nadosi.com

John Jantsch (00:01.272)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and no guests today. I’m going to do a solo show. I’m going to talk about a topic that I’m seeing a lot of angst around. A lot of people asking questions. You’ve got people saying it is dead. You’ve got people saying, no, it’s not dead. It’s just changing. I’m talking about search engine optimization today. SEO. SEO has been a marketer’s friend.

I mean, you think about that somebody who wants to buy something goes out types into Google, lands on your website, right? a lot of people are seeing that Google’s changing the way that they’re returning search. You got this thing called zero click, which basically means that Google’s giving them all the answers on the Google homepage and no reason to click away to your website to find the answer. you’re getting AI overviews, that truly outline.

Lots of options for the answer. And so what people are seeing is a dramatic drop in organic search to their websites. But here’s the thing I’ve noticed. A lot of that traffic wasn’t very useful anyway. It was people looking for answers to things, how to do things. They weren’t looking to buy something from us. They just wanted to find the content and hey, marketers were more than happy to produce the content. So don’t panic.

they, the, the drop in traffic, if you’ve seen it, doesn’t mean that SEO is dead. it does definitely mean that there needs to be a new playbook. kind of the, the, I’m going to go over, I think five or six, kind of approaches that I think, I can’t remember how many years, five, no, six, six approaches that I think we need to be thinking about taking, right now. So, and I’m going to kind of do old SEO versus new SEO, just to kind of frame each of these approaches. So.

The first one is we need to get away from this idea of keyword rankings. That was like the big thing. That was the holy grail of SEO was, you on page one for X amount of searches? What we need to think in terms about now is search presence and visibility, right? So the old way was track a fixed list of 10 to 20 keywords, try to get just obsess over getting page one rankings. And a lot of people did that by writing thin

John Jantsch (02:24.974)

kind of over-optimized content that was the only goal was to rank. So the new model is to think in terms of total impressions, not just the top 10 spots, because today’s search is not a three-word, four-word search. It’s a long phrase, you know, what we used to call long tail searches. And so…

Having a lot of that high intent long-term search is still okay, even if you are not ranking for page one for that thing you really want to rank for. Google Search Console, I’m going to mention it a bunch of times, is a tool that you should get to know. You should get really friendly with because it’s got a lot of the answers to what we need to be doing today. Measuring click-through rate, which is something that is a metric inside of the Google Search Console.

to look at branded search growth and what is called query diversity, meaning you’re ranking for lots of things. Like one page might actually not rank highly for a high intent search, but it might actually rank for 30 or 40. I’ve seen some 100 different types of searches that are the kinds of things people are putting in. They’re not putting them in in any volume, but they still add up to a lot of traffic to a specific page. And when you start then saying,

that traffic coming to this page is getting X click through rate because people are actually looking for my brand. That’s a much, much better way to think in terms of, of search presence and visibility. So let me give you a tactic example. Use Google search goals. Use Google search console to identify hundreds of low impression, long tail queries, like I’ve been talking about, and then build content clusters.

groupings of blog posts around those and then you can measure growth and not just not just rank and position. All right number two. Don’t worry if some of this starts to get technical we do it all for you. So if I’ll give you an option we’ve created something we call the search visibility system which is our new approach to SEO. So I want to let you know we know how to do it in case you want us to do it for you. How’s that? But everything I’m talking about you

John Jantsch (04:43.982)

can figure out and do yourself. So number two, we’re going to have to embrace AI for content. I think that’s just a given. There are some things that it does far better than humans, but we have to do it carefully because your brand, your stories, your case studies, your voice, your tone, all of that is you. That’s the human part of it. But there’s a great deal of the research of the ideation that can be done and should be done, quite frankly, using these tools.

You know, tools like chat, GPT, you know, Jasper, you know, is another one for content as well. You’re going to put on the strategy, the trust building, you’re going to, you’re going to do the UX still. You’re going to how it looks is going to be up to you. The readability is going to be up to you, but the ideation creating outlines. tell you one thing that is awesome at doing is FAQs. So any content that you produce, anything that you read, you can actually produce the FAQs.

You can answer the FAQs in your voice, in your tone, actually with your brand. Put your brand into those and you start when people start saying, what’s the best brand for X? You’ll start to see some traction around that.

So instead of writing 50 blog posts, one detailed guide on a real, you know, client interview, then use AI, spin that into FAQs, videos, Google business page content. Don’t worry. You know, if you have to write strategic content and then you do that with it, it’s going to pay so many more dividends than just writing those 50 blog posts.

All right, if you are a local business, meaning most of your business comes in a town, in a community, this is definitely for you.

John Jantsch (06:36.546)

That search isn’t going away. That search, if somebody is in a town and Google knows they’re in a town searching for a certain type of product or service, a very high intent, let’s say you’re a remodeling contractor, somebody says best remodeling contractor, they don’t even have to put the name of their town in there, Google knows it, right? So doubling down on local and reputation SEO is going to be extremely, extremely important moving forward. Maybe it’ll go away in two years, but right now.

is going to be extremely important for local businesses. So treat your Google business profile, not as a listing, but really more like a publishing platform all by itself. It gives you tremendous opportunity to publish your reviews, obviously they go there, but also a blog post or just little snippets of things, know, little abstracts of your blog posts, images can be put there. So think about it as more like a

a publishing platform. that ought to be, you ought to pay as much attention to that, if not more sometimes than your own website, quite frankly. Build content that answers local questions. Look at what people do. When you search for one of these terms for your local community, look underneath there at what people also ask, questions that people also ask. So again, going back to the remodeling contractor, what’s the best

countertop, you know, for kitchens today or something somebody might ask. Well, they’re also going to be under that six or seven other questions that people ask. Your FAQ should be addressing all of those. can put them in your Google business page. They don’t care what you publish there. Optimize, you know, location pages, structured data, citations, all the things that that help you show up when people say near me, you’ve probably done that kind of search, right? Mexican restaurant near me. That that all happens.

You know, some of its proximity, obviously, if it is near you, that’s going to show up. But, you know, for other categories, I mean, there are thousands of restaurants, right? But for other categories, maybe it’s an estate attorney or something. Well, there aren’t thousands of those in a community. So you can do a lot over and above proximity by really focusing on that.

John Jantsch (08:54.624)

If you are working with an agency, they better be thinking, asking you about review acquisition, about responding to Q and A’s, about publishing weekly updates and posts on your Google business profiles. I mean, that’s, if you’re doing it yourself, that needs to be your kind of weekly checklist. All right. Number four, prioritizing intent based SEO over volume based SEO. Okay. What do I mean by that?

intent base is clearly a search somebody puts in when they’re looking to buy. mean, that is different than a search when somebody’s trying to say, you know, what’s the safest car I could buy? That’s just kind of those things, you know, lots of volume for them, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re looking for, you know, your particular product or service. So, you know, the bottom line is, regardless of what any SEO company tells you, mean, traffic doesn’t matter.

Unless it leads to trust, engagement and conversion. That’s what you need to worry about. So high intent traffic is certainly competitive, but you know that if you spend your time and effort there, it’s more likely to turn into conversion. So what we do when we work with folks is we want to map all kinds of content to the customer journey. for us, we use something called the marketing hourglass. You’ve probably heard me talk about it as seven stages, no like trust.

Try by, repeat, and refer. And the thing about those stages is those are behaviors that people go through when they’re trying to find a business and engage with a business and then actually do business with that business. And so what we know is that their objectives at each of those stages, their questions at each of those stages, the challenges or what they’re trying to accomplish at each of those stages, it changes. And so should your content.

Make sure that you are not just producing content that gets people to find you, but once they find you, it builds trust. It actually allows them to try maybe what it might be like to work with you or to understand your business, to understand your culture at your organization, all the things that they’re going to lead to them kind of checking those boxes and getting their questions answered at each of those stages. So.

John Jantsch (11:12.066)

build a service page for what you do, but then also create a supporting blog post, a case study, an FAQ. Certainly make sure that you have CTAs on those, calls actions, book a call, whatever it is. All of it optimized for intent. All of it focused on that person that if they land there, there’s a pretty good chance that they’re looking to buy. And that’s different than somebody that you’re just trying to rank for some term that gets you traffic.

So it’s a different mindset in the content that you focus on building. Again, we’ve gone through about a decade period of content for content sake to try to get eyeballs. And now what we’re trying to do is understand the journey that people are on. Link building is number five. It certainly was an aspect, is an aspect still of SEO. Anybody who talks to you about SEO is gonna talk about backlinks or link building. But instead of thinking about link building,

I think we need to reframe that as brand authority building. know, the way people used to do it before was guest blog posts or shady directories that they’d be in or even cold outreach. I mean, I get it all the time. People writing saying here, link to me for whatever reason. So the whole focus was volume, right? Volume of backlinks. The truth of the matter is now,

Google doesn’t even pay that much attention to backlinks, particularly the ones that it doesn’t see as very authoritative. So you’re have hundreds of backlinks and they may view 20 or 30 of them as being valuable at all. So putting effort into just getting random volume of backlinks is something that’s been going away for years, but it’s just absolutely silly now to do because it’s a waste of time. In fact, it may even send some negative signals.

So the new strategy is all about earned media, podcast guesting, PR partnerships, strategic relationships with related industry players. That’s the type of thing that is going to really be a valuable backlink. I post, I publish a podcast, right? Every guest that comes on my podcast, I link back to their show. give them, if they tell me some freebie they have, I’ll probably link back to that.

John Jantsch (13:33.566)

It’s branded because we mentioned their name. We mentioned the company name quite often in that. so that type of backlink is probably the most valuable backlink you can get. A bonus is that we give, I mean, the podcast gets some exposure. Maybe they actually get a client because they heard them on that. It is amazing content. You can take that content from being a guest on a blog or on a podcast and you can republish it. You can cut it up into a hundred social media snippets. So

It is, um, it is the number one, um, backlink that, that I think you should, uh, really be trying to acquire and just to cold out, uh, um, pitch here, I think so strongly of it that I actually own a podcast booking, uh, service. So if you want to get on some podcasts, podcast bookers.com would be an option for getting these types of backlinks that I talked about. And frankly, you can get.

four or five podcast backlinks for the, you know, what somebody would charge you to get probably a bunch of dubious backlinks. So no more guest blog posting, get your clients interviewed on niche podcasts, you’d be on a podcast, get cited in the local news. look for these links that carry brand equity. Don’t worry about page rank or authority anymore. From that standpoint, it’s all about brand. All right. And then the last one, and this is really,

for agencies, but if you have an agency that you work with, know, vanity reporting is something that I think drives a lot of businesses crazy. You know, rankings, traffic, bounce rate, keyword movement. You know, these were all the things that sounded good. In some cases they looked good because they were going the right direction. But what did they amount to for you? So today, long tail queries, your search impression growth.

is now more important. So collectively, what are all the impressions that you’re getting? Your click-through rates by intent category, branded versus non-branded, but particularly branded click-through rates, you want to improve those. You want reporting on those because those really tell the story that you are actually getting the right kind of traffic. Obviously, leads, engagement, email opt-ins, form submissions, phone calls,

John Jantsch (15:56.118)

I that’s what you want to see grow, right? mean, because that’s a pretty darn good indication that there’s not only high intent, but that you’re going to actually get some conversion out of that. So if you’re an agency, I challenge you to start showing clients their search visibility and trust indicators are growing and not just whether they rank for plumber in their city. So those are my…

six, was speaking to both businesses and agencies there because a lot of businesses hire agencies. So if any of this made sense, but you’re thinking, great, how do I do this, John? Happy to help you. Love for you to ask us about our search visibility system, which no shocker here is built around strategy first. So there’s no sense in creating any kind of

visibility or SEO play, you know, without actually building that on a solid foundation of what you’re, you’re who you’re trying to attract, what you do that’s different, your core brand promise, all those things have to be built around that. And then no matter what you have to have content. So we’re going to help you build not only helpful content, but we’re going to help you build these content clusters as we call them or hub pages. You’ve got to

If you’re local business, you definitely need to focus on Google business and your local SEO optimization becoming more important than ever. We, I love Google search console and I think there are so many, it’s the most underutilized tool. It’s free. And it’s the most underutilized tool. And there are so many nuggets and insights that you can gain from there. So we definitely mine that.

to really direct a lot of what we do and then really work on your reputation, authority building and give you reporting that’s actually going to tell an accurate story. if you’re listening to this and you want to know more, it’s just John at ductapemarketing.com or just visit our website. You can book an appointment with.

John Jantsch (18:03.7)

somebody that can really kind of walk you through what strategy first looks like, how we’re employing AI as part of all of this. And, and maybe, this idea of how to think differently about SEO. you’re an agency, this is something that we teach and licensed to a lot of agencies as well. So hopefully that was useful for today. I’m going to actually be harping on this idea. In fact, I’m going to do a full show on Google search console, as well. So you might want to tune in for that. So.

Thanks for listening. Love those reviews. Love any feedback. It’s just John at DucktapeMarketing.com and hopefully we’ll see you one of these days out there on the road.

Let’s talk about installing the right system for your business.

How Small Businesses Can Use AI (Without the Hype or Overwhelm)

How Small Businesses Can Use AI (Without the Hype or Overwhelm) written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Cut the Noise: A Practical AI Guide for Small Business Owners

AI is everywhere, and if you’re a small business owner, you’re probably wondering: “How do I actually make this work for my business without adding complexity or draining my budget?” Here’s a quick checklist.

You’re not alone. Many small businesses are stuck between the fear of missing out and the fog of too many tools. This guide simplifies what matters most, with a practical, no-fluff approach grounded in the Duct Tape Marketing system. Let’s break it down.

1. Why So Many SMBs Feel Stuck on AI

Small business owners aren’t short on ambition—they’re short on time and clarity. The AI space is filled with promises, but most of the tools are built for enterprises, not everyday businesses. What most small businesses need isn’t innovation for innovation’s sake—they need practical, working solutions that deliver results now.

2. Where AI is Actually Moving the Needle

Making Your Team Faster (Without Hiring)

AI tools like ChatGPT and Claude act like digital assistants—enhancing productivity across your team. Whether it’s writing content, summarizing notes, or handling repetitive tasks, these tools can reduce time spent and free your team up to focus on value-added work.

Content, Messaging, and Consistency at Scale

With the Duct Tape Marketing system, consistency is key. AI can help maintain a steady drumbeat of content across email, blogs, and social media. The goal isn’t full automation—it’s to give your team momentum by eliminating the blank page problem.

Automating the Mundane to Free Up Strategy

When AI automates low-level, repetitive work, it creates room for high-level thinking. That means you can finally focus on refining your customer journey, building better campaigns, or improving your referral engine—core pieces of a successful marketing system.

3. Don’t Fall for These Shiny Promises

The “Magic Robot That Runs the Business” Fantasy

Fully autonomous AI agents aren’t ready for prime time. Many small businesses get lured into the promise of set-it-and-forget-it systems. These usually result in wasted money and fragmented operations.

