nadosi.com

Testimonial (00:00): I was like, I found it. I found it. This is what I’ve been looking for. I can honestly say it has genuinely changed the way I run my business. It’s changed the results that I’m seeing. It’s changed my engagement with clients. It’s changed my engagement with the team. I couldn’t be happier. Honestly. It’s the best investment I ever made. What

(01:03): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Jeff Coyle. He is the co-founder and chief strategy Officer for Market Muse. He’s a data-driven search engine marketing executive with 20 plus years of experience in the search industries focused on helping content marketers, search engine marketers, agencies, and e-commerce managers, build topical authority, improve content quality, and turn semantic research into actionable insights. So Jeff, welcome back to the show.

Jeff (01:37): Hey, thanks John. It’s good to be here.

John (01:39): So when you proposed this topic of AI and authenticity, I jumped on it immediately because certainly that’s one of the biggest complaints. I mean, you hear people out there saying, oh, well never use AI because that’s inauthentic. So why don’t you just globally set the table for how you’re approaching that topic?

Jeff (02:00): Yeah, I think the easiest way to think about it is the AI that you may have access to isn’t equal to all of AI as a concept. And so the way I think about it is setting the table is just because the thing you have access to on your phone doesn’t do it, doesn’t mean it can’t be done a, and doesn’t mean that you are using that type of technology to inject all of the things that would represent you and your authenticity or your brand’s authenticity or your company’s authenticity. So not to say it’s user error because there’s a lot of problems with technology that exists and it is accelerating so fast. However, what I’ve heard, there are large waves of folks who are almost like discrediting an entire science based on their experience, and that is always something to take notice of. And I build content strategy, content plans, content briefs, content, state content with authentic examples, authentic items, and I think that the last piece of this, I think worth talking about is content execution, content marketing, building content doesn’t only reference the generation of text or the draft. It’s all the steps that lead up to it and it’s everything that happens after it. And those things can be built and customized made to be authentic throughout that process as long as you have an understanding of what it is and what it isn’t.

John (03:40): Okay. You said about 10 things there. I know. Let’s break up a little.

Jeff (03:43): I tried to set a table, it’s a buffet.

John (03:48): So let’s back up a little bit there. What are the differences between some of the more robust technologies, if we want to call that, and maybe the more pedestrian sort of, let’s start with chat GPT, just because so many people know that. And I’m guessing when you said that thing you had on your phone, you were talking about that

Jeff (04:05): It could be that it could be Siri, it could be, I mean, Alexa, the first time you had an Amazon Echo, you asked it a question, it probably didn’t get it right. Probably gotten better over time,

John (04:15): Right? Yeah, yeah. I listened to obscure bands. Apparently it can’t ever get that right.

Jeff (04:20): Oh, I know I did. It never does. Right?

John (04:23): So what are the differences between the more robust technologies, if we’re going to call it that, and then something that you referenced that you might have access to?

Jeff (04:33): Sure, sure, sure. So when you’re thinking about a chat GBT or a claw or Bing chat or the chat you have on a search engine, those are just your access account to query a, you’re hitting a large language model with prompt and you’re getting a response. And so the most basic prompt and response large language model, but there are complex AI to use for predicting algorithmically predicting stock picks or algorithmically predicting churn risk. You can build models that will do things that are very relevant to your business that have nothing to do with large language models. Another example is you hear quite commonly you’ll hear that. So from contrast that if I ask my phone, what stocks should I pick tomorrow? And it tells me, Hey, go pick Microsoft and Google, and I’m like, Hey, that doesn’t pick stocks, right? AI can’t do that. It can just not this.

(05:41): Another example would be complex math problems. So you ask Chad GBT to do some sort of complex college math, they won’t do it. However, there’s an entire Google team, the Minerva team who is working on college math level mathematics and doing very passive job of it. So it is the simple access to an attune for the masses large language model will get you the most predictive response to whatever, however it interpreted what you sent. So it’s trying to, and then there’s some error built in. So it’s basically saying that the capital of North Dakota is, well, 99.99999% of the time. The right answer to that question is Bismarck. It’s going to follow up with that.

(06:33): If it’s giving more of a holistic predictive step through is trying to pick words, maybe put some creativity in it, even with chat GPTs technology that GPT for now that everybody’s using, you can go in the backend and you can tweak what they call temperature, make it more or less creative. But in your experience on your phone, you don’t have that. You get one input, one output with not a lot of configuration. So you’re getting a front end on a very complex technology that even its own, even the thing you’re using can be configured in dozens and dozens of different ways to be more creative, less creative. You hear people make fun of its use of the word delves on everything, and its use of the word crucial. It’s because there are particular settings in the backend that are yielding that outcome. You can tweak all of that. It can be as customized as you might want just from the base model. So they’re giving an attribution to the user interface and the default settings of the software, not the science. And that’s really the differentiator.

John (07:44): So you mentioned a couple times the language model. I mean, essentially what you’re saying is that’s what it’s been taught. That’s what it’s been fed. And so that’s that model a lot of people are finding that they can actually teach, they can feed everything that John Jan has written in the last 15 years and build a model around that. Are you going to get closer to, if I want to be in my authentic voice, is that going to give it a much closer model by feeding it or teaching it that?

Jeff (08:14): Oh, absolutely it does. And it’s already, I mean, that’s one way that you can start to get, so what you can do is you can take something that’s been trained or an ensemble of language models and then also stack on your stuff, everything that you want. You can do just your stuff, but that could have challenges. So you can work with collections of those items. You can even do complex comparisons. So there’s a thing called an AI agent. So you might’ve heard they’re doing custom GPTs with chat GPT and that software. However, you’ve been able to build agents that do a lot of different things. So you can actually chain together various steps in a process to take and reference each of your works. Let’s just say you found out that it would be more precise to reference them individually or just step through each one in a particular pattern versus just considering you as the training model for the LLM, so that you can do different types of approaches to solve specific goals and instruction sets. But I mean, it’s not limited to that. You can get into a situation and say, only include a reference to this book by John. This is the source of truth. Everything you do must reference this book, and you should consider this to be the tome of all knowledge. So there can be specific instruction sets, and these are not tremendously complex. These are things that a business user can learn how to do, not just an AI developer or somebody in product management, engineering and data science for 20 years like me or anything.

John (10:06): So one of the things that I think a chat GPT was, so it’s both plus and minus. The plus was it’s so easy to use, you just go type something, right? The minus was you got a lot better result if you knew what you were doing, if you knew how to query deeper, if you needed that, how to ask for tone and all those kinds of things. What are, I’ll use market uses as an example. What are some of the use cases that you are building that actual steps or templates if you will? I don’t know if we’re going to call ’em that. Talk a little bit about how tools like Market Muser are actually taking the power of AI, but actually building it into use cases.

Jeff (10:45): So some of the most exciting, I mean I’m building right now, the engineering team and the data science team at market use is building by far its most amazing things we’ve ever built. I mean, we have, the content briefs that we are building now are by far the best content briefs that exist in the market, which is exciting. They’re not out yet. I’m pushing really hard. But what we’re able to do is really special. And it’s when you already have your own data and you already have your own innovations and insights, you can use artificial intelligence to work with those things very magically. There is a technology called, you might hear RAG or Rag Retrieval augmented Generation Vector databases, which if you imagine a concept in 3D space and these imagine clusters of information in 3D space, you can work with those types of technologies, what used to cost millions of dollars worth of research and innovation for thousands of dollars, tens of thousands of dollars to get usable things that you can work with.

(11:55): And so what we’re working with now is we’ve always had this beautiful content inventorying product where we can look at your entire site, we can look at your competitor site and understand and prioritize. We’ve always been able to build out a great basic topic model, how to cover a topic comprehensively to sound like an expert, but we’re able to use all of our preexisting innovations in novel ways to get amazing solutions. Like, Hey, what article should I write today? And have that actually come from a place of knowledge, not just what you would get if you wrote, Hey, what should I write today to chat DBT,

John (12:33): Your website, your domain? I mean, that’s real estate that you want to own. If you’re an influencer, online creator, blogger, or really anyone who cares about their personal brand, then you need a unique domain. And now you can get your name.bio, right, John jantz.bio, right? Create a bio page to house all your various interests. It’s short, simple, easy to remember. Put all your links in one place instead of a laundry list of locations you want to send people in a profile, you can reserve your own link for around three bucks right now at pork bun.com/duct tape marketing 24, that’s right around $3 right now, pork bun.com/duct tape marketing 24.

Jeff (13:24): So if you think about that, it starts you on the path of having a content strategist, artificial intelligence product, which we are in effect building. We also have done the same with thousands and thousands of examples of developmental editing, which is a process of giving feedback on pages after you’ve consumed them. And we can do that from a place of expertise versus if you just ask, Hey, how should I improve this piece? You’re going to get random stuff. But when you get it from a place of an understanding of what’s going to work for organic search, what’s going to work from editorial processes, pretty cool stuff happens. I was just working on a page example and I was trying to mess with my own system and gave it something to optimize the page for that it wasn’t really about. And it coached me through how to actually make the page about something that it’s not.

(14:17): So I was like, oh, wow, this is pretty wild. And very much through the lens of expertise. And so those are the things we’re working on is how to prioritize, what to do analysis, clustering quality analysis in a very unique way. What should I prioritize? And then executing with amazing briefs. So what did I not say? Actually generating content. I firmly believe that’s the thing that these technologies do the worst. And if you can coach yourself almost there and then take it all over the finish line with your expertise built in magic, things happen. Very magic things

John (14:52): Happen. So you mentioned expertise at least four times in that answer, and it was right to my next question. Search engines are theoretically now looking for expertise, looking for actual experience when you’re writing about a topic that you can demonstrate, no, we do this or I’ve done this. I mean, that’s certainly one of the things that can be a potential shortcoming in ai. So how do you overcome that? Because again, you were clearly thinking about it because you’ve mentioned it numerous times.

Jeff (15:25): Well, I’ve been doing it for a very long time. I’ve been saying authority, a topical authority for now, sadly more than a decade, trying to get people on the horse to be thinking about quality for a long time. But now it’s true what you said. Certain queries, certain research paths require expertise. They should have always required expertise, but in reality, could it be assessed? And so what I’m being a push for is ensuring that you have a human in the loop at various stages and you understand the types of things that if you were to inject them in the process would exhibit expertise. So it’s things like brand style, tone and voice. It’s things like actually the personal anecdote that needs to be in there. It’s things like when I own a micro brewery, when I’m writing an article that it’s featuring these types of beers, make sure the one I make is in that listicle that I make, because that’s going to make it unique and illustrate expertise as well.

(16:30): If there’s a technique that I want to feature, if there’s a area of expertise, if there’s a visit to a particular country and I need to include that to represent that I’ve actually been there, those are things you can inject early in the process and keep the flow logical. So it doesn’t just seem taxonomy in like a dreaded post publish edit, which doesn’t. And those are the ones that are getting killed right now is these post publish, edit, I call them postage stamp content. They have 90% generated, and then they’ll put a personal anecdote at the bottom. You don’t even know whether it’s real or not, and the price of not being authentic, people are feeling it for the first time right now, and they didn’t go there early enough. So a lot of their pages, exhibit, exhibit, that’s actually authenticity or actually inauthentic information. And that’s where you get into a big,

John (17:26): Yeah, because before chat, GPT, let’s face it, for five, eight years, there were a whole bunch of content forms out there producing chat, GPT, like content, weren’t they?

Jeff (17:35): I’ll call it that. However, the sharps were winning, the sharps were winning, and those sharps, many of them, the really sharp folks are still winning. But yes, there was a lot of content that was, I’ll call it powder room makeup on the pig. And you are seeing that for many reasons, those sites tremendously viable right now where you had great infrastructure built. Those still are whether they were using generative AI or not. And in the end, if the content is producing information gain or when someone reads it, they’re getting value. And then it has to be part of an infrastructure that makes sense. So for example, if I put out the most amazing article ever written, it’s medically reviewed by 20 veterinarians, and it tells the story that the guide to owning a Boston Terrier, if my site doesn’t support the fact that I am the source of content for that particular dog breed, it doesn’t make sense. If my site’s about ginger ale, it doesn’t make sense that I publish that piece. So there’s pieces of the puzzle that can’t only be looked at the page level or the paragraph level, and it all tells the story of, Hey, you will pay the price if any part of your site is inauthentic. Yeah,

John (18:53): Yeah. Wait, there’s sites about Ginger A that’s awesome.

Jeff (18:55): I’m sure there is. They’re the two things I’m looking at is my dog and my ginger ale right now. So

John (19:02): I’m sure you get asked, imagine you’re talking to a group of agencies or agency owners of content folks at agencies. What’s the future for that aspect of that business?

Jeff (19:14): All the time? This is the question, right? Is what can I bring? And I think what happened was, I mean, you saw a huge fallout of low quality content providers. They’re in the process of all going away or they’re pivoting to focus on where could they go? They could go with, oh, we have to get really good at AI using it basically on your behalf, or We have to get really good at what differentiates us. So it is we will extract great information out of your expert’s head, or we will actually go find experts and tell that story. What’s the key there? The ones that are still, I wouldn’t call them thriving, but they’re surviving asterisk right now from a content delivery are ones that have experts in the loop at some level, or they have really great processes around building out extraction of information.

(20:07): I mean, what, I had a presentation that this was over a year ago called The Rise of the subject matter expert predicting. This is predicting this conversation, right? I changed that this year to be the subject matter expert has risen because they are the most important person in the room, and that is where the book’s going. It’s going to be finding passionate people who can tell a unique story that can be woven into content that’s assisted by AI has always been the magic. Now it’s going to be the only magic that works with very few exceptions, especially when topics require experience. And you’re also going to see maybe in cases where it’s really hard to differentiate. So there’s a lot of duplicative content. People are going to have to get creative and differentiate, and that’s going to be a race to the top, frankly. And so if you’ve gotten away with lots of generic content and it’s still working now, I wouldn’t feel comfortable.

(21:12): I would still want to go back and say, what are we bringing to this that’s special? Is it unique imagery? Is it personal experience? I’m not saying write a 2,500 word blog on top of all your recipes, but other industries have already gone through this, and that’s one of them. They’ve already gone through this folks. There’s only so many simple chocolate chip cookie recipes. They already had to go through this and figure out how to differentiate. And then do they differentiate with their brand? Do they differentiate with their clout to differentiate with exciting imagery video? Those are going to be the challenges that folks that haven’t historically had to deal with that are going to have to deal with if they’re still prospering with generic content.

John (21:54): Yeah, it’s kind of like in the old days, black hat SEO stuff would work, and that’s why people kept doing it, but then one day it didn’t. No

Jeff (22:03): One day. It’s the Pixar story spine, but they don’t like to finish it, right? It’s like then one day, and then we said, oh, shuck. No, it’s true. It’s all repeat, spin, cycle repeat. And these are enterprise SEO brands, large brands, large publishers away with black hat techniques. Oh, yeah. I mean, give me three beers and I’ll tell you each one and exactly walk you through the processes that they will, but they are doing, let’s count ’em down. But you aren’t able to do that. And if you are doing it, it is still a risk. It is still a risk to do some of these things. And we see that with the gains and losses. Every step you take has to be, you want to get more predictive and less speculative. And if you’re relying on tactics that are troublesome, they have a shelf life, you just have to do it with those eyes open.

John (22:58): Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jennifer, appreciate you coming and spending a few minutes on the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast to talk about this interesting and evolving topic. Is there someplace where you’d invite people to connect with you, find out more about Market Muse?

Jeff (23:11): Oh yeah, sure. So you can email me jeff@marketmuse.com, market muse.com. Online. We have reverse trials so you can get free access to our paid solution, lifetime free access to some of these other solutions. Give me a call if you want to talk about more of the site level strategy, recommendations, engines, those types of things that we’re working on building. I’ve got tons of webinars, everything. I love this stuff. LinkedIn on the Twitter x Jeffrey Coil, and yeah, what I would just recommend, if you’re playing with this stuff by yourself, there’s a lot of communities trying to figure out best ways to do it. Just make sure you’re bringing your expertise with you at every step of the process and your outcomes are going to get better and better every day, whether it’s your brand dial tone format, or you’re actually bringing in your personal anecdotes and ensuring that they make it into that final product. You can get away with just some basics like that and really making this work for you. And always have a human in the loop. Don’t publish right out of the machine yet. There aren’t any examples of that working that I think don’t have a shelf life. I’ll leave it there.

John (24:23): I know that I’ve written at least 4,000 blog posts in my career, and I’ve never wrapped one up by saying in conclusion, which every single chat GPT article seems to do.

Jeff (24:35): Yeah, there are a lot of, they also, some of them say, continue

John (24:41): Or I’m out of soap. Yeah, exactly. Right.

Jeff (24:45): But the reality is being able to look at one of those thousands of blog posts through the lens of a developmental editor, guess what? I can guarantee you it’ll be 4,000 great experiences, and that’s the kind of stuff that I’m doing because you are the expert and getting through those blind spots and seeing what’s magical and what you could do next. There isn’t anything out there that’s doing that out of the box, but it’s not to say that it can’t be done. I think that’s for everybody listening. If you have a great use case, get it into the community with your people you trust, and they may have path to somebody who can do this stuff with ai, because I know some smart folks who get this stuff done on the basis.

John (25:30): Awesome. Again, appreciate you taking a moment to stop by. Hopefully we’ll run into you on these days out there on the road.

The FUD Factor: How Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt Shape Leadership

The FUD Factor: How Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt Shape Leadership written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Brendan Keegan, a seasoned executive with over three decades of experience in leadership and innovation. Brendan is also the author of the book “The FUD Factor: Overcoming Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt to Achieve the Impossible.” Our conversation covers the profound impact of fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD) on leadership and how mastering these emotions can shape the trajectory of businesses and individuals alike.

Key Takeaways

Brendan Keegan emphasizes the transformative power of addressing fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD) in leadership. By embracing failure as a learning opportunity, fostering a culture of fearless leadership, and developing emotional intelligence, leaders can overcome mindset barriers and drive growth. Strategies for overcoming FUD include encouraging open communication, setting clear goals, and celebrating successes, ultimately empowering individuals and organizations to achieve greater efficiency, effectiveness, and success.

Questions I ask Brendan Keegan:

[02:11] Is there’s a personal story of how you overcame FUD?

[03:30] How does FUD show up in the workplace?

[05:00] What are some best practices to admitting fear and overcoming it?

[06:42] What inspired you to write a book about overcoming fear?

[07:39] Talk about fearless leadership

[10:55] What are some of the key traits that this fearless leader needs to learn or evolve in their arsenal?

[13:16] Would you say a high level of self-awareness is one of them?

[14:41] How does leadership act as a differentiator between good teams and great teams?

[17:32] Why does leadership matter more now than ever?

[19:56] Is there some place you’d invite people to connect with you, and learn more about the FUD Factor?

More About Brendan Keegan:

Connect with Brendan on LinkedIn
Visit his Website

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

Connect with John Jantsch on LinkedIn

This episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by ActiveCampaign

Try ActiveCampaign free for 14 days with our special offer. Exclusive to new customers—upgrade and grow your business with ActiveCampaign today!

Duct Tape Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00): I was like, I found it. I found it. This is what I’ve been looking for. I can honestly say it has genuinely changed the way I run my business. It’s changed the results that I’m seeing. It’s changed my engagement with clients. It’s changed my engagement with the team. I couldn’t be happier. Honestly. It’s the best investment I ever made. What

John (01:04): Hello

John (01:04): And welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Brendan Keegan. With over three decades of experience, he’s known for his practical insights and passion for innovation. Brendan’s focus on leveraging technology to streamline operations has made him a trusted resource for businesses of all sizes. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today, the FUD Factor, overcoming Fear, uncertainty, and Doubt, to Achieve the Impossible. So Brendan, welcome to the show.

Brendan (01:36): Alright, welcome. Thanks so much. I’m excited to be here. And just talk a little bit about marketing and fud.

John (01:41): So with St. Patrick’s Day, I’m recording this in March with St. Patrick’s Day, not too far behind us. I’ve been watching a couple Irish movies and I’m got to tell you, Brendan Keegan sounds like a character from an Irish movie.

Brendan (01:52): Yeah, well, my middle name’s Patrick, so I got the a hundred percent factor going there.

John (01:59): Awesome. So one of the main premises of the book is this idea of fud, which I think is a term that I’ve heard used by other folks. Fear, uncertainty, and doubt is kind of learn throughout our lives. I’m curious if there’s a personal story of how you overcame your own brand of fud.

