nadosi.com

John Jantsch (00:01.282)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Jacqueline Lieberman. She’s former chief strategy officer at Story Worldwide, a master of narrative-based marketing, blending human insights with brand truths for giants like Unilever, Google, and Lexus. She’s now the founder of brand Crudo, which she created the DNA method to help &A executives and CMOs differentiate their brands by leveraging raw

truths that can’t be copied. Frustrated by the stale research methods, she also launched the Anti-Focus Group, exclusive dinners that deliver actionable insights from hard to reach audiences while doubling as premium brand experiences. So Jacqueline, welcome to the show.

Jacqueline Lieberman (00:49.624)

Thank you, john. feel like that’s the podcast. did such a great job with the intro. We’re done.

John Jantsch (00:52.452)

Well, I just read what you gave me to tell you the truth. So I take no credit credit for other than being able to read, which Mrs. Morrison in first grade made sure of.

Jacqueline Lieberman (00:57.262)

you

Jacqueline Lieberman (01:03.16)

There we go.

John Jantsch (01:04.228)

All right, so let’s define like what’s an anti-focus group dinner look like.

Jacqueline Lieberman (01:09.422)

sure. Yeah, well, let’s see, as the name suggests, it is the opposite of what a traditional focus group is. And because I am a believer that setting really matters. So when you think about traditional focus groups, they basically take two paths. The traditional route is that you think of this, you know, conference room, a stale conference room with a

what feels like this double glass, you know, one sided mirror that’s there that makes you feel like you’re in like an FBI interrogation room, you know, being detained for some reason. And then you have a moderator who nine times out of 10 really just looked at, you know, what they’re supposed to be talking about. And they don’t really have a lot of skin in the game as to like what to do with the information. So there’s that.

And then the, you know, with the advent of zoom and online panels. So now a lot of really where it’s gone is that you’re looking at a screen with a bunch of boxes that people are doing all day long anyway. And of course people are multitasking while they’re supposedly answering your questions and paying attention. So that’s made the whole feedback loop even worse in my opinion, you know? So yeah.

John Jantsch (02:31.564)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, no, I was just going to say, so, you’ve talked about all the limitations of those, but I mean, are, the real limitation that we’re not getting very much that’s actionable out of these? mean, is that why it’s broken?

Jacqueline Lieberman (02:33.998)

And so what I go ahead and you go.

Jacqueline Lieberman (02:51.254)

Yeah, I mean, so being 30 years on the receiving end of those reports, and that number is a real number three, zero. And, and I because I’m the one that’s supposed to do something with it as a brand strategist. This is supposed to be a gold mine of information by which I’m supposed to use as a foundation for brand strategy, audience messaging. And, you know, because of that,

John Jantsch (02:59.95)

Yeah.

Jacqueline Lieberman (03:21.068)

What I end up getting is I dig through a hundred pages of a poorly designed PowerPoint and the crux of it is really about it tells you exactly what was said in the room, which is helpful, but it doesn’t tell you why it was said. It doesn’t tell you really what the motivations are behind what some of the feedback was. And really what the anti-focus group dinners are about is

They’re designed to uncover key mindset and emotional triggers, right? So those are really the two foundational elements of marketing mindset and emotion. So that’s what this dinner setting is meant to unlock because immediately the professional armor comes off. As soon as they walk in the room, they’re like, this is like the best, this is the best part of my day right now. They’re treated like VIPs from the second they walk in.

And they’re sitting down to an amazing meal in an amazing setting. And I’m gently moderating the conversation. I’m not peppering them with a million questions, but it’s new course, new question, or new course, new sets of questions. And we talk about things like, how do you build trust with people? Who do you love to collaborate with and why?

Is there anything in your career that you haven’t done yet that you really want to do? Just so we can understand the more as people and not as targets is really what the feedback is.

John Jantsch (04:59.62)

So as I listen to those, it’s almost more like networking questions than research questions, right? It’s something you might typically want to uncover in a healthy networking conversation. But let’s back up a little bit. So I’m assuming, or maybe I’m wrong, but are these mostly, if not exclusively, B2B settings? OK. OK.

Jacqueline Lieberman (05:10.712)

Sure.

Jacqueline Lieberman (05:17.794)

Yeah, they seem to work for b2b, you know, so, you know, it’s not about, you know, let’s look at the latest box of Cheerios and determine what the creative is. It’s, it’s really more about business to business products and services.

John Jantsch (05:26.733)

Yeah, okay.

John Jantsch (05:34.116)

So I’m a customer or maybe a targeted customer. get invited to this. Am I told I’m going to dinner and it’s going to be a research? do you sometimes get a little, because it’s unique, do you sometimes get a little, wait a minute, what?

Jacqueline Lieberman (05:42.402)

Yes.

Jacqueline Lieberman (05:48.45)

Well, we get mostly the only wait a minute what is when we do disclose that they will be wearing microphones, because this is research, you know, so this is, you know, when I call it, it’s the most productive dinner you’ll ever sponsor all year, you know, it’s like you have b2b dinners all the time and networking, right and golf outings and all of this stuff. But but when people walk in,

John Jantsch (05:56.676)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:04.536)

Yeah, yeah.

Right.

Jacqueline Lieberman (06:14.574)

They we let them know in the invitation before they even respond that they will be mic’d up that this is for research and just like research in a focus group they do get compensated for their time. So we want them to feel that their time spent was immensely valuable in every way.

John Jantsch (06:36.42)

So I’m sure people forget about the microphones pretty quickly in, I’m imagining like, okay, I can’t burp, right? So, all right, so then you get, I assume the microphone is because you’re recording, right? So you get all of this recordings. How do you make sense out of them that in a way that you can actually address the objectives of the sponsor?

Jacqueline Lieberman (06:43.502)

We haven’t run into that.

Jacqueline Lieberman (07:02.464)

Yes. Well, before I answer that directly, I will address the so the mindset questions that I was saying before, we do have dinners where it is a mix, it really depends on the goal of the dinner. some goals of the dinner are to really understand their ideal customer way better in terms of their mindset and emotional triggers. So that could be the beginning of the dinner, the second half of the dinner could be very much of a brass tacks look,

John Jantsch (07:10.627)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (07:17.188)

Hmm.

Jacqueline Lieberman (07:30.246)

we would like you to respond to this messaging or this concept board. And I hand it I hand it out over dinner and say, you know, once we’re done, or we’re looking at dessert, and we say, Okay, what do you think about this particular concept or this tagline? So we can get to brass tacks and cover that for sure. But we recommend that it’s definitely going to be a balance of both mindset as well as the brass tacks to make it really worth the sponsoring companies while

John Jantsch (07:33.86)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:00.258)

You know, I’ve always contended for years that, you know, one of the best things a company can do is bring their customers together so that they can, hey, you know, I’ve had this problem. They solved that problem for me too. So there’s networking, there’s referrals that go on. It’s people feel like champions now because you’ve treated them to dinner. Is there a little bit of a combination of, hey, we’re like treating you special and getting research from you?

Jacqueline Lieberman (08:07.266)

Yeah.

Jacqueline Lieberman (08:27.086)

for sure. Yeah, for sure. mean, and making them feel valued is part of where the authentic feedback comes in, you know, because when, you know, like I said, when that armor kind of comes down immediately, when you make this comfortable setting and you’re breaking bread with people and introducing yourself and all of a sudden, you’ll get a very different piece of feedback if you ask the same question in a zoom panel or in a conference room.

know, you just do and and that’s the the beauty of it. And and with your question before about you know, how do I weed through three hours of transcript but you know, I’ve been interviewing stakeholders my entire career, it’s part of my process for brand strategy, right? So so before I even, you know, put pen to paper on a brand foundation work, I

ask and say give me the 1015 people at your company who I should be talking to. So so I’ve been doing you know, trying to pull out the nuggets of what people say, you know, my whole career and this is really no different.

John Jantsch (09:37.944)

Yeah. Well, and I will say maybe you’ll disagree with it, but this idea, but, your, strategist brain creates the questions in the conversation, but I do think some of the new tools that we have AI tools, are very good at analysis if given the right data, right? Yeah.

Jacqueline Lieberman (09:50.446)

Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline Lieberman (09:54.938)

sure. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it helps with calling down transcriptions and you know, maybe generating some themes but you know, I’m I’m the only one that has my client in the back of my brain to understand really what they’re looking for. So, that’s what I’m looking at when I look through those raw transcripts.

John Jantsch (10:07.82)

Yeah, that’s right.

John Jantsch (10:14.98)

So do you have an example maybe of a campaign or maybe you can’t name names but maybe talk a little bit about the impact of one of these dinners?

Jacqueline Lieberman (10:24.216)

Sure, yeah, I can’t name names or disclose, but we’ve had dinners where it was first, it’s like, okay, we need to really know our customers better because the current personas that we have just tell me the pain points of why they hate my technology, for instance. And I already knew that. can we really understand who they are as people? So that was dinner number one. Then we went back to work.

and said, okay, so this is the feedback from dinner number one, we worked on brand strategy and positioning. So we worked on actual messaging for campaigns and for websites, like for homepages, product descriptions, things like that. And it was a piece of technology for a platform. And, and then so dinner number two was very specific around, what do you think about what this company is saying and how they’re talking about their technology?

And that now that particular dinner informed what ended up on the website and what is in campaign development right now. And, you know, so CMOs are, you know, it’s a way to really kind of keep a quarterly pulse on, know, how their customers are evolving. Also how, you know, especially if it’s a B2B technology company.

John Jantsch (11:41.538)

Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline Lieberman (11:49.388)

You have a product roadmap, you’re constantly putting out new technology. So that’s always evolving. So, you know, they’re using it as these quarterly check-ins to understand if they’re on the right track.

John Jantsch (12:01.633)

Do you see this approach being something that has specific uses or do you think this is just going to reshape the way brands do research, period?

Jacqueline Lieberman (12:11.592)

mean, honestly, it’s, I mean, there’s nothing wrong with starting if brands are doing surveys, you know, things like that. I think there’s always a use for surveys because it casts out a wide net. And surveys will always be there for that reason is to get a beat on, you know, what the mass market or what your mass consumer is saying if we want to send it out to a couple of hundred people. Now, when you really start to

Any qualitative is usually second after that survey is like, okay, here are the general themes that we saw that people are saying and what they care about. Let’s dig in deeper. And usually that’s where, you know, focus groups and online panels come in. But, you know, as I said before, when we’re talking about really understanding, say, executive level insights, C-suite insights, they’re not going to focus groups. They’re not joining.

online panels, and maybe they’ll be doing a survey maybe. So this is the way to really understand what that B2B executive is really caring about and what motivates them.

John Jantsch (13:22.092)

Have you heard from clients that have done, I don’t know, let’s call it traditional as opposed to anti-focus group. Have you heard from some that say, wow, this is different or what’s been the feedback?

Jacqueline Lieberman (13:34.97)

yeah. I mean, I can’t so the feedback from clients and I’ll talk about the guests in a minute. but what clients are really loving is the fact that there there is this brand halo effect that happens. That’s that intangible effect of when people are leaving on a high. So even if they didn’t know the sponsoring brand coming in, you know, we disclose who the sponsoring company is. But even if they weren’t familiar with it at first, say,

John Jantsch (13:41.284)

Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline Lieberman (14:04.822)

Now they’re leaving the room, understanding them better, leaving on a high, networking and exchanging numbers with other guests. So it became like this peer to peer exchange dinner by default. you can’t beat getting a beautifully designed 15 to 20 page chock full of actionable insights where we go, here’s the main insight.

Here’s the main implication and here’s the very specific marketing opportunity. You get that within 10 days, not a month, not six weeks, not anything that you need like, well, can we look at this or that? Can you cut the data this way? It’s 10 days, they get exactly what they need to act on. And that’s what they’ve been loving.

John Jantsch (14:51.812)

So I heard you say that they may not know the brand. these are not customers. I just made an assumption that they’re interviewing customers or having customers at these.

Jacqueline Lieberman (14:59.648)

It’s a little it’s been both. So some it’s been let’s invite our existing pool of customers. And then there’s been you know what, we need to just recruit our existing profile and of people who may or may not know us, but we’re going to invite them to dinner anyway. So and you know, there’s a lot of gold in inviting those types of guests as well.

John Jantsch (15:22.99)

So there are some logistics, right? They have to be in the room. So do you, know, lot of B2B brands, their clients might be all over the country, all over the world. So does that add a layer of logistics and cost, I assume, right? Yeah.

Jacqueline Lieberman (15:26.094)

Correct.

