seems like a disadvantage into an advantage. And listen, if you’re listening to this podcast, if you’re able to read this book, you probably have a lot to be grateful for. So you just need to kind of do a sort of an audit. And gratitude is one of the underlying themes of our book.

John Jantsch (22:13): Yeah. And it’s interesting too because as we grow up a lot of the things that drive our parents or teachers crazy, you know, ultimately come out as an advantage, you know, we were told they were a negative. For example, I, you know, I, my parents used to always joke about how curious I was and always getting into things because I had an teacher, same thing. You know, I was told for a long time that that was a problem that has served me extremely well in my professional life. And I think that’s, uh, sometimes we just have to overcome, you know, the, what, what society has told us is a negative, don’t we?

Ash Ali (22:43): Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. When people focus on your weaknesses more than your strengths, that’s when you start to misunderstand really what your unfair advantage is. Because we’ve all got strengths. And what we, the idea of the premise for the book is to double down on your strengths rather than focus too much on your weaknesses and then plug those gaps where you can appropriately and understand that we work in teams and people. It’s about businesses, about people. So it’s not just about you as an individual.

John Jantsch (23:09): Yeah. So, so Ash, uh, Hassan, where, tell people where they can find more of you, more of the work you’re doing, and obviously a grab a copy of the unfair advantage.

Hasan Kuba (23:19): Yeah. We’re all, all, all over social media. So I’m at Startup Hassan. Uh, Hassan is spelled with one s and Ash is, is it Ash Ali, uk Ash, for most of your socials you can find us and our website is the unfair academy.com.

John Jantsch (23:33): Awesome. And the book is, will be available in, I, I don’t believe there’s an audio version. Is there? There

Hasan Kuba (23:39): There

John Jantsch (23:39): Is, yeah, there is. Okay. So an audio and then, uh, in e ebook format as well as, uh, hard cover and available. Mm-hmm. depend upon when you’re listening to this available everywhere that you buy books.

Hasan Kuba (23:50): Yeah, it’s available now cuz it’s at the time of recording. It’ll be released tomorrow. So it’ll be available by time comes,

John Jantsch (23:56): And I should have mentioned this, but the book has been awarded. I don’t have it written here. Tell me the best business book in the UK in 2021 or something. You can do it better than I just did. Tell me, tell me what the award was.

Hasan Kuba (24:08): . So, so we were surprised and happy to learn that we’d won our category of the startup category of the business book awards. Yeah. And then it was like 12 different categories and then it turned out we’d won the whole thing as well over all the categories. So we’d won the business book of the year 2021. It was actually, it’s based in the uk but it’s an international award as well. The only country that the book hasn’t come out yet until now is in the US and Canada in North America. So yeah, it’s done really well. It’s really popular on Good Reads, it’s on YouTube, it a lot viral videos on YouTube’s took, summarizing it. So if you want to check it out a bit further, you can see some summaries on YouTube, you can read all the reviews. It’s, it’s doing, it’s thankfully spreading by word of mouth cause people are loving it.

John Jantsch (24:53): Yeah. Awesome. Well thanks so much for stopping by the the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast and hopefully we’ll run into you both, somewhere out there on the road.

Hasan Kuba (25:00): Thank you John. Thank you John. And big fans of Duct Tape Marketing, by the way, .

John Jantsch (25:03): Appreciate that. Thanks so much. Hey, and one final thing before you go. You know how I talk about marketing strategy, strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that, what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the Marketing Strategy Assessment. You can find it @ marketingassessment.co. Co check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketingassessment.co. I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network.

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What Employer Branding Is And How To Build It For Your Business

What Employer Branding Is And How To Build It For Your Business written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Marketing Podcast with James Ellis

James Ellis, a guest on the Duct Tape Marketing podcastIn this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview James Ellis. James. James is the principal of Employer Brand Labs in Chicago and is a born employer branding nerd whose mission is to create a million employer brand thinkers. He is an author, keynote speaker, practitioner, and podcaster with a wealth of experience across multiple industries for almost a decade.

Key Takeaway:

No matter the size of your company, you can use an employer brand to your advantage. With it, not only could you be seen as a desirable place for great talent but also gain serious business outcomes – like reducing recruitment costs and shortening search times! In this episode, James Ellis shares his insights on what exactly an employer brand means and how it’s possible to make the most out of yours.

