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Transcript of How to Build a Business Around Referrals

Transcript of How to Build a Business Around Referrals written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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John Jantsch: This episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Klaviyo. Klaviyo is a platform that helps growth-focused eCommerce brands drive more sales with super-targeted, highly relevant email, Facebook and Instagram marketing.

John Jantsch: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Michael J. Maher. He is known as North America’s most referred real estate professional, but he’s doing a lot of other things these days. He’s also the author of 7L, The Seven Levels Of Communication: Go From Relationships to Referrals. So Michael, thanks for joining me.

Michael Maher: Absolutely. Fantastic, I’m an avid listener of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast and I’ve been an avid follower of yours for many, many years, from the referral flood days, no doubt.

John Jantsch: Early on and you had me on your podcast and we got to reminisce about some of those days as well, so I appreciate that.

Michael Maher: That’s right.

John Jantsch: So nobody needs to hear why referrals are so awesome any more, but let’s tell them anyway. Why is going for referrals, running a referral based business such a great way to build a business?

Michael Maher: Well there’s no sales involved. I think the biggest difficulty in business today is the sales process. The sales process is chase, chase, chase, and when you’re chased you have two options, you either flee or fight. And that’s what a lot of sales people are getting is they’re getting the people that want to fight them or they find that people just continue to flee and they’re told to follow up and nurture whatever you want to call it and they keep fleeing and they’re working on their scripts and dialogues and everything else until they can finally corner that person and they finally corner them, the person doesn’t have an out, so they kind of go, “Okay, I guess I’ll buy it or I’ll guess I’ll work with you.” And then the entire time that the product happens or the service happens that customer is trying to get out.

Michael Maher: And the fact of the matter is, is they have a way out because the sales person has probably over promised the entire chasing process and the only way to deliver after you over promise is to under deliver, which leads to a frustrated client, which also leads to no more referrals, which leads to you having to chase even more. And that’s the, we call that the cycle of discontent or the current chase cycle that a lot of salespeople are on. But on the other hand, if there’s a downward cycle or this kind of negative cycle, if you will, there’s this positive cycle and that’s the referral cycle. The referral cycle is you get a referral, you tell them the truth and I’m the nice thing is you don’t have to sell or convince or anything.

Michael Maher: You literally do almost the opposite of sales. You tell them the worst case scenario or the nuclear case scenario of what it might be during the process or during their use of the product. And then when they use the product or use your service, they’re wowed simply if the product works or simply if your service was satisfactory, you can just do your job and elicit a wow. And guess what, when you have under promised, anything you do is over delivery, they are wild. Well what do wild clients do? They refer you some more. So you have people to tell the truth to and then that leads to wild service, which leads to more referrals. And that is the referral cycle.

Michael Maher: So the referral cycle is shorter, it’s far easier, it’s far more friendly, it’s more efficient. And you can tell people the truth. So I think the biggest power of the referral cycle is that you are in your integrity. You never feel like you’re out of your integrity. You feel like, “You know what, I don’t have to go to work and be someone different. I can be who I am. A person of love, generosity and appreciation all the time.” And that’s the beauty of the referral business versus the chase or the sales business.

John Jantsch: So you spend a lot of time of course, showing people how to do this, the sort of physical part of it or the tactical part of it. But I’ll tell you the pushback I get a lot is that people are like, “Hey, you just do good work and if you do good work, people will talk about you.” I’m sure in the real estate business that’s very, very true, “So and so did a great job for me. So I talk about them.” I mean is it that simple or are there things that we need to be doing much more proactively than that?

Michael Maher: It has to be more proactive, you and I both know that. I mean satisfactory service is truly the expectation and the only reason people are going to talk about you is to go above their expectations. So you can do that two ways. Essentially you can lower their expectations and then produce at your normal level or you can over perform. You can do some kind of while during that transaction, during that process or with the product. Toms Shoes is an example, you don’t just get a pair of shoes, you get a pair of shoes and you get a certificate that shows that a pair of shoes have been donated to people who didn’t have shoes. And all of these above and beyond examples.

Michael Maher: For us in the real estate world, it was, we would reset their expectations. So we would tell them the nuclear case or worst case scenario and then when we did the transaction, many times it would not match up to the worst case scenario so they were happy. But then we took it to the next level because you talk about the core talk ability differentiation point. I totally butchered that actual title, but what I call, talk abouts. You have to have a talk about, and so what are they going to talk about? And in our case, we do a house warming party for every buyer who buys a home through us. So 45 to 60 sometimes even 90 days after they get into the home, we celebrate with their neighbors, their friends and family, the people that they work with and we have a housewarming party.

Michael Maher: Well the housewarming party became a talk about, they would talk about it, they’d spread the word on social media. They would go, “Oh my gosh, my realtor threw a housewarming party. I’ve never heard of” … and all the people commenting were, “I’ve never heard of a real estate agent doing a house warming party.” So you have to have talk abouts, you’ve got to give them these things to talk about.

John Jantsch: Here’s another, I’m just going to give you things that I hear all the time and I’ll let you riff on them. A lot of people know that, I mean, you can read countless blog posts that talk about, you’ve got to give and give before you get and just be a person of value and deliver value. And that’s great, I’m 100% behind that. But what if I don’t have anything to give right now? I mean I need business.

Michael Maher: Well here’s the thing. I do believe that you need to receive. I believe that generosity and appreciation are two sides of the same coin. I believe that we need to be a generous giver, but we also need to be an appreciative receiver. I mean people that come to me normally are generous givers, they’re pretty good about being generous givers. Where they typically aren’t great is at being appreciative receivers. They’re like an opportunity could literally hit them in the face and they would have their hand up or be blind to the opportunity. So we need to be in this state of generous giving and also being ready to be an appreciative receiver. I truly believe there’s two sides of the same coin, like inhaling, exhaling or flexing and relaxing, if you will. So it’s one of those where the big thing on giving is you have seven gifts of generosity, no matter what, so only one of those is money.

Michael Maher: And there’s seven Ts, I guess if people are taking notes on this real quickly, is the seven gifts of generosity all start with the letter T and one of them is thought. And the thing is, thought doesn’t cost you anything and it’s probably one of the most underutilized powers and gifts that we use. And that is you could think about someone, the power of prayer is well documented, but even we need to think about people, but we need to also take action on their behalf. That’s the power of a handwritten note, is the power of a handwritten note is not the paper or the ink or whatever it may be. It’s the fact that somebody thought about you when you weren’t with them and they took the time to take the action and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, this handwritten note is so wonderful.”

Michael Maher: It’s the thought that counts. And I will tell you that thought is a gift of generosity, that it is a value that you own and that you give to others. So thought plus action is a really big one. Now another thing is, the second part of this is talk. And talk is you can speak about others, you can champion others, you can refer others, you can talk to your friends about them, you can talk about them on a podcast. And talk is something that doesn’t cost you a dime and yet could really perform in big ways for you and for the person. I have a saying, it’s easy to champion a champion. And what that means is that when you, let’s say you’re at a networking group, or you’re at a meeting with a bunch of people and you champion the landscaper and you’re like, “Jeremy’s the best landscaper in the world. Jeremy does great. Jeremy’s fantastic. You’ve got to go to Jeremy for your landscaping needs.”

Michael Maher: Well, there’s something amazing that happens within the organization or within that group. And yeah, they’re like really impressed with Jeremy, but they’re also really impressed with you. And if you look at, okay, the group start to disengage and go different directions, the line for Jeremy is going to be two or three people deep, especially those that need landscaping. But the line to you, so for people who want to meet you, will be nine or 10 people deep. Well why is that? Well, the reason is because they’re thinking, either subconsciously or consciously, that if I get into relationship with Michael, Michael is likely to champion me and my business. And how do I know that? Because I just saw him do that with Jeremy. So you are more attractive by championing others and we call it, it’s easy to champion a champion.

Michael Maher: People will champion you and they will want to meet you, the more you champion other people. So guess what, talk is cheap, but in this case talk is valuable as well. And then the third one is talent. We have a talent, some people are their de facto IT person for their family or for whoever it may be. And you have a talent with whatever it may be, video games or turning on the computer or Google or research. Our main talent that we get paid for is just one of the many talents we have. So we have this ability to share with other people this talent and help them, whatever it may be, books or writing or journaling or meditating or whatever it may be. We have all these talents that we can help other people with.

Michael Maher: And some of those talents like selling real estate or negotiating, we can get paid for. So then the middle one is treasure and this is money. This is where you know what, you can give the gift of generosity of money. You can donate to a cause. You can pay for somebody’s product. You can pay for somebody’s service. And I will tell you, and where I’m at in life right now, I do use the money gift of generosity more than I used to before. Why is that? Well, I didn’t have money before, so I couldn’t use that, I couldn’t use that gift whatsoever because my money was quite scarce and sparse. So now the last three I believe are really where the rubber meets the road and this is where the most value within the seven gifts of generosity is truly exchanged.

Michael Maher: And that’s all a relationship is. A relationship is just a value exchange. That’s all it is. If you’re no longer getting value or they are no longer getting value, they are going to get out of the relationship. So the seven gifts of generosity needed to be tip of tongue and top of mind at all times because this is what it’s all about. This is being in relationship. So the last three are team and team is your network of people. You have a team of people who can help people. So we have an example within the generosity generation where somebody wanted to sell a 1920 something, a 1936 Mercedes and it’s like, “1936 Mercedes, I didn’t even know Mercedes was around in 1930.” But anyway, it was very unique, but he couldn’t sell it, couldn’t sell it on a … so we actually went through our market and said, “Hey listen, is there anybody out there that knows somebody that might be interested in this old Mercedes?”

Michael Maher: Well guess what? We were able to help find a buyer for that car. They got together and it didn’t cost me a dime, but there’s people who still talk about helping that person get that 1936 and having the person sell that 1936 Rolls Royce. But the thing is, it’s not just a car or whatever it may be. When you are meeting with someone, you have almost an infinite level of capacity to help the person across from you. It isn’t your capacity to help, but it is your team’s capacity to help, especially with social media. You could easily put on social media, “Hey listen, I’ve got somebody with a 1936 Mercedes who needs to sell. Who do you know that might be interested?”

Michael Maher: So we can help people in a very big way with our team and also the new ABC, the old ABC used to be, always be closing and boy isn’t it fun when somebody tries to close you? But in today’s world it’s, always be connecting, always be connecting. And that’s the power of the team is when you connect to others, you all three, win. So the two people that connect win but you also win from connecting those two people. So team is a very valuable one and that’s your super connectors and your influential people, they tend to be phenomenal at using this gift of generosity of team.

John Jantsch: I want to remind you that this episode is brought to you by Klaviyo. Klaviyo helps you build meaningful customer relationships by listening and understanding cues from your customers. And this allows you to easily turn that information into valuable marketing messages. There’s powerful segmentation, email auto responders that are ready to go. Great reporting. You want to learn a little bit about the secret to building customer relationships, they’ve got a really fun series called Klaviyo’s Beyond Black Friday. It’s a docu series, a lot of fun, quick lessons, just head on over to klaviyo.com/beyondBF, beyond black Friday.

Michael Maher: And then you’ve got the last two. Teach is the next one and I have to tell you, this is one of my favorite ones because I read a lot, I accumulate a lot of knowledge and I’ve accumulated a lot of wisdom, mostly through mistakes, errors and failures, but I’ve accumulated and so I can pass on and help others. And that’s what I hope people get from my podcast and this podcast is, I hope you take one thing from this podcast and you share it with another person, you teach them. And the power of teaching is that when one person teaches another, two people are learning, they’re learning new information, but you’re learning how to communicate that information. And what’s funny is as soon as you communicate that information, it’s amazing how much more accountable you become to it. But you also become a better student by being a teacher because everything you learn, you start to think about, “How would I share this? How would I teach this?”

Michael Maher: Well, you internalize it and you become a more powerful learner by being a teacher as well. And then the last one, some people might’ve guessed what’s the last gift of generosity, you might have guessed that already. But the the seventh T is time and it’s time. Time is a … and sometimes it just means sitting next to someone or being with someone. And I will tell you that time is something that I used early on in my career to build great … I just listened and I was just there and it was very valuable. But it is one of those things that later on in life, I have to tell you that I do trade treasure for time a lot more now than I used to. But that’s the beauty of having seven gifts of generosity is you can use all seven of those in different ways, however necessary and how it best helps the recipient. So those are the seven Ts of generosity and you have a lot to give that doesn’t include money and I truly encourage you to get out and do it.

John Jantsch: Yeah. And as you pointed out, I think those evolve in terms of how you use them and when you use them. I’m going to give you another objection that I hear a lot of times is, what if my business is one that people won’t necessarily talk about, they love me, but they don’t want to talk about the therapy that they’re going through for that drinking problem or something. And what if I’m in one of those kind of businesses and I get that question quite often. You’ve probably heard it before too.

Michael Maher: Yeah. So you’re not going to go direct to the consumer, you’re going to … I mean, the fact of the matter is, someone knows someone. So it’s like, who is the someone who knows the someone you would get to? You’re right, I’m not going to sit around at a party and talk about the counseling I’ve been getting on drinking or whatever it may be. But who would I tell? And that would be a doctor or a counselor or a psychologist or a pastor or a priest. And all of a sudden … and actually those businesses can build bigger, stronger networks because the people are going to them and you’re not necessarily … the problem is too many people go direct to a consumer and they’re trying to get clients. And what we should be doing is we should be going to people and trying to get referral sources.

Michael Maher: We need to quit looking at people as potential clients and we need to start looking at people as potential lifelong referral sources. And I will tell you that when you build these ambassador, what we call ambassador level relationships, all of a sudden you’re a better friend. You’re a better relationship, you’re a better partner because you have this thought, “Wow, this is lifelong, this is more than just a client where I’m going to take their money and exchange it for a product or a service.” And that’s the thing. The power of this is, you build those … I have a gal in Memphis, Tennessee. She tends to work with divorced couples. Well there’s another secret that people don’t disclose, but she has about 25 divorce attorneys that refer her over a hundred transactions a year and she takes care of them very discretely. She is very unemotional as part of her nature and she also networks with judges who also know divorce attorneys. So her network is much smaller but far more impactful because she has a smaller group of people to build that network with.

John Jantsch: Yeah. I often tell people, a lot of people think immediately about their customers that can refer to them and a great customer might know four or five people they can refer to you, but that law firm or other strategic partner, a lot of times they might have 500 people that they could refer you to. So I love that idea of working kind of a strategic network. But I think one of the real keys is that a lot of times people try to go out and find those who can send me business kind of resources. And I’ve always felt like if you build a network of kind of best of class providers who can maybe help your customers in other ways, I always feel like that’s such a better way to think about building a strategic partner network.

Michael Maher: That’s right. That’s like a Rita in Memphis is, she’s known as kind of that divorce house queen, she takes care of the house when you’re having a divorce, while her network knows that. So people discreetly go to her, well they don’t have a divorce attorney. So what does she do? She reverse refers that right back to her divorce attorneys. And it’s a great relationship. The value exchange is almost equal in that regard. So the other thing too that I have to throw in here is the concept of events. I help business owners grow and develop event-based businesses built on a foundation of love, generosity and appreciation. That’s what I do. That’s how powerful events are or to … I believe that events are the ultimate talk about.

Michael Maher: So if that person is maybe in a … so your events would not be for consumers necessarily, your events could be for divorce attorneys or whatever it may be, doctors, counselors, psychologist and that kind of thing. And the event isn’t going to be you talking about real estate, the event is going to be something that’s current for their field. The changes in laws of divorce or the changes in laws of whatever it may be. So having events for that type of … and so you can give them value from the sense of an event and something that’s educational, entertaining and charitable. And I just have to throw that out because an event becomes very talk about able. It’s a talk about. In fact, I think an event is the ultimate talk about.

John Jantsch: Yeah. And I think you can be very liberal with what event means. I mean, I for years would preach that, take your six best customers to lunch together so that they actually get to meet each other. That’s an event. It doesn’t have to be this grand ballroom kind of thing.

Michael Maher: No, no events, I mean, well in fact the grand ballroom may be counterproductive to your objectives. So yeah, I mean think … 7L is written from a very heavy one to one relationship type of, the subtitles go from relationships to referrals. So it’s very one to one oriented. Whereas, the next book I need to write is a very one to many approach. And I unfortunately in 7L, I just ran out of room to really dive deep into the one to many of my business. But that is kind of one of my regrets about 7L is that I didn’t talk, I do have the house warming party in there and I do talk about it and that kind of thing. But I didn’t go into the big picture around events and there you go. Need another book, I guess.

John Jantsch: Speaking with Michael Maher, he’s the author of Seven Levels Of Communication. Go from relationships to referrals. So Michael, where can people find out, obviously your books available anywhere but where can they find out more about you and maybe dive into some of your training?

Michael Maher: So Referco, R-E-F-E-R-C-O .com. So check us out at referco.com. They can get the book at, thebookonreferals.com. No offense to Referral Engine, if they haven’t read that yet, what the heck are they doing? So go get Referral Engine and the Duct Tape Marketing and then get 7L.

Michael Maher: But that’s the great thing about this is the influence you’ve had on me, I’ve kind of built this within the real estate industry and the lender arm and kind of branched out from there. And I know that we talked about it on Referrals podcast, but I’d be remiss if I didn’t say thank you here and live on the impact you made on me. We’re from the same place. Most people don’t know that, Shawnee Kansas area. And I went to a seminar you did, I won’t say how many years ago just because it’s going to age me, but I remember buying one of your very first products, that you were so early on that and way before people were doing info sales and things like that. And I bought a little book called Referral Flood and that was just, it was very handy. I referred to it often as I developed my referral business and took it from there. And thank you for being a part of that growth.

John Jantsch: Well, I appreciate that, but ideas are just that. I mean, take an action on them, which is what you did and built a tremendous business. So kudos to you for doing that. So thanks Michael. It was great catching up with you and hopefully we’ll see you soon out there on the road.

Michael Maher: Thanks John. Always great to have a conversation with you. And thank you for doing this podcast. You’re adding a ton of value to the world and I’m glad you’re doing it. Thank you.

Transcript of What All Businesses Need to Know About Website Design

Transcript of What All Businesses Need to Know About Website Design written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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John Jantsch: Hello. Welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Chris Martinez. He is the current CEO and co-founder of DUDE Agency, dudeagency.io. An outsourced web development firm in Tijuana. Mexico, so, Chris, thanks for joining me.

Chris Martinez: Thank you so much for having me.

John Jantsch: So let’s talk about websites in the big picture. For businesses, particularly small business, I have a lot of small business owner listeners, what’s the role of the website today? What’s its job?

Chris Martinez: I think that there’re several jobs, but overall, if you’re looking big picture, it’s got to be a revenue generator for you. It’s got to be a way that you can capture and then with some other software integrations, nurture leads and eventually convert those people into paying customers.

John Jantsch: I read a statistic the other day that said something along the lines of 82% of people that visit your website are, first of all, doing it for the first time, and secondly, won’t take any action that first visit. I mean if that statistic’s true and I think that we can all agree to some extent it is what does that implicate for somebody building or somebody using a website in their business?

Chris Martinez: I think it’s very, very accurate. I think it’s very accurate for the majority of people who have websites. I also think it’s reflective of just the world in general because the first time that you meet somebody you don’t really … If you were to walk into a store for a first time, you never knew who they were a lot of the times you don’t buy anything. People are trying to gather information and then once they have some information and they feel they can make an educated decision, that’s when they get further down into the funnel and they’re ready to make a buying decision.

John Jantsch: So with that in mind, if somebody comes to you and says, “I want a website,” and they don’t have any real ideas in mind, in your kind of checklist of how to design a site, are there some must-have elements that at least for today you would tell pretty much, obviously, different industries have some different things, but for the most part, are there some elements that you think need to exist in some way on every website?

Chris Martinez: So that’s kind of a loaded question and I’m going to give you a plug right now because it absolutely has to start with a strategy, right? You do need basic fundamentals of your message, identifying your market and then having some sort of offer. And then once you have those fundamentals in place and you have their overall strategy, then you can start going into the website and you can basically transfer all the things that you created as a part of the strategy to the website. So in terms of things that you absolutely want to have, I mean you have just a couple of seconds to capture somebody’s attention when they come to your website for the first time. So you absolutely need to be able to communicate to them what it is that you do, how you help them and what that person is supposed to do next.

Chris Martinez: And I’m kind of swiping that from Donald Miller, sorry. I almost a Dennis Miller. Donald Miller in StoryBrand because that’s a lot of what he says is like, “Passing the grunt test,” and so those are three elements and that’s more along the lines of copy. But in terms of layout and design, you absolutely want to have those three things above the fold, meaning before somebody has to scroll down a website, that’s what that visitor is going to see. And then a call to action, a primary call to action and then a secondary call to action.

Chris Martinez: And then as you scroll through the other things that we recommend are like testimonials and social proof. A very, very simple explanation of how you help a client go from point A to point B, so ideally it shows your three or four-step system. And so that’s basically it. I also like a simple thing is images, right? You want images that show real people. So real images are always going to outperform stock images and you want to show images of people who look and seem like your ideal client.

John Jantsch: So over the years, design trends seem to come and go. So homepages are very small, they had a lot of navigation, options on them, and essentially it was like an index page. That’s what we actually called them, right? And so the goal was somebody, “Here’s every option,” like a table of contents, “go find what you’re looking for.” Today, it seems like we have the long scrolling kind of journey page. You see times when people use a lot of stock photos and now it seems like we’re into a lot of illustrations that are very light and airy and a lot of white space. How do you manage as a design firm? How do you manage the fact that or balance maybe the fact that that people want to kind of see … They want their site to look updated, but then we’re jumping on one trend to the next, I mean, is there some sort of balance or I guess another way to ask that is are there trends that are driving your design today?