Brendan (02:18): Well, it’s interesting. As a kid, your parents kind of put FUD onto, but you don’t realize it until you’re a parent. So I remember when I started realizing it when our daughter was really small, but then when she started playing sports, and I still remember she had a skateboard, and all of a sudden it’s get the helmet on, get the knee pads, get the elbow pads on, and it’s like, Hey, in case you fall now to a 5-year-old, they don’t think they’re going to fall. So I put the idea of falling into her head and with all the equipment, all of a sudden she was thinking, Hey, I’m just going to go down the hill. I’m going to ride it over to my friend’s house, house’s going to have no issues. And all of a sudden I turned what was going to be a fun ride into a very dangerous sport that she had to be very careful of. The same could be said, going downhill, ski, and you get ’em bundled up, put the helmet on and everything. But as parents, we tend to be protective because we know they can fall, but we start to unintentionally with the best of intentions, impart some of our fear, uncertainty and doubt. Fear. What if they fall, they’re going to break their arm. Well, they didn’t plan on falling.

John (03:30): So how does that show up then in the adult version of the workplace?

Brendan (03:36): Well, as you grow up, it manifests where all of a sudden someone wants to play soccer, and it’s like, I’m not sure if I’m going to make the team. Well, do I try out? Do I not try out, who am I going to ask to prom? What if they say no? It’s like, well, what if they say yes? So we start just as human beings to put the doubt inside our own heads, whether it, well, I’m not going to try off this document, I’m not going to make it. Why? Well, I’m not good enough, as opposed to, Hey, if I practice, I’m good enough. And some of that just can be environmental. Did you grow up in a house where your family, your guardian, your uncle, your parents did say, Hey, if you practice 30 minutes a day, you’re going to make the team? Or did they reinforce the, Hey, it’s going to be really tough to make the team. I coached football for a number of years, not here. Parents say, I’m so concerned, I just know if he plays football, he’s going to get hurt. And I’d say, what if I told you there’s three times more injuries in cheerleading than there is football in youth sports, or if that matter, high school sports, but you don’t have a fear of your daughter or son cheerleading. But football has that, and so we’re just programmed.

John (04:47): So you talk about this, some examples of how you’ve worked with team members to push them on because people show up then at the workplace in their twenties, thirties, and forties, still with some of that residual doubt. So what are some of the ways that you’ve found practices, tactics, strategies, whatever you want to call ’em, to get people to move paths that to like, okay, I’m admitting I’m afraid. How do I move past sales?

Brendan (05:10): I think the first thing is talking about you are going to fail, just kind of saying, okay, it’s okay to fail. So on my wall at every office, I have the saying, have the courage to fail and the faith to succeed. So the first thing, best practice is make failure acceptable. So that’s automatically, you’re going to say, well, if this doesn’t succeed, I’m not going to lose my job. I’m not going to be in the penalty box. I’m not going to get in trouble. The next thing I’d say is when you do have failures in your company, don’t hide from ’em. Talk about ’em. So if you do zoom calls, say, Hey, this week we’re going to talk about one of our successes, but we’re going to talk about one of our failures. And when you talk about the failure, talk about what you learned and how you’re a better company because of the failure, because I’ve had lots of failures in my career going into new markets, and you really learn, wow, we thought we were going to do well in this market, and you really learned that you didn’t, by the way, sometimes when you’re successful, you don’t diagnose it as much as to you just kind of keep doing it.

(06:09): So I think the first best practice is let failure be acceptable, let failure be something that’s possible, and then just some very light training on how do you overcome fear. Some of that can be design thinking, some of it can be some innovation courses. And what’s great now is whether it’s LinkedIn learning or just all the free learning online, there’s courses where you can learn how to think and then test your ideas.

John (06:35): I probably should ask this first, but you’re, by all intent and purposes from your bio, you’re an operations guy. What inspired you to write a book about overcoming fear?

Brendan (06:47): I’ve had a chance to be a CEO for the last 23 years, and I’ve gone into six different companies, every one of ’em. We were trying to either do a turnaround or a transformation, so we were trying to go against our natural momentum. And what I found is I had to spend more time internally changing mindsets than externally. Externally, you could see here’s a great market, but internally I’d have people saying, oh, here’s why. Here’s, we’re not going to be successful in that market. We’ve never pursued that market. We’re not prepared for that market. And I’d scratch my head as an outsider, saying, why? And you start to get the, well, we haven’t done that before. And my favorite is, well, we tried that when? Five years ago. Five years ago for

John (07:29): One week, right?

Brendan (07:31): Or five years ago, you might not have had the capability to do it that you have today. And just things change.

John (07:37): You talk a lot in this book about something you call fearless leadership, and I’m curious if you could help to find that, because I mean, there’s certainly lots of fearless leaders that lead people off cliffs as well, so I’m guessing that’s not exactly the same sense in which you mean it.

Brendan (07:52): Yeah, no, in Fearless Leadership is about creating an environment that allows people to fail, allows people to try, allows people to take risks, and then allows those successes to be celebrated. So it’s not reckless leadership. I’m not a fan of, Hey, let’s just pursue any market for any reason. One thing I talk about oftentimes is establish some guardrails like, Hey, we can pursue any market as long as we make 5% margin. So you’re saying, okay, you can’t pursue something that we’re going to lose money or say, Hey, we’re going to start a business, and it’s okay if we lose money in the first year. It’s not okay if we lose money in the third year. Someone might say, well, to start the business, I can’t make it profitable the first month, but I can make it profitable after a year. What I find is set up some parameters, set up some guardrails and say, okay, this, as long as we’re within here, you can operate in any way you see fit.

(08:46): And that can be how fast do we want it to grow? What clients do we want to pursue? How profitable do we want it to be? What’s the time horizon? We’re going to do this for six months, and then we’re going to assess. So it’s not reckless, but it’s creating an environment, setting parameters, and then going after it in a way that you wouldn’t have gone after. Because if you go after it in a very calculated, slow manner, there’s a good chance that the opportunity passes you by. So you do have to go about it in a very intentional way.

John (09:20): It’s my pleasure to welcome a new sponsor to the podcast. Our friends at ActiveCampaign. ActiveCampaign helps small teams power big businesses with a must have platform for intelligent marketing automation. We’ve been using ActiveCampaign for years here at Duct Tape Marketing to power our subscription forms, email newsletters, and sales funnel drip campaigns. ActiveCampaign is that rare platform that’s affordable, easy to use, and capable of handling even the most complex marketing automation needs, and they make it easy to switch. They provide every new customer with one-on-one personal training and free migrations from your current marketing automation or email marketing provider. You can try ActiveCampaign for free for 14 days and there’s no credit card required. Just visit active campaign.com/duct tape. That’s right. Duct Tape Marketing podcast. Listeners who sign up via that link will also receive 15% off an annual plan if purchased by March 31st, 2024. That’s activecampaign.com/duct tape. Now, this offer is limited to new active campaign customers only. So what are you waiting for? Fuel your growth, boost revenue and save precious time by upgrading to active campaign today.

John (10:37): So leadership’s one of those things that it’s like sales people are either really good at it or they’re not, right? They, they’re like born salespeople. Same with leadership. I think a lot of people say, oh, that person’s born leader, some people suggest that it can be learned. I know that you fall on the, it can be learned, but what are some of the key traits that this fearless leader really needs to have or really needs to learn or evolve in their arsenal?

Brendan (11:05): So the first is when I look at the best leaders out there that are able to do fearless things that are able to transform businesses, the first thing that they have is they’re good communicators. That’s both in writing and in person in verbal communications, they’re able to articulate their ideas, they’re able to then influence people to follow them, meaning they come up with an idea, like during covid, we said, Hey, e-commerce and last mile is going to take off. More people are receiving things at home. I was running a commercial fleet company, so we said we should pursue that more. Okay, great. Then what you needed to do is then you needed to influence more people. So you needed to create a narrative and be able to communicate so you could influence people. The third thing is people that are good disruptors or transformers or innovative or fearless, tend to be good at relationships because they know I’m asking you to take a risk with me.

(12:01): So what’s our trust level? Do you believe in me? Do we have trust? If you have trust in me and I’m influencing you and I’m keeping you up to date and I’m communicating with you, you’re much more likely to come along with me as opposed to simply just follow. Now, some of the other things are, they’re also good project managers. They’ve got some good project management skills, not, Hey, we’re going to try this anyway. So they’re able to say, we’re going to do phase one, we’re going to do phase two, we’re going to do phase three. By the way, now they don’t individually have to have all these skills. They got to make sure the team

John (12:34): Has these skills. Yeah, I was going to say, I’m terrible at project management, but I have a great number too.

Brendan (12:39): But that’s where you’d read the communications. The next thing is you’d create the vision and then you might bring in somebody that says, okay, you’re going to work in Microsoft Excel or Microsoft Project. You’re going to run the project side of this. And so you don’t have to have the skill, but the team has to have that skill. And that last one I talked about is you have to be able to paint a higher vision of something extraordinary, something that is above the norm so that people can strive for that.

John (13:07): I interview, I’ve been doing this show for 15 years, and I’ve interviewed dozens, probably a hundred folks that have written books on leadership. I’ll tell you the one thing that always comes up when somebody’s talking about becoming a better leader is a pretty high level of self-awareness, like understanding yourself. I’m curious where you would put that one.

Brendan (13:29): Yeah, so I put that under the banner of eq, emotional intelligence. I know at one point in my career, I got told Brendan, you got all the IQ to do anything you want in this world, but if you don’t develop more eq, you’re going nowhere. And tough message to receive In my early twenties, and this is why I believe leadership can be learned, I really learned how to have more e and self-awareness. And oftentimes you get people who are working on a project, especially if it’s a fearless project or a disruptive project, where they get myopic tunnel vision, where it’s all about their project and they don’t realize, no, you’re in a bigger company. There’s a bigger thing going on. The resources you need might be necessary, might be pulled to work on another project. So I know that was something I wrestled with early in my career. It’s like if it was my project, I was like, I was going to run it up the hill. Even if I had to even run over a team member, I have to really learn. And that’s that influence part, and that’s that relationship part where as you ratchet up your eq, most of us have the IQ to do whatever we want. We really do. It’s the emotional intelligence that oftentimes pulls us back.

John (14:37): Kind of the read the room thing. Yeah, you go as far as saying, let me find it. Leadership is the single biggest differentiator between good teams and great teams and organizations. That’s putting a lot up. Some might suggest an outsized amount of impact over product, over marketing, over talent. Helpful. Fill in the blank there.

Brendan (14:58): Yeah. So many times when we look at great products or great companies, they weren’t the first to develop it. Oftentimes they were the second, they were the third. They were the ones though that were willing. They were the ones that were ready, willing and able to go try it. So whether this is video streaming, when Blockbuster had that ahead of Netflix, the digital camera, Kodak had that before the Instagrams, if you will, of the world. How about the Blackberry? The Blackberry had a jump on Apple and Samsung, and then Apple really kind of jumped in there. So when you diagnose a lot of that and you say what held some companies back and what throttled more companies forward? It was those leaders that were able to communicate influence, build a vision, build their relationships, and get their teams to climb the hill, as opposed to at companies that had superior products, the superior product was going to get you so far before somebody fundamentally came up with something that was as good or better. And how do you bring the entire company along? And we can look at the Apples, the Starbucks, the Netflix, the Amazons, the eBays companies that they really, Tesla, their cultures became so vital to their success.

John (16:19): You imagine that meeting an executive at Kodak walks in and says, look, five years from now, nobody’s going to be using film. We have Doug Bo all in on digital cameras. I mean, I’m guessing that probably happened somewhere, and they went, get out of here. We never want to hear from you again. Right?

Brendan (16:35): Well, at that point, a huge part of their profit came from the film, just similar to at one point the HP printer division. All their profit wasn’t from the printers, it was actually from the cartridges. Now, I’m sure some engineers said, Hey, I came up with a cartridge that uses a lot less sync, and they’re probably like, oh, no, that’s not what we want. But that’s where there’s a saying, cannibalize yourself or be cannibalized. If you’re not going to do it, somebody’s going to do it to you.

John (17:01): I use the example all the time. Newspapers wouldn’t give away free classified ads because it was such a profitable part of their business, and then Craigslist came along and all of a sudden they were hurting.

Brendan (17:13): Yeah. Okay, good.

John (17:15): So you talk about six key reasons why leadership matters more than ever today. So it feels like every new, I’ve owned my own business for 30 years, and it seems like every year X matters more than ever. X matters more than ever. Why does leadership matter more now than ever?

Brendan (17:35): Yeah. So right now we’re seeing the baby boomers start to age into retirement. And so if you just look at the generations, you’re seeing baby boomers now, by the way, baby boomers are living longer and working longer. So that’s helping. But literally, when you just look at just pure math demographics at the number of people retiring and the number of people entering the workforce, it suggests that there’s a void being created now as people are entering where the voids being created is in the leadership ranks, in that somebody that’s retiring with 35 years, 40 years experience, that experience has translated into some level of leadership. Now, leadership isn’t always a hierarchy leadership. They could be an individual contributor, but they’re leading an r and d project on a given product because of their experience and what they’ve done. So when you look at the first thing is the math.

(18:29): The second is that void that’s being created, we’re asking people to lead earlier than we ever have. So when I look at companies that I’ve run over the last five and six years, I’ve had people in their late twenties and thirties running significant parts of the business that 15 years ago they would’ve been in their late thirties, early forties. And some of that’s just, you look around and you say, Hey, this is the talent that’s available. Now, what I’ll also tell you is as you look at each generation works differently, thinks differently, learns differently. One thing that when we talk about diversity, going a little off topic, one thing I talk about in leadership that a lot of people don’t is have diversity of age on your leadership teams have somebody in their twenties, thirties, forties, fifties and sixties. And the best example I give is if you hand a 60-year-old, a Rubik’s Cube and a 15-year-old of Rubik’s Cube, they absolutely go about it. Totally different. The 60-year-old starts spinning it around. The 15-year-old goes to YouTube for someone to watch a video on how to do it. As you build leadership, I think it’s great. I think it’s an amazing opportunity to bring younger people into leadership. I think if people that are in their mid to late career are willing to sit in the room and learn from them, I think you’re going to be a more innovative, more disruptive, more transformative company. Yeah,

John (19:50): No question. I concur. So Brendan, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there someplace you’d invite people to learn about you, connect with you, and obviously find out more about the fund factor?

Brendan (20:03): Yeah, sure. So F Factor is available online at any of the bookstores, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. I’m on Instagram. That’s probably where I’m quite a bit on at BPK Brennan p Keegan Fearless. I have a LinkedIn newsletter, about 150,000 subscribers. It’s Fearless Leadership. You can hook me up on LinkedIn. I’ve got my email and my mobile phone right there. So if you want to reach out to me right there. And then I also have a website, brendan p keegan.com. If you’re looking to, you can get more information.

John (20:31): Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Mastering Delegation: How to Transform Your Business and Life

Mastering Delegation: How to Transform Your Business and Life written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Dave Kerpen, a seasoned entrepreneur and New York Times bestselling author with a passion for effective leadership and delegation. Dave and I uncover the transformative power of delegation, shedding light on how mastering this skill can revolutionize both your business and personal life.

Key Takeaways

Dave Kerpen emphasizes that delegation is a transformative skill that empowers individuals and organizations to achieve greater efficiency, effectiveness, and work-life balance. Overcoming mindset barriers such as fear and distrust is crucial, as is following a structured approach like the Five Cs of Delegation: Choose the right person, Communicate clearly, Coach for success, Check in regularly, and Celebrate achievements. By mastering delegation, individuals can unlock exponential growth opportunities for their businesses while prioritizing meaningful experiences in their personal lives.

Questions I ask Dave Kerpen:

[01:38] What sorts of mindset shifts do you encourage people to take in your book?

[07:14] Explain the S.H.A.R.E model

[09:51] How do you overcome the need to micromanage and delegate instead?

[12:42] What role does mentoring to create leaders inside your organization play, or do you go out and find that leader?

[14:20] What practices should we start exploring? if as leaders, we are to take balancing seriously

[16:38] How do you achieve this balance with teams working remotely?

[18:24] Where can people connect with you and learn more about the Mentorship?

More About Dave Kerpen:

Connect with Dave on LinkedIn
Visit his Website
Grab a copy of Get Over Yourself

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

Connect with John Jantsch on LinkedIn

This episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by ActiveCampaign

Try ActiveCampaign free for 14 days with our special offer. Exclusive to new customers—upgrade and grow your business with ActiveCampaign today!

Duct Tape Transcript

John (00:17): You just heard was a testimonial from a recent graduate of the Duct Tape Marketing certification intensive program for fractional CMOs marketing agencies and consultants just like them. You could choose our system to move from vendor to trusted advisor, attract only ideal clients, and confidently present your strategies to build monthly recurring revenue. Visit DTM world slash scale to book your free advisory call and learn more. It’s time to transform your approach. Book your call today, DTM World slash scale. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Dave Kerpen. He’s a serial entrepreneur with three seven figure businesses, a New York Times bestselling author of five books, an investor and most important, a father of three with and husband to wife, Carrie, who’s also a partner in the business. And we’re going to talk about this latest book, get Over Yourself, how to Lead and Delegate Effectively for More Time, more Freedom, and More Success. So Dave, welcome to show.

Dave (01:34): Thanks so much for having me. Great to see you again, John.

John (01:36): Likewise. So this book is all about mindset or mindset change, I should say. So let’s talk about a couple of the shifts that you’re going to ask people to make in this book.

Dave (01:48): So the biggest thing that holds people back from delegating well is it not knowing what to do. It’s the mindset issues or what I’d call in the book emotional detractors that get in the way. And the two biggest ones are fear and distrust. So we’re afraid that if we have somebody else do the work, they’re going to mess it up. They’re going to fail. We’re going to lose clients, we’re going to go out of business. There’s many things that we’re afraid of on the trust side. We don’t trust people to get the job done. Our people have let us down in the past, and that makes it harder and harder to trust. And then the two other ones that are a little smaller, but that I do see popping up now and again are the need to control everything and the need for things to be perfect. If it’s not perfect, it’s not worth doing. And those things get in the way of good delegation as well.

John (02:34): Over the years, I’ve learned kind of the hard way sometimes that not delegating or not letting people just run with stuff and trusting them. It’s really disempowering, isn’t it, to the team. I mean, even if it’s done with because oh, I want it done it right? I mean, it really teaches them, oh, I just have to wait for you to tell me what to do.

Dave (02:52): It is. So one thing I write about and like to remind people is if they’ve ever, especially entrepreneurs and small business owners, if they’ve ever worked for somebody else, many of us have had the experience of working for a micromanager. I know I had that early on in my career and it was miserable. I felt so disempowered, I felt so just unenthusiastic about my work. And so now that your listeners are on the other side of the coin, and entrepreneurs and small business owners have an opportunity to be better, we need to remember what it was like to be micromanaged and make sure that we’re not that kind of boss.

John (03:25): Yeah. Another thing that I know I run into a lot of business owners, entrepreneurs, particularly entrepreneurs that are, we’ll figure this out, whatever it takes kind of mentality. A lot of times the work that they started doing, the work that the business began with that was kind of their passion and joy. It doesn’t make sense for them to do it anymore, but they love it. And that I find is a real challenge.

Dave (03:50): What’s really funny, I’ll tell you this book is with Ben Bella, and Glen’s a wonderful guy that, he’s the publisher, he is personally involved. It’s a smaller imprint. And he did the first read and he came back. And in the book I talk about three things that every leader should do, three things and three things alone. Set the strategy and vision, hire the right people for the right seats and assure access to enough capital and resources to get the job done. Those three things alone. And Glenn pushed back a little. He said, well, what if you like doing things? What if you like doing marketing? What if you like doing sales? I said, listen, I’m not saying you can’t do these things, but a lot of people use excuses that, oh, I like doing this. I’m really good at this, or I really like doing this, so I’m just going to keep doing it. But eventually, first of all, that disempowers the team that’s supposed to be doing it. But second of all, the stakes here are big. The stakes aren’t just your successful business. The stakes are your time that you only get once. And I write about people on their deathbeds. John, do you know what percentage of people on their deathbeds say, I wish I had worked more

John (04:56): Somewhere around zero.

Dave (04:58): I wish I had built a bigger bit somewhere around zero. But what percentage of people on their deathbed said, I wish I had more time with my family. I wish I had more time with my close friends. I wish I had more time to pursue travel and passions and different things that are personally meaningful for me. So many people have that experience. So why should we get obsessed with doing marketing for our business only because we like it or we’re good at it if it’s taking us away from our family, our children, the things that are important to us. It’s just you have to weigh the relative benefits of doing any particular task or project versus other things that you could be doing with your time.

