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How To Build Great Leadership Teams

How To Build Great Leadership Teams written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Marketing Podcast with Jack McGuinness

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Jack McGuinness. Jack is a management consultant with over 35 years of experience. After serving with the U.S. Army’s 10th Mountain Division, he helped build a successful boutique management consulting firm where he served as COO for 13 years. In 2009, he co-founded a new firm, Relationship Impact, a consulting firm focused on working with CEOs to unleash the potential of their leadership teams. He has a new book called — Building Great Leadership Teams: A Practical Approach to Unleashing the Full Potential of your Teams.

Key Takeaway:

Leadership teams have an enormous impact on their organizations. Dysfunctional teams hold their organizations back but great leadership teams accelerate their health and productivity. In this episode, I talk with the co-founder of Relationship Impact, Jack McGuinness, about what a great leadership team looks like, how it feels to be part of one, and what it takes to build a great one.

Questions I ask Jack McGuinness:

  • [2:45] What is this book going to bring to the leadership genre?
  • [3:40] Why is being a leader such a challenge for entrepreneurs sometimes?
  • [7:31] How do you start looking at who should be on the team?
  • [10:47] When you see teams break down, what’s the single greatest factor in the demise?
  • [12:13] Do you think that it’s a good idea for teams to intentionally seek diversity?
  • [13:23] Is what you’re talking about just as much a retention and recruitment tool as it is a productivity tool?
  • [15:30] What is the leader’s job in a team?
  • [17:52] So if I’m a leader or I’m on a team, and I’m thinking I need to pick up this book, what am I going to find in the book?
  • [18:59] Where can people find out more about your book and your work?

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John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the female startup club, hosted by Doone Roison, and brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. If you’re looking for a new podcast, the female startup club shares tips, tactics and strategies from the world’s most successful female founders, entrepreneurs, and women in business to inspire you to take action and get what you want out of your career. One of my favorite episodes who should be your first hire, what’s your funding plan, Dr. Lisa Cravin shares her top advice from building spotlight oral. Listen to the female startup club, wherever you get your podcasts.

John Jantsch (00:49): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Jack McGuinness. He is a management consultant with over 35 years in the business. After serving with the us Army’s 10th mountain division. He helped build a successful boutique management consulting firm where he served as the chief operating office served for 13 years in 2009. He co-founded a new firm with west point with his west point classmate called relationship impact a consulting firm focused on working with CEOs to unleash the potential of their leadership teams. And today we’re gonna talk about is newest book called building great leadership teams, a practical approach to unleashing the full potential of your teams. So Jack, welcome to the show.

Jack McGuinness (01:36): Thanks so much for having me, John. It’s good to see you again.

John Jantsch (01:39): So the 10th mountain division, did you learn to ski when you were, uh, yeah,

Jack McGuinness (01:43): No, it was roughly cold. I, we were, it was an upstate New York on the foot of lake Ontario or tip of lake Ontario. And it was people from the sixth infantry division used to come in for, for cold weather training. It was that cold, but it used to used to be in Colorado

John Jantsch (01:58): And, well, that’s what I was gonna say. That’s in fact, there’s a whole system of huts and things that they’ve kept up in the mountains and refurbished, and now you can, you know, cross country ski and hiked to ’em and, and ran ’em out in the winter. And, and I just BEC I’ve gone to a couple of them and I read a pretty fascinating account about the, that division’s, uh, role in world war II and heck pretty fascinating.

Jack McGuinness (02:18): Pretty fast. Yeah. In, in Italy, I think they have

John Jantsch (02:21): Yeah, exactly.

Jack McGuinness (02:21): A big role. Yeah. And they played a huge role in, in the first Gulf war too. Is that right? For sure. Yeah.

John Jantsch (02:28): So I have to start on the cynical side first from a questioning standpoint, there are a lot of leadership books of late. It seems like more and more of late for dysfunction of a team who moved my cheese, you know, turn the ship around. You can all these kind of pop titles that are out there. So I I’ll let you tell me why does a world need another leadership book? What, what is this book gonna bring to, to the genre if you will. That makes it significant.

Jack McGuinness (02:55): You know, I think the reason I actually wrote it, cause I agree with you. There’s a lot of good stuff out there too. It’s not just flaky stuff. There’s some flaky stuff too, but there’s some really good stuff out there. There’s not a lot on building leadership teams. There’s a lot on teams. There’s a lot on, you know, leadership in general, but on building leadership teams, not so much. And so that’s really why I, I, I, I felt like I had something to say after doing this for 14 years,

John Jantsch (03:25): You know, a lot of entrepreneurs, uh, start a business and with an idea and then it grows up and all of a sudden they find themselves being a manager leader right. Without maybe without any desire to be so yeah, but also, you know, kinda realizing that’s the only way to make this thing bigger. So why for particularly for that group of people, is this such a challenge?

Jack McGuinness (03:47): Yeah. So, so it’s, it is a challenge for them. No question about it for, for a lot of them, but it’s what, what I found is that it’s a challenge for those that have, you know, started in a managing training program and grown up the ranks in a mid-size company and building a leadership team is hard. And it’s, it’s, you can’t just throw a group of talented individual players that are good at their individual function, sales, marketing, CFO, operations, you can throw ’em together. And that’s what most firm companies do. And some have a lot of success with it. And others often struggle with the dysfunction that re results from not stepping back and really thinking through what does a leadership team need to be doing for this organization at this time in its journey?

John Jantsch (04:44): Well, I imagine one of the challenges is that as a comp, particularly as a company grows and they start having teams plural, it, it really, you know, it’s not like somebody sat out and said, let’s poof build a team, right? I mean, a team sort of assembles and doesn’t that make it, doesn’t that dynamic alone, make it difficult to have everybody get along. so much

Jack McGuinness (05:04): It does. It, it, it absolutely does. And that, and thus the premise behind the book is very much leadership teams are critical for the health and productivity about an organization, because everyone looks up to the leaders in the organization to see how well they’re working together and holding each other accountable, not so much how much they like each other, but how they’re holding each other accountable. Right. And in order to do that, well, you have to have a good structural foundation for your team, like blah, the blocking and tackling things that are elemental for, you know, running a meeting. Well, for example, a bit, you know, the most basic of things that often are, is not well done. And you have to really set up the right relational dynamics and just step back and say, Hey, look, all of us are different. We’ve all come from different places, journeys.

Jack McGuinness (06:00): And that’s great, but what do we need from each other at this particular juncture in this organization’s journey? And, and if you don’t step back and do that, you put structure in place that sometimes causes some relational strife, right? We’ll put, you know, and, and, and not necessarily intentionally even, but we’ll put structure in place like that. We’ll define roles. And we’ll assume that everyone knows what the marketing Del, you know, delivery focus folks are supposed to do. And the sales folks are supposed to do. And it’s the gray areas between those roles that gets teams in trouble and then bleeds down to the rest of the organization as well sometimes. And so it’s really that Def helping, you know, build the right structure and just talk about what the structure should look like. It, it, it, it saves so much pain on the back end because we’re not pointing fingers at as much at, at each other for stupid things. Look, people are gonna argue, people are gonna, you know, get into confrontations. And that’s a good thing if they’re fighting about the right stuff.

John Jantsch (07:17): So one of the very first steps, of course, which makes a ton of sense, but probably people don’t think about it enough is a lot of times we think in terms of, oh, we have to fill this function or this job on the team, as opposed to who would be the right person.

Jack McGuinness (07:31): That’s right.

John Jantsch (07:32): So, so how, you know, how do you, and I’m, I’m guessing it’s different for every company cuz every culture’s different, but you know, how do you start looking at who should be on the team?

Jack McGuinness (07:43): Well, of course, you know, the functional business unit leaders are, you know, are the natural, you know, people that people, you know, that CEOs point to. Right, right. And that’s fine. It’s a great starting point. The challenge is we have to step back and say, what are the unique capabilities that these individuals need to have to be a really good leadership team member? Things like the ability to think beyond today to, to think beyond today’s problem or the next three months and help the organization help the team think a little further out than that. And not, I’m not talking about a strategic planning effort. I’m talking about just the foresight necessary to how you know, what’s going on in my environment. That’s gonna, you know, gonna impact how we’re operating today. It’s things like managing complexity, you know, can do we have the ability to deal with all this stuff that comes with rising in an organization.

Jack McGuinness (08:43): And now I’m not just a functional player, but I have more things thrown at me, more discussions I’m having about broader issues. Can I take that, those things in and deal with the complexity and make sense of it and more importantly, help the folks under me make sense of it and perhaps more important than anything is, do I have the innate capability to have a, an organization focus or what we call a greater good focus rather than a functional focus. Right? And so we, we know that not every leader has those innate characteristics to start, right, but identifying that they need to have some development on those characteristics is very important and it’s a missed opportunity. We find often.

John Jantsch (09:29): And now let’s hear from our sponsor, you know, as a business owner, you eventually realize you can’t do everything yourself, but hiring is complicated. And what if you only need part-time help your job is to be the visionary. But instead you spend countless hours on tasks that could be done easily and arguably better by someone else. And that’s where the powerful multiplying effects of delegation are mission critical. Our friends at belay can help. Belay is an incredible organization, revolutionizing productivity with their virtual assistance bookkeepers website specialists and social media managers for growing organizations to help you get started. Belay is offering their latest ebook, delegate to elevate for free to all of my listeners. Now in this ebook, you’ll learn how to reclaim time to focus on what you can do by delegating to download your free copy. Just text tape to 5, 5, 1, 2, 3, that’s T a P E to 5, 5 1, 2, 3, accomplish more and juggle less with belay.

John Jantsch (10:40): I should just ask you this, but I know the answer to it already, but yeah, when you see teams break down, uh, what, what is the, what’s the single greatest factor?

Jack McGuinness (10:51): Oh, it’s the, the greatest factor is the inability to have tough conversations about or productive conversations about the most important things that they’re facing, not about trivial crap focus on what’s most important. And what that means is that we have to disagree with each other sometimes because we come at things in from different perspectives and the

John Jantsch (11:15): It’s, it’s tough to, it’s tough to disagree if you don’t trust. I mean, that’s what I was really,

Jack McGuinness (11:19): You know, so, and so the relational dynamics here are really important is do we trust each other enough where we can have those tough conversations without being judged, without being shut down without having my colleague go talk to the CEO after the meeting and tell ’em how, what a stupid idea it was. And then ultimately, you know, we’ve never really gotten to this, but we aspire every team we work with. We, our aspiration is that they are able to hold each other accountable without just the power accountability in their room. Now that’s a heavy lift. That’s a hard thing to get to for any team, but when you can move towards and move the needle towards it and even be spastic as you’re getting towards it, that progress really helps build the fibers amongst the team members.

John Jantsch (12:11): Do you think that it’s a good idea for teams to intentionally seek diversity? And I’m not just necessarily talking about race or ethnicity, but I mean, diversity of ideas, diversity of backgrounds. I mean, do you think that plays a role or does that make it harder?

Jack McGuinness (12:26): I, I, it makes it harder. It makes it harder for sure. No question about it, but it it’s absolutely crucial. Like we, we see often CEOs that will hire people or promote people that are just like them. Right. You know, she grew up in the organization very similar to I did and a sales role and then went to a marketing role and she’s got a very, you know, people oriented approach to her. So I’m gonna put, I’m gonna bring her up and that’s great, but not everyone can have the same or shouldn’t have the same way of thinking. Look, it happens. And, and that’s fine, but you have to compensate for it. You have to ask yourself questions. Like, what are we missing here? Because we all think about this the same way. Right, right. It’s just, it’s the step back type of things you have to do.

John Jantsch (13:20): So the hiring environment, even retention environment right now of employees is, is as we, we all know is, you know, a much top talked about topic in the news. So how do you, I mean, is what you’re talking about is much a retention tool and a recruitment tool as it is a productivity tool.

Jack McGuinness (13:40): Well, I think, you know, there’s no question about it because a look, the CEO’s job is a big one and it doesn’t matter what size of the organization. Obviously it gets more complex and more, you know, as the bigger you get and the more span of control you have, but the CEO’s job is really to create the conditions for his or her team to build a productive and healthy organization. And those things are always, not always, but often in conflict with each other. And, you know, and, and it’s a hard job, but when you do that, well, the downstream effects on the people that are mid-level managers and below is dramatic because they’re like, look, the leadership, team’s not perfect, but man are, they are really, they got our backs and they’re pushing us. They’re pushing whole, I’m working with a bank right now started by a construction guy about 17 years ago.

Jack McGuinness (14:46): And it’s, you know, it’s grown like crazy. The, this is a great place to work and it’s not perfect. There’s chaos. They, you know, they attack problems with, with vigor and it leaves a trail of dust behind them sometimes, but they’re able to repair because the intentions are there that they’re trying to build something really cool. And while they’re doing it, they do take care of their people. It might be after the fact, but they do take care of their people. And, uh, I think that balance of PR product productivity and health is really important.

John Jantsch (15:22): Most teams of some sort of a, maybe it’s a rotating, but it’s an appointed leader. W would the analogy of a sports team kind of be the same where the, the leader of a team’s job really is maybe more like a coach? Or let me just ask you directly, what is the leader’s job of a team?

Jack McGuinness (15:40): Yeah. I mean, ultimately, um, ultimately, and if you, if you go back to the, the, my aspiration, our aspiration of the teams, we work with that they hold each other accountable. When you’re working towards that CEOs naturally evolved to be being more coaching oriented than directing oriented and much more oriented to be working with the, their leadership team to set the picture, to set the foundation, to identify what the most important priorities are, and then let people go now, again, that’s a Nirvana state too, you know, no question about it, but if you’re aspiring to get to something like that, much more likely to have greater success. So the CEO, you know, we started this thing again 14 years ago and our aspiration was like, you know, teams are really leadership teams are so important that it shouldn’t matter what the CEO’s role is on a team.

Jack McGuinness (16:45): And boy were we abused of that, that notion, you know, it’s critical, it’s absolutely critical the role they play. They have to model a whole bunch of stuff like the values that are espoused, the, you know, the, how the, he, or she wants the team to operate. And they have to have a strong role in set in, in establishing directing direction. And sometimes they have to play a heavy hand role, but most often what they have to do is push back when the lobbying happens. And I know that sounds like a trivial issue, but we see it all the time. Like you’ll have a great meaning, see, meeting a seemingly great meeting about an important issue. And then the CEOs getting calls, getting knocks on his door, telling him or her why those ideas were such bad ideas and why these ideas are good ones. And so, and the ability to say, Hey, wait a minute, we had this conversation, go talk to Jerry, go talk to Bob, go talk to Sue and figure this stuff out, and then let’s have a conversation about it, but I need you guys to figure this stuff out. Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:50): So if I’m, uh, a leader or I’m on a team, maybe even, and I’m thinking, I need to pick up this book, what am I gonna, is there a road? Is what am I gonna find in the book? Is it gonna be a roadmap, you know, start here, do then do this UN unpack it in the two yeah. Two minutes or so we have

Jack McGuinness (18:06): A few things it’s it really does. I think it does a pretty good job of talking about why a leadership team is so important in the impact it has on an organization. Number two, it talks, um, a lot about the structural and relational foundation necessary to build a good team mm-hmm and then it get, it does provide a bit of a roadmap on what are the things you need to do to either repair or to build. And, you know, I’m pretty proud of that. Part of it. It’s pretty practical. There are a lot of other books out there there that are, that I believe are really good and inspired me in the work that I do. But I think what we did was got into another level of how do you do this? Yeah. And why is it so important?

John Jantsch (18:55): Much, much needed. So tell people where they can find, uh, the book and find out more about your work, Jack.

Jack McGuinness (19:00): Yeah. So, so relationship impact.com is my website for my firm, but, uh, great leadership team. book.com is the books, companion website that I stole from you. I stole the model and this is my first book. So I’ve never done this before. And I was like, wow, I gotta get one of those companion sites.

John Jantsch (19:23): awesome. Well, jacket was great catching up with you. And, uh, hopefully, uh, we can run into each other one of these, uh, days out there on the road. Next time you’re visiting your son in, in Colorado.

Jack McGuinness (19:33): I will do that, John. No, no question, Matt, thank you so much for, for the opportunity. I appreciate it.

John Jantsch (19:38): Hey, and one final thing before you go, you know how I talk about marketing strategy strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the marketing strategy assessment. You can find it @ marketingassessment.co not – dot com – .co check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketingassessment.co I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network and BELAY.

HubSpot Podcast Network is the audio destination for business professionals who seek the best education and inspiration on how to grow a business.

BELAY is an incredible organization revolutionizing productivity with its virtual assistants, bookkeepers, website specialists, and social media managers for growing organizations. To help you get started, BELAY is offering its latest book, Delegate to Elevate, for free to all our listeners. In this ebook, learn how to reclaim time to focus on what only you can do by delegating. To download your free copy, click here to claim or text TAPE to 55123. Accomplish more and juggle less with BELAY.

Why Great Leadership Starts With Open Hearted Conversations

Why Great Leadership Starts With Open Hearted Conversations written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Marketing Podcast with Edward Sullivan

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Edward Sullivan. Edward has been coaching and advising start-up founders, Fortune 10 executives, and heads of state for over 15 years. His clients include executives from Google, Salesforce, Slack, and dozens of other fast-growth companies. He holds an MBA from Wharton and an MPA from the Harvard Kennedy School. Edward is CEO & President of the renowned executive coaching consultancy, Velocity. He also has a new book launching on June 21, 2022, called — Leading With Heart: 5 Conversations That Unlock Creativity, Purpose, and Results.

Key Takeaway:

Right now, workplaces are struggling to build high-morale and connected cultures. How do you retain and inspire your team? By leading with heart and sparking authentic conversation.

After thousands of hours of interviews and coaching sessions with leaders of many of the world’s most prominent firms, authors John Baird and Edward Sullivan found that top leaders don’t adhere to simple formulas and performance hacks. Instead, they discovered that these leaders help people unlock their creativity, purpose, and results by having conversations that make them feel productive, safe, and appreciated. In this episode, I talk with Edward Sullivan about why great leadership starts with open-hearted conversation.

Questions I ask Edward Sullivan:

  • [1:33] What’s the opposite of leading with heart?
  • [1:53] Is leading with ego how a lot of people have been taught or led?
  • [2:40] What does it take for someone to say that they are a leader?
  • [3:58] You did some pretty exhaustive research to come to the conclusions you did in your new book — could you explain your research process?
  • [5:24] Would you say that the great resignation is a bit of an indictment on leadership?
  • [7:23] It’s challenging to be a leader until you clean up your own house, and I think that starts with self-awareness — do you agree with that and if so, how do you balance that?
  • [9:14] What are the five questions that you talk about in the book?
  • [10:31] How do you start creating a culture of this openness if it has existed before?
  • [11:51] Is there an approach that works better in the workplace when it comes to the setting in which you talk about these questions?
  • [13:13] How do we actually help people understand what their needs are and what their fears are?
  • [14:20] How could you bring this work in earlier into an organization for say a new hire?
  • [16:03] This work is more than the five conversations, it’s daily consistent work — could you talk a little bit about the tools you give folks inside of their organization to use to help with this?
  • [17:57] What’s the balance of being able to use the framework and use it appropriately?
  • [20:29] Can you repair trust?
  • [21:19] Where can people find out more about your work?

More About Edward Sullivan:

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John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the female startup club, hosted by dune Roen, and brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. If you’re looking for a new podcast, the female startup club shares tips, tactics and strategies from the world’s most successful female founders, entrepreneurs, and women in business to inspire you to take action and get what you want out of your career. One of my favorite episodes who should be your first hire, what’s your funding plan? Dr. Lisa Keven shares her top advice from building spotlight oral. Listen to the female startup club, wherever you get your podcasts.

John Jantsch (00:49): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Edward Sullivan. He’s been coaching in advising startup founders, fortune 10 executives and heads of state for over 15 years. His clients include executives from Google, Salesforce, slack, and dozens of other fast growth companies. He holds an MBA from Wharton and an M PA from the Harvard Kennedy school. He’s a CEO and president of the renowned executive coaching consultancy velocity. And he’s also the co-author of a book. We’re gonna talk about today leading with heart five conversations that unlock creativity, purpose, and results. So Edward, welcome to the show.

Edward Sullivan (01:31): Thanks so much great to be here.

John Jantsch (01:33): So let’s start with leading with heart as opposed to leading with what’s the opposite.

Edward Sullivan (01:41): Well, leading with heart is when you’re being open and curious, and I guess it’s leading with fear leading with ego is how a lot of people go about it, unfortunately.

John Jantsch (01:50): Yeah. And in your research, of course, I’m, I’m guessing that unfortunately that’s how a lot of people were taught or that’s how a lot of people have been led. Isn’t it?

Edward Sullivan (01:57): Well, you know, I think a lot of people when they don’t know better, yeah. They go back to maybe what they saw when they were coming up. And I think a lot of leaders today came up in the eighties and nineties and a lot of high pressure environments. And they were led by people who led by fear, who led with ego and they’ve learned to do the same. So our research indicated that the leaders who actually get the best results out of their employees lead with heart. And we explored that in the book,

John Jantsch (02:28): You know, a lot of entrepreneurs maybe didn’t go through any kind of formal leadership program or were mentored or . I mean, they just started a business and like, poof, now you have to lead people, right? I mean, what does it, what does it take for that person to start saying, oh, I’m a leader now, what do I do? Yeah,

Edward Sullivan (02:45): You’re right. A lot of our, our clients come to us because they’re really good developers. They’re good engineers, right? They’re good product designers. And they built something. People liked it. And now suddenly they have to build a company around it and they never took that class at school. You know, the how to lead people class. And the first in instinct is to try to control everything. Yeah. When you’re the founder, this is your baby. You know, you wanna control everything from the font to the color, to the, how people talk about it, to potential customers. And we’ve learned that people need a little bit more freedom than that. They need to feel some, some sense of owner. Should they need to be able to show up as themselves at work. And it’s really incumbent upon leaders of these firms to give people that freedom and give people that support. So they do feel themselves.

John Jantsch (03:37): Yeah. And I tell you just personal experience as a leader, it’s exhausting trying to hold onto everything. You’re trying to think you have all the answers. Right. And so I, I think it could be very freeing once people go, oh, they actually did it better. Or nobody died here. Right. I mean, so exactly it really. So, so tell me, I mean, leadership books, that’s a huge category of books, probably growing every year. You did some pretty exhaustive research to come to the conclusions you came to. You wanna explain that research process a little bit?

Edward Sullivan (04:05): Sure, sure. So my business partner and I are practitioners, we’re executive coaches. We run velocity, it’s a firm with 25 coaches around the world. We’ve got hundreds of clients. And over our combined 40 years of, uh, working with top executives, we were kind of performing the research on along the way. Right. We didn’t even know it. So our research process was actually going back through our notes, going back through files and saying, what is it that really ties all these great leaders together? What’s that common? We’re not journalists, we’re not researchers by trade. We’re more practitioners who backed into doing some research about this. And we found that there are five core conversations that great leaders are having, that enable them to lead with heart that enable them to have these connected conversations. And they’re conversations that we’re not used to having in the office. Yeah. Right. Because they’re about what do we need as people? What do we need to feel creative and resourceful? What fears might be holding us back, right. It’s about what are the, uh, desires that we have that really motivate us, but can also derail us if we take them a little bit too far,

John Jantsch (05:10): We also talked about, I was just gonna say, I wanna unpack those each or the five conversations I, I kind of wanted to, I wanted to frame it a little bit though, in, in what’s what’s very topical right now is, you know, we’re calling it all kinds of things, a great resignation and whatnot. I mean, is that a bit of a, is that a bit of a, an indictment on leadership? I mean, are people leaving because they’re not getting these things or because they’re not getting, you know, even basic respect.

Edward Sullivan (05:36): I mean, that is exactly right. And research has been done recently that showed that we think people are leaving because they want more freedom or they want more money. They want more equity, but 10 times more important is that they’re leaving toxic work cultures. Yeah. Right. They feel burned out. They feel unappreciated. They feel unseen. Obviously doing all of our work over zoom. Hasn’t helped much in the last couple of years. Right. But there are things that leaders can be doing to create this, these connections with people, even over zoom. And they’re simply not doing them. We get on a call and we say, great, what do we have to talk about today? Let’s do our work. Okay. Enough. And then we get off the call as quickly as possible. Right? Yeah. We’re not creating that connective tissue anymore. And that’s what people are missing.

