John Jantsch (00:01.806)

So nine out of ten clients say their agency makes them more likely to succeed. I guess that’s the good news, right? four out of those ten are also planning to cut back on their relationship within a year. We’ll talk more about that. So, hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Brian Gertzner. He’s the co-founder of Agency Core, an organization that does independent research study.

They surveyed over five hundred and seventy-nine agency leaders and four hundred of their own clients in twenty twenty six. he is also the president of White Label IQ, a ninety person team that works exclusively with agencies, spent more than twenty years in the business. We’re gonna talk about that research. So, Brian, welcome to the show.

Brian Gerstner (00:50.782)

It’s a pleasure. How are you, John?

John Jantsch (00:53.104)

awesome. So you know, there’s a lot of organizations out there. You’ve been in the business twenty years, a lot of organizations out there doing producing data. Is there something that you’re trying to learn or you like initially started this to try to learn that maybe nobody else is ev is measuring?

Brian Gerstner (01:09.034)

Well, it it was really about looking inside of agencies. You know, in in all the time I’ve been, you know, working inside of agencies, it it’s really a bubble. Like you’re doing everything you can to the best you can and you’re not really exactly sure how other peers are are successful or what they’re doing. So we wanted agency core to really take a look inside of agencies so that people could see how people are being successful, what kind of retention, where they’re focusing, what kind of products they’re selling, what

John Jantsch (01:25.91)

Yes.

Brian Gerstner (01:39.144)

And at the end of the day, truly, the study is an attitudinal study. So it’s not about the specific mechanics, but it has a lot to do with like the overlying attitudes that people have and how those attitudes really reflect how successful they are and what they’re doing.

John Jantsch (01:50.925)

Yes.

John Jantsch (01:56.813)

Yeah, you know, we work with a lot of agencies. And I I tell you, I’ve been doing it that for twenty years as well. And it it, you know, you say attitude, I’ve been using the w the word mindset, you know, because I think there definitely is a there’s a bigger shift going on right now, it feels like, than ever, you know, before since I’ve been in this. And a lot of it is they just have to wrap their heads around a whole different way of going to market, even, or at least that’s what we’re seeing. Y your study actually

does kind of sort agencies into a couple groups that I would call maybe mindset. You know, has a lot to do with those groups. One called the confident differentiator. That was maybe my my favorite. what is a what does a confident differentiator do day to day that puts them in that segment?

Brian Gerstner (02:43.785)

Yeah, so it it it’s a classic story, right? We’ve all heard about niching down. but the key in that attitudinal s segment is that we see these are people who have taken a position. It’s not just, you know, sitting down with your team, you know, talking like, here’s who we are, here’s what we do. But it’s really about, you know, spending the time going out speaking, writing, creating content around it.

John Jantsch (02:50.016)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (02:58.05)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (03:11.805)

you know, turning down clients that don’t really fit that core focus that you’re providing. So they’re they’re creating that classic true differentiation that, you know, we all talk about in Seek, but when we I think as we look at the study and things we might touch on is the statistically the people who are in that particular segment are doing way better. I mean, you know, even as we talk about differentiation, we’re seeing the numbers really start to create a huge gap.

John Jantsch (03:15.35)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (03:41.063)

And how those individuals are much more successful and competent.

John Jantsch (03:46.176)

And and not just revenue, profit, probably, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (03:49.258)

Well, I mean, we’re we’re not really talking about products specifically, but like things like how relevant is my agency? How much of a concern is do I have about being able to justify the fees that I’m providing? You know, is AI you know, how much how much of a threat is AI to my business model? Those individuals are reporting, you know, much more confidence around those types of areas. So we’re not specifically talking about profit, but once again

John Jantsch (03:57.045)

okay.

Brian Gerstner (04:19.401)

The the attitude here.