Strategy-Free Automation

Without a clear understanding of your target audience and customer journey, AI just makes mistakes faster. Strategy must come first. Tools should serve the strategy—not replace it.

4. The Pitfalls That Sneak Up on You

Tool Overload and Decision Fatigue

Jumping from one new AI tool to the next leads to inconsistency, confusion, and diminished ROI. You don’t need more tools—you need better systems that use fewer tools, more effectively.

Data Chaos

Most AI tools rely on clean, structured data. If your customer data is a mess, your AI output will reflect that. Take time to clean and centralize your data first—it’s the foundation for success.

AI Without a Marketing Strategy

Even the best tech won’t save a broken funnel or confused messaging. Align AI with a strategic foundation: clear ideal client personas, messaging that resonates, and a defined marketing hourglass.

Content That Loses Your Voice

AI can write, but it can’t replace your perspective. Automated content that lacks authenticity erodes trust. Use AI to assist—not author—your brand voice.

5. A Smarter, Simpler AI Approach (The Duct Tape Way)

Lead with Strategy

Before you start testing tools, nail down your strategy. Who’s your ideal client? What problems do you solve? How do people find you today? Strategy informs every AI decision that follows.

Focus on One Use Case

Don’t try to transform your business overnight. Start with one job that AI can handle: writing emails, summarizing meeting notes, or transcribing content. Solve one pain point, prove it works, then expand.

Create Repeatable Workflows

Turn your AI wins into systems. Document the steps. Assign roles. Train your team. The goal is consistent execution—whether it’s Monday morning or Friday at 4:30 PM.

Invest in Training

Buying a tool isn’t the same as knowing how to use it. Run internal training, create prompt libraries, and give your team time to practice. The faster they master it, the more ROI you’ll see.

Keep the Human Filter

Review everything before it ships. Especially customer-facing content. AI can get you to 80%, but your brand depends on that final 20%—the polish, the tone, the truth.

6. Final Word: AI That Builds Real Business Value

At Duct Tape Marketing, we believe tools should support strategy—not distract from it. AI is no different. When integrated into a proven marketing system, AI can amplify your strengths and streamline your operations. But when added haphazardly, it becomes just another distraction.

The key to making AI work for your business isn’t complexity—it’s clarity. Get your fundamentals in place. Choose tools that align. Build processes your team can own. Then let AI help you do more of what already works.

Want help building a marketing system that makes AI practical, profitable, and sustainable?

Win by Focusing on Your Core Users

Win by Focusing on Your Core Users written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Shane Murphy-Reuter

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Shane Murphy-Reuter, President of Go-To-Market at Calendly. Calendly, best known for revolutionizing scheduling software, is now redefining its space by expanding deeper into relationship management and SMB tools without losing sight of its core value: simplifying time.

During our conversation, Shane shared the behind-the-scenes strategy behind Calendly’s evolution—from a simple time management tool to an intelligent, AI-powered business automation platform. As the company scales, its unwavering focus on serving solopreneurs, SMBs, and customer-centric roles like sales and coaching has set it apart in a saturated SaaS market. Shane emphasized the importance of aligning sales, marketing, and customer experience—a key piece of Calendly’s GTM strategy that supports sustainable SaaS growth.

Key Takeaways:

Customer Obsession Wins: Calendly’s success is rooted in its deep understanding of time-sensitive professionals like coaches, therapists, and salespeople—its most fervent users.
Grow Without Diluting: Rather than chasing every trend, Calendly avoids becoming a “one-trick pony” by strategically expanding within its strongest customer base.
Enterprise Can Still Be Personal: Even as it moves into enterprise scheduling, Calendly maintains the simplicity and flexibility that made it popular with individuals.
Smart Product Expansion: By anchoring new offerings in its scheduling core and enhancing them with AI, Calendly innovates while staying true to its mission.
Blending Sales Models: Shane discussed merging product-led growth with a tailored sales approach—ensuring that customers get value whether they click “buy now” or engage a sales rep.
Category Creation + Innovation: Calendly isn’t just a tool; it’s shaping how modern professionals manage relationships and time—key pillars of any successful business.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing Shane Murphy-Reuter
[00:51] Extending Your Core Business
[04:47] How Hyperfocus Protects Your Business
[06:51] Find your Unique Advantage
[10:28] Messaging for Clients with Different Needs
[15:05] Shifting Mindset to Deal with Growth
[17:00] Incentivizing Sales Teams
[19:00] How Will AI Effect Scheduling Software

More About Shane Murphy-Reuter:

Check out Shane Murphy-Reuter’s Website
Connect with Shane Murphy-Reuter on LinkedIn

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.93)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Shane Murphy-Reuter. He’s the president and go-to-market. I guess you just call that GTM, don’t you? At Calendly, the platform helping individuals, teams, and organizations create better meeting experiences by simplifying complex scheduling. He’s focused on driving brand awareness and demand by ensuring alignment between sales.

marketing and CX. So Shane, welcome to the show.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (00:32.607)

Great to be here. Yes, we shorten it to GTM, but call it whatever you want. Yeah, no, it’s awesome to be your big fan of the show. So great to talk.

John Jantsch (00:41.07)

Thank you. So I’m going to talk about, I’m going to ask this question in the context of Calendly, but I think that this applies really to a lot of businesses out there. I Calendly started as a small idea of a technology for scheduling, just scheduling. And it’s certainly grown to something much bigger. That’s something that I think happens to a lot of companies you want to talk a little bit about. I know you’re

You haven’t been there from the beginning, but you want to talk a little bit about the evolution of that thinking in Calendly?

Shane Murphy-Reuter (01:13.087)

Yeah, of course. Well, I’ve actually only been at Calendly now, I think four months. I like to write it down, know, the expectations are lower. And so, yeah, I haven’t seen the journey from inside, but actually I’ve known Tope for, who’s the CEO of Calendly for about five or six years. You know, I’ve been very much watching it from the sidelines. And I would say also, if you look at my background, the companies that I tend to join are at a very similar stage to Calendly where

they’ve invented some new technology to solve some sort of pain point for a customer type and then have that exponential growth when they sort of like crack the market a little bit to get that product market fit. And then they start to think about, where maybe growth is starting to slow a little bit in that original market and where to go from here. And I think Calendly has been on that journey. Originally,

John Jantsch (01:51.778)

Mm-hmm.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (02:03.561)

we solved just that scheduling problem, that one problem around how do two people schedule meetings together. And it’s been very, very successful. But now the question is, well, how do you extend from here? And I think a lot of companies get that wrong, frankly. Like think there’s broadly two paths, right? You either take the technology that you’ve built and apply it to different markets.

John Jantsch (02:28.077)

Yes.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (02:28.409)

Or you take a target market or a customer segment that you have strength with with your original product and then extend the product offerings that you provide to those customers. And certainly, Canley’s strategy from here and hopefully very, very soon we’ll be launching our second major, major product is to really extend the products that we offer within a certain target market because we just believe there’s massive opportunity there to like.

solve other points in the relationship management lifecycle for our customers. it’s been, yeah, I’ve been here four months, but I think that the account is on like a pretty, classic journey that I’ve seen a lot of companies go through.

John Jantsch (03:07.394)

Do you, do you feel like you are on the journey to define a category or you have defined a category? You mentioned relationship management. I don’t know that people would have applied what, what Cowan Lee initially started doing to that term. mean, do feel like you’re, you’re categorizing, you know, a new way of working.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (03:24.641)

It’s a great question. think scheduling, our original product, we created the category, right? We are now basically the Kleenex for scheduling, which is amazing. I think the challenge though with it is different categories of different towns, right? Different total addressable markets. And I think for scheduling, it is a relatively narrow use case, right? Like it’s, while it’s extremely important for our customers, it’s narrow, but we have this incredible hook into the customer.

John Jantsch (03:28.034)

Yeah. Right.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (03:54.753)

How can we add more? And to be fair, I think for a go-forward strategy, we think about relationship management software more generally. No, I think the new areas that we’ll go into are existing categories like, I don’t want to give up our product roadmap, but you can imagine the types of other relationship management softwares that are out there, like the CRMs, et cetera. I think where our unique advantage is really in the customer types that we’ll go in service. And I think that we can

if we can build the software with hyper focus on kind of these SMBs and solopreneurs, I think that we can have great success relative to the incumbents that are in the market. So to answer the question more directly, I think we’ve done this category creation thing with scheduling and we’ll continue to hopefully dominate that market. From here though, I think it’s more about innovating within how we deliver in existing categories.

John Jantsch (04:52.974)

I’m sure you maybe talk about this in closed door meetings, maybe worry about it even sometimes, but how does a company like Calendar, especially in the early days when you essentially created a product that had a certain set of features and the Microsofts, the Googles of the world could easily squash that. You know, one day wake up and say, we’re going to do that. How do you kind of ward off that? do you worry about, again, I know you’ve grown to the point where,

You probably have more market share in scheduling than some of the big people that, you know, that could have done that. But do you ever sit around and worry about, Hey, we have to create more features or get more hooks in, so that we’re not just this one trick pony that gets squashed.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (05:36.421)

Yeah, that’s a great question. And for sure, I think if you look at it from the outside, you may imagine that something like scheduling is very, very easy to replicate. And I think this is where this hyper focus on your most fervent customers is so important. If you talk to the majority of our customers, their time is their money. A lot of them actually sell their time. If you’re a coach,

John Jantsch (06:03.032)

Sure.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (06:03.263)

you know, your therapist, et cetera. And then others are, if you’re in sales, like your time is how you get out there. And therefore an incredible scheduling experience is really important. So for sure, there are many competitors out there, lots of competitors, but because they just don’t have that hyper focus like we do around the true intricacies of the details of the problem set of our customers, they have not been able to compete. And for what it’s worth,

When we look at our data, for sure we’re hearing a little bit more about other competitors popping up as you would expect as any company scales. But in reality, it’s not impacted our business in the way that I think from the outside in you would expect. And so we actually think that we have a better opportunity to disrupt other incumbents than the other way around, given just how critically important this is for our customers. They’re not going to go and buy a slightly less

John Jantsch (06:53.304)

Yeah.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (07:01.419)

good product, they’re just not gonna do it, they want the best.

John Jantsch (07:04.962)

One of the things I’ve seen software companies do as they they grew is like, let’s take on this and this and let’s do email and let’s do the CRM part of it. And it makes a lot of sense, right? It’s like, I’ve got this end to end product, but then they make compromises in every single category because it’s very hard to have the one thing that fits all. mean, is there any danger you think in trying for somebody to actually start trying to take market share by adding

you know, more product that’s already out there and actually diluting what they’re good at.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (07:37.345)

is an absolute risk and one that you need to be extremely careful of. So every company I’ve worked at as we’ve gone on this multi-product journey, there is a constant debate around how much resource should you put into continuing to improve your core product versus how much should you put into new innovative areas. So it is a debate and we will never stop innovating on our core of scheduling. I do think though, as you think about like,

the product areas that you move into, the question has to be, what’s your unique advantage to win there? And I don’t like, I’ve seen companies just sort of go, we’re just going to go in there, we’re going to build in and say, well, okay, well, you really thought about the strategy and it can’t just be like a price thing, right? That’s not enough. And I think typically that unique advantage tends to come from, as I said before, one either is some sort of technology advantage that you have.

John Jantsch (08:12.792)

Yeah.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (08:33.375)

I’ll give an example of Webflow where I worked last. Webflow’s unique technology advantage was that built a way for you to manipulate code in a visual environment. Very easy for them to take that technology and move it beyond just building websites into how you build other types of technology. They have a technology advantage they can apply to different markets. For Calendly, think the reason Calendly has been so successful are two things. One,

I do think that we have a unique penetration within a type of customer that I mentioned before, that we really understand and can, as we go into these new areas, make sure that we’re addressing their unique needs for a new product. like cars, right, before it used to be Model T, any color you want as long as it’s black, which is fine when you’ve got a technology advantage like Henry Ford had. He had a technology advantage, so you mass market it.

John Jantsch (09:24.27)

you

Shane Murphy-Reuter (09:30.205)

Now that’s crazy because that technology advantage no longer exists. You have every million type of car for different types of very specific segments of the market. And so as we think about our go for product strategy, think some of it, I wouldn’t say we necessarily have a technology advantage, but I think that we have a data advantage in being so hooked so clearly into the customer’s most important thing, which is their time and the data around that.

And then we have a unique advantage, I think, in making sure that when we build those new product areas, they’re beautifully connected and integrated with scheduling and that we build for that segment. And we don’t try and build the Model T, we try and build a very, very, very tailored experience for the customer set that we know that we have the greatest right to win in. And for what it’s worth, we also believe that the incumbents in the relationship management software market have left that market behind. And so I think there’s a…

great opportunity for us to win. But back to the original question, yes, of course we need to balance and make sure that we’re not under-investing in our core. I use the phrase internally at companies that if you kill the cash cow, nobody gets milk. And so, yeah, you want to make sure that the core business, which is for us scheduling, continues to, we continue innovating.

John Jantsch (10:55.394)

One of the things that’s really tempting as companies grow to the size that Connolly has now, I mean, some of your original customers clicked on a button, signed up. It was just them in their house doing scheduling and it worked for them. It was awesome. It was easy, no friction. And now you’re starting to have enterprise con. That security and adoption and uptime and all these kinds of things really have to be sold.

How do you message first off? Let’s let we can talk about operationally as well, but how do you message to such distinctly different sales channels?

Shane Murphy-Reuter (11:38.185)

Yeah, it’s a great question. I think about this through two different lenses. The first one is obviously the who you’re going after. And for what it’s worth, typically in enterprise companies, particularly for a company like Calendly, the user within that company tends to test it out first. And the user is the person that has that problem. So a salesperson within an enterprise company will go, this is really painful scheduling.

John Jantsch (12:00.429)

Mm.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (12:06.625)

I’ve heard by Cano, you’ll go check it out and they’ll come in through our PLG funnel, our self-serve funnel. And there, how you sell to them and the message for them is extremely similar as the message to a solopreneur and SMB because they are the user, they have this actual direct pain of the product solves. And so I think that when, in a lot of ways that is consistent. Now, of course, if you’ve got that person in your funnel, right, who is the user within an enterprise,

Your job now is to use other channels to go and directly target the procurement team, the security team, the actual economic buyer with very targeted messaging. This is typically through a sales team. We can also be using things like account-based marketing to go do that so that you bring your enterprise value proposition to them. And this is classic in SaaS. This is why if you go to most SaaS websites, unless they are purely focused on the enterprise market,

the homepage will be very directed at the end user, and they will have an enterprise section which tells the full enterprise value proposition. And the price in the packaging, most of the packages are designed for the actual users, and they’ve got an enterprise package designed for those other people that you’re trying to sell to. I think it’s about, and finding the balance of that depends on your business and the degree to which it’s like your opportunities in the enterprise versus in the SMB.