John Jantsch (06:22): Yeah. I, uh, we have a client that, you know, like a lot of people are trying to hire people and, and trying everything, you know, running ads in all the places. And, you know, we just, we actually we’re testing ads and they add that. We ran that today for two years now has been by far and away the winner, it just, the, the title just says respect wow. And then it says, are you getting, you know, are you getting the respect you deserve in your current career? And I, we can’t beat that ad you know, so it really does say something doesn’t

Edward Sullivan (06:50): I’m gonna write that one down here

John Jantsch (06:52): Do, go for it. So, so you started to unpack the five conversations and you talked about, you used words, like what people need, the fears that are holding them back. We’re gonna get to the P word purpose eventually. Yeah. Here’s the thing that not enough people say is that I don’t think you can do those things as a leader until you clean up your own house. I mean, you get rid of your own fears. You get, you understand your own purpose. Right. And I think a lot of books try to a lot of books, try to say, here’s the roadmap, you know, but not enough say, uh, self, it starts with self-awareness. So, you know, how do you balance that, that thought? Or maybe you disagree with it?

Edward Sullivan (07:27): No, don’t I, I don’t disagree at all. I fatally agree. Yeah. In fact, we, we call the book basically a, a 250 page coaching conversation with one of us, right. With both of us, because really in Le in reading the book, we’re asking you these questions, you need to do all the work yourself. Yeah. And be comfortable answering these questions yourself with your employees, to be able to have those conversations. You can’t just go into it into a room with someone and say like, what are you afraid of? right. that doesn’t really make someone want to open up. But if you start the conversation and say, you know, I don’t know about you, but I’ve been feeling a little bit triggered into some fear recently. There’s a lot of uncertainty in the market. Things are happening abroad where, you know, we’re the country, the world’s at war right now. Yeah. Um, times of uncertainty make me feel a little uncertain, make me feel fearful. What’s coming up for you. Right? Yeah. Suddenly the leader has opened up themselves, created that vulnerability, the V word, right? Yeah. That allows other people to feel comfortable being vulnerable as well.

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John Jantsch (09:15): So let’s, let’s just pretend that the person that’s reading this book has, uh, dealt with that themselves. You know, just give me maybe gimme the 32nd. Here are the five, and then we can kind of come back and go, well, how do you do that?

Edward Sullivan (09:27): Yeah. Yeah. So the five questions that we found in our research and you’ve, you’ve outlined them as well are around needs. What do you need to be resourceful and creative? Yeah. Fears, what fears might be holding you back desires. And this is like, what do you really want out of life? And how could those core desires potentially derail you? We also talk a lot about gifts. What are the gifts you have that are unrealized or unexpressed in this current role? And then once we’ve had those four conversations, we’re ready to have the conversation around purpose.

John Jantsch (10:00): Yeah. O obviously I shouldn’t say obviously in many cases, uh, people have had that relationship. Maybe somebody’s been there for a long time. I mean, they just know each other they’ve unpacked over the years, but a lot of times somebody’s just, you know, managing somebody, they do, they get their 30 minutes a week, you know, with them. I mean, how do you really start getting into areas that maybe both parties are uncomfortable with, but probably the, you know, the superior, you know, perhaps seen as the superiors less uncomfortable with, I mean, you know, how do you start? How do you start creating a culture, I guess, of this openness that has maybe if it hasn’t existed.

Edward Sullivan (10:37): Yeah. You know, we talk a lot about culture and our work and in the book and it is, it is a great challenge. And it’s also an incredible opportunity. Yeah. Um, if you have a culture that’s really shut down where people don’t share anything about their personal lives coming out suddenly and talking about everything you’re fearful of yeah. Will be, will come as a shock, right? Yeah. You need to build up some, some trust there, right? Yeah. You need to approach some of these topics slowly. You need to build an environment of safety where people feel like we’re starting to connect to human beings as opposed to colleagues. And that feels pretty cool. Right. And it’s that connecting that, learning about each other, where you come from, what have you done, what’s going on at home? Do you have siblings, all those basic questions that we kind of take for granted with our friends, we often don’t know anything aside from like the names of spouses and maybe the names of children with our, our colleagues. Right? Yeah. We start having those baseline conversations, then we can go, go a few layers deeper. Yeah. We can start getting into what are you really? Maybe what you’re fearful of. Right. It builds upon itself. Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:40): Yeah. Trust is what we’re talking about. Really trust .

Edward Sullivan (11:43): Yeah. I mean, yeah. It all comes down to trust when people say like, what’s the two second summary of this book, it’s how to build trust in a work environment. Exactly.

John Jantsch (11:51): So, so do you advocate making, you know, like a lot of people will hear this and they’ll go, okay. Uh, we got 25 minutes, I’m gonna spend five minutes asking you about yourself and then we’re gonna get into it. I mean, is that the approach or do you actually want to have like, let’s have a company lunch once a month and we’re not gonna talk about work. I mean, which approach is better

Edward Sullivan (12:13): In your, uh, it’s actually both, right? Yeah. You need that regular drip of like connecting, uh, just like, Hey, what’s been going on. Yeah. And as opposed to just like the cursory what’d you do this weekend, right. We also want people to be giving the giving each other, some praise. Yeah. Like, so we start in our company, we start all of our meetings with shout outs. Mm-hmm and we say like, does anyone have anything great to say on anyone else on the call? You know? And it’s like, I really wanna thank Mike for, you know, in this meeting we had last week, he did this. That was great. Public praise makes people feel good. Yeah. We don’t get enough of it. Right? Yeah. We might get praise, um, privately or over email, but you really wanna be sharing that praise in real time. And as, as much as you can in front of other people,

John Jantsch (12:59): How much of the work, like, I, I, I would venture to say that if we filled a room up with 50 people and said, please explain your purpose, you know, about, yeah. Two of them, you know, could come up with anything that they thought really resonated. So how do we actually help people understand what their needs are, what their fears are, because I think that’s a lot of the challenges they don’t know. We could ask somebody, what, what are your fears? But they don’t know.

Edward Sullivan (13:26): They don’t know you’re right. You know, we try to explore some different themes in the book of needs that we’ve seen. Our clients have fears. We’ve seen our clients have to give people a language, but it’s really through the conversation that we start exploring. I don’t even know what I might be fearful of. Yeah. Right. You know, do I get to say that I’m fearful in this office environment hate to say it, but like men especially are trained to be fearless. They can’t show any fear and to work in a, in, in a, in a tough work environment, women then show up and think that they can’t show any fear either. And it’s this creates this really negative feedback system. So we’re trying to break that by saying, it’s actually, it’s not just okay to have these conversations. It’s better if you do right. You actually get better results. If you’re able to talk about these things and have that connection,

John Jantsch (14:20): How, how could you bring this work earlier, uh, into somebody? So somebody joins an organization. Could this be part of the hiring process to some degree, or is it just too hard to do that? Because there’s no relationship because you know, when you start talking about people’s desires and gifts, mm-hmm

Edward Sullivan (14:36): ,

John Jantsch (14:37): That might actually direct the path , you know, that, that they would go or the role that they would fill, you know, how could you do this without, you know, the relationship part? Or can you,

Edward Sullivan (14:47): Yeah. I mean, some environments, some organizations have a culture where as soon as you walk in the door, you feel at ease. Yeah. You feel relaxed. You can tell people genuinely like each other. Yeah. Right. And in those companies, and we, we, we’re lucky enough to advise a handful of ’em that are like that you sit down for the interview and you already feel at ease with this person. You already it’s like, we, we we’ve been friends for a long time. Right? Yeah. So the people who are just coming in are almost inculturated into this idea of it’s cool to just be yourself. It’s cool to show up as you are and bring your gifts to the table, bring your needs and fears to the table and we’ll work with that. Right. Cause it’s very human to have needs. It’s human to have other environments you walk in and it feels cold. It feels like, you know, they’re giving you like an intimidation interview. I don’t know if you’ve ever had ever interviewed at McKinsey, like they’re famous for the intimidation interview where they try to see how you respond when someone’s almost really rude to you in an interview situation because the client might be rude to you someday. Yeah. Yeah. That’s fine. And all, but how about have that conversation about, you need to steal up and be ready for people to be an asshole towards you rather than just be that way towards them in the interview.

John Jantsch (16:04): So talk a little bit about some of the tools, because obviously you do this work with organizations, you teach people, you give them tools to, to train the, you know, folks inside their organization. So talk a little bit about the work, I guess that is that, you know, that’s more than just, you know, five conversations it’s daily work.

Edward Sullivan (16:22): Right. Right. I mean, our work is predominantly one on one conversations, like coaching conversations. And then we facilitate a lot of conversations for our clients. So you might, uh, not be surprised that right now with everyone starting to go back to the office and COVID feels like it’s mostly over, everybody wants to have a team offsite. So we’re just completely booked out through the summer in dozens of team offsite for people who wanna have these conversations. Right. They’re they wanna buy the book and have everyone that will have a workshop about the book or they just wanna get together and have a joyful experience of learning about each other. They’re they learned half of our employees. No one’s even met before. Cause we hired them in the middle of COVID. Yeah. What’s your name? You know, don’t tell me what you need yet. Just tell me what your name is. and in, in those facilitated experiences that we engage with clients, that’s where the real work happens, right? Yeah. It’s one thing to like play the games and do the trust falls and these kinds of things. It’s another thing to have a facilitated, really hard open conversation that gets people cracked wide open and gets them sharing things that they never thought they’d be able to share, let alone, I mean, with their friends, let alone in an office environment and suddenly it feels very natural.

John Jantsch (17:39): I suspect one of the tricks to this work is that, you know, even though you’ve got a nice tidy framework, you know, people are, people are all different. Sure. Some people respond differently. Some people love to talk about how they feel. some people, some people that’s like the worst thing that could, you know, that could be involved in the day. Exactly. So, you know how what’s the art or what’s the balance of being able to use the framework, but use it appropriately, I guess. Yeah.

Edward Sullivan (18:07): I mean, the important thing with all of this work is to start where people are, right. We can’t have forced vulnerability. Yeah. You know, people need to feel safe. It needs to feel natural. And it should often, it often comes after the leader has created an opening for it. You know, the leader who calls a meeting and says, great, everyone’s gonna share their most painful childhood story. starting with you. Right. Doesn’t really work. Yeah. Right. But if over time we’re building rapport, we’re making people feel safe. And the leader is the one who is handing out praise, making people feel good, making them feel psychologically safe. Yeah. Right. And that’s definitely a term of art in that when people give feedback, when they have ideas, when they push back against the conversation and what we’re doing, and the leader says, that’s really interesting. Tell me more. Yeah. You know, so really creates

John Jantsch (19:04): So really in a lot of ways, you’re, it’s not, there’s actually a risk in proclaiming. This is how we’re gonna do it or mandating, this is what we’re gonna do now, as opposed to just doing it.

Edward Sullivan (19:13): Yeah. Sometimes you just do it. Yeah. And you say, there’s no obligation to join the conversation. There’s no obligation to share something. You don’t feel comfortable sharing, but we’ve learned in this organization, whether it’s through the book or through it’s following the research that teams and organizations that share what’s really going on for them. Yeah. Build trust. And then ultimately have more honest conversations about the work itself. Yeah. Right. It’s this virtuous cycle. If you tell me what’s really going on for you and I build trust, then when I push back against you on an idea when we’re debating, you know, we’re really trying to get to the truth of the matter. Or we’re trying to get to the best idea. If I can’t push back against you, we might ship a flawed product. Right. I mean the, the, the challenger exploded because a scientist wasn’t able to say, oh, this O ring might be bad. Right. Things go wrong because people don’t feel safe pushing back. And I

John Jantsch (20:09): Think this

Edward Sullivan (20:10): Whole artist is about up in the build that safety.

John Jantsch (20:14): Yeah. I was gonna say, I think you make a really great point. I mean, some of the best organizations are ones where people feel, uh, enough trust that they can argue that they can, you know, debate things like that. Yeah. Yeah. As opposed to feeling like, oh, well doesn’t matter, you know, , I’m just gonna go. Exactly. Can you repair trust? Do you think? Because I’m thinking there are a lot of organizations out there that they just were, the leader was being who they were being and, you know, woke up one day and realize this isn’t working, you know, is that something that you can repair or is it again, just one of those things where you’ve gotta demonstrate through your actions, that things have changed,

Edward Sullivan (20:49): You know, they say trust comes in on two feet and leaves on a horse. Yeah. Right. So it is something that is earned slowly and can easily be destroyed. That said humans are naturally forgiving people. Right. We can always earn trust back. We just have to do the work. Yeah. And we have to be consistent.

John Jantsch (21:11): Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Lots of work for lots of us to do so, Edward, thanks for, so by the duct tape marketing, uh, podcast, you wanna tell people where they can find out more about your work or anything else you wanna share.

Edward Sullivan (21:22): Absolutely. The book is@leadingwithheartbook.com and thank you so much for the opportunity.

John Jantsch (21:29): Yeah. Well, again, as, as I said, thanks for stopping by, and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Edward Sullivan (21:34): Hope so. Thank you much.

John Jantsch (21:37): Hey, and one final thing before you go, you know how I talk about marketing strategy strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the marketing strategy assessment. You can find it @ marketingassessment.co not dot com, dot co .check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketingassessment.co I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network and Drip.

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Using Personalization Data To Reshape Your Customer Experience

Using Personalization Data To Reshape Your Customer Experience written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Marketing Podcast with Brennan Dunn

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Brennan Dunn. Brennan is the Co-founder of RightMessage, writes weekly at Create & Sell, and wrapping up a new book on personalized marketing.

Key Takeaway:

The internet has changed the way we do business. It’s given your company access to a global customer base. But that doesn’t mean consumers are all the same. Their location, economy, and finances can influence how consumers engage with your business. So how does a virtual business replicate the vital in-person experience? With technology. Brennan Dunn is the co-founder of RightMessage, a software company that helps you uncover who’s on your website, what they do, and what they’re looking for from you. In this episode, we talk about how we can leverage personalized data to improve the customer experience and increase revenue for your business.

Questions I ask Brennan Dunn:

  • [1:21] Could you tell me about your book and what inspired you to write it?
  • [2:09] What has your journey looked like?
  • [4:44] When RightMessage came to be, were you just working with JavaScript coding?
  • [5:44] How does the idea of personalization play into the customer journey?
  • [13:56] How does the technology of RightMessage work?
  • [18:59] Do you have any data to back up the willingness people have to give you more information when you share how it will benefit them?
  • [22:15] How does RightMessage use the data it collects to personalize the website for each visitor?
  • [24:09] Does RightMessage work with the various page builders that are out there now?
  • [24:51] Where can more people connect with you and learn more about RightMessage?

More About Brennan Dunn:

Take The Marketing Assessment:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the female startup club, hosted by Doone Roison, and brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. If you’re looking for a new podcast, the female startup club shares tips, tactics and strategies from the world’s most successful female founders, entrepreneurs, and women in business to inspire you to take action and get what you want out of your career. One of my favorite episodes who should be your first hire, what’s your funding plan, Dr. Lisa Cravin shares her top advice from building spotlight oral. Listen to the female startup club, wherever you get your podcast. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast.

John Jantsch (00:51): This is John chance and my guest today is Brennan Dunn. He’s a co-founder of right founder of write message. He writes a weekly at create and sell, and he’s working on a new book, all about personalized marketing, which by the way, is what we’re gonna talk about today. So Brennan, welcome to the show.

Brennan Dunn (01:11): Yeah. Thanks for having you, John.

John Jantsch (01:13): So tell me about the book. Is it, is this one of these things where you get some spare time and you go right on it for a while, or is it, is its publication imminent?

Brennan Dunn (01:22): It’s somewhere in between. I’ve gotten much more structured than I was early on. So I am, I do have dedicated writing blocks that I try to keep. Yeah. And the, the finish line is coming up. So I’m aiming for about a midjune finalization, if you will, the manuscript and, uh, we’ll go

John Jantsch (01:36): From there. So, so as I said, we’re gonna talk about personalized marketing. So personalization in your emails and, you know, in your segmentation and your website, of course, and, and the technology there, you know, now, you know, makes that to something that if you put a little effort is really simple to do, I would suggest it’s probably becoming necessary to do I think, in the environment we’re in. But before we get into that, I’d love to hear a little bit about your journey because you and I have spoken briefly, we were at a, a conference, uh, together recently, and I kind of got the sense that you’ve got your hands in a few things, or at least have had your hands in a few things, you know, leading up to right. Message.

Brennan Dunn (02:15): Yeah. Yeah. So about a decade and, and change ago, I used to run a web agency. So that kind of got my experience with, or that, that built up my experience with kind of needing to sell big ticket projects, built that up to 11 people. And I think the, the big core thing that I, the big takeaway I got from that experience was how important things like dropping relevant examples were. And if somebody’s a technical person talking technical with em, if they’re just a marketing person, not talking technical, for instance, and, and so on. So I did that for a while. I got bit by the software bug, we were building apps for other people I wanted to build my own. So I built a little, a software company called plan scope. And in 2011, sold that in 20 15, 20 16, somewhere around then, right at the end of the year.

Brennan Dunn (03:00): And then I kind of started up or kind of came serious about this company called double year freelancing, which is the thing that I frankly did the best at with all these things. And that’s now a community of, well north, almost about 60,000 freelancers and agencies. And it was fun. Like we, you know, I did conferences, I had a podcast, I did the whole like bunches of courses, ebook, like info product, kind of Emporium there. And that’s really got where I got my start with personalization because as we started to get kind of broader in terms of our audience, we had copywriters, we had marketers, we had designers, developers, and really every Stripe of freelancer you could think of. Right. And the developer me thought, well, what if a copywriter is on a sales page? And they see copywriter testimonials, and what if a developer sees developer testimonials and, you know, that kind of opened up this Pandora’s box that I’ve been, uh, continuing to open ever since on what’s possible, given who somebody is, what their relationship is with you.

Brennan Dunn (04:03): So are they new on your website? They just appeared from Google or are they your most, you know, die hard customer? What kind of work do they do? What stage of their business are they at? And yeah, that, that kinda led me to eventually getting approached by a few key investors saying, we see what you’ve been doing on your own site. Can you extract that technology into a product that we can pay for? And they were willing to kind of fund the development of that. So that’s how right message came to be. And that was about 20 17, 20 18, right around then that we kind of launched it.

John Jantsch (04:36): So at the time, were you just doing that with JavaScript coding or something? Or how were you making that happen?

Brennan Dunn (04:42): Yeah, so what I was doing is back then, I was using, I switched from infusion soft, which is now keep to drip back then. Sure. And drip had a really nice JavaScript library that you could put on your website that would allow you, if you knew how to write JavaScript to query and say, Hey, is the current person on my website? Are they on my list? And if so, how are they tagged and what custom fields do they have? So it was really just a matter of writing, a lot of, yeah, custom JavaScript where I’d say, okay, if they’re a subscriber and they’re tagged customer, let’s show this thing instead of that thing. And, and it just became a lot of, kind of very brittle, very manual coding, right. Which really lent itself to building a web-based interface to set it all up.

John Jantsch (05:28): So I was gonna ask you what the biggest mistake you see marketers making today, I’m really just teeing up the non personalization, or just treating everybody that visits the website, just as you said, as the same person with the same desires, the same, you know, method of buying the same journey, all those. So let’s talk a little bit about, you know, that idea of the customer journey. Mm-hmm , I think that’s something I spend a lot of time talking about the stages of and how people make, you know, decisions today. In fact, I, you know, frequently say the thing that’s changed the most in marketing is how people choose to become customers. You know, not necessarily, you know, the platforms and the technology. So how does this role, I mean, thinking in terms of how people buy today, they go, they visit, they see if they like you, they see if they trust, you know, they dig deeper. Mm-hmm . I mean, how does the idea of personalization play into the customer journey for you?

Brennan Dunn (06:19): I think for me, and, and what I typically recommend, a lot of people do, especially those of us who are trying to do kind of email first, where right. You know, instead of pushing somebody to buy or trying to get them on our list and then over time, build up trust and then get them to buy later. I think the thing that as being on the consumer end, always frustrates me is if I’m on an email list of a brand, let’s say, and I get their, you know, their latest email and drives me me back to their website, then I’m hit with a giant popup asking for my email address. Not only is it a bit annoying because you know, they presumably know that since they just E you know, they just email me , but a marketer me thinks that’s a missed opportunity. I mean, that, that’s a perfect opportunity to say, Hey, you’re on my list.

Brennan Dunn (07:03): You’re kind of already a little further down the funnel. Why not present a product, an entry level product you haven’t yet bought. And then if they’ve bought that entry level thing, let’s now put onsite called actions for maybe the more premium product or right. You know, the, the, the crazy mastermind in Cabo, San Lucas, five figure thing, if you’re the super customer, right. Like, I mean, that’s the kind of thing that I think a lot of us, I think are doing that over email with campaigns that are saying like, you know, for different cohorts of subscribers, we wanna send different marketing messages. But I think considering that most of us are bringing people back to the website, whether it be to listen to the latest podcast episode or to read at the latest blog post, or just to look at a sales page. I think having that interplay back and forth is something that most of us should be doing. It’s just, it’s one of these things that it’s a little challenging to figure out how to do, which is one of the things I’ve been trying to help ease.

John Jantsch (07:56): Yeah. I think a real obvious use case. You talk about the popups that, you know, version one, everybody saw it every time , you know, it’s like, get outta here, get outta the way. So we were constantly just slapping him away. Then they got a little smarter, oh, you’ve been here before your, in the last two weeks. So I’m not gonna show it to you, but like you said, the ultimate is I know everything, or I know a great deal about you and our relationship already. So I may have one of eight things that I would show you, obviously that’s next level, isn’t it?

Brennan Dunn (08:28): Yeah. Yeah. And doing that, but also doing, um, more horizontal things, like, depending on maybe the industry somebody’s in or the job role that they’re in, or their goal, maybe offering different products or different recommendations to them showing different messages. I already mentioned the testimonial example of yeah. Depending on somebody’s kind of business, they run, what kind of case studies and testimonials should they see even things like one of the, one of the most rewarding, if you will. Things that I tested that that has worked consistently is I have, for one of my courses, a free email course that feeds people to the paid course. Yeah. And what I did is I simply asked people when they joined the free course, which of the following three things are you trying to solve with this course? Cause the course is on pricing and the three options would be, I want to get an idea of how to price in general, I went to start pricing on value, or I went to learn how to write proposals better.

Brennan Dunn (09:18): And those were kind of the three things I uncovered were why people kept joining the email course. So all I simply did was I said, well, okay. They tell me this upfront, what I’ll do is when the email course completes and I then start to pitch the paid thing, the paid thing relates to the email core, the free course. Yeah. So let’s just say, if they said they’re struggling with proposals, make the focus of the course and why they buy it to help you with proposals. Right. Yeah. Right. And it’s things like that I think are kind of a no brainer when you think it through. I mean, it’s any, anything like if I was trying to sell you over the phone on something I would, and, and you said, you know, you, you signaled something to me that allowed me to mentally segment you into this is John’s pain point. You, I, a good salesperson is gonna right. Keep playing off that. Right. So it’s the same, same thing just in a more scalable, um, more high volume, medium, if you will.

John Jantsch (10:13): Well, and I think that that approach of narrowing, you know, the focus, because I think a lot of times what we do as marketers is we default to, well, here are the five things we know are the reasons people buy this. So we’re gonna tell you those are all the benefits. Yeah, exactly. You know, so then consequently, we’re like, well, one of those matters to me, the other’s just like more clutter that I have to read about. And now I’m just confused. Yeah. And I think that idea of being able to zero in on something, they told you, I mean, they basically said here’s how to sell me. Right. right.

Brennan Dunn (10:42): Yeah, exactly. And, and I mean, this plays out, I think in a lot of more impactful ways, like I mentioned, the first software company that I sold, it was a project management tool called plan scope. So think of task management, normal kind of stuff like that time tracking. And I, I sold to freelancers and agencies cuz really the only difference with an agency was they had multiple seats and every functionally was the same thing. But I remember I, I got on a call. This is, would’ve been like 2013. So you know, quite a while ago in internet time, at least I, I got on a call with an agency owner and I was talking with them and I was showing them our website and kind of figuring out like what was holding them back from moving forward. And their objection was anything that works for a freelancer couldn’t work for our agency.

