nadosi.com

John Jantsch (00:00.686)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is Jon Jantsch and I think I’m kind of the guest today because my host today is Sarah Ney, CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and she’s gonna, we’re just gonna have a conversation about some of the things going on in the world of marketing. I’ve said before, I think 2025 is going to be a year to remember in terms of change. I’ll say that next year too, I bet.

But I think the pace of change that I think we’re seeing right now, just in the first couple of weeks of January, it’s kind of flooring me. And I think it’s going to be tough to keep up. So strap in, hang on, and here we go, sir.

Sara Nay (00:40.285)

And we were just having a discussion with some of our team about how we’re always, you know, looked at it, staying in top of marketing trends. And that’s been the position of duct tape marketing for a while. And right now we feel like we’re sprinting more than we have before with all the advancements. And that’s a lot of what we’re going to talk about today. So thanks for letting me steal the host seat. I want to start with a question. Sure.

John Jantsch (00:46.574)

You

John Jantsch (00:58.368)

Yeah. Well, I can, throw in a joke, a lame joke. So R and D now stands for run and dash.

Sara Nay (01:03.805)

I it. Well, I’m going to start with a question. You’ve been in the game, the marketing game for quite some time now. So you were involved when websites, everyone started building websites and getting online. And also when social media became a thing and everyone was talking about how that’s going to change the whole entire industry. And so right now, obviously we’re going through a lot of conversation and discussion and excitement around AI and everything that’s evolving there. So I’m curious, how does right now feel the same?

than some of those different excitement phases that have happened or developments that have happened over the years. And also on the other end, how does it feel a bit different this time or does it feel different?

John Jantsch (01:41.964)

Yeah. So, I mean, in some ways it feels if there’s a same, it’s fundamentally what we’re here to do as marketers. I don’t think it’ll ever change. And so a lot of the changes that came along were like, wait, we have a new way to interact with customers. We have a new platform to be found. Customers, you know, have a different way to buy from us. So those were, those were kind of in a lot of ways, incremental changes, significant ones for a lot of folks.

In terms of the change with what AI is bringing, I think it’s much more foundational. It certainly feels very different. And I think partly because it impacts so many areas of a business. A lot of the website was kind of a marketing thing, whereas AI is impacting finance, it’s impacting customer service, it’s impacting certainly all the marketing functions. And ultimately it’s impacting consumers and what they’re able to do greatly.

I just feel like this is a, you know, I’ve heard some people say this, it might be kind of cliche, but you know, this is almost like, this is almost like, you know, the industrial revolution, like all these machines, you know, came along that automated, you know, manual labor that, you know, that, that really displaced a lot of jobs and started creating the, you know, the knowledge economy. And I think this is a bit more like that. This is going to fundamentally shift how we work.

Sara Nay (03:04.059)

Yeah, absolutely. And the school system, a lot of it was built from that era as well. And so I’ve heard a lot of conversation about, you know, potentially AI adjusting how we actually teach our children in school as well. Who needs it? It’s done for you. A lot of what you’ve spoken about over the years is strategy before tactics. And now a lot of people are talking about strategy before technology. And so I’m just curious your take on there’s, there’s a lot of shiny objects in AI.

John Jantsch (03:08.546)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:14.722)

Yeah, no more math, right? Who needs math? Who needs learned math, right?

John Jantsch (03:24.557)

Yes.

John Jantsch (03:31.278)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (03:31.867)

There’s a lot of, every time I check my email, there’s 10 different tools that are being recommended for me that relate to AI. And so I think a lot of people are getting sucked into just doing things and figuring out how it works, but not necessarily taking a step back and saying, how could this apply to my business? How could I approach this strategically? So what would your advice be there for someone that needs to get out of the shiny object syndrome and focus on the strategy behind it?

John Jantsch (03:54.498)

Well, I think there’s a real danger in not. In fact, think strategy is more important. And here’s why. It’s like taking somebody who used to ride a bike. You know, got a helmet, you’re riding the bike, you’re probably okay if you crash unless you’re like on a mountain or something, right? But now we’re going to put somebody in the seat of a Lamborghini without a seatbelt, without a helmet. We’re going to say, drive really fast. And if they don’t…

If they’re on the right road, if they don’t have the right map, if they don’t have the right skills, you know, they’re just going to, they’re just going to die faster. I know that’s sort of dramatic, but I think that that’s what’s going to happen from a marketing state, from a business. If your strategy is wrong, if your messaging is wrong, if your product market fit is wrong, you’re just going to fail faster now. So you might succeed faster as well.

Sara Nay (04:29.233)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (04:43.648)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (04:46.606)

But if you don’t have the right strategy in place, it’s going to say, here’s the path we’re going to take. There’s a real danger in just having a whole lot of technology that’s going to get you there faster.

Sara Nay (04:57.649)

Yeah, absolutely. What about the mindset shift too? Cause there definitely are different sides of things. People are like AI is the future, stuff’s changing quickly. This is the best thing ever. But there’s also the other side of things where people are like, I’m terrified as where we’re going, we’re going to lose all these jobs. And so what about adopting the right mindset to be able to advance with these different tools?

John Jantsch (05:04.824)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:10.424)

Sure. Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:16.13)

Well, I think there’s legitimate fear. There are a lot of jobs that are going to be displaced, a lot of positions, a lot of skills that are not going to be that important. mean, when you think about it, I now have the world’s smartest human beings, the world’s greatest IQ at my disposal. All of sudden being smarter is not going to be an advantage necessarily because we can tap that computing power.

so the mindset shifts, I think, I think it’s a two level, certainly at the leadership level, you have to embrace it. You have to train your folks. You have to get them ready. And I think at the manager, the skilled, you know, person working in an organization, you know, they have to realize that their job is probably not, any more about doing technical things. it is going to be about managing the path that those technical things are being done on. So.

You know, that might not be a fit for everybody who really likes to get in there and crunch the numbers and analyze the data. You know, instead of really looking at like, I need to be really good at reading actuary tables, for example, you actually need to be really good at analyzing this amazing output that you’re going to get from these tools and managing and orchestrating the output that you get and making sense of it and contextualizing it. And that’s probably a different skill set.

You know, before we got on the call, I was, and I give Lisa Adams full credit for this. her up on LinkedIn. If you want to find out some somebody who’s really doing some great things in AI. But she, she said this statement. I think we’ve been saying it for a long time. Strategy is going to be more important. The human element is going to be more important, but she, just nails it with this. As AI democratizes IQ, EQ is going to become more important.

Some people call them soft skills, but emotional quotient. The ability to bring emotion, the ability to bring reality into who you’re trying to market you, to understand your customers, to understand the context in which your customers are trying to solve their problems. Those are things that humans with high EQ are very, very good at.

John Jantsch (07:33.058)

you can take it farther. mean, AI is democratizing reach. So community is going to be more important. Like as we can like spam more people, you know, communicating is going to be more important as AI just makes it so easy for anybody who’s never written two words, or put two sentences together, can now create, you know, theoretically create long form content, you know, having that personal connection with your clients is going to become more important. So those are all things that

If you were going to go read a book or take a course on EQ, those are the kinds of things, listening, empathy are the kinds of things that they would talk about. And I think those are going to be the things that those are going to be the skills that are going to be valued in the job market moving forward.

Sara Nay (08:19.611)

Yeah, absolutely. And so we’ve talked about this a lot, you and I too, it’s right now it’s we’re not thinking about AI is replacing jobs. It’s helping us do different or better or higher level work. And so think that also sums up what you were saying there. We’re not like firing our whole team and letting them go because we’re bringing a bunch of AI. but we are helping them all elevate and us ourselves elevate, you know, to, focus on the strategic thinking and the creativity and the collaboration and the EQ elements that you talked about there as well.

John Jantsch (08:48.844)

Yeah, and sadly, there will be people that are looking at that way. Look, I can have all these agents and I don’t have to have any people. I saw somebody post on LinkedIn, the $3 billion company with only three employees. you know, those get headlines, those get clicks. But, you know, frankly, it is going to displace the positions or the functions inside of organizations. you know, certainly people with high EQ, I think, will

who can adapt to kind of a new way to work, I think will thrive. And there will be some, you know, just like everything. I mean, when the automobile came along, you know, when the factories came along, mean, different jobs got displaced when the computer came along, you know, different jobs got displaced. And, you know, the, the, it ultimately, you know, new jobs were created, new education was created, new training was created for people to, you know, to change the skills. But that’s

Sara Nay (09:20.669)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (09:44.482)

You know, it’s never great for somebody that, you know, all their life has done a certain type of job and now they’re being told, you have to, you have to work differently than you have your whole life. But you know, that that’s come really with, with even incremental changes, you know, over time in the workplace.

Sara Nay (09:53.776)

No.

Sara Nay (10:00.197)

Yeah, I think it’s really important. I read something the other day about the mind shift with AI and what you were talking about there is like, you really have to have a growth mindset with this thing. You have to be eager to learn and expand and grow as a human to be able to get the full capabilities of AI. And I think that’s a good, good way to think about it as well.

John Jantsch (10:07.918)

Totally. Totally.

John Jantsch (10:16.504)

Yeah. And I’ll acknowledge it’s exhausting. but you, you know, I think particularly at the speed, you know, that we’re moving right now, but you’re absolutely right. You have to have that gross mindset and, and it’s tough because I mean, it means you have to do things that are not comfortable. Maybe, you know, there, there’s a lot of people that you mentioned this idea that AI seems really frightening and kind of techie. And so there’s just.

Sara Nay (10:18.993)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:43.468)

You know, some folks that that’s, know, that’s not their comfort zone, but it’s a matter of, don’t mean this in a really negative sounding way, but, I don’t think we have much choice.

Sara Nay (10:55.079)

Yeah.

Another area I want to dive into a bit more is you mentioned the human element a little bit more and making personal connections with your clients. And so with the evolution of AI right now, we’re seeing people are producing more content. There’s chat bots online, you’re, you know, you’re getting cold outreach, direct outreach from AI tools. And so there’s a lot of stuff that feels very automated. LinkedIn comments is another example where it just feels very automated. So how can companies stand out from that noise by doing things such as, you know, building trust, building brand actually

John Jantsch (11:07.491)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:25.635)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (11:26.675)

connecting with people. So what are some examples to stand out from the noise?

John Jantsch (11:30.894)

Well, I think for a lot of marketers, particularly, you have to really understand your brand voice. mean, you have to have a brand voice. mean, that’s one of your differentiators. Duct tape marketing is quite often seen by people as very practical, down to earth, plain spoken. And that’s a brand voice that we’ve spent a lot of time developing. And shame on us if we use some of the automation tools to not sound like us.

so, so I think that’s really, you know, I feel like we’re very empathetic. think we’re very caring about what we do, and care about the people that we serve. and that comes out, I think in the content that we produce and, you know, it is really tempting to say, look, I can do a, I can automate somebody having a hundred LinkedIn comments, you know, spread all over the place. Well, first off, it probably is counter.

to what you’re trying to do because you know, you and I have laughed about it. You see these comments on your LinkedIn posts and it’s clearly, you know, that was just AI generated and, and, you know, it really actually kind of makes you want to ban that person, you know? And so it’s certainly not doing any value for them. But I think what it just means is it’ll get easier to spot something that is both AI generated and something that is actually authentically generated.

I think you’ll get, I think the gap between those two is going to get even larger. And so spending the time to say, Hey, here’s who I really am. And this is how I talk. And maybe I don’t use punctuation here, you know, whatever, whatever it is, that is your brand voice. I think just understand it and stay true to it. And I know there are a lot of people talking about, you can train AI to do that. but I can spot it.

Sara Nay (13:18.619)

Yeah. think one of the easiest ways to spot an actual human producing content for me versus AI, one of the best ways I can see is storytelling. If someone’s talking about their actual personal experiences, I think that’s an easy way to spot. do you think there’s going to be an increased importance of storytelling as a brand and also humans representing the brand as well?

John Jantsch (13:27.458)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (13:39.148)

Yeah. Yeah. I think storytelling has actually been, it’s been hot for 10 years. know, I mean that idea in marketing, but I think you’re right. It’s now going to be a key differentiator. mean, AI can’t make up that case story or that example of, know, what happened, you know, on the day at work in your actual office can’t be made up. And so, you know, I think that that’s a lot of ways going to be a huge differentiator.

Sara Nay (14:04.081)

Yeah, absolutely. Do you think there’s a specific area of marketing that’s being shaken up the most right now? So SEO, paid, any channels that are being shaken up the most right now?

John Jantsch (14:12.653)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:16.194)

Well, I think the content one was the first one that of course, you know, when people woke up and went, wait, I hate writing content. You mean I can just put this in this thing and it’ll spit out 700 words? I mean, the real temptation, you know, was first there because it seemed so easy. It seemed, you know, too good to be true, right? And so people certainly jumped in there. So it, now a lot of people are starting to realize the backlash of that and the fallacy of, you know, of that just being able to produce content. So that was the first area though that clearly got disrupted.

I would say the next one is clearly going to be coming in the creative space, the design, the video, the editing. mean, those are things that, again, I don’t think there’s too many people out there going to Dali and producing images for everything, but certainly it’s not far away and they’re not only having video and audio editing tools that work quite well, they’re going to have video and audio creation.

tools that are going to work, you know, to the, to the level where you could actually put in a script and it will actually create an entire video for you. So I think there’ll be some disruption there. Again, I think that’s one of those things that now all of a sudden there’s the, know, there’s a lot of things that AI tools can do. And, you know, I think the differentiator is going to be somebody looking at it and saying, you know, with our brand voice in mind, with our brand promise in mind.

what should it do? And so, you know, there are things, you know, I had somebody that wanted to have an AI bot interview me for a podcast, you know, for, for example, I was like, well, first off, I wasn’t interested, but secondly, I was like, why would anybody, you know, think that was a good idea? But, you know, there are a lot of things that people do because they look at it they go, look, if we connect this together and this connect and people get really excited about that.

Sara Nay (16:01.852)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:10.382)

But I think we have to stay real and say, okay, from a practical sense, what would be best experience for our clients?

Sara Nay (16:17.723)

Yeah, absolutely. And that’s why we’ve been really focused on recently in our conversations is what’s a good use case. Like, why are we exploring this? How can we actually make a difference with that? And I think that’s an important thing to keep in mind. Another area that I’ve heard you talk about a little bit is hyper personalization in terms of communication. And so it’s not going to be just about mass content to everyone that follows you. Like we have an opportunity to get a lot more focused in what we’re saying to specific people. So I would love to just hear your, your insights and what do you think the opportunity there is for 2025?