Questions I ask James Ellis:

  • [1:20] What is employer branding and why does it matter?
  • [2:29] Would you go as far as to say a primary marketing message talking about what a great team you have and how great people like to work there, is really not a bad attraction message for customers either is it?
  • [4:46] How does somebody need to start thinking about creating and communicating a positive employer brand?
  • [7:38] Culture and employer branding are the same in a lot of ways – would you say one is just the communication of it in an outward way?
  • [11:46] How do you measure employer branding and what is the ROI?
  • [13:39] Should employer branding be in the marketing department? And how are companies wrestling with marrying marketing, recruiting, and overall branding?
  • [15:50] There are plenty of surveys out there that show that people will take far less money to work in a place that focuses on creating a great ROI – would you ever use that type of argument to get the ROI and practical nature of this?
  • [18:50] I tell people all of the time you have to have a narrow focus on who’s an ideal client, and that means you have to tell some people they’re not an ideal client. Would you suggest to some degree that as a company the same idea applies?
  • [21:06] What has virtual remote work from home done to this dynamic?
  • [23:19] Where can more people connect with you and find out more about your work?

More About James Ellis:

Learn More About The Agency Intensive Certification:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Nudge, hosted by Phil Agnew. It’s brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. You can learn the science behind great marketing with bite size 20 minute episodes, packed with practical advice from world-class marketers and behavioral scientists. And it’s not always about marketing. Great episode. Recently you learned the surprising truths about and tips for beating, stress and anxiety. Sounds like a great program, doesn’t it? Listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is James Ellis. He’s a principal of Employer Brand Labs in Chicago, is a born employer branding nerd whose mission is to create a million employer brand thinkers. He’s an author of keynote speaker, practitioner, and podcaster with a wealth of experience across multiple industries for almost a decade. We’re gonna talk about, you guessed it, employee branding, employer branding. James, welcome to the show.

James Ellis (01:18): Thanks so much for having me, John. I’m thrilled to be here. So

John Jantsch (01:21): This is one of those topics that we probably shouldn’t have to, but we better start with what is in fact employer branding, and then we can go into why it matters.

James Ellis (01:29): No, I honestly, the employer brand has been long run long enough, but it’s still vaguely understood that I watched lots of people try and sell it. And I’m like, until you define it, that’s why I feel like you’re just grabbing me by the ankles and trying to shake the change outta my pocket. Classic if such a thing could be said, the classic definition employer brand is it is the individual perception, meaning it’s in your head. It’s in my head. But they’re different of what is it like to work at Company X based on touchpoints and experiences, some of which happened before the recruiting and job search process. Some of happens during and some happens after. So it is that individual perceptions. So what I think it’s like to work at Nike and what you think it’s like to work at Nike are, can be different, but they can both be. Right. And so influencing those perceptions is the job of employer brand

John Jantsch (02:15): In, let’s just go right into marketing, cuz that’s all I know. the, you know, when you think about it, uh, people wrestle to differentiate themselves with a marketing message, right? And quite often it’s about our thing does this, or, you know, here are the benefits. But would you go as far as saying that as a primary marketing message, talking about what a great team you have, what great people , how great people like to work. There is really not a bad attraction message for customers either, is it?

James Ellis (02:44): I don’t know. So if I go to a, if I pick a flight, they’re all Boeing through air buses. They’re all working the same routes. They’re all working. I mean, they’re all flying outta O’Hare. So what’s the difference? Well, gosh, the only difference is the people working there. So the difference between a delta and a, a frontier and a united is the almost exclusively a function of the people working there. So if you choose a certain kind of person they embody, they are owning that sense of what it’s like to work here. And that creates the experience of what it’s like to be a customer on that side. Now, airlines are an obvious example, but it’s true. The, any company you work at or any company you’re a consumer at, it’s good to know who works there. It’s good to know that they’re friendly faces, that they’re happy, that they’re, you think they do better work, you think they’re delivering a better product, right?