John (05:38): Well, and I said at the beginning of this, you’ve run several seven figure businesses. You do the math on that. You break evens about a hundred thousand dollars a month and can I afford to do $30 an hour work for the business at any time?

Dave (05:54): That’s right. And I’ll tell you, as I’ve gotten older, I’m more experienced here. My accomplishments have changed. I think for a while I would’ve said my biggest accomplishment in business was the money. And then I moved on to my biggest accomplishment in businesses of being rated best places to work in New York for five years in a row. You know what? My biggest accomplishment in businesses now, it’s having businesses that allow me to check out at 3:00 PM every single day and spend the next four hours with my son doing homework and having a catch. That’s time that I will never ever get back. And I’ve done that by delegating, by letting other people do the work, by empowering them, by stepping back and saying, you know what, if it gets 80% done the way I would’ve wanted to, that’s definitely enough. Who cares if it’s 99 or a hundred percent precisely the way I would’ve wanted it? I’ve had people come to me, John, and say, Dave, I built a really big business. I made a lot of money, but I missed my whole kid’s childhood. Is it really worth it? Yeah.

John (06:55): That leads me straight into the 2015 World Series. Should we talk about that?

Dave (06:59): Oh no. I knew you were going to bring that up. It’s been a while since Casey was. I

John (07:04): Know. I know. We’re trying to actually get back to respectability so I won’t bow bad mouth too much. So you actually hinted at this about the three things somebody needs to do. You actually have a model that you’ve built that you’ve given a lovely acronym as consultant author types. You’ve already kind of unveiled a little bit, but you want to put it in context.

Dave (07:26): Sure. So I’ll give you two quick acronyms here that, because I love acronyms. So the first is the share model that it focuses on the three things and the three things alone that we as leaders should be concerned with and what to do with the rest. So those three things are the S is for set, the strategy and vision. The H is for hire the right people in the right seats. And the A is for assure access to capital and resources to get the job done. The R is to remind ourselves that every other task on our plate, every other project on their plate, every other opportunity or obstacle or challenge can be delegated. And the E is for empower instead of making somebody do it, I love the word empower. Give somebody the opportunity to make their mark on that work.

John (08:15): It’s my pleasure to welcome a new sponsor to the podcast. Our friends at ActiveCampaign. ActiveCampaign helps small teams power big businesses with a must have platform for intelligent marketing automation. We’ve been using ActiveCampaign for years here at Duct Tape Marketing to power our subscription forms, email newsletters and sales funnel drip campaigns. ActiveCampaign is that rare platform that’s affordable, easy to use, and capable of handling even the most complex marketing automation needs. And they make it easy to switch. They provide every new customer with one-on-one personal training and free migrations from your current marketing automation or email marketing provider. You can try ActiveCampaign for free for 14 days and there’s no credit card required. Just visit activecampaign.com/duct tape. That’s right. Duct Tape marketing podcast listeners who sign up via that link. We’ll also receive 15% off an annual plan. That’s activecampaign.com/duct tape. Now, this offer is limited to new active campaign customers only.

(09:20): So what are you waiting for? Fuel your growth, boost revenue and save precious time by upgrading to active campaign. Today, I tell you, as my organization’s grown, and I read this somewhere so I don’t claim that I came up with it, but I love to use this term when I’m delegating something. A lot of people want to micromanage. You use the word talk about all the do it exactly this way. And I love to just say, here’s the definition of done. Here’s what it’s got to get to. What does that look like? So talk a little bit about in the book, obviously delegation’s a big part of this, so a lot of people struggle with how to do that. So talk a little bit about how to do that.

Dave (09:57): Yeah, so that’s my second acronym, right? So I’ve got what I call the five Cs model. So five Cs to remember along the way. And I’ll briefly go through each, John. The first C is choose the right person. And this is a no small task. I get it. The biggest mistake people make here is choosing the first person that happens to be there. Okay, well this is my assistant, so she’ll do it. Or this is my cousin and he works on the business, so he’ll do this. You need to be, of course, very thoughtful about who to choose to do the work. And the good news is in today’s world, there are freelancers, there are contractors, there are vendors, there are agencies, there are apprentices. One of my companies there are Fiverr and Upwork and all kinds of ways to find people and find the right person.

(10:46): The second C is communicate clearly. Verbally is great, but put it in writing what your expectations are. So there’s no misunderstanding, there’s no confusion. There’s a lot of clarity about how to do it if you insist, but better to the point we made earlier, what that expected outcome is what the finish line looks like. The third C is to coach them on their way to success and cheer them on their way to success. I never think of myself as a manager. People hate managers. I think of myself as a coach. People like coach coaches are the best cheerleaders and they help people get to a successful outcome. They help their teams win. Managers are like, oh, nobody even likes the word. The fourth C is check in on the regular. The frequency of your check-in really depends on the scope of the project, but I do not like daily.

(11:41): Some people are overdoing here with daily check-ins or hourly check-ins. Unless it’s a three day project. I like once a week check-ins, 15 minute, everything going, what are your challenges? How can I help overcome those challenges? And then the fifth, see, and this is often forgotten. Once the task is actually accomplished, congratulate them. Celebrate success, right? Let’s learn from our mistakes along the way, but let’s really emphasize how great it was that we got to that outcome so that they have a good feeling in their mouth, a good memory of the whole thing. And you allall can rinse and repeat and do it again.

John (12:18): One of the things that a lot of organizations, I see this, an organization grows, they need people to do tasks or functions, so they start hiring people, but there really isn’t. It’s a very flat organization. There’s not a leadership team per se until an organization gets really big. And so the entrepreneur is now just managing a whole bunch of people. I know the M word you didn’t want me to use, but so what role does mentoring to create leaders inside your organization play? Or do you go out and find that leaders?

Dave (12:49): Yeah, no, it’s huge. I think a mistake folks make is hiring only junior level folks or thinking they can’t afford senior level folks. So kind of keeping a junior, which can work for a certain amount of time. But the downside, like you mentioned, is over time you’re still now you’re maybe managing seven or eight different people in different functions. And that’s not easy. It is frankly very hard. You might as well be doing the work yourself at that point. So it is really important to either bring on more senior talent and folks that tell me they can’t afford it. I call BS because share some of the equity, share some of the pie, and you can afford great talent when you share some upside with folks or mentor people and raise them up and give them a chance to succeed. And I built one of my a million dollar businesses, I co-founded with my apprentice, my assistant at the time. He was 20 years old and I empowered him and I gave him an opportunity to lead and helped to mentor him. And three years later he had a million dollar business at the age of 23 years old. So people can accomplish greatness when we give them a chance and empower them and give them the tools to succeed.

John (13:59): Talk a little bit about, I mean, you mentioned one of the obvious ones. You get yourself in a place where you can leave the business, shut the door, forget about it at three o’clock, but what are some of the techniques for balancing that? I mean because the realities are, I mean there is a lot to do in a business and a lot of demands, especially on the owner, especially if money’s tight. It’s like I got to keep working to pay the people I’m delegating to. Now. Are there some practices that we should start exploring if we really are going to be serious about this balance idea?

Dave (14:28): Yeah. Well first lemme give you another good hack for delegating on the cheap is AI and GPT. And if folks, I mean maybe it’s obvious, but I keep running into folks that just haven’t used the tools. So I think it bears saying again, GPT tools like chat, GBT are really massively helpful for things like research and copywriting, drafting pieces. You should absolutely be using these types of tools. If you can’t afford an assistant, if you can’t afford junior staff, absolutely do that. I use my calendar religiously and I book time to do things and I book time that is bookable by others to work on myself to exercise, to spend time with my kids. And I’m fierce about it. It only works if you’re fierce about it. But for me, the calendar is a wonderful tool. So I highly recommend folks that haven’t been strict about using their calendar that they think through, again, their prior Vern harness said to me, you can understand your business priorities by looking at your calendar and then understanding how well you’re really utilizing that. Another surprisingly good, I wouldn’t call this necessarily a tool, but kind of a hack. You might laugh, but go on vacation,

(15:41): Literally find that excuse to go on vacation. I’m sure your family won’t mind, right? And if you think you can’t afford it, go on a staycation, go on a deeper vacation. You don’t need to go to Fiji, but go on vacation, which forces you, whether you think you’re ready or not, to start to delegate, to start to set some boundaries on my vacations, I limit myself to an hour a night of work, catch up at 10:00 PM once the wife and kids are all asleep, I do my hour of catch up and then I’m shut off the rest of the time. And that forces me to give other people at the back of the company a chance. And guess what? The house didn’t burn down. Things will be okay for you if you go on vacation and you shut off for a couple of days. Yes.

John (16:26): So increasingly, and when people hear the word delegate sometimes they’re talking about virtual assistants or people that are in other parts of the world that can do things that they need to, task that they need done. How do you kind of balance all of that with the fact that you’re not in an office? It’s really tough to build culture, to understand people’s goals and motivation. What are some things that maybe specifically need to be different, a little different, because we’re all spread out and distributed these days?

Dave (16:57): Yeah, it’s hard. I will say that I love hybrid. I love remote. We’ve built now at least one company completely remote, maybe two completely remotely, but it does require extra work and extra attention. And my biggest recommendation around this is taking a couple extra minutes in every meeting and in every conversation to go with the small talk. Because the thing is, in an office in real life, if you will, or back, I guess I would call it real life. In the old days when we had offices, we had actual water coolers and we had actual opportunities when we’re hanging up our coat to say, how about the Mets? Can you believe they crushed KC again last night in that interleague play in today’s world, people jump on a zoom and it’s immediately like, okay, task. And that’s efficient, but at what cost to your culture and what cost to your relationship? So I think the biggest thing when we’re establishing relationships with virtual employees and virtual contractors, of which I mean almost all of us have that now, right? Is to take a couple minutes at the beginning and the end to simulate what we might’ve had in the real world some years ago of like just, Hey, how was your night? Watch any good TV last night. What are you up to this weekend? That sort of thing.

John (18:18): Yeah, absolutely. Well, Dave, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by and share some with us about get over yourself. You want to tell where people are, invite people to connect with you or find obviously the book, which I am sure can be purchased anywhere,

Dave (18:32): Bookstores everywhere. Get over yourself. book.com has a free chapter download all about delegating chores to your kids, right? So I figured let’s apply these same principles of delegation to the home, and I do office hours, free office hours with anyone that wants to meet with me every Thursday afternoon. You can go to schedule dave.com. I’m delighted to help you with any of your delegation challenges or your business challenges or your book writing challenges. John, I’m so grateful. Thank you so much for having me back

John (18:58): On. Oh, you bet. Well, again, I appreciate you taking a moment. Hopefully we’ll see you one of these days soon out there on the road.

From Mentee to Mentor: Crafting a Path to Professional Growth

From Mentee to Mentor: Crafting a Path to Professional Growth written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Ruth, an esteemed expert in mentorship and leadership development. Ruth is the Chief Learning Officer and associate professor of education in anesthesiology at Weill Cornell Medicine. She is hailed by nature, Wall Street Journal, and Columbia University as a globally recognized expert in mentorship.

Ruth sheds light on the transformative power of mentorship, emphasizing its significance in personal and professional growth, especially for women and systemically disadvantaged members of society. She shares invaluable insights into effective mentorship strategies and the difference between mentors and tor-mentors, drawing from her extensive experience in mentoring leaders across various industries.

Key Takeaways

“In every profession, those who are mentored out earn and outperform those who are not”.

Ruth underscores the transformative power of mentorship, emphasizing its critical role in personal and professional growth for both Mentor and Mentee. Effective mentorship techniques, such as active listening and fostering strong relationships, form the foundation of successful mentorship dynamics. By creating a culture of mentorship at work and seeking diverse mentorship experiences, individuals and organizations can unlock their full potential, drive innovation, and thrive in today’s competitive business landscape.

Questions I ask Dr. Ruth Gotian:

[01:44] How does working as an anesthesiologist come into the field of mentorship?

[03:26] What are the first steps that need to be taken in igniting a mentorship relationship?

[05:57] Would you say that the organizational approach outlined in your book is what people should begin using as a platform?

[10:31] How often does the mentee become the mentor?

[11:35] How beneficial is mentorship to women and marginalized groups in our society?

[14:54] How do mentorships fail?

[16:33] Can you explain the phrase from the mentor’s point of view ‘hear what’s not being said’ ?

[17:37] Should mentorships be infused in company culture?

[18:08] Where can people connect with you and learn more about the Mentorship?

More About Dr. Ruth Gotian:

Connect with Ruth on LinkedIn
Visit her Website
Grab a copy of Mentoring: A Complete Guide to Effective Mentoring

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

Connect with John Jantsch on LinkedIn

This episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by ActiveCampaign

Try ActiveCampaign free for 14 days with our special offer. Exclusive to new customers—upgrade and grow your business with ActiveCampaign today!

Duct Tape Transcript

(01:03): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Dr. Ruth Gotian. She is the Chief Learning Officer and associate professor of education in anesthesiology at Weill Cornell Medicine is a globally recognized expert in mentorship and leadership development, hailed by nature, wall Street Journal and Columbia University. She was named a top one of the top 20 mentors worldwide. She is also an award-winning author of The Success Factor and a book we’re going to talk about today, the Financial Times Guide to Mentoring. So Ruth, welcome to the show.

Ruth (01:42): Thank you so much. I’m excited.

John (01:44): So what’s the connection between an anesthesiologist and mentoring? That was my first thought when I got your bio.

Ruth (01:52): Well, I am a doctor, but I’m not a physician. I am based in the Department of anesthesiology and what mentoring has to do with it is what it has to do with every profession, which is those who are mentored out, earn and outperform those who are not. And that’s across the board across every industry, which is why I was so excited to partner with Andy Lata and write the book about mentoring.

John (02:21): Let’s start with you just mentioned, those who are mentored, perform better. Let’s start with the people. How do you be an effective mentor? A lot of my listeners are owners of companies. They have employees that they really should be looking at as mentees in some cases. So what are some of the factors that help somebody become a better mentor?

Ruth (02:42): I think you really need to look for what is undone and what is not said within the mentees. And if you could draw that out of people and then help them think bigger, dream bigger, see bigger, then you’re able to get them to do bigger things. Giving them these stretch assignments which push them right outside their comfort zone because we know in leadership development that true learning occurs right where the comfort ends. So if you’re able to do that and then you’re able to open doors for them doors they didn’t even know existed, that’s what makes you a great mentor.

John (03:21): You zoomed right past to the amazing relationship, right? But there’s a whole lot of people who have never done this before and don’t even know how to get started. In fact, maybe until they listened to this show, didn’t know it was their responsibility. So how, what’s the baby steps?

Ruth (03:37): I think the baby step actually starts with the mentee. Sure, A mentor, they see the diamond in the rough by all means approach them, but really it’s the mentee who should be taking the reins in the relationship. Now, you don’t go up to someone and say, John, you’re really successful. You’ve written seven books. Will you be my mentor? Where do you start with that? Right? Where do we even start the conversation? But if I gave some context and if I gave a timeline and if I showed encouragement as the mentee, then the mentor is more likely to step forward. So for example, if I said, John, I’d like to write my next book or my first book, I have a rough outline in place. I know you’ve written seven books, all the ins and outs. Could I grab 15, 20 minutes, show you my outline, tell me what you think I’m missing or how I can make it stronger?

(04:31): Well, now you’re excited as a potential mentor. I never used that label, but I gave you context. I showed you I’m interested, I showed you I’m willing to work, and I told you it’s only for 15, 20 minutes. It’s not all day. Now all of a sudden we have something, we have a template that we can move forward with and people are so worried about that labeled mentor. And I tell people, we’ve got enough labels in our life. Don’t worry about that one. If you start asking someone to be your mentor without doing any work beforehand, that’s very stressful because that makes them feel like they need to take on another job. Don’t worry about the label. That will come much later. That is an earned label.

John (05:16): It’s interesting as I listened to you describe that template. That’s a great template for any ask, right? That’s correct. Be as specific as possible. Outline what the objectives are, what’s in it for them or what their accountability or responsibility is going to be. In fact, I have had people over the years just come with that sort of blanket, would you be my mentor? And I’ve actually said, okay, prove that you deserve it. I didn’t say that. That’s right. I said, tell me this and this and come back to me with that. And half of them never showed back up again. That’s right. That’s right.

Ruth (05:50): They want you to illuminate a path, but which path they have to do some of the work.

John (05:57): Would you say that the approach that you outlined in the book is something that organizationally people should start adopting as a bit of a platform? Talk about how that might work.

Ruth (06:07): So the book is actually broken up into how to be a great mentor, how to be an effective mentee, and how organizations could really develop these programs. Because my co-author, Andy Lata and I, we looked at all these organizations. We all know that mentorship is needed, right? The research is crystal clear on this, but we couldn’t find organizations that were doing a fantastic job with this. There were so many loose ends, the platforms weren’t working, the matches weren’t working. And what happened was it just sort of fell by the wayside. So we decided we were going to offer these opportunities, these blueprints, how to create these great programs, how to make more effective matches that aren’t random. You’re not just going to put two people together because they’re both from Kentucky, that not everyone from Kentucky is the same, but that’s what people are doing.

(07:00): That’s what organizations are doing. So we decided we are going to offer a better strategy, which also includes an off ramp. So if you are going to match people up one-on-one, realize not every match is made in heaven and you need to allow an off-ramp so that a new better match could be made or the approach that we are pushing, which is more of a team approach to mentoring, which is the more contemporary approach. And we discuss how to set that up effectively with different layers and so on. But this is something that every organization should have and should revisit to make sure it’s effective because not only is it great for the mentor, not only is it great for the mentee, it’s also great for the organization. Those who are mentored actually have greater loyalty to the organization. It’s one of the best retention tools out there.

John (07:53): Yeah, absolutely. So we kind of glossed over your initial statement was that we know that they perform better. So let’s maybe break down kind of specific, and I don’t know, it’s hard to give an example maybe or case study, but in this case maybe it’s not. But what are some very specific benefits to really both parties, the person being mentored? Because I’m guessing that you’ve got some examples of people who have been mentors that say, you know what? I get as much out of this as I give.

Ruth (08:20): Yes, we have definitely interviewed many people from all over the world, but some of the most popular examples are that people who are mentored earn more money. They’re happier in their job and in their career. Why? Because your mentor will tell you, Ruth, you have been sitting in that chair doing the same job long enough. It is time to throw your hat in the ring and apply for the promotion. And then I might say, I’m not ready. I don’t meet all the criteria, all the usual conversation. And they said, nobody meets all the criteria. Put your hat in the ring and try. And when you get it, surround yourself with people that can advise you and you can ask questions, et cetera. So they give you that encouragement, they give you those guardrails, and again, they push you out of your comfort zone with that promotion comes more money, et cetera, et cetera.

(09:14): Why is it great for the mentors? The mentors are also learning from the mentees because they’re open to new knowledge. And I study, I’m a social scientist. I study extreme high achievers, Nobel Prize winners and astronauts and Olympians. And we share many of those stories in the book as well. And every single one who has served as a mentor will share how much they have learned from their mentees. One of the people was Dr. Bob Lefkowitz who won the Nobel Prize in 2012, and he shared the Nobel Prizes, usually shared two or three people. And one of his first questions when he got that 4:00 AM phone call was, who am I sharing the Nobel Prize with? And they told him, and it turned out it was his former mentee. And I said to him, that’s strange that you’re sharing that Nobel Prize, the biggest prize of your career with a former mentee. He said, strange. He said, that is the biggest honor. There is a mentor measures their success by the success of their mentees.

John (10:23): Wonder how many was

Ruth (10:23): Brilliant.

John (10:24): Well, yeah, I mean I think that’s definitely the right way to look at it. I mean, as leaders, that’s our job, right? That’s right. So I wonder, and you might know this, how many people who have been mentored then go on inside the organization to become mentors? So they’ve been mentored, become mentors.

Ruth (10:41): So the mentee becomes the

John (10:43): Mentor. They had that experience. It was a great experience for them. They’re like, I’m going to do that too, or I’m going to give back. You probably have some All of them.

Ruth (10:49): Yeah, all of them. Especially if they were mentored. Well, they always want to pay it forward. And that’s one of the great things. I have achieved great heights because of these doors that were open for me, because of the advice that I’ve received, because of the guidance, because of those guardrails, because of those stretch assignments, I now want to pay it forward. And this is really how you create not just the retention, but you also create this pool of high achievers because everyone is lifting up the next person. But the truly great organizations, even the C-suite and the CEO, all of them have mentors as well. Yeah.