John Jantsch (16:47.352)

Well, for a lot of smaller businesses, the opportunity, mean, personalization has been there. Let’s face it, since email service providers came along and you could say, John, inside an email, that’s a level of personalization that’s been there forever. But what AI does is gives us easier access to a lot of data. So for instance, not only do I know your first name,

I know your LinkedIn profile and I know the last five things you’ve posted about. And that can actually be brought into a data set, you know, keeping all privacy, you know, things in mind that can be brought into a data set that would allow me to say, Hey, here are four products we sell. You talked about this. I’m going to send you an email on Tuesday morning at seven o’clock, because that’s when you post all the time. And I know you’re around on your computer. So I’m going to send you that email and I’m going to talk about.

not only a certain product that we have that I think would be a fit for you, but the problem that you uniquely identified that it solves for you. So that’s the promise of it. Now, the challenge of course is, you know, a lot of small businesses don’t have access to that data. A lot of larger organizations certainly are way ahead in that game. but

Segmenting and personalizing is something that, you know, a lot of the tool sets are going to start making easier in the very near future. And I think it’s, you know, a lot of what we have to do as marketers is informed by behavior that other companies are doing, that people get used to. And so when people start expecting that you’re going to understand, you know, what they need, or you’re going to understand it.

They already bought that product. They’re going to be less tolerant about, you know, your kind of one size fits all kind of promotion.

Sara Nay (18:41.275)

Yeah. On the sales side of things, I’m using a tool right now to prepare for sales calls where it basically brings in someone’s disc profile based on their LinkedIn. And it helps me understand how to sell to that unique individual, how to get their attention. Should I stay very high level or should I get down into the weeds? And so that’s just an example of more personalized sales. I know you were talking a lot about marketing, but marketing and sales go together. So

John Jantsch (18:57.485)

Right.

John Jantsch (19:05.582)

Yeah. I, it’s funny that I use that same tool. Of course, I just did a Google meet with somebody and it actually popped up in the Google meet and said, here’s how to talk with that person. So it was pretty, pretty cool. Yeah. I suspect it does in zoom. I didn’t, I’ve never done it, but I, that was the first time I’d seen it.

Sara Nay (19:16.414)

well.

Sara Nay (19:23.724)

Well, we’re at the top of our time about so any final thoughts just on the topic of 2025, what people should be focusing on right now in marketing.

John Jantsch (19:31.436)

Well, you said probably the one that’s the biggest, know, is, is continue to evolve. I mean, this is not going to stop. You’re not going to catch up necessarily. So continue, you know, to grow, continue to commit to growth. And I don’t think you have to, I don’t think you have to throw your hands up and say, I have to learn everything about this. Follow a couple of good people, focus on one new tool or one new use case, you know, a month.

or something so that you’ll start understanding it and start making it a priority for your teams to start, to continue to grow, to continue to learn these things so that you can actually explore them together and really start to get that mindset cemented about how we have to work with this new set of tools and technology that we’re all going to have available, whether we like it or not.

Sara Nay (20:24.893)

And I would add one more to I’ve learned a lot from just connecting and masterminding with other people that are doing really interesting things with AI and so I would also encourage you on top of what John just shared to form a mini mastermind group with some peers and share use cases and how you’re both all exploring the different tools as well because I think you can just learn a lot from others because we’re all just figuring it out right now.

John Jantsch (20:32.622)

100%.

John Jantsch (20:46.668)

We ought to do that. Why don’t we create a membership type of program where you can join and we’ll give you a use case once a month and kind of collaborate as a group in a live training or something. If that sounds interesting to you, send me an email, because that’s something we might actually work on. think that would be a really cool thing. So it’s just John at Duct Tape Marketing if you think that that idea of a collaboration membership.

around AI so you can learn in real time. Like there’s no way to create a course on AI because it’s changing so fast, but kind of having a monthly accountability group where you’re working on a use case might actually be kind of cool. So let’s do that, sir.

Sara Nay (21:26.609)

Let’s do it. heard it here first. We’ll keep it as practical as possible. So thanks, John.

John Jantsch (21:28.206)

All right. Awesome. Well, thank you all for tuning in to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. And this is where I guess I’m supposed to say, hopefully we’ll see you one of these days out there on the road.

Sara Nay (21:42.109)

Thanks everyone.

The Framework That Transformed My Business (And Can Transform Yours Too)

The Framework That Transformed My Business (And Can Transform Yours Too) written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Nick Sonnenberg

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Nick Sonnenberg, founder of Leverage, a leading operational efficiency consultancy, and author of the bestselling book Come Up for Air. Nick is an expert in business efficiency, team productivity, and workplace systems. His CPR framework has transformed the way businesses operate by addressing common bottlenecks in communication, planning, and resources.

During our conversation, Nick shared his personal journey of overcoming chaos in his business, where rapid growth led to inefficiency and burnout. He explained how the CPR framework—focusing on Communication, Planning, and Resources—helps organizations streamline workflows, improve team collaboration, and maximize time management. By implementing this approach, businesses can achieve operational efficiency, reduce stress, and create sustainable systems that support long-term success.

Nick Sonnenberg’s CPR framework is a game-changer for business owners looking to improve team productivity, streamline workflows, and create a stress-free operational environment. Whether you’re an overwhelmed entrepreneur or a growing organization, adopting this framework can transform how you work and set you up for long-term success.

Key Takeaways:

The CPR Framework
- Communication: Streamline internal communication by consolidating tools and reducing unnecessary back-and-forth. For example, task-related discussions should live in project management tools, not Slack or email.
- Planning: Centralize task and project management in tools like Asana or Monday.com. This ensures everyone knows what needs to be done, by whom, and when.
- Resources: Create a knowledge base or wiki where team members can self-serve answers to routine questions, reducing disruptions and improving efficiency.
Prioritize Return on Time (ROT)
- Focus on tasks that yield the highest time savings for the least investment. This approach ensures that efforts are directed toward impactful improvements in business workflows and team productivity.
Systemize Early to Scale Effectively
- Even solopreneurs should start implementing systems early to prepare for growth. Small, incremental changes to streamline processes can prevent chaos as the business scales.
The Importance of Documentation
- Use tools like Loom to record processes and create step-by-step guides. Documenting workflows not only helps current employees but also reduces risks when onboarding new team members or transitioning roles.
Long-Term vs. Short-Term Thinking
- Businesses focused on long-term efficiency see greater success than those chasing quick wins. Investing in operational efficiency and business systems now creates a stress-free and scalable environment in the future.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing Nick Sonnenberg
[00:44] How Nick Stopped Drowning in Work
[06:25] Prioritizing Where to Start
[07:46] Focusing on What Matters
[10:08] Investing in Implementing Change
[11:34] Solving Operational Efficiency Holistically
[12:48] Best Practices of CPR (Communication, Planning, and Resources)
[16:24] What Size Business is CPR for?
[18:14] Find Out More About Nick and His Work

More About Duncan Wardle:

Check out Nick Sonnenberg’s Website
Connect with Nick Sonnenberg on LinkedIn
Read Come Up for Air: How Teams Can Leverage Systems and Tools to Stop Drowning in Work by Nick Sonnenberg

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Want to elevate your marketing game? AdCritter pairs Connected TV ads with precise digital retargeting to drive real results. Discover how their full-funnel strategy can help your business grow smarter. Let them know Duct Tape Marketing sent you, and you’ll get a dollar-for-dollar match on your first campaign! Learn more at adcritter.com.

Why Your Focus Groups Are Failing and What to Do Instead

Why Your Focus Groups Are Failing and What to Do Instead written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Jacqueline Lieberman

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Jacqueline Lieberman, founder of Brand Crudo and creator of the Anti-Focus Group method. Jacqueline is a brand strategist who works with global giants like Google, Unilever, and Lexus to uncover raw truths and develop innovative brand strategies.

Jacqueline shared how traditional focus groups often fail to provide actionable customer insights and why a new approach is essential for B2B marketing success. She introduced the concept of the Anti-Focus Group, a unique method that replaces sterile conference rooms with VIP dinners to unlock authentic customer feedback, emotional triggers, and deeper connections. This revolutionary approach delivers valuable insights that drive impactful brand messaging, marketing solutions, and business strategies.

Jacqueline Lieberman’s Anti-Focus Group revolutionizes the way brands approach customer insights, brand strategy, and marketing innovation. By moving beyond traditional focus groups and leveraging intimate, VIP settings, businesses can unlock deeper emotional triggers, craft more impactful messaging, and elevate their B2B marketing efforts. If you’re ready to transform your approach to customer research and brand development, the Anti-Focus Group method offers a fresh, effective solution.

Key Takeaways:

Why Traditional Focus Groups Fail
Traditional focus groups often take place in uninspiring environments, like conference rooms or Zoom panels, where participants feel detached or distracted. These settings fail to uncover the emotional triggers and raw truths needed for meaningful brand strategy.
The Power of Anti-Focus Groups
Jacqueline’s Anti-Focus Group method uses curated VIP dinners to create a comfortable, engaging atmosphere. By fostering authentic conversations, this approach uncovers actionable customer insights and builds deeper connections.
Emotional Triggers and Customer Feedback
Emotional triggers and customer mindsets are critical to effective marketing. The Anti-Focus Group method helps brands identify these elements, enabling them to craft brand messaging that resonates deeply with their target audience.
B2B Marketing Innovation
In B2B settings, understanding executive feedback is key. The Anti-Focus Group method helps businesses gather these insights while also enhancing brand perception through high-quality, exclusive experiences.
Rapid and Actionable Insights
Unlike traditional marketing research methods, Anti-Focus Groups provide a quick turnaround. Insights are delivered within 10 days, allowing brands to act swiftly and confidently on new strategies.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing Jacqueline Lieberman
[01:10] Anti-Focus Group Dinners: A New Approach to B2B Research
[05:17] Leveraging Dinner Events for Authentic Customer Feedback
[09:41] Impact of VIP Dinners
[12:41] Client Feedback of Anti-Focus Group Dinners
[14:38] Logistics and Strategy for B2B Client
[16:06] Scaling the Impact of Group Dinners

More About Jacqueline Lieberman:

Check out Jacqueline Lieberman’s Website
Connect with Jacqueline Lieberman on LinkedIn

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.282)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Jacqueline Lieberman. She’s former chief strategy officer at Story Worldwide, a master of narrative-based marketing, blending human insights with brand truths for giants like Unilever, Google, and Lexus. She’s now the founder of brand Crudo, which she created the DNA method to help &A executives and CMOs differentiate their brands by leveraging raw

truths that can’t be copied. Frustrated by the stale research methods, she also launched the Anti-Focus Group, exclusive dinners that deliver actionable insights from hard to reach audiences while doubling as premium brand experiences. So Jacqueline, welcome to the show.

Jacqueline Lieberman (00:49.624)

Thank you, john. feel like that’s the podcast. did such a great job with the intro. We’re done.

John Jantsch (00:52.452)

Well, I just read what you gave me to tell you the truth. So I take no credit credit for other than being able to read, which Mrs. Morrison in first grade made sure of.

Jacqueline Lieberman (00:57.262)

you

Jacqueline Lieberman (01:03.16)

There we go.

John Jantsch (01:04.228)

All right, so let’s define like what’s an anti-focus group dinner look like.

Jacqueline Lieberman (01:09.422)

sure. Yeah, well, let’s see, as the name suggests, it is the opposite of what a traditional focus group is. And because I am a believer that setting really matters. So when you think about traditional focus groups, they basically take two paths. The traditional route is that you think of this, you know, conference room, a stale conference room with a

what feels like this double glass, you know, one sided mirror that’s there that makes you feel like you’re in like an FBI interrogation room, you know, being detained for some reason. And then you have a moderator who nine times out of 10 really just looked at, you know, what they’re supposed to be talking about. And they don’t really have a lot of skin in the game as to like what to do with the information. So there’s that.

And then the, you know, with the advent of zoom and online panels. So now a lot of really where it’s gone is that you’re looking at a screen with a bunch of boxes that people are doing all day long anyway. And of course people are multitasking while they’re supposedly answering your questions and paying attention. So that’s made the whole feedback loop even worse in my opinion, you know? So yeah.

John Jantsch (02:31.564)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, no, I was just going to say, so, you’ve talked about all the limitations of those, but I mean, are, the real limitation that we’re not getting very much that’s actionable out of these? mean, is that why it’s broken?

Jacqueline Lieberman (02:33.998)

And so what I go ahead and you go.

Jacqueline Lieberman (02:51.254)

Yeah, I mean, so being 30 years on the receiving end of those reports, and that number is a real number three, zero. And, and I because I’m the one that’s supposed to do something with it as a brand strategist. This is supposed to be a gold mine of information by which I’m supposed to use as a foundation for brand strategy, audience messaging. And, you know, because of that,

John Jantsch (02:59.95)

Yeah.

Jacqueline Lieberman (03:21.068)

What I end up getting is I dig through a hundred pages of a poorly designed PowerPoint and the crux of it is really about it tells you exactly what was said in the room, which is helpful, but it doesn’t tell you why it was said. It doesn’t tell you really what the motivations are behind what some of the feedback was. And really what the anti-focus group dinners are about is

They’re designed to uncover key mindset and emotional triggers, right? So those are really the two foundational elements of marketing mindset and emotion. So that’s what this dinner setting is meant to unlock because immediately the professional armor comes off. As soon as they walk in the room, they’re like, this is like the best, this is the best part of my day right now. They’re treated like VIPs from the second they walk in.

And they’re sitting down to an amazing meal in an amazing setting. And I’m gently moderating the conversation. I’m not peppering them with a million questions, but it’s new course, new question, or new course, new sets of questions. And we talk about things like, how do you build trust with people? Who do you love to collaborate with and why?

Is there anything in your career that you haven’t done yet that you really want to do? Just so we can understand the more as people and not as targets is really what the feedback is.

John Jantsch (04:59.62)

So as I listen to those, it’s almost more like networking questions than research questions, right? It’s something you might typically want to uncover in a healthy networking conversation. But let’s back up a little bit. So I’m assuming, or maybe I’m wrong, but are these mostly, if not exclusively, B2B settings? OK. OK.

Jacqueline Lieberman (05:10.712)

Sure.

Jacqueline Lieberman (05:17.794)

Yeah, they seem to work for b2b, you know, so, you know, it’s not about, you know, let’s look at the latest box of Cheerios and determine what the creative is. It’s, it’s really more about business to business products and services.

John Jantsch (05:26.733)

Yeah, okay.

John Jantsch (05:34.116)

So I’m a customer or maybe a targeted customer. get invited to this. Am I told I’m going to dinner and it’s going to be a research? do you sometimes get a little, because it’s unique, do you sometimes get a little, wait a minute, what?

Jacqueline Lieberman (05:42.402)

Yes.