John Jantsch (13:08.675)

Mm-hmm.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (13:33.409)

So I think you needed to do both, but I think my key point there is that even in the enterprises, are where you’re to get the adoption is getting a end user to love it because they end up becoming what we call in the, in sort of go to market, the champion. They’re going in, Hey boss, we’ve got to use this thing. Here’s how much time it will save me. If you don’t get the champion, if you don’t get that user to care, the

John Jantsch (13:50.894)

Sure.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (13:59.883)

Procurement team, the security team, they don’t give a shit. Oops, sorry, shouldn’t have said it. They don’t care. And so I think that’s the key thing that I think oftentimes people miss.

John Jantsch (14:09.402)

So is part of what you’ve been brought to do is build a sales team or is there already a sales team that’s on the ground?

Shane Murphy-Reuter (14:17.457)

Yeah, we already had a sales team. when I joined, Cal and Lee had already gone on the journey to build an enterprise product offering an enterprise sort of package and team. think what I’m trying to do is blend the self-serve and sales experience in a more natural way. So again, a lesson that I’ve had at pretty much every single company I’ve worked for in B2B has had a combination of self-serve or product-led growth and sales led growth.

And typically speaking, they tend to be pretty siloed on islands. And so what happens is you either have this experience for the customer that’s fully self-serve, maybe a reactive support team, but pretty much self-serve. And then if you’re willing to buy the enterprise package, now you go through this like really human intensive experience. The SDR goes to the AE, goes to the account management team with implementation. And it’s like, it makes actually no sense if you think about it from first principles, why it would be such a

binary distinction between the two. And so I think a lot of companies are now realizing, you know, things like velocity sales or, you know, much more softer touch sales to still support the customer, but also get out of the way if they want to just like adopt and use. And so the team had already started to do some of that work, but it’s a lot of what I think about day in day out is how to blend the two in a more natural way.

John Jantsch (15:37.496)

Yeah.

Just get rid of a few of the acronyms, that would help, right? So have you found, and this may be a tough question for you to answer, you may not want to answer this, but have you found that the role that you’ve been brought into play is new and has that required a mindset shift because of the way the company’s grown, because of the company culture? Again, you don’t have to talk specifically about your experience as much as…

Shane Murphy-Reuter (15:45.353)

yeah.

John Jantsch (16:10.242)

I’m sure other companies have experienced those kind of growing pains too.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (16:14.465)

Yeah, it’s a great question. Like I think what a lot of companies are starting to realize is, and in my experience is that particularly technology companies are founded by technologists. And so a lot of the time they start self-serve, right? They go, well, we can just set up a signup link and people can just buy it. And then at some point a board member, somebody said, hey, you’ve got a bunch of larger customers here. You need to build an enterprise offering. They go and hire a head of sales from some enterprise company.

John Jantsch (16:25.612)

Yeah.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (16:42.591)

And that person brings a playbook and drops this like very classic sales experience on top of the self-serve base, creating this sort of siloed nature in this kind of like a, and so I think a lot of companies, there’s probably been about 10 years of evolution of that happening. A lot of companies have started to really feel the pain of those things being so disconnected. And so it is becoming more common.

John Jantsch (16:54.082)

Mm-hmm.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (17:10.305)

to bring in a person running all of go-to-market, particularly in companies where they have both experiences in their business for all the reasons that I described because in the traditional model of having maybe a CMO who runs the self-serve side and a CRO or head of sales who runs the sales side, that traditional model actually beds in the fact that these two things are on a silo. And so…

John Jantsch (17:35.054)

Sure.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (17:37.205)

I do think that it’s increasingly happening that whether it’s they just use the term CRO, it’s your tone, all of it, or a president of GoToMarket like I am, a lot more companies are doing it now.

John Jantsch (17:50.982)

I’m going to get you in trouble here probably. But do you think that the way that salespeople are incentivized really actually exacerbates that problem?

Shane Murphy-Reuter (18:02.387)

It’s a really great question. actually remember listening to Bill Macias on a podcast who was the, he was head of CMO at Slack. I think he was at Zendesk, like kind of a goat in the industry. He talked about, I think it was at Slack bringing in for the sales team that part of their compensation was linked also to a customer satisfaction of the sales process. And so anyway, I just thought I’d share that. But yes, I do think that there is a, there is a.

I think in the more enterprise end of sales, having incentivization to ensure that, you know, the sales team do a good job of maximizing the revenue potential is important. So like, if I’m not incentivized, what I’ll do is I’ll say, yeah, okay, well, maybe I’ll maximize the discount that I give, or I’ll say, I won’t try and bother some multi-product sell. I’ll just say, just get them in and on this one product. And so in certain instances, you do want incentives for the sales team to

John Jantsch (18:50.968)

Yeah, yeah.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (19:01.761)

push for the largest value sell as possible and incentivization around with commission structures, et cetera, can be important there. And so, for example, at Calendly, our enterprise sales team absolutely are commission-based and I think that’s the right approach. In a more velocity sales model that I mentioned before where it might be lighter touch, you’re semi-helping the customer like a support, right? You’re answering questions, you’re doing somewhat of a value sell but not the full thing.

you, you, do think that you want to be very careful not to have like a traditional model. And so for example, I currently, we don’t write their more salaries. And so I think you just need to apply the right incentive structure based on what, what are you trying to incentivize these people to do? And, and, and so I do think that there is a place for it as I mentioned, but maybe not across the board on a sales team.

John Jantsch (19:58.75)

All right. Let’s end today on a product question. I think this might be a record. think we’re 20 minutes in exactly. And I’m the first mention of AI. So how is AI going to impact the product from what you know so far?

Shane Murphy-Reuter (20:16.935)

Yeah, that’s a great question. I mentioned that we believe this is an opportunity to innovate in the relationship management software space for SMBs and solopreneurs, know, the smaller companies. One of the reasons that up until now, it’s been difficult to build this type of software for those customers is that typically those software types of software need like an army of operations people to set them up and manage them like

If you talk to companies, have Salesforce or Marketo or any of these, there’s like, there’s like job boards of like, you know, kind of, all these ops to manage these tools. And so if you’re at SMB, that’s really challenging, right? The beautiful thing is that we’re going to start entering the space just as AI is getting to the point where they can start automating a bunch of the, used to be, take a lot of operational, time and effort. And so.

John Jantsch (20:45.314)

Yeah.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (21:12.033)

You can imagine a world where like, you know, today, a CRM, even in most cases, still looks like one of these sort of like databases, right? Line items of people or whatever. Exactly. Right. And why does that exist? Because it was a record keeper. It was just a database, right? In the world of AI, that all happens automatically. Now a CRM or relation management software can be actually about surfacing the insights and actions of things that can truly lead to you creating better relationships. And so I think.

John Jantsch (21:18.722)

Yeah, it’s just a relational database, right?

John Jantsch (21:25.422)

the

Shane Murphy-Reuter (21:41.601)

I think it’s a beautiful time for any company that we start thinking about innovating into a new space because you have a blank sheet of paper to define the way you interact with this product in an AI first way, which I think the incumbents are going to really struggle with. And that’s why a lot of the incumbents are doing the co-pilot thing, right? We’ve got this chunky, hard to use software. So how we use AI will give you a clip.

John Jantsch (22:00.589)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (22:04.162)

Right.

button.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (22:10.517)

to help you to figure out how to use a really hard software. Well, the other way you could do it is actually design it from first principles in a way that’s really easy to use. And so anyway, we think that there’s a huge opportunity there. And for sure, our product roadmap from here is like AI first. And we are trying to think about everything from that lens.

John Jantsch (22:28.142)

Yeah.

Well, Shane, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there anywhere you’d want to invite people to connect with you? I know obviously Calendly is where they can find out about the product, but anywhere you like to hang out?

Shane Murphy-Reuter (22:45.117)

LinkedIn is the best one. I used to be in other places, but I think we can safely point people to LinkedIn for now.

John Jantsch (22:51.692)

Yeah, awesome. Again, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (22:56.893)

Thanks so much, John. It was a pleasure.

SEO Isn’t Dead: The New Rules of Search in 2025

SEO Isn’t Dead: The New Rules of Search in 2025 written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

SEO Isn’t Dead. It’s Just Finally Growing Up.

Why the smartest marketers are ditching outdated SEO tactics—and what to do instead.

The Myth of “SEO Is Dead”

Let’s get this out of the way: SEO isn’t dead.

But old-school SEO? The keyword-stuffing, rank-chasing, guest-post-spamming kind? Yeah, that’s buried. Google has moved on. Your audience has moved on. Even AI has moved on.

Today, SEO isn’t about keywords. It’s about being visible where trust is built and decisions are made—in AI summaries, voice search, Google Business Profiles, Reddit threads, podcasts, and YouTube explainers.

The question isn’t “How do I rank #1?” It’s “How do I show up when it matters?”

Old SEO vs. New SEO: What’s Actually Changed

Keyword Rankings → Visibility & Intent

Old SEO focused on ranking for a short list of “money keywords.” But that doesn’t reflect how people search anymore. Today’s winning marketers are shifting to:

Search Impressions > Page-One Rankings
Branded Search Growth > Generic Volume
Click-Through Rate (CTR) by Intent Category

Pro tip: Use Google Search Console to find the hundreds of low-impression long-tail queries you’re already appearing for—and build content hubs around them.

AI Content at Scale → Human-Led Strategy

Yes, everyone’s using AI for content. But the winners are doing it smarter:

Use AI for outlines, FAQs, and first drafts
Layer in human experience, storytelling, and real examples
Prioritize E-E-A-T in every word

Pro tip: Record one real client interview → turn it into a guide → atomize into FAQs, videos, and Google Business posts.

Link Building → Brand Building

Forget cold outreach and shady directories. Google—and AI agents—reward real-world authority.

Get interviewed on industry podcasts
Contribute to comparison roundups and bylines
Sponsor local events or niche trade shows

Pro tip: One Forbes mention or ListenNotes-ranked podcast carries more AI weight than 100 no-name backlinks.

Introducing the Search Visibility System (SVS)

Why Search Is No Longer Just “Search”

Today, people discover businesses via:

Google’s SGE (Search Generative Experience)
ChatGPT, Bing Copilot, and Perplexity
YouTube, Reddit, TikTok, and even podcasts

The SVS helps you show up across ALL of those channels—not just Google.

The 7-Part SVS Framework

Strategy First
Map ideal clients and their real search behavior, including “People Also Ask” and AI-style queries.
Visibility Audit
See how and where you show up in AI-powered and traditional search.
Helpful Content Hubs
Build structured clusters using FAQs, TL;DRs, and “best of” lists.
Local & Reputation SEO
Google Business updates, Q&As, “Is [Brand] trustworthy?” pages.
Digital PR & Authority
Earned media, Reddit engagement, Wikipedia citations.
AI Search Optimization
Monthly monitoring of AI citations and structured content.
Transactional AI Readiness
Schema, clear CTAs, “Why Us” pages, AI-friendly formatting.

Zero-Click Search & AI Discovery: How to Show Up Without Rankings

Here’s the kicker: Not all visibility results in clicks. And that’s okay.

Google’s SGE often answers a question without linking
ChatGPT summarizes multiple sources
YouTube Shorts and Reddit get you discovered without a website visit

That’s why SVS prioritizes branded mentions, structured content, and syndication across platforms. You’re not trying to win a click. You’re trying to win trust.

What to Do Right Now

Ready to move into the new SEO era? Start here:

Audit your current search presence using GSC, ChatGPT, Bing, etc.
Build one content hub using long-tail query data + client conversations.
Claim your local trust signals—Google Business Posts, Q&A, Reviews.
Get cited or interviewed on niche podcasts or comparison blogs.
Reformat existing content with summaries, Q&As, schema, conversational headers.

Final Word: Search Is Still Alive—It’s Just Smarter

If SEO feels broken, it’s because you’re playing by outdated rules.

The smartest marketers in 2025 are shifting from “rankings and backlinks” to visibility, trust, and intent-driven journeys. They’re blending SEO, PR, content, and AI-readiness into one simple strategy.

And that strategy is the Search Visibility System (SVS).

Want help installing the SVS in your business? Let’s talk.

Weekend Favs April 12th

Weekend Favs April 12th written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

My weekend blog post routine includes posting links to a handful of tools or great content I ran across during the week.

Teamfluence is a B2B social selling platform designed to enhance LinkedIn-based sales strategies.
PhantomBuster offers automation tools to extract data and automate actions across various platforms, aiding in lead generation and outreach.
Replit is an online development environment that enables users to write, run, and deploy code collaboratively.

I don’t go into depth about the finds, but I encourage you to check them out if they sound interesting. The photo in the post is a favorite for the week from an online source or one I took on the road. These are my weekend favs; I would love to hear about some of yours – Connect with me on Linkedin!

If you want to check out more Weekend Favs you can find them here.

Bridging the Courage Gap in Your Business

Bridging the Courage Gap in Your Business written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Margie Warrell

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Dr. Margie Warrell, bestselling author, leadership coach, and global authority on courage and risk-taking. We unpacked the core ideas from her latest book The Courage Gap: Five Steps to Braver Action—a must-read for anyone navigating the often uncomfortable decisions that come with running a business.

From Fortune 500 boardrooms to small consulting firms, Margie has helped leaders overcome fear, self-doubt, and the imposter syndrome that hold them back from realizing their full potential. Our conversation explored the emotional triggers that prevent entrepreneurs from raising their rates, making bold decisions, or having tough conversations. Her advice? Business courage isn’t about fearlessness—it’s about action in the presence of fear. Whether you’re a solo entrepreneur or leading a team, closing the courage gap could be the difference between surviving and thriving.

Dr. Margie Warrell’s insights offer an actionable framework for overcoming fear, boosting your entrepreneur mindset, and leading with integrity. Bridging the courage gap could be your most powerful strategy for small business growth.

Key Takeaways:

The Courage Gap Is Real: The space between what you know you should do and what you actually do is often filled with fear and hesitation—not a lack of knowledge.
Bravery in Leadership Starts Small: Margie emphasizes that courage is like a muscle. Daily habits like journaling, exercising, and intentional pauses help strengthen it.
Pause or Procrastination?: Learn to distinguish between a strategic pause and fear-based delay. Clarity leads to action.
Imposter Syndrome Affects Everyone: While female entrepreneurs often face a unique set of challenges, courage gaps affect all leaders—especially when it comes to pricing strategy and self-worth.
Raise Your Rates With Confidence: Stop questioning your value. Consider what your service is worth to them, not just what you feel comfortable charging.
Move Through the Unknown: Waiting for certainty leads to stagnation. Small, courageous steps build momentum and inform your next best move.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introduction to Margie Warrell
[01:01] What is the Courage Gap?
[02:57] The Difference Between Fear-based and Strategic Pausing
[05:06] What Role Does Imposter Sydrone Play?
[09:48] Finding the Courage to Charge Your Worth
[12:15] Habits to Build Courage
[14:35] Dealing with Fear of Rejection
[17:10] Being Couragous Through the Unknown

More About Margie Warrell:

Check out Margie Warrell’s Website
Connect with Margie Warrell on LinkedIn

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.92)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Margie Warrell. From the outback Australia to Fortune 500 boardrooms, and the US Congress, Dr. Margie Warrell is a global authority on leadership, courage and navigating risk. Bestselling author, speaker and coach, she empowers people to make bold decisions. She’s also the host of a show like this called The Live Brave Live.