John (11:31): So this is a tricky question, particularly coming from a white male. Is there significant data that suggests certainly women, minorities that maybe unfortunately still face some disadvantages in the workplace that this is even a greater boost for them?

Ruth (11:47): So there’s quite a bit of data on this, and a lot of it says also that women are over mentored, but under sponsored, and we know this, what we are advocating for is that you don’t only look for mentors who look like you. And this is especially for women and those in underrepresented groups, and that’s for two reasons. One, you’ll be in an echo chamber. Absolutely, they should be on your mentoring team because there is that empathy and that emotional intelligence that you can grasp onto. But you will be in an echo chamber if you only hear about experiences like yours. Second, there’s a very limited number of people who at those higher levels, and if every woman is going for the few women who are in the C-suite, they’re not going to have time to do their job. And then that creates a whole other problems as well.

(12:42): This goes back to what we were advocating for at the beginning, get a team of mentors. So if you are a woman, somebody, at least one person on your mentoring team will be a woman. If you are an underrepresented group, at least one person on your mentoring team will be of an underrepresented group. But you also want people who are different than you so that you can learn from them as well. And you want people inside your industry, outside your industry, senior to you at your level, junior to you across those industries, cross departments within your organization. The more people you have and they don’t all need to meet together to discuss your future, the better it’s going to be, the more perspectives you’ll have access to.

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Ruth (14:59): There are the mentors that do not do a good job, what we call TOR mentors.

(15:05): These are the people who are jealous of their mentee’s success. These are the people who don’t want their mentee to shine because they’re afraid it’ll take away from them. These are people who are very possessive of their mentees, don’t have the bandwidth to take on a mentee or not sharing. They’re keeping some information hidden. This is not good. And the bad part about this is that bad mentorship is worse than no mentorship. And the reason for that is if I’ve been burned by a bad mentor, I am not rushing to find a new one. And that’s the problem because of what we discussed at the beginning and that those who are mentored out earn and outperform those who are not.

John (15:47): So that leads me to, as a mentor, what are there a set, I’m sure anybody can learn to be a good mentor, but are there a set of qualities that are sort of human nature that really kind of make somebody a better mentor than another?

Ruth (16:03): There are. I think there are a lot of qualities in, the good part is they can all be learned. A lot of it is hear what’s not being said, see what’s not being done. Start making those connections. Start pushing your mentee of the comfort zone, the things that we talked about at the beginning. If you’re able to make someone better than they could be on their own and in a shorter amount of time than having them figure it out on their own, you’ve succeeded.

John (16:33): So you’ve said here what’s not being said twice now, and I’m just guessing there’s some people out there that are like, wait, tell me what that really means. How do you do that?

Ruth (16:43): It takes a lot of active listening, hearing when they’re telling you something. You want to start peeling layers of an onion, right? Why is it that you are saying that? Why is it that you’re doing things a certain way? And start asking those why questions a lot and then start making connections for them that they might not be able to see on their own. And once you’re able to make the connections and you see their face light up, that’s when you know you’ve got them on something good. Now you can start coming up with a plan, alright, we agree that this is what you want to do. Now let’s figure out how you’re going to get it done.

John (17:20): So I had what I would call a mentor. We didn’t officially call it that, and he would drive me crazy because he would always just say whatever I said, he said, tell me more about that, until I would loop myself into a puddle because I had nothing left to say. So at what point do you see this as culture and inside an organization?

Ruth (17:42): I think it needs to be culture. I think it needs to be inculcated into the culture of every single person who’s there into the fabric of who they are into their mission. Because if we know it works and if we know it makes the employees better and the organization better, I want someone to give me an argument about why we shouldn’t be doing it. Right.

John (18:04): Well, Ruth, it was great having you stop by a few moments, share with our listeners. You want to tell people where they might connect with you or certainly find a copy of your guide to mentoring.

Ruth (18:13): Absolutely. So I am Ruth, Ian, wherever you are on social media, I am there. The book is called Financial Times Guide to Mentoring. And wherever you love buying books, that’s where you’ll find it.

John (18:27): Awesome. Again, appreciate yourself. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

The “Bonfire Moment”: How to Solve People Problems for Startup Success

The “Bonfire Moment”: How to Solve People Problems for Startup Success written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Martin Gonzalez, a seasoned expert in startup dynamics and co-author of “The Bonfire Moment: Bring Your Team Together to Solve the Hardest Problems Startups Face.”

Martin Gonzalez is the creator of Google’s Effective Founders Project, a global research program that decodes the factors that enable startup founders to succeed. He also works closely with Google’s engineering and research leaders on org design, leadership and culture challenges. Martin is a frequent lecturer at Stanford, Wharton and INSEAD, and has advised leaders across the Americas, Europe, Africa and Asia. He studied organizational psychology and behavioral science at Columbia University and the London School of Economics.

Martin shares invaluable insights into transforming startup challenges by revolutionizing team dynamics through a powerful workshop known as the Bonfire Moment.

Key Takeaways

Martin Gonzalez highlights the critical need for startups to address people issues early on, citing the Bonfire Moment workshop as a powerful tool for transforming team dynamics. By fostering open communication, self-reflection, and conflict resolution, startups can establish a healthy culture conducive to sustained growth. Implementing the Bonfire Moment workshop proactively enables startups to mitigate risks, promote collaboration, and optimize team performance, ultimately positioning them for success in today’s competitive landscape.

Questions I ask Martin Gonzalez:

[01:31] Is there a set of hardest problems startups face or does every case differ?

[02:41] Explain the concept of the one-day get together

[04:25] How do you effectively set up the one-day sessions up for success?

[04:30] What about people who have doubts about links?

[07:53] What have you learned from your experience facilitating healthy arguments?

[10:03] Would you say that a lack of leadership training is a blindspot for most founders?

[12:31] To what degree soes self-awareness of the leader play a role?

[13:14] Do you think it’s possible to be genuinely successful without a healthy culture?

[15:18] How important is it to have a second-in-command in the rare case of an apathetic leader?

[16:33] What are some of the tell-tale signs that show founders might need to start looking towards a bon fire approach?

[17:45] What does a typical agenda look like on a Bonfire day?

[21:03] Where can people connect with you and learn more about the Bonfire moment?

More About Martin Gonzalez:

Connect with Martin on LinkedIn
Visit his website and preorder The Bonfire Moment here

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

Connect with John Jantsch on LinkedIn

This episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Work Better Now

Visit WorkBetterNow.com mention the referral code DTM Podcast and get $150 off for your first 3 months.

Duct Tape Transcript

(01:03): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Martin Gonzalez. He’s the creator of Google’s Effective Founders Project, a global research program that decodes the factors that enable startup founders to succeed. He also works closely with Google’s engineering and research leaders on org design leadership and culture challenges. We’re going to talk about a book he co-authored The Bonfire Moment, bring your team together to solve the Hardest Problems Startups face. So Martin, welcome with the show.

Martin (01:37): Thanks for having me, John.

John (01:39): So is there a set of the hardest problems startups face or is it different for everyone?

Martin (01:45): Well, what’s interesting is that there’s a lot of research that talks about the top reasons for failure in among startups. There’s a few decades of research actually, and what has been revealed by some studies out of Harvard and McKinsey is that 65% of startups fail because of people issues, and we see that in our work with startups across 70 countries today. Bill Curran, who is now a Sequoia Capital partner, said it really well once he said, engineering is easy, people are hard, which is something we like that verbiage

John (02:22): You in fact, in the writeup for the book description of the book, you actually start with building team is harder than building tech. So obviously we’re going to dive into that a little bit. One of the things that I thought was interesting is that one of the core, I guess, tactics that comes out of the book is this idea of the all day get together. So talk a little bit about that.

Martin (02:46): Yeah, so the book actually shares with really the world now a workshop that we had built within the Google Accelerator about nine years ago now. Back then we had a lot of content around engineering and marketing and sales, and then when we discovered this research around why startups fail, I asked for a small budget to pilot something and then it was in Jakarta, but when we brought it there, it was rated pretty highly against even some of these really valuable programs around engineering and marketing and sales. We thought, okay, probably an anomaly. Let’s try again. We tried it in Bangalore, and again, it received such rave reviews that we brought it to Sao Paulo and essentially it’s reached all these countries and what we do in the book is we take what was several variations of that workshop and bring it down to a single day that founders and teams can really run on their own.

(03:44): It’s called the bonfire moment because we found that in our work with these leaders, when you bring together really ambitious teams, big goals and tight resources, there’s a certain kind of intensity that the team creates that feels a bit like you’re in the fire constantly. And so the bonfire moment is a chance for the team to step out of that fire and examine it together, bandage up relational wounds, get back in touch with the mission and really prepare themselves for that next push. As you know, the startup life is you’re constantly going from one trek to the next. So the bonfire moment is that workshop.

John (04:26): So I think in theory, I can envision this being this one day workshop that you run yourself being very effective and as you said, get people back on kind of the mission. But I also see a lot of ways it could go sideways, just kind of turn it into a bitching session or like, what’s wrong here? How do you set it up for success?

Martin (04:45): Yeah, I’ll give you some ways in which it’s gone sideways, but I think specifically around how does this not turn into bickering and digging up additional arguments that weren’t there to begin with? The ethos of the workshop is actually precisely that, which is, let’s dig up all the many people challenges that we have conveniently ignored because there were many other things that were more important during that time. We talked in the book about one of the biggest traps that we’ve seen startups face is this thing we call the trap of speed, which is when you’re running super fast, it’s easy to forget about some of the more subtle issues that really could hurt you in the long run. I mean, we find that it’s the people stuff that tends to get swept under the rug, and so we create a structured environment where people can raise some of these challenging issues, but really talk about it in a productive way.

(05:44): One of my favorite parts of the bonfire moment is what we call the bullshit circle, and the premise of the bullshit circle is that a lot of leaders, people in startups or in startup environments find themselves struggling with a lot of self-doubt and insecurity, and what tends to happen is that the way they mask that is through a few different ways that tends to contribute to some kind of a toxic environment for the team, whether it’s a toxic form of optimism or a toxic form of showing strength or detachments. We talk about those three things actually. We talk about optimism, strength, and detachment as ways that people mask their insecurities, and we invite them to reflect on what is their cocktail of poison, so to speak, that they tend to use in these moments of deep insecurity, and it then invites people to then share that openly and then talk about how that maybe shows up and invites their team to say, look, when you see this in me, really what you’re seeing is a coping mechanism.

(06:49): So we try to create a fairly structured environment so that a lot of this is done in a productive way. The one thing I will say really quickly that I think has gone sideways in these programs is we’ve seen some startups actually recognize that they have some issues that are just insurmountable and that they almost have to use kind of marriage language, some kind of irreconcilable differences, and some startups have parted ways after they’ve had this experience. Now, is that a failure of the workshop? We’d like to think that it’s not because then what we’ve done for this team is we’ve allowed them to be see that sooner and part ways and perhaps apply those learnings and their next thing. Founders are never one-time founders. They tend to found again and again. So that’s one way you’d say it’s gone sideways, but really we see it as a positive. Ultimately.

John (07:42): Yeah, that’s like ending a relationship that rather than hanging on with nobody being happy for two more years or whatever, recognize that it’s over and part ways amicably. You talk about the idea of facilitating healthy arguments. What have you found that creates

Martin (08:00): The best teams we’ve seen have a lot of conflict, but it’s conflict of ideas and not of personalities. There’s a really fun story we tell in the book by a figure in the history of computer science. His name is Bob Taylor. He was a lab manager back in what was called Xerox Spark. Xerox Spark was the place where Bob Taylor was not himself a researcher. He was not himself coding and building the hardware and the tech, which was for him a big upside. He talked about how one of his biggest jobs as a lab manager was to convert class one disagreements to class two disagreements. Let me explain what he meant by that. Class one disagreements are essentially disagreements that feel like straw man arguments where John, if you and I had a disagreement, a really easy way to win that argument is I represent your idea in its weakest form possible and therefore making it easy for me to attack it and to refute it. A class two disagreement on the other hand is where you share your point of view, John, and I’m able to share back to you your point of view in a way that is satisfying to you. So instead of a strong man argument, I create a strong man argument and Bob says that his job isn’t to resolve disagreements, it’s to make sure that all disagreements graduate from class one to class two disagreements. I think that’s one really useful thing that managers and leaders everywhere could really think about.

John (09:38): So one of the things that I’ve certainly recognized, and I’m sure you’ve recognized working with startup founders, a lot of startup founders never got any kind of formal leadership training. I mean, they had an idea, they jumped into it, they tried to make it happen, and then next thing they turn around and there’s 15 people standing around that they really have no skills, but maybe just no experience on how to manage. Do you feel like that’s really the sort of the blind spot for most startup founders?

Martin (10:08): Yeah, and I think that’s why this workshop really gained popularity, not because there was anything groundbreaking about it, but really it’s because a lot of founders come into this work wanting to just build product, and they realize that as soon as they need to scale this product, they need to put a team around it and then build a company around it if they wanted to scale. And so indeed, I think there’s another element to this too, John, which is there’s something in our culture that looks at these people problems as maybe not that difficult to solve for, and you’ll see that in the language. People will say, oh, it’s not rocket science, but we write in the book actually that what’s ironic about that statement, it’s not rocket science, is that as a civilization, we’re incredibly good at rocket science. We can launch a person on the moon within two kilometers of the estimate, but we’re not so good at the people stuff. So it’s an interesting expression in our culture.

John (11:07): It’s my pleasure to welcome a new sponsor to the podcast. Our friends at ActiveCampaign, ActiveCampaign helps small teams power big businesses with the must have platform for intelligent marketing automation. We’ve been using ActiveCampaign for years here at Duct Tape Marketing to power our subscription forms, email newsletters and sales funnel drip campaigns. ActiveCampaign is that rare platform that’s affordable, easy to use, and capable of handling even the most complex marketing automation needs, and they make it easy to switch. They provide every new customer with one-on-one personal training and free migrations from your current marketing automation or email marketing provider. You can try Active Campaign for free for 14 days and there’s no credit card required. Just visit activecampaign.com/duct tape. That’s right. Duct Tape Marketing podcast listeners who sign up via that link will also receive 15% off an annual plan if purchased by March 31st, 2024. That’s active campaign.com/duct tape.

(12:12): Now, this offer is limited to new active campaign customers only, so what are you waiting for? Fuel your growth, boost revenue and save precious time by upgrading to active campaign today. So a lot of trying to think of the way to say this, A lot of the leadership dysfunction, there’s a good way to say it probably comes about because we talked about not having the experience, but also maybe their own fears and insecurities are really masked by having to be in charge. What level or to what degree does self-awareness of the leader play a role?

Martin (12:48): I think it’s huge though. I will say that I have learned in my years of supporting leaders that I think it’s important to firstly know thyself and then get over thyself, which I think is an element of the advice that is often lost, which is it’s important to know what your defaults are, who are you authentically, and then recognize what context you’re in and then make the shifts accordingly. I think being completely, I think just being completely yourself and knowing yourself is not nearly enough.

John (13:25): Do you think it’s possible to build something extraordinary without a healthy culture?

Martin (13:33): So surely we’ve seen a lot of really successful companies get built on a very toxic environment, and when founders come to me and ask me, well, how about this company and that company? My often response is that I go by the data. You can be an anomaly where you kind of beat the norm where you can create very toxic environments and beat the odds and build something tremendously successful, and then you can go by the data where the data shows that good healthy cultures actually surpass. There’s this really interesting study that was done out of Germany, a university in Germany. They looked at about four decades of data and they looked at what was the real economic upside of a healthy culture. What the study showed was that on regular years, on decades where there was not a big financial crisis, the benefits of a culture were very subtle, almost nil. It’s in those crisis decades during the global financial crisis or the.com crisis. That’s where you saw the real upside of these healthy cultures. And so we tell founders that the value of a good culture is subtle in calm waters, but pronounced in a storm.

John (14:51): I think we saw that from the pandemic. Frankly, the whole quiet quitting thing was really just people saying, I don’t want to work here anymore.

Martin (14:59): And look, John, if you look at all the really successful toxic companies these days, I’ll bet you that the moment their stock drops by a bit, their best people are gone. Money and a big mission can only keep someone there long enough for so long. At some point, good people realize they have options and they go,

John (15:24): I don’t think you talk about this in the book, but I’m curious, let’s say a startup. I mean there are some people that just aren’t good people that don’t have empathy, that don’t have self-awareness. Maybe how important is it to maybe find a second in command, so to speak, type of role that can play that part for a founder?

Martin (15:42): So I think it definitely can mitigate, it can definitely help. There are certain things you just can’t delegate, like being a decent human being to your team. There’s a really interesting study that,

(15:56): There was an interesting study that came out of MITI believe, that looked at whether adult supervision actually helped mitigate some of the downsides of maybe an inexperienced founder, CEO. And you see this a lot in the startup in the tech startup world, and what it found was that adult supervision actually was effective if the founder CEO had the certain amount of openness and allowed the adult in the room to make decisions on their behalf. But in environments where founder CEOs have brought in the token adults and then anyway made decisions themselves without giving control to the adults in the room, then you see no, in fact, you might even see negative effects of that.

John (16:44): What are some of the signs that a founder should start recognizing that would say, Hey, we need to do something intentional, like a bonfire type of approach.

Martin (16:55): We like to tell founders that you should do the bonfire moment as early in the journey as possible. We see this as good prevention now. We’ve also seen a lot of breakthrough in founder teams in startup teams when they do it even down the line. I think when you start to see elephants in the room, those issues that everyone knows about but no one wants to talk about, that’s one red flag. When you see issues where their feelings of unfairness between equity holders, that’s another red flag. When people are feeling like we’re not as committed as one another, we aren’t pulling our weight to make this succeed. Those are other signs too, but I’d say as early as possible is always better.

John (17:44): Yeah, it’s probably harder to fix a damaged culture than it is to just create a good culture, right?

Martin (17:49): Yeah, no, this is true. It is so true.

John (17:52): Yeah. So walk us through, and it doesn’t have to be the full one, but walk us through what a kind of typical agenda of a bonfire day. Is that what you call it? Bonfire day?

Martin (18:01): Well, we call it the bonfire moment. It’s four parts. It’s facing hard truths. It’s part one. Part two is noticing hidden dynamics. Part three is dropping the masks, and then part four is resolving unspoken issues. So at the start of the day, we really begin by creating a moment for feedback and self-reflection. We ask founders to think about how they’re performing as members of that team. We offer them a self-assessment, which they can access through our website. It has them reflect on what we’ve seen to be the best strategies that founders have deployed, and through that exercise, we then invite them to help each other through some of the biggest gaps that they’ve seen. By the way, for those who want to go even deeper, we also have an option for them to do a 360 degree feedback option where they invite feedback from their co-founders, their employees from their investors, and then we ask them to write up what we’ve called a user guide, which is part two, which is we invite them to think about what are some of the defaults I have as I do my work.

(19:11): We also invite them, and this is one of the more popular parts of the user guide, we invite them to reflect on what are their motivations for being here. We talk about the head heart in the wallet as what we’ve found to be three of the most typical motivations that founders or startup folks bring into their work. It’s either head, is this about the intellectual challenge of solving a difficult problem with very elegant technical solutions? Is it hard? Is it because you’re committed to a user group that you want to improve their lives or improve some part of that industry? Or is it wallet, which is yes, money, but it’s also what we’ve called a social wallet, which is I get access to people, I get to associate with other people or have a title that I would otherwise not have because of this without this startup.

(20:01): So that’s the second part of the day. Then we invite them to what I’ve mentioned earlier on called the bullshit circle, which is we invite them to reflect on the biggest insecurities they bring, and then finally, we then have them look through really the top 20 sources of conflict that we’ve seen in our work with startups, and we invite ’em to reflect on which of those 20 items have they not yet prepared for or spoken about. And to give you a sense, we talk there about how do we want to spend our money or do we value things like an expensive office space, or if the media asks one of us to represent the work, who’s going to be that spokesperson? Because we’ve seen this phenomenon of the Invisible Founder where there’s a spokesperson that’s public, meanwhile everyone else is working hard in the back room. You don’t want that kind of imbalance of receiving recognition for the work. And that’s the day, as you can imagine, it’s an intense day. It’s intense, it’s uncomfortable. It’s teams emerge from that day with a lot of renewed energy for the work.