Jacqueline Lieberman (05:48.45)

Well, we get mostly the only wait a minute what is when we do disclose that they will be wearing microphones, because this is research, you know, so this is, you know, when I call it, it’s the most productive dinner you’ll ever sponsor all year, you know, it’s like you have b2b dinners all the time and networking, right and golf outings and all of this stuff. But but when people walk in,

John Jantsch (05:56.676)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:04.536)

Yeah, yeah.

Right.

Jacqueline Lieberman (06:14.574)

They we let them know in the invitation before they even respond that they will be mic’d up that this is for research and just like research in a focus group they do get compensated for their time. So we want them to feel that their time spent was immensely valuable in every way.

John Jantsch (06:36.42)

So I’m sure people forget about the microphones pretty quickly in, I’m imagining like, okay, I can’t burp, right? So, all right, so then you get, I assume the microphone is because you’re recording, right? So you get all of this recordings. How do you make sense out of them that in a way that you can actually address the objectives of the sponsor?

Jacqueline Lieberman (06:43.502)

We haven’t run into that.

Jacqueline Lieberman (07:02.464)

Yes. Well, before I answer that directly, I will address the so the mindset questions that I was saying before, we do have dinners where it is a mix, it really depends on the goal of the dinner. some goals of the dinner are to really understand their ideal customer way better in terms of their mindset and emotional triggers. So that could be the beginning of the dinner, the second half of the dinner could be very much of a brass tacks look,

John Jantsch (07:10.627)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (07:17.188)

Hmm.

Jacqueline Lieberman (07:30.246)

we would like you to respond to this messaging or this concept board. And I hand it I hand it out over dinner and say, you know, once we’re done, or we’re looking at dessert, and we say, Okay, what do you think about this particular concept or this tagline? So we can get to brass tacks and cover that for sure. But we recommend that it’s definitely going to be a balance of both mindset as well as the brass tacks to make it really worth the sponsoring companies while

John Jantsch (07:33.86)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:00.258)

You know, I’ve always contended for years that, you know, one of the best things a company can do is bring their customers together so that they can, hey, you know, I’ve had this problem. They solved that problem for me too. So there’s networking, there’s referrals that go on. It’s people feel like champions now because you’ve treated them to dinner. Is there a little bit of a combination of, hey, we’re like treating you special and getting research from you?

Jacqueline Lieberman (08:07.266)

Yeah.

Jacqueline Lieberman (08:27.086)

for sure. Yeah, for sure. mean, and making them feel valued is part of where the authentic feedback comes in, you know, because when, you know, like I said, when that armor kind of comes down immediately, when you make this comfortable setting and you’re breaking bread with people and introducing yourself and all of a sudden, you’ll get a very different piece of feedback if you ask the same question in a zoom panel or in a conference room.

know, you just do and and that’s the the beauty of it. And and with your question before about you know, how do I weed through three hours of transcript but you know, I’ve been interviewing stakeholders my entire career, it’s part of my process for brand strategy, right? So so before I even, you know, put pen to paper on a brand foundation work, I

ask and say give me the 1015 people at your company who I should be talking to. So so I’ve been doing you know, trying to pull out the nuggets of what people say, you know, my whole career and this is really no different.

John Jantsch (09:37.944)

Yeah. Well, and I will say maybe you’ll disagree with it, but this idea, but, your, strategist brain creates the questions in the conversation, but I do think some of the new tools that we have AI tools, are very good at analysis if given the right data, right? Yeah.

Jacqueline Lieberman (09:50.446)

Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline Lieberman (09:54.938)

sure. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it helps with calling down transcriptions and you know, maybe generating some themes but you know, I’m I’m the only one that has my client in the back of my brain to understand really what they’re looking for. So, that’s what I’m looking at when I look through those raw transcripts.

John Jantsch (10:07.82)

Yeah, that’s right.

John Jantsch (10:14.98)

So do you have an example maybe of a campaign or maybe you can’t name names but maybe talk a little bit about the impact of one of these dinners?

Jacqueline Lieberman (10:24.216)

Sure, yeah, I can’t name names or disclose, but we’ve had dinners where it was first, it’s like, okay, we need to really know our customers better because the current personas that we have just tell me the pain points of why they hate my technology, for instance. And I already knew that. can we really understand who they are as people? So that was dinner number one. Then we went back to work.

and said, okay, so this is the feedback from dinner number one, we worked on brand strategy and positioning. So we worked on actual messaging for campaigns and for websites, like for homepages, product descriptions, things like that. And it was a piece of technology for a platform. And, and then so dinner number two was very specific around, what do you think about what this company is saying and how they’re talking about their technology?

And that now that particular dinner informed what ended up on the website and what is in campaign development right now. And, you know, so CMOs are, you know, it’s a way to really kind of keep a quarterly pulse on, know, how their customers are evolving. Also how, you know, especially if it’s a B2B technology company.

John Jantsch (11:41.538)

Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline Lieberman (11:49.388)

You have a product roadmap, you’re constantly putting out new technology. So that’s always evolving. So, you know, they’re using it as these quarterly check-ins to understand if they’re on the right track.

John Jantsch (12:01.633)

Do you see this approach being something that has specific uses or do you think this is just going to reshape the way brands do research, period?

Jacqueline Lieberman (12:11.592)

mean, honestly, it’s, I mean, there’s nothing wrong with starting if brands are doing surveys, you know, things like that. I think there’s always a use for surveys because it casts out a wide net. And surveys will always be there for that reason is to get a beat on, you know, what the mass market or what your mass consumer is saying if we want to send it out to a couple of hundred people. Now, when you really start to

Any qualitative is usually second after that survey is like, okay, here are the general themes that we saw that people are saying and what they care about. Let’s dig in deeper. And usually that’s where, you know, focus groups and online panels come in. But, you know, as I said before, when we’re talking about really understanding, say, executive level insights, C-suite insights, they’re not going to focus groups. They’re not joining.

online panels, and maybe they’ll be doing a survey maybe. So this is the way to really understand what that B2B executive is really caring about and what motivates them.

John Jantsch (13:22.092)

Have you heard from clients that have done, I don’t know, let’s call it traditional as opposed to anti-focus group. Have you heard from some that say, wow, this is different or what’s been the feedback?

Jacqueline Lieberman (13:34.97)

yeah. I mean, I can’t so the feedback from clients and I’ll talk about the guests in a minute. but what clients are really loving is the fact that there there is this brand halo effect that happens. That’s that intangible effect of when people are leaving on a high. So even if they didn’t know the sponsoring brand coming in, you know, we disclose who the sponsoring company is. But even if they weren’t familiar with it at first, say,

John Jantsch (13:41.284)

Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline Lieberman (14:04.822)

Now they’re leaving the room, understanding them better, leaving on a high, networking and exchanging numbers with other guests. So it became like this peer to peer exchange dinner by default. you can’t beat getting a beautifully designed 15 to 20 page chock full of actionable insights where we go, here’s the main insight.

Here’s the main implication and here’s the very specific marketing opportunity. You get that within 10 days, not a month, not six weeks, not anything that you need like, well, can we look at this or that? Can you cut the data this way? It’s 10 days, they get exactly what they need to act on. And that’s what they’ve been loving.

John Jantsch (14:51.812)

So I heard you say that they may not know the brand. these are not customers. I just made an assumption that they’re interviewing customers or having customers at these.

Jacqueline Lieberman (14:59.648)

It’s a little it’s been both. So some it’s been let’s invite our existing pool of customers. And then there’s been you know what, we need to just recruit our existing profile and of people who may or may not know us, but we’re going to invite them to dinner anyway. So and you know, there’s a lot of gold in inviting those types of guests as well.

John Jantsch (15:22.99)

So there are some logistics, right? They have to be in the room. So do you, know, lot of B2B brands, their clients might be all over the country, all over the world. So does that add a layer of logistics and cost, I assume, right? Yeah.

Jacqueline Lieberman (15:26.094)

Correct.

Jacqueline Lieberman (15:33.368)

Yes.

Jacqueline Lieberman (15:38.072)

For sure. Yeah. I mean, I think really what we do is we start with the customer, the sponsoring company. Everybody has a sales, Jen demand, Jen lead list. So everybody has warm leads, hot leads. We start there and say, okay, who, who are they? Can we, can we get them into in a specific geo? And then once we get the geography down, then we pick the, the 20 that really will.

move the needle for the sponsoring company. then, you know, the, take care of all the logistics from there, which is as soon as I have those 15 to 20 people, then we start the outreach and, and I have to say the, you know, the venue is also very important because again, if we want people to come, we want them to be excited about it, that it’s time well spent. it’s

it’s in a venue that either they’ve heard about been there before or someplace that they’ve always wanted to go and just haven’t been. So the venue is definitely a draw. And that’s why, you know, we really insist on keeping the quality very high, because we want it to be, you know, really well worth their time, you know, when when they enter. So, yeah.

John Jantsch (16:56.388)

Is this something in your mind that you could write a book about, that you could teach, that you could certify other people to do, or do you have any plans to scale it beyond your work?

Jacqueline Lieberman (17:07.266)

Yeah, I mean, I’ve thought about, you know, I thought about a book at least, in thinking about just kind of the magic that happens when you break bread with people around the table and and what you kind of learn from that because guests come in as complete strangers and then they leave almost as friends. I mean, they’re hugging me at the end, you know, taking selfies with a group selfies of all of us, they’re exchanging information.

John Jantsch (17:32.004)

Right.

Jacqueline Lieberman (17:36.174)

We connect on LinkedIn and every single person who on LinkedIn has commented on any of my posts, if they were a guest, they say, I mean, here’s the other thing. They haven’t just commented like one sentence like, that was great. Paragraphs, I’m getting paragraphs of comments saying this was unlike anything I’ve ever experienced. You know, it was a way that…

John Jantsch (17:55.204)

video.

Jacqueline Lieberman (18:02.274)

we opened up I keep in touch with the people around the table that I met that night now on a consistent basis. So it’s it’s a really nice ripple effect that happens, you know, after that particular dinner, which is which feels great. You know? Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:17.228)

Yeah, absolutely. Well, Jacqueline, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by and tell us a little bit about what you’re working on. Is there any place you’d invite people to find out more about your work or certainly about

Jacqueline Lieberman (18:30.016)

Yeah, absolutely. They can just go to brand crudo dot com and there’s an anti focus group tab right there and they can find out more info.

John Jantsch (18:40.132)

I’m going show my ignorance here and I’m sure you told me the last time you were on the show, what’s the significance of the word of the yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jacqueline Lieberman (18:46.03)

brand crudo. So part of the DNA method of what I uncover for brands to help out maneuver their competition is that I believe that every brand has a raw truth, you know, and that’s part of their DNA. So, so that’s where crudo came from. And, that’s what I helped them uncover and tell to the world through strategy.

John Jantsch (18:59.986)

John Jantsch (19:10.486)

Awesome. again, appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Jacqueline Lieberman (19:17.046)

awesome. Thank you, john. Thank you so much for having me. Bye bye.

John Jantsch (19:19.492)

You bet.

Stop Killing Ideas! Use “Yes, And” Instead of “No, Because”

Stop Killing Ideas! Use “Yes, And” Instead of “No, Because” written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Duncan Wardle

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Duncan Wardle, former Head of Innovation and Creativity at Disney, who shared his strategies for embedding innovation and creativity into organizational culture. Duncan has spent decades fostering innovation in some of the world’s most iconic brands, including Disney Imagineering, Pixar, and Lucasfilm. His fresh approach emphasizes breaking free from traditional thinking, fostering playful leadership, and reframing challenges to create breakthrough solutions.

During our conversation, Duncan highlighted the power of replacing the dismissive “No, because” mindset with the collaborative “Yes, and” approach. This simple shift not only encourages creative thinking but also transforms individual ideas into collective solutions that are more likely to succeed. By fostering a culture of playful leadership, embedding innovation into the DNA of teams, and solving consumer pain points with reframing strategies, leaders can drive sustainable growth and cultivate organizational creativity.

Key Takeaways:

Adopt the “Yes, And” Mindset
Replace “No, because” with “Yes, and” to foster collaborative brainstorming and build on ideas instead of shutting them down.
Reframe Challenges for Better Solutions
Instead of asking, “How can we make more money?” reframe questions to solve consumer pain points, like Disney did with their Magic Band innovation.
Leverage Playfulness to Unlock Creativity
Incorporate playful leadership techniques, such as short energizers and humor, to shift teams into a creative and problem-solving mindset.
Embed Innovation into Your Culture
Avoid isolating creativity in specific teams—empower all employees to think innovatively as part of their roles.
Look Outside Your Industry for Inspiration
Borrow ideas and technologies from other industries to inspire creative thinking and problem-solving.
Reclaim Imagination and Creativity
Break free from the constraints of traditional education and encourage curiosity, intuition, and imagination in your workplace.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introduction to Duncan Wardle
[01:00] Defining Innovation and Embedding a Culture of Creativity
[03:12] Embracing Innate Creativity
[04:48] The Future of Employability
[09:38] Collaborative Brainstorming Exercise
[12:43] Unlocking Creativity through Playfulness and Collaboration
[17:01] River of Thinking and Innovation

More About Duncan Wardle:

Check out Duncan Wardle’s Website
Connect with Duncan Wardle on LinkedIn
Read The Imagination Emporium: Creative Recipes for Innovation by Duncan Wardle

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.89)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Duncan Wardle. He’s the former head of innovation and creativity at Disney. Duncan played a pivotal role in fostering innovation across Imagineering, Lucasfilm, Marvel, Pixar, and Disney parks, crafting enchanting new storylines and experiences. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today, The Imagination Emporium.

Creative recipes for innovation. So Duncan, welcome to the show.

Duncan (00:34.324)

Thank you, thanks very much for having me.

John Jantsch (00:36.074)

So one of my viewers, listeners, not viewers, won’t be able to know this, but one of my favorite characters is Goofy. You’ve got him right there behind you.

Duncan (00:46.794)

Yeah, so yes, these are hand-painted. It’s not an illustration. Yeah, they were created a few years ago now.

John Jantsch (00:55.106)

Very, very cool. So there was a book I read right when I was getting started, actually, that was very influential on me. was written by Peter Drucker and one of the comments in there was that he said that the only two things in business that matter are marketing and innovation. Everything else is a cost. I think a lot of people quote that and I’ve heard that phrase many times, but I’m wondering, like,

If we asked 10 people what innovation actually was at a company, I think we would get maybe 11 or 12 definitions. So how do you frame the idea of innovation? mean, it’s very large concept.

Duncan (01:32.57)

Yeah, crystal clear. Creativity is the ability to have an idea. We can all do that. We do it every day. Innovation is the ability to get it done. The challenge for most of us is the more experience, the more expertise we have, the more reasons we know why the new idea won’t work. So we constantly shoot it down. I call it our river of thinking. And it’s very fast and very wide and very allowing you and me to make quick and informed decisions. But in the last four years, we’ve seen global pandemics.