There go. I’ll get it right. Live brave podcast. We’re going to talk about her sixth book today, the courage gap, five steps to braver action. So Margie, welcome to the show. So are you living in Australia? No, you can’t be. It would.

Margie Warrell (00:38.333)

Great to be with you, John.

Margie Warrell (00:43.038)

No, I am living on the same terra firma as you. I actually live just south of Washington DC, in North Virginia.

John Jantsch (00:50.711)

Okay, I was gonna say it would be a terrible hour to be doing a podcast in Australia right now. Yes. So let’s start with the with the title of the book, The Courage Gap. What is it?

Margie Warrell (00:53.696)

It would, 5 a.m.

Margie Warrell (01:04.804)

Yeah, well, John, have you ever had one of those times where you knew there was something you should do? Like you knew you needed to have a conversation, you knew you needed to make a change and you needed to move someone out of a role or and yet you held back and you hesitated and you procrastinated and you rationalized and I can see you nodding. Well, you know, it is not a lack of knowledge that creates that gap between

John Jantsch (01:24.494)

Yeah, of course. Who has it?

Margie Warrell (01:32.936)

between what we should do and what we do. It is a lack of courage and that gap is widened by our fear. What will happen? What if this person gets upset? What if I mess it up? What if I lose money? What if I get it wrong? What if it’s really ugly and awkward and there’s a huge fallout? What will people say? What if I fail? And so our fear creates the gap between the actions we’re entirely capable of taking, holding someone to account.

you know, getting rid of someone out of your business because they’re not a fit, et cetera. Having a difficult conversation with your co-owner and what we actually do. And it takes courage to close that gap. But as I make the case at the start of the book, when we fail to take those risks, to make the change, take the chance, speak up, et cetera, we actually become more vulnerable to worse outcomes over time.

So the discomfort we’re trying to save ourselves, the thing we’re trying to avoid, we actually end up suffering way more over time and end up in a worse place. And it’s why, John, that most people, when I speak to them and I do a lot of speaking and run programs, and I’ll say, hey, who here can sometimes regret that they took too long to do a difficult thing? And most people go, yep, yep, yep.

John Jantsch (02:54.766)

Yeah. You know, I’ve, I’ve actually been in business 30 years. And so a couple of things I’ve learned over the years is every now and then you like go through that fear and you do the thing. And actually what happened was way less worse than you thought it was going to be right. And you, start banking that, but then there are also been times when I’ve paused and that was the right thing to do too. So how do you kind of like, how do you differentiate between fear-based procrastination and a strategic pause?

Margie Warrell (03:24.198)

Yeah, well, I think a pause can be very wise. That is just before plowing forward, stepping back, just re-grounding for a moment in like, okay, what’s going on here? Where are my emotions getting away with me? And I think recognizing there’s a difference between being brave and courageous and being reckless and foolhardy and impulsive and reactive.

I’m talking about considered action. And I think what you’re saying is that sometimes procrastination, but I would call it not procrastination. You’re not, know, oh, it’s all too hard. It’s actually saying, I’m just gonna just stop for a moment and consider things thoughtfully. I’m gonna try and get the emotions out of this. And as objectively as I can, think through the pros and cons short term and

far term of different courses of action and align with my values. What feels right for me? What has integrity here? What aligns with the kind of person, leader, business owner I want to be? Okay, now I’m going to move forward. And so there is a distinct difference. And I think practicing a pause is a lot of power in a pause. And I actually think that when we can stop the busy doing, doing, doing,

John Jantsch (04:46.296)

Yeah, yeah.

Margie Warrell (04:51.072)

and reconnect to who we’re being, which let’s face it, a lot of business owners really do. It actually high grades the actions we take. It’s like, ah, this is what I need to do. It actually can help us be way more effective than just sometimes scurrying furiously and going in circles.

John Jantsch (05:08.327)

So I’m going to probably wade into dangerous territory here. We’re going to talk about courage, you’re right. Is there a difference in this gap, real or perceived, between men and women? I’m a white male born in America. I think I’m entitled to everything. So why would I have imposter syndrome, right? I’m being somewhat facetious, but not.

Margie Warrell (05:11.774)

Okay, let’s go. Let’s go. And we’re talking about courage.

you

Margie Warrell (05:24.008)

Yes.

John Jantsch (05:37.038)

Is it much harder, say, for a woman to particularly, or somebody who doesn’t have the advantages that feels like that imposter syndrome is because they’re like, do I belong here?

Margie Warrell (05:51.838)

Yes, there is absolutely a difference, gendered difference in our experience of our circumstances, of ourselves, of our ability to navigate risk, what might feel risky. And let me just start by saying that this concept of courage, one, yes, it’s a trait. Some people naturally come out of the womb with just a higher tolerance for risk.

John Jantsch (06:09.934)

Mm-hmm.

Margie Warrell (06:20.464)

than others. And yes, there’s even there’s a gender element to that too. You know, I think of my sons like, Mom, look, no hands riding their bike down a hill and my daughter never did that. But yes, I mean, I’m generalizing, but I think there’s some truth to that. Men like sticking out at high adrenaline activities more so than women. So I think part of that might be nature, part of it nurture, we’re not going to debate that. But recognizing courage isn’t just choosing to take action in the presence of fear.

It is also the management of our fear. And often we have more fear than we need to have. So we have this magnified perception of risk. I could never do that. my God, that would be just terrifying. And actually you can do it. And it’s as only as terrifying as you’re making it to be like to start a business, to expand into a new market, to…

John Jantsch (06:55.926)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (07:07.79)

you

Margie Warrell (07:12.34)

hold someone accountable, et cetera. And as you said before, sometimes we lay awake in bed, I’ll let this person go, I gotta hold them accountable. And then we do it, go, it wasn’t that hard, I should have just done it. But for women, and speaking as a woman, and I grew up in Australia, where I think there’s also a cultural difference in Australia as well to the USA, but I think women, partially because of our social conditioning, do struggle more with self-doubt.

Do second guess themselves more. not often not feel as confident to put themselves out there to just try something and wing it. I’ve seen a lot of men going, hey, let’s just try this. I don’t know quite what I’m doing, but I’ll just wing it and I’ll fumble through and I’ll mess up a few times. And when I do, I’ll just go, yeah, whatever, learn something, move on. Women, we ruminate, we second guess, we beat ourselves up when we don’t do things perfectly.

John Jantsch (07:40.94)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (07:57.846)

you

John Jantsch (08:06.562)

Well, or let’s let’s be honest, sometimes you don’t get a second chance. You know, where is just what you said, you know, so there’s this fear of like, can’t screw up.

Margie Warrell (08:11.497)

and s-

Margie Warrell (08:15.816)

Yeah, and that’s true. Women are judged more harshly when they don’t get things right. You know, we know with the glass cliff phenomena, etc. But I also think as women, we can sometimes unwittingly internalize misogyny. Like we are biased against ourselves. We judge ourselves more harshly. We also judge other women more harshly. This is actually backed by a lot of data. Women are harder on other women.

John Jantsch (08:36.994)

Interesting.

Margie Warrell (08:45.542)

So there was a great experiment out of Columbia, the Heidi Howard experiment, where they were looking at the CVs, they were exactly the same. And some of them were titled Heidi and some of them were titled Howard, exact same words. And when people were looking at it, would you want to employ this one or this one? And they were described as being ambitious and competitive. When it was Howard, like, yeah, he sounds like a good guy to have on the team. When it was Heidi, it’s like, I don’t want to have her, ambitious and competitive. So just recognizing we can be hard on ourselves.

And so I think I have done a lot of work with women, business owners, women leaders, entrepreneurs over the years. And I wrote about this in my prior book called, You’ve Got This. I’ve had to say so many times, you’ve got this, go for it, back yourself, take the risk. Don’t wait until you know exactly what you’re doing. Do not wait until you are 100 % confident, just do it and give yourself permission to figure it out as you go along.

And I really have to, I don’t have to say that as much to men.

John Jantsch (09:46.594)

Yeah, yeah. Well, I’m glad we went there. Obviously, that was a little off topic. No, no, no, no.

Margie Warrell (09:49.376)

And that’s not critical, by the way, that is not critical of men. I’m often like, just do more of what he does because hey, it’s working for him.

John Jantsch (09:58.476)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so let me, let me, let me go straight to a topic I hear all the time. I mean, very specific, courage gap. I work with a lot of marketing consultants, marketing agencies. We, do training, we license our methodologies to them. And one of the things I have to work on the most right from the beginning is getting them to understand they need to raise their prices. and that’s one that a lot of businesses, you know, they sit in front of a client and they’re like, will they

Amy, can I say this? And sometimes I just say, look, just do it. Just like next time you have a sale is called double your price and just say it and see what happens. Like what could happen, right? They could say no, or they, or you got a really high paying client and boy do they struggle.

Margie Warrell (10:43.328)

Do you notice a gender difference?

John Jantsch (10:45.326)

Not as much as you’d think, actually, in that. But again, and we do, mean, we probably, at least 50 % of the folks that join our program are women. And so I don’t see that so much, but they all undercharge. And there’s really, and I think it’s, goes to this, I, I don’t even think it’s like, will I get rejected? It’s, am I worth it? So how do you get through that gap?

Margie Warrell (10:52.448)

Okay, okay, that’s good.

Margie Warrell (11:16.8)

Yeah. So am I worth it? think it’s such a big question to ask ourselves. And what is my worth? What is my value? And am I going to ask more than the market can bear? And I’m like, well, the only way you find that out is by risking asking for more than the market can bear. And you’re like, okay, well, they didn’t, you know, they weren’t willing to pay 50K. Okay. Well, how’s 40? You know, but if you’re asking 20, then you’re not going to get 30 or 40. So, but I do think being willing to ask

John Jantsch (11:23.416)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:41.134)

Right, right, right.

Margie Warrell (11:45.376)

for what you really think you’re worth. And being clear here too, what is this commercially worth to them? Because often we think about, am I worth $30,000? Well, I’m like, man, if the outcomes people get, I do a lot of work with CEOs and C-suite leaders. I’m like, if working with me as a coach could increase your bottom line by half a million bucks or a million or 5 million, or avoid you making a mistake that could cost you

John Jantsch (11:52.716)

Yeah. Right.

Margie Warrell (12:14.97)

way more than that, then man, you know, yeah, that’s worth 50k. So I think, you know, making sure you’re thinking about not in terms of what you think you’re worth, but what is this worth to them too?

John Jantsch (12:18.412)

Yeah,

John Jantsch (12:24.6)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I have used that to really give people a posture too, is really if you’re going back and reviewing results and you can actually say, I doubled their business. You know, what am I only asking X for? You know, it really gets a lot easier, you know, with that data. Do you have some habits, you talk about courage muscles. Do you have some habits or daily exercises that you really seem to work to help people build that courage muscle?

Margie Warrell (12:52.092)

Yeah, well, I think firstly is doing more of whatever helps you bring your best bravest self to whatever challenges and whatever, you know, goals that you’ve got. And I think that can cross over multiple realms. I think of it as physical, mental, emotional and spiritual in terms of what is it that helps you physically have the energy so that you’re not exhausted because it’s hard to climb a mountain and be brave if you’re just exhausted mentally.

Are you focused on the highest leverage things? Or are you overwhelmed? You don’t even know which way to look. So that is crucial. Emotionally, what is it that helps you just process through the stress that you’ve got on and navigate some of those emotions that actually get in the way of you doing the very things you could do? And I think self-doubt is a really big one. And so, for me, I start my day every day with

John Jantsch (13:43.864)

Mm-hmm.

Margie Warrell (13:49.042)

some exercise, I read something, I write down what are my number one, my top three to five goals I want to get done today and who is it I need to be today. And for me at a spiritual level, and I say that without being religious or anything like that, just being, what is it that I feel is going to make the biggest mark and it’s going to make the biggest impact for those I’m here to serve today?

that aligns with my core values and what gives me a sense of purpose and meaning. And so I think all of those things when we’re of regularly doing small little things like those daily habits, whether it’s journaling and it’s exercising, connecting in with people that can hold you to account and bring out your vest, putting some guard rails around those who don’t, those small little things. But a question I often ask myself is what would I do if I was being brave today?

And it’s like, you know what? I would reach out to John and I would say, Hey John, Hey, let’s have coffee, you know, or Hey John, you know, can I be on your podcast? Not that that’s how this came to be, but, but, but put yourself out there. Like ask yourself, what would I do to day if I was being brave? And then do that very thing that comes to mind because courage is a muscle. have to put in the reps.

John Jantsch (15:04.846)

All I’m going to put you in coaching mode here. I am a salesperson and I’m going to call on what could be the biggest account, you know, of my life. And I’m really afraid of getting rejected. How would you help me reframe?

Margie Warrell (15:19.424)

beautiful one. I would start with principle one in the courage gap. Focus on what you want and not on what you fear. So if you’re terrified of being rejected, my gosh, I hope I make this. what if I don’t? my gosh, it’s gonna be so, I’ll feel terrible. But you’re putting all your energy into the outcome you don’t want. It’s like praying for what you don’t want to happen. And what you focus on expands. So I would be like one, what does success look like? Visualize

John Jantsch (15:21.901)

You

John Jantsch (15:29.614)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (15:39.758)

Right, right,

Margie Warrell (15:49.51)

the best possible outcome. I walk out of there, I’ve landed it. And why is that great? Well, not only because it’s good for you, but how is this serve them? So make sure it’s not just about you. But how is this in service of something bigger than just you? Yeah, you’re great to get the commission, great to get the contract, great for whatever comes through it. But also focus on why is this good, not just for you, but for them? So focus on that win-win and what is your highest intention here? Yeah, you want to get it, but not just for your sake.

John Jantsch (16:00.814)

Alright.

Margie Warrell (16:19.614)

And I think just getting that real clarity of your positive outcome, because if you are not committed and clear in the positive outcome you wanna create, fear is gonna fill the void. And so your commitment to a positive outcome has to exceed your fear of a negative outcome. And if all you’re doing is going, I’m terrified, I’m gonna be rejected. I’m like, stop. I would even have someone write it down. Write down what does wild success look like going into this meeting? Write down.

why this is good, not just for you, but why is this good for them? What is the value that you want to bring? Write down, what is the mindset, the belief that I need to operate from? That I have everything it takes, that I’m fully worthy and deserving, and why not me? Because if it’s not me, it’s going to be John. So why not me? And then ground yourself in the values that define who you want to be and go into that from that place of being worthy, of having integrity.

being brave, of being generous, of being someone that makes others’ lives better. And then I would finally say, shift your posture. Take a big deep breath, breathe in courage, breathe out fear, and stand tall, hold your shoulders back, because our physiology impacts our psychology.