Jacqueline Lieberman (15:33.368)

Yes.

Jacqueline Lieberman (15:38.072)

For sure. Yeah. I mean, I think really what we do is we start with the customer, the sponsoring company. Everybody has a sales, Jen demand, Jen lead list. So everybody has warm leads, hot leads. We start there and say, okay, who, who are they? Can we, can we get them into in a specific geo? And then once we get the geography down, then we pick the, the 20 that really will.

move the needle for the sponsoring company. then, you know, the, take care of all the logistics from there, which is as soon as I have those 15 to 20 people, then we start the outreach and, and I have to say the, you know, the venue is also very important because again, if we want people to come, we want them to be excited about it, that it’s time well spent. it’s

it’s in a venue that either they’ve heard about been there before or someplace that they’ve always wanted to go and just haven’t been. So the venue is definitely a draw. And that’s why, you know, we really insist on keeping the quality very high, because we want it to be, you know, really well worth their time, you know, when when they enter. So, yeah.

John Jantsch (16:56.388)

Is this something in your mind that you could write a book about, that you could teach, that you could certify other people to do, or do you have any plans to scale it beyond your work?

Jacqueline Lieberman (17:07.266)

Yeah, I mean, I’ve thought about, you know, I thought about a book at least, in thinking about just kind of the magic that happens when you break bread with people around the table and and what you kind of learn from that because guests come in as complete strangers and then they leave almost as friends. I mean, they’re hugging me at the end, you know, taking selfies with a group selfies of all of us, they’re exchanging information.

John Jantsch (17:32.004)

Right.

Jacqueline Lieberman (17:36.174)

We connect on LinkedIn and every single person who on LinkedIn has commented on any of my posts, if they were a guest, they say, I mean, here’s the other thing. They haven’t just commented like one sentence like, that was great. Paragraphs, I’m getting paragraphs of comments saying this was unlike anything I’ve ever experienced. You know, it was a way that…

John Jantsch (17:55.204)

video.

Jacqueline Lieberman (18:02.274)

we opened up I keep in touch with the people around the table that I met that night now on a consistent basis. So it’s it’s a really nice ripple effect that happens, you know, after that particular dinner, which is which feels great. You know? Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:17.228)

Yeah, absolutely. Well, Jacqueline, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by and tell us a little bit about what you’re working on. Is there any place you’d invite people to find out more about your work or certainly about

Jacqueline Lieberman (18:30.016)

Yeah, absolutely. They can just go to brand crudo dot com and there’s an anti focus group tab right there and they can find out more info.

John Jantsch (18:40.132)

I’m going show my ignorance here and I’m sure you told me the last time you were on the show, what’s the significance of the word of the yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jacqueline Lieberman (18:46.03)

brand crudo. So part of the DNA method of what I uncover for brands to help out maneuver their competition is that I believe that every brand has a raw truth, you know, and that’s part of their DNA. So, so that’s where crudo came from. And, that’s what I helped them uncover and tell to the world through strategy.

John Jantsch (18:59.986)

John Jantsch (19:10.486)

Awesome. again, appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Jacqueline Lieberman (19:17.046)

awesome. Thank you, john. Thank you so much for having me. Bye bye.

John Jantsch (19:19.492)

You bet.

Clone of Weekend Favs January 18th

Clone of Weekend Favs January 18th written by Jordan E read more at Duct Tape Marketing

My weekend blog post routine includes posting links to a handful of tools or great content I ran across during the week.

I don’t go into depth about the finds, but I encourage you to check them out if they sound interesting. The photo in the post is a favorite for the week from an online source or one I took on the road.

NotebookLM: AI-powered tool by Google for summarizing and generating insights from notes.
Mem: Smart workspace that organizes and connects ideas automatically.
Obsidian: Markdown-based app for creating a personal knowledge graph.

These are my weekend favs; I would love to hear about some of yours – Connect with me on Linkedin!

If you want to check out more Weekend Favs you can find them here.

How Strategic Planning Can Help You Crush Your Goals in 2025

How Strategic Planning Can Help You Crush Your Goals in 2025 written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Strategic planning is one of those things that’s easy to push off because, let’s face it, running a business keeps you busy. But here’s the deal: if you don’t have a clear plan, it’s way harder to hit your goals. You’ll just be spinning your wheels instead of moving forward.

At Duct Tape Marketing, we’ve been tweaking our strategic planning process for years, and it’s been a game-changer. Since we started using this approach, we’ve grown our revenue by over 20% every year.

If you’re ready to map out your best year yet, let’s take a look at how we do it.

What Is Strategic Planning, Really?

Strategic planning is just a fancy way of saying you’re making a plan to reach your goals and figuring out how to take action. It’s about thinking big (one-year and three-year goals) and then breaking it down into smaller, manageable chunks you can focus on every quarter.

A lot of people skip strategic planning because they feel too busy, or they don’t follow through after they make the plan. That’s why having a simple system makes all the difference.

Our Go-To Framework for Strategic Planning

At Duct Tape Marketing, we mix mindset, goal-setting, and action steps into a process that actually works. Here’s how:

1. Get Clear on What Matters to You

Before you dive into business goals, take a minute to think about your personal values. What drives you? What matters most? When you’re clear on this, it’s way easier to stay motivated and make decisions that align with what you care about.

Try This:

Grab a notebook (or our handy spreadsheet) and brainstorm what’s important to you. Is it work-life balance? Making an impact? Financial security? Once you have your list, rank your top 10. These are your guideposts for staying focused and grounded as you plan.

2. Lay the Foundation for Your Business

Your business needs a strong foundation. This means knowing your purpose, values, what makes you unique, and who your ideal customers are. This step sets the stage for everything else you’ll do—from marketing to operations.

Ask Yourself:

Why does my business exist? What’s the deeper purpose?
What values define how we operate and interact with clients?
How are we different from competitors in our space?
Who are we trying to help? What do they need from us?

Taking the time to answer these questions creates clarity and ensures every decision you make aligns with your bigger picture.

3. Write Down Your Goals

If you don’t write it down, it’s not a real goal—it’s just a wish. Studies show that people who write their goals are way more likely to achieve them. For your business, focus on revenue and profit targets for the next year and three years.

SMARTER Goals:

We use a twist on the classic SMART goals. Our SMARTER goals are:

Specific: Clear and actionable.
Measurable: Define success with numbers.
Achievable: Set a stretch goal, but keep it realistic.
Relevant: Align with your overall strategy.
Time-Based: Set a deadline.
Empowering: Goals should inspire you and your team.
Reflective: Make sure they align with your values and purpose.

4. Figure Out Your “Why”

This one’s huge. Why do your goals matter? When things get tough (and they will), your “why” is what keeps you going and reminds you why you started in the first place.

Example:

“I want to grow revenue by 20% because it will let me provide stability for my family, expand my team, and give back to my community.”

A strong “why” is like a north star—it keeps you motivated and focused no matter what challenges come your way.

5. Plan Quarterly Priorities

Breaking your big goals into quarterly priorities makes them way less overwhelming. Plus, it gives you a chance to adjust as things change, whether that’s in your business or the market.

What to Do:

Set a specific revenue target for the quarter.
Identify three main priorities to focus on.
Break each priority into smaller projects with clear deadlines and team assignments.

By tackling one quarter at a time, you’ll feel a sense of accomplishment and build momentum towards your bigger goals.

6. Schedule Time for Your Plan

All the planning in the world won’t help if you don’t take action. Block time on your calendar to work on your priorities—and treat it like an unbreakable meeting.

Pro Tip:

Experiment with what works for you. Maybe you dedicate Mondays to strategy or block out mornings for focused work. The key is sticking to your schedule and showing up for yourself just like you would for a client or team meeting.

How AI Can Make Planning Easier

AI tools like ChatGPT can help you work smarter and make strategic planning more effective. Here’s how:

Analyze your data for trends, opportunities, and patterns.
Compare your priorities to long-term goals to ensure alignment.
Use AI to streamline repetitive tasks, freeing up time for high-level thinking and strategy.

AI isn’t just a tool—it’s like having a data analyst and assistant by your side, helping you make better decisions faster.

Tying It All Back to Marketing

Strategic planning isn’t just for operations—it’s the foundation for effective marketing too. At Duct Tape Marketing, we use a Marketing Strategy Pyramid that builds on your business strategy. Once you know where you’re headed, you can create a marketing plan that supports your goals and drives real results.

Let’s Get Started

Ready to make a plan for 2025? Make a copy and download our strategic planning spreadsheet and start mapping out your goals. If you’re feeling stuck or want help taking your plan to the next level, let’s chat. We’re passionate about helping businesses create strategies that actually work.

Stop Killing Ideas! Use “Yes, And” Instead of “No, Because”

Stop Killing Ideas! Use “Yes, And” Instead of “No, Because” written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Duncan Wardle

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Duncan Wardle, former Head of Innovation and Creativity at Disney, who shared his strategies for embedding innovation and creativity into organizational culture. Duncan has spent decades fostering innovation in some of the world’s most iconic brands, including Disney Imagineering, Pixar, and Lucasfilm. His fresh approach emphasizes breaking free from traditional thinking, fostering playful leadership, and reframing challenges to create breakthrough solutions.

During our conversation, Duncan highlighted the power of replacing the dismissive “No, because” mindset with the collaborative “Yes, and” approach. This simple shift not only encourages creative thinking but also transforms individual ideas into collective solutions that are more likely to succeed. By fostering a culture of playful leadership, embedding innovation into the DNA of teams, and solving consumer pain points with reframing strategies, leaders can drive sustainable growth and cultivate organizational creativity.

Key Takeaways:

Adopt the “Yes, And” Mindset
Replace “No, because” with “Yes, and” to foster collaborative brainstorming and build on ideas instead of shutting them down.
Reframe Challenges for Better Solutions
Instead of asking, “How can we make more money?” reframe questions to solve consumer pain points, like Disney did with their Magic Band innovation.
Leverage Playfulness to Unlock Creativity
Incorporate playful leadership techniques, such as short energizers and humor, to shift teams into a creative and problem-solving mindset.
Embed Innovation into Your Culture
Avoid isolating creativity in specific teams—empower all employees to think innovatively as part of their roles.
Look Outside Your Industry for Inspiration
Borrow ideas and technologies from other industries to inspire creative thinking and problem-solving.
Reclaim Imagination and Creativity
Break free from the constraints of traditional education and encourage curiosity, intuition, and imagination in your workplace.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introduction to Duncan Wardle
[01:00] Defining Innovation and Embedding a Culture of Creativity
[03:12] Embracing Innate Creativity
[04:48] The Future of Employability
[09:38] Collaborative Brainstorming Exercise
[12:43] Unlocking Creativity through Playfulness and Collaboration
[17:01] River of Thinking and Innovation

More About Duncan Wardle:

Check out Duncan Wardle’s Website
Connect with Duncan Wardle on LinkedIn
Read The Imagination Emporium: Creative Recipes for Innovation by Duncan Wardle

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Want to elevate your marketing game? AdCritter pairs Connected TV ads with precise digital retargeting to drive real results. Discover how their full-funnel strategy can help your business grow smarter. Let them know Duct Tape Marketing sent you, and you’ll get a dollar-for-dollar match on your first campaign! Learn more at adcritter.com.

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.89)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Duncan Wardle. He’s the former head of innovation and creativity at Disney. Duncan played a pivotal role in fostering innovation across Imagineering, Lucasfilm, Marvel, Pixar, and Disney parks, crafting enchanting new storylines and experiences. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today, The Imagination Emporium.

Creative recipes for innovation. So Duncan, welcome to the show.

Duncan (00:34.324)

Thank you, thanks very much for having me.

John Jantsch (00:36.074)

So one of my viewers, listeners, not viewers, won’t be able to know this, but one of my favorite characters is Goofy. You’ve got him right there behind you.

Duncan (00:46.794)

Yeah, so yes, these are hand-painted. It’s not an illustration. Yeah, they were created a few years ago now.

John Jantsch (00:55.106)

Very, very cool. So there was a book I read right when I was getting started, actually, that was very influential on me. was written by Peter Drucker and one of the comments in there was that he said that the only two things in business that matter are marketing and innovation. Everything else is a cost. I think a lot of people quote that and I’ve heard that phrase many times, but I’m wondering, like,

If we asked 10 people what innovation actually was at a company, I think we would get maybe 11 or 12 definitions. So how do you frame the idea of innovation? mean, it’s very large concept.