John Jantsch (01:39.394)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice.

Duncan (01:58.762)

We’ve seen Generation Z entering the workplace but doesn’t want to work for corporate America. We’ve got artificial intelligence entering the marketplace. And what was the fourth one? There’s four of them. Global pandemic, Generation Z entering the workplace, artificial intelligence. Doesn’t matter. The world’s changed, right? And it’s changed irrevocably. We can’t go back to thinking the way we thought four years ago. And so, you know, Disney, I tried four models of innovation. Model number one.

I hired somebody who knew what they were doing. I said, make me look good. That was an agency. And to a certain extent, they did. They were never around for execution. And they certainly weren’t going to show me how they did what they did, or they were worried I wouldn’t hire them again. Model number two, we’re creating an innovation team. Duncan will be in charge. What could possibly go wrong? Well, outside of legal, who does legal work? Outside of marketing, who does marketing work? Nobody. So when you create an innovation team, you subliminally just told everybody else you’re off the hook.

We tried an accelerator program which created some level of access enabling us to partner with some young tech startups and bring some new technology to market. But we had failed in our overall goal, which was set by the CEO of Disney, was how might we embed a culture of innovation and creativity into everybody’s DNA. So I set out to create a toolkit that has three principles. It takes the BS out of innovation and makes it less intimidating to normal, hardworking people.

Make creativity tangible for those people who are uncomfortable with ambiguity and gray. Fun, more importantly, make the process fun. Give people tools they choose to use when you and I are not around.

John Jantsch (03:31.062)

All right, so and I’m sure you hear this all the time. I know you’ll have a great answer for this, but what do do in those organizations or individuals who we know there are lots of them, but say, I’m just not creative. Yeah.

Duncan (03:44.488)

Yeah, I disagree. I’m sorry. Look, let me ask you question. When you were a small boy, what was your favorite toy?

John Jantsch (03:54.094)

Probably a stick.

Duncan (03:55.594)

See what why because the stick was your lightsaber. That’s why it was your wand It was anything you wanted it to be and we were all born creative with an amazing image when you were given a gift for a holiday and it came in an enormous box and it took you ages to take the toy out of the box what do you spend the rest of week playing with Yeah, the box right it was your rocket it was your force it was your cart It was anything you wanted to be till you went to the number one killer of creativity Education and the first thing your first grade teacher told you to do was don’t forget to color in between the lines

John Jantsch (04:10.798)

The fort.

John Jantsch (04:20.044)

Right.

Duncan (04:24.586)

Small children, they’re very curious. ask why, why, why, why, why again? Because they’re seeking the core consumer truth. They’re after the insight for innovation. If I were to survey 5,000 people and ask them why they go to Disney on holiday, the number one response I’ll get is we go for the new attractions. But that’s not strictly true, is it? So if I were to rely just on my data, I’d go spend $250 million on a capital investment strategy. But if I pause for a moment and I act childlike, not childish, and say, well, why do you go for the new attractions? Well, now I like the classics. Why do you like the classics? Well, I like it’s a small world.

Why do you like it? a small world. Why remember music? God, no, not the music. Why the music? Where’s my mum’s favourite ride we used to go every summer? Why is that important to you 20 years later? I’ll take my daughter now. Boom. There’s your insight for innovation. Call consumer truth. It’s got nothing to do with the capital investment strategy and everything to do with that person’s personal memory and nostalgia. But then we go to the number one killer of curiosity, education. And the next thing we’re taught to do is to stop asking why, because there’s only one right answer. Here comes artificial intelligence, right?

You think we used to laugh at the blue collar workers? Well, guess what? They’ll be laughing at the white collar workers now. But I’ve been working with Google on their DeepMind project, which is their AI project. And I asked the lead engineer what I said, how the hell am I going to compete with this? You know, what will be the most employable skill sets the next five to 10 years? And she said, that’s easy. The ones that will be the hardest for her to program into AI. I said, well, what are those? says, the ones with which you were born, imagination, creativity, curiosity, empathy, and intuition. But they’re drummed out of us by the time we’re 18.

That’s the challenge.

John Jantsch (05:51.81)

Yeah, Of course, having some handy set of plumbing skills will become very necessary too though, It is.

Duncan (06:00.52)

No seriously hands-on workers absolutely fine. look I set out here’s why people say why do you write a book. Let me ask you quite an honest question here. When you see a business book in an office physically where is the book?

John Jantsch (06:15.022)

laying on a desk.

Duncan (06:16.616)

Yeah, there you go. it’s on the coffee table. It’s on the bookshelf. I’m going to get to it tomorrow, but my boss needs this now, so I actually never read it. I have good intentions to read it, but I don’t. So I thought, OK, how do I make it more accessible to people who’ve got other things to do? I thought, what nonfiction book have I ever read where I could read one page today and know exactly what I was going to do and not worry about the rest of the book today? My mum’s cookbook. You want shepherd’s pie? You got to pay 67. So the contents page is designed for busy people. It says, have you ever been to a brainstorm where nothing ever happened?

Go to page 67. Don’t know how to find insights for innovation? Go to page 42. Work in a heavily regulated industry? Go to page 67. So it’s designed to be very accessible, but it’s also designed to appeal to what I call the three sensory learning styles. So let me ask you a question. May I ask you to close your eyes for just a moment?

How many days are there in September? I would ask you to keep your eyes closed and tell me how you knew, how you remembered, how you learned or what you could see with your eyes closed right now. Bingo, you can open your eyes. 30 % of the people will recite the rhyme. 30 days has September, blah, blah. No, it’s true. And so they just told me they learn by listening. They probably read a lot. It’s an auditory style. How do I know that? Because they were six when they learned it. How did they remember it? Because they heard it. Another 30%.

John Jantsch (07:07.502)

30.

John Jantsch (07:15.626)

see a calendar.

John Jantsch (07:21.856)

Yeah, yeah.

Duncan (07:33.502)

Put the knuckles together and start counting the knuckles. January, February, March, April, May, June, June. Those are kinesthetic learners. By the way, John, you were taught both, but you don’t remember either because that’s not your preferred learning style. You’re the majority of the audience. You learn by seeing. You represent 40 percent of the audience. So I thought, OK, how do I create a book that’s not a book? I want it to be a toolkit. I want it to be fun, but I want it to be purposeful. I want it to appeal to all three learning styles. So it has QR codes embedded with each chapter with Spotify playlists for auditory learners.

It has animated videos in each chapter where Duncan is now an animated character. I pop out of the book with a bunch of other characters I’ve created for the visual learners and teach you how to use the tools and for our kinesthetic learners starting, I think today, but maybe in a couple of days from now, the QR code on the back of the book will actually take you directly to the very first ever fully integrated artificial intelligence book.

Why? Because I’ve never done it before. That’s why. So you will be able to ask the book questions and through chat. It’ll answer you through WhatsApp. So you might say, how do I use the tool on page 67? And it’ll answer you. But you could also say, how do I use the tool on page 67 to develop a marketing campaign that’s more of a mercy to experience for my brand? And the book will answer you.

John Jantsch (08:50.158)

Who published this book?

Duncan (08:52.266)

You know what, Amplify

John Jantsch (08:54.798)

So I’ve written several books with major publishers and I’m envisioning the meeting where you described what this book was going to be like.

Duncan (09:04.2)

I kept telling the publisher, we thought, he said it’s a book. I said, hell no, it’s not. It’s a toolkit. By the way, I want to give it away for free. Needless to say, the publisher had other ideas. I still want to give it away for students because we are killing the most employable skill sets in the next decade.

John Jantsch (09:19.502)

Yeah. So if you’re going to work with an organization that, and again, I don’t know if that’s a service you offer consulting, but if you were going to work with an organization, I mean, what are some of the mindsets they would have, you would try to get them to change the habits you would get them to change that would really make this come to life?

Duncan (09:35.686)

Here’s the first one and this is particularly for leaders, right? Because again, the more experience we have, the more reasons we know why the new idea won’t work. So John, you and I have been tasked with coming up with an idea for a birthday party, for a Harry Potter birthday party. Are you familiar with Harry Potter?

John Jantsch (09:53.166)

I’m not a, yes, I’m familiar, but I’m not a junkie.

Duncan (09:59.378)

No, but have you seen a couple of films? OK, good. So I’m going to come at you with some ideas for a Harry Potter party. I’d like you to start each and every response with the following two words. No, because they’ll be the first two words you use and you’ll tell me why not. I was thinking of coming to your house, putting a sorting hat outside the front door, having all the good people get the Gryffindor party, but all the bad people get the Slytherin party.

John Jantsch (10:01.079)

I have.

John Jantsch (10:20.428)

No, because everybody just wants to play Quidditch.

Duncan (10:24.921)

right, I tell you what then, we’ll give everybody a broomstick and they can go running around the back garden looking like idiots and work the snitch to be acting on a drone.

John Jantsch (10:29.806)

No, because they can’t really fly.

Duncan (10:34.406)

Alright, fair point. I’ll tell you what then, let’s say that we’ll bring them all indoors and we’ll have a magic potions room where we can all drink something that turns us into something totally freaky.

John Jantsch (10:42.766)

no, because, there’s actually a giant animal in the back closet that would probably eat everyone.

Duncan (10:53.898)

Fair point. tell you what then, what if we just showed the movies? We’ll put them on your TV screen and we’ll serve butterbeer and No because, come on. So let me ask you question. When somebody’s constantly no becauseing you, how does that make you feel?

John Jantsch (11:00.14)

that’s perfect. No, because there might be somebody allergic to popcorn.

John Jantsch (11:13.432)

frustrated.

Duncan (11:14.364)

Okay, I would call it business as usual. Let me ask you a question. Do you think our idea was getting bigger as we were going or was it getting smaller? Which way was it headed?

John Jantsch (11:16.578)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:21.486)

It was, we were down to watching the movies. It was getting smaller.

Duncan (11:25.48)

Yeah, all right. Let’s start again. Are you familiar with Star Wars? OK, so I’m going to come at you with some Star Wars ideas. Unlike Harry Potter, where you started the response every single time with no, because this time I’d like you to start every single response with the words yes and and we’ll just build on it together. So I was thinking of coming to your house, getting into the kitchen, painting it black, turning it into the Death Star canteen and we could have a food and wine festival and half of the boo and tattoo.

John Jantsch (11:29.518)

Yes.

John Jantsch (11:50.632)

yeah, yes, and let’s add stormtroopers.

Duncan (11:53.462)

yes, and yeah, we can have a cosplay party. All the tall people could come as Darth Vader and all the little people would come dressed as Ewoks.

John Jantsch (11:55.993)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And we’ve got to have Yoda, don’t we?

Duncan (12:03.121)

yes, and we can have the force. Everybody get a glow in the dark lightsaber full of their favorite alcoholic liquid.

John Jantsch (12:10.198)

Yes, and what about Darth Vader? Could he appear?

Duncan (12:14.362)

yes, and we could have Harrison Ford. We could bring back, yeah, or even the dead celebrities could come back via hologram and we could take them all on your corporate jet down to Disneyland to see the new galaxy’s edge.

John Jantsch (12:24.526)

Yes, and why not invite George Lucas?

Duncan (12:27.176)

Alright, so we’ll stop there. So a lot more laughter, a lot more energy. Most of us became Italian for the first time today, waving our arms. This time around, bigger or smaller.

John Jantsch (12:31.608)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:37.432)

Well, it kept getting much larger.

Duncan (12:39.434)

You can always take a big idea and value engineer it down. Pretty hard to turn a small one into a big one. Far more importantly, we work inside big organizations, we work inside small organizations, we have colleagues and constituents and clients to bring on board with our idea. By the time you and I just finished building the idea together, whose idea was it by the time we finished?

John Jantsch (12:58.145)

well was totally mine.

Duncan (12:59.53)

I would argue ours, John, thank you. So here’s the thing, two little magical words, yes and, have the power to turn a small idea into a big one really quickly. But far more importantly, have the power to transfer my idea, which never goes anywhere inside an organization, to our idea and accelerate its opportunity to get done. Just remind yourselves, I know you’re leaders, I know you’ve got responsibilities and quarterly results and deadlines. Just remind ourselves, we’re not green lighting this idea for execution today. We are merely green housing it together using yes.

If you take nothing away from listening to today’s podcast, don’t let the words know because be the first two words out of your mouth when somebody comes at you with a new idea. They have made genius two days from now, two weeks from now. You’ll never hear it. Your job as a leader is just that you’ll get to the know because but don’t start there. The other thing that I tried to teach is playfulness and I’ll tell you for why. Can I ask you to close your eyes? Where are you and what are you doing when you get your best ideas?

John Jantsch (13:47.405)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:59.438)

Definitely outside.

Duncan (14:01.768)

OK, so you can open your eyes. I’ve done this with up to 20,000 people. You’re here. Shower, bathroom, jogging, walking, driving, commuting, gym. Do you know how many people say at work? Nobody. Not one person ever writes down at work. Well, why not? Close your eyes again. Picture that last argument you were in. Bit of a shouting match. You’re angry at them. They’re angry at you. Now you turn to walk away from that argument. You’re 10, 20, 30 seconds away. You’re about a minute away from the argument and…

John Jantsch (14:12.142)

the

Duncan (14:30.026)

What just popped into your brain totally spontaneously the second you turned to walk away from that argument? What was it? Well, you should have said the killer one-liner, that one perfect, beautiful lie. You wish you’d choose to the argument, but you didn’t, did you? No, never did. Why not? Because when we’re in an argument, our brain is moving at a thousand miles an hour defending ourselves. When we’re at work, we’re doing emails and presentations and reports and we hear ourselves say, the number one barrier to innovation, I don’t have time to think. And when you say, don’t have time to think, you’re in the brain state science calls beta.

John Jantsch (14:34.702)

what I should have said.

Nope.

Duncan (14:58.57)

where the door between conscious and subconscious brain is firmly closed. When that door is closed, you only have access to your conscious brain. That is 13 % of the capacity of your brain. 87 % of the capacity of your brain is your subconscious brain. Every creative problem you’ve ever solved, every innovation you’ve seen is back here to serve as unrelated stimulus. But when the door is shut, you don’t have access to it. So how do I move you from there metaphorically and place you back in the shower where it is when you have your best ideas? You can still make an informed decision.