(03:29): Right. There is an inter intersection for the longest time employer brand has lived over in this, what I will lovingly refer to as the recruiting and talent acquisition ghetto. It’s the way of saying, Hey, let’s write a better job posting, or, Hey, let’s make some Glassdoor scores better. What employer brand is, when you really get down to it, it’s the human face of the marketing side. Marketing’s gonna talk about products, it’s gonna talk about features, it’s gonna talk about position, you know, your classic five Ps, four Ps, however you learned it, right? But nobody talks about the people. That’s the sixth p. And if employer brand can kind of own and drive that message and say, look, yes, it’s a great product. Yes, it’s gonna solve your problems and aren’t these wonderful people who make it, it just further reinforces why someone should

John Jantsch (04:09): Buy it. I tell people it’s, it’s how people actually, it’s how customers and prospects are experiencing your brand or company. Yeah. Because that’s, it’s, you know, the person answers the phone, greets ’em at the door, you know, sells ’em something. I mean, that’s their perception of the company.

James Ellis (04:24): Yeah. Target thinks that what it sells is products at a low price. What it really sells is a decent experience of that where I don’t feel bad about myself because those people seem like they’re happy wearing those red shirts and they’re doing their thing. Like, okay, great. I feel better about it than I would and say another company where it just feels like everybody’s, oh, this is the drudgery job.

John Jantsch (04:42): Yeah. All right. So now we’ve brought complete clarity to what it is. So let’s talk about how somebody, like what are the components of, what are the mechanics? Like, how does somebody need to start thinking about creating, but then also communicating in a positive employer brand?

James Ellis (04:58): Yeah. Employer brand has two sides of the same coin. It is that definition, that distillation of what is this brand? What is the message we’re going to market with? But it’s also the ongoing seemingly perpetual means of activating and localizing that brand. So to build a brand, my model is there are four kind of legs of the stool. There is what is the stand or the actual experience of a employee working there, right? Mm-hmm. not what I want to be true, but what do they say, right? Yeah. Two is what is the leadership saying and where is the company going? You know? Right. They have a sense that leadership’s job is something future facing. So where is the company going? Three, what is an employee want in a job? Right? Some people want stability, some people want status. Some people want big old sacks of cash.

(05:42): Everybody’s motivated by different things. So what does your audience actually care about? And then what is the relative competitive set, right? Yeah. If you’re talking, if you’re trying to hire a product manager and a product manager can work almost anywhere, well, gosh, they have a different kind of, you know, set of competitors than say, a nurse who’s only gonna work in a hospital, a clinic, or a doctor’s office. So understanding those four things brings your employer brand into pretty clear clarity, right? There’s a little creative work that happens to kind of distill it and kind of put a bow on it to make it like, oh wait, that’s really tight. But those are the four ideas that you have to wrestle with.

John Jantsch (06:16): Well, you make a great point too about the competitiveness of the industry too. I mean, a lot of times people will think, oh, our industry is so competitive, we gotta have that extra edge, right? But where I like to go is, okay, the remodeling industry or the tree service industry, right? This is a huge edge , right? Mm-hmm. To stand out, because anybody who comes into always like to pick on home services, anybody who’s coming into my home, the exper, I kind of figured they got wrenches, they got trucks, they can do the work, but the experience is the huge factor for

James Ellis (06:48): Me. Yeah, yeah. The plumber you hire, they all have the same wrenches, they all have the same hammers. It’s what you do and how you do it that really makes that experience real.

John Jantsch (06:57): Yeah. And I, you know, I’m probably hypersensitive, you know, like I’m going with companies because I like their follow up process, you know? I mean, it’s like, yeah, they get it if they’re doing that thing, right, , you know, they’re probably gonna do the other stuff, right, too, maybe. Why? Exactly.

James Ellis (07:08): But there, there’s a swing in like, you know, if you’ve talked to B2B marketers, it’s always about, it’s not b2b, it’s p2p, it’s person to person. Yeah. Consumer marketing has not quite got that message that it’s a person buying and it’s a person selling, and they need to adopt some of those lessons as

John Jantsch (07:22): Well. Yeah. Just go read the reviews on every plumber. It’s Russ, rusty fixed my boiler. He was amazing. They don’t even mention the company, right? It’s the person that came in.

James Ellis (07:30): Yeah, we just did our kitchen and this guy lived in my house for three weeks. I mean, it’s like this. They lived here. So yeah, I, it’s the experience of the human.