John Jantsch (17:36.686)

So there’s one of the things I’ve noticed this first quarter, maybe we’re turning the corner, I hope so, but there’s a lot of fear based just in unknown right now, geopolitical things, economic things, and that has a tendency to make people sort of freeze. How do get people through the unknown? You know, it’s like, well, I don’t know what’s going to happen, so how do I courageously

Margie Warrell (18:03.936)

Yeah, and when there is a lot of uncertainty, it innately triggers anxiety because we all like certainty. Our brains are wired to make plans. Yeah, to make plans on a future that we can predict with some level of confidence. And right now people go, I don’t know how much confidence I have in my prediction abilities, right? The future has got a lot of unknowns. It’s very volatile. It’s very unpredictable. But here’s what I say to people all the time.

John Jantsch (18:12.46)

Hey change, that’s the only thing we hate.

Margie Warrell (18:33.318)

always been uncertainty, there will always be uncertainty. And if you are waiting for certainty before you make a move, you’re going to get left behind. And you’re going to be in the dust of those who are taking action amid the unknowns. But this isn’t about being reckless. It’s about going, what’s my best guess here? How do I manage potential downsides? I’m not betting the family farm on a racehorse, but I’m going, okay, let me take a few steps forward here.

quickly reassess, this working, not working? What am I learning? And shorten those learning cycles. Because as they say in battle, it is safer to run left or right in the fog of battle in gunfire than it is to stand still. Because when you’re standing still, you’re not getting any information. You’re not getting any feedback. But when you’re in motion, okay, you know, this is working, this isn’t working. You’re getting something that’s going to put you in a better position.

as there is more certainty over time. So to anyone listening to this and you’re holding back, you’re like, do I, don’t I? It doesn’t have to be all or nothing. Sometimes it can be incremental, but what’s something you can do today that’s moving you forward?

John Jantsch (19:45.12)

Awesome. Well, Margie, I appreciate you stopping by the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there someplace you’d invite people to connect with you and obviously find out more about the Courage Camp?

Margie Warrell (19:54.258)

Yeah, thanks, John. Well, you can head over to my website, margieworal.com and the courage gap. I have a whole page on there that in a video, et cetera, tells you about it, but you can also get it on Amazon and everywhere good books are sold. And I also encourage people to connect with me on LinkedIn and Insta and social media. I’m everywhere under my name.

John Jantsch (20:13.678)

All right, awesome. Again, appreciate you. Stop by. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Margie Warrell (20:18.14)

Awesome, thanks John.

TL;DR: What’s the Best Marketing Program for You?

Choosing the Right Marketing Practice Growth Program: A Clear Guide to Types, Fit, and Costs

Choosing the Right Marketing Practice Growth Program: A Clear Guide to Types, Fit, and Costs written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Table of Contents

Why Consider a Marketing Leadership Program? (And Do You Really Need One?)

Types of Marketing Programs for Consultants & Agencies

Tactical Skills Courses for Marketing Consultants:

Entry-Level “Business Foundations” Programs:

Multi-Day Intensive Workshops:

License-Based Certification Programs:

Partner/Reseller Programs (Software Ecosystems):

Masterminds & Agency Accelerators:

Choose the Right Marketing Program Based on Your Business Goals

Goal: “I want to get better at a specific skill.”

Goal: “I want to transition from corporate to starting my own consultancy.”

Goal: “I want to move from project-based work to strategy-led retainers.”

Goal: “I want to scale my agency past $1M in revenue.”

Goal: “I want to become a fractional CMO with a few high-ticket clients.”

Making Your Decision: Which Marketing Training Program is right for you?

Choose the Right Marketing Certification for Long-Term Growth

As a marketing agency owner or fractional CMO, you know the importance of staying ahead – not just in tactics, but in how you run and grow your marketing business.

You might be considering a marketing certification for consultants or a fractional CMO training program to sharpen your skills, differentiate your services, and build recurring revenue

But with so many “courses,” “certifications,” and “accelerators” out there, it’s easy to feel overwhelmed. How do you know which program is right for your goals, and what kind of investment makes sense? In this article, we’ll answer those questions with the transparency you deserve.

The key is finding a marketing agency training program that aligns with your business goals. Whether you’re looking for a quick credential or a comprehensive system to transform your agency, this guide will break down your options in a clear, skimmable way.

We’ll break down the types of programs available, who they’re best for, and typical cost ranges so you can make an informed choice. Consider this a no-nonsense guide to help you find the best fit for your needs.

In a rush? Below you’ll find a handy comparison of marketing leadership certification types, by format, support, and price.

TL;DR: What’s the Best Marketing Program for You?

To make it easier to scan, here’s a comparison table summarizing these program types, their formats, support levels, and typical price ranges:

Program Type	Format and Content	Support Level	Typical Pricing
Tactical Skills Courses	Self-paced online videos or short workshops focusing on one skill (SEO, ads, etc.)	Low – mostly DIY learning (maybe forums or basic Q&A)	Free – $500 (many free tool certifications; paid courses usually under a few hundred) business.com
Entry-Level Foundation Programs	Multi-week online course or group coaching for new freelancers/consultants (covers business setup, pricing, basic marketing)	Moderate – group calls, community of peers, templates for basics	~$500 – $3,000 (depending on program length and mentorship provided)
Multi-Day Intensive Workshops	2–5 day intensive (virtual or in-person) on strategy or specific advanced topic; often interactive	High during event – live coaching, interactive exercises; some offer post-workshop community	~$5,000 – $10,000 (short local classes on low end; premium multi-day bootcamps on high end)
License/Certification Programs	Comprehensive training (often weeks or an intensive kickoff) in a proprietary system; includes frameworks, tools/templates, and ongoing training	High – initial deep-dive training + ongoing support (coaching calls, updates) and private network of fellow licensees	~$5,000 – $15,000 (one-time or annual) business.com for full system and certification (significant, but comes with a ready-made methodology and assets)
Partner/Reseller Programs	Training focused on a specific software/platform; you become a certified partner/reseller of that product	Moderate – support from vendor (sales materials, tech support); peer partner forums	Free or low cost to join, but requires investment in the platform (e.g. buying software licenses, which might be $300+/mo or meeting sales quotas to remain active)
Masterminds Accelerator Done For You	Ongoing program (6–12+ months, often renewable yearly) with group coaching, mastermind meetings, and sometimes live retreats	Very High – frequent coaching, peer accountability, sometimes 1:1 mentorship; access to an exclusive network of successful peers	$10,000 – $50,000+ per year (significant investment for mature businesses ready to scale) businessbuildercamp.com

(Note: These price ranges are broad averages. A “course” could be a $20 Udemy special or a $1,000 professional course; a big-name mastermind might run even above the ranges shown. Always check what’s included and the duration when comparing costs.)

As you can see, each type of program serves a different purpose. The best choice depends on the problem you’re trying to solve or the goal you’re aiming for. In the next section, we’ll map common goals to the program type that usually fits best. Find the scenario that sounds like you, and see which option might be your perfect match.

Why Consider a Marketing Leadership Program? (And Do You Really Need One?)

Running a marketing agency or consultancy is hard. You’re juggling client deliverables, trying to stand out from competitors, and aiming to create steady, predictable income. It’s no wonder many agency owners seek out marketing business training or certifications to gain an edge. Here are a few common reasons you might be exploring these programs:

You want a proven system – Maybe you feel your agency’s processes are all over the place. A good training program—especially one rooted in a strategy-first can streamline your agency’s operations. These marketing training programs for agencies often include templates, tools, and systems you can use immediately.
You want to scale and build recurring revenue – Project work and one-off engagements make it tough to forecast income. The right program can show you how to package retainer offers or ongoing strategy services, creating stable monthly revenue.
You need to differentiate your agency – In a crowded market, having a certification or unique methodology can set you apart. It signals to clients that you follow a reputable, established approach (not just winging it).
You’re looking for credibility and confidence – Perhaps you’ve primarily executed marketing campaigns and now you’re moving into a leadership role (as an agency CEO or fractional CMO). A marketing leadership certification can boost your confidence and authority to engage higher-value clients as a true strategic advisor.
You don’t want to “go it alone” – Being a solo consultant or small agency owner can be isolating. Many programs offer community, coaching, or mentorship, so you can learn from peers and experts instead of figuring everything out by yourself.

Honest insight: You can succeed without any formal certification – plenty of agencies grow through trial and error. But a structured marketing consultant training program can dramatically shortcut your learning curve. Rather than spending years cobbling together processes, you could adopt a ready-made system in a matter of weeks. The result? Saved time, fewer mistakes, and potentially faster growth and ROI.

If any of those reasons resonate with you, it’s worth examining the different marketing agency certification and training options available. Not all programs are created equal – and the most expensive or prestigious option isn’t necessarily the best for your business. In the next sections, we’ll break down the main types of programs and what to expect from each.

Types of Marketing Programs for Consultants & Agencies

Not all marketing training or growth programs are created equal. Some are as simple as a self-paced online course you can knock out in a weekend; others are high-ticket masterminds that require serious commitment (and cash). Here are some common program types you’ll come across, along with what they generally involve:

Tactical Skills Courses for Marketing Consultants:

Focused courses on specific marketing skills (SEO, Google Ads, email marketing, etc.). Usually, on-demand video lessons or workshops teaching you how to do a particular thing. Little to no personalized support beyond maybe a forum or basic Q&A. Great for picking up a new skill or certification quickly.

Cost: often low (many are free or under a few hundred dollars). Check out Google’s Marketing Trainings or LinkedIn Learning.

Entry-Level “Business Foundations” Programs:

Introductory programs for freelancers or new solo-agency owners covering business basics. They might teach you how to package your services, set your pricing, find your first clients, and avoid common newbie mistakes. Format can be a short cohort-based course or coaching group. Support is moderate (group calls or an online community).

Cost: ranges widely from a few hundred to a few thousand dollars depending on depth (some may start around $500 and go up to a few thousand dollars for multi-week coaching).

Multi-Day Intensive Workshops:

Short-term, immersive trainings (often 2–5 days) that dive into strategy and best practices, usually with a live or in-person component. These often include interactive sessions and networking with peers. Support is high during the event (hands-on guidance, hot seats, etc.), and sometimes you get access to a community or follow-up resources for accountability.

Cost: typically mid-range; many intensives run $5,000–$10,000 depending on the length and prestige of the facilitator (some local workshops might be on the lower end, while well-known strategy bootcamps can be several thousands).

License-Based Certification Programs:

Comprehensive programs that teach you a proven system or methodology for marketing (often a strategy-first approach) and license you to use it with your clients. These usually include extensive training (sometimes an initial intensive or cohort), libraries of tools and templates, and ongoing support like coaching calls or a private network of fellow certified professionals. It’s like getting a business-in-a-box for your consultancy: you learn the framework, get materials to implement it, and often earn an official certification.

Cost: higher investment, reflecting the depth – commonly $5,000 to $15,000 for the program business.com (some are one-time fees, others have annual licensing fees or revenue share models). In return, you gain a repeatable framework to deliver services, plus continued resources and community.

Partner/Reseller Programs (Software Ecosystems):

These programs affiliate you with a software or platform (for example, a CRM, marketing automation tool, or analytics software). They typically involve training on the platform and how to sell or service it, and you might get a “partner” or reseller status. The format often includes online training modules and a partner community; support comes from the vendor (account managers, sales resources, etc.).

Cost: usually low or no direct fee to join – the trade-off is you’re expected to promote that company’s software. Often your cost is the purchase of the software itself (which you might resell to clients) or meeting a sales quota. In other words, the platform training might be free, but you’ll incur expenses in subscription fees or the time/effort to sell it. This path can create a nice recurring revenue stream (commissions or margin on software subscriptions) if you plan to build your services tightly around a particular tool.

Masterminds & Agency Accelerators:

High-touch growth programs for established agencies or consultants. These are typically group coaching programs or mastermind groups aimed at scaling up your business (common goals: hitting $1M+ revenue, building your team, improving profitability, etc.). Format often includes regular coaching calls (with a mentor who’s been there, done that), peer mastermind sessions, and sometimes in-person retreats or events. Support level is very high – you get mentorship, accountability, and a network of other high-performing peers.

Cost: significant – often five-figure annual investments. Many quality agency mastermind programs charge on the order of $10,000 to $50,000 per year (or more for top-tier circles). These are not for beginners; they’re for when you’re ready to pour fuel on the fire and can justify a sizable investment in exchange for potentially big leaps in growth.

Choose the Right Marketing Program Based on Your Business Goals

Choosing a Marketing Program Based on Your Goal

It’s time to get personal. Think about what you really want to achieve at this stage in your business or career. Are you looking to sharpen a specific skill set? Launch your own consultancy? Completely overhaul your agency’s business model? Different goals call for different solutions. Let’s explore a few typical scenarios and recommend the program type that tends to be the best fit for each, along with what to expect and key pros and cons.

Goal: “I want to get better at a specific skill.”

Scenario: You’re doing consulting or running an agency and want to sharpen one skill – like SEO, Google Ads, or copywriting – without overhauling your business.

Program: Tactical Skills Courses or Certifications

What to Expect: On-demand video lessons or short workshops that teach one topic step by step. Limited support – maybe forums or weekly Q&A.

Investment: Usually free to a few hundred dollars. Time commitment is light (a few hours to a few weeks).

Pros: Affordable, focused, and flexible. Great for filling knowledge gaps fast.

Cons: Narrow scope. Little business guidance or long-term support.

Takeaway: For a single skills upgrade, skip the big programs. A targeted course or certification gets the job done quickly and cheaply.

Goal: “I want to transition from corporate to starting my own consultancy.”

Scenario: You’re leaving a corporate marketing role and want to start your own consultancy or solo agency. You have the marketing skills, but not the business-building know-how.

Program: Entry-Level Foundation Programs

What to Expect: These 4–12 week programs teach basics like packaging services, setting pricing, and finding clients. Includes video lessons, group coaching, templates, and community support.

Investment: ~$500–$3,000 depending on format and coaching.

Pros: Saves time and helps avoid early mistakes. Built-in support and templates fast-track setup.

Cons: Covers broad basics, not deep dives. Quality varies.

Takeaway: If you’re going out on your own, start with a program that teaches business fundamentals – not just marketing.

Goal: “I want to move from project-based work to strategy-led retainers.”

Scenario: You’re doing one-off projects and want to offer long-term strategic services instead.

Program: License-Based Certification Programs

What to Expect: Intensive training in a strategy framework, plus tools and templates for client delivery. Ongoing support through coaching calls and a private network.

Investment: ~$5,000–$15,000, plus possible licensing or renewal fees.

Pros: Provides a proven system and confidence to sell strategy retainers. Includes ongoing support and tools.

Cons: High upfront cost. Requires full commitment to the framework.