But still have a big idea that brain state is known as alpha. I call it amazing alpha. The best brain state for creativity at work. How do I get you there? By being playful. What do I do? I run an energizer. Well, what’s that? It’s a 60 second exercise. What am I doing? I’m making you laugh. Why am I making you laugh? Because the moment I hear laughter, I know that I’ve just opened the door between your conscious and subconscious brain. When we ask who are the most creative people you’ve ever met, everybody always says children. And I always hear people say, we don’t have the resources. You say,

Who are the most creative people? Children. how much money they got? none. Now, I don’t expect people to be playful every minute of every day. Life would be great fun, but we wouldn’t get much work done. I do expect you, particularly as leaders, to be playful at the right time.

John Jantsch (16:07.18)

Yeah, you know, I read something recently about this idea of why children, you know, are able to have just such rich imaginations and such creativity. and it, well, the person concluded that, that actually, you know, young children, particularly, are halfway in a fantasy world, you know, and, we sort of the school and everything sort of beats that out of them says, no, this is reality. But, but it’s an interesting thought that,

Duncan (16:16.778)

I haven’t gone to school yet.

John Jantsch (16:34.778)

They’re able to be so creative because they really live between reality and fantasy.

Duncan (16:39.922)

Yeah, very true. Very true. No, it’s true. Education is killing the most employable skill sets of the next decade. The future of education is gaming. Education will not exist as it exists today. Why? Because it deserves to die. Why? Because your children are learning the same thing I learned at school but I went in the 70s. That’s why.

John Jantsch (16:47.694)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:56.483)

Yeah. Yeah. Multiplication tables are not going to be really a necessary skill, are they? So I want to talk a little more about, you mentioned it briefly, but I think there’s a lot more to this idea of river of thinking. Can you kind of talk about that metaphor and how it both informs and gets in the way?

Duncan (17:12.38)

Yeah, we all got stuck in it. You know, I worked at Disney for 30 years and I was helping Lucas, Lucas Films, Marvel and Pixar have new ideas. But the challenge is when you’re talking to anybody who’s worked in one particular line of business for a long time is they become so entrenched in what I call their river of thinking. So let me explain how that or the danger of a river of thinking. You and I are going to go into business together and we’re going to open a car wash. Tell me if you were three or four essential ingredients we must have in our car wash.

John Jantsch (17:41.454)

customers, water, employees.

Duncan (17:42.718)

What else?

Employees, customers, employees and water. OK, you and I are actually, are venture capitalists. We’ve been invited to open a brand new franchise of auto spas. Who are a spa? Now close your eyes. What would you what have you seen in the spa? What would you like to see in your spa? What could we have in the spa?

John Jantsch (18:06.926)

Great music. Very, very comfortable, fancy chairs.

Duncan (18:08.714)

Okay, what else?

Duncan (18:13.94)

Okay.

Duncan (18:18.442)

What else have you seen? There we go. So you can open your eyes. I said car wash straight into your river of thinking, right? Water brushes, so vacuum dryer. I said auto spa, which is about the same product. We’ve got masseuses, we’ve got many pedis. So this tool is brilliant. Walt Disney created it. He said we will not have any customers in our park. We will only have guests. We will not have any employees. We’ll only have cast members. And with that simple re-expression of the relationship between the customer and the employees, the cast member, the guests.

John Jantsch (18:18.774)

Aromas aromas. Yeah

John Jantsch (18:25.32)

Yeah.

Duncan (18:47.514)

everybody got out of their river of thinking created this culture of hospitality. Our river of thinking is this, how might we make more money? How might we make our quarterly results? If we continue to ask that question, we’d put the gate price up at Walt Disney World by three percent, you’d have complained and we’d have made our quarterly results. You don’t get to iterate in a post pandemic world. You innovate or you die. So instead of asking the question we ask ourselves every day, because that’s our river of thinking, how might we make more money? We reversed the challenge and said,

How might we solve the biggest consumer pain point? Everybody knew what it was. It was called standing line. And I said, what if there were no lines? Didn’t know how to solve it at the time. And we looked outside of our industry for an insight for innovation. Most of the insights for innovation come from looking outside of your industry. It’s called Where Else? It’s in the book. And we noticed there was a very small pharmacy in Tokyo, Japan, using RFID technology to enable people not to stand in line. Welcome to the world of Disney’s Magic Band. Does it come in red or gray in the mail?

Of it does. Why? Because you’re like, right, the Star Wars edition. Does it come with matching merchandise? Of course it does. This is my room key today. I don’t check in or check out of a Disney Resort Hotel. It’s my theme park tickets, my reservations for my character meet and greets and my rides. Now it’s morphing towards the phone. I can pull for merchandise and have it sent to my hotel room or house, depending on how many times I touch it. I can order my food through my smartphone, walk into the restaurant when I want to walk in, sit at the table I want to sit at. The food comes fresh to me. Had we started by saying, how might we make more money? Yeah, we’d have made 3%.

but by reversing the challenge and asking how might we solve and getting out of our river of thinking, say, how might we solve the biggest consumer pain point? The average guest at Walt Disney World today has two hours free time they didn’t have six years ago each and every day. What does that result in? Record intent to recommend, record intent to return and record revenues. What do people do with their free time in Disney parks? They spend a bucket load of money.

John Jantsch (20:29.58)

Yeah. All right. Buy more stuff. Absolutely. Well, Duncan, this has been a fascinating interview. I’m not sure if you interviewed me or I interviewed you, but nonetheless, I think the listeners will be the better for it. I really appreciate you taking a moment to stop by. there someplace you’d invite people to find out more about your work and the imagination?

Duncan (20:40.906)

you

Duncan (20:54.228)

Well, they can normally find me in the Lammon Flag pub in Covent Garden, but if I’m not there, they could go to the imagination emporium dot com or Duncan Wardle.

John Jantsch (21:01.762)

Well, again, I appreciate you taking a moment to share and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road. Likewise.

Duncan (21:07.388)

Nice to meet you.

Why Two Weeks Notice Is Hurting Workplace Culture

Why Two Weeks Notice Is Hurting Workplace Culture written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Robert Glazer

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Robert Glazer, founder of Acceleration Partners, a global partner marketing agency, and author of the bestselling book Rethinking Two Weeks Notice. Robert is an expert in workplace culture, employee retention, and leadership. His work challenges outdated corporate practices and offers fresh strategies for creating thriving workplace environments.

During our conversation, Robert shared powerful insights on why the traditional “two weeks’ notice” practice is no longer effective and how companies can replace it with the Open Transition Program. By fostering psychological safety, improving communication, and rethinking job exit strategies, businesses can enhance employee retention, protect workplace culture, and build long-term loyalty.

Robert Glazer’s fresh perspective on employee transitions offers actionable strategies for improving employee retention, workplace culture, and corporate reputation. By replacing outdated practices like the two weeks’ notice with the Open Transition Program, businesses can create a supportive, loyal, and high-performing work environment.

Key Takeaways:

Why Two Weeks’ Notice Is Outdated
The traditional two weeks’ notice creates rushed transitions, strains relationships, and disrupts workplace culture. This outdated rule often leaves both employers and employees feeling dissatisfied and unsupported during career transitions.
The Open Transition Program: A Better Solution
Robert introduced the Open Transition Program, a proactive approach that encourages open conversations about career transitions. By providing a structured and supportive process, employees can leave on better terms, ensuring smoother transitions for all parties.
Psychological Safety Is the Foundation of Loyalty
Building psychological safety within the workplace allows employees to share their career aspirations and challenges without fear. This creates an environment of trust, where transitions can be managed with transparency and respect.
Strengthening Workplace Culture Through Better Transitions
Employee transitions are a crucial but often overlooked aspect of workplace culture. A thoughtful approach to resignations and career changes demonstrates respect for employees and reinforces a culture of trust and collaboration.
The Long-Term Benefits of Positive Transitions
Companies that implement better job exit strategies often see long-term benefits, including alumni referrals, Boomerang employees, and stronger client relationships. Treating employees well at the end of their tenure creates lifelong advocates for the brand.
Replacing Resentment with Respect
Traditional resignation practices can leave both employees and employers feeling resentful. The Open Transition Program focuses on respect, ensuring that employees leave on a positive note while protecting the company’s reputation.
The Cost of Ignoring Exit Strategies
Ignoring the importance of employee transitions can lead to high turnover, damaged client relationships, and a negative reputation. Implementing modern job exit strategies can mitigate these risks and foster long-term success.

Chapters:

[00:00] Opening
[00:34] Introduction to Robert Glazer
[01:20] Problems with the Traditional Two Weeks Notice
[03:45] Replacing Two Weeks Notice with the Open Transition Program
[05:30] Addressing Employee Performance Issues Early and Constructively
[10:04] Organizational Culture and Open Transition Programs
[17:24] Structured Employee Transitions and Client Retention

More About Robert Glazer:

Check out Robert Glazer’s Website
Connect with Robert Glazer on LinkedIn
Read Rethinking Two Weeks’ Notice: Changing the Way Employees Leave Companies for the Better by Robert Glazer

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.705)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Robert Glazer. He’s the founder and chairman of the board of Acceleration Partners, a global partner marketing agency and the recipient of numerous industry and company culture awards, including Glassdoor’s Employees Choice Awards two years in a row. He’s the author of the inspirational newsletter, Friday Forward. Everybody should subscribe and the number one Wall Street.

Robert Glazer (00:08.144)

Thank

John Jantsch (00:30.571)

journal USA Today and international bestselling author of five books. We’re going to talk about his latest today, Rethinking Two Weeks Notice, Changing the Way Employees Leave Companies for the Better. So Robert, welcome back to the show.

Robert Glazer (00:31.322)

Bye.

Robert Glazer (00:44.548)

John, thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (00:46.185)

So, the enemy is two weeks notice the standard practice of, of, Hey, I’m, I got a better offer. I’m giving you my two weeks notice or the other way around. You’re not working out here. You got two weeks notice. So that kind of deal. So, so why is that bad?

Robert Glazer (00:57.54)

Yeah, here’s two weeks severance. Yeah.

Robert Glazer (01:03.824)

There’s two problems that we have. Well, I’m a big fan of psychology and cognitive dissonance. And so the left side of our brains knows that we’re not in lifetime employment situation anymore. We don’t have pensions, people are going to work forever. And yet when people then leave our organization, the right side of the brain, we treat it more like the end of a marriage than the end of a professional sports contract, like this huge betrayal or otherwise. So we’re just not reconciling.

these two things and it produces bad outcomes. You have employees who leave employers and their managers and their mentors with a bad taste in their mouth. what they’re told by their parents, two weeks notice. That’s what you do, it’s respectful. But if you mentored someone for three years, you trusted them, you gave them a lot of rope and they were out a little bit and had doctor’s appointments and now they’re leaving in two weeks.

John Jantsch (01:44.791)

Yeah. Right.

Robert Glazer (01:55.874)

You don’t realize, I mean, I get a lot of back channel references over the years. Everything is layout. You’re going for a job, two jobs from now and someone reaches out and they’re like, yeah, John, like, I just remember how you left, right? And so endings really matter. If you’re planning a conference, your last speaker is really important. It’s sort of, it’s everything that people remember. And then similarly for the company, particularly in a service business, know, clients hate account turnover.

John Jantsch (02:10.486)

Yes.

John Jantsch (02:14.433)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (02:22.436)

rushing to get a new person, all these things. it just really is suboptimal. It’s just an outdated process. Most people just don’t know what to replace it with.

John Jantsch (02:30.423)

Yeah.

Right. Yeah. It’s funny. I, you know, in marketing circles, I mean, I pay a lot of attention to testimonials and reviews and things like that. And it’s amazing how really the perception that somebody has of the brand is not the brand, but Rusty, you know, the guy that fixed their boiler, you know, or whatever.

Robert Glazer (02:50.832)

Look, anyone listening to this, if you are either personally or professionally, whether it’s accounting firm or your marketing agency, there is nothing that hurts the reputation more of a professional services firm than account turnover. It’s the thing that puts it at risk. If you’ve ever been with a brand and you get three different managers in 12 months, you’re like, I’m out. I don’t want to do this anymore.

John Jantsch (03:03.501)

John Jantsch (03:07.777)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was too much work to get in a rhythm. all right. So I’m just going to jump right into your concept of what would replace it. The open transition program OTP. You got to love a framework. So Robert, let’s just go there. We’re going to talk about bits of it, but maybe set the table. What is, what is your, theory about replacing two weeks notice?

Robert Glazer (03:12.89)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (03:35.408)

Yeah. So, so it’s not just the theory because we practiced it for over 10 years and, and, but it is a theory, but it’s also, and I’ve had a lot of other leaders just with little bits and pieces who wanted to be better reached out. And look, we were building a great culture and just the two week notice thing felt antithetical to that. So we tried this concept of a transition program that said, look, when you’re ready to leave, we’ve created psychological safety, come and have an open, honest conversation with us. We will never walk anyone out the door that day if they come and have it. And likewise,

John Jantsch (03:41.185)

You

Robert Glazer (04:04.336)

our managers are gonna have honest conversations with you. And when we kind of sense that something’s not going right, we’ll see if we can fix it. And most problems, if you actually get to them earlier, they don’t become irrecoverable. If you wait long enough, then everyone’s pissed and they can’t get it. It almost doesn’t even matter what the original problem was. Now you’ve got this whole vicious trust cycle and stuff going on.

John Jantsch (04:21.921)

Yeah. Yeah.

Robert Glazer (04:26.266)

So we said, look, it’s okay, we’ll enter you into a transition program and maybe that’s 90 days, but you’re working here and you’re starting to interview and you’re communicating with your boss about that. And maybe our HR teams helping you with your resume. And we want you to be a productive alumni member. When it’s time to go, we want that to be a good outcome. And we’d rather do that and have less surprises and pay you to work here, understanding we’re gonna get some diminished capacity.

paying you severance or paying you kind of not to work or go away and blowing the thing up at the end.

John Jantsch (05:01.557)

Yeah, there’s a couple things you said there. I want to circle back to that idea that most problems are created by because we just don’t deal with them because we’re like, I, you know, an employee gets fired, but I should have done that three months ago, you know, kind of, kind of thing. And so it just really deteriorates. So, I think that’s, that’s, I think people have to realize that before they can start thinking about the open transition program, right?

Robert Glazer (05:26.768)

Right. is psychological safety is that there’s four components, psychological safety, open communication, mutual respect and commitment to be mutually beneficial outcomes. Psychological safety is the foundation of this. With it, you can have some good outcomes. it’s, we’re recording this in December. John, like if I am firing you this week, cause I am at my wits end where I was going to put you on a pip and you’re with your wits end. What the issue was probably emerged in March and.