John Jantsch (07:37): Yeah. So let’s use the culture word then, because you know, all of the employer branding initiatives in the world are not really going to move the needle if people don’t think it’s a great place to work, right? I mean, so yeah, how do you, I mean, they’re really one and the same in a lot of ways. One is maybe just the communication of in an outward way, right?

James Ellis (07:59): Yeah. I always kind of get weirded out when this conversation starts because everybody kinda goes, oh, well I know what brand is, I know what culture is, and therefore I’m equating the two. It’s like, yeah, in a shorthand that works. Yeah. But the truth is, I’m a big believer that there’s a lid for every pot that the company that I wanna work with and I would adore working with, is not the company you wanna work with. And that’s not, I’m good, you’re a bad, or vice versa. It’s simply what we want is different than as humans. That’s completely natural. We look at, you know, use the stories that come out. Goldman Sachs, they’re working their junior analysts to a hundred hours a week, and oh my God, the calamity. And even inside my industry was like, oh, this is gonna really impact their employer brand, and it won’t.

(08:37): Because the truth is every single person hired for that job knew the workload that they were taking on, but they also knew the reward of taking that workload on. They made a conscious and very informed choice to do that thing, right? You’re gonna take my twenties, I’m never gonna see my parents for 12 years. That’s fine, because I’m never gonna see the inside of a coach cabin on an airplane ever again. Right? That’s the trade off you’re making now for someone working at state government, that sounds hellacious, but their motivations are completely different. They love the idea that at five o’clock they close their laptop, and I’m done for the day. I can go do this other thing and have this life. They’re motivated by different things. Is one job better than another? No, and that’s the problem. Everybody is really focused on this very linear sense of good versus bad, right?

(09:22): Glassdoor has said, this is your score, and therefore that is your employee brand. We’ve heard things like, this is your culture, therefore that’s your employee brand. It focuses too linearly In the end, you might want status, you might want opportunity, you might want op autonomy, you might want, there’s like nine core human motivations that move us to pick a job. The problem is, candidates don’t realize that they are o motivated by that. But two companies need to understand that this is, they care about who they bring in and the motivations they have. If you are a company of sharks where com competition and backstabbing and win at any cost is the norm, they should be crystal clear about that so that the accidental sheep doesn’t wander in and get murdered in the, you know, feel the sharks. And I know I’m cross-referencing land and and sea animals here, but

John Jantsch (10:07): There’s a lot of mixed metaphors

James Ellis (10:08): Going on yet. That’s right. That sounds like what I do. . But the opposite is true, right? If you’re a company where collaboration and best idea wins and supporting one another, how you want to do business, hiring a shark is just a horrible idea. So there is a lid, furry pot. The job is to communicate what does that mean in a way that’s meaningful and credible.

John Jantsch (10:26): You know, that’s a really great point because I think some people, rather than owning who they are, actually try to say, no, here’s who we should be. And that’s, you know, regardless of what you’re doing, , that’s a recipe for disaster, isn’t

James Ellis (10:37): It? Yeah. You see these lists of these are the best places to work, and you’re like, oh, we’re just like that. Like, no, you’re not. Otherwise you’d be on that list, wouldn’t you? But okay, that’s neither here

John Jantsch (10:45): Nor there. Are you an agency owner, consultant or coach that works with business owners? Then I want to talk to you about adding a new revenue stream to your business that will completely change how you work with clients. For the first time ever, you can license and use the Duct Tape marketing system and methodology in your business through an upcoming three day virtual workshop. Give us three days and you’ll walk away with a complete system that changes how you think about your agency’s growth. The Duct Tape Marketing System is a turnkey set of processes for installing a marketing system that starts with strategy and moves to long-term retainer implementation engagements. We’ve developed a system by successfully working with thousands of businesses. Now you can bring it to your agency and benefit from all the tools, templates, systems, and processes we’ve developed to find out when our next workshop is being held, visit dtm.world/workshop. That’s DTM world slash workshop. All right, so now I’m the boss, and James has come to sell me on this idea of employer branding. And so I’m going, going to say, how do I measure this? What’s C R o? Roi, right?