Takeaway: To move into strategy-first retainers, invest in a framework that gives you structure, tools, and support to reposition your services.

Goal: “I want to scale my agency past $1M in revenue.”

Scenario: You’ve built a stable agency and want help breaking through growth ceilings like hiring, positioning, or systems.

Program: Agency Masterminds or Accelerators

What to Expect: Includes coaching, mastermind calls, strategic playbooks, and live events. Emphasis is on scaling operations, team, and leadership – not tactics.

Investment: ~$10,000–$50,000/year. May require travel and 12-month commitment.

Pros: Offers mentorship and peer accountability. Helps fast-track decisions and avoid trial-and-error.

Cons: Requires time, money, and focus to implement. Fit depends on group quality and stage alignment.

Takeaway: For established agencies ready to scale, a mastermind or accelerator provides the strategic support and peer insight needed to grow faster and smarter.

Marketing Leadership as a Service (MLaaS)

Goal: “I want to become a fractional CMO with a few high-ticket clients.”

Scenario: You want to serve a small number of clients in a part-time, high-level strategic role – without managing a big team.

Program: Fractional CMO Coaching or Strategy Certification

What to Expect: Focus on packaging your offer, pricing retainer engagements, and leading strategy. Delivered via coaching, peer groups, or system-based certifications.

Investment: ~$5,000–$15,000 for certifications; ~$800–$1,000/month for coaching programs.

Pros: Helps position and sell premium strategic services. Often includes support, templates, and community.

Cons: Not easily scalable beyond your time. May require personal brand building and network leverage.

Takeaway: If your goal is fewer, higher-paying clients and deep strategic work, a focused program will help you build and sell a compelling fractional CMO offer.

VIDEO: Are You Ready to Be a Fractional CMO?

Making Your Decision: Which Marketing Training Program is right for you?

Choosing the right program comes down to matching your goal and stage with the program’s purpose:

If you have a single skills gap, take a course or get a specific certification (no need to over-invest).
If you’re just starting out on your own, build your business fundamentals with an entry-level program or community – getting those basics right will pay off for years.
If you need to level up your service offering, especially to incorporate strategy and get recurring revenue, a certification or licensing program that provides a proven system can be a game-changer.
If you’re already established and aiming higher, a mastermind/accelerator can provide the mentorship and peer group to break through growth plateaus.
And for those pursuing a fractional CMO model, ensure you have a strategic framework and support system in place – whether through a certification or a peer coaching group – to help you successfully navigate that niche.

Finally, remember that no program is a magic bullet. Your results will depend on your effort. The best program in the world won’t help if you don’t do the work, and even a mediocre program can yield value if you actively apply yourself and extract insights. Before plunking down money, get clear on what exactly you want to get out of it, and how you’ll hold yourself accountable to use what you learn.

Choose the Right Marketing Certification for Long-Term Growth

The landscape of marketing certifications and training programs for consultants, agency owners, and fractional CMOs is more diverse and more valuable than ever. Whether you’re looking to master a tactical skill, adopt a proven client delivery system, or join a high-level agency mastermind, there’s a training option designed to meet your goals.

As you evaluate your next step, start with clarity: What problem are you trying to solve? The best ROI doesn’t come from the most expensive program, it comes from choosing the right one based on your business stage, growth targets, and service model. From lightweight online marketing courses to full-scale strategy certifications, every program type serves a purpose

Lastly, be strategic with your education investments, just as you are with your business. When in doubt, lean towards programs that emphasize strategy, systems, and support/network – those elements tend to deliver enduring value. (That might be a tiny hint from our perspective, as we strongly believe in strategy-first growth and comprehensive support, given our own experience in this space.)

We hope this breakdown has helped clarify the options and trade-offs. By understanding what’s out there and assessing where you want to go, you’re well on your way to making a smart decision. Here’s to your growth – whether that means mastering a new skill, signing better clients, or hitting that next revenue milestone, the right program is out there waiting to help you make it happen. Good luck, and happy learning!

SEO Tactics That Actually Work in 2025

SEO Tactics That Actually Work in 2025 written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Prasanna Dhungel

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Prasanna Dhungel, co-founder and managing partner at Grow By Data. With decades of experience spanning marketing, tech, and SaaS, Prasanna brings sharp insights into the rapidly evolving landscape of search engine optimization—especially as AI transforms how users interact with search.

We explore the future of SEO in the age of Google AI, AI search results, and the zero-click search era. From adapting content strategy to optimizing for online visibility and brand performance, Prasanna breaks down how marketers can stay relevant, rank better, and actually get results in 2025 and beyond.

If you’re still using SEO playbooks from 2015, it’s time for an upgrade. Between AI-powered search results, changing user behaviors, and increased competition for attention, modern SEO demands a smarter, intent-driven, and more brand-conscious approach.

Key Takeaways:

SEO Isn’t Dead—It’s Evolved
With AI overviews and new SERP formats, traditional SEO has shifted. Businesses must rethink both organic search and paid search strategy to remain visible.
Zero Clicks Can Still Drive Value
Even without direct traffic, appearing in AI SEO and Google AI overview results can reinforce brand visibility and improve long-term recognition.
Content Needs Purpose
Brands should focus on content marketing that drives interaction—like quizzes and infographics—especially when top-of-funnel reach isn’t converting.
Focus on Keyword Intent
Prioritize high-intent search terms over broad awareness content. Think about what your audience is trying to solve, not just what they’re curious about.
Track Share of Voice
Traditional rankings aren’t enough. Monitor share of voice across search features like shopping, Reddit snippets, and AI panels to measure content performance more accurately.
Reddit Is the New Authority
Understand where your industry is being discussed and how your brand is represented. Participating in authentic conversations can influence both perception and rankings.
Optimize for AI Discovery
Use structured content like bullet points, product attributes, and schema to increase your chances of being picked up by Google AI and LLMs.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing Prasanna Dhungel
[00:53] How to Prepare for Changes in Search?
[05:06] Is Intent Driven Content the Way Forward?
[07:16] What Metrics Should We Be Tracking?
[10:39] Best Practices to Show Up in AIO
[16:20] Measuring ROI Without Attribution

More About Prasanna Dhungel:

Check out Prasanna Dhungel’s Website
Connect with Prasanna Dhungel on LinkedIn

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.676)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Prasanna Dungal. He is nearly two decades of experience building businesses in marketing, tech, healthcare, and SaaS. He’s a managing partner by Grow at Grow by Data. He holds a bachelor’s degree with honors from Cornell, a master’s in engineering from Princeton, and an MBA from Kellogg School of Management. means he paid a lot to get educated. He was born.

and raised in Kathmandu. Probably the first Kathmandu on the show today, but he now resides in Boston. So welcome to the show, Prasanna.

Prasanna Dhungel (00:40.91)

Thank you so much, John, for the nice introduction and I look forward to the conversation.

John Jantsch (00:45.392)

Yes, yes. So we’re going to talk basically about SEO today. And I know that’s a lot of the work that you do at Grow by Data. A lot of change, know, AI, other things going on, a lot of, I mean, you even see people on LinkedIn saying SEO is dead. So how are you telling people they need to prepare today for changes in traditional search results?

Prasanna Dhungel (01:12.622)

Yeah, that’s a very hot, popular topic for folks in source, growth marketing, marketing altogether. You’re right. I don’t think SEO is dead. I think it has evolved. In fact, it’s the era of Google AI and just chats and all of these, in fact, has provided further impetus, in my mind, to storage.

Because the way I like to think about search is you’re asking a question and Google is answering today, but then new sources are answering. And you’re trying to understand how the answers are being presented, whether it be visually. Like in retail, for example, we like to say that the search result page is increasingly becoming like the Amazon results page, with a lot of product pictures being visible, your Reddit being visible, many times like, you

John Jantsch (02:06.372)

Yeah.

Prasanna Dhungel (02:12.236)

over the last year or so, videos and so on. So I think search has evolved. You have to look at paid search and traditional SEO in a new lens. And in fact, it’s created, I mean, there’s just a lot of interest to capture that. And I think the ones that are really going to win are going to be ahead versus be stuck in his or her old ways. But I think there’s a opportunity ahead.

John Jantsch (02:41.486)

Well, the one thing that I think is leading a lot of people to saying, I mean, people are seeing their organic traffic dropping. mean, I think that’s reality, but then they’re also go to the Google homepage or search page and they see the AI results or AI overview that comes there. And you know, there are many people that they get their answer and off they go. Right. So the so-called zero click, you know, era I think has really got a lot of people worried that, you know, all the effort they spent on producing content.

over the years is now going to go away.

Prasanna Dhungel (03:14.444)

That’s a fair concern. And the concern is Google is answering the question right on the sort page versus now letting us click and go into the page. So that remains. The way that we will have to see how that evolves, the next few months or the next year. Some are, in fact, saying it’s because of that that

John Jantsch (03:23.544)

Right. Right.

Prasanna Dhungel (03:42.264)

Folks like us are moving to newer channels to discover, right? But that said, folks are also using it as an opportunity for brand building, which is when you get picked up by these zero click results, you are in fact reminded, like you’re seeing a TV ad almost, and you’re remembering a brand, and then ultimately you remember that to make a purchase. So…

That’s one way that I know brands are thinking about it. But that said, I think just relying on that is challenging. Perhaps top of awareness studies keywords have had fewer clicks, or if any. And then increasingly, know source marketers are focusing on other types of content which require someone to click and go in. But the other way I like to actually show the positive is

If you are visible on Google’s zero source clicks, it could also indicate that you could be more friendlier to LLMs. And so you could get picked up by some of the chat engines. And so if you’re not getting picked up at all, I think that’s a problem. You want to get picked up. can obviously, you can rely on it alone. You have to use other sources, but you had to get picked up so that you also get picked up in the other sources.

John Jantsch (04:54.02)

Mm-hmm.

Prasanna Dhungel (05:09.228)

which in fact are almost like zero clicks or just even on the chat. That’s how I think about it.

John Jantsch (05:16.494)

So people are, mean, content is, you mentioned content and I want to go to types of content. One of the bits of advice I’m hearing from a lot of folks is this idea of a lot of information content, the how-to type of stuff is really what Google is kind of consuming in the AI overviews. But if somebody is actually searching to solve something or searching for a specific type of…

company, you know, those high intent searches are still there and happening. Would that suggest that we should be moving our content very much to much more intent driven content as opposed to kind of that top of the funnel, you know, show up in search content?

Prasanna Dhungel (06:04.334)

So I think it depends, right? If you believe that the top of the funnel content serves what we are trying to find very well, right? Then it may not be worth being the ninth or the tenth brand out there to capture that. There’s diminishing return, right? However, if you feel like your point of view is very strong, then why not create the brand in the first place? It’s about brand touch point.

John Jantsch (06:15.172)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (06:33.166)

Mm-hmm.

Prasanna Dhungel (06:33.806)

But assuming that’s not the case, you are right. I do think then, you know, trying to go in and capture demand, you know, in the middle of the funnel or lower funnel, you know, and then really trying to draw someone searching from those is also a wise strategy that I know many have followed. Like we were talking to a large financial services client recently, and what they were telling me is, hey, you know, we’ve, we, I mean, we don’t see the ROI of really investing in top of the funnel content anymore.

John Jantsch (06:59.928)

Mm-hmm.

Prasanna Dhungel (07:03.148)

because we’re not getting folks to come to our site. And many times I talk about the brand being mentioned on top of the funnel, but sometimes the brand isn’t even mentioned. And so it even defeats the purpose of presenting your brand in front of someone. And so these guys were, in fact, creating newer types of content like quizzes or infographics or more deeper content that needs the user to interact to get the answer. And that’s where they were gravitating towards. And I’m actually seeing more and more brands do that.

John Jantsch (07:33.028)

Well, are there metrics, new metrics, different metrics that we should be tracking today to really understand how, although this AIO is kind of affecting our search.

Prasanna Dhungel (07:46.232)

We like to use share of voice as a metric to really track a brand’s visibility on Google, on Google AIO, on Batesource, what have you. And then we like to dissect it by different lines of business, by different intent, by different geographies, by different languages. So that’s the 50,000 foot metric that we use. But that said,

I do agree with you. think a question that you want to begin to answer is, OK, if AI results are a proxy to brand visibility, then how much brand searches are you getting? And is that rising midterm? Is a metric I think you should be tracking?

Like if you’re doing the right things, even if you’re not getting the click, are people remembering your brand? And not just the brand term, but brand plus. And then there may be a time lag. For example, you know, when I purchase something, it might be a few weeks out, it might be a few months out. Or am I seeing, you know, so one way to do this would be, you know, am I visible in these results, zero click results? And is that rising? And then after a few weeks out or so,

Is the amount of brand searches rising and is that compounding? I I think that’s one way I’ve known that brands are tracking that.

John Jantsch (09:19.856)

So break down share a voice just at, I’m sure that every client’s different, but you know, essentially how do you start measuring share a voice?

Prasanna Dhungel (09:26.958)

Sure, so I like to give the example of running shoes, right? So imagine I am searching for running shoes, running shoes, men’s, women’s, and so on. So when you search for that keyword or a group of keywords, you want to be searching not just once, but over time, across different geographies, across different devices, across different times of the day, so you have enough sample.

And what you have to do is, how often is your brand mentioned on the search page? So for example, on shopping ads, how often is Nike visible versus Adidas or Hoka? On your classic blue links, how often is Nike visible? On virtual listings, which is a free product listing from Google, how often is it? So if you imagine real estate on the page and there’s 1,000 spots in there,

and the spots are consumed by videos, shopping, and organic, and even Reddit and so on. How often is Nike’s domain visible? Or Nike mentioned, you just kind of say it’s visible maybe 300 times over your sample size. Then we like to say you have a 30 % share of voice. And you might care to understand how that varies by Spanish versus English.

New York versus Toronto and so on. So you slice it but at the highest level it’s how often are you visible in that real state.

John Jantsch (11:01.934)

So in this AI overview world, the zero click world, are there things that you are helping brands try to understand? Like, obviously we want to show up there, but is there an intentional approach or are there best practices to make sure that your brand is showing up there? Or is it simply a matter of if you’re showing up high in search anyway, for some of those terms, you’re probably going to show up in the results? Or is there a way to get your content intentionally to show up in

the AI overviews.

Prasanna Dhungel (11:32.856)

Sure. So what we do is we dissect what are the sorb elements visible within AIO, right? So you have, like in retail, you have maps sometimes show up on the AIO results. Sometimes you have a description. Sometimes you have the product that shows up, you know, like you’re trying to discover products. So the first thing to do is really try to understand, deconstruct AIO, what exactly is visible by different types of source terms. You know, so sometimes if you are

John Jantsch (11:39.236)

Mm-hmm.

Prasanna Dhungel (12:02.254)

trying to, if you source for a bottom of the funnel type of a question, if AIO does show up, it’s a different mix versus on the top. So that’s one. The second is we look at whose brand is being mentioned on each of these sort elements. Like for example, who is getting the free listings on running shoes? Which brand is it? And then we try to deconstruct, OK, the why.