Chris Martinez: Yeah, design definitely matters. It’s really hard to pinpoint if you do X, Y, and Z, you’re going to hit the ball out of the park every single time. Every business is a little different. Every industry is a little bit different. Design does matter. But what matters most is your ability to convey how you help people. So let’s look at the flip side of one of the most ugly websites in the world that crushes it, Craigslist. Now, everybody has used Craigslist for the most part, and if you’ve never heard of Craigslist, please go type in craigslist.com or.org and look at it. It’s the ugliest, most simple website ever. But it absolutely conveys what it is what they do and it helps people get what they’re looking for. So at the end of the day, you do have to show people how you help them, whether that be through a video or actual text or even like a podcast interview. And that is what really is going to help you to generate more leads and sales.

Chris Martinez: And then the other thing that you want to think about is how are people coming to your website? So maybe they heard you on a podcast interview and they’re like, “Oh, my God, the story that John just told is amazing. I’m really, really excited.” So when that person comes to your website, they’re already a little bit further down in the funnel so the design might be different or the impact that the design has might be different based on where that person is coming from. If they heard you from Yelp, it’s a different story. If it’s the first time that they’ve ever heard you because they Googled you and your name popped up for a marketing agency, then that person’s going to be at a different stage. And so design matters, but there’re all these other things that you need to take into consideration as well.

John Jantsch: So that leads me right to my next question. I think there was a time when people would say, “Let’s go get a website.,” as it was kind of a separate element of everything else they were doing. They had all their other channels and I think a lot of websites were designed that way. I remember, in the early days, people would have sites, they wouldn’t have their logos on them, they would be different colors. I mean, it was like nobody actually talked to anybody else at the business when they designed the site. But today, I mean it’s clear that you can’t have a useful website without a ton of content. You can’t have probably a useful website from a marketing standpoint without considering search engine optimization even in the design phase. I mean, so how do you balance design content and SEO? Because I think they almost have to be done together, don’t they?

Chris Martinez: Yeah. So the easy answer is to hire somebody who knows what they’re doing. Because if you’re a business owner, it’s very, very difficult for you to be able to implement all these things yourself in addition to running your own business. But everything does need to work together and it needs to be congruent in conveying your message. So for design, for example, I’m not a designer. We have a lot of designers here and I’ve hired many of them, amazing ones. And so there’s a thing called color theory and basically, color theory is that different colors convey different emotions. So depending on who your client is or company that you have in your value proposition, you want to have certain colors that reflect and convey emotions to that perspective visitor.

Chris Martinez: In terms of copy, I mean, copy is unbelievably important because people are going to read what’s on the page and that’s one of the ways that they’re going to determine whether or not you can help them or not. And then in terms of development, designers can design amazing things or you might have some concepts in your brain as to how you want things to function on the website, and a developer has to come in and be actually able to make those things come to reality on a website. And then from the marketing team, “How are we going to drive traffic? How are we going to optimize things and basically, get the most leads that we possibly can and making tweaks and changes as we go along the way?”

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John Jantsch: Okay, so we’ve talked a lot about the importance, the overarching importance of a website, and so I think that puts a lot of pressure on getting it done. So you actually you have a certain model for working with business owners and you work with a lot of agencies. You’re a partner of Duct Tape Marketing. Let’s just kind of briefly define what are kind of the options out there for somebody trying to get a website built? So they realize maybe they’re starting a new business and so they’re starting from scratch. What are the many options that they have available to get a website built?

Chris Martinez: I mean, I like to say that there’re really only three options. You can do it yourself, you can hire an in-house team to do it or you can outsource it and basically contract an agency or your local web development company to be able to build that for you. And most people when they’re starting out, they opt for option one, which is doing it themselves or hiring a company to be able to do it for them.

John Jantsch: Well, and really over time, it’s gotten easier. I mean, you’ve got WordPress as a core, CMS and there’re lots of themes and there’re lots of page builders, so in a lot of ways getting it done, I mean just physically getting it done has gotten a lot easier. But again, I think the question comes down to getting it done well is one consideration. And the other consideration for a lot of business owners is, is that a good use of your time? I mean, I know I used to actually put together WordPress websites and I mean, you can go down a black hole and two days have passed and you haven’t eaten, you haven’t drank any water. I mean, if the site’s done, but maybe that wasn’t a good use of your last two days. So I’d like to give you an opportunity to kind of explain your model at DUDE Agency because I think it’s a bit of a hybrid.

Chris Martinez: Yeah. So we work with digital agencies. So those companies that are building out the websites, they’re typically very, very good at the strategy and they’re very good at selling, so they work with the local businesses and they come up with this overall plan. And then where they struggle is they have a hard time in the operations and actually getting these projects completed on time and on budget. And that’s basically where we come in and we give the agencies, the people as well as the processes so that they can take on more projects and get these projects done profitably. And so our process is basically, we run a subscription-based model. We have a team of people, my company’s like you mentioned in the beginning of the show, our company is actually located in Tijuana, Mexico, which nobody ever thinks of when it comes to web design and development. And when most people think of Tijuana, they’re thinking of other things that we won’t talk about, but we all know what they are.

Chris Martinez: So yeah. So we give these agencies a team of people to help them set up and implement. So the strategy’s already created, the instructions are given to us and then we’re able to build everything out and any tweaks and changes that need to be done we have our team here in Tijuana to be able to help get all those things done. And one thing I do want to mention is that a website is never finished. It’s always a work in progress, not just like fixing tweaks and changes. Actually on my own website yesterday, for some reason a button was showing really, really strange on the website.

Chris Martinez: So I sent a little a support request over to my team and I said, “Hey guys, can you fix this?” And they were able to fix it really right away. Those little things happen all the time. But on a bigger scale, once you start driving more people to the website and you start collecting data because that’s another function of a website. This website that I should’ve mentioned is it’s a data collection center. So once you start to collect data, then you can make updates and changes to the site to help improve what we call conversion, getting more leads.

Chris Martinez: So maybe your offer that you had up there for the free consultation is just bombing and so you want to change it. And so maybe instead of free consultation you change the verbiage and it could be meet your new consultant, or maybe you change it all together and it’s like download an eBook and then it goes into something else after that, after you’ve built a little trust with that perspective visitor. So all those tweaks and changes are gathered by an agency and then interpreted into, “Hey, this is what we need to do to optimize,” and optimization is always, it’s always ongoing so it never really stops. And so all those support tasks, technical and design-related, those are the things that we help agencies with.

John Jantsch: And you mentioned a support ticket. And one of the things that I think I is, in my experience, I’ve worked with a lot of business owners and we’ve come into websites that in various different ways and some needed a total overhaul, some needed new content, some had been around forever and they were on this old platform. And I mean it didn’t ever seem like two of them are alike. How have you been able to streamline the process or actually create process that has allowed you to really move pretty rapidly through what sometimes can be a clumsy process?

Chris Martinez: Yeah, this is one of the things that I nerd out on and that I really, really get excited about that most people are like, “God, get this away from me,” But it’s like standard operating procedures, right? And being able to see, “Okay, these things might all look different, but how can we identify what’s similar within all of them so that we can create standards and processes for that?” So one of the things is standardizing your onboarding process. So the way that you’re collecting information from the customer, and this actually can apply to any business.

Chris Martinez: If you have a new client let’s standardize the way that we’re collecting all the information that we need so that we can start implementing the solution. I mean I’m talking about scripting it out, asking the same questions, inputting the information the exact same way with every single client and new client project. And then once that gets conveyed over to whoever’s going to start that implementation process, having that person do that process the same way every single time. And basically, just breaking down all those things into very, very small, manageable steps.

John Jantsch: So I think process is great, but how do you also fight the inevitable client or two clients that say, “Well, we just want to do it this way. I mean this is how we’ve always done it.” And then you don’t want to lose the business so you bend a little and next thing you know you’ve got 10 different variations of the process. Have you been able to wrangle that in?

Chris Martinez: Yes, and I believe that that starts in the prospecting and sales conversation. So when you work with somebody, you want to establish yourself as the expert. I’ve torn both of my Achilles, believe it or not, and so I’ve had two very, very different experiences. The first time I tore my Achilles on my left leg, I had absolutely no idea what that process was like. I didn’t know that there were different doctors with different skill sets. I didn’t know that there were different procedures. I didn’t know that there were different ways to rehab it. So I went into the first guy and it was a disaster. I mean, I play soccer, I’ve played soccer my whole life and my recovery with that was over two years. It was horrible.

Chris Martinez: The second time I did it, I went into the doctor knowing exactly what I wanted and I told the doctor, “Hey, I want this type of procedure,” and then he said, “Perfect. I understand exactly what you’re looking for. We’re going to do this, this, this and this and this and we’ll have you up and walking again within 10 weeks,” and I was like, “This is fantastic.” Now, I did not question the second doctor’s procedures at all because he completely understood what I was looking for and he had the social proof to back it up that he could give me the results. He could have told me to eat a can of lima beans every single day and I would have done it because I had that much respect for his expertise. And he had the proof. On his walls, he had all these pictures of professional soccer players that he had worked with.

Chris Martinez: And so that’s the type of relationship that you want to establish with your new client even before they become a client. So that then they know that you’re the expert and they’re essentially hiring you because of your expertise. And the big thing with clients is that in many ways they want to be told what to do, but they just want to feel like they’re a part of the process. Nobody wants to feel they’re there having information jammed down their throat. And so you could actually build that into your onboarding process by asking them, “Hey, so when we initially spoke, you said you’re looking for this, this, and this. Tell me a little bit more about that.”

Chris Martinez: And then once they give that to you, now they feel like they’re giving you information. You might actually disregard everything that they say, but still, they feel like they’re a part of this process. And now as you move into the next stage, you can basically deliver your solution that you know is going to work and then also say, “Hey, and this is how we integrated in your recommendations or your requests.” and now they feel like this is a teamwork type of project.

John Jantsch: Yeah. And I’ve always contended that you get ideal clients by teaching them how to be ideal. And if you have a process that you know is going to deliver value, that if they adhere to it, then I think you can get pretty confident about saying, “No, we know this is good for you.” And I think you’re right. I think, if we don’t guide clients they just assume that it’s up to them, to design the process, and so I wholeheartedly agree. So, Chris, where can people out more about you and your work at DUDE Agency?

Chris Martinez: Yeah, so you can go to the website at dudeagency.io and then we’re also on Facebook, facebook.com/dudeagency and then Instagram dudeagency.io and then also on YouTube too. So we have a lot of really cool videos, fun as well as educational and stuff. And then we also have our podcasts on our dudeagency.io website, and I do know a certain somebody who is going to be on that very, very soon, so it’s a great, great listen. Yeah.

John Jantsch: Awesome. Yeah. Thanks, Chris. And, of course, we’re going to see you at the Duct Tape Marketing Consultant Network Summit in October and Savannah. Yeah.

Chris Martinez: I cannot wait. Cannot wait.

John Jantsch: Yeah. Looking forward to it. So thanks for stopping by and we’ll see you soon.

Building a Business Your Team and Customers Love

Building a Business Your Team and Customers Love written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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John Jantsch: This episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Klaviyo. Klaviyo is a platform that helps growth-focused eCommerce brands drive more sales with super-targeted, highly relevant email, Facebook and Instagram marketing.

John Jantsch: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Steve Farber. He is the founder and CEO of the Extreme Leadership Institute. And he’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today, Love is Just Damn Good Business: Do What You Love in the Service of People Who Love What You Do. So Steve, welcome to the show.

Steve Farber: Thanks, John. It’s great to be here with you.

John Jantsch: So there’s been a lot written over the years about this idea of do what you love. And actually I think one of the great distinctions that you have added to this is in the service of people who love what you do. And I think a lot of people get that equation wrong.

Steve Farber: Yeah, I think you’re right. Do what you love is, it’s a nice to have, right? And we all aspire to that, I would guess. I don’t think there’s many human beings that would say, “Nah, I’m really not interested in that.” But this whole notion of that’s all it takes, that’s the end of the story, if you can reach that everything is taken care of, is really not accurate. So for example, if all I’m doing is what I love, right? That’s it. And I don’t care about the impact of what that is on anybody else, as long as I’m doing what I love. That’s just another way of saying narcissism. So you know, doing what you love is important, but for what purpose and toward what end. So do what you love in the service of people who love what you do, I believe really creates the full context for that. So yes, I’m doing what I love, but I’m using that, I’m tapping into that, I’m harnessing that in order to give great value to you. To you, my colleague, to you, my employee, to you, my customer. So yes, I’m doing what I love, but I’m using that to give great value to you. And if I do that to its fullest, what’s going to happen is you’re going to reciprocate, you’re going to love me in return. And that’s where our great customers come from, among other things.

John Jantsch: Yeah. I can think of half a dozen things that I love to do that no one would pay me for. But one of the things that I think is missed, and I think maybe I want to pull this out of you a little bit because over the years what I’ve experienced is that it’s almost cyclical. You’re going to love your… If you’re doing something for people who love what you do, it’s going to increase you’re loving what you do. And think that a lot of people… You know, I tell people all the time that are looking for, how do I find that thing I love? I tell people all the time, “Get good at something and I bet you love it.” And I think it’s the same way here. Get good at serving some ideal client delivering tons of value and it’s actually going to increase how you love your business.

Steve Farber: Yeah, I think it’s a really important point. You know, we like to kind of sort things out and to make them into a nice, neat, linear kind of a formula or a process and it’s very organic, right? So, like you said, if I’m doing work that I’m not particularly fond of, right? But I’ve been doing it for a while and I’ve gotten really good at it. And then I start to notice that, well, you know, I really enjoy being good at this and I like the impact that it’s having on people. And maybe I’ve made some great relationships at work and maybe I get letters from my customers or clients telling me what kind of difference I’ve made in their lives. And then pretty soon as it starts to dawn on me, you know what? I really do… At first, maybe it’s, I’m rather fond of this. And over time it can become more of a passion, right?

John Jantsch: So I’m sure you have to defend this all the time, if you’re going to put love in the title of a business book that you know loves this kind of soft thing. I’ve actually experienced it to be really hard, but I don’t think you’re talking about the greeting card kind of love are you?

Steve Farber: No, I’m not talking about love as a sentiment, but more like love as a practice in a discipline, right? So saying the words is easy, writing the card is nice and it makes people feel good to get to get a nice card, and I think that’s something we should all do. But in business it’s not simply about going through gestures like that. It’s about really, I like to call it, operationalizing love as a business practice. So what we have to answer is what does that look like? What does love look like in our business? Or what should it look like? If I want to create an environment, for example, that people love working in because I understand that people that love working here are going to do better work and they’re going to attract other people like them. They’re going to be my best recruiters.

Steve Farber: And I’m going to attract and retain the best possible talent, right? If I want to create that kind of environment that I believe we all should, then I’ve got to ask the question, what do I need to do differently to show the people that work with me, for me and around me, that I love them? And that I appreciate they’re working here and that I value their contribution. What do I have to do in terms of how I engage them in making decisions and the physical environment and our policies and procedures. It filters into all of that. So you’re right, love is not soft, it is hard and it takes discipline and it takes practice. And yeah, I suppose there’s a bit of a risk in slapping it right there on the front cover of a book. But, you know, that’s the… I’ve been doing this for 30 years, John, this is the conclusion that I’ve come to, it’s inescapable. It’s inescapable. So why not just put it out there and sound the trumpets, et cetera.

John Jantsch: Yeah. And I’m on board, I’ve been saying it for 30 years as well. However, probably like you, I remember it was till about 15 years ago that you didn’t get a lot of eye rolls still, even with business people, hardcore business people that thought, you know, show me the money, show me the numbers on this kind of stuff. But I’m finding more and more people and maybe it’s a symptom of the fact that there seems to be no division between work and play and family. And it’s like, it’s all kind of run together today. And do you feel like that dynamic has actually made it easier for people to accept this idea of something that maybe was seen as, “Oh no, I love my family and I love my church and my…” That kind of stuff that was over there. But now I cross over the door into the business and I’m a different person and it seems like that’s gone away a little, hasn’t it?

Steve Farber: Yeah, I think it has. I think we’re progressing along those lines. And having said that, for your more mature listeners who may remember Tom Peters, and I wish that everybody would, but the younger generation doesn’t know him as well. I was vice president of Tom’s company back in the ’90s, from ’94 to 2000. So Tom Peter’s is arguably one of the greatest management thinkers of our day. And we were talking about this stuff back then in the early and the mid-’90s. That people want to do meaningful work and they want to love their work and we should create an environment that people can really do incredible things. And so the concept is nothing new but then using the word love overtly out front as a challenge to people, that’s still a little bit new.

Steve Farber: So what I’ve found is what is… I think you and I have experienced the same thing. There is very little eye-rolling that happens in response to this when it’s put in the right context, all right? I mean if I were to come out on stage in one of my keynotes and say, “Listen man, you know, the solution is all you need is love. Just, just love everybody and let’s, let’s all be happy all the time.” It would empty the room, but that’s not what this is. So, the argument, if that’s the right word, is our competitive advantage comes from having our customers and clients love what we do for them. That’s it. I mean, we should all know that by now. Anything short of that, there’s no loyalty. Right?

Steve Farber: So then let’s back it up one more step. The only way to really create that kind of experience for customers in a meaningful and sustainable way over time is to create a culture or an environment or a team or a company that people love working in. And I can’t do that. As a leader, as an entrepreneur, as a business person, as a colleague, I can’t create or contribute to that kind of culture that people love working in, unless I love this, the team, the company, the values we stand for, the customers that we’re serving, myself first.

John Jantsch: Yeah. And like so many things related to love. I mean it’s pretty hard to fake it. You know, you’ve got some great case studies of companies that have shown ROI, shown proven results from taking this point of view. But I’m sure you’ve also worked with or talked with organizations that are, “Yeah, we’re on board. You’re right. This makes sense. Everybody’s going to love our company now.” So how do you actually do that? As opposed to just having a meeting about it once a quarter.

Steve Farber: Yeah. So that’s the thing. It is about doing it, not having done it or having talked about it at a meeting and checking it off of your list. That’s what I mean when I say it’s a discipline and a practice. Right? So really what it starts with though, I believe it does start with laying the expectation out there, right? We get to say to your team, we want to create an experience that our customers are going to love, is a very different challenge from saying we want to improve customer service, right? So, if you’re on my team or brainstorming together and I say to the team, Hey, how can we better show our customers that we love them? We’re going to get a different quality of idea then if we say, how do we improve customer service?

Steve Farber: So the languaging is important, but it’s just the start, right? So then the question is, well, if that’s really what we want… So if you want to create an environment that people love working in, for all the reasons we just talked about, then what should that look like in the way that we do business, in the way that we contribute to this culture, in all of the nuts and bolts and the very fabric of the way that we do business. And that’s something that we need to work on consistently over time. It’s not something that you’ll slap the copy of love is just damn good business on everybody’s desk and say, read it and voila. You know, we’re all a bunch of a… You know, now we’re all driving around in Volkswagen bugs and beetles and you know… That is not what this is, it takes practice and discipline over time. And when I find really interesting about this, John, is that our collective expectation as business people, and I’ve seen this in in North America, I’ve seen it around the world, our expectation is that people see that love has no place at work.

Steve Farber: Yet. And I can’t prove this scientifically, but anecdotally I will tell you that most people that I talk to and work with, they already get this. They already knew this. They just thought that maybe something was wrong with them, right? They already had this impulse and this idea and this kind of tendency, but they’ve been conditioned to believe that it has no place at work. So we’ve got this weird kind of dynamic going on that everybody thinks that everybody’s going to be resistant to this idea, but really very few people are. I mean there are certainly are some and there are always going to be some people that say, “You know what? This is not going to happen in our business. I pay people and they do their job and that’s it.” And that’s cool. That’s cool, I’m just not going to end up working with those people most likely. I’m not in the business of convincing anybody of anything.

John Jantsch: Yeah, I think it’s going to be people who love what you do, right?

Steve Farber: Yeah, I think. So really, I’m not in the business of convincing anybody, but I am in the business of confirming what a lot of people already know and just haven’t known what to do with it.

John Jantsch: I want to remind you that this episode is brought to you by Klaviyo. Klaviyo helps you build meaningful customer relationships by listening and understanding cues from your customers. And this allows you to easily turn that information into valuable marketing messages. There’s powerful segmentation, email autoresponders that are ready to go, great reporting. You want to learn a little bit about the secret to building customer relationships, they’ve got a really fun series called Klaviyo’s Beyond Black Friday. It’s a docuseries, a lot of fun, quick lessons, just head on over to klaviyo.com/beyondBF, beyond Black Friday.

John Jantsch: So you have a bit of a model that you call LEAP, as kind of the pillars of this. And maybe briefly you could, L-E-A-P, tell us what those stand for. But then I’d like you to kind of come back and say, okay, if I’ve got a successful remodeling business, for example, a local business, how do I bring LEAP into play now? So first unpack LEAP and then let’s go into kind of how that would work in a real business.

Steve Farber: Sure. And by the way, you know this whole model is built on observations of real business. So, this was not created in an ivory tower, saying, well what sounds nice and that people would buy, right? This is observation, trying to encapsulate what I’ve learned in 30 years of doing this work. But LEAP, it’s the roadmap or the framework, it stands for love, that’s the first foundational element to this, energy, audacity and proof. Love, energy, audacity and proof. I first wrote about this model in my first book called The Radical Leap, which came out in its first edition way back in 2004. So this model has been out there for quite some time, lots of companies and individuals have been using it to great success in their business. So there’s an action element to all this.