John Jantsch (04:19.734)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So so I you know, we encounter, I mean, th this idea of, you know, find a niche has been around a long time. I think a lot of people have gone down that path maybe incorrectly. in other words, saying, We’re gonna just work with Dennis starting tomorrow. and and and and and then find, you know, six months in that they don’t really Dennis isn’t a good market or you know, whatever the

Brian Gerstner (04:37.502)

I need a

John Jantsch (04:47.17)

Not picking on dentists, just you know, it’s more the the approach. So so what does your sir survey say about that kind of hesitation of like, I don’t wanna turn other you know, other stuff away.

Brian Gerstner (04:58.901)

So this is more me speaking as agency owner and just kind of in there. I you know, if someone comes up to you and in your heart you know you can help them and they have a big bag of money in their hands, my goodness, take it. You know? being able to niche down is really an a function of you know, are you demonstrating an authority? And at the end of the day, are other people

John Jantsch (05:11.436)

Yeah yeah. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

Brian Gerstner (05:28.199)

saying, hey, they’re really good at this, because we can talk about ourselves all we want, but the moment other people start saying, Hey, these particular people have a great reputation in this one particular area, that’s that that’s when you know you’re you’re truly, you know, establishing that that confident differentiating positions.

John Jantsch (05:31.404)

Yes.

John Jantsch (05:49.343)

So one of the I see this all the time. 13 to 16% of agency owners say they’re fully executed on the strategies they name as their top priorities. what’s up with that?

Brian Gerstner (06:01.141)

So that’s wild. I you know, we I know being a college kid in in the business is like common, you know, like we’re we’re horrible at doing our own marketing, but we do it for others all the time. what I I for me that statistic stands out greatly because there’s so much change in the market with AI and just the way things are changing, you know, and the fact that you know, if you’re using a cloud, I’m using open AI.

John Jantsch (06:09.538)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (06:13.026)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (06:31.731)

we’re all kind of the same agency at the end of the day if we’re not really standing on a particular reputation or authority. So when we look at 13% only executing it, what what blows my mind is when there’s so much change happening and we know like a lot of the you know actual deliverable work that we do is being commoditized more rapidly than ever before.

John Jantsch (06:38.531)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (06:58.247)

I look at it and it just blows my mind. We’ve got to be able to do better. I mean, our our business are our business models might fail for those who are sitting there and rely on the complexity of marketing, you know, being able to execute because it’s too technical. I mean that that the tide’s going out and AI has really eroded that area. So unless we’re really showing authority and a true understanding of our clients,

John Jantsch (07:12.888)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:19.224)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (07:26.921)

we’re not going to be able to be competitive. And what wh I really like gives me a lot of hope about this is once again, it’s about the fundamentals of marketing are still so true.

John Jantsch (07:35.69)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Always they haven’t changed no matter what the platform, right? S so that statistic I cited at the opening that nine out of ten you know, f feel like their agency is more likely to make them succeed, only four out of ten, but four yeah, four out of ten plan to reduce the relationship. So walk me through both of those numbers. I mean, how can they both be true at the same time?

Brian Gerstner (07:40.707)

yeah.

Brian Gerstner (07:56.502)

Well, so I think what it really looks at is just as I said, you know, the tide is moving out on certain types of work. So when we look at the nine out of ten as far as end clients, and that’s the specific statistic came out of the agency edge research through AMI. it is, you know, we’re still incredibly relevant. Clients know they need an agency, they need an expert, they need authority in a position and that, you know.

John Jantsch (08:14.966)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Gerstner (08:25.841)

it is more likely that their initiatives will will be successful if they have the right people at the table with them. You know, it’s just knowing that like we’re still incredibly relevant. Okay. But when you look at the certain end clients like decreasing their spend, you know, we’re all seeing it, whether it’s like producing brochures, writing content, you know, AI is doing it excessively well, you know, and for a lot of clients, good is enough for certain types of work.

John Jantsch (08:37.386)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:46.485)

Right.

John Jantsch (08:55.532)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Gerstner (08:55.951)

when I I bridge the two together, it is the fact that the agency can show up, provide strategy, provide greater, higher levels of confidence and judgment and direction. And with that in place and, you know, as an end client, access to a lot of these tools that are more affordable than ever before, they’re moving faster. So I look at that statistic and I say,

There are certain types of engagements that we’re used to doing and providing deliverables that are now commoditized that are absolutely we’re gonna lose we’re gonna lose ground on those. But the it’s the strategy work, it’s the judgment and direction that the nine out of ten comes from.