James Ellis (11:57): That is,

John Jantsch (11:58): I’m the first person that’s ever asked you

James Ellis (12:00): That. Yeah, that’s true. True. You, congratulations, you’ve invented that question. The problem is, it’s the wrong question. You don’t really ask classic branders that what you say is, can you focus our message so that it resonates and connects with the right audience? If you’re selling planes, you’re not like, does my mom know? Does my mom wanna buy our planes? That’s probably not a likely audience for you. However, our CEOs wanting to buy your planes. Okay, that’s really interesting. Will they buy your planes? Well, that’s a salesperson’s job. So branding it as a measurement function is really hard to do. What I would say is that when you’re thinking about employer brand, what you’re really trying to do is make the right people want to work for you. It’s not about more applications, it’s not about volume. And here is where I get into trouble talking to an actual marketer, marketing, and I say this non pejoratively, very positively.

(12:47): Marketing worships at the temple of more, they want more eyeballs and more shelf space and more wallet space and more impressions. And more and more, everything is a function of more employer brand is probably the only aspect of marketing where quality is better than quantity. And I say that and every marketer goes, I like quality too. You’re like, in the end, I have the one job and I can only give it to one person. So my job isn’t to give it to a hundred people. My job is to give it to the best person. That is how I measure. And so really good employer brands should be measured on quality. Are you attracting better quality talent? Are you attracting more people who are potential award winners, or the people who are gonna be the rock stars of your industry? If you are employer branding is doing that job, getting a million people to apply for your job is how you get fired, right? You sell a million, anything you’re gonna get employee of the month, you get a million applicants, you’re getting fired

John Jantsch (13:38): . So how does somebody, you know, we talked off air a little bit, like should this be in the marketing department? Is it in hr? You know, there’s no question that recruiting anybody, you know, showcasing how your company is different. I mean, those are marketing functions, but so, so how are companies wrestling with this aspect, which maybe is, well not maybe has always been there, but now has kind of got a bright light on it and marrying those into like, well, here’s what our overall brand is as well.

James Ellis (14:09): Yeah. Most companies start employer brand as kind of a pilot project. And it’s usually sitting in the recruiting side, Hey, we gotta, why don’t we have an Instagram channel? Hey, why don’t we put some content on LinkedIn? Hey, let’s make a video. Right? They have that pilot, right? Right. They start it, they kind of go, oh, this worked. What if we got serious about it? And they have a pretty clear maturity model of how this works, right? They specify and they get specialists who write caught it and build videos and all that stuff. And we build advocacy who integrate it throughout the entire company. The ideal of all this, the goal of the platonic ideal of what employer brand should be is that the company has one brand. And that, yeah, it’s a lens through which consumers look through or consumer marketing looks through through it to talk to consumers.

(14:52): Investor relations looks through it to talk to their investors. And employer brand looks to see what the candidates want. And so it’s the same brand. And when you see it as a single brand, one, the conversation of where should it live kind of gets a little, it doesn’t really matter. You know, we all have a, you know, if we’re all looking at the same thing, it really makes things easier. But once you’re all looking at that same lens, the work employer brand does, makes consumer marketing better. The work consumer marketing does, makes employer brand better, and therefore they should be integrated. They should talk to each other. Do they need to live side by side? Ah, equivalent on that.

John Jantsch (15:27): So when you talked about attracting talent, there are plenty of surveys, at least that I’ve read, that talk about people. People will, you know, take far less money to work in a place that they’re happy to, you know, work in a place that probably does focus on creating a great employer brand. So would you ever use that type of argument to get the roi, to get these sort of practical nature of this?

James Ellis (15:50): There’s plenty of evidence and research that shows a bad brand. You have to pay a premium to bring in talent that matters. Yeah. That is just, you know, no one wants to work at Bob’s filling house of whatever. You gotta pay 20, 30, 50% more to get that person to even consider you because it’s added risk to them, right? That logo is now on their resume forever. And so that’s a burden, huh? At the same time, I know incredibly smart and talented people who teach, I know incredibly smart and talented people who work at nonprofits who’ve made a very clear decision to say, look, I’ll lose 20, 30% of my income because I’m doing a thing that matters to me. Yeah. So when we think about the phrase evp, everybody forgets the wor middle word, which is value. So what do people value? Okay, yeah.