Steve Farber: So if I take love, energy, audacity, and proof and put it into an action phrase, it’s cultivate love, generate energy, inspire audacity, and provide proof. So love is what we’ve been talking about here so far. It’s really the foundation for this whole thing. Energy is the juice, the enthusiasm, the engagement that we bring to bear on everything that we do. Audacity is a pretty highly charged word and I define it as a bold and blatant disregard for normal constraints in order to change things for the better. So it’s not think outside the box, it’s more like what box? Right? And then finally, proof is everything from the results that we get… So, you know, as business people, our proof is largely in the bottom line, certainly. But proof also has a personal element to it, am I proving that I mean what I say and I’m not just saying it. I mean what I say and I prove that through the consistency and congruency between my words and my actions. I say something, you see me do it. It’s the old walk your talk, practice what you preach, lead by example, kind of a thing, right?

Steve Farber: So love, energy, audacity, and proof. So in a business like a remodeling business or any professional services company or any fortune 100 company for that matter. The question is whatever it is that you are working on, so if it’s the business as a whole or a particular project, can I cultivate the love for this project, idea, business, et cetera? Can I generate if… Let me think of it this way, if I can cultivate the love for it, generate the energy necessary in order to get that done, inspire myself and others to be audacious in this pursuit with generating big ideas and taking bold action, and provide proof along the way that I’m making progress, whatever it is that I’m trying to do, I have a better chance of succeeding in it. Right?

John Jantsch: Absolutely. I will tell you by observation, I’ve worked with thousands of businesses and increasingly this idea of love and energy and even proof, I think make a lot of sense to anybody who’s trying to run a business this way. The one that really struck me is I see very little people thinking, at least proactively, about the potential impact their business is having on the world. In some, occasionally after the fact, “Wow, we didn’t mean to, but we sure helped a lot of people.” You know? It seems like. And I think that… Well, again, this is just personal bias, I think that idea for a lot of existing businesses probably has more potential than any component of this because I think it’s so radically different than how most operate.

Steve Farber: Yeah. So I think that varies from company to company for sure. But just to give you a little confirmation of your instinct there, John, I did a survey… This has been maybe at least five years ago now. I just went out to my list and most folks are at least relatively familiar with that LEAP framework. And I said of these four, love, energy, audacity, and proof, what do you feel you need the most help with? And audacity came out number one, by a factor of like three to one. And I think… So there’s a lot to, as we like to say nowadays, unpack there, but audacity involves risk, right? It’s challenging the norms, it’s going beyond the status quo. And risk by definition is a scary thing. If it didn’t feel scary, we wouldn’t feel like we’re taking a risk.

Steve Farber: I mean, a risk means there’s no guarantee of a positive outcome and that scares us. Right? And the only way to really have a huge impact and be innovative and be a market leader is to take risks. Again, we know it intellectually, every business book that’s ever been written tells us that we need to do that. But there’s a difference between the intellectual understanding and the actual experience of it, right? So the connection there is, if I really love this idea, I’m much more likely to take a risk in order to carry it out. So there’s a very strong connection. You know, love and fear are kind of two sides of the same coin here, love is the motivation that gets me to step up and the fear associated with audacity is what the experience feels like and kind of some of the things that I need to do.

Steve Farber: So if you expand that to its fullest, the most audacious thing that we can do, as business people and as individuals, is to strive to change the world for the better. To have that impact that you were just talking about. And a lot of companies don’t… If I’m going to remodel somebody’s kitchen, for example, I’m not thinking about changing the world. I’m thinking about all the stuff that I’ve got to get done, hopefully, on time and within the budget. Right? And if we could do that, man, that’s really something.

John Jantsch: Well, that’s proof. That’s what I mean. Yeah. That’s proof that we do [crosstalk 00:20:05]-

Steve Farber: And very important. Right? But here’s the thing with a little bit of added perspective, okay? So listen, if I remodel this person’s kitchen, am I changing the world? Well, maybe not world with a capital-W but I’m damn well changing the world of their family and I’m having an impact by doing phenomenal work for them. And if I do phenomenal work for them and their family feels that for decades to come, are you going to tell me that that’s not going to impact my business in terms of my reputation and the word of mouth and referrals and all that stuff? Of course it is, but we just think… We limit ourselves. So we limit our own view of our capability to change at least our piece of the world for the better and those small-w worlds, as I like to refer to them, they add up and we are having an impact. So you don’t have to be Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Mother Teresa change the world. You could be Bob or Jane, the interior designer, that changes the world of their customers. And that’s a phenomenal thing.

John Jantsch: Well, I do marketing consulting, and over the years, my best clients are ones that I started actually looking for them as a behavior, were the ones that were trying to change their industry. They were trying to raise it up, they participated in it, they were on committees, they were in their association. And I think that that’s not much of a leap to have a pretty significant impact on your industry. But I think it’s more of the point of view of that’s one of our goals rather than just getting through the day.

Steve Farber: Yeah, exactly. It’s like, I think just like anything else, people get involved in causes and associations for any number of reasons. And there are those people that will do that for networking, they want to make the connections. And there’s nothing wrong with that, but you can always tell the difference. For somebody who’s involved in… Let’s just say an association for example, involved in an association because they want to make contacts that will help their business and those that want to really leverage the collection of people there to do something phenomenal. You could tell the difference. And I think the more we tap into that part of ourselves or culture that part of ourselves, the more possibilities it opens up for us in business and in our communities and beyond.

John Jantsch: Speaking with Steve Farber, he is the author of Love is Just Damn Good Business. So Steve, why don’t you tell people where they can find the book and of course find more about your work.

Steve Farber: Sure. Well, the book of course is available wherever fine books are sold, including, of course, Amazon, et cetera. And you can find me at stevefarber.com and if you can remember my name, you can find me pretty much anywhere. So on Twitter it’s @stevefarber and Instagram is Steve Farber and LinkedIn is Steve Farber and Facebook of Steve Harvey. You get the picture. So yeah, I’m very easy to find. And on the website at stevefarber.com we’ve got a lot of great resources, video and audios, and the blog lives there and I’ve got digital learning experience and lots of really great stuff. So I invite you to come and check it out.

John Jantsch: Awesome. Well thanks Steve for joining us and hopefully we’ll run into you soon out there on the road.

Steve Farber: Thank you, John.

Transcript of How to Focus on High-Value Work

Transcript of How to Focus on High-Value Work written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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John Jantsch: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is David Finkel. He’s the founder and CEO of Maui Mastermind, and he’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today. The Freedom Formula: How to Succeed in Business Without Sacrificing Your Family, Health, or Life. So welcome David.

David Finkel: Oh John, a pleasure to be back here on the show.

John Jantsch: So there’s been a lot of work lately that I’ve covered, that a lot of authors who have covered, about this idea that that clearly working harder and longer isn’t the answer. Is that a way to maybe sum up the thesis behind the freedom formula?

David Finkel: It sure is, and I’ll give a different metaphor for it. I think we operate in the world in two different economies. There’s one economy, we call it the time and effort economy, and in a time and effort economy, we think we’re getting paid for hours, effort, and attitude, right? If it was a Hollywood movie, we would probably choose Rocky as its poster child. And we say, “Well, hey, he became heavyweight champion.” And I would just say to somebody who’s thinking about that, number one, that was Hollywood in the 1970s, but number two, there’s got to be a better way to succeed in business, whether it’s your own company, or you’re key executive somewhere else, than just absorbing hours and hours and hours of punishing time and commitment for a career to have that.

David Finkel: So then there’s the other economy that operates behind the scenes. We call this the value economy, and in the value economy we’re getting paid for results. And everyone says, “Oh, I get this.” It becomes almost a cliche in our culture that I should work smart, not hard. But the reality is most people don’t know how to operationalize that, how to actually do that in the face of 100 plus emails a day, probably four different app feeds, text feeds and other things that they’re dealing with. The world has just changed. I mean, it’s so easy to work from anywhere at any time, and the expectations around that have been such that we haven’t updated the way that we design how we run our day, week, quarter, and company to accommodate that so that we actually behave in the value economy. Because most people … Most people say, “Of course I should be in the value economy.” But we don’t realize how we ourselves live in the time and effort economy, or even worse, we push our staff to subtly behave in that time and effort way.

John Jantsch: Yeah. And I think it certainly, as I listened to you, and I know we’re going to unpack this, it really has to be an intentional thing too because, man, there are a lot of time stealers out there that, as you said, it sort of can unconsciously … The day goes by and you, you come home, and my spouse asks me, “So what happened good today?” Well, I don’t know, but I sure was busy. I think that that’s a trap, isn’t it?

David Finkel: It absolutely is. It’s funny. So in chapter two of the book, we have this quiz in there for the 10 time stealers. We had done this originally about four years ago at a large conference we had, we had business owners and key executives answer. On average, these 10 things were taking up 18 hours or more of their week. 900 hours of their work life every year was going to things that were creating almost no value for their company. When they added up those hours each week, and I had to multiply that by 48 assuming they were taking four weeks off, they were floored. Here’s what became even worse, John, when I said, “Okay, now do you think your staff [inaudible] as well, or better than you, or the same?” Most people said about the same or worse, which means it’s not just their 900 hours, but the 900 hours of their five people on their leadership team each. And they were horrified when they did the math on that,

John Jantsch: We only have so many days, or I’m sorry, so much time. Well, I guess we have so many days, but we only have so much time in the day. And so I’ve been a big proponent of this idea of focusing on your highest pay-off work if you’ve only got so many hours a day. But how do you advise people … Because I know you agree with that idea, but how do you advise people to figure out what is their highest pay-off work?

David Finkel: Yeah. The first step is to actually do that in writing. And so, I mean, I guess I’ve made a career out of not just telling people what to do, but being that anal retentive person that’s always said, “Well, here’s mechanically how you go about doing it.” So we’ve created what we call the time value matrix. This idea that Pareto’s principle just doesn’t go far enough. The 80/20 rule is phenomenal, 20% of what I do gives me 80% of the result, but I need to take that further. Well, then what’s 20% of the 20% going to get me? And we call that 20% of the 20% B time, and then 20% of that 20% of the 20% is A time.

David Finkel: So as we look through and we play this through, there are 4% items that we do, we call this the sweet spot things, that generate huge valleys, 60, 65% of the value for the week. And there’s a magic 1%, if you actually work the math, it’s 0.8%, but we round it up that creates half the value. So I start by asking, “Well, what is it on the payroll that just I’m there to do?” And so I gave an example from the book for my company, so I run a business coaching company. So the three things that I do that create the highest value, number one, are large scale promotional places where I can be a spokesperson for the company to bring in large numbers of people, and that could be from a interviews like this, that could be from the syndicated column I do for ink.com, that could be from a keynote at a large industry conference of our target market. That’s one thing that I do that creates tremendous value.

David Finkel: Another thing that I do that creates tremendous value would be developing my leadership team and managing them for accountability. So those are just some quick examples. What I know doesn’t create lots of value are doing things, like for me directly, any more coaching. I’ve got a great coaching staff that does that coaching. For me, that’s what I would call C time. It’s valuable. I can bill for it at a fairly high rate, but it’s limited for what I do. And, I’ll give the example with an attorney, most attorneys think, “Oh, what am I on the payroll to do? To produce law services.” Well, actually that’s just billable work.

David Finkel: Billable work is never more than that that 20% time value. We call that C time. But perhaps if I could focus on what can I do that brings in lots more work in the business, or like one of the law firms I talk about in the book, there’s this guy Marvin who runs a successful boutique law firm, and for him, making decisions about where he should set his fee structure, which he had been so busy doing actual legal work that he had never done before, and really thought about, looked at what his competitors do and he’s like, “Well, hey, I charge 600 an hour for my time. I’m at the high end.” I challenged him, I said, “Marvin, but your paralegals and your legal secretaries you’re billing 30, 40, 50% below your competitors.” And when we looked at that, it took him about two hours to make the decision, get the information, make the decision, John.

David Finkel: With that one decision there, he probably made a quarter of a million dollars more profit just by increasing his mid-level pricing for his paralegals and legal secretaries. And his clients were thrilled with it because more of the work was now incentivized to staff down so that rather than paying him 600, I could pay one of his six legal secretaries or paralegals that he worked with and I could do that at 195 and he just now had more capacity to get more work out the door, and he was more incentivized to do that because he made a fairly good spread on their work. So that’s an example of this value economy, about how do I identify in writing, and it’s almost never … My highest value work is almost never the production of my main product or service. That’s almost never the highest value of my timescale.

John Jantsch: Yeah. And I think … I work with a lot of smaller organizations and the founder typically sells the work, does a lot of the work is seen as the mentor for the client a lot of times. And even when they start adding staff, I think it’s really hard for them to let go of that work, but I think they really … I think they, in some, ways devalue their relationship or their ability to advise a client, because the client sees them not only … Like in my world, not only as the marketing strategist, but also as the person that fixes their blog post. And if you’re doing both of those, regardless of what you’re charging for it, you’re probably devaluing how your clients sees what you bring to them.

David Finkel: That’s a great point you make.

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John Jantsch: So one of the things that I … I was working with an organization on kind of marketing strategy and a lot of times we have quarterly planning sessions to try and say, “Okay, what’s next?” And invariably you get the team together and 19 objectives come out of that meeting because you know, everybody’s got their thing, and I know you’re a big proponent of the idea that you can only have a couple. So how do we get people to think in terms of fewer better?

David Finkel: Absolutely. I’ll go back to that example of those 19 different things that you have. What this becomes like, the analogy I’ll share is I start all these home improvement projects in my house, but I finish none of them. So not only does it absorb my time, but it’s made a mess of the house and nothing is actually better from it. Instead, what we would tell a client, and what the freedom formula chapter three goes into, is this idea of how can I turn my plan for every quarter into a one page plan of action, with no more than three focus areas for the discretionary time? Three top priorities max. It’s okay to even have one or two. And by defining these out, “Hey, for this focus area this quarter, here’s what I call my criteria of success for it. And then now I’m going to create my action steps in milestones.”

David Finkel: What it does, John, is it gives me a visual tool to hold myself and the rest of my team accountable to be focusing our best resources of time and attention on those fewer things that make a bigger difference. One of the things I would almost always tell some to look at is, well, what’s the single biggest limiting factor in your business or in your department right now that you’re dealing with? The one constraint more than anything else that holds you back from the results that you want? And some people might say, “Oh, I need more leads coming in the door.” Others might say, “I need more operational capacity.” Some people might say, “There’s a certain key hire I don’t have.” Great. Well that quarter, one of your top three focus areas is going to be solving, or at least making better, pushing back, that one limiting factor.

David Finkel: Then on that same subject there, people say, “Well, I have an action plan.” And I say, “Oh, great, show it to me.” Oh, it’s not in writing. Okay, well then you don’t have an action plan. And then those that show me the action plan, John, invariably it’s like seven or 17 pages long. And I laugh. I ask one question that really puts it into a new light. How often do you look at this action plan? And they look at me and go … Yeah, they don’t. They don’t. Once a year. So one page plan you can keep right there by the side of your desk, pull it out each week to look at what do I need to get done from this plan this week? And it just changes everything. It’s so easy. So simple. One page.

John Jantsch: So in your previous work, and you’ve been on my show before when we’ve talked about some of your previous works, it’s been very leader or founder-focused. And in this book you really go into the fact that systems and team and culture and all those things … And building leaders in internally are all the things that are, that are really going to set you free. I mean, ultimately if you’re going to go beyond where you are today. So I guess kind of paint the picture. What’s the freedom formula when it comes to involving the team?

David Finkel: That’s right. So the common denominator we heard from a lot of people who read earlier books that I’d written was, this is fantastic, but … And here came the common but. But I wish you had something for my staff, but I wish you had something that applied to me. I’m not the owner, I run the department, or I manage a team of six people. And that really stayed with me for a while, even though our core business is working with owners of small and mid cap companies. I finally sat myself down, it took probably almost two years to write this book, which is much longer than it typically takes me to write a book, and found a way to find a voice to to say, “Hey, this is the book, not just for the owner but for key executives.” And matter of fact, some of the people that I worked with to do this book, to validate the ideas, were fortune 50 companies.

David Finkel: I started working with some of the VPs and executive VPS and division leaders for various large name brand companies. I can’t mention names because part of that was signing nondisclosures on that, but it was really interesting to me to watch. I’d seen this work for companies of 100,000, a million, 10 million, 100 million, but I hadn’t had the opportunity prior to this project to be working with companies that were in the 10, 50, 100 billion dollar companies. It was really fun to do.

David Finkel: Also what struck me about this was the same challenges that we’re dealing with at $1 million or $10 million or $100,000 or $50 million, they’re still dealing with when you just add the word billion versus million. It’s the same stuff that they’re dealing with. How do I balance work with life? How do I get my team and myself to focus my best time on those things that matter most in the face of all these other demands, in the face of my own desire to have control, in the face of conflicting priorities and messages that I’m hearing. How do I do this practically behaviorally, in the marketplace? What do I need to do first? What I need to do second? And that’s why I wrote the book. And so this book would be for anyone, whether they’re the owner, self-employed professional, an executive, or someone who aspires to be.

John Jantsch: One of the sections, and I think it’s in the team accelerators, or the accelerators under the team, and it’s become a pretty popular topic of late, I think, is this idea that that really leadership today or raising your team up is about coaching more than maybe the traditional leadership models. So you want to unpack what coaching looks like if I’m a department head?

David Finkel: Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, I come from a background that all the companies that I’ve owned for the last 25 years have been coaching companies. We’ve coached 50,000 or more people over that time for all the various companies. So we’ve learned something about coaching. The difference is that most people think about, “I’m going to manage.” Well, when I manage, I’m looking to work with somebody to make sure I organize, coordinate to get a certain result. When I’m coaching though, I’m developing a team so that not only do I get a result that moment, but I’m going to be increasing our capability to get more results, more autonomously over time. So, for example, one of the key coaching responsibilities I have is to ask myself, “Am I coaching this person for development, or am I coaching this person for a result?”

David Finkel: Let’s say I’m working with Joe, I might say Joe’s not one of the people that I’m looking to grow. So I’m going to coach him for the result. But Sheila, you know what? I’m coaching her for development, which means I’m not going to tell Sheila what to do. I’m going to ask her more questions that are open-ended. I’m going to follow back up with Sheila and challenge her thinking, helping her get to the conclusion, versus if I have a team member who’s been with me for awhile but really is never going to be capable or shown the interest of growing, I’m going to be more directive with him or her. Hey, this is how I want you to do it. Versus with Sheila, I’m going to help her get to the right answer so that next year she is more capable of solving all of those same challenges without me having to be there, and now I can work with her on the next level of development.

John Jantsch: I think it’s a like parenting, isn’t it, David? That you can tell a kid, “Here, go do that.” Or you can let them make decisions for themselves and let them figure things out on their own, and sure that’s going to take more time, but we all know the investment’s worth it, isn’t it?

David Finkel: That’s right. And so just me as positing as a leader, just saying, “Am I coaching this person for development, or am I coaching this person for the immediate result?” Helps me. And here’s one more simple one that helps me, John. I ask, “Where is this person on this function, on the spectrum of scale of capability.” If one to 10 says 10 is they know it cold, they could do this in their sleep, and a one if they’ve never seen this challenge, this responsibility, just by pausing and asking where they stand on a one to 10 changes how I lead them. If there’re two or three, I deal with them very differently than if they’re an eight, nine or a 10. Yet most of us never pause to ask that question, and as a result, some of our staff feel we micromanage, and other of our staff feel like we don’t give them enough support, we just advocate. And we can easily solve that.

John Jantsch: Yeah. And I think one of the things that should give some incentive to leaders who micromanage is that people just get used to it, and then they expect it. So then they don’t initiate, they wait for you to tell them what to do and give them the answers. And boy, if you can let go of that, all of a sudden, you’re going to bring a lot of innovation into your organization.

David Finkel: Absolutely. And that’s why they’re working 70, 80 hours, because they’re doing their job in the midst of doing three other people’s jobs at the same time.

John Jantsch: Yeah. Yeah. So another big accelerator is a positive culture. I mean, if we’re going to call a book succeed in business without sacrificing your family, health, and life, I mean, there’s certainly an aspect of culture just in that statement. So how does culture really play into your formula? Well, I know how it plays into your formula, but how does somebody use it as a positive driver?

David Finkel: Yeah. Well, we take it just in the context of this idea that we’re going to build a company where we don’t value people who just look busy or who are responsive, but we’re looking to value and reward and to give attention to people who truly do create value [inaudible] push the organization towards its goals. So one of the cultural aspects that I encourage them to do in the book is to actually have an honest conversation about this and run a 60 day experiment. And for 60 days you’re going to take a look at what are the boundaries and the ground rules? Where should people be responsive and where should people be able to put some boundaries? If Tim is going to be running a meeting with your three best programmers, shouldn’t he be able to have all those people turn off their email? Shouldn’t he be able to have all those people turn off their phones for that two hour meeting without other people saying, “Oh my gosh, you let us down by not being responsive.” Well, our culture is there.

David Finkel: How about our culture at nights and on weekends? One of the things we talk in the book is about take the needle out of the haystack. Well, a lot of people are connected to their phone because they’re afraid of missing that one email out of 1,000 or 5,000, and so they’ll literally give up their entire quality of life so they don’t miss that one email. Let’s be smarter than that. Let’s ask ourselves, “What’s a better mechanism to deliver that one out of 1,000 message that really is mission critical and needs to be addressed in the evening or on the weekend?” But outside of that, that gives me back my life, and because of that we’ll retain our staff longer, their families won’t resent them and their company, and will get more of their whole hearted buy-in for them because they can have a life and not have to sacrifice everything.