Duncan (01:32.57)

Yeah, crystal clear. Creativity is the ability to have an idea. We can all do that. We do it every day. Innovation is the ability to get it done. The challenge for most of us is the more experience, the more expertise we have, the more reasons we know why the new idea won’t work. So we constantly shoot it down. I call it our river of thinking. And it’s very fast and very wide and very allowing you and me to make quick and informed decisions. But in the last four years, we’ve seen global pandemics.

John Jantsch (01:39.394)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice.

Duncan (01:58.762)

We’ve seen Generation Z entering the workplace but doesn’t want to work for corporate America. We’ve got artificial intelligence entering the marketplace. And what was the fourth one? There’s four of them. Global pandemic, Generation Z entering the workplace, artificial intelligence. Doesn’t matter. The world’s changed, right? And it’s changed irrevocably. We can’t go back to thinking the way we thought four years ago. And so, you know, Disney, I tried four models of innovation. Model number one.

I hired somebody who knew what they were doing. I said, make me look good. That was an agency. And to a certain extent, they did. They were never around for execution. And they certainly weren’t going to show me how they did what they did, or they were worried I wouldn’t hire them again. Model number two, we’re creating an innovation team. Duncan will be in charge. What could possibly go wrong? Well, outside of legal, who does legal work? Outside of marketing, who does marketing work? Nobody. So when you create an innovation team, you subliminally just told everybody else you’re off the hook.

We tried an accelerator program which created some level of access enabling us to partner with some young tech startups and bring some new technology to market. But we had failed in our overall goal, which was set by the CEO of Disney, was how might we embed a culture of innovation and creativity into everybody’s DNA. So I set out to create a toolkit that has three principles. It takes the BS out of innovation and makes it less intimidating to normal, hardworking people.

Make creativity tangible for those people who are uncomfortable with ambiguity and gray. Fun, more importantly, make the process fun. Give people tools they choose to use when you and I are not around.

John Jantsch (03:31.062)

All right, so and I’m sure you hear this all the time. I know you’ll have a great answer for this, but what do do in those organizations or individuals who we know there are lots of them, but say, I’m just not creative. Yeah.

Duncan (03:44.488)

Yeah, I disagree. I’m sorry. Look, let me ask you question. When you were a small boy, what was your favorite toy?

John Jantsch (03:54.094)

Probably a stick.

Duncan (03:55.594)

See what why because the stick was your lightsaber. That’s why it was your wand It was anything you wanted it to be and we were all born creative with an amazing image when you were given a gift for a holiday and it came in an enormous box and it took you ages to take the toy out of the box what do you spend the rest of week playing with Yeah, the box right it was your rocket it was your force it was your cart It was anything you wanted to be till you went to the number one killer of creativity Education and the first thing your first grade teacher told you to do was don’t forget to color in between the lines

John Jantsch (04:10.798)

The fort.

John Jantsch (04:20.044)

Right.

Duncan (04:24.586)

Small children, they’re very curious. ask why, why, why, why, why again? Because they’re seeking the core consumer truth. They’re after the insight for innovation. If I were to survey 5,000 people and ask them why they go to Disney on holiday, the number one response I’ll get is we go for the new attractions. But that’s not strictly true, is it? So if I were to rely just on my data, I’d go spend $250 million on a capital investment strategy. But if I pause for a moment and I act childlike, not childish, and say, well, why do you go for the new attractions? Well, now I like the classics. Why do you like the classics? Well, I like it’s a small world.

Why do you like it? a small world. Why remember music? God, no, not the music. Why the music? Where’s my mum’s favourite ride we used to go every summer? Why is that important to you 20 years later? I’ll take my daughter now. Boom. There’s your insight for innovation. Call consumer truth. It’s got nothing to do with the capital investment strategy and everything to do with that person’s personal memory and nostalgia. But then we go to the number one killer of curiosity, education. And the next thing we’re taught to do is to stop asking why, because there’s only one right answer. Here comes artificial intelligence, right?

You think we used to laugh at the blue collar workers? Well, guess what? They’ll be laughing at the white collar workers now. But I’ve been working with Google on their DeepMind project, which is their AI project. And I asked the lead engineer what I said, how the hell am I going to compete with this? You know, what will be the most employable skill sets the next five to 10 years? And she said, that’s easy. The ones that will be the hardest for her to program into AI. I said, well, what are those? says, the ones with which you were born, imagination, creativity, curiosity, empathy, and intuition. But they’re drummed out of us by the time we’re 18.

That’s the challenge.

John Jantsch (05:51.81)

Yeah, Of course, having some handy set of plumbing skills will become very necessary too though, It is.

Duncan (06:00.52)

No seriously hands-on workers absolutely fine. look I set out here’s why people say why do you write a book. Let me ask you quite an honest question here. When you see a business book in an office physically where is the book?

John Jantsch (06:15.022)

laying on a desk.

Duncan (06:16.616)

Yeah, there you go. it’s on the coffee table. It’s on the bookshelf. I’m going to get to it tomorrow, but my boss needs this now, so I actually never read it. I have good intentions to read it, but I don’t. So I thought, OK, how do I make it more accessible to people who’ve got other things to do? I thought, what nonfiction book have I ever read where I could read one page today and know exactly what I was going to do and not worry about the rest of the book today? My mum’s cookbook. You want shepherd’s pie? You got to pay 67. So the contents page is designed for busy people. It says, have you ever been to a brainstorm where nothing ever happened?

Go to page 67. Don’t know how to find insights for innovation? Go to page 42. Work in a heavily regulated industry? Go to page 67. So it’s designed to be very accessible, but it’s also designed to appeal to what I call the three sensory learning styles. So let me ask you a question. May I ask you to close your eyes for just a moment?

How many days are there in September? I would ask you to keep your eyes closed and tell me how you knew, how you remembered, how you learned or what you could see with your eyes closed right now. Bingo, you can open your eyes. 30 % of the people will recite the rhyme. 30 days has September, blah, blah. No, it’s true. And so they just told me they learn by listening. They probably read a lot. It’s an auditory style. How do I know that? Because they were six when they learned it. How did they remember it? Because they heard it. Another 30%.

John Jantsch (07:07.502)

30.

John Jantsch (07:15.626)

see a calendar.

John Jantsch (07:21.856)

Yeah, yeah.

Duncan (07:33.502)

Put the knuckles together and start counting the knuckles. January, February, March, April, May, June, June. Those are kinesthetic learners. By the way, John, you were taught both, but you don’t remember either because that’s not your preferred learning style. You’re the majority of the audience. You learn by seeing. You represent 40 percent of the audience. So I thought, OK, how do I create a book that’s not a book? I want it to be a toolkit. I want it to be fun, but I want it to be purposeful. I want it to appeal to all three learning styles. So it has QR codes embedded with each chapter with Spotify playlists for auditory learners.

It has animated videos in each chapter where Duncan is now an animated character. I pop out of the book with a bunch of other characters I’ve created for the visual learners and teach you how to use the tools and for our kinesthetic learners starting, I think today, but maybe in a couple of days from now, the QR code on the back of the book will actually take you directly to the very first ever fully integrated artificial intelligence book.

Why? Because I’ve never done it before. That’s why. So you will be able to ask the book questions and through chat. It’ll answer you through WhatsApp. So you might say, how do I use the tool on page 67? And it’ll answer you. But you could also say, how do I use the tool on page 67 to develop a marketing campaign that’s more of a mercy to experience for my brand? And the book will answer you.

John Jantsch (08:50.158)

Who published this book?

Duncan (08:52.266)

You know what, Amplify

John Jantsch (08:54.798)

So I’ve written several books with major publishers and I’m envisioning the meeting where you described what this book was going to be like.

Duncan (09:04.2)

I kept telling the publisher, we thought, he said it’s a book. I said, hell no, it’s not. It’s a toolkit. By the way, I want to give it away for free. Needless to say, the publisher had other ideas. I still want to give it away for students because we are killing the most employable skill sets in the next decade.

John Jantsch (09:19.502)

Yeah. So if you’re going to work with an organization that, and again, I don’t know if that’s a service you offer consulting, but if you were going to work with an organization, I mean, what are some of the mindsets they would have, you would try to get them to change the habits you would get them to change that would really make this come to life?

Duncan (09:35.686)

Here’s the first one and this is particularly for leaders, right? Because again, the more experience we have, the more reasons we know why the new idea won’t work. So John, you and I have been tasked with coming up with an idea for a birthday party, for a Harry Potter birthday party. Are you familiar with Harry Potter?

John Jantsch (09:53.166)

I’m not a, yes, I’m familiar, but I’m not a junkie.

Duncan (09:59.378)

No, but have you seen a couple of films? OK, good. So I’m going to come at you with some ideas for a Harry Potter party. I’d like you to start each and every response with the following two words. No, because they’ll be the first two words you use and you’ll tell me why not. I was thinking of coming to your house, putting a sorting hat outside the front door, having all the good people get the Gryffindor party, but all the bad people get the Slytherin party.

John Jantsch (10:01.079)

I have.

John Jantsch (10:20.428)

No, because everybody just wants to play Quidditch.

Duncan (10:24.921)

right, I tell you what then, we’ll give everybody a broomstick and they can go running around the back garden looking like idiots and work the snitch to be acting on a drone.

John Jantsch (10:29.806)

No, because they can’t really fly.

Duncan (10:34.406)

Alright, fair point. I’ll tell you what then, let’s say that we’ll bring them all indoors and we’ll have a magic potions room where we can all drink something that turns us into something totally freaky.

John Jantsch (10:42.766)

no, because, there’s actually a giant animal in the back closet that would probably eat everyone.

Duncan (10:53.898)

Fair point. tell you what then, what if we just showed the movies? We’ll put them on your TV screen and we’ll serve butterbeer and No because, come on. So let me ask you question. When somebody’s constantly no becauseing you, how does that make you feel?

John Jantsch (11:00.14)

that’s perfect. No, because there might be somebody allergic to popcorn.

John Jantsch (11:13.432)

frustrated.

Duncan (11:14.364)

Okay, I would call it business as usual. Let me ask you a question. Do you think our idea was getting bigger as we were going or was it getting smaller? Which way was it headed?

John Jantsch (11:16.578)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:21.486)

It was, we were down to watching the movies. It was getting smaller.

Duncan (11:25.48)

Yeah, all right. Let’s start again. Are you familiar with Star Wars? OK, so I’m going to come at you with some Star Wars ideas. Unlike Harry Potter, where you started the response every single time with no, because this time I’d like you to start every single response with the words yes and and we’ll just build on it together. So I was thinking of coming to your house, getting into the kitchen, painting it black, turning it into the Death Star canteen and we could have a food and wine festival and half of the boo and tattoo.

John Jantsch (11:29.518)

Yes.

John Jantsch (11:50.632)

yeah, yes, and let’s add stormtroopers.

Duncan (11:53.462)

yes, and yeah, we can have a cosplay party. All the tall people could come as Darth Vader and all the little people would come dressed as Ewoks.

John Jantsch (11:55.993)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And we’ve got to have Yoda, don’t we?

Duncan (12:03.121)

yes, and we can have the force. Everybody get a glow in the dark lightsaber full of their favorite alcoholic liquid.

John Jantsch (12:10.198)

Yes, and what about Darth Vader? Could he appear?

Duncan (12:14.362)

yes, and we could have Harrison Ford. We could bring back, yeah, or even the dead celebrities could come back via hologram and we could take them all on your corporate jet down to Disneyland to see the new galaxy’s edge.

John Jantsch (12:24.526)

Yes, and why not invite George Lucas?

Duncan (12:27.176)

Alright, so we’ll stop there. So a lot more laughter, a lot more energy. Most of us became Italian for the first time today, waving our arms. This time around, bigger or smaller.

John Jantsch (12:31.608)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:37.432)

Well, it kept getting much larger.

Duncan (12:39.434)

You can always take a big idea and value engineer it down. Pretty hard to turn a small one into a big one. Far more importantly, we work inside big organizations, we work inside small organizations, we have colleagues and constituents and clients to bring on board with our idea. By the time you and I just finished building the idea together, whose idea was it by the time we finished?

John Jantsch (12:58.145)

well was totally mine.

Duncan (12:59.53)

I would argue ours, John, thank you. So here’s the thing, two little magical words, yes and, have the power to turn a small idea into a big one really quickly. But far more importantly, have the power to transfer my idea, which never goes anywhere inside an organization, to our idea and accelerate its opportunity to get done. Just remind yourselves, I know you’re leaders, I know you’ve got responsibilities and quarterly results and deadlines. Just remind ourselves, we’re not green lighting this idea for execution today. We are merely green housing it together using yes.