John (21:09): Awesome. Well, Martin, I appreciate you taking a moment to share with the Duct Tape marketing audience. You want to invite people where they might connect you and obviously find out more about the bonfire moment.

Martin (21:19): Yeah, great. And thank you for having me. So you can find more information on bonfire moment.com, and we’re also active on LinkedIn, and so you can find us there. Thank you so much for having me, John.

John (21:30): You bet. Well again, appreciate you. Bye-Bye. And hopefully we will run into you one these days out there on the road.

Inside Out: Unlearning it all and Building Leadership from Within

Inside Out: Unlearning it all and Building Leadership from Within written by Tosin Jerugba read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Scott Stratten. President of UnMarketing. Scott Stratten has Co-Authored 6 best-selling business books with his business partner and wife Alison and was formerly a music industry marketer, National Sales Training Manager, and a College Professor. They ran one of the most successful viral video agencies in the world for nearly a decade before solely focusing on speaking at events for companies like Walmart, Pepsi, Adobe, IBM, Microsoft, Cirque du Soleil and Saks Fifth Avenue when they need help navigating their way through the landscape of business disruption. UnLeadership: Make Building Relationships Your Business.

Key Takeaways

In this riveting episode Scott Stratten discusses the concept of Unleadership. A sequel to their practical and effective ideas on Unmarketing. Drawing from their four-page chapters book, Scott compares leadership to culture as it continues to be made of the unseen “everyday stuff”, as opposed to what you can make a picture out of such as: a person addressing a team of individuals.

Beginning with a dose of self-awareness and the fact that “you don’t know what it’s like to work for you”. Scott challenges leaders to define what a ‘job’ really is and to question what they consider ‘insurbordination’ in the workplace, touching on the other side of the coin: the overused, misused phrase ‘we are a family’ when referring to the business, and many other overlooked yet relatable pointers in building professional and empathetic subordinate relationships required to achieve set company goals and build a culture that is understood even at the very top of the organisational structure.

Questions I ask Scott Stratten:

[01:59] When is the aptly named revised edition of ‘QR codes, kill kittens’ coming out?

[06:16] What is unleadership?

[07:26] Would you say that most leaders need to unlearn what they’ve been taught?

[15:18] Talk about how leadership is a creative act?

[16:26] How do we draw the line between the family concept of the workplace and being cordial?

[20:16] Do you have a story that sets a great leadership example of somebody you profile?

[22:23] Where can people connect with you?

More About Scott Stratten:

Connect with Scott on LinkedIn
Visit their Website

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

Connect with John Jantsch on LinkedIn

This episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by ActiveCampaign

Try ActiveCampaign free for 14 days with our special offer. Sign up for a 15% discount on annual plans until Mar 31,2024. Exclusive to new customers—upgrade and grow your business with ActiveCampaign today!

Duct Tape Transcript

John (00:16): Made. What you just heard was a testimonial from a recent graduate of the Duct Tape Marketing certification intensive program for fractional CMOs marketing agencies and consultants just like them. You could choose our system to move from vendor to trusted advisor, attract only ideal clients, and confidently present your strategies to build monthly recurring revenue. Visit DTM world slash scale to book your free advisory call and learn more. It’s time to transform your approach. Book your call today, DTM world slash scale.

(01:03): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Scott Stratten. He’s the president of UnMarketing. His co-authored six bestselling business books with his business partner and wife Allison, and was formerly a music industry marketer, national sales training manager and a college professor. If we could just add NBA started, it would be amazing.

Scott (01:29): It just

John (01:29): All how professional speaker for companies like Walmart, Pepsi, Adobe, IBM, Microsoft, and the list goes on. But today we are going to talk about his book, leadership Making, make Building Relationships Your Business. So welcome, Scott.

Scott (01:46): John. If it wasn’t for my height, my endurance, my strength, my shooting ability, my defending ability and rebounding, I would be in the NBA. Thank you for having me on, John. It’s wonderful to see you again

John (01:56): As with all of us.

Scott (01:57): Exactly, exactly.

John (01:58): Here’s what I really want to know. When is the revised edition of QR codes kill kittens coming out?

Scott (02:05): The best part. The best. I know it’s a joke, but the best part about that is when you write a book called QR Codes Kill Kittens, which is a business picture book of business screw ups. When a New York Times reporter during a pandemic, Googles QR codes because they’re doing a story on how crazy they’ve been. Whose name do you think comes up first for them? Every single time I got into New York Times twice, including I have it right here beside me for my mom, an edition of the New York Times just because of that. So it’s like if it didn’t bring me anything and people were every single, I swear John, every time it came up in the news somebody, people would forward it to me. What do you think now? What do you think now? And I’m like, it only took a pandemic. And for Apple to make the iPhones have it natively in the camera. That’s all. That’s all. Congrats. Save the kittens.

John (02:55): Yeah, but they still don’t belong on Billboards on the Highway

Scott (02:58): Though. But they still don’t belong a billboard. They still don’t belong in an email. All the rules still apply. It hasn’t changed. Go back, look, go to the tape. You have me. My about it was a Whataburger conference and I had told them, I said there, I’m like in a closed system, great boarding pass killer concert ticket. Awesome. You walking around in public, not as easy to do. If you’ve ever seen a human being, it just, it doesn’t always work. So yeah, so congrats. The QR codes, they’re the true winner of the pandemic.

John (03:26): That’s right, that’s right. Good point. So one of the things I like about this book is that the chapters are all really short. There are 70 like four page chapters, and I get excited when I finish a chapter.

Scott (03:40): One of the great things with, I’m such a lucky human because Allison is a brilliant writer and I run after squirrels. I just run around and there is a reason why I got so big on Twitter, right? That’s about my length of my focus of time that I can write things for. And so when originally marketing was doing, I was writing it in the way that I thought, which was very short, great chapters. And Allison just ran that with the baton. And when we got to on leadership, one of the really key things, and the reason why there’s 70 smaller chapters in it is because if Allison, and I believe that one of the most important parts of leadership is self-awareness. Meaning knowing what you can and can’t do and knowing your people as well and how you affect them. That we can’t talk about leadership because Allison and I are blessed with the fact that we don’t go into work, that we don’t have a boss, that we don’t have a corporation and we don’t have, it’s easy for me to get on stage and say, just do this and then I get to go home.

(04:38): But for us, we wanted to say, look, if self-awareness was the key, we have to be self-aware. And so we found, we looked up and we just figured out over an extended period of time, as you’re getting a book together, you just ideas start popping and popping. And we came up with 53 UN leaders that we had learned from and either gotten to know or knew from afar over the past 15, 20 years and decided Allison interviewed every single one of them for an hour, boiled all their thoughts down to about 1100 words each and put it and put it all together. And it’s the most diverse group of industries, of levels and of human beings that we think we could find for it. And the best red thread as our Fred Damson would say the best through all of it was almost every single person in the book questioned why they were being asked to be in the book.

(05:29): They didn’t think they were, why would you ask me to be in a leadership book? And the answer was, because you’re asking why? Because you’re not doing these things to be in a leadership book. You’re not doing these things to go trend virally on Instagram or something like that, or LinkedIn or something like that that we got to. It’s one of the wonderful things, not about social media, but being an author and being in this world where we get to go and I get to see so many companies when I go through and talk to so many people and certain things just kind of bubble up to the surface and then we get to go and say, look, here’s our favorite 53 people in leadership. And it is such a joy.

John (06:10): Yeah, that’s amazing. So I guess maybe we better let you define it Al Bite, what is UN leadership?

Scott (06:18): I think leadership is really, it goes with all of our other uns, the unselling, unbranding and on marketing stuff, which is leadership is moments. It’s not in the time where leadership is not a performance review, leadership is not an all hands meeting and you get up and talk to the team, leadership is made up of everyday things because we understand that it’s like the word culture. Okay, and well, what is that? Well, it’s very simple. It’s how the person at the bottom of the org chart feels. Culture is driven top down and felt bottom up. I just did it last week. I was in front of a bunch of leaders in a room and I looked at him, I said, none of the actual culture of your company because you have power. And the culture is felt by that bottom rung. And that’s where leadership is, people looking at the people below them as their inspiration versus the people above them. That’s really what it comes down to me.

John (07:10): So a theme of really all of your books is to somewhat say what we commonly take as marketing or as selling or as leadership maybe is wrong. And that there is, here we go, pun unlearning that we have to do. I mean, would you say that’s true that most leaders or many leaders need to unlearn what they’ve been taught?

Scott (07:31): I think really it really comes, yeah, I think people individually, because the reason why I say people is because you can’t try to figure out or shift or change as a leader and not as a person. So if self-awareness is really huge, and I beg of people to hear that, that self-awareness is such a huge key to not now going forward, but also in the world that I don’t think you put on your professional persona and you can be self-aware and you then take it off and you’re not. And I think one of the things is realizing that we are part of the situation. It’s like saying for me, example, every single relationship that I broke up with somebody, every broken relationship I’ve had in my life, and there’s been many, I’m the only common denominator in those. It was never my fault, but I’m the only common denominator.

(08:25): So starting to realize those things and if you wanted to have a different relationship, maybe look at yourself too. I’ll give you an example of that even though this is right down the personal side of the road, but it’s like the phrase, you ever heard that that phrase John, that old phrase, right? Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? They usually say that line about marriage, and I’d always hear that and I’m like, yeah, that’s a good point, right? What I never thought, what I never thought was there was a third option, I be wrong, possibly wrong. Not just are you right or you’re happy, but maybe also looking at what you could be wrong. And that was never part of that equation. That was never part of that answer. It’s right or happy. No, maybe to submits you’re wrong sometimes.

(09:09): And it’s a fascinating thing in leadership that we don’t take that look at a company, look at a company with let’s say five levels, c, EO, and then we have vp, director, manager. Then the bottom of the org chart, what you drive down is the weight gets heavier and heavier as it goes down. And if you want to know how things are going, do you want to know how to be more efficient? Do you want to know how to hold onto your people they know? They all know The problem is anytime we go against what the upstream is saying, we call it insubordination, except the only way to innovation is through insubordination. Think of every company that’s ever innovated it usually broke into or took away or threatened an existing piece of business or existing way of doing something. But that insubordination, and I want you to hear this, anybody listening right now who is in a leadership position, I don’t care how high up or how down low you are, if anybody reports to you, if that individual is talking to you and you feel they’re being insubordinate, meaning they’re disagreeing with you, which is not insubordinate by the way, but they’re disagreeing with you, giving you feedback and saying, I don’t think this is going to work.

(10:14): Do you understand the risk they’re taking, that they are risking potentially their job or their future placement in the company or their relationship with you to drive this home? That’s how important this point is to them. So instead of trying to think of why I’m right or why this person shouldn’t be saying this or they were told something, we hire people so we can use their brains on top of whatever else they’re doing. And you want to keep people listen to them. You want to keep people ask for their feedback. You can use something simple star, continue the most basic thing that a bunch of people have used in the past. What should we stop doing? What should we start doing? What should we continue doing? But we don’t. You don’t know what it’s like to work for you. I put that on the screen on stage and I let it sit there for about 10 seconds. It’s the juiciest 10 seconds of my day because it makes people just shift a bit in their chair. And then I say to them, this can’t be about you personally because I don’t know you, but if you’re getting a little uncomfortable reading this, take note.

John (11:16): It’s my pleasure to welcome a new sponsor to the podcast. Our friends at ActiveCampaign. ActiveCampaign helps small teams power big businesses with the must have platform for intelligent marketing automation. We’ve been using ActiveCampaign for years here at Duct Tape Marketing to power our subscription forms, email newsletters and sales funnel drip campaigns. ActiveCampaign is that rare platform that’s affordable, easy to use and capable of handling even the most complex marketing automation needs. And they make it easy to switch. They provide every new customer with one-on-one personal training and free migrations from your current marketing automation or email marketing provider. You can try ActiveCampaign for free for 14 days and there’s no credit card required. Just visit activecampaign.com/duct tape. That’s right. Duct Tape Marketing podcast listeners who sign up via that link. We’ll also receive 15% off an annual plan if purchased by March 31st, 2024. That’s activecampaign.com/duct tape. Now, this offer is limited to new active campaign customers only. So what are you waiting for? Fuel your growth, boost revenue and save precious time by upgrading to active campaign today. As a side note here, as a speaker, it’s probably was hard to hold on to something for 10 seconds of silence, isn’t it?

Scott (12:42): And it feels like 10 minutes. It’s so great because part of that’s for me is that’s my job. That’s what I do. So doing that type of timing something is really important on impact because also you get on stage and I’m not getting up there saying everybody’s a terrible leader. What I’m saying is we have to shake the entire foundation to say, Hey, because there’s a lot of people right now that are trying to go back to four and a half years ago. There’s a lot of people right now saying, let’s just go back to normal, back to business. And you’re missing the plot, you’re missing everything. People are not going back. Things have shifted. It was the great, we called the bluff. We had resistance to working from home for 20 years. And you know why I say 20 years? Because I asked over 20 years ago to telecommute because we called it telecommuting at the time when my son was about to be born and I traveled to train our distributors in sales and they said, no, we’re not a company that does that.

(13:43): They were also not a company that we were on the internet for a long time. And you look at this stuff and people were just like, I can use that example. And one of the problems, John, is get asked to speak somewhere. They’re like, can you talk to our audience about retaining people nowadays in a younger generation and attracting younger generation, but just don’t bring up two things. Don’t bring up pay and don’t bring up return to office. And I’m like, so the two main things, the two main things, right? It’s like there was a great phrase I saw somebody was speaking at a Davos or something. It’s like having a firefighter convention and not being allowed to talk about water. It’s literally those things. They’re your biggest things or you’re like, Hey, well why don’t we put something on, how do we attract younger people to our industry?

(14:25): And somebody pipes up an intern’s like, why don’t we do something on TikTok? And you’re like, shut up. We don’t do that here. We don’t do that type of stuff. And you’re just like, what are you talking about? What are you talking about? I’m really hoping, I’m trying to get us back to the point of understanding what a job is. A job, somebody working for you is a business agreement. It’s a contractual agreement. I offer you my skills and my intellect. You give me a job description that I’m supposed to follow, including other duties as noted, which is the worst one of the whole job description. And in exchange you give me a compensation package, but we’ve thrown that somehow. It’s just like you work here, you do what I say and you’ll like it. And I’m done with that. And so many people are too. One

John (15:12): Of the early chapters, I think it’s chapter three, chapter four, I don’t have the table here, but you essentially talk about leadership being a creative action or creative act. And I think that is something that so many people miss.

Scott (15:25): You cut out when you said the exact point I was going to talk about, can you repeat it?

John (15:30): The title is, the idea of the chapter is that leadership is a creative act. And that I think that’s a brilliant idea that so many people miss because they think they’re not creative.

Scott (15:42): Well, and that’s part of the point too, right? It’s like when you’re coming together, look, the subtitle is Make building relationships your business. It’s literally about relationship. And when you come together in relationship, the sum of what creates out of that is supposed to be something you can’t do yourself. A leader’s supposed to be able to tap into their people and stuff they didn’t think they had or think that they can come out with. It’s a great one. Jeff Alexander is in one of the chapters, he talks about partnerships even where you’re going into a partnership where you’re supposed to be looking at the other side first when you’re leading, you’re supposed to be what do they need? What do they need versus this is what I’m trying to get out of something. And it’s that same thing as a leadership subordinate relationship as well.

John (16:27): So relationships, connection, group hugs. How do we not make this family? Because I don’t believe it’s a family. I have a family. It’s not

Scott (16:38): Like my business. I agree. I agree with you.

John (16:41): How is this a fine line between when I hear relationship connection, do I start to leap to like, oh, this is a personal thing?

Scott (16:49): Yeah. Well, and that’s the thing. Okay, so there’s a couple of things. So it’s funny is the group that is most against relationships, marketing and connection and leadership are the ones that call their businesses a family. Because what they mean by that is you don’t say anything negative. You don’t bring anything up. You don’t go outside of the house. You don’t go outside. Look, and like you said, I don’t need another one. Allison and I combined have five kids. You can take your own family and do what you need to, but we’re covered here. Okay, we’re covered here. And I’m not rolling the dice again. We got five great ones. I’m not going again for anybody else coming into this. I know the odds. But there’s this thing that the problem is, it’s always the context, right? Because I’ve talked to people privately about it.

(17:31): I brought it up and I said, don’t say we’re a family here it, it’s not good. And nobody, so many people in leadership donors, because they’re the ones saying it and their intent is supposed to be good. But I really want people to go back down to let’s go to, depending on where you’re in school, it could be grade 12 or it could be maybe college. There’s the basic communication model. You just pull that out of a textbook. There’s sender and receiver, and the sender encodes the message they’re going to send and they send it to you. And then in between you there’s noise and then the receiver decodes it and takes it the way they take it. Well, that type of stuff. When you look at somebody who’s about to work here and say, we’re family, you mean one thing, they hear another. It’s just a bad way to put it, first of all.

(18:16): But I really break it down to somebody and say, what do you mean by you mean that you have each other’s back then that is not, we’re a strong team. It’s our wording. Okay, family is, I’m going to feel like I’m going to show up at Thanksgiving. I have to deal with that cousin again. I don’t have to want to see him. I got to see him twice a year. Right? Look, and people use these phrases and stuff too, and we throw them out in leadership without even knowing the context of that. Like the family phrase, blood is thicker than water. You hear that phrase? That’s an old time. And that’s not the saying it’s blood of the covenant is thicker than water of the womb. It’s actually the opposite of what the phrase means. That created connections can be stronger and better than family connections.

(18:59): It’s actually contradicting what you’re trying to do. And that’s where it creeps me out as well. But relationships aren’t about that. Relationship is simply, you are connected to the other person and you understand them. That’s what relationship is to me. A personal relationship is a whole other thing. I don’t think that you should have to do anything outside of the office for your job. I don’t think you should lose anything because of that. I think that I do my job and I do it well. The problem is people’s definition of, well, a team player comes out for drinks, A team player comes on, does this type of thing, going to chip in for the boss. We’re getting a gift for the boss. Jurgen chip ins, by the way, stop that. Money flows down, not out. There’s no bosses. You don’t buy bosses day stuff. Fundraising is inappropriate to do in the office when it’s directly threatened to somebody saying walk into their cubicle and say, are you going to fundraise? These type of things, no, because they’re like, well, this is professional. You’re not professional. So much of what we say and do is not in these workplaces, but they say, well, we’re this, no, it’s rules for the and not for me a lot of times when it comes to these things.

John (20:08): So you mentioned, and I know this is going to be hard for you, I’m going to do it anyway, there were 53 people you interviewed. Do you have a favorite story? It doesn’t have to be a favorite story. Do you have a story you like to tell as a leadership, a great leadership example of somebody you profiled?

Scott (20:22): Dr. Derek Kayongo. He is one of my favorite people on the planet, and for a few reasons. One, he’s the best dresser I’ve ever seen in my life. He’s the coolest person I’ve ever met in my life. But beyond that, he’s the most genuine, caring person. One of the people I’ve met in my life, Derek, one of the things he noticed when he came over to America when he was stayed at hotels was that they were throwing away the soap. And he came from a country that, well, they didn’t have a lot of soap, and that would be really fricking cool if all the Soapies would throw out would go over to where I’m from. And he created an entire organization and got the entire entire country to get their soap all sent back. And they had a whole thing and disinfected it. And he created an entire soap company, saw a problem.

(21:13): I have a man bun and Derek changed the world in soap. So it’s like I spoke after him at an event and he got up there and then it was like the Kelly Brothers were the day before. So two astronauts, Derek Kayongo, man, who changed the world with soap. And then I walked on stage. I really got to plan these things better because to the moon, saving the world. And I’m just like, man bun. That’s what I do. I love ’em. But honestly, John, to give you now the cop out answer after that, literally just feed through it and then pick one. That’s Aaron Bur Aaron I knew from Twitter in oh nine, we were all Toronto Twitter people. She ended up creating willful because she noticed that Wills were very cumbersome, very kind of expensive. You had to go through lawyers. She’s like, it makes no sense. So she created Willful. Willful is online Wills in Canada. She went and worked with every province, every law board, everything else. And now she’s got a wonderful company that gives a damn. And I got to watch her build it on LinkedIn all through her posts because she wanted to change the way things were done. And that’s one of my favorite parts of people and of startups and of founders that said, it’s one of my favorite parts about disruption is customers who get so pissed off, they create the alternative. And that’s what she did.