John Jantsch: Visiting with David Finkel, author of The Freedom Formula. David, one thing I know about you is you are a systems and process and tools kind of guy, and so everything we’ve been talking about, I know you have built into a toolkit that comes with the Freedom Formula, so you want to tell people where they can find out more about the book, and especially about this toolkit?

David Finkel: Yeah, absolutely. So they can go to freedomtoolkit.com, and while they’re there, not only can they can find links to go ahead and get a copy of the book at freedomtoolkit.com, but once they’ve gotten the book they should register it and as a free value add, there’s all kinds of PDF and video-based tools. For example, there’s a 90 day quick-start program that guides you and your staff through the book over the course of 90 days, where it gives you one page every month that you’ll go through with your team for a meeting to run about that particular section of the book. You get a copy for each of your staff, you follow it that way through. You can download the PDF, the rest of it. I think your listeners will really enjoy that. Just at freedomtoolkit.com

John Jantsch: Absolutely. It is, I mean, invaluable. Not only the book and what the book teaches, but just having those templates and those forms really can help you get started. So David, it was great catching up with you again. In fact, I was just out in your part of the world, I did a little backpacking trip through Yellowstone. So I probably flew right over you on the way up there.

David Finkel: Thank you for having me on here, John. I had a really good time here. I appreciate it.

John Jantsch: Well, hopefully we’ll catch up with you again sometime soon on the road. Take care.

Transcript of Finding Stillness in the Modern World

Transcript of Finding Stillness in the Modern World written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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John Jantsch: This episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Klaviyo. Klaviyo is a platform that helps growth-focused eCommerce brands drive more sales with super-targeted, highly relevant email, Facebook and Instagram marketing.

John Jantsch: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Ryan Holiday. He is, today, one of the world’s foremost thinkers and writers on ancient philosophy, and its place in everyday life. You’re probably familiar with The Daily Stoic, Obstacle is the Way, Ego is the Enemy, and his latest book we’re going to talk about today, Stillness is the Key.

John Jantsch: Ryan, thanks for joining me.

Ryan Holiday: Yeah, thank you for having me. I was thinking as I was getting ready to come on this, I think you were, like, the first or the second podcast I ever did, way back in 2012. You have been at this a long time, and so have I.

John Jantsch: That was with Trust Me, I’m Lying, I’m thinking?

Ryan Holiday: I think so, yeah.

John Jantsch: Yeah. Well, I have been at that a long time. It’s been really fun to watch the arc of your career, it’s taken you some pretty amazing places.

John Jantsch: So, I’m sure you get tired of this question, but I’d like to hear from you, the answer to this from you. I could look it up, and there’d be lots of Wikipedia entries on this, but how would you define stoicism?

Ryan Holiday: So, I give two definitions to people.

Ryan Holiday: If I’m giving the really, really simple definition, I just say stoicism is not emotionlessness, it’s not resignation, it’s the belief that we don’t control what happens to us, we only control how we respond. Right? The stoic just says, “Look, the vast majority of the things in the world are not up to me, but I control my thoughts, my opinions, my attitudes. That’s what I’m going to focus on.” That’s one really simple definition.

Ryan Holiday: If I was going to go a bit more advanced, I’d just say, look, stoicism really worships four virtues. It’s an ancient philosophy that dates back to Greece, and to Rome. The four virtues of stoicism, they sound familiar because they also happen to be the four virtues of Christianity, and a lot of Western thought. It’s just courage. Temperance, that means moderation. Justice, that means doing the right thing. Then, wisdom, that’s intelligence, education, learning, understanding. It’s a pretty straightforward philosophy, with not a lot … That’s not as controversial as people might think. It’s all in the execution, right?

Ryan Holiday: It’s easy to say, justice, wisdom, temperance, courage. It’s hard to do those four things, and to do them regularly, when the stakes are high.

John Jantsch: So, this book, Stillness is the Key, I’ve heard you refer to as a trilogy to go with Obstacle is the Way, Ego is the Enemy. What do you hope the third book in the trilogy adds to the over-arching message?

Ryan Holiday: Well, to me, stillness is this thing that’s timeless, but also very, very urgent.

Ryan Holiday: 500 years ago, Blaise Pascal said that “All of humanity’s problems stem from our inability to sit quietly in a room alone.” It was true five centuries ago, but today it’s impossible. It’s not our inability, it’s that it’s impossible. We have a device that magically transports us away from that room, or from any feeling of discomfort, or worry, or whatever. We don’t have any of the clarity we need to make decisions, to know what’s important.

Ryan Holiday: Both the Stoics and the Buddhists were very fond of a metaphor. They said that it’s like … “The mind is like muddy water. You have to let it sit, you have to approach it calmly, for the dust and the silt to settle. Only then, can you see through it, do you know what’s really there.” That’s just so hard to do for entrepreneurs, and for executives, and for parents. They’re running a mile a minute, and they never have any slow time in which the things sift to the bottom.

John Jantsch: Your books have sold extremely well. I know Stillness is the Key will sell quite well. Is your publisher asking you for the fourth book in the trilogy yet?

Ryan Holiday: Well, no. I was just laughing about this with Steve, who is our mutual book agent, that I talk about in the book, this idea of there never … The problem is there’s never enough, we’re always doing. I think I’ve done nine books in seven years. Steve is out with a proposal for the next one right now. I do like to always be working.

Ryan Holiday: In my defense, what I would say is the reason I like to have the next book, is that I find that the stillness of work to be better than the anxiety of, what am I going to do next? Or, look how successful I am? Or, how is it selling? As much as I want this book to sell well, and I’ve wanted the other books to sell well … I’ve gotten very lucky. When Obstacles … They way it came out, I had sold what became Ego is the Enemy before it came out. When Obstacle is the Way came out, and it did okay, but it didn’t blow the doors off, I didn’t care because I had deadlines to meet. Then, when Obstacle is the Way really started to take off, I also didn’t care, because I had deadlines to meet.

Ryan Holiday: I think it’s important to have good things to focus on, rather than to have just space for our mind and our ego to do their dirty work.

John Jantsch: Yeah.

John Jantsch: You and I were laughing a bit before we started recording this that, you know, when you write a book like this, or a series of books that suggest a way to live, you probably yourself get held to a higher standard, right or wrong. How has that impacted you, or do you feel that sense of, oh, I can’t let anybody see me freak out? I’m the one that’s telling them you can’t do that.

Ryan Holiday: I mean, you can imagine writing a book about stoicism, and wring a book about ego and stillness, and then I go home to my wife, who does not allow me to get away with any of not having those things. It’s like, there is a downside to writing a book about ego, as you can never … You’ve got to be constantly on guard that you’re not being a hypocrite.

Ryan Holiday: I do think about that. It’s really hard. When you are out doing and making things, it’s busy, your active. You’ve got anxieties, you’ve got fears, you’ve got frustrations. It’s never as good as you want it to be. People are never doing it the way you want them to do it. I’ve dealt with enough monstrous people in my life to know I don’t want to be those people. I’m always trying to catch myself before it spins out of control.

John Jantsch: Well, I think a lot of what you’re suggesting in this work is that we’re all a work in progress. You’re working towards something, you haven’t arrived at anything, right? Would you suggest that’s right?

Ryan Holiday: Oh, completely. Ego is not this thing that you magically get rid of once. What’s so insidious about ego is that it’s always creeping in. What’s so both demoralizing and refreshing about obstacles is that there’s always another one up around the curve.

Ryan Holiday: I think with stillness, you have this moment of stillness, maybe it’s early in the morning. You wake up before the kids, you don’t check your email, and you go straight into this project you’ve been working on, or you go for an awesome run or a swim. You just experience, you’re just present, and you’re killing it. It’s just awesome. Then, you pick up your phone and you’ve got to start from scratch.

Ryan Holiday: It’s not only we’re a work in progress, but this state we’re trying to get to is inherently ephemeral. It’s like success. Success isn’t something you have, success is something a bit more elusive, [inaudible] with, but you don’t own it, for sure.

John Jantsch: Yeah, it’s funny, but I think you’re, in some ways, the work that you’re doing is helping people redefine how they even talk about success, or think about success.

John Jantsch: I read between the lines, that you’re writing that success in a lot of ways, is realizing that you can’t control everything, and you need to trust yourself enough to know that you’re hopefully doing what you’re supposed to be doing, but that you need to let go of trying to control every aspect of how it’s going to get done. I think when we come to that ability to have some level of letting go, to me, that’s like stage one, or the starting gate for success.

Ryan Holiday: Yeah, totally. What I try to do a lot of work on in my own life, and when people ask me for advice about it, I talk to them about this, too. Particularly in something as unpredictable as the book world, which you know very well. You have to find a way to root your idea of what success is, as much as possible in the parts of the process you control.

Ryan Holiday: So, we’re talking here. My book comes out tomorrow. I feel … I’m not at 100%, I don’t think it’s possible to get to 100%. I feel like 90% of the success of the project, I’ve already gotten all of that. It came from enjoying the writing, it came from expressing what I wanted to say. It comes from knowing I put as much of myself into it as possible, that I grew in the process, that I didn’t cut corners. That I got even the opportunity to do it, so on and so forth.

Ryan Holiday: Look, if it sells zero copies tomorrow, or if it sells 10 million copies, obviously that’s going to have some impact on how I feel, but I’m not going to live and die by it. If I woke up tomorrow, and this happened two books ago. I went out for a run with a friend, and while I was running my phone blew up. I got a bunch of text and emails that it had been positively reviewed in the New York Times, which I had no idea was coming. It was really wonderful that had almost no impact on me. I don’t feel like, this isn’t a weird humble brag. I had already knew that I had done what I was best capable of doing. If the review had been negative, I don’t think it would have rocked me. Had the review not happened, I wouldn’t have missed it. The fact that it was positive was just like, oh, that’s a wonderful surprise rather than, oh my God, I hope this comes back. Please come back good, please come back good.

Ryan Holiday: You’re trying to set yourself up in a position where you’re as invulnerable as possible, to things that are outside of your control.

John Jantsch: What’s interesting is, and I could find the [Seneca] quote, here. “When no noise reaches you, when no word shakes you out of your self, whether it be flattery or a threat, or merely an empty sound buzzing about you, with unmeaning din.”

John Jantsch: I think what a lot of us miss this idea that, you have to stay … Not just worry about the things that you see as a threat, but also forget about the things that you see as flattery. Don’t judge either of those as right or wrong.

Ryan Holiday: Yeah. Marcus [inaudible] talks, he says one of my favorite lines from him. He says, “To accept it without arrogance, and to let it go with indifference.”

Ryan Holiday: So, you shrug off the bad stuff, and you shrug off the good stuff, too. I just love the idea that Bob Dylan didn’t go accept his Nobel Prize, he was too busy working. You know what I mean? I love that. That’s a whole other level, and I have no idea … I’m very sure that if I was ever given a Nobel Prize, I would accept it, but I respect the amount of confidence, and stillness, and just focus on the craft that it must take to be like, “I don’t want to go to Sweden. I’m busy.”

John Jantsch: That may have just been him being on brand, too, but yeah.

Ryan Holiday: Sure, sure, sure, sure.

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John Jantsch: So, you quote 500000 year old text and writers. I’m wondering if there’s some contemporary writers that you think are getting this right, right now?

Ryan Holiday: I think Cal Newport is one of the great, non-fiction self-help writers of our time. I think Mark Manson, another friend of mine, really great. [inaudible] people out there that are touching on it. How do you minimize your exposure to things that disrupt your stillness? How do you make sure that you’re caring about only the things that matter?

Ryan Holiday: When Mark Manson talks about the subtle art of not giving an F, he means don’t care about the things that you don’t need to care about, so you can care more deeply about the things that you should care about.

Ryan Holiday: Yeah, I think there’s lots of great writers out there that are touching on it. I think that’s what’s so wonderful about this topic is that we’ve been struggling with it a really long time. There’s lots of insights and wisdom about it.

John Jantsch: Yeah. You quote Robert Green quite often. I would throw him in that category I suppose, huh?

Ryan Holiday: Of course, yeah! Robert Green is, I think, probably the greatest writer, non-fiction writer of our time. I think he’s just spectacular. He talks about … In Mastery, he talks about just how transformative it is, mentally, spiritually and physically, to just fall in love with just every aspect of what you’re doing, and to so deeply love that process.

John Jantsch: Yeah. I think there’s a lot of people that preach this idea, you’ve got to find what you love. Then, that’ll be your purpose. I think it throws aside the idea that, get good at something, and you’re probably going to love it.

Ryan Holiday: Yes! Yeah, of course. If you’re not good at it, it’s hard to love it. Yeah, of course.

John Jantsch: All right, a big part of your work, and certainly it shows up in Stillness, is this idea of letting go. I think that, no matter how many times … I talk to a lot of entrepreneurs. No matter how many times they hear that, I say that, it still seems to be one of the hardest things to do.

John Jantsch: First off, why is that, and how do we do it?

Ryan Holiday: Well, it’s really hard because what made you who you are is that you care. You become a champion, or you become a successful entrepreneur, or you become a leader because you always want to get better, and you’re not satisfied with the status quo.

Ryan Holiday: Obviously, I think that’s better than not caring at all. There are plenty of people that are like, “I want to be successful.” It’s like, do you really? Because it doesn’t seem like you’re putting in the effort or the commitment. It’s just realizing that on the other side of that gift, is a consequence. That consequence is it makes it very hard for you to accept when you don’t have control over things. It makes it very hard for you to enjoy what you’re doing, as you’re doing it. It makes it hard for you to ever feel satisfied.

Ryan Holiday: I think you just … Every virtue has to be balanced out, just like every vice. I think what we’re talking about is how to do you take some of your natural inclinations and make sure that you them on a leash, rather than the other way around.

John Jantsch: One of the things you talk about a lot is this idea of staying in wonder, and having wonder still for many of the things you’re doing. As you start a business particularly, a lot of things become un-wonderful over time, because they’re routine, or because you just don’t like doing them. What do you do to stay in that state of wonder?

Ryan Holiday: One of the things I always just remind myself is how absurd existence is. We’re these monkey spinning around on a rock in space. How lucky we are to be where we are, how lucky we are to be here right now. As scary and bad as things might seem, I’d much rather be alive now than 100 years ago, or 1000 years ago.

Ryan Holiday: I always go, this is so frustrating, this is so annoying, but it’s so much better and so much unbelievably better than what many people could have ever even imagined. I would be an idiot to take this too seriously. That’s something I do.

Ryan Holiday: The other thing is just make sure you’re not … I remember early on in my career, I was working in Hollywood. I realized that I had not seen outside during the daytime during the week for months. I would leave my apartment early, and I would get to work right as it was starting to get light. Then, I’d go, I’d be leaving the office after dark. It’s just crazy! That’s just not a healthy way to live.

Ryan Holiday: It might seem irresponsible to say, you know what? I’m going to go outside for an hour and read a book on this picnic table, or I’m going to go for a walk. Or, you know what? I’m working from home tomorrow, and I’m going to do it at a café, where I sit out on the porch. That might seem irresponsible, but if it’s about preventing burnout, it might be the very … Think about athletes. They’re the most driving, ambitious people in their field. They don’t practice on Monday if they played on Sunday, because that’s how you get hurt. The coaches know you have to have rest days because the muscles will snap. The mind is a muscle like any other, and you’ve got to be giving it rest.

John Jantsch: I know the Stoics wrote about this, and I’ve, as you know, have embarked on a workout where I’m really curating a lot of the work from a body of literature a lot of people call The Transcendentalists. Thoreau being in that, Emerson being in that.

John Jantsch: For them, nature was such a perfect example of how to live, and how to stay in wonder. That, to me … I happen to be sitting in the Rocky Mountains right at the moment, and have pine trees out my back and out my front. For me, going and sitting under one of those is the most refreshing thing I can do.

Ryan Holiday: Yeah. There’s even a term for that, they call it forest bathing. You’re just bathing in the forest. If you’re not doing that, I think you’re accumulating a lot of gunk, and goo, and nasty stuff. You’ve just got to go out and wash yourself in nature from time to time.

Ryan Holiday: In Austin, there’s a pool close to my house, at a gym that I like. There’s two outdoor pools that are spring-fed, right along the river.

John Jantsch: Is that Barton Springs?

Ryan Holiday: Barton Springs and [Deep Eddy 00:21:01]. It takes longer, it’s more expensive. Sometimes I’ve got to wait for a lane. Every time I do it, I’m just so glad that I did it. I feel like it roots me in something in a way that a chlorine filled pool in a windowless room just does not do.

John Jantsch: So, you write about this, the Stoics wrote about this. I think there’s lots of contemporary literature that suggests this is a good practice, and that is the practice of solitude, or seeking some level of solitude.

John Jantsch: Why are we so deathly afraid of that? The worst punishment you can give somebody in prison is to put them in solitary confinement. I mean, on top of that being … Obviously, we’re talking about that being a positive thing, but why, as humans, are we so frightened by it?

Ryan Holiday: Look, I certainly wouldn’t want to spend 60 days in solitude.

Ryan Holiday: I think one of the big reasons is that, going off to a cabin in the woods to think doesn’t sound like work. Sitting at your computer at an office, where you’re actually just reading ESPN, and checking your Fantasy scores, that looks like work. A lot of people … If I walk into your office and you’re not there, I go, “Where’s John? He’s supposed to be working, he has a book deadline.” If I came into your office, and it looked like you were sitting there, but I couldn’t see what was on your computer, you’re actually watching YouTube videos, I’d be like, “That guy’s hard at work.”

Ryan Holiday: I think a lot of this is just the logistics and the appearances of how our modern world is set up. Even Silicon Valley had the idea that everyone should work in one large room, where they don’t have any doors. It’s like, have you ever met a human being? This is not how people thrive. People … What does every kid want? They want their own room. They want their own space where they can think, and reflect, and have quiet time. For whatever reasons, in terms of workplace culture, and society, we have just obliterated that. Then, we wonder why people are frantic, and nervous, and stressed, and overworked.

John Jantsch: I believe all human, living things are connected in whatever soup pot you want to call it. You’re right, we are one big collective organism engaged in one endless project together. We are one, we are the same. Still, too often, we forget it, and we forget ourselves in the process.

John Jantsch: How do you come to terms with this idea of us being all connected?

Ryan Holiday: Yeah, this is a really important stoic idea. They talk about this idea of [sympathea 00:23:44]. The stoics talk about the idea that we’re this large organism, that we’re made for each other, that the common good is the thing that matters. So many people, they’re not starting a business to make the world a better place, they’re starting a business because they want to get rich, or they want to get famous, or they want to get powerful. I talk to authors and they’re like, “Oh, I’m writing a book.” I go, oh, why? They’re like, “I want to be a best seller.” It’s like, aw, man, that’s such a crappy reason to do anything.

Ryan Holiday: The reason you should write a book is because you have something that you feel needs to be said that would help other people. The reason to make a business is because you feel like there’s a need that deserves to be met, and that would improve the world if it was met.

Ryan Holiday: I think it’s just like, when you’re selfish, it seems like a good strategy, but it’s a short-term strategy. Eventually, you burnout, or you overreach, or you become alienated from the people that you’re serving. You’ve got to figure out how to make this about more than just you, if you want to be happy and you want to thrive. At least, that’s my take.

John Jantsch: Yeah, absolutely.

John Jantsch: Speaking with Ryan Holiday. Out October 1st, 2019, everywhere that books are sold, Stillness is the Key. Ryan, you want to tell anybody where they might find out more about your work, and you?

Ryan Holiday: Yeah. The book’s available everywhere. You can go to RyanHoliday.net, or @RyanHoliday.

Ryan Holiday: Then, if you’re interested in stoicism at all, or that idea of a page a day thing, we have a website called Daily Stoic. It sends you one email about stoic philosophy every single day. It’s my favorite thing to write. I think I’m on the fourth year of it now, it’s been just an awesome experience.

John Jantsch: It sounds like a lot of work, but you have built a heck of a community and following. Obviously, it’s reflected in the depth of your work, but also in the depth of your following. Go on you, Ryan.

John Jantsch: Thanks again for stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing podcast, and hopefully we’ll run into you soon, out there on the road.

Ryan Holiday: Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Transcript of Creating a Brand Name That Sticks

Transcript of Creating a Brand Name That Sticks written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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Transcript

John Jantsch: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Jeremy Miller. He is a brand strategist speaker, founder of Sticky Branding and the author of Brand New Name: A Proven, Step-by-Step Process to Create an Unforgettable Brand Name. So Jeremy, welcome to the show.

Jeremy Miller: Thanks John. It’s a pleasure to be here.

John Jantsch: So I have to tell you, I’m going to have a confession. You know my brand name is Duct Tape Marketing.

Jeremy Miller: Yes.

John Jantsch: But my original company name was Jantsch Communications.

Jeremy Miller: I love that you changed your name then. It’s one of my favorite marketing names that has been unforgettable, and following you for eight years, it’s in that range that it just sticks.

John Jantsch: Well, Jantsch Communications was terrible as a name, because it was-

Jeremy Miller: Well, it’s your name. You can’t knock your family name, your parents worked hard on it.

John Jantsch: It was my name, but people thought I sold long distance or something, I don’t know. I’m dating myself, right? What’s long distance? But anyway, yeah, we’re going to talk about that. Let me ask you the first question. What’s the job of a brand name? What does a brand name need to do to be successful?

Jeremy Miller: Well, I think of a brand name as a label in a file folder in your customer’s mind. It’s that thing that people refer to when they have a need. When you go to a grocery store, when you are talking to someone, we think in words, we think in names. It’s the way we identify something. There’s this classic scene in the Simpsons, I don’t remember if you recall, but Mr. Burns loses his power plant and he becomes a normal person, he has to do his own grocery shopping. He’s sitting in the grocery aisle and he’s looking at catsup and ketchup, and just back and forth, “Ketchup, catsup,” and everyone down the aisle are looking at him, “What’s this crazy person doing?” He doesn’t have the words to know how to buy something. And that’s the purpose of a name. It’s that thing that gives you meaning.