Brennan Dunn (11:24): And you know, it was kind of this weird. I struggled at the time as the person who knew the product inside out thinking the only logistic differences is maybe some things on the reporting end, but also the fact that there’s like multiple contributors and stuff to a, you know, a, a project rather than a single contributor. But it just kind of, it floored me thinking like, is this a very, is this a common shared thing? You know, that there’s this bias of teams think solo people don’t have anything in common with them. Yeah. And maybe convert vice versa. So anyway, that was a, uh, for me that would’ve been like a prime. I, I was even thinking at the time maybe I spin off like plan scope, premium or plan scope pro.com make it completely separate marketing site, make it all about agencies. And just say, if you’re an agency, you go to this site. Yeah. This lead magnet, whatever freelancers, get that one. But really the, I think the beauty of personalization is you can have the same products. You can have the same marketing site, you can have the same marketing and you just kind of dynamically alter bits and pieces. So you can get around those core objections in a and really elegant way.

John Jantsch (12:31): Yeah. And I think one of the things that I, I hear a lot of times, you know, sales people complaining that I got multiple stakeholders to sell, you know, the sales manager cares about vastly different things than the CEO does. And so I think that idea of job title, you know yeah. In your database is really crucial because I mean, case studies you could deliver that are different. I mean every benefits, all of your messaging can be different. Yeah. And sell those multiple stakeholders came.

Brennan Dunn (12:57): Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:59): And now let’s hear from a sponsor, look, you’ve worked hard to grow your business and finding CRM software. You can trust to help grow it even more. It isn’t easy, whether you’re starting out or scaling up, HubSpot is here to help your business grow better with a CRM platform that helps put your customers first. And it’s stresses by enterprises and entrepreneurs alike with easy to use marketing tools like drag and drop web page editors that require no custom code content strategy tools where you can create topic clusters that automatically link supporting content back to your core pillar pages to ensure search engines can easily crawl your site and identify you as an expert on any given topic. HubSpot helps your business work smarter, not harder, learn how your business can grow better @ hubspot.com.

John Jantsch (13:54): We’ve already talked about a lot of the ways I think people can use this. Tell, tell me a little bit about the technology. I mean, how, how, without getting to a level that you have to be a coder to understand what you’re saying, you know, how does this work?

Brennan Dunn (14:06): Yeah. So what, we’re the way we’ve modeled. This is you integrate with your email database. So that could be, you know, convert kit, HubSpot, drip, whatever. Yep. Active campaign, different things like that. And the, the way we look at it is that should that record about somebody. So Brennan’s record in John’s active campaign database is the single source of truth about what we know about Brennan. So presumably you segment me when I buy from you, you know, Stripe does its thing. You then tag me as a customer. You, I buy something else. I get another tag and so on. So it’s really just extending that to say, well, can we also sync up to that record attributes about, you know, industry chal current focus, whatever it might be. And then what we do is we say when one of two things happens, if somebody opts into your list, we basically kind of do a little think of it as a bit of a hijack, if you will saying, okay, a record was just added to active campaign for this browser.

Brennan Dunn (15:12): So when it comes back active, campaign’s gonna say, Hey, we created a record and its internal ID is 1, 2, 3, and then all right message says is great. We’re gonna drop a cookie on the browser saying this is active campaign record 1, 2, 3. So then from that on out until they clear their cookies, we just query and say, what do we know about 1, 2, 3, and, and get back that, that data. So then we can pull that data down, but also push shade up. So if we learn something new about this person, like they change their focus or they change industries, that data can then be synced to that single source of truth. So what we’re basically creating a bridge, if you will, between the website and a specific record in your email database and then pulling data down and pushing data up and we pull data down and we can say, when this data’s present, so when they’re tagged customer, don’t show the sign up form at the top of the website and the hero show, the upgrade button or something.

Brennan Dunn (16:07): Yeah. Right. And being able to do interesting stuff like that. And that’s really what we’re trying to do is we’re, we’re trying to really help people. And it’s difficult because it’s a bit of a challenge strategically to think it all through, but we’re trying to help people create more holistic end, end ex and end experiences where, you know, you’re getting personalized emails, you’re getting emails that are targeting just customers. But then when you go back to the site, you’re not treating, you’re not being treated as an anonymous person. You’re being treated as that customer too.

John Jantsch (16:33): You know, CRM, maintenance and updating is, you know, is the bane of a lot of people’s existence. And to some degree, you know, this is automating a great deal of that. Mm-hmm for people. I mean, it’s making your CRM smarter without you having to do a lot of effort once you get it in place. I think,

Brennan Dunn (16:48): Yeah. It’s just feeding. I mean, you obviously need to set up the different surveys right. And quizzes or whatever else, but yeah. It’s enriching. And I like to think of it as, especially those of us who are focus focused on low touch email stuff. Yeah. So you’ve got the lead magnet, the most we know about most of our people on our list is their first name and email address. Yeah. That’s pretty much it, which again, isn’t the end of the world. But I think if you can find out a bit more about why is they downloaded the lead magnet and what are they currently struggling with and what best describes their situation. And obviously the questions change depending on the business, the underlying business and stuff. Um, yeah. I mean a good example that we, that we like to reference a lot is we have a customer that’s in the health and fitness space and they do what you would expect, which is they ask like, what are your current goals?

Brennan Dunn (17:35): Do you wanna build muscle lose, you know, lose fat, whatever. And they’re able to then just dial in on both the products offered, but also the stories told over their marketing emails to just resonate better. I mean, it allows us to, I think all of us know that niche websites typically outperform generic. And the reason for that is they just, they had their messaging dialed in to one, one type of person with one type of need. And, um, but there’s no reason you need a niche, the entire business. Right. You know, it, it can be done. It’s like when I used to write proposals for my agency, we did web mobile apps for all different types of companies. When I wrote a proposal, I was effectively nicheing down our business to fit their unique need. And that’s all we’re talking about doing is just a, a way of doing that kind of dynamically.

John Jantsch (18:21): You know, what’s interesting about this, you know, you’ve, we’ve all gone to that, uh, to get that free download and presented with, you know, 18 fields of data that they want. And we’re reluctant to fill that in because I, I, I feel typically we don’t trust that company enough yet or, you know, whatever it is that we want to really give them that much information. Plus I think it, it feels like I’m giving you this information for your benefit. Right. And one of the things I like about this approach of asking people, I think it’s very easy to get a lot more data because it’s positioned or you can position it as, Hey, this is, this is so I can send you the right stuff. You know, this is so you get only what you care about. And I think that positioning really dramatically changes, you know, how much willingness people have to give you and trust that you develop. But I’m wondering if you have any data to back that up.

Brennan Dunn (19:14): I do. Yeah. So we used to be really pushing people. And I think you and I talked about this kind of recently where we used to push people to do a lot of upfront data collection. So pre optin get industry job role, all that stuff. Right. We’ve and the calculus was always, well, if we got more data about somebody could then show them a personalized optin. So if I knew you were in this industry with this problem, instead of join my newsletter, I can say, join my newsletter, you know, focused on helping, you know, marketing coaches with X, you know what I mean? Like just being able to make that really dialed in. And, and there’s some like that can sometimes work better, but if it’s tricky, so what I recommend most people do at this point is get that data post optin. So do your usual normal optin stuff.

Brennan Dunn (20:02): And then I like using the confirmation page. So the thank you page that usually says, Hey, thanks, go check your email goodbye. Instead, use that as an opportunity to say, Hey, so, you know, thanks for joining. If you can spare a minute or two, I’d love to just find out a bit more about how I can make sure you get exactly the content you need and nothing more. So this is something that, you know, we do, I do, but also many of our customers do. And on average, we’re getting usually it’s about 80 to 85% of all new opt-ins end up going through that process. I mean, assuming it’s not a thousand questions, if it’s, you know, four or five things that are multiple choice questions, most people are willing to kind of click through that because you’re positioning it as exactly that you’re not doing this to say we wanna put together a, a slide deck to investors showing the composition of our audience, give us data.

Brennan Dunn (20:51): Instead it’s positioned as if I can find out why you’re here and what you need. I can reduce the amount of noise I send you. Yeah. I can make sure that I’m giving you exactly what you need. And people tend to agree with that and like that. So, yeah, I mean, we’re, I’m getting four outta five people who join giving me more than just a name and email. I know in my case what their current email marketing objective is, what email provider they use. If they have one, how comfortable they are with it, what they’ve done with it, if they haven’t, why haven’t they signed up yet? So for me, I’m like, well, I can go and say, send an email right now to everyone on my list, who does not use an email marketing platform and maybe they’ve struggled. Maybe they haven’t done it cuz they’re not sure which one. Yeah. Well, I just came up with this great, uh, review video I put together and I really pushed the affiliate thing that I, you know, for the platform I, I recommend. And that’s how I could target that for, right. Yeah. So I can do like so many interesting things once you have, uh, that data in your database.

John Jantsch (21:49): Yeah. So, so let’s wrap up on, uh, the idea of creating personalized messages on your website. I think a lot of what we’ve talked about implies that I’ve got that data. So now I can send better email, but a lot of us out there myself included have segments, different, unique segments that we sell mm-hmm and wouldn’t it be amazing if on the homepage , you know, when they came there, they saw case studies and testimonials that were only related or were specifically related to that segment. And so talk a little bit about the idea that using this tool and using this data that we collect, we can actually now have the website say different stuff.

Brennan Dunn (22:25): Yeah. So the way, the way we do it with the right message is we allow you to quickly like click on a headline. So what you could do is you could go into our tool within the tool, go to your homepage, let’s say, and then click on the headline, like, you know, your main headline mm-hmm and then toggle between all the different segments you’ve defined. So if you’ve defined, um, segment a segment B and segment C, you could say go to a, change the headline to a B change this, click on this picture, change it to the picture of the Panda for people in a change it to, you know, change this, change that. And it’s really just kind of very, if you’ve ever used a tool like Optimizly or VWO, it’s very similar in that respect where it’s point and click. So that that’s how we’ve designed that.

Brennan Dunn (23:07): But what I usually tell people is even if they don’t want to go that far one easy fix, it’s not the most elegant fix, but it’s an easy fix would be, let’s say you’re promoting a new product or course, and duplicate your sales page like two or three times and make those tweaks. And then just within your email platform, when you’re writing the emails, have some conditions, let’s say if they’re in this segment, point them to landing page a. If they’re in this segment, go to line page B and, and obviously it’s not the nicest way of doing it, especially when you consider that one benefit of a platform like right messages, we can do multivariate personalization. So you can say, you know, these benefits are here because they’re in this job role, this headlines, because they’re in this industry, this testimonial is because they’re struggling with this pain point and that can yield. If you just do simple math, it can yield, you know, 10 industries, times 10 job roles. You already have to have a hundred variations, which would be untenable if you were to duplicate it a hundred times. Yeah,

John Jantsch (24:08): Yeah, yeah. And is it, does it work with the various page builders that are out there now because you you’re just putting in blocks of HTML or something

Brennan Dunn (24:15): That’s right. So all we’re doing the easiest way to think about it is we’re effectively, post-procesing the page. So you put our script on the site. What we do is your page builder sends up the wire the final page. And we’re just saying, even though the server says, we should be showing the headline that says ABCs, we see their tech customers. So before they even see the page, we’re gonna change it out to X, Y, Z. So it’s just a, kind of a, the benefit there for us is it’s, it’s agnostic in terms of what you put it on, it’ll work on anything that allows you to just run our JavaScript on

John Jantsch (24:46): It. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Brendan, thanks for taking time to stop by the duct tape marketing podcast. You, you wanna send people obviously we’ll have a link to right message. But do you want anywhere else you wanna send people to connect with you?

Brennan Dunn (24:57): Yeah. I mean the, the, you know, besides right message. I, I do write weekly, like you mentioned, at create and sell.co and there, I just write about everything from, you know, tagging versus custom fields to what I’ve talked about recently.

John Jantsch (25:11): A lot of email stuff,

Brennan Dunn (25:13): Just email, like, you know, should you have design emails versus simple text? Yeah. I mean just a lot of emailing, things like that.

John Jantsch (25:19): Awesome. Well, again, uh, thanks for sub by and hopefully, uh, we’ll run into you, uh, one of these days again, out there on the road.

Brennan Dunn (25:26): Absolutely. Thanks John. Hey,

John Jantsch (25:28): And one final thing before you go, you know how I talk about marketing strategy strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the marketing strategy assessment. You can find it @ marketingassessment.co not dot com.check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketingassessment.co I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network.

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Why Call Tracking Metrics Matter To Your Marketing Efforts

Why Call Tracking Metrics Matter To Your Marketing Efforts written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Marketing Podcast with Todd and Laure Fisher

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Todd and Laure Fisher. Husband and wife co-founders, Todd and Laure Fisher founded CallTrackingMetrics in 2011 in their basement and together have grown it into an Inc. 500-rated, top-ranked conversation analytics software serving over 30,000 businesses around the world.

Key Takeaway:

Today, it seems as though there’s a never-ending list of channels and ways in which your customers can communicate with you and your business. We often hear from small businesses that their marketing works, they just don’t know which part. And because of that, many businesses waste their time spinning their wheels on channels that aren’t bringing them business.

In this episode, I chat with Husband and wife co-founders of CallTrackingMetrics, Todd and Laure Fisher, about why call tracking metrics matter to your marketing efforts and how you can utilize it today to double down on what’s working for your business.

Questions I ask Todd and Laure Fisher:

  • [1:41] What led you to where we are today?
  • [2:15] How did the idea come about to create the company?
  • [4:02] What is call tracking and how do marketers use it today?
  • [7:08] What are some of the best uses for the various touchpoints with prospects and customers?
  • [11:26] The digital world is coming under a lot of scrutinies — so how are you prepping for that from a customer tracking perspective?
  • [14:02] Does your tool provide things like HIPAA compliance for people that are obviously in the medical area?
  • [14:35] How does call tracking play into personal segmentation?
  • [16:03] Do you think that being able to identify if somebody is a customer or somebody is not a customer could trigger different behavior?
  • [17:12] If someone was comparing you to other call tracking players out there, how would you say CallTrackingMetrics is different?
  • [18:27] How does a call tracking tool play into SMS marketing?
  • [19:49] Could you tell us more about CallTrackingMetrics?

More About Todd and Laure Fisher:

Take The Marketing Assessment:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the female startup club, hosted by Doone Roison, and brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. If you’re looking for a new podcast, the Female Startup Club shares tips, tactics and strategies from the world’s most successful female founders, entrepreneurs, and women in business to inspire you to take action and get what you want out of your career. One of my favorite episodes who should be your first hire, what’s your funding plan, Dr. Lisa Cravin shares her top advice from building spotlight oral. Listen to the female startup club, wherever you get your podcasts.

John Jantsch (00:48): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guests today are Todd and Laure Fisher, their husband and wife co-founders of Call Tracking Metrics company. They found in 2011 in their basement, and together have grown it into an Inc 500 rated top ranked conversion analytics software serving over 30,000 businesses around the world. So Todd and Laure, I don’t often have multiple guests, so I’ll try to not fumble my questions to, to either, or you just take your turns. Whoever’s whoever wants to jump in next, go from there. So welcome to the show.

Laure Fisher (01:26): Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Todd Fisher (01:27): Yeah. Thank

John Jantsch (01:28): You. So, so I’d love to hear about your journey. You know, every entrepreneur has some unique, uh, journey that brought into this point. I do know in looking at a little bit of your background, you’re not software engineers, you didn’t grow up in, in that necessarily. Um, you came from other professions, so I’d love to hear what led you, uh, to where we are today.

Laure Fisher (01:46): Well, that Todd has a, his is more technical

Todd Fisher (01:49): I was gonna say, I have a technical software engineering background. Lori does not.

John Jantsch (01:53): Ah,

Todd Fisher (01:54): Okay. So, but that’s part of what I think made it work really well for the two of us. So Lori has a, a business background. I have a, an engineering background and so the two of us together, we can also kind of split what we focus on, uh, which I think also avoids conflict, uh, which is good.

John Jantsch (02:09): Oh, it absolutely awesome. You kind of have your strengths that you bring and your balance yeah. Was the idea to create the company one that you said, gosh, there’s this huge need out here and, and a gap in the market, we should create it. Or were you trying to do this in your own careers? And couldn’t find the right tool.

Todd Fisher (02:29): I think I’ll take that one, Laurie. So, so I think that it wasn’t sort of something we sought out to do. It was more of Laurie and I were both sort of running it. I’ll say I’ll call it a fledgling consulting company. We were trying to make things for our customers or provide AdWords support, SEO support. Okay. And a handful of them. I think two, we were very explicit and they would not take our business unless we could track and compound that with the fact that we were just coming out of that really nasty recession and, you know, still sort of, it was very raw, right. That, you know, people, after you finished a job for them, maybe we built a website and then they would be like, sorry, I can’t pay for, you know, that website cuz uh, we’re going outta business. So we dealt with a lot of that.

Todd Fisher (03:09): Right. And then, you know, so part of it was also like, Hey, the appeal of really sort of the appeal of having a, a, a software business that we could charge upfront. And we could also focus our energy instead of it being spread, you know, from one project to the next being completely unrelated from each other. Yeah, sure. There are things lessons you can carry forward, right. With what you, you know, suffered in, you know, learning for one customer to the next. Right. But it’s not, doesn’t compound as effectively as, Hey, it’s one software platform. Right. And we’re still kind of consulting, but we’re doing it in the context of one platform. So it’s has a much, it, it works better.

John Jantsch (03:47): Yeah. I’ve been throwing call tracking out here and, and call tracking metrics the name of your company, but we’re probably ought to back up just a little bit. And you know, a lot of listeners of course, are very savvy, understand what that is, or at least have experienced in some fashion, but maybe give an overview of, you know, what call tracking is and how, you know, marketers use it.

Todd Fisher (04:07): Sure. Yeah. Do you wanna take, do you wanna, I can. Okay. Uh, so, so call tracking, you know, the early days started out with here’s a phone number, put this phone number on your billboard and we’ll measure how many times that phone number is called. And that must mean that billboard is worth X, right. And it sort of evolved with Google ads to, you know, okay, now somebody clicked on an ad and if they made a phone call, can you tie that phone call back to that particular ad in a particular, but over time, I’d say the real value is that now we can help you answer the question of not just which phone number, uh, and which click, but was there a sale, right? Yeah. Was there meaningful conversion that occurred? And if there was, well, let’s make sure we can communicate that back to Facebook, Google, whatever ad platform you might be using.

Todd Fisher (04:53): Right. And to me, that’s more of the, the value story here. Right. And, um, and then the mere fact that we’re handling this phone call means that now we have a call recording, we have speech intelligence. Right. So we, we could say, Hey, somebody was pretty angry on that call. You might wanna work on that aspect of your business as well. Right. So it really kind of is interesting that it, you know, sort of all started with wanting to answer the simple question of how many people, how effective is this ad. Yeah. And it sort of trickles into all of the impacts that, that one ad and that led with all the customer interactions that occur right back to

John Jantsch (05:30): Yeah. And I, I think it really, it does kind of answer that like, uh, the phone companies used to talk about the, the last mile, you know, question was that there was a whole lot of data we had, but we couldn’t really understand. I mean, it allowed us to weed out stuff that just totally didn’t work, but we really couldn’t refine what was bringing us revenue necessarily. And I think that that’s, you know, for a lot of marketers, obviously, you know, the old joke kind of about, I, you know, some of my marketing works, I just dunno which, you know, part it. And I think a lot of marketers still take that approach of if I throw enough stuff out there and, you know, I think the thing that’s really missing from that approach, of course, you could be very successful and grow a business. But if you knew that 20%, that was really working, you just double, triple, quadruple down on that and you’d really have a business wouldn’t you

Laure Fisher (06:15): Mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm I know. And now we started with it being about phone calls, but now it’s all these other communication channels. Right. Keep getting invented. Right. And so we’ve, we have to keep kind of weaving in all of these other channels and it really, it, you know, companies had all these different platforms for all these different channels. You know, they had like their email service, they had their, you know, text message platform. They had their chat platform. And now it’s really about bringing those all together so that you can see that journey all the way through all of the different, you know, mediums that people are communicating through.

John Jantsch (06:47): Yeah. Well, in forms even, I mean, I, we have clients that half half of their contacts, phones calls, and half of them are, you know, consultation form fills, you know, so I mean, being, you really do need, uh, to bring many of those things to together. You, you we’ve kind of talked about it, but maybe you could cite a few examples. I mean, the obvious one is, you know, are my ads working or paying, but what are some other uses or maybe what you would call best uses for, for this type of tracking?

Laure Fisher (07:14): I would say one thing is what’s happening on the phone calls is really interesting. A lot of, a lot of companies think they kind of, they know what’s happening on the calls because their team tells them. But when you actually hear the calls and listen to them in person, you know, you learn a lot. And then also you can use machine learning and to have, you know, a system like ours, listen to the calls in a way and scan them for patterns. So you could figure out, you know, what words keep getting mentioned in the call, you know, where does your salesperson have to say no, you know, we don’t do that. What are the trends that you’re seeing in terms of, you know, voice tones in their voice and when they might be getting angry. And there’s just so much you can learn from actually what’s happening in the call when you actually hear it directly in the call versus relying on interpretation from someone else telling you

John Jantsch (08:00): Well, and I would, I would also say, I mean, we have clients that most of their phone calls seem to come on Monday, Tuesday . And that really has some decision making, you know, about what we better have, you know, ready on Monday, Tuesday, right? Yeah.

Laure Fisher (08:13): Yes, yeah. Yes. Like which agents are performing, you know, you see all sorts of interesting information about who answers their phone really quick and whose phone calls last forever, but the calls don’t seem to go that well, right. You know, you can see all sorts of interesting performance data and also understanding when you run an ad, how quickly do the phone calls happen. Right. So what should you be thinking about in terms of budgeting for advertising and how that translates into communications coming into to your call center?

John Jantsch (08:39): So, so we are, you know, my agency and the training that I do. I mean, we are big proponents of this for a lot of the reasons we’ve already talked about, but for those agencies out there listening, this is an amazing way for you to prove your worth. And I think a lot of people forget that, you know, they’re given reports with traffic on them and, you know, with, uh, keyword rankings and whatnot. But you know, when the client says, well, yeah, we’re not getting any more business. And then I go listen to five calls that just don’t get answered, or they go to voicemail or, you know, whatever it is. I mean, it’s pretty easy to say we’re doing our job , you know, but you’re not. But then O obviously, you know, the better scenario that is that, that, you know, you’re very, is very easy then to connect all the analytics together, to show, you know, this phone call was actually worth, you know, $12,473 this month, or, you know, or these group of phone calls. So it’s a great tool to, you know, to prove why you’re charging what you’re charging.

Laure Fisher (09:31): Yeah. It’s and it’s interesting. Cause a lot of times CU customers will say, they thought they’re surprised by some of the things that, you know, they might an ad, a particular ad channel might be driving. A lot of traffic might be driving a lot of phone calls. But when you look at like what types of phone calls is driving and what the long term value of those customers are, it’s surprising to people sometimes, you know, they yeah. Have all sorts of learnings around like organic versus paid and, you know, social media and what really is the value of that. So it allows them to just, you know, really kind of understand even further, like, was this really a good lead? You know, was this really worth it? You know, this channel that we invested in

John Jantsch (10:05): And now let’s hear from a sponsor, look, you’ve worked hard to grow your business and finding CRM software. You can trust to help grow it even more. It isn’t easy, whether you’re starting out or scaling up, HubSpot is here to help your business grow better with a CRM platform that helps put your customers first. And it’s trusted by enterprises and entrepreneurs alike with easy to use marketing tools like drag and drop web page editors that require no custom code content strategy tools, where you can create topic clusters that automatically link supporting content back to your core pillar pages to ensure search engines can easily crawl your site and identify you as an expert on any given topic. HubSpot helps your business work smarter, not harder, learn how your business can grow better @ hubspot.com.