If you take nothing away from listening to today’s podcast, don’t let the words know because be the first two words out of your mouth when somebody comes at you with a new idea. They have made genius two days from now, two weeks from now. You’ll never hear it. Your job as a leader is just that you’ll get to the know because but don’t start there. The other thing that I tried to teach is playfulness and I’ll tell you for why. Can I ask you to close your eyes? Where are you and what are you doing when you get your best ideas?

John Jantsch (13:47.405)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:59.438)

Definitely outside.

Duncan (14:01.768)

OK, so you can open your eyes. I’ve done this with up to 20,000 people. You’re here. Shower, bathroom, jogging, walking, driving, commuting, gym. Do you know how many people say at work? Nobody. Not one person ever writes down at work. Well, why not? Close your eyes again. Picture that last argument you were in. Bit of a shouting match. You’re angry at them. They’re angry at you. Now you turn to walk away from that argument. You’re 10, 20, 30 seconds away. You’re about a minute away from the argument and…

John Jantsch (14:12.142)

the

Duncan (14:30.026)

What just popped into your brain totally spontaneously the second you turned to walk away from that argument? What was it? Well, you should have said the killer one-liner, that one perfect, beautiful lie. You wish you’d choose to the argument, but you didn’t, did you? No, never did. Why not? Because when we’re in an argument, our brain is moving at a thousand miles an hour defending ourselves. When we’re at work, we’re doing emails and presentations and reports and we hear ourselves say, the number one barrier to innovation, I don’t have time to think. And when you say, don’t have time to think, you’re in the brain state science calls beta.

John Jantsch (14:34.702)

what I should have said.

Nope.

Duncan (14:58.57)

where the door between conscious and subconscious brain is firmly closed. When that door is closed, you only have access to your conscious brain. That is 13 % of the capacity of your brain. 87 % of the capacity of your brain is your subconscious brain. Every creative problem you’ve ever solved, every innovation you’ve seen is back here to serve as unrelated stimulus. But when the door is shut, you don’t have access to it. So how do I move you from there metaphorically and place you back in the shower where it is when you have your best ideas? You can still make an informed decision.

But still have a big idea that brain state is known as alpha. I call it amazing alpha. The best brain state for creativity at work. How do I get you there? By being playful. What do I do? I run an energizer. Well, what’s that? It’s a 60 second exercise. What am I doing? I’m making you laugh. Why am I making you laugh? Because the moment I hear laughter, I know that I’ve just opened the door between your conscious and subconscious brain. When we ask who are the most creative people you’ve ever met, everybody always says children. And I always hear people say, we don’t have the resources. You say,

Who are the most creative people? Children. how much money they got? none. Now, I don’t expect people to be playful every minute of every day. Life would be great fun, but we wouldn’t get much work done. I do expect you, particularly as leaders, to be playful at the right time.

John Jantsch (16:07.18)

Yeah, you know, I read something recently about this idea of why children, you know, are able to have just such rich imaginations and such creativity. and it, well, the person concluded that, that actually, you know, young children, particularly, are halfway in a fantasy world, you know, and, we sort of the school and everything sort of beats that out of them says, no, this is reality. But, but it’s an interesting thought that,

Duncan (16:16.778)

I haven’t gone to school yet.

John Jantsch (16:34.778)

They’re able to be so creative because they really live between reality and fantasy.

Duncan (16:39.922)

Yeah, very true. Very true. No, it’s true. Education is killing the most employable skill sets of the next decade. The future of education is gaming. Education will not exist as it exists today. Why? Because it deserves to die. Why? Because your children are learning the same thing I learned at school but I went in the 70s. That’s why.

John Jantsch (16:47.694)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:56.483)

Yeah. Yeah. Multiplication tables are not going to be really a necessary skill, are they? So I want to talk a little more about, you mentioned it briefly, but I think there’s a lot more to this idea of river of thinking. Can you kind of talk about that metaphor and how it both informs and gets in the way?

Duncan (17:12.38)

Yeah, we all got stuck in it. You know, I worked at Disney for 30 years and I was helping Lucas, Lucas Films, Marvel and Pixar have new ideas. But the challenge is when you’re talking to anybody who’s worked in one particular line of business for a long time is they become so entrenched in what I call their river of thinking. So let me explain how that or the danger of a river of thinking. You and I are going to go into business together and we’re going to open a car wash. Tell me if you were three or four essential ingredients we must have in our car wash.

John Jantsch (17:41.454)

customers, water, employees.

Duncan (17:42.718)

What else?

Employees, customers, employees and water. OK, you and I are actually, are venture capitalists. We’ve been invited to open a brand new franchise of auto spas. Who are a spa? Now close your eyes. What would you what have you seen in the spa? What would you like to see in your spa? What could we have in the spa?

John Jantsch (18:06.926)

Great music. Very, very comfortable, fancy chairs.

Duncan (18:08.714)

Okay, what else?

Duncan (18:13.94)

Okay.

Duncan (18:18.442)

What else have you seen? There we go. So you can open your eyes. I said car wash straight into your river of thinking, right? Water brushes, so vacuum dryer. I said auto spa, which is about the same product. We’ve got masseuses, we’ve got many pedis. So this tool is brilliant. Walt Disney created it. He said we will not have any customers in our park. We will only have guests. We will not have any employees. We’ll only have cast members. And with that simple re-expression of the relationship between the customer and the employees, the cast member, the guests.

John Jantsch (18:18.774)

Aromas aromas. Yeah

John Jantsch (18:25.32)

Yeah.

Duncan (18:47.514)

everybody got out of their river of thinking created this culture of hospitality. Our river of thinking is this, how might we make more money? How might we make our quarterly results? If we continue to ask that question, we’d put the gate price up at Walt Disney World by three percent, you’d have complained and we’d have made our quarterly results. You don’t get to iterate in a post pandemic world. You innovate or you die. So instead of asking the question we ask ourselves every day, because that’s our river of thinking, how might we make more money? We reversed the challenge and said,

How might we solve the biggest consumer pain point? Everybody knew what it was. It was called standing line. And I said, what if there were no lines? Didn’t know how to solve it at the time. And we looked outside of our industry for an insight for innovation. Most of the insights for innovation come from looking outside of your industry. It’s called Where Else? It’s in the book. And we noticed there was a very small pharmacy in Tokyo, Japan, using RFID technology to enable people not to stand in line. Welcome to the world of Disney’s Magic Band. Does it come in red or gray in the mail?

Of it does. Why? Because you’re like, right, the Star Wars edition. Does it come with matching merchandise? Of course it does. This is my room key today. I don’t check in or check out of a Disney Resort Hotel. It’s my theme park tickets, my reservations for my character meet and greets and my rides. Now it’s morphing towards the phone. I can pull for merchandise and have it sent to my hotel room or house, depending on how many times I touch it. I can order my food through my smartphone, walk into the restaurant when I want to walk in, sit at the table I want to sit at. The food comes fresh to me. Had we started by saying, how might we make more money? Yeah, we’d have made 3%.

but by reversing the challenge and asking how might we solve and getting out of our river of thinking, say, how might we solve the biggest consumer pain point? The average guest at Walt Disney World today has two hours free time they didn’t have six years ago each and every day. What does that result in? Record intent to recommend, record intent to return and record revenues. What do people do with their free time in Disney parks? They spend a bucket load of money.

John Jantsch (20:29.58)

Yeah. All right. Buy more stuff. Absolutely. Well, Duncan, this has been a fascinating interview. I’m not sure if you interviewed me or I interviewed you, but nonetheless, I think the listeners will be the better for it. I really appreciate you taking a moment to stop by. there someplace you’d invite people to find out more about your work and the imagination?

Duncan (20:40.906)

you

Duncan (20:54.228)

Well, they can normally find me in the Lammon Flag pub in Covent Garden, but if I’m not there, they could go to the imagination emporium dot com or Duncan Wardle.

John Jantsch (21:01.762)

Well, again, I appreciate you taking a moment to share and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road. Likewise.

Duncan (21:07.388)

Nice to meet you.

Why Two Weeks Notice Is Hurting Workplace Culture

Why Two Weeks Notice Is Hurting Workplace Culture written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Robert Glazer

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Robert Glazer, founder of Acceleration Partners, a global partner marketing agency, and author of the bestselling book Rethinking Two Weeks Notice. Robert is an expert in workplace culture, employee retention, and leadership. His work challenges outdated corporate practices and offers fresh strategies for creating thriving workplace environments.

During our conversation, Robert shared powerful insights on why the traditional “two weeks’ notice” practice is no longer effective and how companies can replace it with the Open Transition Program. By fostering psychological safety, improving communication, and rethinking job exit strategies, businesses can enhance employee retention, protect workplace culture, and build long-term loyalty.

Robert Glazer’s fresh perspective on employee transitions offers actionable strategies for improving employee retention, workplace culture, and corporate reputation. By replacing outdated practices like the two weeks’ notice with the Open Transition Program, businesses can create a supportive, loyal, and high-performing work environment.

Key Takeaways:

Why Two Weeks’ Notice Is Outdated
The traditional two weeks’ notice creates rushed transitions, strains relationships, and disrupts workplace culture. This outdated rule often leaves both employers and employees feeling dissatisfied and unsupported during career transitions.
The Open Transition Program: A Better Solution
Robert introduced the Open Transition Program, a proactive approach that encourages open conversations about career transitions. By providing a structured and supportive process, employees can leave on better terms, ensuring smoother transitions for all parties.
Psychological Safety Is the Foundation of Loyalty
Building psychological safety within the workplace allows employees to share their career aspirations and challenges without fear. This creates an environment of trust, where transitions can be managed with transparency and respect.
Strengthening Workplace Culture Through Better Transitions
Employee transitions are a crucial but often overlooked aspect of workplace culture. A thoughtful approach to resignations and career changes demonstrates respect for employees and reinforces a culture of trust and collaboration.
The Long-Term Benefits of Positive Transitions
Companies that implement better job exit strategies often see long-term benefits, including alumni referrals, Boomerang employees, and stronger client relationships. Treating employees well at the end of their tenure creates lifelong advocates for the brand.
Replacing Resentment with Respect
Traditional resignation practices can leave both employees and employers feeling resentful. The Open Transition Program focuses on respect, ensuring that employees leave on a positive note while protecting the company’s reputation.
The Cost of Ignoring Exit Strategies
Ignoring the importance of employee transitions can lead to high turnover, damaged client relationships, and a negative reputation. Implementing modern job exit strategies can mitigate these risks and foster long-term success.

Chapters:

[00:00] Opening
[00:34] Introduction to Robert Glazer
[01:20] Problems with the Traditional Two Weeks Notice
[03:45] Replacing Two Weeks Notice with the Open Transition Program
[05:30] Addressing Employee Performance Issues Early and Constructively
[10:04] Organizational Culture and Open Transition Programs
[17:24] Structured Employee Transitions and Client Retention

More About Robert Glazer:

Check out Robert Glazer’s Website
Connect with Robert Glazer on LinkedIn
Read Rethinking Two Weeks’ Notice: Changing the Way Employees Leave Companies for the Better by Robert Glazer

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.705)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Robert Glazer. He’s the founder and chairman of the board of Acceleration Partners, a global partner marketing agency and the recipient of numerous industry and company culture awards, including Glassdoor’s Employees Choice Awards two years in a row. He’s the author of the inspirational newsletter, Friday Forward. Everybody should subscribe and the number one Wall Street.

Robert Glazer (00:08.144)

Thank

John Jantsch (00:30.571)

journal USA Today and international bestselling author of five books. We’re going to talk about his latest today, Rethinking Two Weeks Notice, Changing the Way Employees Leave Companies for the Better. So Robert, welcome back to the show.

Robert Glazer (00:31.322)

Bye.

Robert Glazer (00:44.548)

John, thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (00:46.185)

So, the enemy is two weeks notice the standard practice of, of, Hey, I’m, I got a better offer. I’m giving you my two weeks notice or the other way around. You’re not working out here. You got two weeks notice. So that kind of deal. So, so why is that bad?

Robert Glazer (00:57.54)

Yeah, here’s two weeks severance. Yeah.

Robert Glazer (01:03.824)

There’s two problems that we have. Well, I’m a big fan of psychology and cognitive dissonance. And so the left side of our brains knows that we’re not in lifetime employment situation anymore. We don’t have pensions, people are going to work forever. And yet when people then leave our organization, the right side of the brain, we treat it more like the end of a marriage than the end of a professional sports contract, like this huge betrayal or otherwise. So we’re just not reconciling.

these two things and it produces bad outcomes. You have employees who leave employers and their managers and their mentors with a bad taste in their mouth. what they’re told by their parents, two weeks notice. That’s what you do, it’s respectful. But if you mentored someone for three years, you trusted them, you gave them a lot of rope and they were out a little bit and had doctor’s appointments and now they’re leaving in two weeks.