John Jantsch: Well, and full disclosure, I lucked on to Duct Tape Marketing. I mean, I just thought that that sounded like a good name, but I didn’t do all kinds of extensive research. But what everybody kept telling me every time I would say it is like, “I get it. It tells a story.” And so without really knowing, I think I kind of lucked onto really one of the key attributes of a great brand name, isn’t it?

Jeremy Miller: I think so. And I think a great name absolutely does tell a story, and that’s what makes it memorable, that we understand it. Now, not all names have to tell a story. A name could be an empty vessel. When you look at Kodak, George Eastman’s vision was to create a name that meant nothing, that he could breathe life into so that it became a story of the Kodak moment. So you took a descriptive metaphor and were able to apply it to marketing. We understand what duct tape is, we understand what marketing is, but by putting them together, it creates this aha moment. But it all depends on the entrepreneur’s strategy. What do you want your business to be? And then you choose the name that fits it.

John Jantsch: Let’s go to that Kodak example, because yes, in hindsight, huge brand name, everybody knows what it meant or what it stood for at one point, but when you come up with a name like that, does it require then that you’re going to invest so much energy in having to explain to people and describe it and maybe even spend years getting it to become a household name?

Jeremy Miller: Yes, absolutely. So when you choose an empty vessel such as a Kodak or a Verizon or Hulu or any of those types of names, then you have to breathe life into it and make it your own, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. It’s your opportunity that when people interact with your business and your products and your service and your people, that’s how you’re inserting meaning and value into that name, but you’re going to have to work harder to promote yourself. So you have that balancing act, but that’s actually part of the strategy too. The biggest reason why we are going towards empty vessels is that there’s a trademark issue.

Jeremy Miller: There’s actually a naming drought. In the United States alone, we are registering 564,000 new small businesses every single month. That’s 2% of the United States population starting a company at any given time, and that’s just a mind boggling number for me. Now, not all these businesses are going to survive, but they all need names and they all need websites and then a chunk of them are going to do trademarks. And so we’re, today, experiencing an issue where all the available .coms, if you’re going to go buy a website, chances are you’re going to have to buy it from someone else. It’s like real estate. But if you throw the trademark element to the mix, now we’ve got really complicated things.

Jeremy Miller: So being able to register something like Duct Tape anything today, it’s going to be really hard. You got in at a moment in time that allowed you to create this powerful brand story.

John Jantsch: Well, and I love the Hulus and the names that you threw out there when they really evoke emotion for me. Even if I don’t know what it means, I like the sound of it or something, or even then when it’s explained to me what it means, sometimes. But can we also get too clever? I mean, I see a lot of people doing stuff where I’m kind of like, I can’t even say that, let alone spell that.

Jeremy Miller: Well, I think there’s absolutely that. So my advice if you’re inventing a word is focus on something that is a phonetic spelling versus a Latin or Greek spelling. It’s a lot easier to say Hulu than Verizon, and it’s a lot easier to remember that, same thing with Uber and other things, even though they’re short. Acura is an example of a phonetically spelled word that was invented or Swiffer is another one. We speak and think in sounds, whereas something that has more of, say, a pharmaceutical type of nature is a lot harder to remember. So there’s that element of our programming as people.

Jeremy Miller: But I would also just say this, that name is strategic. What you choose to name something should represent your brand, your positioning, what you’re trying to create. So if you called, say, a chain of retirement living centers, purple taco, you probably have got the wrong strategy, even if it sounds kind of cool. So the name has got to fit what you want to create. So your strategy is where everything starts.

John Jantsch: The name thing is hard, because you can come up with and test some names … I’ve found over the years, you’ll get feedback, people, “Oh, that’s terrible. That’s awful.” But then you go with it and 10 years in it’s like Frisbee. Probably a stupid sounding name the first time somebody heard it, but then became … And again, not everybody’s looking for naming a whole category of a device, but isn’t that a good example of sometimes you got to throw stuff out there at first maybe doesn’t just sound right?

Jeremy Miller: I’m going to come back to the Frisbee story in a second, but yes, a quirk, something that is odd or doesn’t quite fit, like Slack. How could a product focused on team collaboration have all these negative connotations? But the name is just great. Same thing with Banana Republic. If you look at the history of what banana republics are, calling a clothing brand that, is a pretty risky, bold move. But those quirks are what makes something so memorable. You mentioned Frisbee, that’s actually a story I tell in the book. Fred Morrison, who was the inventor of the Frisbee, hated that name. He thought it was the dumbest thing. The original name was called Pluto platters.

Jeremy Miller: So Frisbee was bought by Wham-O. They were the guys who created Hula Hoop and Silly String. And so [Fred Knerr 00:00:22:52], who was one of the founders, went out and he visited Fred Morrison in Connecticut near Yale, and he saw all the kids were calling this thing Frisbee. And it turns out Frisbie was a pie company in Connecticut, and what the kids did before Netflix and internet and iPhones, they would take empty pie tins and throw them around the quad. So they took the name of the pie tins and applied it to these flying saucers. And Fred Knerr was just a brilliant marketer and he saw what the customers were already calling it and took that.

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John Jantsch: So tell me this. Does everything need a name? In other words, should we be naming our processes and our products and our divisions and our job titles? Brand it?

Jeremy Miller: Yes, 100%. I think you can go probably a little too crazy on it, but I would say for something to exist, it needs a name especially in the professional services world, if we’re selling thought leadership. You look at just how you name your systems, how you name your services, not only does it give it gravitas from a customer marketing perspective, it gives it gravitas from an internal perspective. So that if you are talking about your efficiency and the way you deliver customer service, simply by giving that thing a name creates value. And so naming is probably the most important construct of language, because once something has a name, it gains meaning. And if you are deliberate on this, you are making choices of how you are going to grow your business.

John Jantsch: Yeah. And I think sometimes, you said gives it meaning, but it also makes it tangible. It’s almost like, “Oh, here’s proof that we have a 37 step process to make sure that your product or your service gets done right.” Where everybody else is just saying trust us.

Jeremy Miller: Exactly. And in the world of differentiation, especially if we’re looking at small businesses, often we are selling something that somebody else is already selling. So how you describe your services, how you describe what makes you unique and why you do what you do, those simple things of giving them names are what affects meaning and give you credibility when you describe your 37 step process for delighting your customer, then people go, “Oh, that’s why you do that.”

John Jantsch: And I know the answer to this is yes, is there a process for coming up with a name?

Jeremy Miller: 100%.

John Jantsch: You want to share that with us?

Jeremy Miller: Sure. Let me tell you a bit of where it came from. I’m a serial entrepreneur and you are too, and we work with lots entrepreneurs, and naming is one of those vexing things that consumes so much time and every time you find a great name you find someone else has taken it. And so the reason why I wrote this book was I tried to answer the question of, what do I wish I had when I went through that naming process? And so Brand New Name draws on the ideas of the GV sprint and agile project management. And the idea is over the course of two to four weeks, it gives you three stages to build your strategy, generate lots of ideas and test and select the right name for your brand.

Jeremy Miller: And so in stage one we need to build a strategy, what does it mean to have a great name? And how are you going to know it when you see it? And step two, I believe in employee co-creation, which is how do we get everybody on our team to participate and generate as many ideas as we can over the course of five days? And then the hardest part of naming isn’t coming up with ideas, it’s that vetting process. How do we find one that resonates, fits the brand and most importantly, we can own it? And so that’s what the book does. In the span of that book, everything you need to name something, whether it’s a company, a product or service is all there in those pages.

John Jantsch: Go back to number one for me, because I think that’s actually the hardest part for a lot of companies, because they don’t have a strategy anyway. And so a naming strategy is like a subdivision of strategy. What are the actual steps in that?

Jeremy Miller: So what we start off with is defining, what is it you’re naming. And so it’s the simple question of, what are you naming? Is it a company? Is it a product? Is it a service? And then describing it. My first book, Sticky Branding, I talked about this idea called simple clarity, which is the ability to describe who you are, what you do and who you serve in 10 words or less, and so we build on this a little bit. Part of what we look at in developing your strategy is to be able to answer those basic questions. What are we naming? What are the criterias? Who are our customers? How do they buy? Who are our competitors? What are the naming trends in that space? And what is it going to take to stand out?

Jeremy Miller: And so we go through those questions so that you could set some naming principles. But what you said was very interesting, it’s a subset of strategy. Oftentimes though, when we are doing a naming strategy or when I introduce this to somebody, this is the first time they’ve actually ever considered some of these questions as brand, because we’re not necessarily thinking about brand all the time. So naming is the first step for many people to actually ask the deliberate questions of, who are we? Where do we play? How do we win? How do we want to be known? And by simply getting that down on paper, starts to set the guidelines for what it’s going to take to find a brilliant name.

John Jantsch: I’ve worked with a lot of small business owners and we go through the whole strategy thing, and just like Jantsch Communications, I talked about, was a lousy name, I have to deliver the really bad news that we need to change the name of your business. Is that something that … I mean, you’ve probably faced it before, and if the name’s wrong, I mean, I suppose we can live, but we’re not going to get the message across, we’re not going to get the differentiation across. How do you address or approach that idea of maybe the name now is going to be sort of the leading edge of our strategy, because it’s going to be something that we’re going to have to change everything about? I mean, how do you address that?

Jeremy Miller: Face forward and deal with it head on. So we deal with name changes all the time in our practice. And so for example, a large part of my work is with multi generational family businesses, and we did a naming project a couple of years ago where it was called A-1 Shipping Supplies. It was made for the yellow pages basically, but 35 years later, there is no yellow pages and A-1 looks cheesy as hell. Oh, by the way, they’re doing food packaging, primarily not shipping supplies. And you deal with it. When your name is causing dissonance or hurting your credibility or preventing growth, you change it. Now, in their case, they changed their name to Rocketline, and they created a quirky, whimsical name that didn’t have a lot of meaning, but it allowed them to shape what they want to be.

Jeremy Miller: But the key in changing a name is that all that meaning and all those experiences people have had with you are associated with the one name, you have to deliberately pour those contents into the other vessel. And so you have to have a marketing strategy and a communication strategy of how you’re going to convey what your new name is and why you’re changing it to customers, prospects and whoever it is. The nice thing is as a small business, you could probably call up all of your customers and tell them face to face or over the phone why you did it, whereas if you’re talking about a large global or multinational company, it’s a lot more complicated. But generally speaking, it’s not that hard, and so if your name hurts you, change it.

John Jantsch: Is there a place for a transition? In other words, go through two name changes or something? You’ve seen people do that, where they blend the logos or something like that. Does that make sense or does that just make it harder?

Jeremy Miller: I guess you would have to tell me what the strategy is. I think within mergers, that sometimes makes sense, but those are probably larger entities with a larger communication strategy. What I would suggest is go with the name for the brand you want to be. So whatever you look at three, five, 10 years, don’t worry about what’s happening in the next 18 months, think about where you’re going and choose the name for that. What you need, though, in your communication strategy is … Where most people underestimate is how long they should be communicating the change. So they do say a 90 day or a six month campaign to communicate the change, but-

John Jantsch: “We did a press release.”

Jeremy Miller: Yeah. It’s 18 months minimum. 18 months.

John Jantsch: Yeah. You already mentioned this idea of domain names. I mean, have you ever come up with a name, and then first thing you did was look for the domain and just said, “No, it’s a nonstarter, because we can’t get a good name.” I mean, are we at a point where that is dictating branding?

Jeremy Miller: If you asked me this question five years ago, I would have said yes, 100%. Today, no. I think domain names are losing a little bit of relevance. So now, we add a descriptor. So for example, say you wanted to call your company Grant, and you want a grant.com, well I know that’s available right now, but it’s $10,000 a month on lease. I don’t know about you, but I got better ways to spend that kind of money on an annual basis. So what you look at is … So Tesla was Tesla Motors until very recently, or Buffer ran as Buffer app until their second round of funding and they could afford to buy the .com. Focus on creating a great name, and then put a descriptor on it or get creative.

Jeremy Miller: One of my favorites is Zoom, they have zoom.us or Zoom us, so they made their name a verb. The only place people are seeing domain names primarily today is in your marketing collateral and your business cards. When you go to a browser, you type in the word not in the URL, and when you see it on a website or somewhere else, you click the link, or more likely you’re going to be talking to Siri or Alexa and not even saying the URL.

John Jantsch: Yeah. Well, and there’s, as you just mentioned, .us and .ios and all those I think have become pretty … People are very accepting of those. And I think you’re right. I’m sure there’s a zoom.com, I haven’t Googled it, but I’m sure there’s a zoom.com, and so then if somebody has the exact name and a .com, that probably could lead to some confusion.

Jeremy Miller: It could, but it’s like trademarks, are they in the same space and the same category? Like you have Pandora, which is jewelry and Pandora, which is a streaming music service. So you can have multiple companies using the same names, but because they operate in different places, they can get away with it, and especially small businesses. Chances are we are local, and so the fact that there’s someone else named what you’re named in another state, it may not be all that relevant.

John Jantsch: You’re right, the behavior has changed. It used to be .com or nothing else, and I think that now, as you said, it’s not so important that people are typing it, as long as you do the fundamental SEO stuff with it.

Jeremy Miller: Here’s my most fundamental comment to branding, and this is a bit of a flippant, but build a great business. The classic example is you see a restaurant, comes out with brilliant marketing, brilliant ad campaign, beautiful restaurant, great everything, and then you get food poisoning. So the brand is, “Don’t go back to that place, I got food poisoning.” None of the marketing mattered. And I think you could actually start a small business with a terrible name, but do such great work that people love you and they come back and they refer you, and that’s your brand actually. It’s two parts. A brand is based on what you’ve done, so the results that you have delivered to your clients, and branding is what you’re going to do.

Jeremy Miller: Now, if the name starts to hurt you or you grow beyond it, now you need marketing that needs reach and that crappy name doesn’t work for you anymore, absolutely change it, but never lose sight that the quality of your business is the number one predictor of the quality of your brand.

John Jantsch: Yeah. I’ve often said, and listeners of my show will recognize this, that every business has a brand, I think it’s just whether or not they are directing it intentionally, so that goes so much to that. Jeremy, where can people find out more about you and your work and of course, pick up a copy of Brand New Name.

Jeremy Miller: Well, Brand New Name will be sold wherever books are sold. It comes out on October 8th, so Amazon for sure. And the best way to find me is just to Google Sticky Branding. Stickybranding.com is my website, and I’m on all the social networks @stickybranding, and I’d love to connect with everyone.

John Jantsch: Awesome. Thanks for taking the time, Jeremy, and hopefully we’ll see you out there on the road soon.

Jeremy Miller: Awesome. Thanks John.

Transcript of Creating Content that Ranks in Local Search

Transcript of Creating Content that Ranks in Local Search written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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John Jantsch: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today, guests as in plural, are Ian Cantle and Dan Gershenson. They are both marketing consultants and part of the Duct Tape Marketing Consultant network. And they with a couple other consultants in the network have written a book we’re going to talk about today called Content Marketing for Local Search: Create Content That Google Loves and Prospects Devour. So Dan and Ian, thanks for joining us.

Ian Cantle: Thanks for having us.

Dan Gershenson: Thanks for having us.

John Jantsch: So Dan, let’s start off talking about the end of the Bears game last night.

Dan Gershenson: Oh boy. Going to start there, huh? Okay.

John Jantsch: That was probably the wildest one minute of football I think I’ve ever witnessed.

Dan Gershenson: Yeah, yeah. Well, it’s nice to say we have a kicker in Chicago now, isn’t it?

John Jantsch: So depending upon when people are listening to this, I was referencing the Bears and the Broncos played on September 15th. But Dan being from Chicago, I knew I had to throw that in there. All right, let’s talk about this book, shall we?

Dan Gershenson: Yes.

John Jantsch: So first off, I’ll give you a chance to talk about the process itself. You wrote this book with you two, and you had three other co-authors on this. And just as somebody who’s written a book, a number of books myself, I just wonder is that kind of a chaotic process trying to wrangle a sort of similar thread with five contributors?

Dan Gershenson: Yeah, it is. It’s definitely five people is a little bit challenging versus just one or two at most. So it’s a different experience. But you know, we have to give a lot of credit to Ken Tucker, who really spearheaded this whole thing and kind of got things assigned as far as you know, who would tackle what. And it was very collaborative and we got it done. We got it done.

John Jantsch: Yeah. So I suppose a task master is really in order here.

Dan Gershenson: Yeah. Ken was the guy. Ken was the guy to start us off. And everybody kind of pitched in and we kept the focus. So it was good.

John Jantsch: So ostensibly this book is about content marketing because that’s what it says in the title. But then we quickly get to terms like search and Google also in the title. So are we suggesting that those two things are intrinsically linked together?

Ian Cantle: Yeah, I would say they are. You know, the small business and the local businesses that most of us work with that were writing the book find that if, you know, one of your main channels of driving new prospects and customers is really through search engines like Google, being the biggest one. And so having content that resonates with what people are searching for, can really bring in more customers. And as a business owner, that’s what it’s really all about.

John Jantsch: So, you know, I’ve been doing this a long time. Really in fact, I tell people all the time, I started doing this before we had the internet. So you know, all this search stuff and content stuff, you know, is for a lot of people is still relatively new. Even though it’s, you know, people have conceded that it’s not going anywhere. It’s here to stay. But there was a time when we would write for Google. I mean we would put words in there that we thought would attract them. And maybe it was kind of clunky feeling even to the reader. But hey, we wanted to attract the search engine. Obviously in your title you talk about prospects, you know, devouring this content. So there must be something to it that that clearly is focused on them. I mean, how do we kind of manage the connection between Google and prospects loving that content? Or does it just not matter anymore? Has Google gotten so good at developing the content themselves that we need to write for the audience of, you know, eyeballs?

Dan Gershenson: I mean, I always think John, that you’re always kind of wanting to write for humans first. Maybe some other folks out there have a different take. But I always write it from the standpoint of like you’re talking to somebody one on one. Particularly if you’re in the professional services, that’s kind of how you’re going to end up anyway.

John Jantsch: Yeah.

Dan Gershenson: So if you have a little bit more of that human approach, I think someone once called it human to human, not business to business or business to consumer, I think that’s a really good way to go. And then you know, you’re still going to write for Google, you still are going to optimize accordingly. But I’m just a bigger fan of writing for human beings first. And you know what do they think, what are the emotions they go through long before they buy anything of yours? So what are they, you know, what’s going on in their world? So many times when you sit down and interview and talk to people who are potential customers, you get a lot of that good stuff out. And I’d go there first.

John Jantsch: Well, and I guess part of my question also is, I agree with you of course. But I guess part of my question also was, is the reason we wrote for Google was because, you know, Google was a machine and it could only understand certain things and had to feed it. You know, has Google gotten or the search engines gotten so good at understanding the semantic meaning of what we’re writing that, you know, we don’t really need to worry as much about feeding the machine?

Ian Cantle: I think that’s true. I think it has evolved a long way. I think the interesting thing is that when you write for Google, you are writing for the end user that you’re targeting. Because the end result is you want them, when they’re searching for your product or service, you want your content to come up first. And so you’re aligning your writing or your content development with what people are searching for from the beginning. So that’s the people aspect. And Google is the conduit in which we’re working with.

John Jantsch: Absolutely. All right. So both of you work with small business owners. And I’m sure that you, you know, like all marketers, we use our buzzwords now, it’s content marketing, content marketing. What do you think that means to them? I mean, how would you define content or content marketing, you know, to a typical small business?

Dan Gershenson: I, no joke, I say, “Anything that can be written online or offline, I do.” That’s kind of how it’s sometimes has to be said. Because believe it or not, you can say a word like content and they may not know what that really means. And so, but even that, you know, I think as you’ve said many times, it’s not even that definition anymore. It’s a lot of other stuff. From video to community events, a lot of other things are pushing out the definition of what we know to be content. So no, I think that constantly needs to be educated and reeducated out there in the world for people.

John Jantsch: Because I think when content marketing first kind of came on the scene, it really was almost, you know, associated with blogging. You know? And I do think that it has expanded dramatically to the point where you can, and I think we need to broaden it. I would even suggest reviews are part of your content marketing.

Dan Gershenson: Absolutely.

John Jantsch: Even though that’s an element of content that you don’t get to write. But it certainly impacts your marketing. It is content, it impacts your marketing and it impacts your brain.

Ian Cantle: And in the book we do talk about that a little bit about how there’s customer driven content, just like the reviews you’re talking about, John. Where you know, ultimately if you can get your customers to create content for you, that’s a huge win. Because then it’s coming from their perspective, they’re a third party that represents, you know, the other customers and other prospects that are looking for your products and services.

John Jantsch: So one of the things that I know I’ve always had to fight with business owners, and I’d be interesting to get your guys’ take on this, is you know, when business owners produce content, when marketers produce a content, I mean lot of times we want that content to sell something. And so, you know, how do you balance the purely educate, build trust, with at the end of the day, you know, we want somebody to buy, to be a customer. How do you know, how do you balance that with content?

Dan Gershenson: I think sometimes we have to educate them on the marketing hourglass. Really to say content has its place in a lot of different ways. You know, and it would be great if people just read content and said, “I want to buy that.” But they don’t. And sometimes they are in research mode, whether we like it or not. And you know, they may be very well intent to buy, but that may be three, six months, even more. And there’s not a lot we can often do about that except to make sure that we’re keeping touch with them all the time with the right content for the right stage of where they’re making decisions. And so that’s where, you know, many times we have to say okay, what are we doing for the know, like, trust stage of things to kind of get them moved along?