John Jantsch (10:59): So a lot of channels, email specifically, and certainly on social, uh, media and Google’s making some adjustments about, you know, tracking has actually become an evil word in, in some service, right. See, except for, uh, mailing lists, you can, you know, you can buy a mailing list that, that has anything you want on it. send it to anybody you want for

Laure Fisher (11:20): Everybody lives, drive it over to their house. Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:23): You can know what diseases they have, what medications they’re taking. Right. But let’s get back to the, what we can talk about, you know, tracking in the, you know, in the email world in the digital world is coming under a lot of scrutiny. So how are you preparing for that? Or what do you have to say about, you know, the person that’s saying, oh, but we’re not supposed to track.

Todd Fisher (11:42): Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, I think there’s a lot of misconceptions out there around this, but you know, it is what it is. You know, first of all, one of the things that we say is, Hey, listen, like we’re, it’s first party tracking. Not only that, but somebody clicked on this paid ad. That was a very expensive, uh, thing for that business to, to put out all the businesses really asking is to understand whether or not that expensive paid ad is having some value. Right. So that they can better focus their effort for the next time. Right. And so I, I, I really think that if, if you, you know, it can explain to somebody, Hey, you know, for example, we, we had a, I think it was like a lawyer who was explaining to me, he’s like, you know, my, my ads cost $50 a click.

Todd Fisher (12:19): Right. I was just like, wow. So he’s like, you absolutely need to, I don’t wanna know unless these are turning into phone calls sure. Is what he told me. That was our, one of our first customers. Yep. And I remember being like, okay, well, that’s, uh, really important. Let’s make sure we, you know, we can answer that question for you. So, you know, often I hear is, you know, you know, people go down, the path of tracking is evil and then they start dropping words like deep state and, you know, you know, you know, foreign actors and all this kind of stuff. And I’m like, well, wait a second. Who are we talking about here? Cause the plumber down the street, when you click on their ad, I think it’s gonna be okay. Right. So what are we actually doing there to prepare for that? So, so first of all, um, there’s things that are just happening, right? So Google, um, has been forced to change how they track Google ads, right? So there’s something called GBRA w braid and only just recently were the APIs available for us to actually pass those tokens back to Google for conversions. But you know, we work with Google’s ecosystem, we’ll collect those tokens and we’ll pass them to Google in, in response to conversion events. Yeah. What else

Laure Fisher (13:22): Also giving customers tools to manage the data that they collect. Yes. You know, so whatever provider they’re using, they need to have the tools to get rid of things they don’t need control so that they’re collecting just what they need, delete things they don’t need. So a lot of it, I find even with service providers, we use, you know, that it’s, it’s all about the cus us being able to control what it is that we’re collecting. Cause a lot of times people find that they’re collecting all this information. They don’t even need half of it. So get smart about, you know, what it is that you’re collecting. It’s true. Also when you look at GDPR compliance as well, that you really need to be able to justify what you’re collecting and, and have a good handle over how you’re securing it and how to get rid of it, you know, when you’re done with it.

John Jantsch (14:02): And does your tool provide, you know, things like HIPAA compliance, you know, for people that obviously in that medical area that one’s probably touchier than GDPR for a lot of people,

Todd Fisher (14:13): It’s funny. It is. Yeah. But in a different way, GDPR and and HIPAA kind of have different kind of edges to them. So, but we cater HIPAA both.

John Jantsch (14:21): Mm-hmm, one of the things that is becoming increasingly popular maybe because the technology is caught up to make it increasingly easier to do is segmenting customers and leads and people that are on your list already, not on your list already. How does call tracking play into that, maybe that kind of personal segmenting journey.

Todd Fisher (14:41): Um, so yeah, so, so we have a lot of a attribution that we can apply to the contact. So one of the things we do is when you make a phone call into our system, we actually create two records. It’s the, the call activity. And then if it’s not already created the contact record, and then as that user kind of interacts with you, we collect additional information on that contact record. And one of the, one of the big use cases, I like to kind of say, Hey, is, this is good, right? Um, is let’s say you’re driving and to get ahold of, you know, business X, Y, or Z, you know, unfortunately you did have to go through a rather complicated voice venue, right? Your first time you’ve ever called them. Right. Right. You had press one and you had to listen, press two and maybe listen, press four or something.

Todd Fisher (15:23): Now you’re finally talking to a person who’s really able to help you. Right. You’re in your car though. The kids are screaming in the back drive under a bridge and the call drops, right. This is like tragic situation. Right? Well, if, if that business had known who you were and in our system set up a rule that just said, Hey, if it’s within, let’s say 24 hours, skip all the voicemail stuff and just go directly to the, the, the last agent who you were talking to. Right. Well then imagine how much better this would be when like 10 seconds later you come outta the bridge or outta the tunnel and you call back and well, wow. You’re talking to the same person again. Right.

John Jantsch (16:03): What’s interesting. I think even just knowing that somebody is a customer or somebody is not a customer, you know, that just that designation could certainly trigger different behavior, couldn’t it?

Todd Fisher (16:15): Yes. Yeah. And that’s been a big part of our product is just helping to cater to those kinds of use cases where it’s a repeat call. It’s an, you know, we know that this person was inquiring about product X, Y, or Z, right. Cause of the lead form that they filled out. Yeah. So now instead of routing them to a general queue, maybe we’re gonna route ’em to a specialist queue. And so in this case, you know, you can say, Hey, you know, tracking really gave you a better experience. Right? Yeah. Maybe it took some of the frustration of your day out of your day. Right? Yeah. That’s the way I try to position it is, Hey, there’s lots of friction points here. You know, when you call that business, you really feel like entitled so that they should know everything about you. Well, that’s part of what tracking helps do, right. Is give you that kind of white glove treatment.

John Jantsch (16:56): Well, and, and I think the, the beauty of what you just said is if it’s working well, you didn’t even know it did it. Yes. And that, of course that’s the frustrating thing for somebody that sits there and codes all day. Right. that’s right. You know how hard it is to actually make it

Todd Fisher (17:11): . Yes.

John Jantsch (17:12): Yes. So, so if somebody was looking at you and there are other players out there that, that do call tracking and whatnot as well, and you know, what would you say, Hey, but here’s our, here’s how we’re different or here’s, you know, here’s our super feature that nobody else has.

Todd Fisher (17:25): Sure. Um, what do you think Laura? I mean, I think what we really do and shine in our space is that we really bring multiple facets of the space together in almost the hub fashion, where we have other, we, so in, in a way, I’d say we have competitors in many different industries because we kind of bring many different industries into one platform. And that’s really our specialty is that we’ve brought these things together. So you don’t have to say, I want my call tracking company. I want my contact center software. I want my CRM software, you know, you can kind of just pull them all together into one place and it integrates better this way. Right. I’d say in our space, we, we are friends with everyone because we integrate with everyone, but, but we can also provide the, the feature as well. So you kind of get choice in that way.

John Jantsch (18:08): You, you know, one channel, I guess, that we haven’t even talked about that I meant to, because so many businesses, some businesses are using for outbound marketing, but I don’t think that’s really the true use. A lot of businesses are using SMS as a true customer service tool. Your point is coming up or, you know, it’s time to reorder, you know, whatever to just kind of, and people are expecting that and appreciate the text that way. How does, how does a call tracking tool play into that? Well,

Laure Fisher (18:31): You can, you can tie text message campaigns to, you know, a person and their pattern of interaction. So, you know, maybe they have filled out a form that, you know, they’re interested in a certain product, they clicked on an ad. They’ve talked to someone, you know, about that phone call, what happened in the phone call. You can now target your text message information to them in a whole different way. Obviously you need to have permission to text them, but you’ve, you’re able to segment them right. And target the communication. The other thing that I think is really important in text messaging, a lot of people think about when, you know, the, the blast text blast. Right. But what I think is really interesting is the conversational texting where you can actually have just a one-on-one conversation, whether it’s for service or a sales interaction, the, you know, the people are so much more likely to respond to a text message and open a text message. And especially if it’s easy, you know, schedule, appointment via text, or, you know, have like, I actually have like a conversation with a salesperson via text without having get on the phone with ’em. So that I think is really interesting. And, and something, I think a lot of companies are just starting to kind of scratch the surface on, maybe they’ve done their like text blast with their promo codes and all of that, but really figuring out how do we create kind of meaningful interactions with customers over text messaging.

John Jantsch (19:43): Yeah, absolutely. So Todd, Lori, thanks for, so by the duct tape marketing podcast, uh, tell us a little more about call tracking. Tell us, give us kind of the 32nd commercial or anywhere you wanna send people to find out more specifically about call tracking metrics.

Laure Fisher (19:58): Yeah. I would go to call tracking metrics.com. That’s the best place to go. And you’ll see that we’ve got three different plans you can sign up right on our website. We have an amazing support team, amazing professional services team. That’ll help you implement the service as well. So, you know, definitely feel free to call our sales team, have a demo, or you can sign up right on the website and get started.

John Jantsch (20:18): Awesome. Well, again, thanks for sound by the duct tape marketing podcast, and hopefully we’ll run into you both, uh, somewhere out there on the road.

Laure Fisher (20:24): Thank you.

John Jantsch (20:36): One final. Hey, and one final thing before you go, you know how I talk about marketing strategy strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the marketing strategy assessment. You can find it@marketingassessmentdotco.com.co check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketing assessment.co I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network.

HubSpot Podcast Network is the audio destination for business professionals who seek the best education and inspiration on how to grow a business.

The Role Operations Plays In Marketing

The Role Operations Plays In Marketing written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Marketing Podcast with Sara Nay

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Sara Nay. Sara is the COO at Duct Tape Marketing, Co-Founder at Spark Lab Consulting, and host of the Agency Spark Podcast.

Key Takeaway:

Marketing systems and operations systems are two halves to a whole company – bringing the two together can give you the full picture and ultimately, effective control over your organization. In this episode, I talk with Sara Nay about her responsibilities as COO at Duct Tape Marketing, the role operations plays in marketing, and how creating and utilizing systems can help you double down on what’s working and avoid spinning your wheels on what’s not.

Questions I ask Sara Nay:

  • [1:22] What does being COO of Duct Tape Marketing look like?
  • [1:48] How does the COO work with the CEO?
  • [2:51] What’s been the hardest thing for you to learn or adapt to in your role?
  • [4:10] How do you think it’s different working with family?
  • [5:25] What role does operations really play in marketing?
  • [7:29] Could you talk a little bit about operationalizing marketing so that you can deliver it consistently and in a repeatable manner?
  • [12:35] How do you view your system as a way to get better?
  • [15:18] Where could we make improvements after somebody becomes a customer and how do we connect marketing and operations and then add systems?
  • [18:31] Could you talk a little bit about what you do with Spark Lab when someone comes to you who is trying to take this operationalized approach?
  • [20:42] Could you tell us where people can find that and find out more about Spark Lab consulting?

More About Sara Nay:

Take The Marketing Assessment:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the salesman podcast, hosted by will Barron and brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. Look, if you work in sales, wanna learn how to sell, and frankly who doesn’t check out the salesman podcast, where host will Barron helps sales professionals learn how to find buyers and win big business ineffective and ethical ways. And if you wanna start someplace, I recommend the four step process to influencing buying decisions. Listen to the salesman podcast, wherever you get your podcast.

John Jantsch (00:44): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch, and I’m gonna do a solo show today. It’s actually been a while, but I wanna cover a topic that is very high on a lot of business owners’ minds. And that’s the idea of retention of internal team members, internal customers, whatever you wanna call them, employees, staff, team members. This has been a really hot topic of the last year, and I think it’s not going away. There’s a lot of pressure for a lot of reasons on this. So I wanna talk about it as the subject that it is, obviously it turns into production issue or fulfillment or capacity issue for a lot of organizations, but it’s really a marketing problem, or at least can be solved I think, with a marketing solution. So that’s what I’m going to present.

John Jantsch (01:34): Hey, I also wanted to let you know that I have been working very hard on a unique marketing strategy assessment. A lot of people have these, uh, marketing assessments out there that that really are just measuring your tactic approach. What you’re using, what you’re doing. I’ve created something that really is heart and soul to the idea of strategy before tactics marketing as a system. And I’d love for you to check it out. Uh, the URL is marketingassessment.co. So it’s marketing assessment.co go on over there and, uh, check it out to go through. It takes about, I don’t know, five minutes to answer the 20 questions and, and the report that you get at the end of it, frankly, is, is enough gold to, to have you actually, uh, improve or find area of for improvement in your, in your marketing strategy. So, uh, check it out, marketing assessment dot C.

John Jantsch (02:29): All right. So let’s talk today about rethinking the recruitment journey. You know, one of the things that I think that certainly I’ve said this many times to anyone that will listen, one of the things that I think the pandemic and, and a great deal of what went on with the, the, the chaos of the last couple years is that, you know, a lot of businesses do pretty well in good times just by being in the right place at the right time. A lot of businesses during the pandemic learn that, but boy, in tough times, growth comes from being important in the lives of your customers and your employees. And it’s a constant, uh, battle. It’s constant shifting there’s the leverage changes, you know, so to today we work with a lot of folks that are saying, Hey, I don’t need more customers. I need more people.

John Jantsch (03:12): So the leverages in many cases is, has gone squarely to the employee. And I think that changing dynamic, I think does have a tendency to allow people or, or to get people in the habit of thinking, oh, this is just a vending machine approach, need more customers, put some money in run, some ads, run a funnel and create more customers, oh, need more employees just go run. Some ads, go to the job boards, put in some and voila pops up some new employees. And I, I wanna share, I’m gonna rifle through. ’em pretty quickly a few statistics that should shed some light on how we have to be thinking about this in a much different way than the vending machine or the funnel approach. Apparently less than 15% of the, of every job that’s advertised on those job boards, you know, monster indeed, et cetera, gets filled by candidates who actually apply through the job board.

John Jantsch (04:07): So we’re spending a whole bunch of money there, and it’s not really producing the results. 50% of candidates say they wouldn’t work for a company with a bad reputation, even for a pay increase S true of customers coming to us. Why wouldn’t it be true? Of course of employees as well, 79% of candidates use social media in their job search. We have to be where they are. That’s, that’s true. Again for customers as certainly as much as it is for staff. 92% of consumers will visit a brand’s website a first time for reasons other than making a purchase, guess who is visiting your website for reasons other than making a purchase people you might hire, or you might wanna hire 71% of employees say that they would accept a pay cut for a better working experience. A flip side of that is I know I’ve paid more or a product or a service when I got, or was expecting to get a better experience.

John Jantsch (05:05): I think it’s just the flip side of that exact same thing. 89% of employers think employees leave for more money. That’s why everybody defaults to more money. That’s why everybody defaults to lowering their prices when, uh, they’re trying to attract new customers. It, again, it’s the flip side of the exact same thing, but according to a very large gala poll, only 12% of employees actually leave for money. And I think the thing that, the point that I’m really trying to drive home here, in fact, if you’re really in a hurry, just take note of this idea and, and you’ll have the essence of where I’m gonna go with this, uh, today. People really aren’t candidates or consumers. They’re both, there’s no distinction. I mean, people are just people. So the vending machine approach of let’s put money in and get more customers, put money in, get more employees, lower prices, you know, advertise bonuses, you know, for getting employees.

John Jantsch (06:05): I mean that, that approach will draw some people, I suppose to you, but you know, people who come to you for a price increase or price decrease, or employees that come to you because they get a dollar, two more, an hour are gonna leave for the exact same reason. So when I talk about the customer journey and the employee journey, or how somebody, uh, comes to, to join an organization, it, it it’s really in a lot of ways, it’s not even a marketing issue. It, it is a strategy issue that I think can be solved with of the marketing approach. So here’s the three steps for creating the perfect recruitment strategy. First one is to know who you’re trying to recruit. And I know everybody says that, but what people forget to say is that you probably already have some ideal employees in your organization.

John Jantsch (06:51): Just like I talk about narrowing your focus to the top 20% of your customers, look at your team. You can do the same thing. What is it about your highest performing, uh, folks, the people that thrive in your organization? What is it about them that you need to understand? What behavior, what characteristics, what objectives, what problem can you promise to solve as an organization? That’s always been true from a, an attraction standpoint for a, a differentiator for your customers is going to be true, certainly for employees. So how can you create an end to end customer journey? Think in terms of employee recruitment pipeline, it’s something that doesn’t, it isn’t meant to be an event. Oh, I have a position to fill. We need to do X that’s. What gets people in, in the mindset of, oh, I have to offer more money. That’s the only way to get more people or I have to spend more money on the job boards.

John Jantsch (07:45): That’s the only way to get more people. It has to be something that becomes part of the DNA of, of all of your marketing. So look to your current employees and I’m gonna give you four questions and you might come back to this, uh, part of the recording. I’m gonna give you four questions. If you need to write these down to, to try to either think about, or even even ask your employees sometimes asking is tough because it’s the boss ask asking. And it’s like, is my answer really gonna ? Is it gonna be used for good or bad? But here, your question to ponder, what does their current work life situation look like? You’ll find that they probably have certain goals or in a certain point in their life that they, you know, have certain values. Now that doesn’t, I, this is not an appeal to say everybody in your organization needs to think and look alike.

John Jantsch (08:35): It’s just that there are gonna be certain situations that I think might be keys or might be signals to, you know, what you’re looking for, or, or at least what you start promoting. If you find that many, uh, folks in your organization enjoy a certain type of work or a certain type of environment, they Excel in, then you wanna start talking about that. That that’s what we do here. All right. Second question. What do they enjoy? What frustrates them in what work environment do they Excel? Number three, and number four, what factors were involved in them making a decision to come to your organization? If you could start to understand doesn’t mean you have to have all the answers, but if you can start to at least think about the answers to those questions, you’re gonna have a better idea of the message you need to take out there to the world and start talking about why your place is a great place to work.

John Jantsch (09:25): And speaking of that, one of the greatest marketing messages, this is to attract customers is to talk about your people is talk about how exceptional your place is to be an employee. In fact, we’ve actually moved many of the marketing messages to be, you know, for example, a remodeling contractor, our people make your remodeling experience exceptional. That is a very positive, attractive message for the people that want to remodel their kitchen, because maybe they’ve were worked with not such so exceptional people, but it’s also a great message for the potential employee. You’re leading, talking about the fact that your people are exceptional. Hey, I wanna work there now. Also, don’t forget. As I reminded you many times, don’t forget about Google reviews. If you’re getting some amount of Google reviews, pour over those word for word first off, what you’re probably going to see is that if your people are truly exceptional, your customers are going to be noting that they’re going to be actually naming them by name.

John Jantsch (10:29): In fact, they might not even name your company, but they might name somebody who works at your company. So start understanding what they about your people, about the experience that they’re having. Those are some real cues to what maybe you ought to be saying. The promise that you ought to start making, uh, to, to demonstrate that you can deliver a better experience. You know, customers don’t actually change comp I mean companies, I mean, I don’t think we want to jump around and say, well, that didn’t work outs, or maybe it did work out, but I’m gonna go look for a new one. Uh, I think we want to stay with companies. And so we don’t really leave them. We leave the experience that we’re having with them. And now let’s hear from our sponsor. Look, if you’re tired of slowing down your teams with clunky software processes and marketing that is difficult to scale, HubSpot is here to help you and, and your business grow better with collaboration tools and built in SEO optimizations.

John Jantsch (11:23): A HubSpot CRM platform is tailor made to help you scale your marketing with ease, integrated calendars, tasks, and commenting, help hybrid teams stay connected while automated SEO recommendations, intuitively optimize your webpage content for increased organic traffic ditch, the difficult and dial up your marketing with tools that are easy to use and easy to scale learn how your business can grow better @ hubspot.com.

John Jantsch (11:52): are the third component of this strategy idea is that is, is to think about this end to end journey. You know, a lot of handing these days about all the things that have changed in, in, in marketing and in business. But, you know, I think the thing that doesn’t get talked about enough, the thing that’s changed the most is how P people choose to become customers and employees. They have so many options today and how they decide on the company that they’re going to, to hire is, is all about the research that they do.

John Jantsch (12:24): And they go out there and, and in a lot of ways are making a decision, you know, before we even know that they’re looking at our organization and this, this is certainly true of some be coming to be hired as, as an employee. So we have to think about the marketing hourglass as we apply it to the employee journey. And so, uh, as a reminder, I know I talk about this all the time, but the marketing hourglass for us is, has seven stages. They are no like trust, try by repeat and refer. And so what I’m asking you to consider is what is, what are you doing to intentionally guide somebody to come to know about you and, and start to think, Hey, this is a place I might wanna work, but then as they start to dig in, you know, what message are they seeing as in terms of a story, are, are they connecting with your values?

John Jantsch (13:10): Who do they meet first? Is it easy to find out more information? If for me, how often people will have a, Hey, come, you know, we’re hiring and then you click on a button. And before you ever find anything out about the company, you have a, a five and a half page application to fill out. That’s like going from, Hey, you know about us now, I wanna buy you wanna buy and, you know, skipping the steps of trust, building that, that really make you, you, the obvious choice, obviously reviews, employee stories, your values and actions mentions in the media. Those are all things that are part of the employee journey today. And in fact, as I started to say, I think the, the beauty of this idea of branding your organization is a great place to work is it’s a killer marketing message. I mean, how could that possibly be a, for anybody who wants to hire you or, or buy your products and services?

John Jantsch (13:59): So promoting, uh, part of your content strategy ought to be in fact, a huge part of your content strategy ought to be, to promote things that your employees, your team members are doing, how they’re advancing, the fun that you’re having at your organization. I mean, these are things that go in many cases in the early part of the journey, they go a lot farther than the benefits that I’m gonna actually receive, because I think people, uh, more and more are, are leaving organizations maybe even for pay cuts or, or certainly not staying at organizations because the 401k is the bonus is great. If the environment is not great, if the experience of being an employee there is not great, then none of that really matters. So then if we slip over to the try and buy and, and obviously substitute higher for buy, if you like, , it’s not a real stretch in my mind.

John Jantsch (14:53): So the try process, what, what is that application process look like? The phone screening, you have so many, and again, what happens is a lot of organizations don’t have an HR department, don’t have a professional who’s charged with the hiring experience. It’s the manager or the VP of something that actually has another job, and this is just something they are doing. And so the follow up and the experience, and, you know, once they come on board, the onboarding, the who, who their manager is, you know, how they interact with current employees. I mean, all of that, their training plan that’s laid up. The statistics are pretty crazy about when people leave organizations within the first night days. It’s because there was, there was no onboarding. It’s true of customers. You know, you’ve heard me talk about Joey. Coleman’s great book, how to keep, I can’t remember now the title, but how to keep an employee no, how to keep a customer for life.

John Jantsch (15:43): Although he is actually working on the employee one too, he tells me, but the idea behind it is make the first 90 to a hundred days an amazing experie. And you will not have the turnover that many organizations, uh, experience today. And speaking of that, you know, just like keeping customers is, is a far better way to grow a business. Keeping your employees is a far better way to grow, not just your team, but your organization. You know, the number one, uh, reason people are citing now for leaving organizations is a lack of respect, a, of a growth path or any kind of personal development. I mean, pay and benefits certainly shows up on the list, but it’s way down from things like respect and, and personal development. And then finally refer, I work with a lot of organizations that have happy, happy employees and happy customers.

John Jantsch (16:30): And, and we always scratch our heads say, well, why aren’t they referring us? And most of the time, it just comes down to the process. The, you know, it’s almost with, with employees, a lot of organizations almost treat it like, uh, you know, an expectation, a part of the job, you know, they offer a bonus. So it just becomes part of the pay. But the biggest reason people don’t make recommendations or referrals, both as customers. And it lawyers is they don’t understand or worse don’t trust the process. Maybe the hiring process for them was kind of wonky. Hey, they like being there now. but the, uh, the process itself was a little bit stressful. Do they wanna put their friend or, or neighbor, you know, through that kind of thing. And last thing about retention people don’t change jobs. I mean, they change about, so the, again, a lot of it has to do with the experience that they’re having, you know, maybe with the person they’re directly reporting to, and not necessarily with the organization, I’ve been running recruiting ads, a skilled labor positions for a number of years, and we test different headlines in different approaches.