John Jantsch (01:44.791)

Yeah. Right.

Robert Glazer (01:55.874)

You don’t realize, I mean, I get a lot of back channel references over the years. Everything is layout. You’re going for a job, two jobs from now and someone reaches out and they’re like, yeah, John, like, I just remember how you left, right? And so endings really matter. If you’re planning a conference, your last speaker is really important. It’s sort of, it’s everything that people remember. And then similarly for the company, particularly in a service business, know, clients hate account turnover.

John Jantsch (02:10.486)

Yes.

John Jantsch (02:14.433)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (02:22.436)

rushing to get a new person, all these things. it just really is suboptimal. It’s just an outdated process. Most people just don’t know what to replace it with.

John Jantsch (02:30.423)

Yeah.

Right. Yeah. It’s funny. I, you know, in marketing circles, I mean, I pay a lot of attention to testimonials and reviews and things like that. And it’s amazing how really the perception that somebody has of the brand is not the brand, but Rusty, you know, the guy that fixed their boiler, you know, or whatever.

Robert Glazer (02:50.832)

Look, anyone listening to this, if you are either personally or professionally, whether it’s accounting firm or your marketing agency, there is nothing that hurts the reputation more of a professional services firm than account turnover. It’s the thing that puts it at risk. If you’ve ever been with a brand and you get three different managers in 12 months, you’re like, I’m out. I don’t want to do this anymore.

John Jantsch (03:03.501)

John Jantsch (03:07.777)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was too much work to get in a rhythm. all right. So I’m just going to jump right into your concept of what would replace it. The open transition program OTP. You got to love a framework. So Robert, let’s just go there. We’re going to talk about bits of it, but maybe set the table. What is, what is your, theory about replacing two weeks notice?

Robert Glazer (03:12.89)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (03:35.408)

Yeah. So, so it’s not just the theory because we practiced it for over 10 years and, and, but it is a theory, but it’s also, and I’ve had a lot of other leaders just with little bits and pieces who wanted to be better reached out. And look, we were building a great culture and just the two week notice thing felt antithetical to that. So we tried this concept of a transition program that said, look, when you’re ready to leave, we’ve created psychological safety, come and have an open, honest conversation with us. We will never walk anyone out the door that day if they come and have it. And likewise,

John Jantsch (03:41.185)

You

Robert Glazer (04:04.336)

our managers are gonna have honest conversations with you. And when we kind of sense that something’s not going right, we’ll see if we can fix it. And most problems, if you actually get to them earlier, they don’t become irrecoverable. If you wait long enough, then everyone’s pissed and they can’t get it. It almost doesn’t even matter what the original problem was. Now you’ve got this whole vicious trust cycle and stuff going on.

John Jantsch (04:21.921)

Yeah. Yeah.

Robert Glazer (04:26.266)

So we said, look, it’s okay, we’ll enter you into a transition program and maybe that’s 90 days, but you’re working here and you’re starting to interview and you’re communicating with your boss about that. And maybe our HR teams helping you with your resume. And we want you to be a productive alumni member. When it’s time to go, we want that to be a good outcome. And we’d rather do that and have less surprises and pay you to work here, understanding we’re gonna get some diminished capacity.

paying you severance or paying you kind of not to work or go away and blowing the thing up at the end.

John Jantsch (05:01.557)

Yeah, there’s a couple things you said there. I want to circle back to that idea that most problems are created by because we just don’t deal with them because we’re like, I, you know, an employee gets fired, but I should have done that three months ago, you know, kind of, kind of thing. And so it just really deteriorates. So, I think that’s, that’s, I think people have to realize that before they can start thinking about the open transition program, right?

Robert Glazer (05:26.768)

Right. is psychological safety is that there’s four components, psychological safety, open communication, mutual respect and commitment to be mutually beneficial outcomes. Psychological safety is the foundation of this. With it, you can have some good outcomes. it’s, we’re recording this in December. John, like if I am firing you this week, cause I am at my wits end where I was going to put you on a pip and you’re with your wits end. What the issue was probably emerged in March and.

John Jantsch (05:31.095)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (05:55.288)

If I had really, and it emerges some performance problems, but this is the issue. Like this is like Western medicine versus Eastern. If three people have a headache and I give them a Tylenol, it might help the headache, but one is dehydrated, one’s allergic to gluten and one has a brain tumor, right? Tylenol is not a cure for that. So I talk in this book around digging to the root and there’s three common roots. Problems the employee needs to fix, problems the employer can fix and wants to fix, and then problems that.

they’re not gonna fix. So I start noticing you’re a little off in March and instead of saying, John, you gotta do better or whatever, I’m like, John, like what’s going on? And you confide in me, because I’m your manager and you might say one of three totally different things. One, you lost your childcare and so you’re really tired and distracted or you’re going through a separation and so you’re just not there. And so was like, look, John, I can help with this, we can change your hours, but this is on you to fix. And generally, if you repair that problem,

your satisfaction with work and your performance is gonna improve. The second one you say, look, the last three people that we hired were at a higher level me, higher salary, I’m doing the same work, I was promised a raise years ago, like I’m just getting really frustrated, right? And if I look at that and I say, geez, John’s right, like we kind of overlooked him. I might say he’s not and that’s a different discussion, you he wants a but he’s right. So we give him the promotion he deserves, he gets a new manager and boom, it recovers.

John Jantsch (07:13.099)

Yeah. Right.

Robert Glazer (07:21.616)

The third one, the one not gonna fix, John comes and says, look, I know you told me a remote only company and I thought I wanted that, but I’m just, missing an office. And you know, that leads to a discussion like, hey John, we’re not getting offices. Like, so why don’t we help you find a better opportunity? So each of those circumstances might’ve showed up in a performance problem, but they have totally different roots and totally different solutions. And that’s why this program can have a good outcome. If I lean in early and we’re doing this transition in the third case,

you know, in July, that’s different because one of the common objections is like, you can’t do this, people are toxic, all this stuff. like, look, John’s toxic in December because this has been going on for six months and now I’m pissed at him and he’s pissed at me and otherwise. the other objection, well, people will, they’ll steal and they’ll do this and people when they’re leaving all this stuff. And to that, I would say if you have a lot of people that are constantly acting toxic and stealing stuff as they’re on the way out of your company,

John Jantsch (08:01.569)

the

John Jantsch (08:10.229)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (08:21.464)

Either you are really doing a terrible job in hiring or there’s something about your culture that’s making them that way. And either of those scenarios require a little bit of a deeper look.

John Jantsch (08:27.692)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:33.005)

Yeah, and that’s the real common idea behind the practice, right? It’s like, well, once we decided to fire this person, we like take away their computer, get them out the door, right? Because they’re going to do something bad.

Robert Glazer (08:41.68)

Even before that, I think in the three months when you know you have to fire John and you don’t, because John’s a super nice and likable guy, but he’s just not doing well, you start to distance him and push him away and sort of make him out to be a bad guy so that it makes it easier for you when you fire a bad guy. This would advocate the opposite. Like John, we talked about this John a few months ago, John, come into my office in July. Like John, I love you.

John Jantsch (08:45.195)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:59.467)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Robert Glazer (09:06.81)

but you know that you can’t be a 50 % quota on our sales team for four quarters in a row. This isn’t working. Do you wanna be in sales? What do you wanna do? Can we help you do something different? You can lean into the relationship while holding the performance component there, but I think it’s better to go that way than to, your brain can’t, this is cognitive distance 101. It can’t handle that John’s a good guy and a bad worker, so I have to make him a bad guy so that I feel better.

John Jantsch (09:11.117)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (09:24.777)

Yeah. Right.

John Jantsch (09:32.653)

Let’s use a Susie for our example instead of John. Okay. So, so you have, you have a company that, helps, people create partnerships that are beneficial to their businesses. that’s, you’ve written books about that, which is a very common thing for an author to do, to, and, and.

Robert Glazer (09:36.046)

Yeah, so you know, you’re not the first person to say that, but the next example will be Suzy.

John Jantsch (10:00.801)

business owner to do to write a book that supports their, what they do, what their core mission is. You’ve written a couple, what I would call people ops books, that probably on the S on the very, very surface, you know, don’t seem like they would support your business objective. And yet here we are. So why, why, is this topic? So are you so passionate about this topic of people?

Robert Glazer (10:23.28)

It’s a great question. I think yeah, we are a marketing agency, but we’re also a services firm. And after 20 years of building a services firm, you can be interchangeable with a psychologist, right? It is every issue is a people issue. There’s never a broken widget. There’s never a broken press or a shipment that’s late with FedEx. And so I, you know, as a building organization, you know, we were discovering, I wanted to build this great culture. It required rethinking a lot of the

practices I had seen and as we kind of learned things and tested things, my purpose is to share ideas that help people and organizations grow. So I became kind of passionate about being a little bit of a laboratory and if we found something that worked, try to share it with people or companies. To me, companies and great leadership are the solutions to our problems. If it’s not clear to you in 2025 that government is not the solution to your problems these days, then to me that’s the biggest impact.

that we can all have is that one great leader and one great organization spawns off a whole legion of great leaders and go off, a horrible leader and a horrible organization spawns off a whole group of traumatized people. So that’s sort of the why behind.

John Jantsch (11:38.393)

So as I read the definition of open transition program, OTP, there’s a lot of culture in it first. I mean, I don’t think you wake up and go, I read Robert’s book and now we’re going to do this. Right. I mean, there’s, there’s a, if there’s not a culture of trust and there’s not a culture of we want you to succeed, you know, but what’s best for you. mean, how do you kind of start to change that?

in order to adopt this. Cause I think a lot of companies could not physically adopt this.

Robert Glazer (12:09.872)

No, no, actually thank you for saying that because there’s two disclaimers that I forgot to make. One is, do not read this book as an employee and go into a company with a horrible culture and say, hey, I’m thinking about leaving or whatever when they walk everyone to the door in hoods because this is not a bottoms up thing. This is a tops up thing. And as you said, if you have a, and I say it in the book, if you have a crappy culture and you have poor psychological safety, this probably isn’t going to work.

John Jantsch (12:19.159)

Yeah

John Jantsch (12:22.926)

Hehehehehe

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (12:37.136)

So it needs to be built on a foundation of that. I mean, the quickest way in an organization to really try to improve psychological safety, which is not easy, is vulnerability and feedback, right? Leaders are sharing more, they’re vulnerable, they’re real, and people see that feedback is welcome and taken and acted on, right? Those tend to be two of the main doors that open that up. But yeah, this is not…

This is actually a program for good companies and good leaders. And I’m not saying like myself, but like myself, we’re frustrated that the two week thing just doesn’t feel compatible with what they’re trying to do, but no one knows any other way. So I’ve had people ask, like, look, if my company doesn’t operate this, can I do this as my team leader? And I was like, look, there’s nothing that would preclude you from having open and honest conversations, encouraging people to come, you know, if you got to give HR

John Jantsch (13:14.583)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:20.033)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (13:34.434)

notice you can wait till four weeks and let them know.

John Jantsch (13:38.443)

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it’s interesting. While this is sort of a prescription for the end game, it’s actually a bit of a roadmap for how to not have as many end games, isn’t it?

Robert Glazer (13:51.536)

Yeah, you don’t, look, we even talk to people about this when they join, you know, so they feel like if I happen to make a mistake, it’s not going to be a disaster. People are going to leave, right? So the question, and it could be two years and it could be great or it could be four years. The key is just how do they not leave poorly? And how do you turn that into what McKinsey has mastered? And I think what we’ve had a lot of success with is like alumni, you know, you can have.

John Jantsch (14:00.407)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:19.211)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (14:19.92)

your alumni at some point might be more than the number of employees you have. And they can either be net promoters and that distractors our alumni like McKinsey consultants who go in-house at companies and hire McKinsey. They go in-house at large brands and you know, they tend to hire us back to help with that. But that only works if they, if they left on a good note. So there’s a real long game to be played. You know, we live in the real time checking and glass door and review world. it, it, it, it, it’s everyone knows about.

scorched earth these days. Actually, people know more about it of the company that scorches earth rather than the candidate. I’m waiting for someone to build the inverse of Glassdoor. But it’s all interconnected and your brand’s kind of live out there. And if you can turn something that’s a negative into a positive, we put all this work into hiring well and culture and we’ve just totally ignored leaving.