John Jantsch: Yeah. Yeah, because I always kind of joke, but not really, say that you know, it’s very difficult to sell somebody a solution to a problem they don’t know they have. And you know, that’s a lot of what we’re doing in the beginning of that, what you just talked about with content. Is we have to help people understand what their problem is, that we understand what it is. You know, before we can talk about solving it, can’t we?

Dan Gershenson: Yeah. I think, you know, that’s where sometimes you might have like, let’s say for example, an e-newsletter, which could very well be sort of an early stage education piece. You know, they’re not necessarily ready to buy right then and there. But if you’re looking at it purely as well, they’re going to read this union’s letter and start buying things from me, that may be jumping a few steps prematurely. So that’s where they have to get the whole context of where this content falls in.

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John Jantsch: So if I’m reading your book and my burning question is how do I decide what to write about, where would I find that? How would you advise me on what to write about and maybe where to even put that content?

Ian Cantle: Yeah, there’s some really great tips in the book. A lot of it is based on who your ideal client is and really breaking down, just what Dan was saying about the customer journey. And thinking through, part of it that really helps people think through this is if you actually have a customer front of you, most people can naturally figure out through body language and how people are acting and the questions they’re asking, you know, where they are in their buyer’s journey. It’s a little more sterile when it’s in the the digital world. But when we start to work with clients and walk them through that process of, you know, really trying to understand where people are at in their journey, what their biggest problems are, that really helps them get their mind into it and to think about real customers rather than, you know, an avatar of a customer necessarily.

Ian Cantle: But a really easy place to start is frequently asked questions. Because most business owners, they know off by heart, you know, the top 10 questions that prospects or customers ask them. And that’s a really fantastic place to start because those questions usually represent the burning questions that customers or prospects have.

John Jantsch: Yeah and they’re used to getting those out there in the field when they’re trying to sell something too.

Ian Cantle: Yeah.

John Jantsch: So are there structural and technical aspects to getting the most out of your content when it’s placed online?

Dan Gershenson: I’ll tell you really from a structural standpoint, I think there are some pretty great tools to help folks who think that they may have to be a PhD in search engine optimization, you really don’t. I have often used, let’s say SCM rush even has a great tool where you can write something in Word and then plug it right in and it can tell you, “Hey, this needs to be fixed, this needs to be fixed, put some more of these keywords in.” And I think there’s going to be more and more of those types of tools. We’ve seen it with Yoast and in the back end and that makes life easier. So structurally that’s what I go to and say, okay well this will help not only save time, but it’ll actually optimize the whole thing accordingly.

Ian Cantle: Yeah. The one thing I would add to that is tools are only as good as the operator. And so, you know, I often get pulled into situations where people have hired marketers in the past to optimize their content on their websites, but they’re not seeing the results. And so they’ve brought us in as a third party. And when we take a look at it, the people that have optimized it in the past just didn’t understand how the keywords work from a Google standpoint. And so they were punching in whatever they thought was valuable. And sometimes they were competing with their own keywords on their own website.

Ian Cantle: And so there is a technical aspect to it where it really does help to understand what is it that Google’s trying to accomplish. And then using the tools appropriately. But I agree with Dan, there’s so many new tools popping up that if you can understand the basics of how Google works and what it’s looking for and how to use those tools well, I think there’s a lot of opportunities. But hiring an expert is a quicker way to get to your end result.

John Jantsch: So I’ll go to a question I’m sure you get, I’ve gotten numerous, numerous times. How much content do we need? How often do we need it?

Dan Gershenson: I’m not going to give you the, “It depends,” even though it is kind of it depends. You know, I will say this much, we are seeing more and more trends of going longer on content than going less than content. So the thing that really kind of annoys me is when I hear people say, “Well, nobody really reads anymore.” There’s just not any truth to that. There’s Neil Patel I think did a study not too long ago that said, you know, 2,000 words or more sometimes can be a really good thing. And so you don’t necessarily have to always do these, you know, 300, 400 word, you know, quick kind of blog posts. You can maybe spend a lot of time doing, I believe you’ve called it epic content. Where it’s something big, like a big idea kind of thing. But it really just keeps paying off for a long, long time. And so that can be worth it too. You don’t have to do that every time out. But that might be a good thing to consider it monthly or quarterly, perhaps, to go with everything else.

John Jantsch: So I already alluded to this idea of I consider reviews content, but you know, you don’t get to write those reviews on third party sites. So how does a business owner kind of reconcile the fact that they need that content, it’s become social proof, in some cases it’s become, you know, I know my kids, I mean, they look at the reviews for, you know, if they’re traveling or something and they’re looking for a restaurant, the reviews, you know, are where they start. So for certain businesses it’s live or die. So you know, how do we treat that sort of in the content puzzle?

Ian Cantle: It’s a great question. And there’s kind of two aspects to that. One is the getting the reviews. So somehow creating a proactive process for that where you’re within the solicitation rules that the different platforms have, you’re asking your customers, your satisfied customers to leave your reviews. And then there’s the other aspect of it of how do you leverage those reviews to their greatest impact so that more and more people see them? So, you know, on the first side asking customers is a great way to get reviews. Because most businesses actually don’t even do that. So it’s, you know, businesses can also leave a link on their email footer to, you know, Google in order to leave a review. But then there’s lots of ways to leverage those on social media as social posts. So, you know, “Here’s an example of what my customers feel about me.” And just showing the different five star reviews you get as a business. Because that just gives it greater exposure. And funny enough, a lot of people like to like and share those. They’re pretty popular.

John Jantsch: Yeah. So let’s throw another one in there that you don’t, I mean you do have control over, but a lot of people kind of ignore some of the opportunities. And that’s Google My Business. So what role does content on your Google My Business page come back into play then for your overall content marketing?

Dan Gershenson: I think it’s huge. I think it’s one of the most underrated tools right now that is out there, platforms that’s out there. You know, nobody really knows the magic formula for why sometimes they get in the Google three pack of local results other than the fact that if you do certain things like completely fill out your profile, your Google My Business from top to bottom. And you probably got some nice keywords in there from research. Doing what Ian said, as far as making reviews part of your process. Good things can happen. And so it’s kind of the convergence of all of these various factors.

Dan Gershenson: But you know, the content part of Google My Business is really making sure that you’re really filling out everything about your services that you can. And it’ll even allow now, you know, a little bit of video and things like that. So there’s ample opportunity to make sure that that is a great experience right then and there for somebody who comes across your business. Because let’s face it, I think Google is trying to, you know, make sure that you go to their place and nowhere else. So Google My Business is going to be around for a long, long time. I don’t think this is going away.

John Jantsch: Yeah. And they’ve, I’ve recently added posts and descriptions and you can put products and services on there. My take’s always been, with Google My Business, is that if Google puts it on there, they want you to fill it out. And they will never tell you, “We’re going to reward you by ranking you.” But I think that it’s not much of a leap to say that they are paying attention to that content, that data.

Ian Cantle: Absolutely. One of the terms that I love to tell people, because people are asking those questions all the time, is that Google loves Google. So if you can do anything on a Google platform, you will not be hurting yourself, you will be helping yourself. So I agree 100%. It’s an important platform that we can’t ignore.

John Jantsch: We’re talking about the book Content Marketing for Local Search. So Dan and Ian why don’t you tell people where they can find a copy of this book should they want to read it?

Dan Gershenson: Sure. If you go on Amazon and it’s up there right now. It is available, Content Marketing for Local Search is the first part of the title of the book. And just go on Amazon, look for five great authors: myself, Ian and three other folks. And you’ll get a lot out of it.

John Jantsch: Well, and we’ll have a link in the show notes to where people can find both the Kindle and print versions that will be available by the time you’re listening to this. So Ian, Dan, thanks for joining us and I will hopefully see both of you sometime soon.

Ian Cantle: Thank you, John.

Dan Gershenson: Thanks, John.

Transcript of How to Discover and Nurture Your Creativity

Transcript of How to Discover and Nurture Your Creativity written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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John Jantsch: Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Chase Jarvis. He is an award-winning artist, entrepreneur, one of the most influential photographers over the past decade, founder of CreativeLive. Some of you may remember that I’ve had a couple programs on CreativeLive. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today, Creative Calling: Establish a Daily Practice, Infuse Your World with Meaning, and Succeed in Work + Life. Chase, thanks for joining me.

Chase Jarvis: John, super-good to be on the show. What is it, long-time listener, first-time caller or something? Happy to be on. Thanks for having me.

John Jantsch: Let’s talk a little bit about CreativeLive, if you don’t mind. For listeners that might not be familiar with it, just to kind of tee up the quick what is it?

Chase Jarvis: Sure, it’s the world’s largest learning platform specifically for creators and entrepreneurs. That’s our target. Those are the people that are in our tribe. They identify as creator, or entrepreneurial, or creative curious, or entrepreneurial curious, and it’s where folks like yourself, like Tim Ferriss, Brené Brown, Sir Richard Branson, Pulitzer Prize winners, New York Times Best Sellers, the best of the best go to teach. Specifically, the high-quality, high-caliber experts that we have on the platform, the super-high quality production, and then the area of focus, again, for creators, and entrepreneurs, small businesses, and side hustlers that is a… It’s where we go. We got more than 10 million people on the platform. It’s a thriving community, and it’s been around for 10 years. It feels like a blink on the inside, here, but it’s a great, great community. We’d love to have anybody come take a peek. You can either buy a-la-cart classes or subscription. There’s 24 hours a day, seven days a week, there’s free content there, too.

John Jantsch: I, as I mentioned, did a, as you and I were talking before we jumped on here, five six years ago did a program on Duct Tape Marketing. I’ll will say, I mean, the most fun I’ve had doing that, obviously, the most professional… It was actually a little brutal, though because we did 18 hours over three days live. That was a little brutal, but very fun. I have a confession or admission. Craig Swanson, your co-founder, is that what you’d call him, told me that 10 years ago when you guys were cooking up CreativeLive that he bought one of my first courses, which was, getting ready to date myself here, a three-ring binder with CDs and that kind of thing sent to him for marketing purposes. I always kind of… He may have been completely BSing me, but I always hold that up as one of my greatest honors was that I was there at the beginning in some fashion.

Chase Jarvis: You were. Yeah. We talked about it and how to put your products out there in the world, all those entrepreneurial secrets that you’ve been cheering with your tribe for years, we definitely deployed them in launching CreativeLive.

John Jantsch: Well, that’s one of my biggest badges of honor, there.

Chase Jarvis: Aw, come on [inaudible] I’ll take it.

John Jantsch: In Creative Calling, I got the sense that maybe we need to define, or redefine, what creativity even is or means for a lot of folks.

Chase Jarvis:  Yeah. I’d love to, and that’s one of the points that underscores the book. I believe a couple of things, and it’s really clear in the book. First of all, that there’s creativity inside of every person. Culturally, we have historically thought of creativity equaling art so activities, painting and drawing. Just know, now, that that’s not true, that creativity is everything. It is the decision. Anytime you’re putting ideas together to form something new and useful, that is creativity. You created dinner last night. You’re creating a family right now. You baked a cake. You are building a business. All these things are wildly creative. By extension, it’s easy to see then that creativity is in every person. We have it at birth. It’s one of the things that separates us from the other species on the planet. It’s also something that gives us unlimited possibility. Right? Limitless, rather.

Chase Jarvis: To me, that has historically been a challenge of creativity and why people… I mean, just think of your own experience as you’re listening to this and you go back. You were either sort of anointed, oh you’re creative or you’re not creative. Or when I was told, I was in second grade, and they said, “Chase, you should focus on sports, not on art.” I carried that with me for 20 years. I’m trying to [inaudible] and redefine around creativity around what it really is, which is the ability to create something new and useful. Look, all you have to do is ask any first grade classroom, “Who wants to come to the front of the room and draw me a picture, or who wants to create anything,” and every hand goes up. It’s very clear, just empirically, that creativity’s in every person.

Chase Jarvis: The second principle is really that creativity is a habit. It’s not a skill. It’s a way of being in the world. It’s a way of operating. It’s a practice, not a product. A good way of thinking about it is it’s a muscle that we develop. Like all muscles, the more you use them, the stronger they get. If you believe, one, that everyone’s creative in some way, shape, or form, two, that we have this creative muscle and that if we use it more, we develop it, the last thing I ask you to believe is, and this might be the part that is jump, where it’s the same exact thing.

Chase Jarvis: Creating businesses, creating a meal, playing the piano, drawing, taking photographs, writing, the muscles that we use in doing that, in small projects on a regular basis, I would even say daily, we’re creating on a daily basis, it’s the same set of muscles that we use to create our life. It’s just at a different scale. To me, that’s the big leap that the book… It takes us beyond creativity with a small C to think about creativity as this amazing human super power.

John Jantsch: So would you admit, though, that there are, I’m not sure of the right term, I’m going to say forms of creativity. In other words, there are definitely people that can look at nothing and create something from it. I’ve never been able to do that, but I can look at something and create something else. Does that makes sense? Am I talking in circles? I think that’s where, I think, a lot of people have to come to grips with is that this muscle, or whatever it is that you’re talking about, takes so many shapes and forms. But is there a common thread, maybe, that kind of unites all of that?

Chase Jarvis: In the same way that we learn in different ways. Right? Some people are visual. Some are auditory. Some are really tactile. The same is true for creativity. It takes different forms, and it usually has to do with some things in our childhood, or our upbringing, or our particular DNA, but to me, I’m agnostic to how you best activate it. To me, that’s a personal exploration. In the book, I invite you and show you some ways of going about doing that. I’m trying to get you to flip the bit. There are people that… We were, again, sort of categorized, usually really early as kids. My second grade teacher told me that I should focus on sports. Second grade, and I listened to her. It’s understandable because the people around us, our parents, our peers, our teachers, our career counselors, they have our best interests in mind in their mind, but it’s doesn’t always translate to what we actually should be doing or what’s true for us. Even, as either young people or sometimes very late in life… I did learn this until well into my 20s, that, basically, how to listen to that intuition.

Chase Jarvis: This is the calling part of the book, and when I say creative calling, it’s not necessarily like, “I was called to be a painter.” It’s, “I am a creative person and there’s a way that I’m supposed to express my creativity in the world. Maybe it’s building a business, writing a book, or any number of ways.” Culture has all these shoulds that we should be doing. Right? We should get this kind of job. We should make this much money. What I’m trying to get us to do is to unlearn that, and learn to listen to that whisper that we all have inside of us, and then take action. For you, John, you can look at something and make something else, wildly creative. The act of taking literally nothing and making something, that’s maybe just a slightly different angle, but fundamentally, it’s the same muscle. That’s what we want to strengthen.

John Jantsch: I’ve always suggested that curiosity is really such a huge driver of any success that I’ve had. I do think that, and there’s a lot been written about this lately, but do you think there’s a real link between that idea of being curious and being creative?

Chase Jarvis: It’s the same thing. All I’m asking you to do… The difference of curiosity is intellectual. I think creativity is active. The way I talk about it in the book is action over intellect. If you’re wondering if you’re creative, you can sit there and think about all the ways you might be creative or you can just start writing. You can just start writing, figuring out the business plan. You need to take action in order to explore that creativity. You’re absolutely right. They’re super-tightly intertwined. To me, that’s the thing that most people miss is go back to all the shoulds that the culture tells us, what’s been missing from the narrative is that, historically, creativity’s been this whimsical thing that you’re naïve or at least slightly crazy if you pursue it. But I argue just the opposite, that it’s so foundational. It’s as fundamental as exercise and nutrition. It’s what separates us from the other species on the planet.

Chase Jarvis: Ultimately, therefore, it’s as practical as hell. It’s super-practical. If you can create new neural pathways, and you can find ways to connect unlikely things, or, in John’s case, you can look at something and see how it could be something else, the more you start to use that muscle, the more options open up in front of you. It’s a pretty, from a logical extension perspective, it’s not a big leap. It’s just a bigger cultural narrative than we’ve been sold. That’s part of what I’m trying to get people to do. The reality about the curiosity part is that we all have these moments in our past where things were in line with the way we saw them for ourselves where we were listening to that whisper or that call that’s inside of us that we should be doing something. It’s when life felt effortless, when you were around people that supported you. Whether that’s at a particular job, or a time of life, or when you were doing something in your past, I’m just suggesting we listen to that and do more of it. In your word it might be curiosity. In my word, it’d be creativity, but we walk to that thing. We explore it through action, not just intellect.

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John Jantsch: I want to get into a couple of the actual practices to develop these habits but I want to ask one more question around that. I think a lot of us lose this ability to be curious and creative because we’re just going through the day, slugging through our stuff. Life comes at you and you’re not practicing that. To what degree does a level of paying attention, mindfulness, come into establishing these habits?

Chase Jarvis: It’s massive. I call it the creative mindset. Any sort of mindfulness around it, it very much has to do with intention. You’re going to go home, and you’re going to cook dinner tonight. Ostensibly, there’s two ways you can go about it. You can think of what you’re creating as okay, I just need to execute this thing, to your point, get through my list or whatever.

John Jantsch: Right.

Chase Jarvis: Then, there could be a moment of awareness, literally a moment, where you do one thing differently. You change something. You add a spice. You present it in a different way because a lot of us, we cook the same things all the time because it’s easy. We get in a habit of doing that. It’s the simple act of changing that just a little bit, and then doing that on a regular basis through awareness every day, that you realize that you actually have agency over your life. It’s sort of creativity with a capital C. In these small, daily ways, awareness and practicing it, so, again, awareness of hey, look it… I can either just bust out this meal or I can change one thing, present it in a more beautiful way, fill in the blank, whatever it means for you. Then, if you did that three or four times throughout your day, you start to realize that you have this powerful agency over your life.

Chase Jarvis: The cool thing is this. I’m not asking you to move to Paris to get a new set of friends. No berets, no cigarettes, no paints. This is not required. That’s an old, archaic definition of creativity. So is the fact this, the idea of the starving artist. That’s just a horrible myth that has no real bearing on creativity. When you look at it, in fact, this is the part that also kills me, you look… Who are the people that inspire you? Who are, even if it’s just your… It doesn’t have to be Richard Branson. Maybe it’s your neighbor. They live with integrity and they’re incredibly mindful. They tend a beautiful garden. Whoever the people that you look up to, or aspire to, or… Here’s the thing. The life that you’re looking at, it didn’t just happen. It was created.

Chase Jarvis: We talk about finding happiness. We don’t find… You don’t stumble into that. You create it. You cultivate it. With just a simple shift in mentality and, to go back to your original question about how do we do that, it absolutely is an awareness. If you start to become aware of it. It’s amazing how many opportunities you have throughout your day. We’re not talking about adding extra time and going to the art supply store. Sure, you can do that, and that would be helpful to have a practice that looked like that, but it’s not required.

John Jantsch: Let’s talk about some of the practices that you litter throughout the book that help people develop some of these habits. What are some of the things that people could inject into their routine that would shake it up a bit?

Chase Jarvis: I look for things, initially, again it’s a… The most important thing is the awareness that… You already mentioned that. It’s sort of like if you have a mindfulness practice or a meditation practice, the goal is not to keep your mind from wandering. The mind is designed to wander. The meditation practice is actually bringing your attention back to your mantra or whatever your focus should be. That’s the same thing with the creative practice. You can’t just be constantly in open, creative mode. Otherwise, you might not get as many things done as you wanted to get done. But if you can, when you realize that you’re not in that creative mind space or the creative mindset that I talk about in the book, the simple act of returning to it on a regular basis.

Chase Jarvis: The way I like to start is small. I’m not asking you… Say you have a vision for yourself like someday… I’m an engineer right now, and I work at Google, but someday I want to open a café. The distance bet where you are right now and a café is pretty far. It’s probably a couple thousand hours’ worth of work. When people think about that, they get depressed, and frustrated, and they know there’s too many hurdles between here and there. But what if you started baking, and every Sunday you cranked out a few scones, and you sought out some single-origin coffee, and you held brunch for your close friends, every Sunday for four or five weeks. That is an amazing first step toward getting oriented around your life as a café owner. I would argue more importantly, and more fundamentally, to explore your relationship with cooking.

Chase Jarvis: The same could be true with building a business. Right? You don’t actually have to get the POS system, and rent a space, and have all these things to create a small business. So what would a small business, what’s the minimum viable product? What’s a way to get started simply? If you apply that same thinking to a day, it’s what is the lightest way that you can embrace that creativity. I talk about taking pictures just intentionally. One, or two, or three, or five pictures on your afternoon walk maybe at lunch time or on your commute. Morning pages is a great way to engage your mind. This is widely written about. Just a few minutes of time in the morning to write out what you intend for the day or to create something simple. It can take any of these forms or the, for example, the concept that I mentioned earlier about just how to think about creating the meal just a little bit different than you would otherwise.

Chase Jarvis: If you can do that in small, useful ways on a regular basis, you start to realize that it is actually a muscle, and it starts to become more natural. The more natural it becomes, the more leverage you can create in your life.

John Jantsch: One of the practices that I’ve intentionally done that I think probably fits into your practice is… I’m a child of the ’70s music. That’s how old I am. It’d be very natural for me to go into my Neil Young and Jackson Browne, and just listen to that all the time. I intentionally can seek out Spotify Release Radar and just make, not make myself because I enjoy it, but really make sure that I’m listening to the new stuff that’s coming out. I feel like that… I don’t know that I look at it as, “Oh, this is going to make me more creative,” but I do feel like it keeps you more relevant, maybe. Would that fit into, I mean, would that be a type of a typical sort of simple thing?