John Jantsch (17:32): And the number one recruiting a for the past two years simply just says, respect with a question, mark, you know, do you feel like a respected member, uh, of a team in your current, uh, position? And it beats everything else. We try, you know, time and time again, because that is the, that is what’s missing for a lot of people in the, uh, positions. And I don’t care what type of job it is. I think that’s, uh, the piece that’s really missing. So think in terms of this idea of the marketing hourglass and, and applying that journey to the recruiting process, intentionally helping move people through the stages of no, like trust, try higher retained and refer. All right, that’s it for me today. Um, again, I wanted to remind you to check out the new assessment that, uh, I built it is a marketing strategy assessment.

John Jantsch (18:24): You can find it @ marketingassessment.co – not.com – marketingassessment.co. All right. Take care.

John Jantsch (18:32): All right. So that wraps up another episode. I wanna thank you so much for tuning in and, you know, we love those reviews and comments. And just generally tell me what you think also did you know that you could offer the duct tape marketing system, our system to your clients, and build a complete marketing consulting coaching business, or maybe level up an agency with some additional services. That’s right. Check out the duct tape marketing consultant network. You can find it at ducttapemarketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that offer our system to your clients tab.

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Understanding The Role Of The Chief Behind The Chief

Understanding The Role Of The Chief Behind The Chief written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Marketing Podcast with Cameron Herold

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Cameron Herold. Cameron is the founder of the COO Alliance, the World’s Leading Network for Seconds in Command. He’s the host of the Second in Command: The Chief Behind the Chief podcast, where he interviews COOs and other seconds to share their insights with his listeners. He’s also the author of 5 books, a top-rated international speaker, and has spoken on all 7 continents.

Key Takeaway:

The Chief Operating Officer is the second in command to the CEO – they’re the go-to person that should be running the business. In this episode, the founder of COO Alliance, Cameron Herald, talks about what exactly the role of a COO looks like, how that role shifts and changes from organization to organization, and how having a COO can accelerate the growth of your organization.

Questions I ask Cameron Herold:

  • [2:27] Are there some things in those early days of figuring operations out that really stuck with you?
  • [3:38] How would you define the job title COO?
  • [5:02] How does the COO or second in command orient themselves in larger organizations?
  • [6:55] How would you describe the second in command in a smaller, more nimble organization that doesn’t have that giant C-suite?
  • [8:20] What does an organization that decides that they need a COO need to be thinking about?
  • [10:56] Have you been faced with a scenario where people have come to you with the idea that they have outgrown their CEO?
  • [12:07] Is it possible to level up a COO they feel that they’ve outgrown?
  • [13:34] Is it simply a matter of finding somebody else who has been there in that role before or is it a different skillset or personality entirely?
  • [14:38] How much of the job is directing, forming, creating, or nurturing culture?
  • [15:35] For someone who is looking for a COO role or looking to replace someone, what do you see are some common mistakes that crop up?
  • [17:01] Are you saying that a COO should be looking for somebody that’s going to shore up where the CEO has weaknesses?
  • [18:06] Tell me a little bit about COO Alliance and what somebody would expect if they came to look at that.
  • [19:12] Do you feel like you’re giving some modern shape to the COO role in general?
  • [20:11] Tell us a little bit about the ways that people can engage with your organization.
  • [21:18] Where can people learn more?

More About Cameron Herold:

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John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the female startup club, hosted by Doone Roisin and brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. If you’re looking for a new podcast, the female startup club shares tips, tactics and strategies from the world’s most successful female founders, entrepreneurs, and women in business to inspire you to, to action and get what you want out of your career. One of my favorite episodes who should be your first hire, what’s your funding plan, Dr. Lisa Cravin shares her top advice from building spotlight oral. Listen to the female startup club, wherever you get your podcasts.

John Jantsch (00:48): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Cameron Herald. He is the founder of the COO Alliance, the world’s leading network for Second in Command, and he is also the host of the second in command, the chief behind the chief podcast, where he interviews COOs and other seconds to share their insights with his listeners. He’s also the author of five books and a top rated international speaker having spoken on all seven continents. Probably not too many people can say that. So Cameron, welcome to the, the show.

Cameron Herold (01:22): Hey John, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

John Jantsch (01:25): So you are a little beyond the 800 got junk story. You’ve done a lot of stuff since then, but that was, that’s been a pretty good calling card. Hasn’t it?

Cameron Herold (01:34): It’s been a great calling card. It’s funny. I was speaking with guy Kawasaki a few years ago and I said, you know, do you ever get tired of, of speaking with, uh, about apple? And he, he said, do you ever get tired of speaking about 100, got junk? I’m like, no, it was just such a, a passionate thing. But yeah, it was 15 years ago. I think it was 15 years ago next week that I left.

John Jantsch (01:52): Oh, wow. Well, I moved four years ago or bought a house in Colorado about four years ago and slowly moved. And I can say we, we had to use the services of one 800 got, uh, junk because we’d been in this for about 30 years. awesome. So it’s still out there working, I guess.

Cameron Herold (02:08): Well, my, yeah, my youngest son got to work in the trucks last summer for the first time. So he is kinda excited about that.

John Jantsch (02:14): So, so that was early in your career in a lot of ways. And in reading your story, you know, that was a, you were when you showed up as a youngster, so to speak and in that role, that was kind of a stretch or a new role for you. So are there some things in those early days of kind of figuring operations out, I guess, that, that really stuck with you?

Cameron Herold (02:35): Uh, something changed. So one under God junk was actually the third company that I’d helped scale. So I helped build void auto body and Gerber auto collision and then a private currency company prior to that. And then I’d been involved in another group called college pro painters, which was the world’s largest residential house painting company. So I actually joined wing hundred Gott junk as their COO when I was 35. So for me, for the first four years, it was actually a little bit like, you know, I already had the expertise. I knew what to do. Let’s just crank through this. What really started to hit me was two things. One when scale started to kick in, when we hit the, you know, 200 employees at the head office, 2000 employees system wide, it started to get complex and a little bit outside of my sandbox. And then secondly was the text. I started to appear where we started to leverage or talk about technology and automations and optimization. And that was, you know, 2004, 2005 was, I was realizing that it was no longer about working harder. It was about working smarter. And then it was also about optimizing and automation that we could, you know, really scale.

John Jantsch (03:38): So the role or the title, job title, COO, how would you define that now? Because it’s certainly changed dramatically, hasn’t

Cameron Herold (03:45): It it’s changed in a few ways. So 20 years ago to be the COO, you had to be a major player at a major company. And I think we’ve had title inflation now where, you know, you can have a 12 person company. Sure. And they’ve given everyone a C level title. So I think there’s been a little bit of title in inflation. The CEO is really the second in command to the CEO. They’re the person that should be running the business. If the CEO was sick for six months and couldn’t come in, they tend to be the one that has kind of a bit more multidisciplinary, um, subject matter expertise. They could probably run marketing, they could probably run ops. They could probably run chart. You know, they could probably run some areas of the business, but they don’t necessarily have the pure domain expertise to be a chief marketing officer or a chief technology officer in a similar size company. So they tend to have, you know, good operational chops, um, and very strong people skills. But yeah, I think there’s been title inflation. What used to be a director of ops or a VP of ops has often become as COO. And then you still have the Cheryl Sandberg who’s, you know, been COO of Facebook for 15 years with the same title. So just a little bit of confusion.

John Jantsch (04:49): Well, and I would say the other way around too, I think some larger organizations there’s been maybe title fragmentation . I mean, you’ve got people, chiefs, happiness, chiefs, revenue chiefs, you know, I mean, so where, you know, how does the COO or second in command orient themselves then in, in that world? Or are you saying that the fortune 500 companies still needs or maybe needs all of those positions? And the operations job is maybe more limited in a hundred person, 200 person organization, like who you were talking about at home office. The, the CEO really is running the company.

Cameron Herold (05:24): Yeah. If you look at, in any size organization, the COO and CEO are almost in the same box, it’s almost the yin and yang where those two coupled together are overseeing the entire arc of the operations. And then you’ll have titles, whether it be VPs or co C level that are running the independent, you know, business areas, whether you’ve got people or finance or it, and then there has been some of that, you know, movement, like, you know, the head of sales used to be a VP of sales, but they didn’t get a C level. So now it’s the chief revenue officer, right. Instead of the chief sales officer , but yeah, there’s pretty much running the functional areas. If you’re a, you know, if you’re a 10,000 person company or, or larger, you know, a true enterprise level, you probably like I was coaching the CEO and the second command at sprint for about a year and a half. I think they had 42 executives that were senior VP executive VP level. Right. So they, they had a very seasoned C-suite, um, you know, they had multiple division presidents and it’s, it’s just more about roles and responsibilities in org chart and clarity. That really needs to be clear when you get to that size.

John Jantsch (06:27): Well, and maybe to, to where I was really headed with this, maybe the second in command, um, is more descriptive of the job title than CEO. So I mean, how we know that. Yeah.

Cameron Herold (06:36): I didn’t, I said now for the last year or so, I started the COO Alliance six years ago and I said, if I was to retitle it, right, it would be more around the second in command than the COO cuz we have members from 17 countries that we’ve got president titles, VP ops titles, CTO, titles, but they’re truly the second in command to the CEO.

John Jantsch (06:55): Yeah. So, so in a maybe a smaller, more nimble organization that doesn’t have that giant C-suite what is the second in command? How, how would you describe the second in command’s role? I mean, uh, I know you, you know, you know, ver Harish and, and the EOS folks and that, that whole integrator, you know, approach. Yeah. I mean, is it really almost a point of view, more than a, a job title?

Cameron Herold (07:19): It’s funny. I was at a Verne har event about 14 years ago and I came off stage speaking and someone came up to me said, oh my gosh, you’re Cameron. And I said, yeah, he said, everyone’s been running around the conference saying, I need a Cameron. He said, I thought you were a saying, I thought you were like a BHAG or a vivid vision. I’m like, no, it’s just me. And he goes, well, everybody wants what Brian, when Gina Rickman wrote traction and then wrote rocket fuel with Mark Winters, they talked about the integrator. That tends to be the role title or their title for usually kind of the 10 to maybe 50 or 60 person company. And then you really need to get into the more mature titles where you you’re back into that real COO title. Again, they have slightly different thoughts around the, the role as being the tiebreaker where I would disagree on that. I think the CEO is the tiebreaker. I, I don’t think the CEO really defers the operational decision making to anyone in the organization. It, it really has to unfortunately stop with them.

John Jantsch (08:14): It, at that point, it’s, it’s really strategy more than pure execution. Isn’t it? Yeah. So, and, and maybe you can expand the range. I’m gonna give you a couple scenarios that, that I’m guessing that you run into because you work with people in all sizes, you know, coming and going um, what is that organization that comes to realization? I need a CEO. I mean, I’m sure you run into a lot of companies that are still founder driven, very good at selling and they’ve grown. So, so what does that organization need to be thinking about?

Cameron Herold (08:46): Well, and there’s a few different reasons why you may end up needing a COO or that second in command. One is that the roles and responsibilities that are on the entrepreneur or the CEO’s plate, or just too many, and they need to kind of divide and conquer. So they need that partner, right. Or maybe it’s that you’ve got a really key player in the organization that if you don’t handcuff them to the company, they’re gonna leave. So it’s a title. It’s like an MVP, it’s that title where you know that you’re gonna lock them up because of that, it may be a change in agent, right? It may be somebody who you just know intuitively like I’m a 60 year old CEO of a company. And now we’ve got technology coming in. I need a change agent to come in and take us from the way we always did it to an optimization and automation and remote workforce.

Cameron Herold (09:30): And we don’t have that skill internally. We need that expert to come in from the outside. They’re the change age. So there’s often a number of different types of roles that the COO can play. It may be somewhere where the CEO has built the company and now they want to step away a little bit and let someone run their business. So they have, you know, the reason we start companies in the first place is to give us cash, to give us free time or to say that we did it right. So once we’ve done it, once we got a enough cash coming in, how do we get more free time? It’s to let someone run our business for us? Yeah. So there’s often different reasons for that COO role. It’s confusing.

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John Jantsch (10:57): I’m guessing I’m gonna throw out the other scenario that you also have people that come to you and say, I have a CEO. Oh, but we’ve outgrown them. You know, or how do we level up

Cameron Herold (11:08): That was me. So, you know, 15 years ago, next week, my best friend, Brian, who was the CEO and founder of 1-800-GOT-JUNK. We were actually supposed to go for dinner tomorrow night, 15 years ago. He me aside on Thursday morning at the Vancouver club. And he said, I think we’re done. I, I think you’ve hit the end of your six and a half years. You’re not the guy to take us to a billion. I took him from 2 million to 106 million, but he was right. I was not the guy to go to the billion. And I was the sixth member of our sixth member leadership team to get replaced. You know, we replaced every other leader of the leadership team. I was the last one and they needed the next group of true seasoned leaders. So Brian replaced me 12 months later with the former president of Starbucks, us and Lonnie walked in and said, what a cute little company. And meanwhile, I’m pulling my hair up going, oh my God, it’s so big. And she’s like, this is cute. What a cute little business yeah. At some point the business can outpace the skillset or the yeah. Or really the life cycle of, of that person. For sure.

John Jantsch (12:07): Well, that’s interesting then is the simple answer. You replaced them with somebody or can you actually level that person up? Can they gain this? The, the skills You have to be there?

Cameron Herold (12:17): I’ve talked to a few people about this. So Ben HTZ and I have spoken about this, who wrote the book called the hard thing about hard things. And then clay mask, who is the founder of, of infusion saw he and I have spoken clay, and I have said that it really a, a senior leader can go through two doubles in the size of the company before it gets very hard for them to do the third double. Right? So let’s say that you go from 5 million to 10 from 10 to 20. It’s very hard for that leader to be running a 40 million company let alone 80. Well, we did six consecutive years of a hundred percent revenue growth. So I was clearly by that year six, I should have been replaced. And then the, in Horowitz said, it’s one triple that if you go from 10 million to 30, it’s hard to take it to 90.

Cameron Herold (12:58): Right? And I think you can level up, you can work with them on their situational leadership and their coaching and time management and project and EQ and all the skills. But the business is different. You know, when I was leaving, we had 13 operational businesses operating in four countries, 3,100 employees, systemwide 330 cities. It was just big. And I didn’t have the depth anymore to slow down, to consider cross-functional matrix decision making. Like I was hearing terms, I’m like, I don’t even know what these mean, let alone how to operate within them. And then, you know, that’s all

John Jantsch (13:34): I was gonna say. So is it simply a matter of somebody else has been there? and that’s what they bring to the table or is it a different skillset? Uh, different personality.

Cameron Herold (13:43): It’s a combination of both. I think it’s not only the person has been there it’s that the person has taken a company there. Mm. Cause really what Brian didn’t want was someone who had run a billion dollar company. He needed someone who had grown a hundred million company and made it bigger. And then he needed a new cultural fit that fit the size of the organization. So strangely that, that woman, he brought in didn’t work, he ended up getting rid of her, but he’s then replaced her with a friend of mine who I’ve known for 35 years. We co-founded a fraternity together in Ottawa in 1987. I was president the first year he was president the second year of that fraternity. Now he’s the COO. He, Eric, would’ve been a horrible COO in the first six years as I would’ve been horrible in his tenure, but he’s just done 10 years as COO and has taken the company to 450 million. He’s the perfect DNA for the size organization. It is now and a cultural culturally really strong of it with Brian. The trust is really strong.

John Jantsch (14:39): So I had culture written down. I mean, how much of, how much of the job is directing or forming or creating or nurturing the culture?

Cameron Herold (14:50): Oh, a lot of it, you know, I, I believe that the culture kind of permeates from within, so it starts with the C-suite, it starts with an obsession for core values and mm-hmm, obsession for vision. And, um, you know, really understanding that our people, our employees come first and our customers come second and really obsessing what employee engagement and then they’ll obsess about customer engagement. It’s really, it, it’s all those tenants that have to be kind of first and foremost, and then understanding that if you focus on that, the numbers come from there, you know, I think that’s where the truly great organizations almost build that cult-like environment while they’re obsessing about the, you know, the business processes and, you know, the, the KPI and the metrics and that kinda stuff as well.

John Jantsch (15:34): So you’ve talked about what it takes when we’re really growing that company, but for somebody that is out looking for COO role, or maybe looking to replace somebody, what, what, what do you see are some common mistakes, uh, that, that are that crop up

Cameron Herold (15:50): The most common one is that they assume, and I’m actually working on a book about the co relationship that’ll come out in about six months, but it’s the, the most common one is that they assume that if the person has had the role before they can come into my company and do the same role and they can’t because the company is very different, you know, not unlike having a spouse or a partner in a relationship if I’ve been married, just because that woman was my wife doesn’t mean she’d be a good wife for someone else, nor would I be a good husband for it, right. There needs to be a sync with core values and culture. And you know, if I love cooking, I probably want somebody who likes to clean. If I like somebody who, you know, you need to find the similarities and the commonality. And then also the fact that we don’t wanna get into each other’s lanes. So, you know, Brian did not need someone to run finance in it cuz he liked finance in it. Whereas I have members of the COO Alliance that two of their core areas that they run are finance in it. Right. So because their CEO doesn’t of those areas. So it’s very, it’s a misfit when they just assume, oh, they’ve been a COO, there’ll be a great one for me. Not necessarily.

John Jantsch (17:01): Well. So in some ways, are you saying a CEO should be looking for somebody that like for, in my case, I’m really, I’m not a system process finish line, kind of person, I’m a starting line, you know, think up the ideas kind of. So, so am I looking for somebody that’s going to shore up where I have weaknesses, so to speak?

Cameron Herold (17:22): Yeah. You’re looking for someone who’s your yin and yang, right? Who’s the match to like you’re Sarah is your second in command and, and correct. She is amazing at systems, amazing at process she’s very kind of inward facing and the organization. She didn’t even love being on my second command podcast because she doesn’t talk to the media much, whereas you’re always on stage and you’re the marketing person. And so she’s the yin to your yang, right? The trust is very high. The relationship is very strong. Those are all what you’re looking for.

John Jantsch (17:50): Yeah. Um, there seem to be a lot of organizations built around this idea of scale and helping people, you know, coaching people on that kind of growth. There’s not a whole lot of people that are doing, I think what you’re doing exactly. And that’s working with the second in command. So tell me a little bit about COO Alliance and, and you know, what somebody would expect if they, uh, came to look at that.

Cameron Herold (18:14): Yeah. You know, you, you mentioned I’ve been paid to speak on all seven continents. I’ve done a lot of work with entrepreneurial organizations around the world. So I’ve worked with Y P O in 10 countries. I’ve worked with the entrepreneurs organization in 26 countries. I’ve done large scale speaking events for Vista and 17 cities. And then there’s all these other groups for entrepreneurs like genius network and Maverick and baby bathwater and GoBundance and war room, amazing events. But those are all for the CEO and then there’s organizations for marketers and for lawyers and for dentists and doc, but there was never an organization for the second command. And I really wanted a place where the CEOs could go and spend two full days talking about interviewing and hiring and onboarding of people. Whereas if you put, you know, a hundred entrepreneurs in a room, they can only talk about recruiting for 10 minutes before they need to switch subjects. So we need, we needed a place for them to geek out on the stuff that’s more COO like, and as the whole impetus, we’re starting it. Do

John Jantsch (19:12): You feel like you are actually shaping the role as it exists today by doing obviously you, you have a fairly large reach. I know you’re, there are lots, the world is a big place, but do you feel like you’re giving some modern shape to the role in general?

Cameron Herold (19:27): I’d never thought about that. I guess I would like to now that you, you, I, I think that Gina WMAN and Mark Winters have done a really good job with getting the integr or the integrator brand for traction, and they’ve done a good job with shaping it at the smaller level. I think Nathan Benton, Steven Miles have done a really good job in their book. Um, writing shotgun and an article they wrote for Harvard years ago about the role the COO. But yeah, I think there’s been a gap in having a community for second in commands. And I don’t want to be their thought leader. You know, if, if we had a spokesperson for COOs, it should be Cheryl Sandberg, not Cameron herd. I just want to create an organization where they can learn from each other and be with each other. And so I, I guess, yeah, it would be cool if we could.

John Jantsch (20:11): So, so tell us a little bit of just about all the ways that people can engage, you know, your organization, cuz I mean it’s everything down to a self-study uh, program all the way through some high level coaching, right?

Cameron Herold (20:22): Yeah. So the invest in your leaders course is the self-study program. It’s the 12 core leadership skills that all managers and leaders need to get better at. So it’s called invest in your leaders. The C O Alliance is the clear one we’ve been talking about. We’ve got members from 17 countries. You need to do at least 5 million in revenue just to qualify. And then you have to be the second in command of the CEO. And that’s 12 events, uh, every year online and we do two in-person events a year as well. And then we have the second in command podcast and that’s just one that everybody should listen to where we never interview the entrepreneur. We only interview the second in command. Right? So I, I love you. I think your work’s amazing, but we could never have you as a guest, but Sarah, your second in command was a great guest.

John Jantsch (21:01): Awesome. Well, she enjoyed being on the show and I’ve great have, have gotten great feedback because you do have a, a large audience of pretty focused folks that listen to it. Well, Cameron, it was great having you on this show. I can’t believe it took this long, but I appreciate you stopping by and I do you wanna send anybody? I know we’ve been talking in generalities, but do you wanna send anybody to a website or anything that uh, they can learn more?

Cameron Herold (21:24): Yeah. If they go to COO alliance.com, they’ll find it everything. And then all five of my books are available on Amazon, audible and iTunes. Thank you. I just wanted to be there for your audience.

John Jantsch (21:32): Oh, well I appreciate it. And uh, hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Cameron Herold (21:37): Thanks John. Appreciate it.

John Jantsch (21:38): Hey, and one final thing before you go, you know how I talk about marketing strategy strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you in, in that, what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the marketing strategy assessment. You can find it @ marketingassessment.co not.com.co check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with strategy today. That’s just marketingassessment.co I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network.

HubSpot Podcast Network is the audio destination for business professionals who seek the best education and inspiration on how to grow a business.

 

 

3 Steps For Creating The Perfect Recruitment Strategy

3 Steps For Creating The Perfect Recruitment Strategy written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

john-jantschIn this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I’m doing a solo show where I’m covering a topic that is very high on a lot of business owners’ minds and that’s the idea of recruitment and retention of your internal customers — your employees.

Key Takeaway:

Recruitment and retention are big topics in the minds of business owners today. And I think these problems can be solved with a marketing solution. How people choose to become customers has changed, and we need to be thinking about acquiring employees and customers in a much different way than the funnel approach. In this episode, I talk about how we need to start rethinking the employee recruitment journey and the steps to take to create the perfect recruitment strategy.

Topics I discuss:

  • [0:53] Why recruitment and retention is a big topic on the minds of business owners today
  • [1:29] Why I think it can be solved with a marketing solution
  • [2:01] We just launched a unique, new marketing assessment
  • [2:54] Growth comes from being important in the lives of your customers and your employees during tough times
  • [3:49] Why we need to be thinking about acquiring employees and customers in a much different way than the vending machine or the funnel approach
  • [6:38] Three steps for creating the perfect recruitment strategy
  • [8:00] The four questions to ask your employee
  • [11:52] Thinking about recruitment as an end to end customer journey
  • [12:09] How people choose to become customers and employees has changed
  • [12:36] Thinking about the marketing hourglass as we apply it to the employee journey
  • [13:48] Branding your organization as a great place to work is a killer marketing message
  • [16:01] Keeping your employees is a far better way to grow, not just your team, but your organization
  • [17:11] People don’t change jobs they changed the bosses

Resources I mentioned:

More About Duct Tape Marketing Consultant Network:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the salesman podcast, hosted by will Barron and brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. Look, if you work in sales, wanna learn how to sell, and frankly who doesn’t check out the salesman podcast, where host will Barron helps sales professionals learn how to find buyers and win big business ineffective and ethical ways. And if you wanna start someplace, I recommend the four step process to influencing buying decisions. Listen to the salesman podcast, wherever you get your podcast.