John Jantsch (05:31.095)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (05:55.288)

If I had really, and it emerges some performance problems, but this is the issue. Like this is like Western medicine versus Eastern. If three people have a headache and I give them a Tylenol, it might help the headache, but one is dehydrated, one’s allergic to gluten and one has a brain tumor, right? Tylenol is not a cure for that. So I talk in this book around digging to the root and there’s three common roots. Problems the employee needs to fix, problems the employer can fix and wants to fix, and then problems that.

they’re not gonna fix. So I start noticing you’re a little off in March and instead of saying, John, you gotta do better or whatever, I’m like, John, like what’s going on? And you confide in me, because I’m your manager and you might say one of three totally different things. One, you lost your childcare and so you’re really tired and distracted or you’re going through a separation and so you’re just not there. And so was like, look, John, I can help with this, we can change your hours, but this is on you to fix. And generally, if you repair that problem,

your satisfaction with work and your performance is gonna improve. The second one you say, look, the last three people that we hired were at a higher level me, higher salary, I’m doing the same work, I was promised a raise years ago, like I’m just getting really frustrated, right? And if I look at that and I say, geez, John’s right, like we kind of overlooked him. I might say he’s not and that’s a different discussion, you he wants a but he’s right. So we give him the promotion he deserves, he gets a new manager and boom, it recovers.

John Jantsch (07:13.099)

Yeah. Right.

Robert Glazer (07:21.616)

The third one, the one not gonna fix, John comes and says, look, I know you told me a remote only company and I thought I wanted that, but I’m just, missing an office. And you know, that leads to a discussion like, hey John, we’re not getting offices. Like, so why don’t we help you find a better opportunity? So each of those circumstances might’ve showed up in a performance problem, but they have totally different roots and totally different solutions. And that’s why this program can have a good outcome. If I lean in early and we’re doing this transition in the third case,

you know, in July, that’s different because one of the common objections is like, you can’t do this, people are toxic, all this stuff. like, look, John’s toxic in December because this has been going on for six months and now I’m pissed at him and he’s pissed at me and otherwise. the other objection, well, people will, they’ll steal and they’ll do this and people when they’re leaving all this stuff. And to that, I would say if you have a lot of people that are constantly acting toxic and stealing stuff as they’re on the way out of your company,

John Jantsch (08:01.569)

the

John Jantsch (08:10.229)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (08:21.464)

Either you are really doing a terrible job in hiring or there’s something about your culture that’s making them that way. And either of those scenarios require a little bit of a deeper look.

John Jantsch (08:27.692)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:33.005)

Yeah, and that’s the real common idea behind the practice, right? It’s like, well, once we decided to fire this person, we like take away their computer, get them out the door, right? Because they’re going to do something bad.

Robert Glazer (08:41.68)

Even before that, I think in the three months when you know you have to fire John and you don’t, because John’s a super nice and likable guy, but he’s just not doing well, you start to distance him and push him away and sort of make him out to be a bad guy so that it makes it easier for you when you fire a bad guy. This would advocate the opposite. Like John, we talked about this John a few months ago, John, come into my office in July. Like John, I love you.

John Jantsch (08:45.195)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:59.467)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Robert Glazer (09:06.81)

but you know that you can’t be a 50 % quota on our sales team for four quarters in a row. This isn’t working. Do you wanna be in sales? What do you wanna do? Can we help you do something different? You can lean into the relationship while holding the performance component there, but I think it’s better to go that way than to, your brain can’t, this is cognitive distance 101. It can’t handle that John’s a good guy and a bad worker, so I have to make him a bad guy so that I feel better.

John Jantsch (09:11.117)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (09:24.777)

Yeah. Right.

John Jantsch (09:32.653)

Let’s use a Susie for our example instead of John. Okay. So, so you have, you have a company that, helps, people create partnerships that are beneficial to their businesses. that’s, you’ve written books about that, which is a very common thing for an author to do, to, and, and.

Robert Glazer (09:36.046)

Yeah, so you know, you’re not the first person to say that, but the next example will be Suzy.

John Jantsch (10:00.801)

business owner to do to write a book that supports their, what they do, what their core mission is. You’ve written a couple, what I would call people ops books, that probably on the S on the very, very surface, you know, don’t seem like they would support your business objective. And yet here we are. So why, why, is this topic? So are you so passionate about this topic of people?

Robert Glazer (10:23.28)

It’s a great question. I think yeah, we are a marketing agency, but we’re also a services firm. And after 20 years of building a services firm, you can be interchangeable with a psychologist, right? It is every issue is a people issue. There’s never a broken widget. There’s never a broken press or a shipment that’s late with FedEx. And so I, you know, as a building organization, you know, we were discovering, I wanted to build this great culture. It required rethinking a lot of the

practices I had seen and as we kind of learned things and tested things, my purpose is to share ideas that help people and organizations grow. So I became kind of passionate about being a little bit of a laboratory and if we found something that worked, try to share it with people or companies. To me, companies and great leadership are the solutions to our problems. If it’s not clear to you in 2025 that government is not the solution to your problems these days, then to me that’s the biggest impact.

that we can all have is that one great leader and one great organization spawns off a whole legion of great leaders and go off, a horrible leader and a horrible organization spawns off a whole group of traumatized people. So that’s sort of the why behind.

John Jantsch (11:38.393)

So as I read the definition of open transition program, OTP, there’s a lot of culture in it first. I mean, I don’t think you wake up and go, I read Robert’s book and now we’re going to do this. Right. I mean, there’s, there’s a, if there’s not a culture of trust and there’s not a culture of we want you to succeed, you know, but what’s best for you. mean, how do you kind of start to change that?

in order to adopt this. Cause I think a lot of companies could not physically adopt this.

Robert Glazer (12:09.872)

No, no, actually thank you for saying that because there’s two disclaimers that I forgot to make. One is, do not read this book as an employee and go into a company with a horrible culture and say, hey, I’m thinking about leaving or whatever when they walk everyone to the door in hoods because this is not a bottoms up thing. This is a tops up thing. And as you said, if you have a, and I say it in the book, if you have a crappy culture and you have poor psychological safety, this probably isn’t going to work.

John Jantsch (12:19.159)

Yeah

John Jantsch (12:22.926)

Hehehehehe

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (12:37.136)

So it needs to be built on a foundation of that. I mean, the quickest way in an organization to really try to improve psychological safety, which is not easy, is vulnerability and feedback, right? Leaders are sharing more, they’re vulnerable, they’re real, and people see that feedback is welcome and taken and acted on, right? Those tend to be two of the main doors that open that up. But yeah, this is not…

This is actually a program for good companies and good leaders. And I’m not saying like myself, but like myself, we’re frustrated that the two week thing just doesn’t feel compatible with what they’re trying to do, but no one knows any other way. So I’ve had people ask, like, look, if my company doesn’t operate this, can I do this as my team leader? And I was like, look, there’s nothing that would preclude you from having open and honest conversations, encouraging people to come, you know, if you got to give HR

John Jantsch (13:14.583)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:20.033)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (13:34.434)

notice you can wait till four weeks and let them know.

John Jantsch (13:38.443)

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it’s interesting. While this is sort of a prescription for the end game, it’s actually a bit of a roadmap for how to not have as many end games, isn’t it?

Robert Glazer (13:51.536)

Yeah, you don’t, look, we even talk to people about this when they join, you know, so they feel like if I happen to make a mistake, it’s not going to be a disaster. People are going to leave, right? So the question, and it could be two years and it could be great or it could be four years. The key is just how do they not leave poorly? And how do you turn that into what McKinsey has mastered? And I think what we’ve had a lot of success with is like alumni, you know, you can have.

John Jantsch (14:00.407)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:19.211)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (14:19.92)

your alumni at some point might be more than the number of employees you have. And they can either be net promoters and that distractors our alumni like McKinsey consultants who go in-house at companies and hire McKinsey. They go in-house at large brands and you know, they tend to hire us back to help with that. But that only works if they, if they left on a good note. So there’s a real long game to be played. You know, we live in the real time checking and glass door and review world. it, it, it, it, it’s everyone knows about.

scorched earth these days. Actually, people know more about it of the company that scorches earth rather than the candidate. I’m waiting for someone to build the inverse of Glassdoor. But it’s all interconnected and your brand’s kind of live out there. And if you can turn something that’s a negative into a positive, we put all this work into hiring well and culture and we’ve just totally ignored leaving.

John Jantsch (14:50.807)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:14.209)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is sort of the ultimate expression of culture, isn’t it?

Robert Glazer (15:19.79)

Yeah. How you treat someone out the door, probably the door probably said when you have nothing to gain from them, it’s the same thing. How do you, you you enter, know a lot of people interview and they always try get into a meal and try to see how they treat the help or the server. How do they treat people that, you know, they’re not trying to impress because they tend to show their true stripes.

John Jantsch (15:26.893)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:34.817)

Yeah,

John Jantsch (15:41.197)

Since you’ve been doing this for a while, I assume, do you actually consult with other companies to do this? I’m not sure if that’s part of your model.

Robert Glazer (15:48.816)

I haven’t, I’ve done some workshops or I do more speaking on the topic, but other than the, this is actually like, I had a lot of people reach out just from the Ted Talk and the HBR article and tell me, I went and decided to try to have one of these real conversations. It was so much better, but they didn’t have sort of the playbook. So this is the first time the sort of playbook has hit the market. And so, yeah, if there are companies that need help with it, I’m happy to talk to them about it.

John Jantsch (16:06.391)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

John Jantsch (16:18.765)

Well, I mean, it to me, it sort of perfect workshop, you know, kind of material. But again, I think the hard part is you got to still you got to come with the right frame of mind. This is not going to fix the wrong frame of mind, is it? Yeah. Yeah.

Robert Glazer (16:23.46)

Yeah.

Robert Glazer (16:31.554)

No, you have to have the right company and the right people and there has to be a level of frustration and understand that the behavior of the employees will focus, will inherently go around what they see. There was a company I talked about in the book years ago that had won these cultures award and talked about their culture, super proud of their cultures. When I asked them how people left their company, they said, well, people give notice and then we ask them to leave that same.

because there’s a lot of risk. So they kind of march everyone out that same day with a box. And then like, if you think that anyone else is going to give you more than like, again, you’re worried about people stealing, they’re not going to steal at 10 a.m. on the day that they give notice, they’re going to do it the months beforehand because they see and they know that you’re going to throw them out that day. it is just this classic devil you don’t know versus devil you know.

John Jantsch (17:07.533)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:19.575)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:25.345)

Have you, have you determined any sort of metrics, employee morale, productivity? know, I mean, is there, I know this is in some ways just sort of a tweak to your culture anyway, and it’s not a giant pivot. So, you know, have you been able to determine maybe even anecdotally?

Robert Glazer (17:44.314)

can tell you it’s probably saved us just selfishly outside of the, look, it’s actually created, I can couple things. It’s also allowed for Boomerang employees because they leave well. A lot of employees would like to come back, but I think they’re even embarrassed based on how the end went or they gave two weeks notice and they don’t wanna call, they assume everyone hates them. So we’ve got a couple of our best employees be Boomerang employees. So I think that’s a great.

John Jantsch (17:48.417)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:55.733)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Well, truth.

John Jantsch (18:05.719)

Yeah, yeah.

Robert Glazer (18:11.92)

effort of it and then also just client retention. Like I know that there are clients we would have lost. I know that, you know, again, how this plays out in a services firm. if, you know, Tracy, we’ll pick on Tracy now, you know, Tracy gives two weeks notice and is my account manager on an account for maybe my PR firm.

John Jantsch (18:25.879)

Okay.

Robert Glazer (18:35.002)

So she comes on the weekly call and she says, hey Bob, I’m gonna leave in two weeks and there’s gonna be a replacement. I don’t know who it is yet, but they’ll reach out to you. Like I’m gonna be kind of pissed, right? But let’s say Tracy’s on a transition program. so they decide, so they find out about this two weeks later, they do some account shuffling and they bring in John. And John starts listening on the reverse week’s call, then leading in on week three and four and then building the rapport. And then by week eight or nine,

John Jantsch (18:43.063)

Yes, right.

John Jantsch (19:00.109)

Right.

Robert Glazer (19:03.834)

Tracy says, hey Bob, actually John’s gonna be taking over from here and now I know John, I’m already comfortable with John, like you just assuage this whole account turnover problem.

John Jantsch (19:12.941)

Yeah. Yeah. We actually do that even in a sales environment. you know, a of times people contact us cause they’ve read one of my books or something. and if I’m the one that’s having a meeting with them or I’m the one that starts, you know, they want John and, and so we’ve done that all along. It’s like, no, you get the team here. They are, they’re here on day one before you become a client. So that kind of leads me to, I don’t know if this is that kind of out there, but because you’re in a services business every now and then.

Robert Glazer (19:26.735)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:41.525)

A client needs two weeks notice. Right. Either, either you want to fire them or they want to fire you. Could some of this apply to a better outcome, you know, when you’re going to disengage with a client.

Robert Glazer (19:55.374)

Yeah, mean, ideally anyone would want time. Similar, we had some clients who, this goes a little to professional sports. You’ve got people hitting their free agency period, right? You know they’re not resigning, they’re not dogging it, they’re playing out their current contract knowing that they’re not gonna renew the contract. And I just think that if we could take a, yeah, no, usually they have their best year. Thank you, Scott Borass.

John Jantsch (20:06.434)

Right.

John Jantsch (20:17.633)

Well, sometimes they have their best year.

Robert Glazer (20:24.272)

And this is just, I think, where we could emulate a little more and take this a little less personally. People are not gonna work at your company forever. We’re just not, if they’re under 30, you talk to people under 30, they think two years is like a good term. Like that’s like, hey, I did my two years, it was great, like let’s move on. And so that’s the reality. And we just need to update our software for the version that we’re running.

John Jantsch (20:40.833)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (20:44.941)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:50.443)

Yeah. Yeah. I always kind of made a joke about the term when people talk about best practices. I’m like, well, there aren’t any better practices. Like, shouldn’t we try to do better practices as opposed to just what everybody does?

Robert Glazer (21:03.738)

Right? That’s funny. We always say at our company that we have a process for everything. And if you don’t know how to do it and you don’t have time or whatever, follow the existing process. But the goal is to upgrade all the existing processes. The difference is we want you to upgrade it for everyone, just not for yourself, right? Upgrade the software, upgrade the app. If you found a better way, do it and share it, right? Don’t, we don’t, want to be delivering a consistent service, but we don’t want it to just be consistently outdated.

John Jantsch (21:14.05)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:25.473)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:31.691)

Yeah. Well, Robert’s always great to visit with you. You are not only obviously building a strong culture at your own organization, you’re really contributing so much to the thinking on around the topic, even as a marketing company here. Here, most people think marketers are just cold blooded money grabbers, right? Just kidding.

Robert Glazer (21:57.604)

That’s salespeople.

John Jantsch (21:58.669)

That’s true. So I appreciate you taking a few months to about where can people find out more about your work and obviously more about rethinking Two Weeks Notice and that workshop that’s surely soon to be coming.