John Jantsch (09:36.012)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (09:40.61)

Yeah, yeah. Well, and that’s you know, I’ve been preaching the this line, strategy before tactics, for, you know, at least thirty years. And and I mean it’s you know, it it’s absolutely gonna be, I think, the only space left. In fact, one of the things I think has happened is is AI has actually opened up a marketing leadership gap. and I think really exposed it. It’s always been there with small to mid sized businesses, but I think AI is

really exposing the lack of leadership in marketing. And I think that I how do you feel agents I believe that agencies can rush into that gap, you know, and stop worrying about, you know, SEO tactics. but how do you get an agency that’s, you know, that’s got 20 people sitting around that their job is to like do reports and do do the stuff we give to clients and get them start thinking more about leaders. I know you didn’t research this, but but I’m curious what your thoughts are on

Brian Gerstner (10:37.823)

So there’s two thoughts and one is just very awakening. Like that agency you just described, the the truth is revenue is gonna make that decision for them. Right. and on the other side, I do believe that you know it is a lot about you know, the questions that your clients are gonna ask us. I can tell you over the past year or two, how our clients have started to engage us has been very different.

John Jantsch (10:42.134)

Yes.

John Jantsch (10:47.701)

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (11:07.628)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Gerstner (11:07.859)

You know, from you know, asking about deliverables and the more technical service offerings to showing up and going, How do we do this? Should we do this? And it is once again fundamentals, right? If we’re focused on our clients and we’re looking at the questions they’re answering and we understand the problems and pain that they’re having, naturally there should be a progression. If we’re stuck and focused on the deliverable, I mean, that is a core thing. Like if you’re not client focused or client centric, then you’re gonna you’re gonna miss that transition.

To some degree. but I think the decision’s gonna get made for you, good or bad.

John Jantsch (11:39.49)

You Yeah. You you identified another another segment you call the AI opportunity embracers and and we certainly are seeing that out there that people are rushing in saying, there’s money to be made in this new frontier. but I’m also seeing a lot of them already going, We can’t really get any clients just pitching that because they can do it themselves for twenty bucks a month, right?

Brian Gerstner (12:01.725)

yeah.

Brian Gerstner (12:05.653)

Well well, I mean, my agency is very heavily in this area also because we do a tremendous amount of development work and we do a tremendous amount of like work that is being affected by AI. So like in this, like we have we have a people problem. The the adoption is really difficult to really, you know, to get with people, to get people to truly know how to leverage it. And when we look at this particular segment, a lot of the problem is

John Jantsch (12:10.029)

Sure. Mm-hmm.

Brian Gerstner (12:35.199)

People are moving into AI aggressively because it is new, there is a lot of opportunity, and honestly, right now AI itself is enough of a buzzword that you can hang your hat on it. What I can tell you though, right exactly.

John Jantsch (12:47.277)

Sure. It’s like when social media came around. There were all these social media social media marketing agencies.

Brian Gerstner (12:52.521)

Yeah. From being in the business long enough, I can tell you that this opportun the the whole, you know, AI being your differentiator, like that is gonna disappear really quick. It’s already table stakes. when you look at it, end clients already understand that we’re using it. They just want us to do it responsibly. So this particular segment, the real the people who are chasing AI going, AI is the answer. there there is there is still plenty of opportunity in this area. The big concern is

John Jantsch (13:03.629)

Sure, sure.

John Jantsch (13:08.331)

Yep. Yep.

Brian Gerstner (13:23.061)

People are running really fast, but where are you going? You know, there there’s a reason the compass was invented before the clock. It’s because it’s more important to know where you’re going. So the big fear in this area is that you’re moving really fast and you’re gonna end up somewhere where there’s not going to be enough ground to live on.

John Jantsch (13:30.273)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:41.441)

Yeah, look at all the hundred thousand dollar stalled AI projects that a lot of corporations launched.