John (22:28): I love that too. Well, Scott, it was awesome catching up with you, having you stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast anywhere you want to invite people to connect with you or find obviously a copy of UN Leadership.

Scott (22:40): Yeah, UN Leadership Available wherever good books are sold. And yeah, we’re at unmarketing.com. Come by, say hi, LinkedIn, Instagram, whatever you want, and just enjoy the book.

John (22:51): If I reach out to you on LinkedIn, do you want me to unfollow you? Is that

Scott (22:55): Yeah. Oh yeah. It’s my last place. I think. I’m like, I’m gone off Twitter. I’m gone off Facebook, but LinkedIn is holding on, so I’m still there for the time being. So hurry up. Awesome.

John (23:03): Alright. All right. Again, thanks for stopping. Bye. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

The Silent Power of Entrepreneurial Self-Exploration

The Silent Power of Entrepreneurial Self-Exploration written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Rob Dubé, a seasoned entrepreneur and co-founder of Image One. Rob is the visionary and CEO of The 10 Disciplines for Managing and Maximizing Your Energy, and cofounder and podcast host of Entrepreneurial Leap. He is also the author of donothing, host of the Do Nothing retreat, and host of the Leading with Genuine Care podcast.

From selling Blow pops in high school to building successful businesses, through his work, Rob challenges business leaders and entrepreneurs to look inward with mindfulness and meditation by sharing his own mindful leadership journey. Co-authored with Gino Wickman “Shine: How Looking Inward Is the Key to Unlocking True Entrepreneurial Freedom”

Key Takeaways

Join Rob Dubé as he shares insights into the profound impact of inner work on entrepreneurial success. Explore how personal growth and self-awareness can transform leadership effectiveness and organizational culture. Discover the importance of saying no often, embracing authenticity, and cultivating stillness in a fast-paced world. Rob’s experiences highlight the significance of understanding oneself deeply to lead with clarity, purpose, and resilience. Unlock the silent power of entrepreneurial self-exploration and embark on a journey of growth, fulfillment, and sustainable success in both business and life.

Questions I ask Rob Dubé:

[00:47] Tell us a little about your entrepreneurial past?

[01:57] How did you working with a start-up like image one in your early days inspire the 10 disciplines in your book?

[04:19] What’s your connection to your co-author; Gino?

[07:05] How do the 10 disciplines show up differently in Shine as opposed to your early work with EOS life?

[12:19] What are some of the benefits and approaches to the discipline of ‘being still’ ?

[15:57] Are there certain rituals and habits that could work for almost anybody?

[13:54] How does a leader help their team adjust to their embracing empathy?

[17:25] What has organizing retreats taught you about self-discovery in leaders?

[19:48] Where can people connect with you, learn more about your work and pick a copy of your book?

More About Rob Dubé:

Connect with Rob on LinkedIn
Visit his Website
Grab a copy of Shine: How Looking Inward Is the Key to Unlocking True Entrepreneurial Freedom

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

Connect with John Jantsch on LinkedIn

This episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Work Better Now

Visit WorkBetterNow.com mention the referral code DTM Podcast and get $150 off for your first 3 months.

Duct Tape Transcript

John (00:08): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Rob Dube. He’s a co-founder of Image One, visionary and CEO of the 10 Disciplines for managing and Maximizing Your Energy. And co-founder and podcast host of Entrepreneurial Leap. He’s also a co-author of a book we’re going to talk about today that he wrote with Gino Wickman has been a guest on the show. The book is titled, shine How Looking Inward is the Key to Unlocking True Entrepreneurial Freedom. So Rob, welcome to the show.

Rob (00:43): Thank you, John. I appreciate you having me. It’s an honor to be here.

John (00:47): I always love exploring a little bit of people’s entrepreneurial past. Are you still involved with Image One that was a significantly different business venture than what you’re seem to be focused on today? So I’d love to go there first, if you don’t mind.

Rob (01:00): Sure. I am involved in the sense that I am a shareholder of the company with the person that I founded it with. Neither of us are involved anymore and we are what you might say in the owner’s box, and we have a CEO who runs it and is much more capable than we are to take it to new heights.

John (01:22): So your current business is much more about working with leaders and as we imply in the book looking inward, it’s definitely a very self exploration type of work. I’m sorry, image one was very much, what would you call it? A software, purely software play

Rob (01:40): Actually. We provide managed print services, which is document management like copiers and multifunction printers for mid to enterprise size organizations.

John (01:52): Okay, so I’ll stop on that except the bridge question, which is how did your work with growing a company like that, which is a little more brick and mortar hands-on ish type of work lead to your discoveries or your exploration of inner and the 10 disciplines that we’re going to talk about?

Rob (02:10): Yeah, so just I’ll go back a little bit. I started my entrepreneurial career selling Blow pops out of my locker in high school. My best friend and I were doing that together and we had all kinds of businesses through high school and college and the audience, usually when I tell that story, many people relate to it because they’ve had some experience of their own doing that or they know somebody who has. When we graduated college, the two of us started this company Image One and it was exciting just to have a business, but I had experienced a great deal of trauma growing up and I wasn’t feeling like I was as good of a business partner as I needed to be a best friend. And I was married at the time, so I just felt like something didn’t feel right. So I started my own journey of inner work to try to find some peace for myself. What I learned along the way was that it was helping me be a better leader at the company. And so that’s really, those many years ago is really where I first started to see the benefits of the work that I’ve done and now to come to where I am today sharing this with leaders, it’s an honor to do so.

John (03:25): Yeah, so it’s funny how often two things you’ve mentioned, how often I hear I started a business when I was in seventh grade or that kind of thing from entrepreneurs. They all have, we all have, right? Mine was a very grunt work. I sealed driveways the company during the summers to pay my way through high school and college. It was awful work, but it paid well. The second thing was a lot of times how many entrepreneurs create businesses around trying to solve their own problem or solve something they couldn’t find in the market? And in a lot of ways that’s what you did. You were trying to solve your own frustration or problem at some level, and that led you to an entrepreneurial discovery, which I think it’s so common. I’m curious, as I mentioned, you co-authored this book with Gino Wickman. Many people are familiar with him, the EOS system that he created and moved out into the world. What’s your connection or what was your initial connection with Gino?

Rob (04:23): So one of the very impactful things that happened along my journey was that eight years into running the business, my best friend and I looked at each other and we said, we don’t know what we’re doing. We’re growing this business, but it is out of control. And someone introduced us to this guy who was just starting up this business to help entrepreneurs get control of all this stuff. When I met him, I really didn’t trust him. At first I thought, I’m not sure about all this stuff, but we ended up becoming one of his first seven clients. He wrote about us in his book Traction, which has been a bestseller, and it really did help us gain control of our business. And so it was a really impactful thing for myself inside because I felt more at peace with my business and a little bit more control. And so that’s how we first met. And then we struck up a friendship and we would meet very often at a coffee shop for many hours. And he taught me many different ways that he was living his life, which we ultimately wrote in part in the book that you referenced.

John (05:35): So in the EOS Life book, which was really again an extension of EOS but into personal life of genomes, it ends with these 10 disciplines. I don’t want to say they’re an afterthought, but there’s certainly an add-on to the book. And forgive me if I’m wrong on this, did you do the audiobook with him?

Rob (05:55): Yes. And thank you bringing that up because they asked me to do that interview for bonus material on the audio book. While I was preparing, I realized these 10 things I have been learning from GTO over the last 20 years and they have impacted my life greatly. So after the interview, the two of us went out to lunch and we started talking about how impactful it’s been, and I said, I think this would be a great thing to teach to entrepreneurs, but I think it goes much deeper than the way you wrote it. And that started our path on really taking a deeper dive into each one of the disciplines and how they actually help us understand ourselves better once we have a better understanding of ourselves, how we can protect ourselves in our lives, meaning having really clear boundaries. So we are focused on the things that make the most impact in this life.

John (06:56): So the 10 disciplines show up as a big large part of this new offering shine. So rather than buy the book, if you want to know what the 10 disciplines are, we might talk about a couple of them, but how do they show up differently in Shine than they did in EOS life?

Rob (07:13): So what we do is we take a deeper dive into five of ’em and really help you understand yourself at a deeper level. Okay, so I’m going to give you a simple example. One of the disciplines is say no often, and this is where we encourage people to get really clear about saying no to anything that doesn’t fit into what their purpose is, how they’re going to make the greatest impact. And what we notice in working with our clients is that they have a hard time saying no. In fact, they’re saying yes to 90% of the requests that come their way. And so that’s high level. So now we have to go a little bit deeper and ask ourselves why do we say yes to so many things that we know don’t really fit into the type of impact that we want to make? And so we go a little bit deeper and then we go a little bit deeper from there as we keep peeling off the layers and helping ourselves to understand better why we’re doing the things that we’re doing so we can change our behavior.

John (08:20): Well, I’ll tell you why we say no or why we say yes to everything is because I think in a lot of ways that’s a protective mechanism, believe it or not, to stop us from doing maybe some of the hard work that we’re afraid to do.

Rob (08:34): Thank you for that, John. That’s definitely one of the things that’s happening. And we see fomo, fear of missing out on a great opportunity, things like that, not wanting to disappoint people. And so when you start to identify those, we’ve just named three between the two of us, you can go deeper. Why am I afraid to disappoint people? What’s that saying about me? And you keep going deeper into that. Where does that come from, et cetera. So that’s why these are so impactful. They really help us take a better look at ourselves

John (09:10): And now a word from our sponsor. Work better now. Work better now provides outstanding talent from Latin America, hand matched to your business with over 40 roles across various industries, including marketing. They’re a reliable partner for consistently finding the perfect fit for your business. Simply tell them what you need and they’ll handle the rest. We have two work better now, professionals on our team, a marketing assistant and a marketing coordinator, and we’ve been blown away by their abilities, responsiveness, and professionalism. They’ve really become an essential part of our growing team. And to top it off, each dedicated and full-time work better now. Professional is 2350 per month and there are no contracts to schedule a 15 minute consultation with a work better now rep and see how they’ll support your business growth goals, visit, work better now.com. Mention the referral code DTM podcast, and you’re going to get $150 off for your first three months. That’s work better now.com. And don’t forget that DTM podcast code. Yeah. And in the end we conclude that it was always our parents’ fault, right? That’s easy out. There’s one of the disciplines is simply stated as know yourself. And while that sounds, I don’t think anybody argue with that. Certainly every leader that has some self-awareness is a better leader. How do you from a practical standpoint, break that down in a way that’s actually going to serve?

Rob (10:43): Yeah, so what we want, what our hope for you is that you realize what your true self is, that you free your true self. And so this is you starting to understand the most authentic version of who you are, and that’s when you start looking at society and the expectations that you’re working with in your life. You start to notice how your identity oftentimes is wrapped around what you do professionally and also your social circles and the things that seem important in those social circles, and really questioning that. This is a very deep dive. Now, practically speaking, how can we start? Well, it depends where you’re at on the continuum. You can do simple things, which I imagine many of your listeners have already done to some degree, which is take a personality profiling tool, take as many as you can and start uncovering all the things that are you.

(11:43): And you can go from there. You mentioned kind of in a funny way about must be our parents’ fault. Well, you can go to therapy. That’s very common days. When I started going many years ago, it didn’t have that same comfort level for many, but you could go to therapy and those are a way to start to understand cause and effect, et cetera. And there are all sorts of modalities that you can explore that really help you to understand yourself better. And we write about those of the books, so there’s a very large list and you can pick and choose what seems to ping you.

John (12:17): Yeah, yeah. So one of the disciplines, probably possibly my favorite, although it took a long time to realize this, and it’s just stated as be still, and I live in a national forest, I have lots of ability to get out into nature and be still. But for a lot of entrepreneurs, that’s actually probably one of the hardest ones for them to do. I mean, we’re so used to the chatter, the noise, the what’s next on my to-do list. What are some of the remedies, I guess for that? Well, let’s start with what are some of the benefits of approaching this discipline and then what are some of the ways to do it?

Rob (12:57): Yeah, so the first thing I always like to share is one of my favorite quotes from the author Ann Lamont. And she says, my mind is like a bad neighborhood. I try to never go there alone. And so as someone who’s having trouble with the Be still, I encourage you to reflect on that quote from Ann Lamont. Sitting is hard because subconsciously we know exactly what’s about to happen. We’re about to put ourselves through all the anxiety and stresses and all the wonderful, beautiful things that happened over the last 24, 48 hours and maybe the last 24 years. You never know what’s going to come up. So why would we put ourselves through that? Well, it starts with our ability to come into the present moment and realizing with great perspective, that’s really all we have, and we want to reinforce that as much as we can.

(13:59): The next thing we want to do is be able to pay close attention to our thoughts and our patterns and our loops and our dramas, and again, allowing for us to bring perspective to what those are and what’s actually going on. And by doing that, we have a greater ability to begin to settle our mind and also settle our nervous system so our bodies and our minds aren’t made to go at the speed that we’re going at. So we’re really adapting real time these days, and it’s of great benefit for our overall health to just settle down much different than sleep. Sleep has incredible benefits and we must do that and get enough of it. But this is different because we are an awake state and we are fully aware of everything that’s going on around us. The sensations, the sensations of sight and smell and hearing and tasting and touching and bringing our awareness to those things. And this, again, I’ll always go back to the word that I like to use, which is perspective. It all brings it into great perspective, whatever it is that we have going on, and hopefully that helps us to carry that through into our regular everyday lives where we get caught up into the many dramas of life or challenges or successes where we can pause and notice that moment as Viktor Frankl says, between stimulus and response and make a choice. And that’s why we encourage people to be still for 30 minutes every day.

John (15:43): And I know probably everybody needs to work out their own rituals or own habits that they practice. Right. Are there some that you think, yeah, make up your own mind, but here’s a couple that you really ought to explore or consider? Are there certain habits, certain rituals? I know you talk about a nightly preparation routine and a morning ritual. Are there some that you think probably work for almost anybody?

Rob (16:10): Well, as it relates to be still, some of the ones that we write about are prayer, contemplation, journaling. You and I just talked about meditation. Those are simple. You can play around with each and every one of them. You could spend 10 minutes journaling, 10 minutes in a quiet meditation, and then 10 minutes in a contemplation, and you could do five, 10 minutes of prayer. So you do have to find what works for you and try your best to not get discouraged. People quickly get discouraged. Primarily the feedback that I get is that they’re just really busy and it feels like a waste of time, so you have to stick with it and know that there’s great benefit down the road for you. This isn’t a quick fix pill that brings you calm because you tried it for a few days or 21 days. It’s a lifelong practice having a routine, same time, same place every day. Maybe it’s the morning before you get your day started or the evening before you go to bed or anything in between. You really do have to play around and find what’s perfect for you.

John (17:25): I know you do, or we were talking about, you’ve been doing a retreat for a number of years that is really a compact way to practice some of what you write about in the book, and I assume that you have worked with some leaders to help them implement some of the ideas and shine. Is there anybody that, I don’t know if you can talk about personal case studies, but have you seen significant discoveries that people have by taking up this type of practice as a leader?

Rob (17:52): Absolutely. I mean, in my retreat, I have high performing entrepreneurs that come once per year. They come for five days. Three of the days are a complete silence, which many of them are very nervous about doing that. At the end of the retreat, we do a closing circle and the emotion and the deep love and peace that comes out of these high performing people that are going a thousand miles an hour, and the inspiration and motivation they have to carry that with them when they come down off the mountain because we do it in the mountains and bring that into their leadership, into their family lives is truly amazing. I always share with them, please bring this practice with you into your daily life. So carry it through and keep it going for 30 minutes a day because it will continue to cultivate and grow, and your mind will be at greater peace not a hundred percent of the time, but it will have greater peace and you will have a greater energy with those around you.

John (19:11): Yeah. You know what I find you talked about mentioned that idea of maybe it won’t be a hundred percent of the time, but I think what does happen, or at least for me, my own experience, is you start to recognize it when it’s not happening, when that piece is not happening. And that to me is that’s half the battle because you get off of the autopilot, you’re like, oh, I’m witnessing this now, and so now I know what to do about it. And I think that’s one of, there is no, like you said, magic pill. I’m going to be happy a hundred percent of the time, but now I’m going to lose some of the stress because I understand it now, if that makes sense.

Rob (19:43): Right? Yep, absolutely.

John (19:45): Well, Rob, I want to thank you for something by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there some place you’d invite people to find out more about your work and obviously pick up a copy of Shine?

Rob (19:55): Yes, absolutely. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to do that. And the listeners can go to the 10disciplines.com and you can find the link to the book there. And many of the things that you and I have spoken about today and many more, we always like to encourage people to take our true self-assessment, a 20-question assessment that will give you a sense of where you are with each one of the 10 disciplines. And then we have 10 additional questions that help you understand where you are in terms of freeing your true self. That’s a great assessment that you could take every 90 days just to shine light where light needs to be shine.

John (20:40): Again, I appreciate you taking a moment, and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

The Ultimate Ranking Recipe: Content, Links & The Power of Persuasion

The Ultimate Ranking Recipe: Content, Links & The Power of Persuasion written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Tim Brown, founder of Hook Agency, a leading SEO and web design firm specializing in home service businesses such as roofing companies, HVAC, and plumbing services. Tim shares his expertise on the ever-evolving world of SEO, shedding light on the crucial components that contribute to successful online visibility and rankings.

Key Takeaways

Tim Brown underscores the pivotal role of quality content and strong backlinks in SEO success, emphasizing the importance of creating original, engaging content tailored to the audience’s needs while acquiring reputable backlinks. Additionally, he highlights the power of persuasive messaging and consistent collaboration between teams to drive engagement and conversions. By leveraging technology while maintaining a human touch, businesses can optimize their SEO efforts and achieve sustained growth in today’s competitive digital landscape.

Questions I ask Tim Brown:

[00:33] What are the big things that have changed in SEO?

[02:03] Would you say Content and SEO go hand in hand?

[02:49] How would you explain the foundation of SEO to a beginner?

[04:30] What about people who have doubts about links?

[07:28] How do you create effective networks?

[18:16] What KPIs should be considered to measure performance and SEO efforts?

[21:47] Where can people connect with you?

More About Tim Brown:

Connect with Ian on LinkedIn
Visit his Website

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

Connect with John Jantsch on LinkedIn

This episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by ActiveCampaign

Duct Tape Transcript

John (00:08): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Tim Brown Hook Agency, a Google paid ads, SEO and web design firm that focuses primarily on roofing companies, HVAC, companies and home services businesses. Some of my favorites. Tim, welcome to the show.

Tim (00:28): Thanks for having me, sir.

John (00:30): So I guess let’s start really broad. What are the big things that have changed in SEO? I don’t know, let’s say over the last couple of years?

Tim (00:39): Oh, yeah. So navigating AI is one of the biggest difficult things that a lot of people are trying to figure out. And I would say the continuing push to push more and more ads onto the front homepage of Google, or competing more and more with paid ads. And it’s the scaling content thing, and I guess it’s Google’s competition with chat g BT that are some of the biggest ones. And I think a little bit more emphasis, it kind of extends outside of SEO now, and people that didn’t have strategies that extended outside of SEO or people that were just SEO specialists should be looking at the other components that relate to marketing. I think it’s just not that SEO is going away. We don’t know. You know what I mean? People ask me that all the time, what’s Google Shelf life and stuff like that. We don’t know. I would say SEO will be around another 10 years, but I’m in the profession, so it’s hard to know. But I think it’s just trying to figure out how to work the other things that interrelate to SEO and work with them together. I think that’s kind of a big thing SEO people should be focused on.

John (01:51): Well, and the biggie of course, I mean, I still fight this battle today. People are saying, yeah, I need somebody to SEO my website. And it’s like, well, there’s no content. There’s nothing there to SEO, so to speak. So I mean, you talk about these related things. I mean, content clearly is married to SEO, right? Oh yeah.

Tim (02:06): Yes, absolutely. And content marketing almost. That could be if you’re an SEO, that could be your intro to really getting into things that are adjacent to SEO, but not technically. SEO in that content is, and it goes outside of SEO because there’s content that we make that has nothing to do with that SEO, but it does generally positively affect SEO when you’re doing good content.

John (02:36): So if you’re trying to help somebody get started, I know you work with some of the, and this may sound stereotypical, but some of the trade professions, they know their business, they know a little about marketing. And so if you were going to try to tell somebody who didn’t know much about SEO, how would you say, here’s the foundation, here’s the elements you need to understand.