John Jantsch (00:44): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch, and I’m gonna do a solo show today. It’s actually been a while, but I wanna cover a topic that is very high on a lot of business owners’ minds. And that’s the idea of retention of internal team members, internal customers, whatever you wanna call them, employees, staff, team members. This has been a really hot topic of the last year, and I think it’s not going away. There’s a lot of pressure for a lot of reasons on this. So I wanna talk about it as the subject that it is, obviously it turns into production issue or fulfillment or capacity issue for a lot of organizations, but it’s really a marketing problem, or at least can be solved I think, with a marketing solution. So that’s what I’m going to present.

John Jantsch (01:34): Hey, I also wanted to let you know that I have been working very hard on a unique marketing strategy assessment. A lot of people have these, uh, marketing assessments out there that that really are just measuring your tactic approach. What you’re using, what you’re doing. I’ve created something that really is heart and soul to the idea of strategy before tactics marketing as a system. And I’d love for you to check it out. Uh, the URL is marketingassessment.co. So it’s marketing assessment.co go on over there and, uh, check it out to go through. It takes about, I don’t know, five minutes to answer the 20 questions and, and the report that you get at the end of it, frankly, is, is enough gold to, to have you actually, uh, improve or find area of for improvement in your, in your marketing strategy. So, uh, check it out, marketing assessment dot C.

John Jantsch (02:29): All right. So let’s talk today about rethinking the recruitment journey. You know, one of the things that I think that certainly I’ve said this many times to anyone that will listen, one of the things that I think the pandemic and, and a great deal of what went on with the, the, the chaos of the last couple years is that, you know, a lot of businesses do pretty well in good times just by being in the right place at the right time. A lot of businesses during the pandemic learn that, but boy, in tough times, growth comes from being important in the lives of your customers and your employees. And it’s a constant, uh, battle. It’s constant shifting there’s the leverage changes, you know, so to today we work with a lot of folks that are saying, Hey, I don’t need more customers. I need more people.

John Jantsch (03:12): So the leverages in many cases is, has gone squarely to the employee. And I think that changing dynamic, I think does have a tendency to allow people or, or to get people in the habit of thinking, oh, this is just a vending machine approach, need more customers, put some money in run, some ads, run a funnel and create more customers, oh, need more employees just go run. Some ads, go to the job boards, put in some and voila pops up some new employees. And I, I wanna share, I’m gonna rifle through. ’em pretty quickly a few statistics that should shed some light on how we have to be thinking about this in a much different way than the vending machine or the funnel approach. Apparently less than 15% of the, of every job that’s advertised on those job boards, you know, monster indeed, et cetera, gets filled by candidates who actually apply through the job board.

John Jantsch (04:07): So we’re spending a whole bunch of money there, and it’s not really producing the results. 50% of candidates say they wouldn’t work for a company with a bad reputation, even for a pay increase S true of customers coming to us. Why wouldn’t it be true? Of course of employees as well, 79% of candidates use social media in their job search. We have to be where they are. That’s, that’s true. Again for customers as certainly as much as it is for staff. 92% of consumers will visit a brand’s website a first time for reasons other than making a purchase, guess who is visiting your website for reasons other than making a purchase people you might hire, or you might wanna hire 71% of employees say that they would accept a pay cut for a better working experience. A flip side of that is I know I’ve paid more or a product or a service when I got, or was expecting to get a better experience.

John Jantsch (05:05): I think it’s just the flip side of that exact same thing. 89% of employers think employees leave for more money. That’s why everybody defaults to more money. That’s why everybody defaults to lowering their prices when, uh, they’re trying to attract new customers. It, again, it’s the flip side of the exact same thing, but according to a very large gala poll, only 12% of employees actually leave for money. And I think the thing that, the point that I’m really trying to drive home here, in fact, if you’re really in a hurry, just take note of this idea and, and you’ll have the essence of where I’m gonna go with this, uh, today. People really aren’t candidates or consumers. They’re both, there’s no distinction. I mean, people are just people. So the vending machine approach of let’s put money in and get more customers, put money in, get more employees, lower prices, you know, advertise bonuses, you know, for getting employees.

John Jantsch (06:05): I mean that, that approach will draw some people, I suppose to you, but you know, people who come to you for a price increase or price decrease, or employees that come to you because they get a dollar, two more, an hour are gonna leave for the exact same reason. So when I talk about the customer journey and the employee journey, or how somebody, uh, comes to, to join an organization, it, it it’s really in a lot of ways, it’s not even a marketing issue. It, it is a strategy issue that I think can be solved with of the marketing approach. So here’s the three steps for creating the perfect recruitment strategy. First one is to know who you’re trying to recruit. And I know everybody says that, but what people forget to say is that you probably already have some ideal employees in your organization.

John Jantsch (06:51): Just like I talk about narrowing your focus to the top 20% of your customers, look at your team. You can do the same thing. What is it about your highest performing, uh, folks, the people that thrive in your organization? What is it about them that you need to understand? What behavior, what characteristics, what objectives, what problem can you promise to solve as an organization? That’s always been true from a, an attraction standpoint for a, a differentiator for your customers is going to be true, certainly for employees. So how can you create an end to end customer journey? Think in terms of employee recruitment pipeline, it’s something that doesn’t, it isn’t meant to be an event. Oh, I have a position to fill. We need to do X that’s. What gets people in, in the mindset of, oh, I have to offer more money. That’s the only way to get more people or I have to spend more money on the job boards.

John Jantsch (07:45): That’s the only way to get more people. It has to be something that becomes part of the DNA of, of all of your marketing. So look to your current employees and I’m gonna give you four questions and you might come back to this, uh, part of the recording. I’m gonna give you four questions. If you need to write these down to, to try to either think about, or even even ask your employees sometimes asking is tough because it’s the boss ask asking. And it’s like, is my answer really gonna ? Is it gonna be used for good or bad? But here, your question to ponder, what does their current work life situation look like? You’ll find that they probably have certain goals or in a certain point in their life that they, you know, have certain values. Now that doesn’t, I, this is not an appeal to say everybody in your organization needs to think and look alike.

John Jantsch (08:35): It’s just that there are gonna be certain situations that I think might be keys or might be signals to, you know, what you’re looking for, or, or at least what you start promoting. If you find that many, uh, folks in your organization enjoy a certain type of work or a certain type of environment, they Excel in, then you wanna start talking about that. That that’s what we do here. All right. Second question. What do they enjoy? What frustrates them in what work environment do they Excel? Number three, and number four, what factors were involved in them making a decision to come to your organization? If you could start to understand doesn’t mean you have to have all the answers, but if you can start to at least think about the answers to those questions, you’re gonna have a better idea of the message you need to take out there to the world and start talking about why your place is a great place to work.

John Jantsch (09:25): And speaking of that, one of the greatest marketing messages, this is to attract customers is to talk about your people is talk about how exceptional your place is to be an employee. In fact, we’ve actually moved many of the marketing messages to be, you know, for example, a remodeling contractor, our people make your remodeling experience exceptional. That is a very positive, attractive message for the people that want to remodel their kitchen, because maybe they’ve were worked with not such so exceptional people, but it’s also a great message for the potential employee. You’re leading, talking about the fact that your people are exceptional. Hey, I wanna work there now. Also, don’t forget. As I reminded you many times, don’t forget about Google reviews. If you’re getting some amount of Google reviews, pour over those word for word first off, what you’re probably going to see is that if your people are truly exceptional, your customers are going to be noting that they’re going to be actually naming them by name.

John Jantsch (10:29): In fact, they might not even name your company, but they might name somebody who works at your company. So start understanding what they about your people, about the experience that they’re having. Those are some real cues to what maybe you ought to be saying. The promise that you ought to start making, uh, to, to demonstrate that you can deliver a better experience. You know, customers don’t actually change comp I mean companies, I mean, I don’t think we want to jump around and say, well, that didn’t work outs, or maybe it did work out, but I’m gonna go look for a new one. Uh, I think we want to stay with companies. And so we don’t really leave them. We leave the experience that we’re having with them. And now let’s hear from our sponsor. Look, if you’re tired of slowing down your teams with clunky software processes and marketing that is difficult to scale, HubSpot is here to help you and, and your business grow better with collaboration tools and built in SEO optimizations.

John Jantsch (11:23): A HubSpot CRM platform is tailor made to help you scale your marketing with ease, integrated calendars, tasks, and commenting, help hybrid teams stay connected while automated SEO recommendations, intuitively optimize your webpage content for increased organic traffic ditch, the difficult and dial up your marketing with tools that are easy to use and easy to scale learn how your business can grow better @ hubspot.com.

John Jantsch (11:52): are the third component of this strategy idea is that is, is to think about this end to end journey. You know, a lot of handing these days about all the things that have changed in, in, in marketing and in business. But, you know, I think the thing that doesn’t get talked about enough, the thing that’s changed the most is how P people choose to become customers and employees. They have so many options today and how they decide on the company that they’re going to, to hire is, is all about the research that they do.

John Jantsch (12:24): And they go out there and, and in a lot of ways are making a decision, you know, before we even know that they’re looking at our organization and this, this is certainly true of some be coming to be hired as, as an employee. So we have to think about the marketing hourglass as we apply it to the employee journey. And so, uh, as a reminder, I know I talk about this all the time, but the marketing hourglass for us is, has seven stages. They are no like trust, try by repeat and refer. And so what I’m asking you to consider is what is, what are you doing to intentionally guide somebody to come to know about you and, and start to think, Hey, this is a place I might wanna work, but then as they start to dig in, you know, what message are they seeing as in terms of a story, are, are they connecting with your values?

John Jantsch (13:10): Who do they meet first? Is it easy to find out more information? If for me, how often people will have a, Hey, come, you know, we’re hiring and then you click on a button. And before you ever find anything out about the company, you have a, a five and a half page application to fill out. That’s like going from, Hey, you know about us now, I wanna buy you wanna buy and, you know, skipping the steps of trust, building that, that really make you, you, the obvious choice, obviously reviews, employee stories, your values and actions mentions in the media. Those are all things that are part of the employee journey today. And in fact, as I started to say, I think the, the beauty of this idea of branding your organization is a great place to work is it’s a killer marketing message. I mean, how could that possibly be a, for anybody who wants to hire you or, or buy your products and services?

John Jantsch (13:59): So promoting, uh, part of your content strategy ought to be in fact, a huge part of your content strategy ought to be, to promote things that your employees, your team members are doing, how they’re advancing, the fun that you’re having at your organization. I mean, these are things that go in many cases in the early part of the journey, they go a lot farther than the benefits that I’m gonna actually receive, because I think people, uh, more and more are, are leaving organizations maybe even for pay cuts or, or certainly not staying at organizations because the 401k is the bonus is great. If the environment is not great, if the experience of being an employee there is not great, then none of that really matters. So then if we slip over to the try and buy and, and obviously substitute higher for buy, if you like, , it’s not a real stretch in my mind.

John Jantsch (14:53): So the try process, what, what is that application process look like? The phone screening, you have so many, and again, what happens is a lot of organizations don’t have an HR department, don’t have a professional who’s charged with the hiring experience. It’s the manager or the VP of something that actually has another job, and this is just something they are doing. And so the follow up and the experience, and, you know, once they come on board, the onboarding, the who, who their manager is, you know, how they interact with current employees. I mean, all of that, their training plan that’s laid up. The statistics are pretty crazy about when people leave organizations within the first night days. It’s because there was, there was no onboarding. It’s true of customers. You know, you’ve heard me talk about Joey. Coleman’s great book, how to keep, I can’t remember now the title, but how to keep an employee no, how to keep a customer for life.

John Jantsch (15:43): Although he is actually working on the employee one too, he tells me, but the idea behind it is make the first 90 to a hundred days an amazing experie. And you will not have the turnover that many organizations, uh, experience today. And speaking of that, you know, just like keeping customers is, is a far better way to grow a business. Keeping your employees is a far better way to grow, not just your team, but your organization. You know, the number one, uh, reason people are citing now for leaving organizations is a lack of respect, a, of a growth path or any kind of personal development. I mean, pay and benefits certainly shows up on the list, but it’s way down from things like respect and, and personal development. And then finally refer, I work with a lot of organizations that have happy, happy employees and happy customers.

John Jantsch (16:30): And, and we always scratch our heads say, well, why aren’t they referring us? And most of the time, it just comes down to the process. The, you know, it’s almost with, with employees, a lot of organizations almost treat it like, uh, you know, an expectation, a part of the job, you know, they offer a bonus. So it just becomes part of the pay. But the biggest reason people don’t make recommendations or referrals, both as customers. And it lawyers is they don’t understand or worse don’t trust the process. Maybe the hiring process for them was kind of wonky. Hey, they like being there now. but the, uh, the process itself was a little bit stressful. Do they wanna put their friend or, or neighbor, you know, through that kind of thing. And last thing about retention people don’t change jobs. I mean, they change about, so the, again, a lot of it has to do with the experience that they’re having, you know, maybe with the person they’re directly reporting to, and not necessarily with the organization, I’ve been running recruiting ads, a skilled labor positions for a number of years, and we test different headlines in different approaches.

John Jantsch (17:32): And the number one recruiting a for the past two years simply just says, respect with a question, mark, you know, do you feel like a respected member, uh, of a team in your current, uh, position? And it beats everything else. We try, you know, time and time again, because that is the, that is what’s missing for a lot of people in the, uh, positions. And I don’t care what type of job it is. I think that’s, uh, the piece that’s really missing. So think in terms of this idea of the marketing hourglass and, and applying that journey to the recruiting process, intentionally helping move people through the stages of no, like trust, try higher retained and refer. All right, that’s it for me today. Um, again, I wanted to remind you to check out the new assessment that, uh, I built it is a marketing strategy assessment.

John Jantsch (18:24): You can find it @ marketingassessment.co – not.com – marketingassessment.co. All right. Take care.

John Jantsch (18:32): All right. So that wraps up another episode. I wanna thank you so much for tuning in and, you know, we love those reviews and comments. And just generally tell me what you think also did you know that you could offer the duct tape marketing system, our system to your clients, and build a complete marketing consulting coaching business, or maybe level up an agency with some additional services. That’s right. Check out the duct tape marketing consultant network. You can find it at ducttapemarketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that offer our system to your clients tab.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network.

HubSpot Podcast Network is the audio destination for business professionals who seek the best education and inspiration on how to grow a business.

 

 

Fueling Your Growth With Facebook Groups And Communities

Fueling Your Growth With Facebook Groups And Communities written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Marketing Podcast with John Cantarella

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview John Cantarella. John is the VP of Community & Impact Partnerships at Facebook. Prior to joining Facebook, he was the president of Digital, News, Business, and Sports Properties at Time Inc. where he oversaw TIME.com, CNNMoney.com, Fortune.com, SI.com, and Golf.com. John also spent several years at The New York Times Company at NYTimes.com running strategy, marketing, and operations.  He was part of the management team that was instrumental in launching NYTimes.com’s first digital paid product and the acquisition of About.com.

Key Takeaway:

Building a community creates a space to engage with clients, advise potential clients, and help people who want support, encouragement, and a place to share and connect. If you’re a brand, business, coach, consultant, course creator, author, expert, or speaker, cultivating a community of raving fans will get you results and impact your bottom line.

In this episode, I talk with the VP of Community & Impact Partnerships at Facebook, John Cantarella, about how to leverage Facebook for businesses of all kinds to build groups, communities, and raving fans to fuel your growth.

Questions I ask John Cantarella:

  • [2:19] How has the business use of Facebook evolved from those early days to where we are today?
  • [4:15] How complex has Facebook become since the early days?
  • [5:40] Why do you think Facebook has such a hold on businesses for creating groups and communities when there are other tools where you can do the same kind of thing?
  • [7:58] What are some other places along the customer journey that you think groups or communities fit that maybe people aren’t thinking of?
  • [12:31] What are the best practices to really stimulate, grow and keep a very engaged community?
  • [14:55] Say I build this 80,000-person community with great tools and a great community, but I don’t really own it, and it’s on somebody else’s platform — how do you address that?
  • [16:44] I have a lot of listeners who own traditional local businesses, so they have real geographic constraints just by nature of the model of their business. Are there ways that you’ve seen local businesses use this in a way that might effectively drive revenue?
  • [19:23] What’s next for businesses on Facebook?
  • [22:24] Retention and recruitment have become really hot right now for a lot of organizations – what role can community play?
  • [24:13] What resources do you want to share with listeners?

More About John Cantarella:

More About Duct Tape Marketing Consultant Network:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the salesman podcast, hosted by will Barron and brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. Look, if you work in sales, wanna learn how to sell, and frankly who doesn’t check out the salesman podcast, where host will Barron helps sales professionals learn how to find buyers and win big business ineffective and ethical ways. And if you wanna start someplace, I recommend the four step process to influencing buying decisions. Listen to the salesman podcast, wherever you get your podcast.

John Jantsch (00:44): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is John Cantarella. He’s a VP of community and impact partnerships at Facebook prior to joining Facebook, he was the president of digital of the news business and sports properties at time, Inc, where we are versa saw time.com, CNN money.com, fortune.com, si.com and golf.com. He also spent a number of years at the New York times company at NYT, I guess it’s NY times dot com, running strategy, marketing, and operations. He was a part of the management team instrumental in launching NY times dot coms, first paid product and the acquisition of about.com. So John, welcome to the show,

John Cantarella (01:30): John, thanks so much for having me just hearing that a while it goes back a bunch of years too, but I really appreciate you having me, uh, on, on your podcast.

John Jantsch (01:38): You, you bet about.com is really a blast from the past. You actually, of course, people are listening to this. You don’t look old enough for, to have, uh, been involved in that they, the about.com. There was a, a guide. I think that’s what they called them in my community. That was, you know, interviewed me a number of times. So about, this was like around 2000 ish, I think, or something like that. But

John Cantarella (02:00): You probably remember it was called the mining company before it was about.com and it was kind of an early community platform, you know, with those guys who are really building it.

John Jantsch (02:08): Yeah. Very early on. And it it’s kind of been absorbed into something else now hasn’t it?

John Cantarella (02:13): It has, I think the New York times ended up selling it to, to Barry DI’s company interactive core, I think.

John Jantsch (02:20): Yeah. Yeah. All right. So let’s go. Not quite that far back, uh, but let’s start at about 2008, which was probably the date that Facebook really became a business tool or started the journey becoming a business tools. So could you give us a quick, in your view, you know, how business use of Facebook has evolved kind of from those early days to where we are today?

John Cantarella (02:43): Yeah, I know it’s a really interesting question. You know, what I, I wasn’t around in 2008, but you know, early days, I mean, you know, Facebook was really an effective, you know, marketing platform, particularly in the early days, really focused much more on, you know, customer acquisition, which is still obviously a large part yeah. Of our business, but because it was one of the early platforms to allow, you know, self-serve, it really built, you know, a huge ecosystem of small businesses. Yeah. And, and, and, and it helps scale the platform really quickly. I think, you know, this company has gone through so many transformation. I mean, you think back in 2008, you think about early advertising and banner ads. And, you know, I could remember, I remember all the different formats, but, you know, in those days, Facebook really pioneered, you know, and didn’t use traditional ad formats like the, you know, 300 by two 50 and, and really started, you know, you know, running ads and feed, and then obvious, you know, mobile happened, the company transformed and pivoted very quickly towards mobile. And I think you’ve seen that we’ve innovated on, on formats over the years from, you know, feed ads to ads in stories. And, you know, and now you’re starting to see, you know, ads and things like reals. I, I think that the thing that’s, you know, what we hear a overall is that I think about it in terms of economic opportunity. When I think about the millions of small businesses that use Facebook and, you know, it’s an incredible platform to drive people, to, you know, take action for your business.

John Jantsch (04:15): So going back to my early use and it, I mean, it was such a great place in the early days to get exposure for your content, because again, the way the feed was first off, it wasn’t as, as busy, but also the way the feed was as you, anybody who followed you saw your stuff. And, and obviously as it became so many more users and so many more, so much more functionality, you know, adding Instagram now and, and other purchases it’s really in a lot of ways is it’s become much more complex. Hasn’t it?

John Cantarella (04:44): I think it is complex from a, from a, you know, you have to be somewhat skilled in knowing how to reach an audience. And I think that’s why we have a large ecosystem of partners that, that help you. But, you know, if you’re a small business, you know, you can’t necessarily hire a third party. I think where they’ve innovated really well is, you know, to your earlier point, you know, obviously we have Facebook, we have Instagram, there’s WhatsApp, and, you know, you know, within, within quest, you know, you can run an ad and there’s so many tools in business manager that allow you to place an ad that it’ll optimize for you. It up, you know, you can put some basic things in there and the, and that system will take care of the rest for you, like continually optimize the audience across platforms. So really trying to simplify it that said, you know, if you’re a sophisticated organization, you know, you could really be very specific in who you’re trying to target.

John Jantsch (05:40): So a lot of small business owners certainly use the ad, you know, functionality and dependent upon types of businesses have done really well. I’ve also seen, uh, a lot of small businesses in a non-paid environment, the groups that, you know, creating communities for various reasons. So

John Jantsch (05:56): Why do you think, I mean, there are a lot of tools now that you can create groups and communities. I mean, HEC slack, you know, this is one that a lot of people will attempt to do that. Why do you feel like Facebook, uh, has such a hold on? I mean, obviously part of it’s just sheer numbers. There’s so many people on Facebook already, but it, it feels to me like, you know, the group functionality at FA on, on the Facebook platform is, feels far superior to a lot of other, you know, options out there of kind of doing it on your own.

John Cantarella (06:23): You know, it’s a, it’s a great point. I would say, fundamentally, you know, we talk about product market fit. The product works incredibly well. And we have an unbelievable product team who, you know, over the last year is literally launching new features based on what the community’s telling, what they need on a weekly and monthly basis to really ensure that people can manage and grow their community or their groups. I mean, to your point, like, so we call them groups, but to be honest, you know, fundamentally our mission as a company is to give people the power, to build community, to bring people closer together. And, and Mike to team specifically works with people that build communities. So we know there are over 70 million people, um, that are managing groups. There are over 1.8 billion people, monthly in groups. And, you know, with that’s your scale, you know, these are ordinary people doing extraordinary things.

John Cantarella (07:13): And we like to think about them as communities. And, you know, you wrote about this in one of your books. You know, a lot, lot of these folks are purpose driven. And there are a collection of people that receive a sense of belonging through the connection, and frankly, a feeling of safety and trust that they invest in over time. And when we see small businesses or even larger businesses use, uh, Facebook groups, we see it because they’re driven by a purpose and, and something they want, um, they’re consumers to have around a short interest or a goal or an attitude. You know, they’re not looking them as just a as capital, right. They’re looking at it for purpose.

John Jantsch (07:49): So I think a lot of people get the idea of, of say putting clients or members or, you know, whatever we wanna call them into a group. I mean, that’s quite obvious what are some other place along the customer journey that you think groups or communities fit that maybe people aren’t thinking of?

John Cantarella (08:06): So the, the thing that we’re seeing you think there’s a stat out there that 80% of small businesses have used digital tools in the past month, you know, for advertising and communication. And overall, you know, you know this, and you’ve been doing this for years and consulting for companies. I, I think gone are the days when one way communication is gonna work. You can’t speak at your audience anymore. And so, you know, what we’re seeing is, is that companies that are purpose driven, small business that are purpose driven, you know, are finding real value when they’re building a group. Right? So they’re looking at for multiple things. So, you know, we call it and I, I have to give all credit to a woman. My name milita tub was an early investor in communities and started the community fund. You know, she calls it C C ROI community return on investment.

John Cantarella (08:55): And when we think about that, there, there are three things that we’re seeing, small businesses and businesses get out of community. One is, you know, potentially revenue. There’s a real lifetime value when people are, are in your group, because they’re your best customers. Secondly, you know, from an operational standpoint, you know, it could be a customer support tool where your community, it’s making your operations easier because people are talking to each other to help solve problems. And, and that third piece is really the insights piece. You know, we’re seeing multiple companies use it for product development and they’re, they’re using what they’re hearing in their communities to make their product better and have a, a continuous conversation with, with a customer. And there’s so many great examples of that.

John Jantsch (09:40): Well, and I, I think you missed one that I’m seeing a lot of is peop it’s actually become a top of the funnel, you know, tool for a lot of people where they’re building these free communities, where people get a taste of what it’s like to be in that community, or to be coached by that person or whatever is before they really even go into the true sort of sales funnel.