John Jantsch (14:50.807)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:14.209)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is sort of the ultimate expression of culture, isn’t it?

Robert Glazer (15:19.79)

Yeah. How you treat someone out the door, probably the door probably said when you have nothing to gain from them, it’s the same thing. How do you, you you enter, know a lot of people interview and they always try get into a meal and try to see how they treat the help or the server. How do they treat people that, you know, they’re not trying to impress because they tend to show their true stripes.

John Jantsch (15:26.893)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:34.817)

Yeah,

John Jantsch (15:41.197)

Since you’ve been doing this for a while, I assume, do you actually consult with other companies to do this? I’m not sure if that’s part of your model.

Robert Glazer (15:48.816)

I haven’t, I’ve done some workshops or I do more speaking on the topic, but other than the, this is actually like, I had a lot of people reach out just from the Ted Talk and the HBR article and tell me, I went and decided to try to have one of these real conversations. It was so much better, but they didn’t have sort of the playbook. So this is the first time the sort of playbook has hit the market. And so, yeah, if there are companies that need help with it, I’m happy to talk to them about it.

John Jantsch (16:06.391)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

John Jantsch (16:18.765)

Well, I mean, it to me, it sort of perfect workshop, you know, kind of material. But again, I think the hard part is you got to still you got to come with the right frame of mind. This is not going to fix the wrong frame of mind, is it? Yeah. Yeah.

Robert Glazer (16:23.46)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (16:31.554)

No, you have to have the right company and the right people and there has to be a level of frustration and understand that the behavior of the employees will focus, will inherently go around what they see. There was a company I talked about in the book years ago that had won these cultures award and talked about their culture, super proud of their cultures. When I asked them how people left their company, they said, well, people give notice and then we ask them to leave that same.

because there’s a lot of risk. So they kind of march everyone out that same day with a box. And then like, if you think that anyone else is going to give you more than like, again, you’re worried about people stealing, they’re not going to steal at 10 a.m. on the day that they give notice, they’re going to do it the months beforehand because they see and they know that you’re going to throw them out that day. it is just this classic devil you don’t know versus devil you know.

John Jantsch (17:07.533)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:19.575)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:25.345)

Have you, have you determined any sort of metrics, employee morale, productivity? know, I mean, is there, I know this is in some ways just sort of a tweak to your culture anyway, and it’s not a giant pivot. So, you know, have you been able to determine maybe even anecdotally?

Robert Glazer (17:44.314)

can tell you it’s probably saved us just selfishly outside of the, look, it’s actually created, I can couple things. It’s also allowed for Boomerang employees because they leave well. A lot of employees would like to come back, but I think they’re even embarrassed based on how the end went or they gave two weeks notice and they don’t wanna call, they assume everyone hates them. So we’ve got a couple of our best employees be Boomerang employees. So I think that’s a great.

John Jantsch (17:48.417)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:55.733)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Well, truth.

John Jantsch (18:05.719)

Yeah, yeah.

Robert Glazer (18:11.92)

effort of it and then also just client retention. Like I know that there are clients we would have lost. I know that, you know, again, how this plays out in a services firm. if, you know, Tracy, we’ll pick on Tracy now, you know, Tracy gives two weeks notice and is my account manager on an account for maybe my PR firm.

John Jantsch (18:25.879)

Okay.

Robert Glazer (18:35.002)

So she comes on the weekly call and she says, hey Bob, I’m gonna leave in two weeks and there’s gonna be a replacement. I don’t know who it is yet, but they’ll reach out to you. Like I’m gonna be kind of pissed, right? But let’s say Tracy’s on a transition program. so they decide, so they find out about this two weeks later, they do some account shuffling and they bring in John. And John starts listening on the reverse week’s call, then leading in on week three and four and then building the rapport. And then by week eight or nine,

John Jantsch (18:43.063)

Yes, right.

John Jantsch (19:00.109)

Right.

Robert Glazer (19:03.834)

Tracy says, hey Bob, actually John’s gonna be taking over from here and now I know John, I’m already comfortable with John, like you just assuage this whole account turnover problem.

John Jantsch (19:12.941)

Yeah. Yeah. We actually do that even in a sales environment. you know, a of times people contact us cause they’ve read one of my books or something. and if I’m the one that’s having a meeting with them or I’m the one that starts, you know, they want John and, and so we’ve done that all along. It’s like, no, you get the team here. They are, they’re here on day one before you become a client. So that kind of leads me to, I don’t know if this is that kind of out there, but because you’re in a services business every now and then.

Robert Glazer (19:26.735)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:41.525)

A client needs two weeks notice. Right. Either, either you want to fire them or they want to fire you. Could some of this apply to a better outcome, you know, when you’re going to disengage with a client.

Robert Glazer (19:55.374)

Yeah, mean, ideally anyone would want time. Similar, we had some clients who, this goes a little to professional sports. You’ve got people hitting their free agency period, right? You know they’re not resigning, they’re not dogging it, they’re playing out their current contract knowing that they’re not gonna renew the contract. And I just think that if we could take a, yeah, no, usually they have their best year. Thank you, Scott Borass.

John Jantsch (20:06.434)

Right.

John Jantsch (20:17.633)

Well, sometimes they have their best year.

Robert Glazer (20:24.272)

And this is just, I think, where we could emulate a little more and take this a little less personally. People are not gonna work at your company forever. We’re just not, if they’re under 30, you talk to people under 30, they think two years is like a good term. Like that’s like, hey, I did my two years, it was great, like let’s move on. And so that’s the reality. And we just need to update our software for the version that we’re running.

John Jantsch (20:40.833)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (20:44.941)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:50.443)

Yeah. Yeah. I always kind of made a joke about the term when people talk about best practices. I’m like, well, there aren’t any better practices. Like, shouldn’t we try to do better practices as opposed to just what everybody does?

Robert Glazer (21:03.738)

Right? That’s funny. We always say at our company that we have a process for everything. And if you don’t know how to do it and you don’t have time or whatever, follow the existing process. But the goal is to upgrade all the existing processes. The difference is we want you to upgrade it for everyone, just not for yourself, right? Upgrade the software, upgrade the app. If you found a better way, do it and share it, right? Don’t, we don’t, want to be delivering a consistent service, but we don’t want it to just be consistently outdated.

John Jantsch (21:14.05)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:25.473)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:31.691)

Yeah. Well, Robert’s always great to visit with you. You are not only obviously building a strong culture at your own organization, you’re really contributing so much to the thinking on around the topic, even as a marketing company here. Here, most people think marketers are just cold blooded money grabbers, right? Just kidding.

Robert Glazer (21:57.604)

That’s salespeople.

John Jantsch (21:58.669)

That’s true. So I appreciate you taking a few months to about where can people find out more about your work and obviously more about rethinking Two Weeks Notice and that workshop that’s surely soon to be coming.

Robert Glazer (22:10.308)

Yeah, you can download the book anywhere that books are sold or audio books are sold. You can also go to robertglazer.com. That’s where all of my books, podcasts, newsletter, everything is on there. If you click on the Friday Forward Newsletter, you’ll then see a tab for rethinking two weeks notice. I have the book up on my sub stack and you can download the first, you can read the first three chapters totally free and see if it’s something that grabs you and you’ll get.

plenty of information even from those first three chapters.

John Jantsch (22:43.615)

Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you soon out there on the road.

Robert Glazer (22:47.78)

John, thanks for having me again.

Marketing for Small Businesses: Why Leadership Matters

Weekend Favs January 11th

Weekend Favs January 11th written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

My weekend blog post routine includes posting links to a handful of tools or great content I ran across during the week.

Beautiful.ai: Automatically creates professional, polished slides with AI-powered layouts and time-saving automation.
Canva (Presentations): Offers stunning templates, drag-and-drop editing, and AI-driven design suggestions for all skill levels.
Popi.ai: An AI-powered platform that streamlines customer support by automating queries, delivering personalized experiences, and optimizing workflows with advanced natural language processing.

These are my weekend favs; I would love to hear about some of yours – Connect with me on Linkedin!

If you want to check out more Weekend Favs you can find them here.

Solving the Marketing Leadership Gap for Small Business (Marketing Leadership as a Service)

Solving the Marketing Leadership Gap for Small Business (Marketing Leadership as a Service) written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Small business marketing can feel like an endless checklist: create content, run Google Ads, post on social media, and optimize for SEO. The advice is everywhere, but what if you’ve tried it all and still don’t see results?

If this sounds familiar, you’re not alone. Many small business owners struggle to create marketing strategies that deliver measurable growth. The issue isn’t always a lack of effort—it’s often a lack of leadership. Enter Marketing Leadership as a Service (MLaaS)—a powerful solution that bridges the gap between effort and impact by providing the strategic guidance small businesses need to thrive.

As the founder of Duct Tape Marketing, I’ve spent over 30 years helping small businesses transform their marketing efforts into a growth-driving machine. My mission has always been clear: simplify small business marketing and make it actionable.

In this blog, I’ll break down the critical concept of the marketing leadership gap and how addressing it can unlock your business’s full potential. Whether you’re a small business owner or a consultant looking to guide your clients, you’ll leave with practical steps to create a marketing system that works.

Table of Contents

Strategy: The Foundation

Building a System

Marketing Leadership as a Service: The Strategic Edge for Small Businesses

How Small Business Marketing Has Evolved

Adapting to New Challenges in Small Business Marketing

Turning the Tide

Targeting Your Ideal Customer

Crafting Your Value Proposition

Connect Directly and Deeply

Conclusion

Marketing for Small Businesses: Why Leadership Matters

Here’s a truth I’ve learned in over 30+ years of working with small businesses: most don’t fail at marketing because they lack tactics. They fail because they lack marketing leadership. This is where Marketing Leadership as a Service becomes a game changer, offering businesses access to expert-level strategy and execution without the burden of a full-time hire.

Without a clear strategy, marketing efforts often feel scattered. You might have a polished website, post on social media regularly, or run digital ads—but if these efforts aren’t connected to a bigger vision, they’re unlikely to deliver the results you need.

Marketing leadership is the missing link. It’s about orchestrating your efforts so that every tactic aligns with your business goals and works together as part of a system. With the right leadership in place—whether through an internal team or Marketing Leadership as a Service—small business marketing becomes less about throwing spaghetti at the wall and more about building a reliable engine for growth.

Strategy: The Foundation

A good strategy is like a roadmap for your marketing—it keeps you focused and ensures every move you make supports your business goals.

It’s all about identifying where you can improve and connecting your marketing efforts so they work together. If you’re not sure where to start, getting expert advice can make all the difference. And don’t shy away from trying out different approaches tailored to your business. Take a step back and think about where you are now versus where you want to be—it’s a great way to spark new ideas and see the bigger picture.

Building a System

Instead of chasing the latest marketing tactics, create a system. This ensures long-term returns, not just short-term buzz. It’s like a marketing machine running constantly, bringing in new leads.

Building your marketing as an asset ensures it generates revenue instead of simply being an expense. Think of your marketing like an investment where your money can make even more money for you in return.

Marketing Leadership as a Service: The Strategic Edge for Small Businesses

Marketing Leadership as a Service provides small businesses with access to high-level strategic marketing expertise without the need to hire a full-time executive. It’s a flexible, cost-effective solution that fills the leadership gap, aligning your marketing efforts with business goals to drive measurable growth. By combining expert guidance with actionable strategies, this service ensures your marketing operates as a cohesive system, delivering long-term results instead of scattered, short-term wins.

How Small Business Marketing Has Evolved

Small business marketing has come a long way. Back in the day, it was all about print ads, direct mail, and word-of-mouth—simple but limited. Then the internet changed everything, bringing websites, email, social media, and PPC ads. Suddenly, small businesses had access to big opportunities, but it also got a lot more complicated with SEO, analytics, and content marketing to figure out.

Fast forward to today, and it feels like everyone’s saying you need to do it all—social media, blogs, videos, ads—you name it.

But here’s the catch: without a solid strategy tying it all together, it’s just a lot of effort without consistent results.

That’s why the businesses that succeed now are the ones that focus on leadership, clear goals, and building systems that actually work long-term. It’s not about doing more; it’s about doing the right things in the right way.

Adapting to New Challenges in Small Business Marketing

This year has been a game-changer for small businesses. Social media and other digital channels have made marketing move faster than ever. One agency owner I spoke to mentioned how tough it’s been to get new clients through referrals, pointing to a bigger need for better client experiences.

And they’re not alone. According to a recent NerdWallet report, 93% of small-business owners face challenges, with 54% citing difficulty in finding or retaining customers as their biggest hurdle. This highlights a critical need for marketing leadership to navigate these challenges effectively.