Robert Glazer (22:10.308)

Yeah, you can download the book anywhere that books are sold or audio books are sold. You can also go to robertglazer.com. That’s where all of my books, podcasts, newsletter, everything is on there. If you click on the Friday Forward Newsletter, you’ll then see a tab for rethinking two weeks notice. I have the book up on my sub stack and you can download the first, you can read the first three chapters totally free and see if it’s something that grabs you and you’ll get.

plenty of information even from those first three chapters.

John Jantsch (22:43.615)

Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you soon out there on the road.

Robert Glazer (22:47.78)

John, thanks for having me again.

The Secret to Smarter, Focused Productivity

The Secret to Smarter, Focused Productivity written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Tommy Mello

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Jay Papasan, a bestselling author, VP of strategic content at Keller Williams Realty International, and co-creator of The One Thing. Jay has dedicated his career to helping individuals and businesses achieve extraordinary results by simplifying priorities and mastering the art of focus. His expertise spans habit formation, goal setting, and purposeful decision-making, all aimed at fostering clarity and productivity in a world filled with distractions.

During our conversation, Jay shared powerful insights from his book and personal experiences, highlighting how small shifts in mindset and behavior can lead to transformational outcomes. From adopting effective morning habits to aligning decisions with core values, Jay broke down actionable strategies to help you navigate competing priorities, improve time management, and achieve sustainable business growth.

Key Takeaways:

Focus on the One Thing That Matters Most
Instead of juggling multiple priorities, identify and commit to the one task or goal that will make everything else easier or unnecessary.
Embrace the 66-Day Challenge for Habit Formation
Research shows it takes an average of 66 days to form lasting habits. Commit to this timeframe to develop successful habits that align with your goals.
Start Your Day with Morning Habits That Boost Clarity
Before picking up your phone, review your goals for the day. This simple shift ensures you prioritize what matters most over distractions.
Simplify to Achieve Business Growth
Focus on fewer initiatives executed at a higher level to improve team productivity and accountability, leading to sustainable success.
Align Decisions With Core Values
Use your core values as a filter for decision-making. If a choice doesn’t align with your top priorities, it’s a clear “no.”
Make Productivity Accessible to All
Writing and communicating at a simple, clear level—like the fifth-grade reading standard Jay uses—ensures your message resonates with a wider audience.
Leverage Strategic Planning for Long-Term Success
Build a one-page business plan with clear goals and initiatives. Simplicity fosters clarity and alignment across teams.
Purposeful Living Creates Work-Life Balance
By focusing on meaningful goals and eliminating unnecessary tasks, you can achieve a balance that supports both personal and professional success.

Chapters:

[00:00] Opening
[00:09] Welcoming Jay Papasan
[01:44] The Longevity and Impact of The One Thing
[06:34] Understanding the Concept of The One Thing and Applying Core Values
[12:03] Impactful Habits for Personal and Professional Success
[17:43] Evolution and Offerings of The One Thing Training Company

More About Jay Papasan:

Check out Jay Papasan’s Website
Connect with Jay Papasan on LinkedIn
Read The ONE Thing: The Surprisingly Simple Truth About Extraordinary Results by Tommy Mello

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.92)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jay, and my guest today is Jay Papasan. He’s a bestselling author and VP of strategic content for Keller Williams Realty International. He’s also the CEO of the One Thing Training Company, productive and co-owner of the Papasan Property Group in Austin, Texas. He’s co-authored several bestselling books, including one we’re going to talk a little bit about today, The One Thing.

Surprisingly simple truth about extraordinary results. So Jay, welcome to the show.

Jay Papasan (00:31.209)

Hey, thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

John Jantsch (00:33.61)

So I do want to ask about your title. What does a VP of strategic content do?

Jay Papasan (00:40.412)

It’s not what you think. I actually transitioned roles. was running three big departments and then got to focus again around the things I love. And when I was running our big marketing team here for about three years, if you’ve ever run a marketing team, you get lots of cold DMS on LinkedIn and everywhere else. So I was like, okay, I’m going to come up with something that is anti-marketing. So I like strategy. I love creating content. So I just made up a title.

John Jantsch (00:41.987)

You

Jay Papasan (01:09.332)

It doesn’t really mean anything. I don’t think there’s a lot of them out there. So I don’t get many cold DMs, so I consider it a success.

John Jantsch (01:16.654)

Yeah, well, I just assumed that it meant you made up all the content ideas and then told other people to do them.

Jay Papasan (01:24.172)

That is some of what I do. So I’m a part of five podcasts. I help create them. And I do some editorial direction, which is in my past, I was an editor. But I also put my fingers on the keyboards for our books and newsletters.

John Jantsch (01:25.486)

Hahaha

John Jantsch (01:41.067)

So the one thing, book, I read, did come out 11 years ago, 12 years ago? I read it when it came out.

Jay Papasan (01:47.468)

It came out April 1st, 2013, so 11 years ago.

John Jantsch (01:50.22)

Yeah, okay. Still sells year in, year out tons, has sold millions, translated into many languages. Is there anything that you would put your finger on? I mean, it’s one thing for a book to be really popular, but to remain that popular. Is there anything that you’ve identified that you think keeps it in selling year in, out?

Jay Papasan (02:10.412)

I’m a book nerd and my publisher is an engineer. So we probably overthink this to be honest. So Gary was very clear he wanted to write a timeless book. And I’ve had writing professors point out like you can’t use words like Kleenex and Frisbee because nobody will know what they mean in a hundred years. That’s a tissue. That’s a throwing disc. And strangely this guy who started an upstart real estate company thought the same way. So we did set out to write

a book that was more timeless than timely, which is counterintuitive in publishing. It’s very accessible. I ran the whole book through a program called the Hemingway app, and it’s written at a fifth grade reading level. And I had read research that the bestselling authors of all time write at a very surprisingly low grade level, like Hemingway fourth grade. And I’ve trained myself, if I’m honest, I don’t publish anything that’s higher than a sixth grade reading level.

John Jantsch (02:51.182)

Yes.

Jay Papasan (03:08.544)

because we want the widest possible audience to find it accessible and it’s not work to read. And then I do think that we got a little bit of timing. That would be the other big one. We showed up, our book showed up right when smartphones were really everywhere. Our kids had them, they had them in schools and we had so many opportunities to connect and also obligations to do. People didn’t know how to sort through their priorities. And here we are with the book called The One Thing.

John Jantsch (03:13.827)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:37.613)

Yes.

Jay Papasan (03:37.76)

which kind of promised we can kind of help you simplify and focus.

John Jantsch (03:41.654)

Yeah. So a movie that shows up in the book early on of Jack Parlin’s kind of the famous Curly character, say, what’s the secret of life? One thing. What, if any, that impact?

Jay Papasan (03:55.98)

And I think about him on stage at the Oscars, like at age 85 doing one-handed pushups too. Like that’s my memory of that guy. He was legit.

John Jantsch (04:01.11)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What if any role or impact did that have in your thinking?

Jay Papasan (04:11.08)

It was a sideways thing. Gary and I had come up with the idea of the book in 2008. We spent about four and a half years researching and writing it with the team. And we had never actually threw that in, in the mix. But when we were starting to get clued to the finish line and teach it and socialize it, everybody kept coming up and going, well, it’s this all came from city slickers, right? And we’re like, no. So we actually went back and very late in the process added it to the book because

John Jantsch (04:12.781)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (04:33.614)

Yeah

Jay Papasan (04:39.966)

It was just an expectation. If the book is called The One Thing, that movie was so big, everyone expected it to be connected, so we did. And it’s perfect. I I can’t believe that wasn’t the connection.

John Jantsch (04:41.816)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (04:48.418)

Yeah.

Yeah, so surely somebody has stopped you at some point and said, but Jay, what’s the one thing?

Jay Papasan (04:59.148)

All the time, right? And that’s honestly what we do in our training company. We do try to help people figure out what matters most. a friend of ours, Sean Blanc, he was sharing with me, like lot of times he works with busy entrepreneurs and he goes, they look up one day and realize that 93 % of their success comes down to two hours a week. It’s just hard to believe that that could be so important those two hours.

John Jantsch (05:02.006)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (05:29.036)

Thank

John Jantsch (05:29.474)

Yeah. You know, I wonder, I’ve often, in fact, I wrote about this years ago, so more than one dude, I guess. If somebody just said, look, I’m just going to start working 20 hours a week. That’s just all the time I got. Cause I got this other thing, whatever it is. Would they be any less productive? I wonder.

Jay Papasan (05:47.936)

think if they’re committed to a big goal, they’d be more productive. So like, I don’t know, I’ve written about the power of constraints and my wife launched her career just as soon as our youngest child was being dropped off for daycare. And she said, I will only sell between 9 a.m. and 2 p.m. because I’m going to be there for drop off and I’m going to be there for pickup. And she was rookie of the year and sold like 85 homes. And it’s not so much.

John Jantsch (05:51.095)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:12.344)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jay Papasan (06:16.18)

What she did, what she did is what all successful real estate salespeople do. It’s all the stuff that she chose not to do. She wasn’t hanging out at the water cooler. So I think of it like the day before vacation miracle, right? The day before vacation, you are a very productive individual and it’s not because of what you’re doing. You’re doing the right stuff. It’s you’re not doing any of the nonsense.

John Jantsch (06:23.192)

Yeah, right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:37.74)

Yeah, yeah. On April 14th, everybody has time to get their last minute tax preparation done, So what are some of the kind of common, especially in a book that is seemingly simple, it’s not a large book, 150 pages, something like that. What are some of the common misperceptions when people hear that this simple concept?

Jay Papasan (06:43.116)

Yeah, you got it.

Jay Papasan (07:03.444)

You know, when they hear the one thing, I think they think only one thing. And I think that really stops a lot of people in their tracks. I mean, maybe it sells a lot of books because they’re like, well, I want to know what that is. But the reality is we want people to understand it in a given moment, right? This week, this month, this hour, you should be clear about what your number one priority is. And so if you you pick up the US edition of the book, it’s white hardcover.

John Jantsch (07:05.698)

Yeah, right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:26.232)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (07:31.946)

We never put testimonials on the back. We never did any of the traditional stuff. We always had a question because we were very clear that what was the one thing we wanted people to do when they put down this book? We wanted them ask, like, what’s my one thing? And we wanted to make the book into a, like I’ve heard from people who flip the cover around on their bookshelf so that they were always staring at the question just to remind themselves, am I acting in my priorities or am I messing around right now?

John Jantsch (07:44.994)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (07:59.81)

So there’s a huge body of work talking about core values in a business and finding your why and your purpose. I’ve had a lot of people go through those exercises and, and, and end up saying, well, now what, what do I do with that? do you feel like you’ve sort of crossed that bridge?

Jay Papasan (08:12.993)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (08:18.888)

Yeah, I mean, when we were preparing to talk, like I shared, one of the things that since the book came out, I think I’ve gotten really good at is making decisions based on my core values. And core values isn’t actually in the book. We talk about purpose. And I’ve taught the book, I don’t know, four or 500 times now, corporate and private audiences. And everybody kind of struggles with this idea of what’s my purpose, what’s my mission. And a lot of times they’ll pull together a statement

John Jantsch (08:32.398)

Yeah, yeah.

Jay Papasan (08:47.616)

that doesn’t feel wholly authentic because it’s too weighty. I’ve found that core values is a gateway drug and I could give you the long story, but I won’t. What we teach people to do is identify what are your top three core values. And when you have a big decision, it should be a nine out of 10 on all three if possible, but certainly on number one. And mine are impact, family and abundance.

John Jantsch (08:49.816)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jay Papasan (09:11.872)

And we teach people like, I know what family means. It’s not just my immediate family. It’s my friends and partners. It’s the people I treat like family. And I mean, I actually got some of this from a fellow named Stu McLaren, who’s big in our space. He sold his first business because of this realization from reading our book and essentialism. So if you see my phone and I’ll hold it up for the people watching, I’ve got my core values as my screen saver.

John Jantsch (09:19.96)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (09:37.986)

Mm-hmm.

Jay Papasan (09:39.732)

I’ve read that you see your phone screen 87 times a day. I’ve got them on my one page goal sheet. I’ve got them front and center with my coach. So what I’ve tried to do is make it impossible for me to forget the things I’ve decided are important to me so that I can try to let my decisions be informed by them. But how do we make it practical? Is it a nine out of 10?

John Jantsch (10:03.928)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jay Papasan (10:06.09)

Or is it a five out of 10? Like that should tell you something. That’s not a heck yes, that’s a heck no.

John Jantsch (10:12.672)

So I’m sure that in your teaching, somebody says, okay, here’s the process, or you teach, here’s the process for identifying your one thing in a sea of competing priorities. Is there a process?

Jay Papasan (10:29.142)

There is. what I thought, I was worried. Gary, you know, he’s the self-made billionaire. He was the coach of all the top people in our industry for so long. He had more faith in it than I did because he’d lived it longer. But when someone asked the focusing question, what’s the one thing I can do such that by doing it, everything else will be easier, unnecessary? It’s a mouthful, but it’s a big question. I even asked him, I said, what if people don’t know the answer? He goes, you might be surprised.

John Jantsch (10:30.094)

Jay Papasan (10:58.342)

And having taught this to probably 10,000 people, I’ll tell you 98 % of people know what their one thing is, and they just are too busy to stop to ask the question. And usually they’ll tell you they feel guilty for not doing it. They’re walking around with a bad case of the shoulds. I know I should be doing this. I know I should be doing this. What they don’t have is a framework for them to live their intentions. And so we tried to help them have a simple framework.

for identifying that thing, which most people can, but then how do I put it on my calendar and live my schedule?

John Jantsch (11:32.366)

Yeah. Yeah. So, so that gets us to habits. This is a lot about habits, right? Because I think, I think a lot of times people can have a, they can go to a weekend workshop or whatever, have the aha, you know, but just like everything, if I say I’m going to lose weight, well, there’s some habits I’m going to have to change or develop, right? So what have you found have been the habits that people need to change or develop to really bring this to life?

Jay Papasan (11:49.707)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (11:57.878)

So in our research, we discovered that as near as we can tell factually, takes 66 days on average to form a habit. That was a discovery because we walked into it thinking it was 21 or 30 days. And so it takes longer than people think. But we’ve done, actually trademarked 66 day challenge just for the fun of it. And every year we lead three or four cohorts. So I’ve actually got good data on the habits that people have found most impactful. So I’ll share with you.

John Jantsch (12:21.57)

Huh. Yeah.