John Cantarella (10:00): It it’s a great point. And we, we hear this from a lot of small businesses. I have an example. There is a founder called Priscilla side. She started a, a beauty company called Coco kind. And, you know, it was all started out of a need. She really wanted to have a clean, deep brand. She felt a lot of the beauty brands out there weren’t aspirational for her because she suffered from, you know, pretty bad skin. And she, you know, didn’t relate to a lot of what she was seeing out there. So she started this beauty company called Coco kind. And as she started this company, she started to interact through Instagram and direct message with customers to really understand, like, what formulas do they like? What, what is the packaging, what the colors that they like really finding that they’re educated consumers. And then as her community on Instagram grew larger, she started to do polls that you get things like she gets things like 30,000 responses from her community through this, what she calls her Coco kind lab. And then she also started a Facebook group called skin positivity because, you know, these folks really love the products that she produces, but they also wanna connect with others around, you know, tips and tricks and to support each other. And to your point, you know, this becomes an organic top of funnel, as opposed to, you know, if you, if she doesn’t remain true to permission of skin positivity, you know, people can see right through that.

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John Jantsch (12:09): Yeah. So you really hit on kind of where I was gonna gonna go next. You know, are there some, I, I hate the term best practice. It implies that there’s no better practices, but are there some best practices to really stimulate and grow and, and keep this very engaged community? Cuz you know, I see all kinds of people I get invited to ’em all the time, these groups that you go there and it’s like a ghost town, you know, so what are some, if somebody’s really one to do this, what do they have to, what what’s their investment gonna be?

John Cantarella (12:37): It’s a really important point. And it’s an important point because you know, everyone, not everyone, but, but most companies have someone who’s their marketer and they have someone who’s their social media manager, community management is none of those. Yeah. And you know, we’ve seen cases of large companies starting communities and then quickly losing control of it because they don’t have a clear mission of what they’re doing. And you know, we’ve spent a lot of time to make sure that our ecosystem of community builders really have the resources that they need. So first of all, we have everything from a community management certification program to a playbook for small business or any business to really figure out how to get started to use, you know, Facebook groups and also just figure out like what community platform works best for you. So I think number one, we’d like to say why like identify what your community objective is, right?

John Cantarella (13:29): You know, it, it, your community objectives should number one, be I just want more customers. Right? And then once, you know, oh, your why it’s really, how do I list the right person to, to manage that community and then really develop a strategy to support your desired outcomes. And then once you’re there, then you start to build the guiding principles and you start to engage the community. And what you see is, you know, these communities start to grow pretty pretty quickly. Uh, and I’ll give you an example. One of our, our partners is, is a young woman called DEHA Kennedy. She started a community called broke black girl. And, and her mission was really to provide culturally relevant financial information to African American women. I mean, she, I love it. She called herself at a five financial activist, right? And so she started this community to help women save money and it quickly became 80,000 people wrong.

John Cantarella (14:17): And you know, she was a community first leader because of an issue she was having to really find better financial, um, literacy and information to manage finances from that, she started getting people in our community, asking her to consult for them. And it’s gotten to the point now where Dasia could no longer do one-to-one consultation. So she started to build old small business where she’s offering seminars, she’s offering templates. And it’s your point? It’s, you know, she’s like, look, I can’t look at them as capital. I look at them as people and I’m providing value and if they want to migrate to my website and buy one of my courses great. But I, you know, it is topless funnel for her, but it’s organic.

John Jantsch (14:55): So you touched just briefly, maybe unintentionally on a another point that I know, uh, sometimes comes up. So I build this 80,000 person community, great tools, great community, but I don’t really, oh it, um, it’s on somebody else’s platform. I’m sure you hear that all the time. What, you know, how do you address that? Sometimes very real concern.

John Cantarella (15:21): So I, I like to think of it in terms of, we are nothing without these individuals. And what I’ve found is both when I speak with small businesses and I work with these community builders, they are enormously grateful for the impact that they are able to make, right. With the tools that we provide them. And so, you know, we manage multiple, I mean, I would say not multiple thousands of community builders who are some of the most engaged on that platforms. And we spend a lot of time with them getting their feedback and, you know, and putting them in front of our product leadership to make sure that we can build all the tools that they want. And, you know, we call it our top pain points or people problems, you know, what are the product enhancements that we need to build to support them on the flip side, you know, our team is very focused programmatically to capacity, build individual to make sure, you know, when these communities grown in a certain size, they immediately see that it becomes a challenge. So we wanna make sure how can we make your community sustainable by launching monetization products? How can we support you in your leadership journey? Cuz you need to build a team to support the work that you’re doing. And so if you look at the tools over the last year that we’ve launched, they’ve really been in response to these individuals, being able to, you know, feel more ownership over their communities. Overall,

John Jantsch (16:44): I know on my show, there’s a lot of businesses that are, are traditional local businesses. You know, how would they go about looking at this cuz because obviously they have real geographic constraints just by nature of the model of their business. And obviously social media has oh, geographic constraints. So, you know, what are there ways that, that you’ve seen local businesses use this? Not, not just to build numbers, but to do something that might effectively, uh, drive revenue.

John Cantarella (17:13): I have, I mean, here’s the thing, you know, I just saw the sta this week, it was in the New York times, which is really frankly upsetting and frightening is that with more companies settling into permanent hybrid work from home in New York city, specifically the average office worker is predicted to reduce their annual spending by nearly $6,700 pre pandemic. They were almost $14,000 around their office areas. And if you go down the list, that’s a New York city with, you know, largest metropolitan area in, in the us, you know, Los Angeles and San Francisco. It’s a $5,000, um, reduction in spend that is terrifying. And the thing that I think is so important for small businesses and this is at the local level, right? Most people, you know, think about small businesses at the local level. You know, during the pandemic, we launched multiple things to support small businesses, not only grants for them, as well as you know, in, in communities, but even on Instagram, you could, you can still launch a sticker today that is, is linking to your local small businesses to make sure that, that you can support them locally.

John Cantarella (18:17): So, so local is fundamentally, you know, when I think about community, that’s what I think about. Secondly, I say is that it’s so important for small businesses to have the digital for front door and a digital front door is not only a social media presence, but also, you know, the people that off by your store every single day, they are your community. And sometimes small businesses don’t realize that. And so I would always encourage these small businesses to really engage with their customers. And you know, this is the beauty, I mean, community has redefined itself. We always think about community in real life. And so, you know, now it’s both, how do you make sure you can bridge the people that walk by your store every day with this digital front door to make sure they can connect with you? Right. So my local restaurant of the street noodle pudding here in Brooklyn, New York, you know, I follow my Instagram. I would love for them to have a I’d love for them to have a group. You know, they post their menu every single I wanna support them. So it’s really important for these small businesses to put that digital shingle out there in as many ways as possible.

John Jantsch (19:20): So this is a big question. I don’t know if we can end up on this or not just give us a glimpse of what’s maybe next for businesses on Facebook, but obviously community as well.

John Cantarella (19:29): So I think there are multiple things and I, I think, yeah, you are an early evangels of evangels to this, from what I can tell, you know, I think it’s so important. We talked about this community return on investment, but to me, the other piece that’s so important is the purpose and the social value. You’re bringing to people in the sense of belonging. That’s why I feel so strongly that businesses, that build community in the future, you know, you, any young person today wants a company that shares their values, whether it’s around sustainability, like colo kind or, you know, focus on social justice, they wanna know what you stand for. And they’re not gonna find that out. If you don’t talk about it and engage them on it. I also think that community is not going to be a marketing function. We’re gonna start to see the biggest companies have a chief community officer, and there’s gonna be a whole new industry trained up around people being certified in community management.

John Cantarella (20:24): We’re already seeing a bunch of third party companies start to build metrics and tools so they can start to measure the value of community overall. And you know, the better we’re able to support our partners in being able to measure the value of their community. The stronger they’ll be. I’ll give you an example. There’s a, an incredible startup cold tonal. They’re a home startup and they have a home exercise machine and we’ve been working with them on a case study because they have this toll community on Facebook. And if you go on there, you see these people who are so dedicated to the exercise, but we also found that their most active community members work out with the product more than the average user and they are, are more and they’re much more significantly likely to recommend to tool brand. They also get feedback every Friday, it’s hashtag feedback Friday on how to improve their product.

John Cantarella (21:17): And they filter it back into the brand. You know, it it’s the full circle. So I think you’re gonna see more companies like to like Airbnb, like Coco kind and, and broke black girl invest in community and set themselves apart from everyone else. And I, it, you know, it wouldn’t be right if I didn’t, uh, mention the metaverse, you know, as we’re building, uh, virtual reality, we’re obviously making a really big investment there, you know, and part of what we’re gonna do is really help define what community will look like in the virtual world, which is gonna be fundamentally important. You know, if you can’t be there in person, you can be there with your avatar and hopefully get a sense of, what’s like to be a part of a community.

John Jantsch (21:56): You know, you mentioned obviously hybrid workplaces, distributed workplaces, you know, are, are certainly they’ve been going on for a long time. But I think that they just got a jolt , you know, from what we’ve done in the last few years, what role would a tool like, um, like your community groups play in retention of employees? You know, I think that’s a, that’s a pretty hot idea right now because, uh, so many people, I don’t know where they are working now, but so many people have left to go, uh, pursue other careers. And so retention and recruitment have become, you know, really hot right now for a lot of our organizations. What role can community play in that since we don’t have the natural sort of meeting community place?

John Cantarella (22:38): I think it’s so important to think about that. And, you know, and again, you’ve written about this. I think if you don’t start by building community with your company, it’s gonna be really hard for you to create an authentic community outside of your company for your customers. I think the beauty of working company look, I’ve worked, I worked in media for years and I’ve been at MEA for seven and a half years now. And we, you, you have a version of Facebook internally, cold workplace, and, you know, beyond the groups that we’ve created to collaborate. So you might have a group that you’re collaborating on a, around one project. We also have a lot of groups within our company that are just really fun. You know, it could be sad work from home meals, it could be, you know, you know, people at, at meta that are over 40, you know, they’re really fun and they help you build community overall with people within your organization when you can’t be in real life.

John Cantarella (23:36): And that really sustained a lot of people in our organization and in companies, not only, you know, communities, but even, you know, even tools like zoom or chats, you know, we have a chat for it’s a Peloton chat for folks on my team, and it’s a great way that we all just, you know, support each other and build a community around a shared interest. So I think that using digital tools is really important, but it can’t completely supplant, you know, in real life. And I think that combination of the two is really being thoughtful about how you bring the digital platform and the in real life potluck all together is really important.

John Jantsch (24:14): So John, tell me, you mentioned the playbook. That might be a good place to start, but if there are any other resources you wanna mention or draw our attention to,

John Cantarella (24:21): We do, and I’ll send you the, I’ll send you the URLs and you can add it to the site, but we, if you go to fb.me/business/community, I know that’s a mouthful, but we have a playbook. We have all kinds of resources for people that are building community. You know, I like to say to, to the team, it’s, you know, we, we are trying to be as colloquial and as sufficient price, as you know, know, I think that’s, again, you know, as possible where it’s like, how do you break it down? So that it’s really easy. Step one, step two, step three. So that it’s really easy for people to onboard. And the beauty of our tools too, the way they’ve been built is that there’s a lot of automation involved so that, you know, you don’t have to be air dust 24 hours a day, but, but you do have to be there to tend, you know, it’s like being a gardener, you know, make sure you head to it.

John Jantsch (25:08): Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, John, thanks so much for stopping by the duct tape marketing podcast and hopefully we’ll see you one of these days out there on the road,

John Cantarella (25:15): John, I really appreciate your time and, and thank you so much for having me.

John Jantsch (25:19): All right. So that wraps up another episode. I wanna thank you so much for tuning in and you know, we love those reviews and comments and just, I generally tell me what you think also did you know that you could offer the duct tape marketing system, our system to your clients and build a complete marketing consulting coaching business, or maybe level up an agency with some additional services. That’s right. Check out the duct tape marketing consultant network. You can find it at ducttapemarketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that offer our system to your client’s tab.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network.

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Local Marketing Strategies For Your Small Business

Local Marketing Strategies For Your Small Business written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Marketing Podcast with Laura Nelson

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Laura Nelson. Laura has marketed, sold to, and collaborated with local businesses for over 10 years of her career as a marketer and business manager. She is currently VP of Marketing at Signpost, following roles with Broadly, Reputation.com, and Patch. Laura earned an MBA from the University of Michigan and a BFA at Carnegie Mellon University.

Key Takeaway:

Marketing has changed for all types of business in the last few years thanks to new platforms, channels, and technology. But for small businesses — the changes have been revolutionary, often leveling the playing field and providing a way to reach their customers and new audiences in a low-cost, targeted, and personalized way. In this episode, I talk with the VP of Marketing at Signpost, Laura Nelson, about the latest trends in local marketing and what strategies to focus on.

Questions I ask Laura Nelson:

  • [1:17] So what did you work on in your fine arts and what do you do with it now in your life?
  • [2:07] Let’s talk about the local versus national differences in marketing — are there any significant differences let’s say for a plumber versus say a software company when it comes to digital marketing?
  • [3:57] Does a business with 10 locations need to be optimized for all 10 locations?
  • [5:40] For a lot of businesses, the Google profile presence is one of the most important aspects of the business — what do you have to do to show up there?
  • [8:52] Consumer behavior has changed dramatically — how have referrals changed the game for local businesses?
  • [12:27] How do we get those reviews from customers that seem to be happy?
  • [15:16] How do you manage all of the various channels available today like online, live chat, SMS, appointment scheduling, etc.?
  • [18:02] What are some industries that you think are ahead of the curve in having automated and integrated communication?
  • [20:25] What benefits can Duct Tape listeners redeem from Signposts?

More About Laura Nelson:

More About Duct Tape Marketing Consultant Network:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the salesman podcast, hosted by Will Barron and brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. Look, if you work in sales, wanna learn how to sell, and frankly who doesn’t check out the salesman podcast, where host will Barron helps sales professionals learn how to find buyers and win big business ineffective and ethical ways. And if you wanna start someplace, I recommend the four step process to influencing buying decisions. Listen to the Salesman Podcast, wherever you get your podcast.

John Jantsch (00:44): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Laura Nelson. She’s marketed, sold to and collaborated with local businesses for over 10 years of her career. As a marketer and business manager, she’s currently the vice president of marketing@signpostfollowingroleswithbroadlyreputation.com and patch. She an MBA from the university of Michigan and a BFA at Carnegie Mellon university. So Laura, welcome to the show.

Laura Nelson (01:15): Hi Jen. Thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (01:17): So what did you work on in your, uh, fine arts?

Laura Nelson (01:20): I was a paint drawing, um, print making specialists. So mostly two, two dimensional works. However, through the program, we had to learn how to use every medium from the traditional media to, uh, computer based video, everything in between.

John Jantsch (01:42): So, so what do you do with that now in life Still paint or,

Laura Nelson (01:47): Yeah. Awesome. I do still practice my art. I, I draw quite a bit and make prints of it and give them the friends or sell them. The pandemic was a great opportunity to get back into it. Just given that I had more spare time as

John Jantsch (02:03): We, I picked up the, I picked up the mandolin. Oh, there you go. So yeah, I think a lot of people did that. Yeah. So, so let’s, you are at signpost for those that don’t know signpost specializes in, in a lot of, uh, local marketing, uh, tactics. So we’re gonna talk about local national differences in marketing. So let’s start there. Are there any significant differences, uh, say for a plumber versus say a software company when it comes to digital marketing?

Laura Nelson (02:33): Yeah, absolutely. Um, a plumber primarily is trying to attract homeowners, you know, to his or her business right

John Jantsch (02:42): In their community generally. Right?

Laura Nelson (02:45): So like, you know, they are restricted by geography. They have a certain budget in mind. Often there are trade offs when they’re budgeting for marketing versus other, you know, expenses and other staff, et cetera, company like ours signposts. We are a B2B or business to business company. So we sell all across the United States and we sell primarily to businesses rather than to homeowners plumbers are our customers. Right, right, right. Along with other contractors who are looking for ways to, uh, attract homeowners with looking for ways to build their brand and their communities and ultimately grow their businesses. Right.

John Jantsch (03:30): So that local business that works in a community, obviously they, they want people generally speaking in proximity for a lot of businesses to, to be able to go online and find them. I mean, that’s obviously the major difference. And in, in my experience, especially lately, if they’re not finding you in maps and things like that, it’s almost like you don’t exist because so many people are making or purchase decisions that way. What about that business that has 10 locations, they have a, a different problem, a different challenge. Do they need to be optimizing for all 10 locations? How does that kinda change their calculus when it comes to, to online local marketing?

Laura Nelson (04:13): Absolutely. And you know, we work with businesses that have one to 10 locations. It’s just an example. That would be our sweet spot. You know, the single location is going to be solving for slightly like different problems than someone operating a business at 10 locations. Sure. They’re thinking about scale and achieving economies of scale, right. Depending on how they’re set up, you know, across multiple communities or multiple states, you know, they may have different, um, needs in turn of their marketing strategies, the reach and the software that they invest in. However, they, you know, the things that they have in common are the basics, right? You mentioned showing up on Google maps, like if your business is not optimized for that, you’re not part of the conversation. A homeowner is not going to find you and, and pick your business.

John Jantsch (05:07): Yeah. The, so, so let’s jump right to what makes Google maps happen. The Google business profile for a lot of businesses is I, I mean, we work with businesses. It’s probably the most important aspect. I mean, it’s scary because it’s owned by somebody else, but it’s, it is, it’s probably the most important aspect having optimized, having the right signals there, having lots of good reviews, but obviously showing up. I mean, that, that, that, you know, for a lot of local marketers is maybe job one. I mean, so what advice, I, I know you work with business owners, helping them optimize that, uh, tool. So what, you know, what advice I, I’m sure people come to you all the time, say, I wanna show up in that thing of, of course you do. What do we have to do to show up in that thing?

Laura Nelson (05:49): You’re absolutely right. John, the Google business profile also formerly known as Google. My business is probably the most important thing you can do to establish your business’s presence online. And everyone wants to be in what we call that local repack, right? When someone searches for plumbers in your area or roofers cetera, you wanna be one of those businesses that’s in the top three that are most obvious to those homeowners looking to solve a problem. The real challenge as you alluded to is that, you know, that is somewhat out of our control. Right? Right. There are basics that we can do to invest in improving that profile. Like first claim it first. And for most, if a business hasn’t claimed their presence on Google, you know, they’re missing out on this free opportunity to be found and chosen. So that’s number one. But beyond that, there are optimizations to do right.

Laura Nelson (06:51): Link it to your website, link it to your scheduler, add photos of your team and the work that you do, make sure your phone number’s right. Yeah. I just went over to, uh, a granite countertop business over my lunch break a few minutes ago. And you know, I told him, Hey, I’ve tried to call you for two days and your number’s not ringing through. Right. So we’ll get into what happens next in terms of a homeowner making that next step. But getting all that critical information is, you know, absolutely essential to showing up online. And of course, I, I don’t want to leave out customer reviews. Right. We don’t know the perfect Google formula to, you know, what enables a business to rank in that three pack. But we do reviews are an important part of that. So having a lot of reviews, ensuring you’ve got a consistent, um, stream of them over time is really important.

John Jantsch (07:50): Yeah. And, and, and actually I think they are giving some pretty good clues these days, because if you do a local search, a lot of times what they surface will say, well, these words were in some of the reviews. I mean, and they’ll actually show you some of those reviews. So we obviously know that they are, that they are using those really almost like keywords in the past for optimization. One of the things that, of course over the last 10 years, let’s say has dramatically changed for local business is, is just the way people buy. You know, everybody wants to talk about how all the changes in these platforms and new, you know, new networks and things that show up, but it’s really the consumer behavior, you know, has really changed dramatically. And I would say that even comes to referrals. So referrals are for local businesses, word of mouth for local businesses, still a huge, uh, way that they generate business. But you used to be, if I went across the fence and asked my neighbor and they said, oh, you should call this for remodelling contractor. I just picked up the phone. I called, you know, today I go and I do a full review of them, you know, to, before I ever call. So how has that, how has that, what I just described kind of changed the game for local vis.

Laura Nelson (08:58): Yeah, it definitely has. And we perfectly described how homeowners have shifted their behavior. Right? We’ll still have those conversations with friends and neighbors and trust what they say, but then we’re gonna go online to what we learned. Right. So if my neighbor tells me, Hey, work with this contractor, he did a great job. I still need to go on Google to figure out how to get in touch with him. Right. Right. If I see something lower than a four and a half or four stars, I’m gonna start to question right. That recommendation, right? These are people who are coming into homes and, you know, doing an important job. And you know, if the quality of the reviews isn’t aligned with that recommendation, I’m gonna start doing my homework. I’m gonna start looking at other providers in my area. Yeah. That’s one way, I think also, you know, first and foremost, people are starting that search on Google, right.

Laura Nelson (10:00): That’s where the majority of people are starting, but there’s this other class of referral that I don’t want local business owners to miss out on. And, and that’s the conversations that are happening in Facebook groups. Sure. On nextdoor, you know, especially when it’s a tougher project. And for instance, I can refer back to the contracting project I’m working on right now. It’s a smaller job. It’s not a mansion, but I do have a renovation planned. And you know, I had a hard time connecting with the contractor through traditional means, right? Like filling out contact forms and calling people. Yeah. So I went on next door and posted, I went in faced groups to post and asked people, you know, who do you recommend? And I got a lot of responses that way. Yeah. So it’s another important thing to keep an eye on.

John Jantsch (10:52): And now let’s hear from our sponsor. Look, if you’re tired of slowing down your teams with clunky software processes and marketing that is difficult to scale, HubSpot is here to help you and your business grow better with collaboration tools and built in SEO optimizations. A HubSpot CRM platform is tailor made to help you scale your marketing with ease, integrated calendars, tasks, and commenting, help hybrid teams stay connected while automated SEO recommendations, intuitively optimize your webpage content for increased organic traffic ditch, the difficult and dial up your marketing with tools that are easy to use and easy to scale learn how your business can grow better@ hubspot.com SOS.

John Jantsch (11:38): So many of the home services industries right now are swamped in, I mean, getting somebody to even call you back right now, it’s gotten, uh, much more difficult than you would think it should be is hasn’t it?

John Jantsch (11:48): So, so let’s jump back to, uh, reviews. You mentioned that 4.5, uh, I’ve actually seen some interesting research on that, that, that says 4.6, 4.7 is actually the perfect score. And that’s because I think as consumers, we see 105 star reviews and we kind of go, uh nobody’s perfect. And so I think that’s interesting. You actually wanna few three star reviews that you can respond to in a public way. I think, because it, it, it feels more believable, but I know I work with a lot of businesses that have customers that love them, but they still can’t get reviews. So how do we get those reviews from customers that seem to be happy?

Laura Nelson (12:33): You’re absolutely right about, you know, these mid four star reviews are great. Yeah. Right. Real business is perfect and they’ll make mistakes and you’ll see the occasional irate customer that adds to the authenticity of the reviews that are there. Right. So it’s so painful and so personal. Right. Especially when a business gets a, a one star review it, the recommendation here is to bury it with positive reviews. Sure. So you asked how, right. It all comes down to putting a process in place and getting your team behind it and ensuring that you have the right tools. Yeah. So for example, I see team all the time who, you know, wrap up a job, they have a happy homeowner right there and, you know, fail to take the extra step and say like, you know, Hey, are you happy? And, and if so, would you mind writing a review for our business?

Laura Nelson (13:26): You know, these matter to us, they help us find more homeowners just like you. And you know, it’d be mean the world to us, if you did, that’s one, you know, making that ask personal, when you wrap up every job and number two is actually following up, right. Gotta make it easy for the homeowner. If they can’t find your Google listing, if they can’t find your Yelp listing, even if they have the best intentions they’re gonna move on with their day. Right. They’re gonna go somewhere else. Like they wanted to do it, but it wasn’t easy. And, and that’s where tools like signposts can really make a difference. Right? You shoot, ’em a text message. You shoot, ’em an email goes right to your listing link and takes several steps out of the process and ensures that it gets done.