Brian Gerstner (13:45.781)

Yeah, we’ve had funny we we have our own graveyard. We have our own graveyard, but we’re learning from every one of it. I call this you know, this is definitely education.

John Jantsch (13:54.19)

So so what’s the research say about pricing? pricing models that you know, are clients saying, Hey, you need to do this for you need to charge me fifty percent less because you’re using AI to do it?

Brian Gerstner (14:07.893)

we’re not really seeing that. We’re seeing that not only are marketing budgets in general in the industry still increasing, but we are seeing that end clients are saying that they are willing to not only not decrease, but they’re willing to pay more for higher levels of expertise in a specific area. We have seen where like I think twenty-nine percent of end clients are saying that they expect to reduce fees because of AI.

John Jantsch (14:27.741)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brian Gerstner (14:36.575)

But once again, I’m bringing this back to that concept of commoditization, where certain types of deliverables absolutely do not have the pricing power that they used to. So if you do, just like the confident differentiators, if you have a level of authority, absolutely the end clients are more willing to pay for it more and more ever before. So when you look at that statistic about agencies themselves saying, like, what was it? Only 25% believe

John Jantsch (14:43.234)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (15:05.585)

AI strategy is a differentiating factor in selection, I’m saying like this isn’t gonna last forever, but hey agencies, here is a giant window. There’s a door open right now. And if you can aggressively take take advantage of this, it’s a once in a lifetime opportunity.

John Jantsch (15:17.735)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (15:26.743)

Well and I tell you one of the things we’ve seen o over the years is coming in the strategy door i is a far better relationship to with the client than coming in the vendor do this thing door. and I I think that so, you know, we we our our clients have been with us for many, many years and I think it has to do with the fact that we start them all with strategy. you know, as of before we ever start talking about fixing all the stuff they want fixed.

Brian Gerstner (15:52.471)

And I know like there’s a lot of agencies I work with just don’t feel comfortable, don’t feel like they have the pricing power or that at the end of the day they say, Hey, my clients don’t want it.

John Jantsch (15:57.526)

Right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:02.273)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Gerstner (16:04.924)

That’s hard. I I I I get it. I I get how that’s the conversation, but like there just as you said, like the agency that’s producing reports, like, you know, if you focus down, if you niche in, if you if you lean into an area, it is an investment. It’s hard. Growth is painful. But as you do that, you are able to show up in a more significant way. You can charge more, your clients will spend more. And there is still a lot of power in the generalist. I’m not saying like niching down doesn’t mean

John Jantsch (16:07.275)

Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (16:33.834)

You have to choose an industry. You can choose a region. You can tre choose an attitude. You can choose strategy. But then you do have something to hang your hat on. I think people get caught up in niching down means I have to work with dentists all the time. That I I I don’t believe that’s true at all. But it does mean that you have to have focus and you can’t be all over the place. The the general’s position will erode. and even those that are very successful, I think they’ll find out that like there there is

John Jantsch (16:40.962)

Right.

John Jantsch (16:47.275)

Yeah, yep, yep, yep. Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:54.625)

Yep. Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (17:02.612)

there is some commonality between who they’re getting business with, whether it’s like the size of the in the SMB, whether it’s the region, whether it’s the tactical approaches, there is typically a common thread in there that has allowed them to be successful that they’re maybe just not focusing on.

John Jantsch (17:07.33)

yeah.

John Jantsch (17:13.644)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:19.369)

Yeah, I mean we’ve done that before with clients, you know, make it well let’s show me, you know, show me your thousand clients and we whittle it down and like eighty percent of their business is coming from this twenty percent band. you know, happens all the time.

Brian Gerstner (17:30.506)

What? Yeah. You just don’t see it ’cause you’re so in it a lot of times.

John Jantsch (17:35.147)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we’ve talked about the the the the confident differentiators and and maybe the the outliers, the the opportunity seekers. Who what does the data show about these people that are like where do we go? I just feel pressure. I don’t know what direction to go.