(16:29): Everybody likes money. Let’s be fair. It’s America. It’s wherever you are. Capitalism works. It’s o not the only conversation, right? If you have to, if you’re, are you choosing Goldman Sachs or you’re working a hundred to 110 hours a week where you’re making all this money, that’s a value transaction. People choose to say, I’m gonna have work 40, 50 hours a week to get this kind of work-life balance. Some people will burn themselves out working for a mission that matters to them, right? Yeah. You look at everybody who works at SpaceX, they’re not there because the management style is so great. They’re there cuz they’re trying to go to Mars and what other companies go into Mars. If that’s what you care about, that’s where you go. It’s the end of that list. So getting a better sense of what is my value offering is really where the conversation happens.

(17:11): The problem is, in most recruiting and candidate experiences, when you think about being a candidate, you hear, oh, we’re a great company, we’re very innovative, we do this, we have this, we do. You get all these claims, and I love talking to marketers cause I can use the word claims with, and you get what I’m saying. Recruiters go, Hey, wait a second, I meant that. But you get all these claims and you’re like, that’s great, but none of them are provable. They’re all completely subjective saying, you are very innovative, it’s easy to do, right? I just did it, but when I show up and you give me a four year old Dell laptop and say, this is your computer from now on, I’m like, whoa, time out. What happened? Innovative. Well I meant this. And suddenly you understand how, how subjective, it’s, so if you look at the entire experience of getting a job, you realize there’s only a handful of non-subjective points being made.

(17:56): And the most important one is salary. Because if you say you’re gonna make a hundred thousand dollars and that you hire that person and you pay them 90,000, that’s called fraud. In fact, it’s technical felony fraud, and people go to jail for that stuff. And you don’t wanna do that. Saying you’re innovative is just some BS you just get to spit out. So in recruiting, the job is to say, if you focus on a non-objective value, if you focus on the subjective value, we have status work, left balance, innovation, autonomy, whatever it is, my rule of thumb is you have to prove it 10 times harder than an objective value. Right? The objective value being, Hey, what’s my title? Hey, what’s my start date? What’s the bonus structure? When do I get a review? That’s pretty hard and fast saying, this is a great place for families to work. Anybody can say that you gotta work real hard for me to go, oh, you, I, that’s true. That must be true. And that’s where the value conversation needs to happen.

John Jantsch (18:50): Yeah. That that’s where, you know, repeated stories demonstrate . That value has really kind of come to play. You know, one point that you made that, you know, as marketers, I’m constantly telling people, you got a narrow focus on who’s an ideal client, and that means you have to tell some people they’re not. Yes. An ideal client. And I think I, I think the same probably holds true here to a degree that you know, if you are X, Y, Z, or if you are looking for X, Y, and Z we’re probably not the place for you. Would you suggest people could go that far?

James Ellis (19:16): Ab No, actually there’s that. That’s a complete tenant of what employer brand is. Your job is not attractive to everybody. In fact, if you really looked at it, you only need to hire, let’s pretend you’re a good concise company. You only need to hire about a thousand people at most. You need to get a hundred thousand people to be really interested enough to work for you that they apply. Okay, a hundred thousand people relative to 8 billion people on the planet. That’s a really low percentage, which means you really only need to be engaging and interesting to 0.001% of all the audience you could be talking to. And once you realize that, you start to go, okay, so I don’t need to make these grand claims that we’re a world beating company, that we’re the greatest company, that we offer the best in class, blah, blah, blah.

(19:57): But I realize who I’m trying to reach. And that means I can start to understand what they care about and suddenly I can put messages out that only they care about, right? If I’m trying to hire working mothers. And that’s a really broad spectrum, but at the same time, I don’t know any companies who say we’re trying to hire working mothers because they are really good at kind of balancing work life. They’re really good at getting things done, they’re really good at managing expectations. They’re really good at talking to customers. There’s a whole narrative about this particular audience would be great for us. So in order to attract, then you have to talk about the things they care about in the way they care about them. So you talk about mother’s rooms, you talk about leave, you talk about balance, you talk about education spending, you talk about all this stuff that a non-working mother might not care about, but you don’t care. You’re trying to focus on this audience. The more you specify and the more you segment, the more specific you can get can get about what they care about. And suddenly you’re not just any company talking, which is every company, but you’re a very interesting company because you’re speaking their particular language.