John Jantsch (14:13): Yeah. And I, it, it’s funny that, uh, you know, QR codes are certainly high having a day again. Right. Um, because we all got used to ordering our hamburgers with them and

Laura Nelson (14:23): Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:23): So I’m seeing more and more people put those on business cards and things, you know, for reviews because it is actually, everybody knows how to do it now, you know, you you’re seeing them in ads on television and things. I mean, it, it’s kind of funny cuz they were hot 10 years ago and then it just kind of went away. But they really so, so to your point of making it easy, certainly a way to do it.

Laura Nelson (14:44): Yeah. QR codes are a great tool and, and you used to need a separate app to read them, but now we can read them through the cameras on our phones and you know, that’s a great DIY way to leave behind a card with a customer, no matter what business you’re in. Like they know how to use them. Now.

John Jantsch (15:05): It’s kinda like when it’s kinda like when podcasts first came out, it was very hard to listen to ’em and when apple put the app right on the iPhone, all of a sudden podcast took off as well.

Laura Nelson (15:15): Oh yeah.

John Jantsch (15:16): So what about all the, one of the things I know frustrates some business owners, but I think it’s, it’s like back in the day when it’s like you, you have to take credit cards and checks and cash, you know, now you have to be online and chat. You have to use SMS, have to have appointment scheduling because people are going to, people want to interact with you the way they want to interact with you. How do you manage all of those various channels?

Laura Nelson (15:41): Yeah. It’s incredibly difficult. And this is where technology and other services can make it super easy. I referenced that granite countertop store, my first breast for reference was not to call them, but they forced me into it.

John Jantsch (15:56): Right,

Laura Nelson (15:57): Right. So I will not always do that because I would like a path of lease resistance. Yeah. And that’s what homeowners and customers are really gravitating toward, but I send way more texts a day than make phone calls. And I think that’s common across the population. So if I can get a quick answer, you know, through text message or through chat, I’m gonna do that. I’m gonna take out the friction of a phone call, but that’s like, that’s very difficult for businesses to manage if they’re using like their traditional tools. Yeah. Like, you know, the owner’s cell phone and you know, a team member, cell phones and you know, a chat widget,

John Jantsch (16:37): Someone’s gonna be there’s yeah. Graded.

Laura Nelson (16:39): Yeah. If it’s not integrated. Yes. It becomes overwhelming. Right. Right. And you have to hire someone to manage all of that. That’s what signpost helps to make easy is to bring all of those messages into one place. So you don’t and have 50 tabs open of leads coming from different sources that can come into one dashboard. Yeah. Right. And you’ve got all your messages there where you can fire off quick replies or automated replies too. Yep. Is really important. You know, if you miss a customer’s call, for example, know, our system can send a text and ensure that customer was heard. Right. We got your message. We’ll get back to you. And that enables you to start a text conversation, right. With them.

John Jantsch (17:23): You can say, while you’re waiting, here’s the 27 projects we did last week, right? Yeah, exactly.

Laura Nelson (17:27): You can customize that reply. You can send your scheduling link, you can get them kind of moving down the funnel of making a decision of whether they’re going to hire you.

John Jantsch (17:37): Yeah. Yeah. It’s a very differentiator too. Cuz a lot of people may maybe called three people, you know, Sunday night, you know, waiting for them to all come call ’em back Monday morning. And uh, yeah. All of a sudden you’ve advanced the ball a little bit by having

Laura Nelson (17:50): And people are gonna hire the person who responds first simple

John Jantsch (17:55): Cases. That’s right. Especially the environment where we’re in now, its anybody responds. They’re probably gonna get hired. What are some industries where you think or ahead of the curve in this and, and then I guess maybe, well you don’t have to name some that aren’t doing it well other than to say, if you’re not doing it well, you can learn from these people.

Laura Nelson (18:15): Yeah. I think, you know, in the realm that we’re talking about, say online reviews and communications technologies. In my experience, I’ve seen dental and medical offices a little ahead of the curve there. That’s not to, to say all of them are because you know, the issue now that we’re seeing is that the software is pretty educated, so it doesn’t solve all of their needs, but there was a time when dental adoption of these products was quite sure

John Jantsch (18:43): The it’s probably true of anybody who lived by appointment, you know, scheduled all day long. You know, that, that, that those were probably some of the first adopters weren’t they?

Laura Nelson (18:54): Yeah. Because like they, you know, they want to fill every slot in their day and they know if, you know, if someone cancels, didn’t get a reminder as just an example and they’re losing revenue yeah. For that spot. And it’s very difficult for them to fill unless they’ve got a long waiting list and you know, people are available fill slots.

John Jantsch (19:11): Can I just complain about the people that send me an email, call me and send me a text as well. They really need to, it’s like when we first got into the AI bots, you know, it’s like, they’ve gotta be done well or they’re really not very helpful.

Laura Nelson (19:25): I totally agree. I think that, you know, businesses, you’ve gotta choose one and my recommendation is communicate in the way back that the person came in. Right? Yeah. With the exception, if you missed their call, you ha you give them that option of texting back. That’s just, you know, a common courtesy. Right. But yeah, aside from that, you know, people don’t need to be bombarded. Correct. That’s not a great experience and you know, that may turn them off. So it’s really risky.

John Jantsch (19:55): Yeah.

Laura Nelson (19:56): To add on the question that you asked previously, signpost really concentrates on contractors though, we serve dozens and dozens of industries. We focus on contractors because we saw real need, you know, there are companies across the spectrum when it comes to tech adoption and, and marketing savviness. So we saw that, you know, there was a need, we had the best product market bit. And so that’s why primarily we focus in that area.

John Jantsch (20:25): Yep. So we’ve mentioned the name signpost, it’s just signpost.com. Do you, do you wanna invite anybody for the 50% off, uh, special because they’re a duct tape listener.

Laura Nelson (20:36): Yes, absolutely. Um, visit, sign post. I can’t guarantee that you’ll get a 50% off rate, but you know, certainly if you are a listener, you are eligible for a promo rate. So visit signpost.com, visit the upper right corner and request a demo, check our product out, see if it’s a good fit for your company.

John Jantsch (20:59): Laura saying, thanks so much for stopping by the duct tape marketing podcast. And hopefully we’ll, uh, get to run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Laura Nelson (21:06): Thank you so much us John. Really appreciate it.

John Jantsch (21:09): All right. So that wraps up another episode. I wanna thank you so much for tuning in and you know, we love those reviews and comments. And just generally tell me what you think also did you know that you could offer the duct tape marketing system, our system to your clients and build a complete marketing consulting coaching business, or maybe level up an agency with some additional services. That’s right. Check out the duct tape marketing consultant network. You can find it at ducttapemarketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that offer our system to your client’s tab.

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network.

HubSpot Podcast Network is the audio destination for business professionals who seek the best education and inspiration on how to grow a business.

 

 

Rolling Out The Red Carpet For Your Employees

Rolling Out The Red Carpet For Your Employees written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Marketing Podcast with Donna Cutting

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Donna Cutting. Donna is the Founder and CEO of Red-Carpet Learning Worldwide and works with mission-driven leaders to help them create cultures of happy, engaged people who deliver exceptional customer service. She’s the author of three books including: The Celebrity Experience: Insider Secrets to Delivering Red-Carpet Customer Service and her new book Employees First! Inspire, Engage, and Focus on the HEART of Your Organization.

Key Takeaway:

The world is changing and it’s time to take care of the people who take care of your customers. How do we get an hourly employee who has never received red carpet customer service, to give it? The answer is obvious, isn’t it? You roll out the red carpet for them, of course.

In this episode, Donna Cutting joins me as we talk about how giving your team members a voice in your company, supporting them with knowledge and training, giving them purpose and equitable pay, translates into higher productivity and happier customers. We dive into core concepts from her new book Employees First! and share strategies for honoring the very people who make your company what it is—your internal customers—your team.

Questions I ask Donna Cutting:

  • [1:18] Would you say that in a lot of ways you writing a book about inspiring and engaging with your employees is a derivative of customer service?
  • [6:11] How do you get people to think about this as a journey?
  • [9:54] Would you talk a little bit about the messaging that you’re seeing that really attracts the kind of employee that’s looking for something meaningful?
  • [13:06] Similarly to buyer’s remorse, sometimes people experience remorse after taking a new job — how can we keep that experience as high as everything that attracted them?
  • [15:54] What are you finding in that channel as a way to attract new employees?
  • [17:17] Do we need to change the way that we think about women and diversity in the workplace?
  • [19:50] Where can people find out more about the work that you do?

More About Donna Cutting:

More About Duct Tape Marketing Consultant Network:

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the salesman podcast, hosted by Will Barron and brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. Look, if you work in sales, wanna learn how to sell, and frankly who doesn’t check out the salesman podcast, where hosts will Barron helps sales professionals learn how to find buyers and win big business ineffective and ethical ways. And if you wanna start someplace, I recommend the four step process to influencing buying decisions. Listen to the salesman podcast, wherever you get your podcast.

John Jantsch (00:43): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Donna Cutting. She is the founder and CEO of red carpet learning worldwide and works with mission driven leaders. To help them create cultures of happy, engaged people who deliver exceptional customer service. She’s the author of three books, including the celebrity experience. And one we’re gonna talk about today, a new one called employees first inspire, engage and focus on the heart of your organization. So welcome back, Donna.

Donna Cutting (01:15): Thanks, John. It’s good. Always good to be here with you.

John Jantsch (01:18): So, you know, in a lot of ways you writing a book about treating your employees or inspiring engaging is really just sort of derivative of customer service, right? I mean, because guess who’s delivering customer service.

Donna Cutting (01:32): Yeah, exactly. I actually love that. You put it that way because so many people will say, oh, you’re switching now, you’re going to a place I’m like, no, I’m not switching it all. We’re talking about your internal customers. And in many ways it’s the book I should have written first.

John Jantsch (01:49): Well, I mean, it’s all just positioning because I mean, a lot of, I know in your previous work, a lot of customer services is about, I mean, your people are probably treating their customers about as well as you’re treating your people. Right. So, I mean, there, there’s definitely, you’ve definitely written in red carpet really about the idea of getting engaged, you know, people involved in the purpose. I mean, so it’s really in a lot of ways, it’s not that different, is it?

Donna Cutting (02:15): No, it’s not. And there’s always been, uh, it it’s, it’s definitely not because it all works together, right. It’s how you treat your team member versus it is how they treat your, is how they treat your customers and all of that stems also from the culture that you’re creating. So, and there’s always been you’re right. There’s always been a chapter, a theme throughout both of my other books that focused, uh, perhaps more on traditional customers, but that you had to re really look at how you treat your employees as well. But this one is dedicated specifically to employees

John Jantsch (02:52): And we’re really not just talking about, uh, foosball tables and cappuccino machines. I mean, you know, as like, oh, give ’em lots of perks. I mean, really at the heart of this is the idea of giving them a, a purpose or something to believe in, isn’t it?

Donna Cutting (03:05): Yeah. It’s a lot of different things cuz we’re going through so many changes right now. And you can imagine John, it was such a daunting task to write a book in, in about the employee experience in a time when are going through, uh, such incredible chain, but yeah, really looking at what is it that people really want, you know, and one of those things that keeps coming up again and again is, and especially after, you know, having gone through what we’ve been through in the last couple of years, just really looking people are looking for meaning in their work and you know, what am I, what am I giving to that gives me a purpose that’s beyond a paycheck and the paycheck’s important. Don’t get me wrong. It, it’s probably more important than we’ve believed it to be in the past, but, but beyond the paycheck, what, what am I doing that is contributing to something that’s greater than myself, that’s making a difference in the world.

John Jantsch (04:05): Yeah. And that’s maybe that’s a bit of an attitude change. I, I, it certainly is something that’s associated say with millennials and the next generation, but I think it’s actually, as you said, we keep pointing to this, you know, with all the change we’ve gone through, I mean, a lot of feel 50 year olds are resigning from their possessions and looking for that, that meaning all of a sudden, I think that’s probably a bigger, uh, sea change maybe than just kind of a generational change.

Donna Cutting (04:32): Yeah. There’s a couple of things. Well I think all of us, right, or many of us I’ll say many of us because I got called out on LinkedIn, by somebody who said, you know, they’ve always held to their values and nothing about them has changed since the pandemic. So we’ll say many people, many people I think got really clear about what really matters, you know, in their life. And so that’s, what’s driving their choices. So if they choose to continue in you working work, life balance is going to be a huge part of the discussion, a part of their decision about where they want to work. But I think you’re right. That’s where we’re seeing a lot of people who, you know, in their fifties, early sixties retiring a little sooner than they anticipated. They would in many cases because they’ve decided no it’s time to, to move on, to really focus on what matters in my life. And this is a huge change because there are so many more people in that age bracket than even, you know, millennials and the generation Z. So that’s causing a lot of a little disruption in the workplace right now.

John Jantsch (05:48): So one of the things that I’ve been, um, preaching for years is this idea of an end to end customer journey that, you know, that attracts the right people that, you know, really has them see you as the logical choice that retains customers that turns them into evangelists. And really, I think in a lot of ways for hiring, we’re talking about the same kind of journey, right? I mean, there is an attraction component. There is a great experience, you know, component, there is a retention component. So, you know, how do you kind of view that end to end? Because a lot of people, oh, I need to run better ads on indeed, you know, as hiring. Right. So how do you get people to think about this as a journey?

Donna Cutting (06:23): Yeah. And you’re absolutely right. It all works together and I think what’s happened. You know, I think, I don’t think we’re talking about anything that people haven’t heard before, but I think what it, what happened in the workplace before was a lot of like short term bandaid thinking the I’ve got to run a better ad on a indeed, you know, and, and really, I think the organizations that are gonna come ahead that are going to attract the best people that are going to are the ones who are going to look at the whole journey and say, really look at their organizational culture and ask the questions. Like, are we really making people feel valued? Are we really, are they clear even what the expectations are and what, you know, going back to, to traditional customer service? Like what does that even look like? And are we giving them the tools that they need and you know, are we supporting them in the way that they’re excited and, and inspired and feel like they have some personal professional development that can happen in the organization and this takes time, it takes planning. It takes commitment. Yeah. But the organization know leaders that are willing to look at that journey and really commit to it are the ones five years, 10 years from now are gonna come out ahead.

John Jantsch (07:45): Yeah. And I think you, you missed a key. It also takes investment, you know, for a lot of organizations, but I use the word investment as opposed to cost because it, the theory is, uh, there’s going to be a return on that investment.

Donna Cutting (07:57): There’s gonna be a return. And also I think, you know, it’s amazing to me, even with my own customers, when I ask the question, you know, have you put dollars and cents to what it’s costing you to all this employee turnover that you have. And very few of them have, like, they know it’s costing them money, but they don’t know exactly how much. Sure. You know. Yeah. And I think if you people really looked at the numbers, the amount of money that they were spending because of this, you know what I’m calling bandaid thinking like quick fix thinking and not committing to that whole journey, they would find that the resources to be able to do it, or there is just shifting a focus from, you know, short term thinking to long term strategy.

John Jantsch (08:43): And now let’s hear from our sponsor, you know, as a business owner, you eventually realize you can’t do everything yourself, but hiring is complicated. And what if you only need part-time help your job is to be the visionary. But instead you spend countless hours on tasks that could be done easily and arguably better by someone else. And that’s where the powerful multiplying effects of delegation, our mission critical our friends at Belay can help. Belay is an incredible organiz revolutionizing productivity with their virtual assistance bookkeepers website specialists and social media managers for growing organizations to help you get started. Belay is offering their latest, e-book delegate to elevate for free to all of my listeners. Now in this e-book, you’ll learn how to re name time to focus on what you can do by delegating to download your free copy. Just text tape to 5, 5, 1, 2, 3, that’s TAPE to 5, 5, 1, 2, 3, accomplish more and juggle less with Belay.

John Jantsch (09:54): So let’s break down a couple of components. You know, one of the first one is, you know, messaging that attracts, we work with a lot of clients that now we’ve shifted to, you know, helping them attract folks in their marketing. Right. And you know, we were working with a contractor looking for skilled liper folks and you know, their ads are all about, here’s the benefits you get, you know, here’s what you can expect. You know, here’s why this good job. And we changed their message and they were getting nothing with, and we changed their messaging to be something around the idea of, are you getting the respect that you deserve in your current job? And all of a sudden it’s like, boom. You know, they got attention. And I think that’s a part that a lot of people are missing. People. People don’t necessarily change jobs for $2 an hour, you know, more it’s they leave a bad situation. So talk a little bit about, you know, the messaging that you’re seeing that really attracts that kind of player that’s looking for something meaningful.

Donna Cutting (10:47): Yeah. That’s so interesting. It’s funny. My friend, Steven Tweed who’s in the home care space, he did a, a study with caregivers in, in the home care space. And one of the things they found was that putting a number like putting a salary or a wage on the ad was actually beneficial in attracting people, but it doesn’t keep people. So what keeps people is exactly what I think you just said is, are people feeling, uh, respected? Are they, you honestly, John, this is, this is all of what I talk about. It’s really about whether you’re talking about traditional customers or employees or just people in general. We wanna be seen, we wanna be heard. We want to feel like we matter, right. That’s, that’s the bottom line of what we’re talking about. So when people feel like they’re not seeing, they’re not her, they’re not respected.

Donna Cutting (11:43): That is when they’re more likely to start looking around. And right now they have a lot of different options. And I think, you know, I’ve been doing a study with hourly workers on what makes them feel valued. And a lot of times, I think, again, what we do in organizations is the quick, like we’ll do employee appreciation day, right. Or the pizza party, or we’re just gonna thank everybody, you know, the hero side, all of those wonderful things. I’m not putting them down, but none of that is coming up in my conversations with hourly workers about what makes them feel valued. It’s more, you know, somebody individually noticed something that I did that I contributed, right. Or somebody saw something in the, my boss saw something in me that I didn’t even see in myself. And now I’ve grown professionally, you know, as a result of that. And then just people knowing them, knowing their names. Yeah, yeah. You know, knowing what’s going on in their life and then caring about their work life balance is really huge.

John Jantsch (12:52): So let’s go to the next phase. You know, a lot of people probably have stories, listeners, I’m sure where they, you know, got a new job. They’re all excited about, they showed up on day one and it’s like, nobody greeted them. Nobody really made ’em feel welcome. And I know you have your red carpet onboarding. So maybe talk a little bit about some of the ways, I mean, that’s the customer experience, right. Buyers remorse happened, you know, I took the job that’s of alert of buyers remorse. Right. And so, you know, how can we keep that experience as high as everything that’s attracted

Donna Cutting (13:19): From day one? And I think, I mean, this is so great for you too, because one of the things I think is that human resources and hiring managers could be working with people and marketing professionals. Right. Exactly. To really look at that experience. But one of the things that because of, uh, staffing shortages, yeah. You know, something that I’m seeing is people, you know, they bring ’em on board. They give ’em whatever education, they need to complete whatever compliance, you know, depending, especially in healthcare or financial services or whatever. They’re like these compliance ribbon training, you know, education they need to have. And then they get ’em out there as soon as possible because they need people out on the floor and they’re losing them within three days. You know, not sometime I’ve even heard. Some people say they ghost them in the middle of orientation.

Donna Cutting (14:10): Right. Like they start the day and then they leave at lunch. And so, so really being intentional about, yeah, what are you creating an orientation and an onboarding process that introduces them to your culture that connects them to coworkers that, um, communicates and clarifies all of those little things they need to know to really start the job effective. And yes, then those compliant activities. But then are you partnering up with someone who is well prepared to be able to mentor them through, you know, the first few weeks of their job? Are you looking at like, you know, how would you roll out the red carpet for a customer on their first day? And are you generating ideas around, around that as well? Like literally roll the red carpet. Sure. But are you sending note cards? Are you staying in touch? Are you checking back in with them? Is there a sign, you know, with their name on it, when they walk in the door, there could be any number of ways to do that. The focus is how in, and of course I share many of those ways in the book employees first, but it’s really about acting with intention instead of just like bringing people in as quickly as possible and then throwing them out there because you have a need.

John Jantsch (15:33): All right, let’s move on down the journey. One of the, probably most effective ways to get new employees is a happy employee, says, I’ve got a friend who ought to join us, but I hear time and time again from employees, they just can’t get ’em to do it. Uh, they can’t get, they don’t get the referrals. They think they should, they make offers, they give money, they give bonuses. What are you finding in that avenue or that channel as a way to attract new employees?

Donna Cutting (16:00): Yeah. I, I mean, I’d be questioning why that is. Yeah, yeah. Right. You know, that’s the thing because, and money and bonuses is one thing. Again, I see that a lot, like referral bonuses, I also, and on bonuses that it’s a, a short term strategy though. If you have a group of employees who are really thrilled to be working at your company, they’re, they’re going to tell their friends they’re going to recruit their friends. So one of the best things I think that employers can be doing right now is to really focus on ask what’s our, our listening strategy. Like how are we really listen, you know, asking the right questions and listening to our employees without getting defensive, without jumping in with solutions, but then collaborating with people at all levels of the organization to create whatever that employee experience is going to be. That’s gonna want, make them want to bring their friends to, to come and work with them.

John Jantsch (17:05): So couple things that are going on, you know, we already talked about the, how higher tough it was hiring, but one segment of the work force really dropped out during the pandemic. And that’s, what do we need to do? We need to change the way that we think about women in the workplace, given what went on. Do we need to think differently about diversity in the workplace in general, and, and particularly for companies that, that just hasn’t, I mean, right or wrong at just, hasn’t been their thing, you know, how do they now start thinking we have to change? Or how do they start changing?

Donna Cutting (17:40): Yeah. So the answer to all of that is, is yes, because people’s priorities are shifting. And I think people are less, less people in general are less likely to just accept the way it is. You know, they want something different. And so women, not just women, but families, right? Looking at mater maternity and paternity leave, looking at, you know, childcare, like all of those different things. And I’ll go back to what I said at the last question is if you want the answers to, what’s gonna be attractive to, to the women, you know, in your workplace. So the families in your workplace is to start asking them really, to sit down and say, you know, if this were an ideal workplace for women and families, you know, what would that include? And, and then start working towards bringing some of those elements in flexible scheduling, remote work, and some organizations, some positions remote work is not possible, but are you more flexible in your scheduling?

Donna Cutting (18:43): You know, all of those different things. And then going back to the second part of your question, which was about just diverse of the inclusion and equity in general. Absolutely. What I think needs to happen is much more, much deeper conversations around what that looks like in the workplace. What, what we’ve done again, that, that bandaid quick fix, like what we’ve done in the past is, oh, let’s have a session on diversity in the work place. And then check that box when it’s over. And I think, you know, this is gonna be something people are gonna be looking for, you know, how diverse are you, how inclusive is your organization? And that means taking a look at all of your language, who’s gotta seat at the table. What is your website look like? You know, what kind of respect you know, is happening between coworkers and that’s a much deeper conversation than, um, what many leaders have been willing to do in the past.

John Jantsch (19:42): Yeah. It’s kind of a compliance versus culture. Exactly. Conversation.

Donna Cutting (19:46): Yeah, exactly. That’s it.

John Jantsch (19:48): So Donna tell people, uh, where they can find out more about your work at the learning world or red carpet learning worldwide. And then obviously I pick up a copy of your new book.

Donna Cutting (19:58): Yes. Yes. So red carpet learning.com is the website. And always, you can connect with me on social, like all the social, LinkedIn, all of it. But employees first inspire, engage and focus on the heart of your organization by me, cutting available, amazon.com, Barnes and noble.com, Hudson book sellers, all those places where books are sold comes out April 1st. So depending on when you’re listening to this podcast, you can either pre-order or order it then. Awesome.

John Jantsch (20:27): Awesome. Well, Don, it was great catching up. You, I appreciate you taking the time to stop by the show and hopefully we’ll run into you. Uh, one of these days out there on the road again.

Donna Cutting (20:36): Thank you, John. I hope so, too. Always good to talk to you.

John Jantsch (20:39): All right. So that wraps up another episode. I wanna thank you so much for tuning in and you know, we love those reviews and comments. And just generally tell me what you think also did you know that you could offer the duct tape marketing system, our system to your clients, and build a complete marketing consulting coaching business, or maybe level up an agency with some additional services. That’s right. Check out the duct tape marketing consultant network. You can find it at ducttapemarketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that offer our system to your client’s tab.

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