Marketing Leadership as a Service steps in as a game-changing solution, offering small businesses the strategic expertise they need to attract, engage, and retain customers. By aligning all marketing efforts with a clear strategy, businesses can turn these challenges into opportunities for growth.

Turning the Tide

Rapid changes demand adaptation to stay competitive.

Focus on four cornerstones: the 3 Cs of marketing (Customer, Competition, Company) and systems. Analyze these areas to establish marketing systems for lead generation.

Research shows 80% of customers expect personalized attention.

Creating systems involves defining steps from start to finish. Consider how leads interact with your business throughout the lead cycle.

Remember the significant impact of customer reviews on your overall reputation and word-of-mouth referrals.

Targeting Your Ideal Customer

Avoid the trap of targeting everyone. Focusing on your ideal customer is crucial for small business marketing. This targeted marketing strategy , according to SBA guidelines, improves return by focusing on prospects that fit your criteria. A well-structured, targeted marketing plan aligns efforts with returns.

Crafting Your Value Proposition

Differentiate your business. A strong value proposition demonstrates why customers should choose you over competitors.

Connect Directly and Deeply

Business cards, whether they’re physical or digital, are still a great way to make connections. Pair them with a quick, memorable intro about your business to leave a lasting impression at events or meetups.

Get involved locally by joining community events, and don’t forget to tap into online opportunities like influencer and social media marketing to expand your reach.

If you’re handling your own marketing, hire people who work well with your team. Keep up with tools and tips for things like SEO, eCommerce, and website hosting to stay on top of your game. Choosing the right tools and tech can make a big difference in how smoothly your business runs and how fast it grows.

Conclusion

Marketing for small businesses can be tricky, but it’s key to growth. The best approach? Focus on solid strategies, keep an eye on the data, and adapt as you go. Instead of chasing every new trend, partner with a leader—or a service like Marketing Leadership as a Service—to build a system for your marketing. That way, it becomes a long-term investment—not just another expense.

Small businesses have a real edge when it comes to connecting with customers and understanding what they need. By prioritizing leadership and using your resources wisely, you can hit your marketing goals and set your business up for lasting success.

Explore the Duct Tape Marketing Fractional CMO System and take control of your marketing to achieve measurable, repeatable results. Schedule a consultation today, and let’s build the thriving business you’ve always envisioned.

I know the challenges of starting a marketing agency and running a business firsthand—the endless research, the trials, the errors. It wasn’t easy, but it taught me invaluable lessons. From these experiences and over 28 years of trial and error, I developed a proven marketing system that has since helped countless businesses sustainably grow and scale.

Whether you’re a business owner aiming to grow (We’ve helped 1000s of SMBs 2x-10x their business) or an agency looking to enhance your client services (over 500 agencies globally have licensed our system), the Duct Tape Marketing Fractional CMO System can be tailored to meet your needs and boost your success. All it takes is the right strategy.

Ready to see real results? Let’s connect. Schedule a strategy session with our team today.

The Secret to Smarter, Focused Productivity

The Secret to Smarter, Focused Productivity written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Tommy Mello

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Jay Papasan, a bestselling author, VP of strategic content at Keller Williams Realty International, and co-creator of The One Thing. Jay has dedicated his career to helping individuals and businesses achieve extraordinary results by simplifying priorities and mastering the art of focus. His expertise spans habit formation, goal setting, and purposeful decision-making, all aimed at fostering clarity and productivity in a world filled with distractions.

During our conversation, Jay shared powerful insights from his book and personal experiences, highlighting how small shifts in mindset and behavior can lead to transformational outcomes. From adopting effective morning habits to aligning decisions with core values, Jay broke down actionable strategies to help you navigate competing priorities, improve time management, and achieve sustainable business growth.

Key Takeaways:

Focus on the One Thing That Matters Most
Instead of juggling multiple priorities, identify and commit to the one task or goal that will make everything else easier or unnecessary.
Embrace the 66-Day Challenge for Habit Formation
Research shows it takes an average of 66 days to form lasting habits. Commit to this timeframe to develop successful habits that align with your goals.
Start Your Day with Morning Habits That Boost Clarity
Before picking up your phone, review your goals for the day. This simple shift ensures you prioritize what matters most over distractions.
Simplify to Achieve Business Growth
Focus on fewer initiatives executed at a higher level to improve team productivity and accountability, leading to sustainable success.
Align Decisions With Core Values
Use your core values as a filter for decision-making. If a choice doesn’t align with your top priorities, it’s a clear “no.”
Make Productivity Accessible to All
Writing and communicating at a simple, clear level—like the fifth-grade reading standard Jay uses—ensures your message resonates with a wider audience.
Leverage Strategic Planning for Long-Term Success
Build a one-page business plan with clear goals and initiatives. Simplicity fosters clarity and alignment across teams.
Purposeful Living Creates Work-Life Balance
By focusing on meaningful goals and eliminating unnecessary tasks, you can achieve a balance that supports both personal and professional success.

Chapters:

[00:00] Opening
[00:09] Welcoming Jay Papasan
[01:44] The Longevity and Impact of The One Thing
[06:34] Understanding the Concept of The One Thing and Applying Core Values
[12:03] Impactful Habits for Personal and Professional Success
[17:43] Evolution and Offerings of The One Thing Training Company

More About Jay Papasan:

Check out Jay Papasan’s Website
Connect with Jay Papasan on LinkedIn
Read The ONE Thing: The Surprisingly Simple Truth About Extraordinary Results by Tommy Mello

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.92)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jay, and my guest today is Jay Papasan. He’s a bestselling author and VP of strategic content for Keller Williams Realty International. He’s also the CEO of the One Thing Training Company, productive and co-owner of the Papasan Property Group in Austin, Texas. He’s co-authored several bestselling books, including one we’re going to talk a little bit about today, The One Thing.

Surprisingly simple truth about extraordinary results. So Jay, welcome to the show.

Jay Papasan (00:31.209)

Hey, thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

John Jantsch (00:33.61)

So I do want to ask about your title. What does a VP of strategic content do?

Jay Papasan (00:40.412)

It’s not what you think. I actually transitioned roles. was running three big departments and then got to focus again around the things I love. And when I was running our big marketing team here for about three years, if you’ve ever run a marketing team, you get lots of cold DMS on LinkedIn and everywhere else. So I was like, okay, I’m going to come up with something that is anti-marketing. So I like strategy. I love creating content. So I just made up a title.

John Jantsch (00:41.987)

You

Jay Papasan (01:09.332)

It doesn’t really mean anything. I don’t think there’s a lot of them out there. So I don’t get many cold DMs, so I consider it a success.

John Jantsch (01:16.654)

Yeah, well, I just assumed that it meant you made up all the content ideas and then told other people to do them.

Jay Papasan (01:24.172)

That is some of what I do. So I’m a part of five podcasts. I help create them. And I do some editorial direction, which is in my past, I was an editor. But I also put my fingers on the keyboards for our books and newsletters.

John Jantsch (01:25.486)

Hahaha

John Jantsch (01:41.067)

So the one thing, book, I read, did come out 11 years ago, 12 years ago? I read it when it came out.

Jay Papasan (01:47.468)

It came out April 1st, 2013, so 11 years ago.

John Jantsch (01:50.22)

Yeah, okay. Still sells year in, year out tons, has sold millions, translated into many languages. Is there anything that you would put your finger on? I mean, it’s one thing for a book to be really popular, but to remain that popular. Is there anything that you’ve identified that you think keeps it in selling year in, out?

Jay Papasan (02:10.412)

I’m a book nerd and my publisher is an engineer. So we probably overthink this to be honest. So Gary was very clear he wanted to write a timeless book. And I’ve had writing professors point out like you can’t use words like Kleenex and Frisbee because nobody will know what they mean in a hundred years. That’s a tissue. That’s a throwing disc. And strangely this guy who started an upstart real estate company thought the same way. So we did set out to write

a book that was more timeless than timely, which is counterintuitive in publishing. It’s very accessible. I ran the whole book through a program called the Hemingway app, and it’s written at a fifth grade reading level. And I had read research that the bestselling authors of all time write at a very surprisingly low grade level, like Hemingway fourth grade. And I’ve trained myself, if I’m honest, I don’t publish anything that’s higher than a sixth grade reading level.

John Jantsch (02:51.182)

Yes.

Jay Papasan (03:08.544)

because we want the widest possible audience to find it accessible and it’s not work to read. And then I do think that we got a little bit of timing. That would be the other big one. We showed up, our book showed up right when smartphones were really everywhere. Our kids had them, they had them in schools and we had so many opportunities to connect and also obligations to do. People didn’t know how to sort through their priorities. And here we are with the book called The One Thing.

John Jantsch (03:13.827)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:37.613)

Yes.

Jay Papasan (03:37.76)

which kind of promised we can kind of help you simplify and focus.

John Jantsch (03:41.654)

Yeah. So a movie that shows up in the book early on of Jack Parlin’s kind of the famous Curly character, say, what’s the secret of life? One thing. What, if any, that impact?

Jay Papasan (03:55.98)

And I think about him on stage at the Oscars, like at age 85 doing one-handed pushups too. Like that’s my memory of that guy. He was legit.

John Jantsch (04:01.11)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What if any role or impact did that have in your thinking?

Jay Papasan (04:11.08)

It was a sideways thing. Gary and I had come up with the idea of the book in 2008. We spent about four and a half years researching and writing it with the team. And we had never actually threw that in, in the mix. But when we were starting to get clued to the finish line and teach it and socialize it, everybody kept coming up and going, well, it’s this all came from city slickers, right? And we’re like, no. So we actually went back and very late in the process added it to the book because

John Jantsch (04:12.781)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (04:33.614)

Yeah

Jay Papasan (04:39.966)

It was just an expectation. If the book is called The One Thing, that movie was so big, everyone expected it to be connected, so we did. And it’s perfect. I I can’t believe that wasn’t the connection.

John Jantsch (04:41.816)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (04:48.418)

Yeah.

Yeah, so surely somebody has stopped you at some point and said, but Jay, what’s the one thing?

Jay Papasan (04:59.148)

All the time, right? And that’s honestly what we do in our training company. We do try to help people figure out what matters most. a friend of ours, Sean Blanc, he was sharing with me, like lot of times he works with busy entrepreneurs and he goes, they look up one day and realize that 93 % of their success comes down to two hours a week. It’s just hard to believe that that could be so important those two hours.

John Jantsch (05:02.006)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (05:29.036)

Thank

John Jantsch (05:29.474)

Yeah. You know, I wonder, I’ve often, in fact, I wrote about this years ago, so more than one dude, I guess. If somebody just said, look, I’m just going to start working 20 hours a week. That’s just all the time I got. Cause I got this other thing, whatever it is. Would they be any less productive? I wonder.

Jay Papasan (05:47.936)

think if they’re committed to a big goal, they’d be more productive. So like, I don’t know, I’ve written about the power of constraints and my wife launched her career just as soon as our youngest child was being dropped off for daycare. And she said, I will only sell between 9 a.m. and 2 p.m. because I’m going to be there for drop off and I’m going to be there for pickup. And she was rookie of the year and sold like 85 homes. And it’s not so much.

John Jantsch (05:51.095)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:12.344)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jay Papasan (06:16.18)

What she did, what she did is what all successful real estate salespeople do. It’s all the stuff that she chose not to do. She wasn’t hanging out at the water cooler. So I think of it like the day before vacation miracle, right? The day before vacation, you are a very productive individual and it’s not because of what you’re doing. You’re doing the right stuff. It’s you’re not doing any of the nonsense.

John Jantsch (06:23.192)

Yeah, right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:37.74)

Yeah, yeah. On April 14th, everybody has time to get their last minute tax preparation done, So what are some of the kind of common, especially in a book that is seemingly simple, it’s not a large book, 150 pages, something like that. What are some of the common misperceptions when people hear that this simple concept?

Jay Papasan (06:43.116)

Yeah, you got it.

Jay Papasan (07:03.444)

You know, when they hear the one thing, I think they think only one thing. And I think that really stops a lot of people in their tracks. I mean, maybe it sells a lot of books because they’re like, well, I want to know what that is. But the reality is we want people to understand it in a given moment, right? This week, this month, this hour, you should be clear about what your number one priority is. And so if you you pick up the US edition of the book, it’s white hardcover.