Tim (02:57): Yeah, I usually just talk about content and links. So content and links are the two biggest ones. And then when I pepper in the technical or traditional SEO, it’s like your website needs to be fast and well ordered, and it needs to have templates for certain types of content, like with local SEO local landing pages for different cities plus service. So if they’re a roofing company or an HVAC company or plumbing company, plumbing plus Indianapolis, we need those pages and all the suburb pages around them. But it’s a matter of getting those pieces of content out there and then links from other websites. I mean, they don’t know what that means half the time. And I’m so used to dealing with contractors, though I’m used to using the non-technical terms, but it’s just getting a link from other websites back to yours from other, usually they should be in your niche or your locality. So you’re looking for home service or construction related websites to get links to your website. There’s easy ways to do it. I mean, obviously a lot of your audience is probably more advanced on this, but it’s figuring out, for me, it’s figuring out how to, why do I need that stuff? Well, Google needs to know that your website is legitimate, and this is one vote. Every link from a legitimate website is a vote for your website, that your website is important. So that’s kind of one of the ways I talk about it.

John (04:30): And a lot of times, I know a lot of people will say, well, why would somebody link to me? You think about the contractor world, I mean, they work with a lot of subcontractors. They work with suppliers of faucets or plumbing of some sort. They all belong to nri and groups like that. Those are the first places to go get links. They

Tim (04:52): Absolutely, yeah, if you’ve got a distributor or a manufacturer that you have certifications from, if they have a directory of contractors, make sure you’re on that. And you mentioned remodeling one. There’s other ones obviously in different trades. Yeah,

John (05:07): Obviously every industry, yeah,

Tim (05:10): There’s local ones too, right? Your chamber of Commerce that you’re part of should be part of, and you should get that link too and just make sure they’re linking to you. And then if you’re part of a B nine group and they have a website or wherever, all these networking things, and that’s another reason why I say this. SEO effort kind of extends beyond what we’re doing just in SEO, because as we network, we get more opportunities to get links as we do real business, we get opportunity. If you have a manufacturer certifications for manufacturers, those are real opportunities for links too. So a lot of times it’s kind of finding the natural links that would come to you from all the people in your industry. Actually, Tommy Meow, who’s a big home service industry, he’s an awesome dude, and he has a business called the Home Service Millionaire.

(06:01): But he told me this strategy and I did it. He said, go into your QuickBooks and look at everyone you’ve paid in the last three months, and then send them a message, a little quick email or a little video message and text ’em or whatever, and say, Hey, could I do a video testimonial for you? Or could I give you a testimonial? If you’re happy with their services, could I give you a testimonial? Would you consider linking to me on your homepage? And I’ve done that and gotten ones from very big websites. So a lot of times we want to follow the existing relationships and organizations that we’re in and get links that way, and that’s probably untapped for a lot of local home service businesses.

John (06:44): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I’m glad you mentioned the word networking, how I’ve always talked about it as well, as opposed to it being sort of scammy feeling. It’s a very legitimate thing. I want to go back to the location service pages that you mentioned, because that idea, particularly with home services, particularly with local businesses, is a way for them to get found in suburbs, but it’s also very spammy. I mean, it’s been very spammy. I’m not talking about the approach in general. A lot of people have spammed. You go to somebody’s website and it says basically it’s the exact same content, the exact same photos, it just has a different name of a suburb or neighborhood. How do you create those that are actually effective because Google doesn’t like that kind of content either. So how do you create those that are truly effective and useful as opposed to being spammy?

Tim (07:34): Yeah, so I’ve tried that in the past. I think every long time SEO has, I honestly tried to do it with code where it would inject. I put the name in once and then it would put the city name in every, I’ve tried all types of things, and I’ve tried them and failed at them so you don’t have to, so it doesn’t work, or it works for a very short amount of time and then gets devalued. So this is why we’re trying to go for long-term useful content, SEO, because it’s less likely to get, we do a bunch of work and then three years later everything goes down. So we try to make stuff that references real things in that town or city. And I also don’t think it’s the worst thing. It should be original content, but I also don’t think it’s the worst thing to put out 15 of them and then a couple of two or three kind of take off. And then you keep on building into them. You keep on adding more actual local photos. You keep on building out more local focused content. So it’s okay to do 15 all original content, but maybe you’re only doing 500 words or something like that. And then over time, you can really push into them and try to make it more comprehensive.

(08:47): We have the same FAQs on a lot of different pages, but you could also answer them again in a different way. I could answer the question about what is a backlink 25 times a plumber could answer the question, what’s the quickest way to get a toilet unclogged with infinite number of variations around the language that they’re using? So there’s nothing wrong with answering the same questions in a new way. And I think ultimately the content, the more and more you can make it original, the better. Honestly, there’s nothing wrong with starting with lower amounts of content. Then as something pops off, I think about minimum viable content. We need to get a lot of content out there, and a lot of times, and that is the game right now, right? We’re putting out a lot of content and we are AI assisted. We always have every single human, every single piece of content has human edited, and there’s a lot of different opinions in the SEO world about what’s admissible and what’s appropriate and all these different things.

(09:53): I found that I was using AI to create content myself and then modifying it and making it better and using it for research and using it for different things. And I felt like if I’m not doing that for my clients, then I’m almost being like I’m holding them back when I truly believe that this is making my content better because it’s making me quicker on research and on different things. So I felt like it was appropriate based on that to actually move into ai. But there’s different opinions on that, and people that are going full AI with no editing are getting hammered and hurt in the SERPs right now. So search engine result pages. So basically watch out, and this is dangerous, but it’s still effective. So it’s figuring out how to effect

John (10:44): A couple really practical uses there. You talked about having different versions of the same answer to a question. If you write a good solid technical answer and then just take it to AI and say, give me eight variations of this, that to me is a super good use. And certainly if you write a good blog post, asking AI to create title and metadata, meta descriptions, it’s better at that than you and I are once it’s got something good to work with, it’s my pleasure to welcome a new sponsor to the podcast. Our friends at ActiveCampaign, ActiveCampaign helps small teams power big businesses with a must have platform for intelligent marketing automation. We’ve been using ActiveCampaign for years here at Duct Tape Marketing to power our subscription forms, email newsletters and sales funnel drip campaigns. ActiveCampaign is that rare platform that’s affordable, easy to use, and capable of handling even the most complex marketing automation needs.

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Tim (12:30): I also like the get the transcript from YouTube. Let’s say you made a video that was about something very technical and you have subject matter expertise in that video, using the transcript and turning it into a blog post, still customize it, make freshen it up, make sure it’s human readable and feels good, and then embed the video at the top of the post. And if it wasn’t your video, make sure you’re linking to their website. But I think if it’s your video, ultimately you could rep content repurposing, I think is kind of what you’re getting at there too. John is like, AI is so good at content repurposing, and I like anything with ai, we’re using a smaller data set than just the entire internet. I feel like the entire internet is full of garbage. If you really mixed it all together, it’s just a garbage soup. But if we fed it, let’s, let’s say you’re an HVAC company and you’re a carrier dealer and you fed it their manual and you used it to build up for carrier products that way, that would be an incredible use. Basically, smaller data sets better information.

John (13:45): And the thing I love about video or audio transcripts too, is you automatically get the voice and tone and style of the speaker, which is something that again, really informs the AI to speak like you do. And I think that’s a really important element of it. So

Tim (14:01): As people get, lemme do one last 20 seconds on this topic. People get more and more focused on ai. There’s an opportunity to return to the fundamentals of marketing, especially if AI is automating some busy work for you. So return to the learn about persuasion in the fundamentals of marketing, and it will inform everything you’re doing. So it’s great to use ai, but it should free up some of your time to then go back and get better at persuasion.

John (14:33): So we started talking a little bit about video as it relates to other content creation, but how about just video itself? Do you think that today, the world we live in today, everybody should have a YouTube channel. They should be creating video content, they should be publishing it in all the places you can publish.

Tim (14:52): I’m long video. I’m long video, and you know what I like about it? I like that it teaches me things about attention and grabbing attention. I love SEO, okay, we get a lot of leads from our own SEO, and I believe in it for if 70, 80% of the clicks on Google are going to organic, then you shouldn’t neglect it, even if it’s hard. Some people want to watch video, so I incorporate it into most blog posts. We’re incorporating some kind of video. And then I think the short form video stuff, the TikTok Instagram stuff of the world, it’s showing us how to grab attention quicker, getting better at it. In the last two days, videos on our TikTok and Instagram have gotten over 2 million views, and this is niche stuff. This is roofing. So it is crazy what’s possible. And it also teaches you things about how quick everybody’s attention span is these days and how can we feed that a little?

(15:56): How can we be part of it? I’m not trying to create the problem, but I’m trying to ride the wave. If that’s what’s happening, then I’m going to try to learn it, and then I think you could apply those principles to your other content. I believe most people should be experimenting with video, and I think it’s okay if you’re considering it experiments, and I think it’s great to fail at it a lot and you still get better. We all get better by failing at it a lot. And it is, but I don’t know if everyone should be chasing virality. Local home service businesses should not be chasing virality. They should be chasing sales enablement video content, and then entertainment. Entertainment though sometimes goes viral. So the point is is I do think home service businesses should not just be informing, they should be also entertaining their ideal customers.

John (16:45): Yeah, I remember we have a client that’s a home remodeler and they’ve been in the video for a long time, and the video that to this date got them the most attention and the most clicks was a couple guys were taking a deck, they were going to replace a deck on the back of a house. They were taking the deck off and there was a whole family of raccoons in there, and they videoed that and then shared that. And of course, it didn’t have anything to do with the business, but everybody loved it. And so I think it does. I think actually, like you say, showing the human side is great, but I totally agree with you. I mean, what you really want to get is business objectives.

Tim (17:19): Absolutely. And so it’s kind of trying to mix those together when possible. And you’ll notice if you tried to go, let’s say if somebody tried to get a ton of views for a year in a row, I did it for a year every single day trying to go viral. It took me seven or eight months to finally do it. And I was like the first five things that got over a million views were not good for my business really. I just started just slapping my logo on there just to try to get some kind of brand positive stuff from it. But I think you learn, that’s why it’s experiments and learning. And most businesses though, should not, I don’t know if you should do that every day for a year to learn, but it’s fun. It’s fun. Have fun with your marketing if nothing else, have fun with your marketing. Yeah.

John (18:02): So let’s jump to the one that a lot of people have trouble expressing a lot of, I’m sure not you Tim, but a lot of SEO folks don’t really talk about ROI necessarily. What should somebody be looking at what KPIs even should they be looking at to really truly measure the performance and their SEO efforts?

Tim (18:25): That’s a big question, John. That’s a great one. I look at the upward swing of keywords and backlinks over the first six months. I think the first six months we’re really talking about these very light, it’s kind of soft stuff. And we have to explain to our clients why that’s good. Why is me ranking for more keywords, sometimes not even high intent. I think that there’s an element though of, I was doing air quotes there, I realize this is audio, so high intent being like they’re likely to purchase. And we’re just talking through that. We’re like therapists for those first six months. And it’s tough because it’s unclear. And PPC gets to just be like, Hey, we’re over here making money. And SEO has to be like, okay, well we’re going to make money someday. And that’s what we struggle with back and forth. It’s not an easy job, but it is easier when you show them deliverables, when you show them specific things that were completed on their behalf.

(19:28): So that’s what we focus on. And then we talk them through why more link, we educate. We have to educate. SEO just inherently has to educate more. So here’s why we’re getting you more backlinks because every backlink is a vote for your business’s website. And the more backlinks we have, the more likely you are to rank high. And with content, the more we’re ranking for one, those are linking opportunities because every single blog post out there people could link to, especially if it’s a good blog post, but it’s also giving topical authority. So we talk about topical authority even with our blue collar trades focused industries we’re talking about you have to cover a topic more in depth, and then obviously the location pages is a little bit easier to explain, and we show them those rankings over time. And then as ROI is really a year to two years, and that’s the hardest part about SEO.

(20:25): We’re talking about long-term plays with compounding benefits. And then if you keep on going, it gets really good. And sometimes that sounds like lies to home service business owners and small businesses in general. So it’s learning enough. I think as a contractor or any kind small business owner that’s trying to hire SEO it, try to get somebody that has a lot of five star reviews, try to work with an agency that actually has track record and case studies, but it’s really hard, dude. It’s a hard thing. How am I supposed to trust you? And it’s still hard, even if you find a reputable one because SEO is hard and some people, this is what most people don’t want to say, but some people shouldn’t even do it. If you’re not going to go hard on SEO, if you’re not going to actually go hard, you shouldn’t do it. It’s really a waste of your time and money. Even if you’re spending a thousand dollars a month, that might be complete waste to your money. What’s worse five KA month and somebody’s actually going hard on your account or one KA month and they’re not doing anything. You can see it’s a scary thing to hire. And I think if you’re not going to go hard, just save your money and spend it on sponsor a t-ball team.

John (21:44): Well, Tim, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. So you want to invite people to where they might connect with you and find out more about your work.

Tim (21:51): Yeah. Should I go too hard there, John? Anyway? No,

John (21:55): At not all. We’re just out of

Tim (21:56): Time.com. Am I still plugged in here? There we go. Yep. Yep,

John (22:00): You’re

Tim (22:00): Good. agency.com, hook agency all over social media hook better leads with the Google specialized team that’s totally focused on roofers, plumbers, and HVAC tech companies. And we really appreciate these industries. We love you guys. Thank you for being cool to us Hook agency.com.

John (22:17): Awesome. Well again, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Navigating Global Relationships

Navigating Global Relationships written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Andy Molinsky, a distinguished professor at Brandeis University’s International Business School. With a Ph.D. in organizational behavior and a master’s in psychology from Harvard University, Andy is renowned for his expertise in cross-cultural communication and global workplace dynamics. His research and writing has been featured in Harvard Business Review, Inc. Magazine, Psychology Today, the Financial Times, the New York Times, and the Wall Street Journal and his latest book Forging Bonds in a Global Workforce: Build Rapport, Camaraderie, and Optimal Performance No Matter the Time Zone.

Key Takeaways

Join Andy Molinsky as he navigates the complexities of global relationships, emphasizing the pivotal role of cultural understanding in fostering effective collaboration across time zones. Through genuine curiosity and respect for cultural differences, individuals can transcend barriers and cultivate authentic connections. Andy highlights the importance of making informed first impressions, navigating small talk nuances, and addressing hidden biases to foster mutual understanding. By integrating cultural awareness into business practices, particularly in distributed teams, organizations can promote inclusivity and harness the power of diverse perspectives for enhanced collaboration and resilience in today’s globalized world.

Questions I ask Andy Molinsky:

[00:51] What are the inherent big challenges in working across time zones?

[02:17] Where does understanding cultural nuances play out in relationship building?

[05:53] How crucial is first impressions in forging bonds?

[10:16] What are some of the actions that teams can do in implementing multiple cultures as an asset that can benefit company culture?

[13:38] What impact do you think the current political trend will have in forging cultural bonds?

[17:18] Where can people connect with you, learn more about your work and pick a copy of your book?

More About Andy Molinsky:

Connect with Andy on LinkedIn
Visit his Website
Grab a copy of Forging Bonds in a Global Workforce: Build Rapport, Camaraderie, and Optimal Performance No Matter the Time Zone

Like this show? Click on over and give us a review on iTunes, please!

Connect with John Jantsch on LinkedIn

This episode of The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Work Better Now

Visit WorkBetterNow.com mention the referral code DTM Podcast and get $150 off for your first 3 months.

Duct Tape Transcript

(00:08): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Andy Molinsky. He’s a professor at Brandeis University’s International Business School with a joint appointment in the Department of Psychology. Andy received his PhD in organizational behavior and a master’s in psychology from Harvard University. His research and writing has been featured in publications such as Harvard Business Review, Inc Magazine and the New York Times. We’re going to talk about his latest book, forging Bonds in a Global Workplace, build Rapport, comradery, and Optimal Performance no matter The Time Zone. So Andy, welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. So let’s start with the big picture. What are the inherent big challenges in working across time zones? Gosh, there are lots. I think that the biggest challenge in terms of building relationships across time zones, I think in terms of that, I think there are two core challenges.

(01:05): The first is understanding differences, cultural differences, and anyone listening has probably read an article, heard something about cultural differences, about how people from this culture tend to do this and people from this other culture tend to do this, and that’s fair. That can cause misperceptions, misunderstandings, and so on. And it’s really important to be aware of those. In our new book we certainly talk about that, but we also talk about the flip side, which is now that you’ve recognized the differences and you’ve avoided the misperceptions, how then can you actually create the connections? Because when in our own culture, the way we build relationships in our own culture isn’t just by maniacally avoiding difference. That’s not how you build a connection. Yeah, that’s interesting though, because in your own culture, the differences maybe are maybe subtle, whereas there complete cultural differences. I remember one time I was with a group and we were in an international audience, and it was a gentleman from Japan that came up and was introduced to the group and he does the whole, you’ve probably seen people talk about the whole ritual with the business card and the person that he presented to just took it and stuck in his pocket and everybody you could see, everybody just was like, what do we do now?

(02:12): So those are kind of the things that I think people tend to think about, but really where do they actually play out in terms of relationship building? Well, I think that by the way, I wouldn’t discount something like that because the importance of something like that is that if someone’s not aware of the cultural difference, they could draw conclusions very quickly about the person that they don’t care about us, that they’re not respectful, they don’t like our culture and so on. That can pretty much short circuit relationship before it starts. But in our research, so we interviewed a hundred people from around the world for this new book, and we found we ultimately found six different kind of dimensions along which relationship building differs. I mean, I could mention a couple. Yeah, give maybe an example or two of a couple of ’em. That’s probably usually that’s more Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(03:01): So one’s power who can have a relationship with whom? So for instance, in certain let’s say hierarchical cultures, like let’s say Korea, you were taught your whole life to respect authority, be deferential, be polite, and so when you’re in a Korean workplace, you’re not going to chit chat about the weather or last night’s baseball game with your boss. It’s just not going to happen. Whereas in the US it’s a much flatter, less hierarchical society. And then if you travel over to Scandinavia, you’re going to get even flatter. So power, power is definitely one thing to be attuned to. Another one is on that, I wanted to interrupt another example. I was in a small middle Eastern country for an event and there were a lot of dignitaries at the event in kind of a preconference. And it was interesting to me as somebody new would come in who was maybe perceived to be a higher up the run diplomatically, people would literally get up and rearrange chairs because that person got to sit closer to the esteemed guest or something.

(04:01): So those are the types of, I mean that’s a definite example, right, of that type of structure. Absolutely. And it’s so important to try to step inside the logic of that other culture if you can, because that then, and to be curious about it, right? I think our instinct often is to think that’s different. For me, that’s weird. But if you can just take a beat and be curious about it, I think that’s key for ask questions about it, be curious. And that actually in and of itself, sometimes cultural differences if you approach them in sort of a curious, interested, respectful way, can themselves be the seeds of a connection that can grow discussing them. I’ll just give you one other example is pacing, pacing speed. So in certain relationships, I’m sorry, in certain cultures you can build relationships very quickly. In Brazil for instance, people will, well, this actually blends two of the dimensions.

(05:00): So this example I’ll talk to you about is blends the notion of pacing but also privacy. And so in Brazil you might talk very quickly about very personal things you might be, whereas in another culture, like say Germany, you’re not as apt to talk about the personal side of things, at least initially. And it can take a very long time in terms of the pacing. And again, there’s nothing bad or good about that inherently, but what’s challenging is that if you’re not aware of it and you don’t respect and understand it and can’t step inside the logic of that culture, you can misperceive it and draw very quick conclusions about the other person. And that can be a relationship killer. So when it comes to somebody who is maybe for the first time interacting, there’s a lot of first impression stuff. I mean that happens no matter what in relationships.

(05:52): So is it important to make that first impression by understanding the cultural differences? Say even in things like you mentioned small talk for example. I mean, should I go into a meeting going, oh, I need to have a little information about this small talk that we’re going to do. So generic advice is always really hard, but I also think it’s really important, so I’m not going to sidestep the question. So what I would say is that I think it’s important to do your homework to try to understand what might be the case in the other culture. And I really emphasize and double click on the might because not everyone’s going to be characteristic of that culture. You’re going to, you might go to Germany, you might go to Korea, you might go anywhere and you might meet someone who spent 20 years in Australia or 10 years in the us.