And what we’ve seen is there’s a few elements to getting picked up on AIO. Sometimes the way the content is written, you know, in bullet forms versus free flow text, we’ve seen that that gets picked up. Many times for retail, we’ve seen that inclusion of attributes like GTIN, you know, and rich product attributes on the PDB page also helps you get picked up. Sometimes other attributes like reviews and ratings and pricing.

John Jantsch (12:51.556)

you

Prasanna Dhungel (13:00.61)

These other product dimensions, if it’s rich, then it gets picked up. So at a high level, think for your traditional text, having bullet forms and making it easier, understandable, having questions in there, not long content, that has gotten picked up, number one. For retail, it’s really rich product attributes on the PDP page. And making sure that if you’re not getting rejected by Google Merchant Center,

or if you’re not getting flagged by Google Merchant Center, then it’s likely to get linked. And then the classic techniques of being cited by credible sources, those are other signals we’ve seen.

John Jantsch (13:44.11)

So we’ve been talking a lot about the AI overviews, but if you scroll down pretty much any search these days, scroll down a little bit, some of the top organic results are being delivered from Reddit. And so, you know, know a lot of people are starting to pay attention to that and go, well, how do I get my stuff to rank on Reddit? What are you telling clients about their participation in Reddit? It is much different than say Facebook and LinkedIn in terms of the ecosystem there and the culture there.

so how are you advising folks to, to hopefully get some of their content or their, their answers, whatever it might be to show in Reddit.

Prasanna Dhungel (14:23.438)

Sure. we were, I’ll give you a live example. We were working with a large shoe company and the first question they were asking us is, is Reddit visible on the sorp for the questions that I, for the queries that I care to. And so we helped them understand how, what questions Reddit was visible on. And number two, we went into Reddit and then what we helped them understand is how they are portrayed.

John Jantsch (14:38.244)

Right.

Prasanna Dhungel (14:52.75)

you know, to folks like us, like, you know, if you’re trying to source for running shoes, who is very active, like who is active on Reddit? Is it Nike? Is it, you Hoka? Is it Adidas? And then how large of a community that Reddit thread has for say Nike running shoes or Nike running shoes. And so what we tell clients is first of all, try to understand where Reddit is visible. Number two, really try to understand your

your Reddit thread versus your competitors Reddit thread and is it one that you have a community manager running or is it just organic? And then the other thing we do is we’ve actually helped clients answer a bunch of questions on Reddit. One is we find that a lot of people are talking about pricing on Reddit. What does that sentiment look like? What does product quality look like?

John Jantsch (15:45.572)

Mm-hmm.

Prasanna Dhungel (15:51.778)

you know, and then how people are saying good or bad things about it. And so by giving that visibility, what we recommend, what we recommended to this client is you, I mean, they didn’t have a community manager and we said, you know, it’s an increasing channel. know, you get a lot of visibility. People are going there to understand what they like about your product. They’re giving ideas. And so we were recommending that they have a community manager who constantly analyzes and stays on top of it.

and then curates the experience. So you cannot just say whatever, but that said, remaining passive is also not a good idea. You want to have a point of view and sometimes there might be an opportunity to run an ad. When someone has a concern about the brand, then advertisement is a source of being on top of those that are looking at your brand. So you also have a strong point.

So these are some of the techniques that we have been telling clients.

John Jantsch (16:51.982)

So what kind of pushback are you getting on? And this is always the case, but we went through a period there where everybody was leaning on attribution. Like if you can’t prove that this got me a customer, then I don’t want to pay for it. And now we’re telling people you’ve got to be here and here and here. some of these places, a community manager, for example, is not a salesperson, right? They’re not going to create conversions. So how are you helping people kind of

Prasanna Dhungel (17:15.032)

Yes.

John Jantsch (17:21.276)

work through that ROI conversation when in some ways we’re talking about participating and engaging in ways that you can’t measure.

Prasanna Dhungel (17:31.34)

Right, so your question is, how are we helping clients think through the question of, if I put a dollar and the returns aren’t obvious, like a community manager, how should they think about it? And so the way we like to describe this is, if you use search as a proxy, then there is a certain amount of, the search volume is a proxy on demand for your service or product.

John Jantsch (17:41.08)

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Prasanna Dhungel (18:00.788)

And so, know, if what you’re being exposed to is a lot of Reddit in there, right. And then a certain percentage of them click through, you know, your classic CTR model there and they go in and it’s a highly uncurated, poor experience. Then you’re losing, right? So it sometimes is defense and sometimes it’s offense. So offense could be, you you put in a dollar and you get $3 back. Okay. But then.

defense is if you don’t have someone in there, it’s almost like insurance, right? If you don’t have a community manager, then your brand perception could be tarnished. And if you’re Rolex, as an example, and someone thrashes your band, and next year you want to raise prices, people are not going to pay $10,000. They actually already have an impression that Rolex is probably not $10,000, and you might want to get $1,000.

John Jantsch (18:32.196)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (18:39.832)

Yeah.

Prasanna Dhungel (18:58.774)

And the other part, in my mind, John, is think about the generation that is getting into Reddit. Some of the brands we work with, they have a slightly more older demographic. And they’re trying to recruit younger demographics to, in fact, purchase from them. And the younger demographic are going into these communities. And the first impression they have, if there is no impression or if the impression is bad, then you are

John Jantsch (19:11.533)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (19:20.483)

Yeah.

Prasanna Dhungel (19:28.294)

not going to get them on board. So I like to even say that brands have begun to think of this investment almost as defensive. It’s like a leaky funnel, right? If you don’t yet go to Home Depot and buy something to fix your faucet, then you’ll just keep leaking. That’s also a way that brands have in fact approached that question.

John Jantsch (19:30.232)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:39.736)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (19:49.412)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, makes sense.

John Jantsch (19:54.584)

Yeah. Well, awesome. Well, lots of changes, lots going on. I appreciate you stopping by the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there somewhere you’d invite people to connect with you and learn more about the work that you’re doing there?

Prasanna Dhungel (20:05.462)

Yeah, absolutely. So you can connect with me on LinkedIn, Prasanna Dhungyal. Or you can go to our website, growbydata.com, and you’ll find me on the executive team. You can find me on LinkedIn, on Twitter, PD277. Happy to be helpful. And this is a fast-changing work area and would love to be helpful and supportive.

John Jantsch (20:30.116)

Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into one of these days out there on the road.

Prasanna Dhungel (20:34.656)

Absolutely. Thank you so much,

Weekend Favs April 5th

Weekend Favs April 5th written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

My weekend blog post routine includes posting links to a handful of tools or great content I ran across during the week.

Mint.ai is an AI-driven advertising platform that integrates AI agents, data, and workflow automation to optimize processes in marketing and media.
Adzooma is an AI-powered platform that simplifies online advertising by managing and optimizing ads across multiple channels, including Google, Facebook, and Microsoft.
Trapica utilizes AI to automate and optimize ad campaigns, targeting the most relevant audiences and adjusting strategies in real-time to improve performance.

These are my weekend favs; I would love to hear about some of yours – Connect with me on Linkedin!

If you want to check out more Weekend Favs you can find them here.

The Future of Marketing Is More Human Than Ever

The Future of Marketing Is More Human Than Ever written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Carlos Gil

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Carlos Gil, global marketing leader, bestselling author of The End of Marketing, and Brand Evangelist at GetResponse. Carlos is known for his bold approach to digital marketing, particularly in how brands can rise above the noise in a world dominated by AI, social media, and content creation.

Carlos challenges the status quo with his core thesis: Marketing as we know it is dead. The future isn’t just about technology—it’s about reconnecting with people. As AI tools like ChatGPT reshape the landscape of content marketing and digital advertising, brands must refocus on what can’t be automated: human relationships. From employee advocacy to authentic storytelling, Carlos shares actionable strategies for creating a brand strategy that thrives in a tech-driven world while staying rooted in human connection.

Carlos Gil’s perspective is a timely reminder: in the race toward automation, don’t lose the human heart of your brand. The brands that will win in the future are the ones that embrace empathy, connection, and authentic communication—at scale.

Key Takeaways:

Marketing is evolving—not ending. Brands must adapt by becoming more authentic, relational, and human-centric.
AI in marketing is powerful, but limited. Tools like ChatGPT can support email marketing and content creation, but they can’t replace real brand relationships.
Employee advocacy beats influencer marketing. Instead of outsourcing trust, Carlos encourages companies to empower employees to become true brand evangelists.
Omni-channel marketing is essential. Businesses must diversify their presence across platforms while prioritizing ownership of their audience through email and direct communication.
The most effective marketing strategy? Human connection. Creating real value through stories, vulnerability, and engagement helps brands rise above algorithm-driven sameness.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing Carlos Gil
[02:23] Brands Need to Humanize
[07:46] AI and the Need for Human Relationships
[12:25] Communicating the Human Element of Your Brand
[15:49] Omni-channel Marketing

More About Carlos Gil:

Connect with Carlos Gil on LinkedIn
Read The End of Marketing: Humanizing Your Brand in the Age of Social Media by Carlos Gil

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.09)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Carlos Gill. He’s a global marketing leader and author. He’s a US brand evangelist at GetResponse with over a decade of experience helping brands thrive in the digital age. He’s also known for his bold results-driven strategies and insights on leveraging AI, social media, and email marketing to drive growth and engagement. Today we’re going to talk about his latest book,

The end of marketing, humanizing your brand in the age of social media. So Carlos, welcome to the show.

Carlos Gil (00:36.991)

It’s great to be here on the show, John. Thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (00:39.232)

So wait, marketing is over, it’s not just evolving? Like it’s the end? What do mean by the end?

Carlos Gil (00:45.635)

the end is just that look, you know, the first line, then the marketing, it’s real provocative, the title itself is intended to be a provocative, engaging title to real people in and the first line of the book, not to spoil it for anyone, because I hope you go out and buy it, but it’s marketing as we know it is dead, right? And like, that’s the caveat that as we know it, and I say this, because I myself being millennial, right? I’ve been around now for multiple decades and generations, I’ve been able to see

John Jantsch (00:47.477)

You

John Jantsch (00:53.72)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (01:05.699)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carlos Gil (01:14.079)

it’s kind of shift throughout my lifetime from once not having digital technology to having digital to having the web to now everywhere we turn, we’re seemingly connected and there’s this just friction between brands and consumers. And, I know we’re going to talk about the books. I don’t want to give too much away early on, but the whole premise of the end of marketing is that brands want to be able to rise above all the digital noise that’s existing today.

John Jantsch (01:15.918)

Mm-hmm.

Carlos Gil (01:42.377)

they need to become more human. And look, to be transparent with you, I wrote this book in 2019. It came out in 2019. The very end, this was before COVID. I then sat down and wrote the second edition during COVID in 2021, the second edition came out. And I have folks that reach out to me through social media, just about every single day, John. And they say like, wow, like, did you predict what was going to happen, especially with like the whole AI piece? Because I would say then the marketing speaks more so today.

John Jantsch (01:44.632)

Yes.

John Jantsch (01:48.302)

Hmm.

John Jantsch (02:05.752)

Yes.

Carlos Gil (02:10.335)

to a 2025 reader honestly than in 2019 when I wrote it.

John Jantsch (02:16.685)

You know, think though that that’s actually, mean, I’ve been around a little longer than you, uh, Carla said, so I’ve been doing this, uh, a little longer. And so I’ve seen these ups and bounds and I mean, people have kind of used this idea of the end of marketing numerous times because anytime something really changes, they’re like, Oh, the old way is dead. Um, so I, I, I, I 100 % agree. It’s changing faster than ever. This idea of, you know, all AI is creating.

more sameness and more noise than ever before. So touch a little bit more on this idea. I’ve been really preaching lately that I think branding or brands are going to become more important than ever. You use the word humanizing brands. How does a business need to be looking at that today?

Carlos Gil (03:06.803)

Look, when I wrote Dundee marketing, one of my inspirations behind the whole thesis, which is that if brands want to survive this AI apocalypse that we are like right now in, right? Whether you want to accept it not. Yes, it’s still the early days of AI, but what does that really mean? Like AI is evolving really fast. So early days of AI might mean that a year from now, like everything that you know about business is just completely flipped upside down on its head. So

John Jantsch (03:16.75)

Cheers.

Carlos Gil (03:35.453)

When I wrote this book, I started thinking about what’s the competitive advantage from a marketing standpoint for any business or any brand. And that’s relationships. And I know this having worked previously on the inside of brands, leading social media, having previously worked for LinkedIn, being a social network that you can’t really scale or automate relationships. Right? So when you think about what AI is able to do, yes, AI can

write copy for you a lot of the AI that we refer to as more so language models, such as chat GBT. So yes, AI can write website copy and social media copy and it can operate a lot faster than human being great. I love it. But at the end of the day, is it as effective as a human behind the controls? I think that’s that’s TBD. What I can tell you that AI cannot do is automate relationships between humans. That’s like a core theme of the

John Jantsch (04:32.162)

Mm-hmm.

Carlos Gil (04:33.427)

book. The core theme is just that like at the end of the day, whether you use technology to help you do your job or not, a relationship means means a lot, especially in this era that we’re in where I fully believe by 2030, the value of a relationship. I’m not talking about social media follower, I’m talking about real relationship being able to, you know, hop on a webcast, do something like this with you, connect people, sit down, have human to human interaction, there’s going to be an immense

John Jantsch (04:53.686)

Mm-hmm.

Carlos Gil (05:03.263)

premium on that experience. And for brands in order to stand out, you can’t automate that. So how do you stay competitive when you’re a multi billion dollar brand and you’re looking to stay competitive within your own category? Well, it’s simple, right? You’ve got influencers, right? That is one solution. But influencers, as I write in the marketing, they’re really just a band aid. They’re a temporary solution, right? You hire an influencer.

They promote your brand. see a little temporary bump in traffic to your website, right? It looks good. But when that influencer goes away, they take their following with them. So in order to sustain that success, you need to start making people the faces of your company. And ironically, the role that I’m doing now, what I’ve been doing with GetResponse for the last year, GetResponse being an email service provider that was created in the late 90s, is they brought me on board to serve in this brand evangelist role.

I really was that mean. So I wear multiple hats, right? Internally, I’m a marketing, you know, strategist, thought leader within the brand, but on the outside, I’m doing this, I’m on podcasts, I’m a company spokesperson, I’m speaking on behalf of the company at events. I just came back from South by Southwest, I was on the scene, creating video content. This what you’re kind of seeing in action through myself is honestly, John, like the perfect bow to put on my own book.

John Jantsch (06:01.004)

Mm-hmm.