Chase Jarvis: Yeah. That’s a great thing. The only thing I would change rather than that being a little bit passive is what if you’re picking up the guitar for five minutes? I don’t know if music was ever in your past.

John Jantsch: I play the guitar. How did you know?

Chase Jarvis: See, that’s the thing when you talk about curiosity. We can all find something in our past that really brought us a lot of joy. When life got “practical,” then we had to, for some reason, we had to stop doing that. I don’t know what we go doing instead, pay attention to the stock market, or grocery shopping, or I find it’s hard to-

John Jantsch: Facebook.

Chase Jarvis: … Yeah, Facebook. I find it hard to believe that those could actually be more important than cultivating the most powerful muscle that the human has at their disposal, which is their creativity.

John Jantsch: What about teaching, speaking writing? I always find that that forces me to innovate, forces me to be creative, and to just go out and see what other people are doing.

Chase Jarvis: Absolutely, and that hits on two really important points. One, how that broader definition of creativity really is conversing and collaborating on an idea. Teaching a subject, that’s a wildly creative… I mean, just think of the most important and powerful motivating teachers you had in your career. They were wildly creative, and they presented the material in a dynamic way. That’s part of what you loved about them. I think, A, you hit the nail on the head on that on. Then, as a corollary to that, community aspect is huge. I put the book into four parts, a framework, if will. It’s a creative process that works for any individual project, building a business, or baking a cake, or anything to living your life. That’s the structure is IDEA.

Chase Jarvis: IDEA. The first one is imagine what’s possible. The second one is design a system of steps to get you there. The third one is E, is execute. You’re executing that plan. None of this should be really surprising. This is what we all do every day with every project. The part that I think is missing, and which you touched on, is A. I talk about it, the amplify. What we need is we need a community to help our ideas fly. Nothing happens in a vacuum. For those people that you’re looking to your left and to your right, and their creative ideas whether it’s a business or some venture, when they’re successful and you’re not or when they’re getting traction and you’re struggling, the reality is probably they’ve spent a lot more time and/or put more effort into cultivating a community that’s both ready to receive their work and is happy to be a participant in the collaboration between creator and receiver of that gift.

John Jantsch: Visiting with Chase Jarvis. He is the author of Creative Calling. I’m going to throw one more out for you to let you categorize this. I’ve been getting a lot of creative ideas from people I don’t agree with lately. By actually practicing empathy and trying to understand maybe where I’m wrong, trying to understand where they’re coming from, what role does listening to play really just in general in your creative calling?

Chase Jarvis: I mean, listening functions… First of all, it’s a hugely powerful lever. It functions in two ways. The first way is in being open to ideas [inaudible] them. Right? You talked about being-

John Jantsch: Yep.

Chase Jarvis: … sort of like having [inaudible] by not being hard. The reality is that everything around you was created. We forget that. This is how we’ve put creativity in the weirdest box. Everything around you, if you’re jogging when you’re listening to this, the park bench you just ran by, the light pole, the food you just had, the can of Red Bull that you’re drinking right now. Everything was designed. It means it was first envisioned, and then it was designed, and then someone built it. Usually it came out in a drawing first. Whether it’s listening or just observing, that’s a huge piece of the creative process.

Chase Jarvis: We need some raw input in order to create an output. Listening is a great form of that, and it also does exactly what you talked about. This is sort of point two, is I like saying, “If listening is meaningful to you, what if you’re listening to other people? I like to be the fan that I wish I had.” It goes back to that idea of community. Right? If you want to more likes on your Facebook posts, or your Instagram posts, or maybe a better example is you want more people to use your product, what are you doing to use the products of others in your peer group, your friends? What are you doing to provide feedback, and to support, and show up? That’s part of… It’s not in a transactional way, but in a way of building community over time that whether you’re listening or you’re contributing to what someone is saying with a product or an idea by participating in that product, it all matters. I think community is a huge piece of this process that we overlook and, specifically, how it ties into listening.

John Jantsch: So, Chase, where can people out more about your work, about CreativeLive, about Creative Calling?

Chase Jarvis: Creative Calling, it’s wherever books are sold. It’s dropping right now. If you pre-order, we’re doing a really cool thing at CreativeLive. You’ll get access to an exclusive class. I’ll have some super-fancy, world-class guests, and that happens… You just go to… Buy it wherever you want to buy it on the internet. If you go to Creativecalling.com, there’s a couple different links there. One link will get you to the CreativeLive class where you can just upload your receipt. That will allow you to be a participant in that. Again, that’s probably the best stuff around the book. CreativeLive is just Creativelive.com, and I’m @Chasejarvis all over the internet.

John Jantsch: Well, Chase, it was great catching up with you. Hopefully, we’ll bump into you next time I’m out on the road.

Chase Jarvis:  Awesome. Looking forward to it. Thanks a lot. I’m excited about what you’re working on, too. You’re always up to cool stuff, and I appreciate you having me as a guest on the show.

John Jantsch: Well, thanks, Chase.

Transcript of Developing Habits to Become a Master Influencer

Transcript of Developing Habits to Become a Master Influencer written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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John Jantsch: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Jason Harris. He is the CEO of award-winning creative agency Mekanism and the co-founder of the Creative Alliance. But he’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today called The Soulful Art of Persuasion: The 11 Habits That Will Make Anyone a Master Influencer. So Jason, welcome to the show.

Jason Harris: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

John Jantsch: When I first got sent this book, I was a little nervous because if I’m going to develop 11 new habits, how many habits am I going to have to break?

Jason Harris: Well, you know, some of those habits-

John Jantsch: I mean bad habits. I mean, of course.

Jason Harris: Of course bad habits, but some of those habits you’re already going to naturally be good at. So yeah, hopefully it’s not too taxing.

John Jantsch: So, let’s define… you and I were talking before we started the show, especially in the context of the way business is done today. What actually is a master influencer?

Jason Harris: So you know, I define master influencer… it’s a great question because you typically, sometimes when you hear the word word influencer in the marketing advertising sector, you think of someone on YouTube or someone using social media to make a point or build an audience. But to me, we’re all influencers in our own way and every day we have these micro inflection points of persuasion, whether it’s at work and you’re getting someone to buy off on your idea or an interview where you’re landing a job. Or you’re trying to convince your significant other to take a vacation you want to take, or your kids to get ready for school, or your teacher to take your assignment late.

Jason Harris: Whatever it might be, in all walks of life we’re all sort of having these micro moments of persuasion all day long. And to me the idea is that any one of us can get better at influencing the people we’re trying to win over by these learned behaviors or habits. And so to me, an influencer, all of us are influencers in one way or another. All of us are persuading all day long and we can be better or worse depending on our viewpoint.

John Jantsch: So I like that you use habits because I think a lot of people think about influence and they quickly go to techniques and tricks and tips even. But let me ask you this, so while I like the idea of habits, I think some people might question what is soul got to do with it?

Jason Harris: So soul to me is the crux of the whole book, but to me it’s the foundation of how you move through influence and how you move through these habits because soul to me is the idea that you’re coming at it from a place of authenticity and from your true core and from your belief system, and you’re being a true persuader by building trust. And to me, soul is all about your character and what you stand for, and without that persuasion and these habits could come across as sales gimmicks. But if it’s coming from who you are as a core, that soulful piece is the piece that makes it different.

John Jantsch: So sometimes people learn better this way. What would you say the soulful art of persuasion is not?

Jason Harris: It is not? I don’t think it’s that… it’s not a book on how to close a quick deal or make a quick sale. It’s not an always be closing book. That’s what it’s not.

John Jantsch: All right, so let’s dig into a couple of them. You break the 11 habits into four practices or behaviors. I’m forgetting-

Jason Harris: I call them principles.

John Jantsch: Principles, right. So the first one, be original, which of course is not an original thought necessarily, right? I mean everybody kind of gets that. But I think what I love about the way you’ve broken it down is it’s one of those things that it’s such a puzzle. I mean, how do I be original? Okay. You be yourself. Well that’s not very original. Or that’s not very creative or that’s not very whatever I say it is. So how do you get this? And we love these words like authenticity and things today. I mean, how do we actually do this?

Jason Harris: Well, the founding concept behind being original is that you’re coming from a place of honesty and you’re giving people a real glimpse of yourself. Your unique personality, your idiosyncrasies. You wear those on your sleeves or sleeve, I should probably say. But it’s about understanding who you are, and if you don’t fundamentally know why you’re different than everyone else, and it’s that famous Oscar Wilde quote, “Be yourself; everyone else is already taken,” that’s at the core of it.

Jason Harris: And it all starts, the principle and the habits falling underneath that principle all start with you leaning into your true character and you shouldn’t have a work persona or a school persona, and then your real personality comes out when you’re with your three closest friends. The idea of being original is that you’re always coming from this authentic place and people understand who you are, what makes you tick.

Jason Harris: You lean into all of those characteristics on all of those things that make you different. So that’s at the heart of it. And there’s more ways that I talk about in the book of how you can do that, like storytelling. The persuasive power of storytelling is one of those, and that’s really all about understanding stories from your life that made you the person that you are. It’s about talking about role models that inspired you and why. It’s talking about… even pop culture movies and books that speak to you, and the reason why they speak to you. Those are all part of… makes up who you are as a person.

John Jantsch: I think there’s a lot of pressure on people to not be themselves because let’s face it, some people feel like, “I’m not that influential. I’m not that interesting. The real me is kind of boring, so I have to put on a mask and be the influential me.” So what do you say to that person that feels like, “Hey, no, I have to have this different game when I’m in front of the team and I’m trying to sell them.”

Jason Harris: I think that’s patently untrue. I think people, even if you find that your real personality might be a little bit boring. I think you would lean into the fact that you’re more of a stoic person by nature or you’re more straight forward, but sort of play that up, like lean in and push as hard as you can on the things that you’re trying to avoid. People today have a really, really good bullshit detector, and so if you’re putting on a mask and you’re trying to win over your team by acting in a way that you aren’t really, because people see you at work, they’re going to know who you are in your real life. I think that will go against soulful persuasion because you’re being an actor and unless you’re a really hell of a good actor, it’s not going to be coming from an authentic place and it’s going to have the opposite effect of inspiring people.

John Jantsch: Yeah, and I think we’ve all encountered somebody that we maybe just completely disagree with their point of view or how they approach things. But we can appreciate the fact that that’s who they are and they’re just being who they are. And I have a… I hope he’s not listening. I have a neighbor that just says the most straightforward stuff that you’re like, “Wow, did you really say that?” But then you’re like, he does… That’s him not being filtered. That’s him. And I can actually appreciate that in some ways, even if I don’t fully agree with what he’s saying.

Jason Harris: Yeah, that’s a good point. And if your neighbor’s trying to inspire a team, he should be up front about, “Hey I know I’m super straightforward and this is super base, but this is the way that I approach things and here’s why.” And I think it’s about showing your… it’s like opening the kimono and letting people really see the real you and that’s the most powerful thing you can do. People respect that.

John Jantsch: So there’ve been countless books on this idea of storytelling, and you touched on it already a little bit, but would you say that in your experience, people that have mastered this art of being an influential, can I have a couple core stories that they lean on that really say a lot about what they believe?

Jason Harris: Yeah, definitely. And those should be memorized and practiced and rehearsed and they should become… that’s part of the habitual nature, is it’s ingrained in you so you can call on them at any time. You make a good point, you don’t have to have a list of 30 stories that are right for any moment, but you have to have a handful that you can call on when the time’s right that let people know a little bit about you.

Jason Harris: And at work we have a lot of… built an ad agency here and we have a lot of stories through building the company that are folklore that we tell from time to time when there’s new people that join us that the story is a metaphor for the beliefs that we have and they get passed down. And those are really important in an organization or for your personal brand that you have those personal stories and those antidotes. Even if you don’t have a ton of those, you can still transport people through storytelling by telling familiar stories that are either books or films or mythology that speak to you and you can articulate why they speak to you and why those are important lessons. And sometimes even a familiar story can really help persuade people because they, “Oh, I know this one, I can relate to this one,” versus a story that only you know about.

John Jantsch: So you mentioned this earlier and you have a whole chapter on this idea of ‘never be closing’. There’s no question that that habit will make you more likable. Will it make you ultimately more effective if your job is to meet a quota?

Jason Harris: Yeah, well that… I get this question a lot because ‘never be closing’ to me is the idea of letting go of short term transactional thinking and focus on building meaningful relationships. And I think business is a marathon, not a sprint. And if your goal is to hit those quotas and get your bonus and go quarter to quarter, you might do that for some time and you might hit those goals and you might follow the Glengarry Glen Ross principles and you might close a lot of deals because you’re just trying to get them to sign and you’re trying to hit that number in the spreadsheet. But over time, losing out on a couple of those bonuses, maybe feeling like you’re falling behind will ultimately pay off in compound interest over time. Because this idea of never be closing means you’re doing what’s right for the client or customer and you’re building meaningful relationships, and a lot of it is spending that energy in relationship building even if you’re not sure that there’s an immediate sales to be had or immediate goal, but over time they will respect you more.

Jason Harris: You will keep those relationships going. They will become referrals for you and you will end up being way more successful following that path than playing the short game. I think playing the long game is ultimately where success comes from in business. So we’ve all been down and out and had to do that one sale or we were going to… our business was in trouble or we were going to go out of business, but I truly believe that not hitting those goals or failing a little bit or having to lay people off or not getting that promotion because you didn’t hit those numbers, but focusing on playing the long game with those relationships, it might not be that you’re going to hit those huge jumps in the short term. But in a marathon you’re going to win out.

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John Jantsch: Yeah, and I think that’s a point worth repeating that everything you talk about in this book is really for somebody who’s playing the long game and not… you don’t develop habits of becoming a master influencer because you did some thing. It’s really a way to live your life, isn’t it?

Jason Harris: It’s an approach to life and it’s approach to relationships that and why. I love that you picked up on habits and how that’s different because these can be learned habits. We’re not all born telling great stories, just like we’re not all born being open about ourselves, or we’re not all born as generous people or some of the other principles, but you’re going to naturally have some of those already. But the other ones, the other habits you have to work on, and by working on them, like building any muscle over time, they become habitual and natural, and you don’t have to think about them anymore. But you have to work on them and they’re not going to… you’re not going to read this book and all of a sudden you’re Mr Persuader, Mr and Mrs Persuader. But if you look at the ones that you need to hone in on and you really make it a habit to practice those, they will become natural to you over time.

John Jantsch: And I think it’s a great point. I think a lot of people look at a book like this and think, “Okay, I have to do all these things.” And really, if you adopted one or two of these habits, actually at a level far greater than you do today, you’ve made progress, haven’t you?

Jason Harris: You’ve got. Yeah, you’ve made leaps and bounds of progress and that’s why this book to me is action oriented. It’s not a bunch of case studies about how people successfully persuaded someone else because that doesn’t help the reader. These are designed to really, they’re sort of illustrative examples and research and psychology examples. But at the end of the day there’s concrete ways that people can work on these skills. And it’s really, for me, by trial and error because I’m 20 something years into advertising and marketing career where I’ve failed plenty of times, and I’ve gone after short term games and I’ve let relationships drop to zero and I’ve done all these mistakes. And it’s only by seeing that from the lens of what’s worked that I was able to put this down.

John Jantsch: Well you started to wander into the next question I was going to ask you, is there a habit in the list of 11, and of course people can go to your website, they can go to Amazon and other places and see actually the 11 listed. But is there a habit that’s hardest for you?

Jason Harris: I would say for me the hardest habit was this idea of giving something away in every interaction, which is under the principle of generous, which is the general idea behind that one is that whenever you cross paths with someone you should always try to leave them a little better off than they were. And so whatever you give it should be about them. So it could be give your time, advice, it can be connecting them with someone else. It can even be stuff, it can be gifts. It could be when you pick up an interesting book that you read, you buy one for someone else. It can be sending them a text of something that you saw versus just posting on social media for everyone. It’s telling people that you’re thinking about them. Those are acts of generosity and for me I would not really always be thinking about other people in that way.

Jason Harris: I would be more self aware and focused on the task that I need to do. And if connecting someone with that person wasn’t paying off for me, I didn’t see the value in it. Or finding that half hour for someone to come in to my office or for me to take a phone call and give someone advice. I would say that I was too busy and that was really, really hard for me to change that mentality of being habitually generous and giving, giving something away because you don’t know, it’s not a clear connection of where that generosity pays off.

Jason Harris: You just have to put in to the universe and know that it does always pay off in some way. Whether it pays off by you feeling good about being a better person or it pays off by a business lead down the road. It does always pay off into something, and that was something I had to really learn because I wasn’t connecting it to what could possibly happen in the future. I was looking at it as, “Well, my time is valuable and this person can find someone else to get advice from or another connection. I don’t have time for it,” and so that was something I really had to work hard at, really hard at.

John Jantsch: Yeah, I had a guest on a previous show talk about this similar concept and when you’re trying to form these habits, he had what I thought was kind of a neat tip. So based on what you just talked about, this idea of every time you have a meeting, have this in mind or have something that you can give and he actually put them in his calendar. So when he had meetings with people scheduled, he’d actually look at his calendar ahead of time, say “Okay, what can I give here?” And then he would get it ahead of time. And I thought that is… once you adopt that habit, that is a very practical, tactical way to live it.

Jason Harris: Yeah, and it really… I’ll tell you a quick story. I have a thing in the book called the million dollar hoodie. And this is when it crystallized for me, I had met someone from Ben and Jerry’s at a conference and I was like, “Oh, this guy… I really like this guy,” and took his card. I sent him some Mekanism hoodies from my agency. He wore that hoodie all the time. It was very soft, comfortable. He liked it, whatever. It had our logo on it. 10 months later they were looking for a new agency and just because he was wearing that and someone had mentioned about the hoodie, he was like, “Oh yeah, I met this guy from this agency.” He put us into the pitch. We won the business and we’ve been working on it for six years and that’s when I thought, if a hoodie can generate a win and I wasn’t thinking about that at the time, habitually doing that.

Jason Harris: And whenever we go to any business meeting now, we’re always bringing little gifts, whether it’s a notebook or a hoodie or sending people books afterwards or a follow up, something. It really makes a difference because you’re just being generous without expecting anything in return, and it makes people feel good. And that’s when it dawned on me, I always think of the million dollar hoodie as like this, that’s a great specific reason to give stuff away. Not that it always has to equate to money or business, but that’s sort of my story about it.

John Jantsch: Yeah, people who are listeners to my show know I say this all the time, I think that the universe has a great scorekeeping mechanism and if you give without the thought of getting, at some point it’s going to come back around. So, the fourth principle, and we’re about out of time, but I just want to throw this out there. Empathy. I feel like as a country, at least in the United States, we’re probably as divided right now as maybe we’ve ever been or been since the 1800s. And empathy really is a lot about understanding somebody else’s point of view. How, again, you may or may not agree with me on this point of, it feels like we’re very divided politically, socially. So how can empathy in some ways heal that divide?

Jason Harris: Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think we’ve never been more divided, more partisan as a country either. There was a study that came out recently again, in the 1960s there was 5% of families, like people that had sons or daughters, 5% would be upset if they married someone from a different political party. And then in 2016, the number was 65%. So just shows you in that short time frame how divided we’ve become from a political viewpoint standpoint, how partisan we are.

Jason Harris: And so to me, empathy is really all about developing a natural curiosity for others and listening and learning more and seeking out collaborations. Trying to join forces with people from diverse backgrounds and different areas of expertise. And it’s shifting the mindset of seeing people as more similar than different. And I always have this in the front of my head, which is that humans are 99.9% the same DNA. we’re made up of the same DNA. There’s 0.1% that makes us all different.

Jason Harris: And if you start with that framework, whenever you’re going into a conversation or a meeting or whatever, we all want the same things. We might have different viewpoints that are strong and we might not agree on on all the points, but from the basis of where we’re starting from, we are all after the same thing. And we are all that similar that you just have to try to develop that mindframe of, “Wow, we’re all the same. Let’s dive into those few key things that are different from us,” versus, “Oh man, we’re all so different. It’s impossible for us to get along.” I mean, that’s just a mental shift that I always like to practice.

John Jantsch: Well, and if you do in fact have all the answers, where’s your room to grow? Right. All right. So the last chapter I’ll let you leave us on. It’s my favorite, and I’ll let you just describe what you mean by that we have to become our own personal Jesus.

Jason Harris: So for me, personal Jesus is really all about this idea of where, to me, where soulful really resonates is when you marry skill with purpose. And skill is really about, all of us are only going to have two or three things that we’re really, really skilled at and really knowledgeable at. And we should always make sure that we hone those. And then every few years we should be trying to develop new skills and learning and growing. Not that they’re going to become, we’re going to master them, but it just keeps us fresh. And when you match the two or three things you’re really skilled at and you’re living skillfully, and you match that with purpose, that’s where you hit inspiration.

Jason Harris: And inspiration is really about mirroring things that you are good at with things that you could give back. And if you look at, you have two lists and you write down on one side the two or three things you’re really skilled at. Like in your case it could be marketing for small business podcasts, whatever it might be. And then you mirror things that you care about in the world that could be improved. I don’t know what those would be for you, but if you have a list of those three skillful things and those three purpose oriented things, and you look at those two lists long enough, you’re going to come up with an idea of how to blend your skills with purpose, to be inspirational to other people. And I think really if we’re all just about money and business and success, then we’ve lost the big picture. And that to me is a critical element of being soulful.

John Jantsch: Speaking with Jason Harris, the author of The Soulful Art of Persuasion. So Jason, where can people find out more about you and the book?

Jason Harris: You can check out thesoulfulart.com, that has every place you can buy. It has a little bit more about me and I have some sample reading materials on there that people can check out if they’re interested.