John Jantsch (07:05.698)

Yeah, right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:26.232)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (07:31.946)

We never put testimonials on the back. We never did any of the traditional stuff. We always had a question because we were very clear that what was the one thing we wanted people to do when they put down this book? We wanted them ask, like, what’s my one thing? And we wanted to make the book into a, like I’ve heard from people who flip the cover around on their bookshelf so that they were always staring at the question just to remind themselves, am I acting in my priorities or am I messing around right now?

John Jantsch (07:44.994)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (07:59.81)

So there’s a huge body of work talking about core values in a business and finding your why and your purpose. I’ve had a lot of people go through those exercises and, and, and end up saying, well, now what, what do I do with that? do you feel like you’ve sort of crossed that bridge?

Jay Papasan (08:12.993)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (08:18.888)

Yeah, I mean, when we were preparing to talk, like I shared, one of the things that since the book came out, I think I’ve gotten really good at is making decisions based on my core values. And core values isn’t actually in the book. We talk about purpose. And I’ve taught the book, I don’t know, four or 500 times now, corporate and private audiences. And everybody kind of struggles with this idea of what’s my purpose, what’s my mission. And a lot of times they’ll pull together a statement

John Jantsch (08:32.398)

Yeah, yeah.

Jay Papasan (08:47.616)

that doesn’t feel wholly authentic because it’s too weighty. I’ve found that core values is a gateway drug and I could give you the long story, but I won’t. What we teach people to do is identify what are your top three core values. And when you have a big decision, it should be a nine out of 10 on all three if possible, but certainly on number one. And mine are impact, family and abundance.

John Jantsch (08:49.816)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jay Papasan (09:11.872)

And we teach people like, I know what family means. It’s not just my immediate family. It’s my friends and partners. It’s the people I treat like family. And I mean, I actually got some of this from a fellow named Stu McLaren, who’s big in our space. He sold his first business because of this realization from reading our book and essentialism. So if you see my phone and I’ll hold it up for the people watching, I’ve got my core values as my screen saver.

John Jantsch (09:19.96)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (09:37.986)

Mm-hmm.

Jay Papasan (09:39.732)

I’ve read that you see your phone screen 87 times a day. I’ve got them on my one page goal sheet. I’ve got them front and center with my coach. So what I’ve tried to do is make it impossible for me to forget the things I’ve decided are important to me so that I can try to let my decisions be informed by them. But how do we make it practical? Is it a nine out of 10?

John Jantsch (10:03.928)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jay Papasan (10:06.09)

Or is it a five out of 10? Like that should tell you something. That’s not a heck yes, that’s a heck no.

John Jantsch (10:12.672)

So I’m sure that in your teaching, somebody says, okay, here’s the process, or you teach, here’s the process for identifying your one thing in a sea of competing priorities. Is there a process?

Jay Papasan (10:29.142)

There is. what I thought, I was worried. Gary, you know, he’s the self-made billionaire. He was the coach of all the top people in our industry for so long. He had more faith in it than I did because he’d lived it longer. But when someone asked the focusing question, what’s the one thing I can do such that by doing it, everything else will be easier, unnecessary? It’s a mouthful, but it’s a big question. I even asked him, I said, what if people don’t know the answer? He goes, you might be surprised.

John Jantsch (10:30.094)

Jay Papasan (10:58.342)

And having taught this to probably 10,000 people, I’ll tell you 98 % of people know what their one thing is, and they just are too busy to stop to ask the question. And usually they’ll tell you they feel guilty for not doing it. They’re walking around with a bad case of the shoulds. I know I should be doing this. I know I should be doing this. What they don’t have is a framework for them to live their intentions. And so we tried to help them have a simple framework.

for identifying that thing, which most people can, but then how do I put it on my calendar and live my schedule?

John Jantsch (11:32.366)

Yeah. Yeah. So, so that gets us to habits. This is a lot about habits, right? Because I think, I think a lot of times people can have a, they can go to a weekend workshop or whatever, have the aha, you know, but just like everything, if I say I’m going to lose weight, well, there’s some habits I’m going to have to change or develop, right? So what have you found have been the habits that people need to change or develop to really bring this to life?

Jay Papasan (11:49.707)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (11:57.878)

So in our research, we discovered that as near as we can tell factually, takes 66 days on average to form a habit. That was a discovery because we walked into it thinking it was 21 or 30 days. And so it takes longer than people think. But we’ve done, actually trademarked 66 day challenge just for the fun of it. And every year we lead three or four cohorts. So I’ve actually got good data on the habits that people have found most impactful. So I’ll share with you.

John Jantsch (12:21.57)

Huh. Yeah.

Jay Papasan (12:27.306)

I’m writing about it in a few weeks, but I’ll give you the sneak peek. The most impactful habit we ever did as a group cohort was getting people to look at their goals before they picked up their phone. And I underestimated it, I’ll be honest. But when you know what you’ve actually said yes to, it becomes a lot easier to say no to everything else. And almost everyone you know and I know, within 10 minutes of getting up, they’re on their phone.

John Jantsch (12:39.458)

Mm.

John Jantsch (12:50.21)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (12:56.707)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (12:57.236)

and they’re usually on social media, email or text. And those are places that other people’s priorities live. And so we had the highest reported overall halo effect when people just took five minutes in the morning to look at their goals before they went about their business. They did more work, they did it earlier, they were more focused, less distracted, like weird stuff, like fewer dirty dishes. So…

John Jantsch (13:22.626)

Jay Papasan (13:23.584)

There you go. I mean, I could go through habit after habit that has impacted me, but in terms of the ones that we’ve measured, that’s been by far the most successful.

John Jantsch (13:32.674)

Yeah. And I think it makes a ton of sense because especially, well, anybody, but I’ve been an entrepreneur all my life. So I’ll use my example. mean, we just, from the minute you get in front of your computer, you’re pulled in a thousand directions. it feels like, and so you’re right, just the simple habit of reminding yourself, yeah, I said I was going to do that. is, is so I could see the power.

Jay Papasan (13:45.632)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (13:55.318)

think I heard John Maxwell say this, so this is not a J original. He just said, some yeses are bigger than others. When you said, do, you knew that you were saying no to everybody else. And he’s like, I just remember thinking, wow, we need more clear yeses in our life so that we can say no.

John Jantsch (13:58.285)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:06.636)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:15.414)

So obviously this concept applies to any human being, right? Any individual. But what have you seen the impact it’s made on business leaders in kind of growing or scaling or changing their company, making it more sustainable, all those kinds of goals?

Jay Papasan (14:32.776)

There’s been a couple of things I’ve seen in sales teams. What I’ve seen them do is instead of going big goals, big action, they’ve actually gotten a little bit clear about being a little bit more precise about what they’re going to do to hit the goal. So they tend to do fewer things at a higher level. And one team, I remember at a huge biomedical company went from the bottom quartile to the top three in two quarters, and they focused on one product and one customer.

And they just used the book and they just said, how simple can we make it? And the challenge why people don’t like to do that is that when there’s complexity, people have places to hide. If you say you’re just going to do one thing, it’s yes or no, did you do it? And that’s a huge amount of accountability. So one, I’ve found people grow their revenue by simplifying their sales funnels hugely. And the other one from a team is

John Jantsch (15:11.681)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:15.372)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:24.248)

Yes, yes, yes.

Jay Papasan (15:27.574)

We teach people to do a very simple business plan. Everything’s on one page and it’s got to be like 12 point type, no cheating. And if it’s that simple, like one goal, three big initiatives, everybody kind of knows what their role is. And so we found two things like the power of focus and the power of clarity in business are very underrated.

John Jantsch (15:50.734)

100%. Do you find, I know you probably have worked with people that have been very successful that get at some point get to a place where they’re like, okay, I’ve done a lot of things. What’s next? So is that then a different reframing of the one thing or is it just a, okay, I just need to sit down and re-strategize.

Jay Papasan (16:12.652)

I think that we have seasons in our life. I do think that, you know, I know that something I read about millennials say that they’ll have as many as like 14 careers in their life. And I’ve been at the same place for 24 years and my dad was at the same place for 25. Gary’s been doing the same thing for 45. But if I actually step back, I’ve gone through phases about every seven years. And the one constant for me has been books.

John Jantsch (16:24.257)

just look at LinkedIn. It’s crazy.

John Jantsch (16:37.048)

Yeah, yeah.

Jay Papasan (16:41.568)

That has been the through line of my life. So there is a theme, but what I’ve been doing around it has evolved and changed. So I’m open to that. Like, I don’t think that just because that’s your one thing that you’re a prisoner to it. But what I do find is that if you can make peace with the boredom of success, which most people struggle with, their one thing will open up so many doors to things they didn’t expect. So I don’t know. Like I don’t.

John Jantsch (16:55.096)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (17:08.81)

I think that we can always ask the question, has my one thing changed?

John Jantsch (17:12.238)

Yeah. Well, the world’s changed around us, right? Every, every five years. So we better be at least checking in, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So, I know you have the, read it in the bio, the name of it, let me get it right. The one thing training company. do people show, is that something that people buy from you custom or do you have routine? Like I can show up and we’ll do this three day thing. How does that work?

Jay Papasan (17:14.634)

Yeah!

Jay Papasan (17:17.992)

Nimble. Yeah with AI and everything like now, especially as writers. I my goodness

Jay Papasan (17:41.066)

You know, it’s evolving. When I took over, think we had 24 SKUs. And I remember sitting down at a mastermind and someone said, dude, your first job is to one thing, you’re one thing business. I was like, yeah, I heard you. and we’ve simplified and now we have basically one model for like what people come to us for is I want to either run my life or my business using these principles. So I worked with our head coach, got named Jordan Fried. He’s been my coach for the last few years. We built out our training program.

John Jantsch (17:45.738)

huh.

John Jantsch (17:51.026)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:03.651)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (18:10.624)

Here’s where we start, here’s where we finish, and here’s how we keep going. And we now just kind of offer that in different formats. Do you want to do a group coaching model? Do you want us to come to your company and teach it? Do you want us to do one-on-one coaching? Right? We have different ways we deliver fundamentally our one thing process. It’s a little different for big businesses. We have some Fortune 50 companies, and there’s a lot more rules with them, that’s for sure. But we do…

John Jantsch (18:31.48)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:39.074)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (18:40.32)

We fundamentally today teach people how to lead themselves and lead their teams using these principles and we offer it in different mediums. That would be the simplest way I could explain it. And we just get leads on the website. Right now we don’t even do cold outreach.

John Jantsch (18:57.73)

How much of a competitive advantage or competitive asset do you believe the one thing is for Keller Williams?

Jay Papasan (19:07.35)

We’ve got two signature books. So what’s weird, the one thing has sold 3.6 million copies in all editions now. It’ll be 3.7 in the next few months. Our first book we co-wrote together and we published it in 2003, it was called The Millionaire Real Estate Agent. That sold 1.6. In an industry at that time of about 800,000, today it’s over a million. Both of them are perennial.

John Jantsch (19:33.157)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (19:37.106)

sellers. They’re not always on the bestseller list anymore. But I do believe when people say, look up and say, you wrote the book on X, it provides a certain amount of thought leadership. It’s very hard to measure. You know this with PR and marketing, but the exposure, I have to think every time someone walked through an airport, they saw Gary Keller’s name on a bestselling book that has to provide a certain amount of authority. And I can tell you, I talked to

John Jantsch (19:52.568)

Sure, sure.

Jay Papasan (20:05.696)

the people who run our franchises, and I just always ask the question, how many of you had someone show up to join your team without you recruiting them because they read a book? And there’s usually always about 10 % of the room will raise their hands. So it attracts talent, it provides thought leadership. I can’t measure it, but I know that we grew about 40 % year over year for six years after the first book came out.

John Jantsch (20:17.826)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:31.468)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think there’s no question. There’s some attribution there. Well, Jay, I. Yeah, no, no question. Absolutely. I mean, I have a similar story when my first book came out. No question. Again, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Ductate Marketing podcast. mean, it’s really amazing to that you think of the legacy that this book certainly is created for you and.

Jay Papasan (20:36.032)

I think it’s a great reason for business people to write books.

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (20:59.85)

It’s funny. I feel the same way about you. Like you’re on like my special shelf with Al Ries and Trout and Seth Godin. Like you’re in the hallowed halls of marketing writers for me. So I’m kind of sitting here and thinking, wow, I’m so lucky to be on your podcast. So thank you for having me. I’m serious about that.

John Jantsch (21:06.958)

You

John Jantsch (21:14.414)

Well, I appreciate that, Jay. And again, I appreciate you taking a few moments and hopefully we’ll run into you again soon one of these days out there on the road.

Jay Papasan (21:24.566)

can’t wait.