Brian Gerstner (17:54.059)

Right. i it’s a hard place to be because obviously and I think when we look in that, like sixteen percent of that segment was very open about just like, you know, closing it down and moving on. a lot of it is because you know, to be in this industry you have to have like some some s significant moxie to show up every day. Like someone’s moving your cheese every day, every hour. And you know, for a lot of people that that’s why this industry is so exciting too. But

John Jantsch (18:05.899)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (18:13.719)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:22.711)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Gerstner (18:24.714)

This is, you know, where we’ve been used to like, you know, weathering the storm, whether it’s you know, the pandemic or the two thousand eight housing or you know, just the politics that are running through. this is not a storm. This is a new climate. So for those that have weathered many, many storms, I know there there are some people who are just like, you know, like I’m tired. ’cause it does there’s there’s a lot of investment.

John Jantsch (18:42.156)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:50.133)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Gerstner (18:54.622)

I I will have to say though, John, like, you know, as I’ve been talking to people, even like a year, year and a half ago, the conversation was a lot about are we relevant? Like with AI coming, who’s gonna need us? What are we gonna do? I will tell you just in the course of one year, the conversation has changed dramatically. We are relevant. I will tell you that right now. And so, you know, for all those folks, it’s like, you know, stick around, you know, follow the data, talk to peers, you know, you’ll

John Jantsch (19:03.819)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:11.917)

Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Gerstner (19:23.878)

And I I do think that you know once again we we just need to become acclimated. It is a new climate, you know. As we start to learn more and we start to get more comfortable, things get cleared, there’s less uncertainty than there was before. And for those folks, you know, the statistics just show that it’s a big change and it’s a difficult change. And but

John Jantsch (19:32.993)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Gerstner (19:49.738)

There’s still probably more opportunity than ever before if you can take the time to to see it.

John Jantsch (19:56.556)

Yeah. that that’s absolutely the message I’ve been trying to to give to folks as well, because I’ve I’m feeling it. the demand hasn’t slowed down at all. It’s just they’re asking different questions. exactly. Yeah, yeah. Well Brett

Brian Gerstner (20:07.146)

They really are. Yeah. And the the pressure you’re putting on your own team are very different. You know, it is you have to retrain your entire team a lot of times.

John Jantsch (20:13.484)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (20:17.183)

Yeah, you know that’s a I don’t want to go down too much of a rabbit hole here ’cause this could be a whole nother show. in that I think that’s one of the s that’s one of the challenges that a lot of agencies are are facing is the people that they attracted and hired and trained are are probably not as relevant for the work that needs to be done now. In a lot of cases, yeah.

Brian Gerstner (20:31.914)

Okay.

Brian Gerstner (20:36.086)

Right. Yeah, and one last statistic, but like even in this, I don’t have the exact numbers, but even though there’s been a tremendous amount of attrition, when we talk to agencies, hiring has become significantly harder. So think about that. There’s been a lot of attrition, the market is full of more people, but yet it’s even more difficult to hire.

John Jantsch (20:50.177)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (21:01.363)

Yeah, and I I told you we could go down a whole rabbit hole here. What we’ve experienced is that to be successful, you’re gonna have to hire you’re gonna have to hire a different you’re not gonna hire a doer. You’re gonna have to hire a strategic thinker who can actually become a leader in your organization because I think the doers, you know, we can outsource, right, Brian?

Brian Gerstner (21:05.137)

Okay. Well,

Brian Gerstner (21:23.924)

Yeah, I mean, yeah.

John Jantsch (21:28.173)

Exactly. So so I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there some place you’d invite people to to get the research? First off, I know you have that hosted and and then obviously find out more about white label IQ.

Brian Gerstner (21:41.771)

Yep. So absolutely go to agencycore.org. everything is completely ungated. You can download all the data, all the visualizations, all the studies, executive studies. It’s all there for everybody. No gating, no emails required. But you know, sign up and we’ll keep you informed. for us, you know, whitelik.com, absolutely. Also, Brian Gershner, look me up on LinkedIn, I’m pretty active.

John Jantsch (22:07.469)

Awesome. Well again, I appreciate you stopping by. Maybe we’ll run into you one of these days just up the highway there.

Brian Gerstner (22:12.692)

Right. Appreciate it, John.