John Jantsch: Awesome. Well, I appreciate you stopping by. Did I mention I wear an extra large hoodie? I don’t think I mentioned that.

Jason Harris: You did now, it’s in the mail.

John Jantsch: Awesome. Well, Jason, hopefully we can catch up with you next time. I’m in New York, so thanks so much.

Jason Harris: Absolutely. Thank you John.

Transcript of Advice for Entrepreneurs Who Want to Sell Their Companies

Transcript of Advice for Entrepreneurs Who Want to Sell Their Companies written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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John Jantsch: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is John Warrillow. He is the founder of the Value Builder System, a company that helps business owners improve the value of their company, and he’s also the author of the bestselling book, Built to Sell: Creating a Business That Can Thrive Without You. So, John, I have to say actually welcome back because I think we had you on for Built to Sell.

John Warrillow: You were good enough to do that. It’s great to be back. John, thanks for having me.

John Jantsch: So let’s just start, there’s a lot of business owners out there, some of whom are listening today, I suspect, that want to sell their company. So if I wake up one morning and think, “I want to sell my business,” what’s the first thing I need to do?

John Warrillow: I mean, the easiest thing to think about and the toughest thing to do is how well would your business thrive without you running it? Essentially, that’s the essence of building a valuable company because when somebody, obviously, buys it, it’s got to run without you. And if it runs well without you, you’ve got a valuable asset. If it doesn’t, then you’ve got changes to make. You got some changes to make.

John Jantsch: Well, does it also not have to be able to run without you? Do you have to actually demonstrate that as well? I mean you have to sort of prove that so that somebody can clearly see, “Oh, this isn’t dependent on you.”

John Warrillow: Yeah, for sure. I mean the smaller the company you have, the more skeptical a buyer is going to be that it runs without you. If you’ve got a 20, 30, $40 million company, nobody assumes that that’s being all run on the back of one owner. But if you’ve got a $500,000 company or a $300,000 company, that’s when their radar of the potential acquirer is way up, and they’re like, “Okay, what happens when we write you a check, and you hit the beach, does this whole thing kind of fall away?” And so the smaller you have a company the more skeptical they’re going to be.

John Jantsch: So you in the Value Builder System kind of lean on these drivers of salability kind of the things that people use to determine or demonstrate that a company has value. And I’m guessing one of them certainly is a lot of, “What’s the revenue? What’s the profit?” But does it go in terms of the financial part? Does it go kind of beyond showing a profit and loss statement?

John Warrillow: You’re right. Financial performance, I mean, you can’t get away from it. It’s important to acquirers, right? So what’s your top-line revenue? The more revenue you have, the more valuable your company is going to be, generally. Obviously, profitability’s going to be important. Things like gross margin are also important. Here’s why. When an acquirer looks at your company, if your gross margin is dropping consistently year over year, they’re going to draw the conclusion that you’ve lost your marketing differentiation. I know that’s something you talk a lot about with your customers.

John Warrillow: The idea that if you are starting to have to sort of compete and “buy business” and, therefore, your gross margin is dropping, they’re going to assume that the growth cycle of your company has matured and that’s going to be a real downward pressure on your value. If your gross margin, however, is consistent or growing, they’re going to assume that you’re increasing your pricing authority, meaning you’re becoming more differentiated for what you sell or do and, therefore, your business is going to be more attractive to acquire. So it’s important. Financial performance is important, but there are some nuances associated with it as well.

John Jantsch: I had somebody reach out to me a couple of years ago and they said, “Hey, there’s a company in your industry, they want to buy you out. They’re going to a couple of companies like yours and you’re a real target and they want to roll all these companies up.” And so I was like, “Okay, I’ll play, tell me what you’ve got in mind,” and they send me this list of about 47 things that they needed to see. And I was like, “I’m done. I’m out of here. That looks like a lot of work.” So in addition to just like your QuickBooks profit and loss, I mean, it seems to me people, I mean, they’re buying a business sort of on faith, but maybe they’re going to need more than faith.

John Warrillow: They sure are, and by the way, that’s a typical fishing letter used by either a private equity group or a business broker, as flattering as it can be, it probably doesn’t mean a whole lot. There’s you and 10,000 other people like you got the same letter, so it can be quite flattering but at the same time, I would have my radar up at letters like that and really be fairly conservative in their approach.

John Warrillow: Look, they’re going to want to know how repeatable is your business without you? And beyond just revenue and profits and gross margin, they’re also going to want to understand your recurring revenue. So subscription-based, annuity-based revenue, why is that important? Well, it predicts that in the future that revenue will come in again without you as the rainmaker. A lot of people know business owners are the sort of rainmakers in their company, and so acquirers want to know, “Okay, if we pull you out of the equation here, is this revenue going to continue?” That’s why they love service contracts, subscriptions, anything that where there’s that sort of a tail to the revenue.

John Jantsch: Yeah, and you actually wrote a book about that. I can’t remember, forgive me, A Subscription Economy or something like that?

John Warrillow: It’s not indelible in your mind, John?

John Jantsch: I’m sorry.

John Warrillow: It’s called The Automatic Customer.

John Jantsch: The Automatic Customer, [crosstalk] but that was the basis of it really, right? And I think that beyond the saleability of your company, I mean I think that’s just a great business practice, isn’t it? You need to build in some sort of recurring revenues?

John Warrillow: Yeah, I mean, it takes a lot of the stress away from running a company when you know at the beginning of the month you’ve got most of your revenue is already spoken for. I used to run, this goes back 20 years ago, a project-based consultancy and there was nothing worse than the beginning of the month because the beginning of the month you had to like being on a hamster wheel, start it all over again, right. And try to piece together [inaudible] revenue because win some projects, bid on some stuff and it was this constant scurrying around trying to find revenue, and in a good month you pieced it together like a patchwork quilt but for a lot of months, you didn’t. And so recurring revenue is one of those sort of de-stressors for people. It helps you predict what you’re going to need in your company many years or at least months in the future. I’m reminded of the guys at H.Bloom. Have you heard this story about H.Bloom before?

John Jantsch: I don’t think I have.

John Warrillow: So H.Bloom is a subscription-based flower store, a flower company. Essentially, you can buy a subscription to flowers. You might say, “Well, who on earth buys flowers on subscription?” Well, it turns out that a lot of very boutique-hotels and sort of upscale restaurants buy flowers every two weeks from H.Bloom because they want to give that professional image. Well, turns out the typical flower store throws out, garbages, 60% of its inventory every single month. Why? Because the stuff is dead in the fridge, right? They guess wrong on how many flowers they need to buy, yet H.Bloom’s spoilage rate is less than 2% per month because they know how many people are buying flowers that month in advance because they’re all buying them on subscription. And so yeah, it makes your business way less stressful and also helps you kind of figure out how many trucks you’re going to need on the road or how many guys you’re going to need or gals you’re going to need, six, 12, 18 months from now, which is huge.

John Jantsch: So you mentioned the idea of growth potential. You see every day these IPOs coming out of companies that we work, for example. Just had an IPO and last quarter they lost $700 million.

John Warrillow: Right.

John Jantsch: So are people banking on growth potential and if so, how do you demonstrate growth potential? Let’s go down to the small business. I think my business is awesome. I’ve done a lot of amazing things in my business. So clearly the growth potential is huge. So that was said facetiously, but, I mean, that’s obviously an important factor, but how do you demonstrate that or how do you even quantify that?

John Warrillow: Yeah, so growth potential is really important to investors and acquirers and a lot of it is going to be predicated on the industry that you’re in, right? So if you’re a law firm, most acquirers know that for a law firm to scale, it requires hiring a bunch of associates, onboarding them, training them, and it takes years to really get them to be effective associates, and as a result, those companies don’t scale very quickly, and their multiples are what people are willing to pay to buy a law firm tends to be fairly low. Whereas, if you’re a manufacturing company, and an acquirer can look at your business and say, “If we can get the sales and marketing right and bring in lots more business, we can just put on another shift, make the assembly line run twice as fast, or they can stamp out their widget much more quickly,” they’re going to pay a much higher multiple.

John Warrillow: It’s why technology companies, ones, in particular, that are based on SAS-based software, for example, are getting tremendous multiples because acquirers know they don’t need to invest in a lot of infrastructure to scale. They can simply grow quite quickly by winning new customers. So you’re going to want to demonstrate what’s the model? I love looking at cost per account acquired as a key metric to share with potential acquirers.

John Warrillow: So being able to demonstrate, like I put $1,000 at the top of the funnel. I invest a $1,000 in whatever marketing, telemarketing, Facebook marketing, whatever you choose to do in your marketing, I put $1,000 in and I get three customers. In other words, my cost to acquire account is $333, that’s huge information for potential acquirer because guess what? They’ve got lots of money, typically. So they can say, “Okay, if you’re getting three customers for every $1,000 I invest, well, it stands to reason that if I invest $10,000 a month, I get 30 customers and if I invested a hundred grand, I’d get 300 customers,” and so that information cost per account acquired is huge.

John Jantsch: Yeah, and if you could really nail that, I mean, you can make a case for saying, “Let’s go out and borrow money to do that, right, almost. I mean, if you can really get sure about that. “If we can make more money off of a client that it costs us to acquire and we know exactly what it costs us to acquire them, that’s a pretty valuable ratio.

John Warrillow: That’s huge. It’s huge. A lot of small businesses, and when I say small, I’m referring to kind of 10-person companies, 5-person companies, 20-person companies. They’re acquired, they’re purchased not by other companies, but by individuals and individuals buy businesses with debt. And they typically, in the United States at least, get an SBA Loan, Small Business Administration Loan. And the SBA is basically a government-guaranteed loan that a bank will offer, and it will allow an acquirer, an individual, to buy a business that they couldn’t ordinarily afford. Well, in order to be “bankable,” meaning a company that a bank would lend to, you have to have some of these metrics dialed in.

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John Jantsch: So long, long, long time ago, we’re talking 25 years ago when I started my consulting-

John Warrillow: Before I was born, Jantsch.

John Jantsch: When I started my consulting practice, I looked up one day and 60% of my business was coming from two customers. And, lo and behold, for no reason related to my work for them, they both decided to fire me and I had to scramble. What percentage of businesses kind of find themselves in that same boat and obviously, what role does something like that play in the salability of a company?

John Warrillow: Yeah, you’re talking about a value-driver we refer to as the Switzerland Structure and the Switzerland Structure, it’s named after the country of Switzerland, which as you know, is sort of obsessed with this idea of independence, not cozying up to any one kind of geopolitical faction, whatever. The same can be true of the most valuable companies. Meaning the most valuable companies are not dependent on any one constituency. And the typical three problem areas for a lot of small businesses are either they’re too dependent on a single employee, to dependent on a single supplier, or as you said in your example, to dependent on a single customer. And so most acquirers are going to get their radar up if more than 10% of your revenue comes from a single customer, and that’s because they’re just going to see that as a risk factor, right?

John Warrillow: They still may buy your business, but they might buy it and use an earn-out, which is a formula they put in place that says, “We’re not going to give you all of your money upfront. We’re going to give you part of it, but then you’re going to have to work for the second half by making sure those customers that you’ve been serving stay through the acquisition,” which is sort of the enemy for most entrepreneurs. Most entrepreneurs want to get their check and leave the next day. And so the only way you’re going to do that is if you can demonstrate that you’re not too dependent on a single customer. I shouldn’t say the only way. One of the important things you need to do in order to get up a high proportion of your money upfront is to demonstrate you’re not too dependent on a single customer.

John Jantsch: So because I’m a marketing consultant, I happen to think marketing strategy is the most important element of any business, and central to that is a strategy that allows you to differentiate yourself from the competition. I mean, just otherwise you’re competing on price. I mean, so I teach that greatly, but how important is that in somebody thinking that they’re going to buy a business that yeah, they may not have it forever, but they’ve got some sort of key differentiator that makes the competition a little bit irrelevant. I mean, obviously, that’s kind of the Holy Grail of selling your business, isn’t it?

John Warrillow: Oh, that’s so important. I’m so glad you brought this up. When an acquirer looks at buying a company, they make a secret little calculation that they never tell you the small business owner about it. It’s done behind closed doors in a boardroom somewhere. And that is the build versus buy decision, right? So they sit there, and they say, “Okay, John’s built this great company over here. Is it easier for us to just simply compete with John? In other words, basically replicate what he’s created, or should we just buy him?” And if the answer to it, “It would be cheaper to compete than buying him because he hasn’t really created anything that unique,” then they’re going to do just that. They’re going to create it, and so if you’re undifferentiated from a marketing perspective for what you do, if you’re responding to requests for proposals, RFPs, or if you’re pricing your product by the ounce, by the yard, the chances are you’re highly commoditized as a result.

John Warrillow: An acquirer is going to say, “Well, why do I need to buy this guy’s company? I’ll just lower the price, and by the way, I have much deeper pockets to weather a pricing war. I’ll just lower the price and pick up all his business.” Whereas if you’ve created something truly unique, and there’re two ways to make your business unique, right. One is to create some technology or something that really … a better mousetrap. But very few small businesses in my experience, have a better mousetrap. But a lot more of them have the second point of differentiation, which is better marketing, right? The belief in the eyes of their customers that whatever they do is unique. I’m looking at on my desk, I’ve got, I don’t know if you’ve seen these, they’re all over the place in REI and stores like it in the United States. Have you ever seen these YETI cups, John?

John Jantsch: Oh, yeah.

John Warrillow: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I go to a lot of my kids’ baseball games and every dad has an adult beverage in the YETI cup and we await … These guys have done a tremendous job of taking essentially a cooler glass, basically, a highly commoditized product that we all have in our kitchen cabinets and make it into a product that we’re spending, 20, $30 per cup, right? Because we believe it’s unique. Now, some of that is that it is unique. It’s a unique insulative cup, but a lot of it’s marketing and that’s huge for small businesses.

John Jantsch: Well, they all just chisel it out of the $700 cooler that they sell you as well.

John Warrillow: Right, you’ve seen those too. I haven’t been tempted to buy a $700 cooler quite yet.

John Jantsch: Nor have I. So a few years ago, somebody could have good marketing, have good revenue and good customers and everything looked hunky-dory, and then the internet came along. And now, if you’re not keeping your promises, somebody leaves a review, they create a YouTube channel talking about how awful you are, how important is that sort of social proof now become in the salability factor?

John Warrillow: Yeah, it’s big. It’s one of the other drivers we talk about at Value Builder and that is is how willing are your customers to refer you? And we use the standard kind of format that most acquirers have adopted, which is called Net Promoter Score. And I’m sure you’ve seen this, I mean it’s become sort of the gold standard among enterprise companies for measuring customer satisfaction. It’s developed by a guy named Fred Reichheld, made famous by Scott Cook at Intuit. Michael Dell at Dell uses it. These very large companies are all using the same methodology to measure their customer satisfaction, and it’s a single question. And when I tell you the question, you’ve heard it a thousand times, you’ve been asked it a thousand times, I’m sure, it’s simply, “On a scale of zero to 10 how likely are you to recommend us to a friend or colleague?” And if you’re a Rackspace user, or you’re an Enterprise rent a car customer, you’ve been asked that question hundreds of times, and it turns out that question is highly-predictive, highly-correlated, statistically linked to behaviors.

John Warrillow: Number one, the customer will indeed refer, and number two, the customer will repurchase. And so if you think about the sort of currencies or the raw materials for organic growth, and we go back to a growth potential is one of the drivers we talked about earlier, that’s really the raw material. And so that’s why you really want customers who are willing to refer you. And one of the ways we measure that is using Net Promoter Score at Value Builder but there’s lots of ways you could measure it. But the essence is, “Are my customers happy? Are they willing to talk about me and say nice things to their friends and colleagues?”

John Jantsch: So we’ll go back to the beginning kind of where you started all this, that it really comes down to how likely is the business to thrive without the owner? A lot of owners have kind of, I mean, they started it, they were the chief salesperson, they were the chief innovator. They were the chief implementer. Maybe eventually they brought people in who did some of those, but they’ve never really fully broken away from the control of the business. And I’m sure that sometimes, one of your consultants will come in and say, “Well, you have to give up control of the business. We have to start putting in processes that allow somebody else to make it rain.” Does that process happen overnight or does it take years?

John Warrillow: Oh, man. Yeah, we call it hub-and-spoke, but for a lot of small businesses they are hub-and-spoke managers, meaning they’re the hub in a wheel and all their customers, suppliers, vendor they’re all spokes and if anything needs to get done if a discount needs to be approved. If a customer wants a deal, if an employee wants a vacation, they have to go into the hub. In other words, the owner to answer that question. And, of course, hub-and-spoke models can be enormously efficient, right.

John Warrillow: It cuts down on a lot of backchannel communication if you’re a hub-and-spoke manager right up until the moment you want to take a vacation, in which time the entire business basically collapses without you. And so that’s the definition of an unsellable company when you’ve got a high hub-and-spoke score, meaning you’re really, you haven’t sort of empowered your people to make decisions without you. So that’s a big one, and to your point, I think it’s a journey that we’re all always on, to some extent. I’m reminded of, do you remember Peter Drucker, the guy who-

John Jantsch: Of course, I cite him all the time, The Practice of Management’s probably my most popular book.

John Warrillow: Yeah, so I mean he was sort of thought of as this sort of, I don’t know, the modern-day pioneer of management theory, and he talked about that managers and senior managers, should focus all of their energy or the vast majority of their hours in their day on two behaviors, on two kinds of tasks. One, product innovation, and two, sales and marketing. Those were the two sort of areas that he believed senior executives should focus on in terms of their time.

John Warrillow: And if you think about it, most business owners are in some ways spending most of their time focused on those two things. At the same time, and not to contradict what Drucker said, it’s those two things that you have to actually put into other people’s hands in order for your company to be transferable. So as counterintuitive as it feels for most owners, because most owners, they feel it’s the product or the service they offer where they really got to be front and center or winning new customers. Those are the two behaviors or the two tasks, you’ve got to somehow get into somebody else’s hands. And as you said in the beginning, it’s a journey. It takes a long time. It’s not something that you can buy some software, spend a course and teach people. It takes, in many cases, years.

John Jantsch: Whoa. In many cases, it’s deep psychological scars that have to be removed in order to let go the reins of some of these things as part of the challenge.

John Warrillow: Yeah. You joke, but we’ve just done some research and built a little tool actually called Pre-score. It’s fascinating. If you look at the data on business owners, and their mental health after they sell. Turns out 75% of business owners one year after selling end up regretting the decision to sell, 75%. Think about it. To the outsider, right, it’s like winning a lottery. You sell your company, it should be right up there with the birth of your child, your marriage, it’s these wonderful days, but 75% look back a year later and regret it. And you touched on, I think at just a critical point and that is that business owners are too emotionally tied to their companies.

John Warrillow: They haven’t done dis-aggregated or separated their ego, our sense of self-worth and our reason for being from their company. And if there’s one thing I would leave your listeners with beyond the practical stuff of recurring revenue and all that stuff is really do some thinking about who you are as a person. What other rules that you play in the world. Maybe you’re a coach or a dad or a volunteer firefighter, whatever you are, or a mom or whatever, and really getting clear on the value you add, and the rule those things play in your life. Because if you just cut the cord and sell your company, man, it’ll leave a huge void if you haven’t done some thinking about other areas of your life that give you a sense of purpose.

John Jantsch: Amen to that. So what I want to ask you one last question. On average, and you may not have a good number so you can generalize here, but on average when somebody contacts a Value Builder System Coach or what you’ve seen, how long is the process of actually getting like, I’m sure you have a checklist to say, “Wow, we’ve got to go work on these three things and cleaned them up.” I mean, what’s kind of the process before somebody really is ready to sell?

John Warrillow: So interesting. We did a study actually with one of our certified Value Builders, a guy named Steve Sutton, and we took a group of 40 small business owners through an eight month study, and we had them all complete the Value Builder question at the beginning of this study. We had them do it again at six months and again at eight months. And on average, the average participant in this study improved the value of their company by 18% so you may say, “Okay, 18%. Well, that’s not a big deal.” Well, actually, if you think about the context of this is your most valuable asset, most likely your business may be your house, but it’s probably even more valuable than your company and then your home. And we’re lucky to eke out five or 7% growth in our home.

John Warrillow: If we can create 18% of increased value in our business in just eight months, you annualize that, it’s whatever, more than 20%, so it’s a huge impact. So I think it’s a lifelong journey, John, as long as the business exists, I believe you should be tweaking it and fine-tuning it to sell, but even in as little as eight months, I think you can make a material impact on the value of your company.

John Jantsch: So, John, where can somebody out about, I know you have an oral assessment, that will help people get started on these eight drivers. So tell people where they can find that.

John Warrillow: Valuebuilder.com and you’re right, there’s the Value Builder questionnaire. It’s free to take. It’ll give you your score out of 100. A typical user-average is about 59 out of a possible 100. The folks that achieve a score of 90 or greater, so those would be our sort of all-stars are getting offers more than double that of the average user. So it’s just at value builder.com.

John Jantsch: Well, John, it was great catching up with you as always, and I know you’re going to be working with our consultant network depending upon when people are listening to this October in Savannah, Georgia. So that’s just another one of the benefits of being part of the Duct Tape Marketing Consultant Network. You get to hear from smart guys like John. So, John.

John Warrillow: I can’t wait to that session, because I think the other thing that we’ve talked about today is how important marketing is to almost every one of these drivers. So I’m keen to kind of be with your guys and learn from them as much as they’ll maybe take away a couple of things from me too.

John Jantsch: Awesome. Thanks again, John. Hopefully, well, I know, we’ll see you out there soon on the road.

John Warrillow: Looking forward to it.