John Jantsch (20:56): Yeah. So key there is understand what that language is. Well absolutely. I’m getting tired of asking this question, but you know, especially anytime that it comes to people conversations, what has virtual remote work from home done to this dynamic?

James Ellis (21:10): Well, first off, it’s, it just, it changes the math, right? It used to be, well, I’m a hospital or I’m a small startup and I’m in Chicago. You draw a circle on the map, those are the people I can hire. It’s real simple. But suddenly that circle got, went, got erased where it has holes in it. Certainly even companies who I’ve engaged with, where they’re very focused on, you have to come in the last three years, they’ve really said, okay, there’s talent out there that we normally wouldn’t say yes to, but let’s have a conversation. And having to deal with that kind of model and realizing that good talent can bring in good quality work, even if they’re a thousand miles away, has changed the conversation internally in leadership. I know there’s a push to say, let’s bring ’em in, let’s bring ’em in, let’s bring ’em in.

(21:52): That’s a reaction. That is a mm-hmm jean jerk reaction to say, I liked it the way it used to be. I understood that world. Let’s go back there. But I’m pretty sure that’s not how change usually works. It usually just keeps going forward. So this is a, just from a math point of view, it matters at the same time just saying we are a fully in-house work environment. We are a fully hybrid work environment. We are a zero. We are a fully remote work environment that plants massive flags to people saying this is, it shapes their perception of what it’s like to work there. You look at an automatic where there’re completely remote work, there is no office make, make your own office that says volumes about what it’s like to work there relative to a bank that says, no, no, a hundred percent everybody shows up.

(22:38): You wear a suit, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That says a lot. Does it say all of it? Absolutely not. But it does frame the conversation. And what goes back to that sense of competition. If you’re trying to hire a developer and you’re a bank, you have to know that developer is also looking at automatic going, I could work at a fully remote wear, wear my pajamas every single day, do amazing work at midnight kind of thing. Or I have to go to this bank and dress up in a suit and what’s a tie? What that, I sounds like a word, but I don’t know what that word is. Like that you have to explain why that’s good for them. And that kind of focus really changes the math on who you talk to, what you talk about and what they care about.

John Jantsch (23:16): Speaking with James Ellis about employer branding, James, do you want to invite people to connect with you somewhere or find out more about your work?

James Ellis (23:23): Absolutely. You can find me employer brand labs.com, but really I run a, oh, a newsletter. It’s free, it’s really designed, you know, you mentioned my mission of getting a million employer brand thinkers, right? This is how I’m trying to get recruiters, marketers, HR VPs to say, oh, there’s a heart of employer brand that I can use and I can leverage. And that’s where I would invite them to go. So you go to employer brand headlines.dot com or just Google employer brand Headlights. It’s a free newsletter. I, it’s a lot of great content every single week.

John Jantsch (23:49): Awesome. Well, again, thanks for taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing podcast and uh, hopefully we will run into you soon, one of these days out there on the road.

James Ellis (23:56): Thanks so much, John. This has been great.

John Jantsch (23:58): Hey, and one final thing before you go. You know how I talk about marketing strategy, strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that, what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the Marketing Strategy Assessment. You can find it @ marketingassessment.co. Check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketingassessment.co. I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network.

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Weekend Favs January 14

Weekend Favs January 14 written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

My weekend blog post routine includes posting links to a handful of tools or great content I ran across during the week.

I don’t go into depth about the finds, but I encourage you to check them out if they sound interesting. The photo in the post is a favorite for the week from an online source or one I took on the road.

  • WordTune – Wordtune is a company that offers writing assistance by providing a software tool that checks grammar and style, suggesting improvements to make the text clearer and more effective. WordTune has a Chrome extension, so the software can be easily used no matter where you write.
  • re:tune  – Says that they are “The missing front-end to ChatGPT-3.” With this software, you can quickly go from idea to production with their different datasets. 
  • Memorable – Memorable is an AI image generator that focuses on ads. You can just type in what you want your ad to look like, and the AI will create it. You can also upload your images, and the AI with grade them for things like engagement and memorability. 

These are my weekend favs; I would love to hear about some of yours – Tweet me @ducttape

If you want to check out more Weekend Favs you can find them here.