(06:42): So I think what you want to come in with is kind of like a guess a hypothesis and be ready to have a disconfirm. I think it’s also good to show genuine curiosity and interest. I think that travels genuine curiosity and interest travels. So I think those are two things. In terms of small talk in particular, we actually just published a Harvard Business Review article about small talk. In doing the book, we did a parallel study of small talk across cultures. So key and what we found is that small talk is I would say quasi universal. It’s not universal. There are some cultures, some situations, again, in Korea for instance, Koreans don’t tend to make small talk that frequently and certainly in a power relationship, you’re not going to be making small talk with your boss most likely. Whereas in other cultures, small talk is just part of the culture.

(07:39): Like in Mexico, in Brazil, in Latin America, south America, the US small talk is very common. And then in some other cultures it is common but maybe less common and so on. But the point that I want to make is that when you’re doing business in a global multicultural, cosmopolitan context with people who themselves have had exposure to different countries and cultures, you are operating under a global code sort of. So it’s a little bit different. And now a word from our sponsor, work better now. Work better now provides outstanding talent from Latin America, hand matched to your business with over 40 roles across various industries, including marketing. They’re a reliable partner for consistently finding the perfect fit for your business. Simply tell them what you need and they’ll handle the rest. We have two work better now, professionals on our team, a marketing assistant and a marketing coordinator, and we’ve been blown away by their abilities, responsiveness and professionalism.

(08:39): They’ve really become an essential part of our growing team. And to top it off, each dedicated and full-time work better Now professional is 2350 per month and there are no contracts to schedule a 15 minute consultation with a work better now rep and see how they’ll support your business growth goals, visit work better now.com, mention the referral code DTM podcast, and you’re going to get $150 off for your first three months. That’s work better now.com. And don’t forget that DTM podcast code. So what role do hidden biases play this? All Americans just want to get to the sale. They don’t want to build a relationship. I mean, whatever. Absolutely. I mean, I think a good hack actually is to be aware of the hidden bias that people might have of your culture and to try to disconfirm it, try to act kind of against it in some ways, and then also to be aware of hidden biases that you might have of other cultures.

(09:44): I don’t think it’s a problem to have to, everyone has hidden biases. That’s what psychology research teaches us. We all have them. The question is how aware are we of them and how hard do we work to really to not let them interfere with our relationship building. So increasingly, myself included, I have a small team of about 16, 17, and we are in about eight countries and increasingly we are trying to blend the culture. I mean these are multi-cultures, but we have a culture as a business. So what are some of the actions or maybe even habits or rituals that companies, particularly since we’re not getting together in meeting rooms so much anymore can do to do what I just talked about, take multiple culturals, use it as an asset to actually benefit the company culture. I think it’s really important in the case that you’re talking about with these globally distributed teams to build in time to sort of put relationship building on the agenda.

(10:44): If it’s not on the official agenda, it’s on the mind of the leader. It’s on the mind of the person who’s organizing the meeting that there’s built in time to actually build connections. And those can happen in small little bits at the beginning of a meeting. They also can happen asynchronously, in other words, not in the meeting itself. So I’ll give you an example. I have a very small team and we have a certification course based on my first book, global Dexterity, where we certify people in this idea of global dexterity and we’ve created on Slack, which is a common messaging and work platform, we created a channel in our workspace called, I think it’s called Photos and Fun or something like that. And that very quickly became the most popular channel and people sort of on an asynchronous way were posting pictures. I mean, it took a little courage to get a kickstarted, but after a while it became a great place because then people would refer to that even in our live calls and so on.

(11:45): And so I think on a team you’re talking about, I think that’s really important. I think also showing respect to showing respect to people in another culture of their time zone even, which is that not all the meetings prioritize the American time zone, the east coast time zone let’s say. And that’s a very common default on a team and that can cause a lot of latent frustration and anger. What I think I hear you saying is that a lot of this team building as people may be called it at some point, really the focus is to get deeper engagement than just like, here’s the agenda for the meeting or here’s what we want to accomplish and next month’s rollout or whatever the topic may be. So you’re talking about intentionally going beyond on the surface, and there’s a real reason for that because I think that increases the odds that you’re going to have trust and when when someone does do something that disconfirms your expectations, if someone does deviate, it’s maybe built on a solid foundation of trust and connection.

(12:58): So that doesn’t ruin the relationship. But that might even inspire a conversation. And since people already have some degree of connection, the cultural differences can potentially actually be a source of learning as opposed to a ticking time bomb. And that’s why I think that the relationship building ends up being really critical. I’m probably going to venture outside of your thesis in your book, but I want to go down just a little bit of a different path. There’s no question we are a global economy. People are, what you’re talking about in your book is important for anybody in a career, but we’re also maybe at a point in history where there’s a little bit of nationalization going on as opposed to globalization. What impact do you think that current political, which again, I’m not saying it’s everywhere, everyone, but that current political trend, if you will, is impacting this idea.

(13:54): Say more about what you mean by nationalization. Just a little bit of the, you see, I’ll use the United States for example, but there are certainly some European countries that are going through that right now, A move towards the right that does include a little bit of American made and don’t go outside the borders. A little bit of that. Well, I just heard this morning actually on the radio, and this is of course, I don’t know when people will listen to this, but I just heard this morning that the Netherlands, I didn’t know much about the politics in the Netherlands, but there’s sort of an anti-immigrant bent to the current policies right now in 2024 in March, and A SML, which is one of the biggest companies in Europe and one of the most important companies in the world actually in the semiconductor industry is thinking of leaving the Netherlands. So there you go.

(14:47): I think that the nationalism that you do see, like America First Made in America and so on, I mean, this is just my opinion, but around it runs counter to the history of this country, which is born on immigrants. All of us are immigrants who knew? So every one of us, not every one of us, I suppose the Native Americans and their ancestors, but everyone else are immigrants. And so I think that’s really important to remember. And I think the countries that, this is just my opinion, but I think that the countries who recognize that and recognize that power of diversity recognize the potential benefits to their workforce, I think that’s just going to be a source of strength and it ultimately is a liability, I think economically. No question. That’s my 2 cents anyway. So talk to the millennials or I don’t know, they’re getting old now, the Gen Z that could look at this as, would you look at this as mastering these skills as a career skill that somebody should add to just like programming language?

(15:53): I think so. I think part of the problem is that a lot of the stuff, I have a PhD in organizational behavior and psychology and people will often say, oh, it’s really squishy, and let’s say MBA students, they maybe want to avoid our classes and take the STEM classes and the hardcore quant classes. But what’s funny is that when they come back for executive education, it’s not the STEM classes they’re looking for, it’s the leadership classes and it’s all the people stuff. Because what people realize is that in order to get that first job, you do need those quant skills. You need those hard skills, but to keep your job to succeed at your job to all that stuff, it’s the softer stuff, softer sounds, pejorative. It’s more the subtler stuff. It’s more the interpersonal stuff. And so that’s why I think that stuff is critical.

(16:43): That’s part of my mission. I want to try to help people, and that’s the entire reason that I write books. So I could, as a professor, I’m a tenured professor, I could just continue writing articles in the dusty shelves of academic journals, but that’s not my purpose. I want to try to actually impact people in the world and give people resources like that. So I really actually strongly believe in that. Yeah, it’s funny you call it the softer things. I think it’s really just developing a level of self-awareness is really where it starts if you’re going to be a leader. So Andy, you want, I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. You want to tell people where they might find more about you, your work, and obviously forging bonds? Yeah, sure. So I guess the easiest place is either my website or LinkedIn. I’m pretty active on LinkedIn, so you can find me on LinkedIn, Andy Molinsky, and my website’s andy molinsky.com. So pretty easy. Maybe it’ll be in the show notes and you can find me there and kind of go from there. Awesome. Again, appreciate you taking a few moments, and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

How To Hire a Fractional CMO

How To Hire a Fractional CMO written by Tosin Jerugba read more at Duct Tape Marketing

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I go solo and dive into the trend in the marketing consultancy agency world that is: Fractional Chief Marketing Officers or CMOs.

This episode is a must-listen for business owners, marketing professionals, and consultants seeking a game-changing approach to business growth.

Key Takeaways:

I explore the game-changing concept of Fractional Chief Marketing Officers (CMOs), highlighting its cost-effectiveness compared to traditional hires. Emphasizing the importance of leading with strategy, I challenge the conventional project-based approach to marketing, advocating for a transformative focus on strategic direction. By intentionally evolving the customer journey, businesses can position themselves for sustained growth in 2024 and beyond. Tune in to discover how embracing Fractional CMOs and prioritizing strategy-first methodologies can revolutionize your marketing approach and drive long-term success.

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Connect with John Jantsch on LinkedIn

Duct Tape Transcript

John (00:08): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and I’m doing a solo show. Just me, nobody else in the camera, right? All right, so I’ve been doing a number of shows. We do a lot of education. We license our fractional CMO system to agencies and consultants and strategists all over the world. So I thought it might be interesting. A lot of small business owner listeners here might be interesting to do one that I might call how to hire a fractional CMO. Now, you can go to duct tape marketing.com and you’ll find how we talk about our fractional CMO approach. You don’t really have to call it a fractional CMO, but it really is going to lead with strategy, and that’s really why I call it the fractional CMO approach, because that’s the implication that you’re thinking at the C-suite level about your marketing, that it’s going to be somewhat strategic.

(01:03): Now, what is a fractional CMO? I should start there, right? Fractional chief marketing. Now, you might not have chief anything in your organization, but you do have a marketing function, and wouldn’t it be lovely to have somebody that was their core laser focus? It is a growing trend fractional everything frankly is a growing trend out there in the business world. So why not marketing? Why not bring somebody in who is going to be at the highest level thinking strategically about your marketing today? Boy, there’s so many tactics. There’s so many things to know, so much that’s changing every single day. Having somebody that is focused on that at a very high level, I think has become really essential for any kind of business. Now, why would you consider hiring a fractional CMO? Well, probably the top line benefit is somebody that’s going to bring high level strategic marketing leadership, not just ideas without the full-time cost of an executive.

(02:12): I mean, I know you’re not thinking about probably hiring A CMO, but if you were, you’re going to be looking at north of 200,000, north of 300,000 in some cases. For somebody that’s got that kind of full-time experience, plus they’re not going to write the email copy. They’re going to hire people or they’re going to hire people to do that. So it’s a very expensive proposition, but you can actually get, I believe, an adequate amount of strategic thinking for your business without really spending anywhere near that. Well, literally a fourth maybe of that or a fifth of that. The right person, the right fractional CMO, the right consultant, whatever you want to call it, is going to bring an outside perspective with probably hopefully fresh ideas for your marketing. Now, we’re going to get to how to spot the right one, but hopefully that’s what somebody’s going to bring you.

(03:04): A lot of times people will think, well, I’m an accounting firm or I’m a remodeling contractor. I want somebody that’s got years of experience in my industry. Certainly some knowledge of your industry having worked with past clients can be a very good thing, but too deep or a specific niche only tends to actually bring kind of cookie cutter brings, like, this is what I do for this company in Des Moines. This is what I do for the one in Tokyo. This is what I do. Same exact thing, same exact approach, and some of certainly may work and been informed by years of doing that approach, but also it could be stale. There could be no innovation in it. Having somebody that’s worked in a variety of industries, I think actually brings you a better potential outside perspective and fresh ideas. A lot of times marketing tactics are just kind of a like, how do we make the phone ring?

(03:57): How do we get the email? How do we do this tactic? The right fractional CMO is going to help you. Marketing strategy and business strategy are not always the same thing. In many cases, they certainly support each other. There might be some overlap, but your business strategy might differ greatly from your marketing strategy, but the right person’s going to help you align your overall business goals really with your marketing objectives and hopefully keep you on track and hold you accountable for staying on track. I mean, the right one is not going to just let you say, I know we said last quarter our three priorities were X, but now we’re going to go this direction. Hopefully you actually look to that person to push back a little bit on holding you to what you’ve really the stated objectives are. There is a bit of flexibility in this approach.

(04:46): I mean, you can scale it up. Maybe you have a seasonal business, maybe you have a business that really in the winter really almost practically shuts down. Well, this is an approach that you can scale up and scale down. I don’t necessarily recommend shutting marketing off ever, but you might actually have the need to think strategically or even oversight of what you’re doing might actually come down dramatically. The right person is going to actually drive marketing results and ROI with proven methodologies and best practices, they’re going to be experienced. Hopefully they’ve actually developed some methodologies, some frameworks that they can bring and immediately bring to your business. I already mentioned this idea of holding you accountable. I think that’s a big deal for a lot of businesses. It is really easy, especially if you’re working or making a lot of the decisions on your own.

(05:40): It’s really easy to just wander off course because seems easier to go this way. You get the idea of the week. The one last piece I want to tell you that I think is extremely important because as a business owner, as A CEO, sometimes we get very bottom line oriented. We get very, this is easier for us to do it this way. This is more efficient to do it this way, and we lose sight of what’s best for the customer. Sometimes the right, I mean in a traditional organization, A CMO is going to actually be the advocate for marketing, going to be the advocate for the customer. So what if you brought a little bit of that, even a fractional little bit of that, somebody who’s saying, well, why are we doing it this way? That may be easier for those two people to communicate that way, but it’s not good for the customer.

(06:26): So customer experience is it’s actually how you charge a premium. It’s actually how you keep your customers. It’s how you build momentum. So what if you had somebody that was very focused on the customer, very focused on the customer experience? Alright, let’s get down to, let’s say you’re thinking about doing this. What would you look for in the right? I use the word right, fractional CMO. Well, first and foremost, it should be somebody that’s got some expertise in track record, and by track record I mean of results. Have they helped other people get the results or move in the direction that you want to move? It’s very easy to hang a shingle out and say, I’m a fractional CMO. I mean, maybe the highest level I’ve ever been in an organization was a marketing manager, and there’s nothing wrong with that. You don’t have to have Fortune 500 CMO experience.

(07:13): You’re not a Fortune 500 company. I’m guessing maybe one or two of you are, but I’m guessing that you’re not, and so you don’t necessarily need that level. You actually need somebody who’s worked in a company like yours or worked with organizations that are the size of yours or that comes of yours that are experiencing the growing pains that you’re experiencing, that kind of track record, that kind of deep expertise is what you should be looking for. It doesn’t hurt if they’ve worked with multiple companies. They’ve been in business for a while. But again, some of that just has to do with the track record that they can prove. Do they have case studies, references, really, that are not just saying they’re nice people that really help demonstrate the ability to drive growth? I mean, is there social proof? Do they have their thought leadership published in places that would demonstrate that they do maybe know what they’re talking about?

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(09:14): Now, this offer is limited to new active campaign customers only. So what are you waiting for? Fuel your growth, boost revenue and save precious time by upgrading to active campaign today. Next thing I’d really be looking for is a structured, we call it strategy first, by name, by brand name, but it’s still, it’s an approach, right? Do they have an approach that says, well, before we get into doing X, Y, and Z, we are going to study what our strategic direction is going to be. We’re going to study how we’re going to differentiate. We’re going to study how to narrow our target market focus. I mean, if they’re not coming with that strategy first approach, and they’re really just coming with saying, what do you need? What random acts of marketing do you need and not have a proven process, that’s a red flag. Now, a proven process doesn’t mean cookie cutter.

(10:04): It just means that a process that ticks certain boxes allows you to discover things very quickly and move in maybe new directions very quickly. That proven process that we have, a very repeatable process that we install, and what it’s done is it’s allowed us to get very good at delivering results very quickly, because we’ve done it so many times. Now, this is going to include auditing your current marketing building, hopefully a full strategic plan that you can look out in the future and say, okay, I have an idea now of not just what we’re going to do next quarter, but the next quarter, the next quarter, maybe the entire year. Now, most businesses, at least the size that I work with, small, mid-size businesses, they can’t really afford to hire somebody that’s going to lay a plan on their desk and say, good luck. So the right or maybe the ideal fractional CMO that you might hire, marketing strategist that you might hire, would also come with execution, the ability to then actually execute the plan for as long as you need them to be there.

(11:12): Now, while I stress this idea of a proven process, there obviously needs to be some flexibility. They need to have a wide sort of depth of channels that they might play in or have an expertise or be able to bring partners to the table, expert partners to the table, because every business has, maybe this sounds cynical, 20% that’s unique, 20% that really is a variant because they’re B2B or B2C, or because they’re a local business or a national business, or they’re primarily their customers. Find them online. I mean, those are the variations that need to be taken into play. I mean, there’s no question that somebody who has deep expertise for in e-commerce is probably not the same person that has deep expertise in marketing, say professional services at the local level. So you do want somebody that has certainly the ability to tailor and create a flexible engagement model for you that might involve flexible packages, but also flexible pricing.

(12:15): Not every business has the same needs. Not every business wants to run at the same speed. So certainly the ability to charge appropriately based on revenue, based on growth is something that you want to look for. Make sure that you have the strategy first approach should help you define a very clear scope of work. What’s going to be a deliverable, and most importantly, how we’re going to measure what we’re doing. A lot of, sadly, a lot of marketing folks just throw magic fairy dust out there and print off a couple reports that don’t really indicate that we’re first off even tracking the right things. Somebody who’s going to come in and immediately help you identify the key performance indicators, identify how you’re actually going to extract that data for a lot of businesses, figuring out what their cost to acquire customers, no easy task. So somebody that is very focused on helping you not only develop the process for that, but then track and hold themselves accountable.

(13:17): If you have team, very few people have a full marketing team or anything that you would call a department ahead of marketing even, but a lot of companies have maybe one or two people that are doing marketing functions. Maybe it’s social media or maybe it’s producing a newsletter, or you’ve hired freelancers to write content or to do SEO work or something. So the right fractional CMO can help you do one of two things. Build and manage and integrate with that existing team, help you build additional resources or be able to demonstrate that they can bring their own team. A lot of times, one of the challenges with hiring marketing folks inside of your organization is if marketing’s not your full-time job, which most CEOs or owners it is not, then even managing those assets, those resources, I should say inside your organization can be a real challenge or it can just be a distraction.

(14:16): So if somebody who can actually help you manage your existing team and also manage and help orchestrate all of the implementation is a great asset as well. If any of you who are listening to this have hired the SEO person content person, web person, it’s as much work to manage those multiple resources, certainly as it is to get a lot of the work done. So having somebody who can help you orchestrate that, I probably don’t need to say this, but certainly cultural fit chemistry, you’re going to work very closely. In fact, some people come to view this role as almost a member of the team. It doesn’t necessarily mean that they have to have a seat at the table in every leadership discussion, but a lot of times they will be involved in some of the deeper discussions about where you’re going, about your overall business strategy.

(15:07): They’re going to get into the books. I mean, they should help you understand revenue and profit and expense and your cost to acquire customers. So they’re going to get deep into your business. So chemistry and cultural fit, I mean, one of the best ways probably to measure how the relationship’s going to go is communication style. Understanding their communication style and how it meshes with you, how it aligns with really your values or the values of the organization indeed aren’t important to try to see if you can get, so having that good rapport is, it’s not everything, but it’s certainly a piece that is going to make working together easier. Lastly, I would say somebody who is not talking about quick wins are important. Quick wins are nice, but long-term results oriented mindset is really what you’re after. Somebody who understands where you are today, but also understands where you want to go, where you want to be, and can help guide you that as your marketing matures, so are they going to not only focus on long-term success, but then start thinking in terms of building infrastructure around marketing processes, SOPs, things that will actually scale as you start to scale the business and viewing it almost as a partnership.

(16:27): I know that’s kind of cliche, but to talk about, a lot of people are like, we’re partners with you, but that’s how you want to view their relationship and you hope that they do as well. Alright? There’s no question that marketing leadership, it can actually become one of your greatest competitive advantages if you can figure out how to do this role, right? The model itself allows you to get real business systems for a fraction of the cost. It’s also, I hate to be on a negative, but it’s also if the relationship doesn’t work out, the fractional model is an easy one to fire as opposed to hiring somebody. So again, if any of this made sense to you, if you’re thinking about this, it doesn’t matter what you call it. You don’t have to call it a fractional CMO if you don’t want to call it that, but if you believe that your business would benefit from a strategy first approach, there’s tons of information on our website about it, you can actually find, we license this methodology of ours to other consultants around the world, other agencies around the world.

(17:31): So you could find somebody there, or we’d love to talk to you about how the fractional CMO plus implementation model might work for your business. It’s just duct tape marketing.com. That’s D-U-C-T-A-P-E marketing.com. Love to hear your feedback always on this. It’s just john@ducttapemarketing.com, and if you’re a regular podcast listener, heck, if this is the first time you’ve listened to the podcast, we love reviews on whatever platform you listen to, the Spotifys, the apples out there of the world gives us a review. Alright? That’s all. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.