Carlos Gil (06:30.163)

that I wrote the end of marketing because I’m living it, I’m doing it, I’m showing other organizations out there. This is how you humanize your brand through people. It’s not always hiring influencers, it’s having a really strong and effective employee advocacy strategy, it’s training your employees to really humanize your brand through their own content. And then it’s also going out and finding individuals that can embody your brand and bringing them within whether it’s hiring an influencer in house, right, to work for you for a year.

John Jantsch (06:46.52)

John Jantsch (06:58.541)

Mm-hmm.

Carlos Gil (06:59.475)

whether it’s hiring someone like myself to go out and create content on your behalf, it puts a human face and voice on the company. And I tell you what, this, I believe, is the new wave going forward for brand marketers and the smart ones that figure out that balance of how to still sell, how to still market, but doing it in a way that feels authentic. You’re doing it through a real human being. Those are the ones that are gonna stand out. Otherwise, I really believe you’re gonna start seeing a lot of companies

Start scaling back on social, start even scaling back their digital presence because, you’ve got AI that now is able to operate faster, move more lean, create content for you. And that in itself creates a real challenge for brand marketers.

John Jantsch (07:45.452)

You know, I’m seeing actually there’s, this whole kind of AI is going to replace people, you know, kind of a meme that that’s out there very wide. And, and there’s no question it’s replacing functions. but I actually had someone on the show the other day that has created it’s an AI tool. And they said that what it’s actually doing is they’re using AI to do a lot of, I don’t know, let’s call it grunt work, that, that people used to have to spend their time to do. And it’s actually freeing their people up to

to do more relationships and to spend more time, you know, just meeting with people, over lunch, you know, or whatever it, you know, it might be. And I think that that’s actually the way, the smart way that people are going to invest in their people is to not, to not look at this as like, we can, we can go down to two people now because we can have AI do all this. It’s like, no, we can actually re align or refocus what our people actually do that is going to, you know, establish this brand, you know, as a different, know, standout brand.

Carlos Gil (08:36.575)

100%.

Carlos Gil (08:43.263)

Yeah, look, 100 % I have a love hate relationship with AI. use AI throughout my day. But what I will say is that it’s very easy as a marketing professional to become reliant on AI to the point where it almost makes it hard for you to think for yourself. And that is free slope of all this technology, right? You become super reliant on it. And then chat GPT goes down. It’s like, oh my god, like, I forgot how to I forgot how to write. Right? Like,

John Jantsch (08:59.471)

It’s just

Carlos Gil (09:09.369)

It literally becomes like that. So what I always say is like, look, you need to find ways to make AI your trusted assistant. Historically, you have a marketing agency that you work with, you lean on them to write your social media ad copy, you lean on them to help you ideate like you have to build a relationship. You’re using chat GPT, right? You have to build a relationship with your chat GPT. There’s no other way around it. I have now spent a couple of years finessing and refining

John Jantsch (09:31.394)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Carlos Gil (09:37.203)

But what I will say is the way that I use AI helps me actually be much more creative. Because I know now that I have a trusted companion within Chad GBT that if I’m, for example, in an airport and an idea comes to my mind, I can speak into my phone and I can get real time feedback. Right? I can help, you know, ideate with the help of AI without having to call someone, without having to pay an agency. Right? So like there’s that aspect of it that I believe has it’s good.

John Jantsch (09:46.232)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (09:55.736)

Yeah. Yeah.

Carlos Gil (10:06.815)

But then there’s the other aspect of it that if you rely so much on AI to do all the heavy lifting, all the grunt work as you call it, or the menial tasks, now you are removing the human element out of things like copywriting or even writing an email or a text message. Like it’s crazy. I see people all the time now. I’m on airplanes a lot and they’re writing a text message and they go over to ChatGBT.

to almost like copy, edit the text and then they go back. It’s like, my goodness, like this is going to continue to create this friction as I like to call it between humans and technology. And it goes.

John Jantsch (10:37.038)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:45.566)

Imagine when we have an entire generation that that’s all they know.

Carlos Gil (10:49.821)

Well, like imagine what’s really scary is imagine you and I not even have to record a podcast because there’s so much content of you and there’s so much content in me over the years. The AI knows my face and my voice and it could just recreate this conversation. Like it exists right now. There’s AI conversational platforms that you can record 15 seconds of your voice and it will just record a podcast for you. It’s insane what it can do. And that’s great. We’re going to continue to see that.

John Jantsch (11:04.94)

Yeah, people are doing it. Yeah.

Carlos Gil (11:16.127)

I firmly believe that we’re entering an era where there’ll be bestselling books written by AI, top podcasts on Spotify that are created by AI. There’s gonna be new billionaires are created. There will be new billionaires created because of AI, because of systems. My whole point here though is don’t lose sight of human to human relationships. Like that will always outweigh

John Jantsch (11:22.822)

totally.

Carlos Gil (11:43.487)

what technology can do. And the reason for that is because, you know, this is like just old school business, right? It’s like, I’m going to speak right now that the Gen Zers out there, they’re listening or watching, like business has always been predicated based on who you like, trust and relate to. So if you like someone, you have a higher likelihood to do business with them. If you trust them, if you relate to them, you want to do business with people that you like, trust and relate to. And I’m sorry, in an AI driven world, where it’s really noisy,

John Jantsch (11:48.866)

Yes.

Carlos Gil (12:10.367)

Yes, it becomes challenging to sift through that noise. But inevitably, if you’re able to connect with people, IRL, or you’re able to connect with people online and kind of weed out the AI element of that relationship, like, yeah, man, it’s just old school business 101.

John Jantsch (12:28.238)

You know, a lot of times people, think everybody gets that, you know, that idea of be more human, be more human. But this sounds really silly, but I have a lot of people who are like, well, how do you do that? You know, how do you, how do you communicate that? And I, and I think the, the real thing that AI doesn’t do is it can’t make up a story that only I know, never will. Um, you know, right. So storytelling, uh, vulnerability, uh, I don’t see too much AI kind of saying, look, I made this mistake and here’s what I learned from it.

Carlos Gil (12:46.099)

Right?

John Jantsch (12:54.827)

So, I mean, think some of those elements need to be in our marketing to kind of show or communicate the humaneness, don’t they?

Carlos Gil (13:02.139)

Absolutely. And look, like the other element of this that I want to reel and it’s something I’m very passionate about right now is this whole notion of owning your data, right? Like AI aside, AI is great from operational standpoint, but we are living right now in this just noisy digital ecosystem. And I write about this in the book. I talk about this one when I’m on stage. I take it you’ve seen the movie Cast Away, John? Right. It’s one of my favorite movies of all time. And anyone that follows my work, whether you read it or you read my podcast,

John Jantsch (13:10.712)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:25.198)

yeah, sure, sure.

Carlos Gil (13:31.795)

like this, or you see me speak on stage, I always make analogies. I’m like, what kind of has helped me as a marketer define my voice in this whole space is I’m not a textbook marketer. one these guys that I’ve been in the trenches, I’ve done the work, I’ve worked in corporate, I’ve started businesses, and I learned and I go out and teach. And I use a lot of analogies. So my point of where I’m going with this is that in the movie Castaway, Tom Hanks is stranded on this island. And throughout the movie, he’s talking to a volleyball named Wilson.

And I often use this comparison that we as digital marketers are the equivalent of Tom Hanks speaking to a volleyball, right? We produce all this content. We spend all this time in the lab making videos, making shorts, making reels, writing blogs. And if no one consumes them, right? No one’s listening. Then that is the equivalent of Tom Hanks speaking to Wilson. So you have all this noise that’s taking place every single day. And it’s not just brands competing against other brands. Like way back in the day, I used to run social media for a brand named Winn-Dixie.

there’s supermarket chain here in Florida. And the primary competitors was Publix and Walmart, and Albertsons and a couple other stores. Well, nowadays, if you’re a supermarket chain, just using this example, you’re not competing against supermarkets, so we’re talking about food, you’re competing against bloggers or vloggers, you’re competing against influencers, cooks, you’re competing against anyone that’s in your category, that’s taking market share away from your brand, which is why I go back to the basis of

relationships be important. And one of my passionate topics right now in this era that we’re in is this notion that you need to own your data. You cannot rely on these social networks to give you reach. You cannot rely on the little breadcrumbs that Metta or Instagram give you. You just can’t. We recently saw TikTok go through a very scary situation where they were temporarily banned. And that I believe should be a wake up call to every single business, every single creator, influencer, anyone.

John Jantsch (15:15.15)

you

Carlos Gil (15:25.545)

who’s relying on these technologies to grow and promote their business, you cannot rely on them. You need to use them for reach. You need to use them to create awareness for your business. But inevitably, you need to be taking those relationships, i.e. those followers, you to move them over into systems and platforms like email. You need to own data and you cannot be reliant because unfortunately, when you do become reliant on these systems, you are just putting too much control in their hands.

John Jantsch (15:53.71)

Yeah, you know, it used to be, mean, when, I don’t know, let’s say 2005, 2006 or so when social media started, you know, popping on the scene, it was very much seen as a top of the funnel. Like here’s how to get reach. Here’s how to get exposure. Here’s how to get seen. But you got to drive people back, you know, to the property of your own. Mainly, we tried to drive people back to our websites, right? We’d post our blog and say, here, come read my blog here. Well, now a lot of those platforms.

Don’t ever want you to leave. And so, you you get penalized for doing any of that kind of drive people back. And another thing I’m seeing happen is, you know, on TikTok, you’re seeing entire journey or entire, you know, funnel happening on TikTok. It’s no longer just top of the funnel. People are actually transacting. So, so how, how do people kind of balance that idea that I now need to be more places with like a full, you know, full range of content as well as, you know,

I 100 % agree, own your own data.

Carlos Gil (16:56.157)

You know, I’ve been saying this, John, since probably about 2015 when I started speaking. I go back and I look at some of my earlier content. I’m like, man, I’ve been saying the same thing for a decade now. And one of the key terms I have said to folks, and this goes back to when I worked in corporate marketing running socials, have an omnichannel presence. Don’t be married to one platform. Use these platforms the way that they use you.

And I’ll just tell you as someone that has spent a lot of time in these platforms as a user, and again, having worked for a major social network, these social networks at the end of the day, they all do the same thing. They’re all digital advertising platforms. And I think this is something that’s lost upon the majority of creators because again, like let’s think of it, your average business owner, your average influencers using platforms, they’re just trying to get rich. They’re trying to continue to build a community, get followers. The name of the game should not be to get followers.

Your objective as a business needs to be to generate more revenue, right? Followers, it’s a vanity metric, right? Like, you know that you’ve worked in the industry for a very long time as well. So I always am constantly preaching this. Use these platforms the same way they use you. The way they use you is they’re using you because you’re creating contents, keeping people on the platforms. And as long as you’re keeping people on the platforms, they’re selling more ads and they’re making more money, right? Like they are in the business of making money. That’s what these social networks do. And again,

John Jantsch (17:52.878)

Yes.

John Jantsch (18:20.184)

Yeah. Well, and let’s throw Google in under the bus too. mean, that’s what Google’s, you know, existence is as well.

Carlos Gil (18:25.193)

Yeah, it doesn’t make them bad. Like by any means, like if anyone from Google or LinkedIn or better, any of these platforms are listening or watching, like this doesn’t make them bad. It’s just understanding the game. Like these are businesses. So if I am running a business, right, I always use this analogy again, going back to the analogy, if I, for example, am running, let’s just say a flea market, right? We all know what a flea market is. You cannot walk into my flea market and set up a table and sell without paying a hundred bucks to the owner of the flea market.

John Jantsch (18:35.554)

Right. Yep.

John Jantsch (18:49.762)

Right.

Yeah, right,

Carlos Gil (18:53.929)

to rent for a day. If you’re a barber, you can’t go to a barber shop and cut hair and not expect to give the owner his or her cut. That’s just business. Social media networks operate the same exact way. And again, it doesn’t make them bad. You just have to understand the rules of the game. And normally when I do my talks, have like, sorry, I have this slide behind me and it has like a casino and like Zuckerberg’s face in front of it. And I always say like,

look at meta, for example, and like they are a form of casino, because they’ll give you a little dopamine, they’ll let you win here and there in the form of a viral video or your post might reach, you know, more than 1 % of your following audience. But they’re not gonna let you win all the time. And they’re not gonna let you do it for free. And you have to pay to play inevitably. And again, man, like I love this space. Like, I know we’ve talked about AI, and we’re trying to get as much in and in the time that we’re together. I love I just love the space, man.

John Jantsch (19:24.654)

Yeah.

Carlos Gil (19:50.911)

I’ve worked in social media professionally since oh wait, I got onto social media in 1995, back then when I was 12 and it was known as AOL. I have grown up evolving with this in my life. I’ve made a lot of money as an entrepreneur using it. I’ve made a lot of money as a creator using it. I’ve helped businesses make a lot of money using these tools. Like I love them. They’re great. However,

where I do keep it 100 as a thought leader and speaker in the space is what I’ve already said. And I’ll repeat it one more time. If it’s cool, you cannot rely on these networks alone. You have to have an omni-channel strategy. And that means go wide, have a presence on multiple platforms, build a community within those platforms. Don’t just rinse and repeat your content because now you’re not giving people an incentive to go follow you in different channels. And most importantly, you need to find ways to own your data, which is pretty simple. Start up a newsletter, right?

John Jantsch (20:33.038)

you

Carlos Gil (20:45.671)

to get response, sign up, get a newsletter. And then as you’re creating content that people enjoy seeing, remind them, hey, if you want to see more of this, if you want to be a part of my insider circle, my club, my mastermind, however you frame it, now you have a solution to give people that you own. So you don’t have to rely on the out.

John Jantsch (21:02.435)

Yes.

Yeah. I, know, just another practical nod to that idea is that a lot of times people have to bump into you in about five places before they start paying attention. you know, so it’s, it’s the old, gotta hear, you know, I gotta hear your message or see your sign or whatever it is multiple times before I’m really going to, to start tuning in. Well, Carlos, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the duct tape marketing podcast. Where would you invite people to find, to connect with you first off, but then find out more about the end of marketing.

Carlos Gil (21:34.303)

Yeah, for sure. So once again, John, thank you so much for having me on your podcast today. It has been a pleasure. You can learn about the end of marketing by going to Amazon. Just look up end of marketing. There’s the first and second edition. Also, I want to call out, get response, shout out, get response, go to get response.com. You can sign up for a free trial there. If you have any questions with regards to setting up a newsletter, email marketing, please be sure to reach out to me. You can connect with me on all the socials, Carlos skill 83 and LinkedIn.

is my go to platform of choice if you want you can connect on me there but I love Instagram I love tiktok love Facebook I am a proponent of look let’s get to know each other LinkedIn is great but you only get to know so much about me and me of you on LinkedIn it’s professional social network and at the end of the day so if you’re on Instagram look me up at Carlos guilty 3 let me know that you heard this episode of the duct tape podcast and any way that can help you out let me know I’m here I got you

John Jantsch (22:32.878)

Awesome. I appreciate it, Carlos, and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Carlos Gil (22:37.599)

All right, John, I appreciate you.