Jay Papasan (12:27.306)

I’m writing about it in a few weeks, but I’ll give you the sneak peek. The most impactful habit we ever did as a group cohort was getting people to look at their goals before they picked up their phone. And I underestimated it, I’ll be honest. But when you know what you’ve actually said yes to, it becomes a lot easier to say no to everything else. And almost everyone you know and I know, within 10 minutes of getting up, they’re on their phone.

John Jantsch (12:39.458)

Mm.

John Jantsch (12:50.21)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (12:56.707)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (12:57.236)

and they’re usually on social media, email or text. And those are places that other people’s priorities live. And so we had the highest reported overall halo effect when people just took five minutes in the morning to look at their goals before they went about their business. They did more work, they did it earlier, they were more focused, less distracted, like weird stuff, like fewer dirty dishes. So…

John Jantsch (13:22.626)

Jay Papasan (13:23.584)

There you go. I mean, I could go through habit after habit that has impacted me, but in terms of the ones that we’ve measured, that’s been by far the most successful.

John Jantsch (13:32.674)

Yeah. And I think it makes a ton of sense because especially, well, anybody, but I’ve been an entrepreneur all my life. So I’ll use my example. mean, we just, from the minute you get in front of your computer, you’re pulled in a thousand directions. it feels like, and so you’re right, just the simple habit of reminding yourself, yeah, I said I was going to do that. is, is so I could see the power.

Jay Papasan (13:45.632)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (13:55.318)

think I heard John Maxwell say this, so this is not a J original. He just said, some yeses are bigger than others. When you said, do, you knew that you were saying no to everybody else. And he’s like, I just remember thinking, wow, we need more clear yeses in our life so that we can say no.

John Jantsch (13:58.285)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:06.636)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:15.414)

So obviously this concept applies to any human being, right? Any individual. But what have you seen the impact it’s made on business leaders in kind of growing or scaling or changing their company, making it more sustainable, all those kinds of goals?

Jay Papasan (14:32.776)

There’s been a couple of things I’ve seen in sales teams. What I’ve seen them do is instead of going big goals, big action, they’ve actually gotten a little bit clear about being a little bit more precise about what they’re going to do to hit the goal. So they tend to do fewer things at a higher level. And one team, I remember at a huge biomedical company went from the bottom quartile to the top three in two quarters, and they focused on one product and one customer.

And they just used the book and they just said, how simple can we make it? And the challenge why people don’t like to do that is that when there’s complexity, people have places to hide. If you say you’re just going to do one thing, it’s yes or no, did you do it? And that’s a huge amount of accountability. So one, I’ve found people grow their revenue by simplifying their sales funnels hugely. And the other one from a team is

John Jantsch (15:11.681)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:15.372)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:24.248)

Yes, yes, yes.

Jay Papasan (15:27.574)

We teach people to do a very simple business plan. Everything’s on one page and it’s got to be like 12 point type, no cheating. And if it’s that simple, like one goal, three big initiatives, everybody kind of knows what their role is. And so we found two things like the power of focus and the power of clarity in business are very underrated.

John Jantsch (15:50.734)

100%. Do you find, I know you probably have worked with people that have been very successful that get at some point get to a place where they’re like, okay, I’ve done a lot of things. What’s next? So is that then a different reframing of the one thing or is it just a, okay, I just need to sit down and re-strategize.

Jay Papasan (16:12.652)

I think that we have seasons in our life. I do think that, you know, I know that something I read about millennials say that they’ll have as many as like 14 careers in their life. And I’ve been at the same place for 24 years and my dad was at the same place for 25. Gary’s been doing the same thing for 45. But if I actually step back, I’ve gone through phases about every seven years. And the one constant for me has been books.

John Jantsch (16:24.257)

just look at LinkedIn. It’s crazy.

John Jantsch (16:37.048)

Yeah, yeah.

Jay Papasan (16:41.568)

That has been the through line of my life. So there is a theme, but what I’ve been doing around it has evolved and changed. So I’m open to that. Like, I don’t think that just because that’s your one thing that you’re a prisoner to it. But what I do find is that if you can make peace with the boredom of success, which most people struggle with, their one thing will open up so many doors to things they didn’t expect. So I don’t know. Like I don’t.

John Jantsch (16:55.096)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (17:08.81)

I think that we can always ask the question, has my one thing changed?

John Jantsch (17:12.238)

Yeah. Well, the world’s changed around us, right? Every, every five years. So we better be at least checking in, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So, I know you have the, read it in the bio, the name of it, let me get it right. The one thing training company. do people show, is that something that people buy from you custom or do you have routine? Like I can show up and we’ll do this three day thing. How does that work?

Jay Papasan (17:14.634)

Yeah!

Jay Papasan (17:17.992)

Nimble. Yeah with AI and everything like now, especially as writers. I my goodness

Jay Papasan (17:41.066)

You know, it’s evolving. When I took over, think we had 24 SKUs. And I remember sitting down at a mastermind and someone said, dude, your first job is to one thing, you’re one thing business. I was like, yeah, I heard you. and we’ve simplified and now we have basically one model for like what people come to us for is I want to either run my life or my business using these principles. So I worked with our head coach, got named Jordan Fried. He’s been my coach for the last few years. We built out our training program.

John Jantsch (17:45.738)

huh.

John Jantsch (17:51.026)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:03.651)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (18:10.624)

Here’s where we start, here’s where we finish, and here’s how we keep going. And we now just kind of offer that in different formats. Do you want to do a group coaching model? Do you want us to come to your company and teach it? Do you want us to do one-on-one coaching? Right? We have different ways we deliver fundamentally our one thing process. It’s a little different for big businesses. We have some Fortune 50 companies, and there’s a lot more rules with them, that’s for sure. But we do…

John Jantsch (18:31.48)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:39.074)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (18:40.32)

We fundamentally today teach people how to lead themselves and lead their teams using these principles and we offer it in different mediums. That would be the simplest way I could explain it. And we just get leads on the website. Right now we don’t even do cold outreach.

John Jantsch (18:57.73)

How much of a competitive advantage or competitive asset do you believe the one thing is for Keller Williams?

Jay Papasan (19:07.35)

We’ve got two signature books. So what’s weird, the one thing has sold 3.6 million copies in all editions now. It’ll be 3.7 in the next few months. Our first book we co-wrote together and we published it in 2003, it was called The Millionaire Real Estate Agent. That sold 1.6. In an industry at that time of about 800,000, today it’s over a million. Both of them are perennial.

John Jantsch (19:33.157)

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (19:37.106)

sellers. They’re not always on the bestseller list anymore. But I do believe when people say, look up and say, you wrote the book on X, it provides a certain amount of thought leadership. It’s very hard to measure. You know this with PR and marketing, but the exposure, I have to think every time someone walked through an airport, they saw Gary Keller’s name on a bestselling book that has to provide a certain amount of authority. And I can tell you, I talked to

John Jantsch (19:52.568)

Sure, sure.

Jay Papasan (20:05.696)

the people who run our franchises, and I just always ask the question, how many of you had someone show up to join your team without you recruiting them because they read a book? And there’s usually always about 10 % of the room will raise their hands. So it attracts talent, it provides thought leadership. I can’t measure it, but I know that we grew about 40 % year over year for six years after the first book came out.

John Jantsch (20:17.826)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:31.468)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think there’s no question. There’s some attribution there. Well, Jay, I. Yeah, no, no question. Absolutely. I mean, I have a similar story when my first book came out. No question. Again, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Ductate Marketing podcast. mean, it’s really amazing to that you think of the legacy that this book certainly is created for you and.

Jay Papasan (20:36.032)

I think it’s a great reason for business people to write books.

Yeah.

Jay Papasan (20:59.85)

It’s funny. I feel the same way about you. Like you’re on like my special shelf with Al Ries and Trout and Seth Godin. Like you’re in the hallowed halls of marketing writers for me. So I’m kind of sitting here and thinking, wow, I’m so lucky to be on your podcast. So thank you for having me. I’m serious about that.

John Jantsch (21:06.958)

You

John Jantsch (21:14.414)

Well, I appreciate that, Jay. And again, I appreciate you taking a few moments and hopefully we’ll run into you again soon one of these days out there on the road.

Jay Papasan (21:24.566)

can’t wait.

Top 10 Duct Tape Marketing Podcast Episodes of 2024

Top 10 Duct Tape Marketing Podcast Episodes of 2024 written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

As we wrap up 2024, I can’t help but look back at all the incredible conversations I had on the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast this year. Marketing is changing faster than ever, and small businesses have been riding the wave—adapting to new trends, embracing tech, and finding fresh ways to connect with their customers. This year has been all about staying creative, staying connected, and making things happen, and I’ve had the privilege of digging into all of that with some amazing guests.

I thought it’d be fun to round up the episodes that really hit home with listeners this year. These were the top podcast episodes of 2024 that brought the most value, sparked the best ideas, and inspired action. If you missed any, now’s the perfect time to tune in!

If you enjoyed what you heard here, check out the full line-up of shows.

1. Stephan Spencer-Mastering SEO in the Age of AI

Stephan Spencer is an SEO pro, founder of Net Concepts, and host of the podcasts Get Yourself Optimized and Marketing Speak. In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, Spencer and I dig into how AI is changing the game for SEO and what you can do to keep up.

Biggest takeaway:

SEO in 2024 is all about adapting to AI. Spencer shares how to use AI tools to create better content, optimize your site, and stay ahead of the competition. Whether you’re an SEO veteran or just trying to boost your online presence, his advice will help you navigate this evolving landscape and set your business up for success.

2. John Jantsch – Unlocking the Secrets to Premium Pricing in Professional Services

Pricing professional services can feel tricky—unlike products, services are intangible, and their value can vary from client to client. In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I dive into the strategies that help businesses charge premium prices by focusing on solutions instead of just selling services.

Biggest takeaway:

It all starts with messaging. To charge a premium, you need to clearly communicate the problem you solve and show clients you truly understand their challenges. From there, it’s about standing out with a unique approach, building trust through personalization, and offering productized packages that make your services easy to understand and buy.

I also explore how to create long-term relationships and shift to a scalable, recurring revenue model by delivering consistent value to specific clients.

3. Seth Godin – How to Build Game-Changing Strategy by Choosing Your Customers and Competition

I had the pleasure of chatting with Marketing Hall of Famer and longtime friend of the show, Seth Godin, on this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Godin, known for his groundbreaking ideas on marketing and entrepreneurship, joined me to dive into my favorite topic—strategy. We explored how both businesses and individuals can rethink their strategic approach for greater success, drawing from his latest book, This Is Strategy: Make Better Plans.

Biggest takeaway:

Strategy isn’t just a step-by-step plan—it’s a philosophy of becoming. Godin explains how understanding systems, intentionally choosing your customers and competitors, and approaching strategy with empathy can transform how you operate.

In our conversation, Godin challenges conventional ideas, emphasizing the role of empathy—not just kindness—in decision-making. By truly understanding your customers and the systems they navigate, you can create stronger, longer-lasting connections. He also highlights the power of intentionally choosing who you serve and compete with, helping businesses escape commoditization and focus on delivering unique value.

4. Hortense le Gentil– Unlocking Your Leadership Potential

Hortense le Gentil is an executive leadership coach, speaker, and author with over 30 years of experience helping CEOs and senior executives become more authentic and empathetic leaders. In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, we explore what it takes to evolve from being a “hero” leader to a truly “human” one.

Biggest takeaway:

Great leadership isn’t about having all the answers—it’s about leading with authenticity, empathy, and vulnerability. Hortense shares practical tips for overcoming mental blocks, connecting with your team on a deeper level, and unlocking your full leadership potential.

If you’re looking to grow as a leader and inspire those around you, this episode is packed with insights to help you thrive in today’s fast-changing world.

5. Russell Henneberry –From Subscribers to Revenue: A Tactical Guide To Mastering Newsletters

Russell Henneberry is a digital marketing pro, speaker, and founder of The Clikk newsletter. In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, Henneberry and I talk about the power of email newsletters and how they’ve made a big comeback as a must-have tool for marketers.

Biggest takeaway:

Email newsletters are more than just a way to stay in touch—they’re a goldmine for driving revenue. Henneberry shares how to create newsletters that balance valuable content with smart calls to action, keeping your audience engaged while strategically guiding them to take the next step.

We also dive into ways to monetize newsletters, from ads and consulting to info products, and why focusing on metrics like open rates and subscriber quality is key to success.

6. Jay Baer – How to Navigate the New Era of Customer Expectations

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I had a fascinating conversation with Jay Baer, a business growth expert, customer experience researcher, and 7th-generation entrepreneur. Jay, the author of seven bestselling books and founder of six multi-million dollar companies, shares insights from his latest book, The Time to Win: How to Exceed Your Customers’ Need for Speed.

Biggest takeaway:

Jay’s research reveals that two-thirds of customers now value speed as much as price. Saving your customers time is a surefire way to earn their loyalty, while wasting their time can cost you financially. In today’s fast-paced world, speed and responsiveness are essential for delivering exceptional customer experiences and driving revenue growth.

Jay breaks down the six-part “Time to Win” framework, offering actionable strategies for prioritizing speed within your organization and securing a competitive edge.

7. Ryan Deiss – Crushing the Founder’s Curse: Unlocking Business Value Beyond Yourself

Ryan Deiss, founder of DigitalMarketer.com and a serial entrepreneur, joins me on the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast to share insights from his latest book, Get Scalable: The Operating System Your Business Needs to Run and Scale Without You. In this episode, we dive into strategies for overcoming the Founder’s Curse and creating a business that thrives beyond the founder’s involvement.

Biggest takeaway:

To truly scale your business, you need to break free from being indispensable. Ryan shares practical strategies for building value engines, establishing strategic rhythms, and creating high-output teams that can drive growth without constant founder oversight. He also discusses how to map value creation flows and implement effective meeting rhythms to keep your business running smoothly and sustainably.

8. Kate Bradley Chernis – How To Produce Better Content With Collaborative AI

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I had the pleasure of chatting with Kate Bradley Chernis, former rock and roll DJ turned founder and CEO of Lately AI. With over 20 years of experience in media and marketing, Kate shares her unique perspective on the evolution of content marketing and how AI is reshaping the industry.

Biggest takeaway:

Content marketing is evolving, and the key to success lies in blending human creativity with the power of AI. Kate shares actionable strategies for cutting through content clutter, crafting personalized social media messaging, and leveraging AI to boost engagement while navigating challenges like data privacy.

9. Amanda Holmes – Walking Billboards and QR Codes

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I had the pleasure of speaking with Amanda Holmes, CEO of Chet Holmes International. A true innovator in sales strategy, Amanda shares how she doubled her company’s sales by 1176% in her first year and dives deep into the transformative power of the Dream 100 strategy and other unconventional marketing tactics.

Biggest takeaway:

Amanda explains how the Dream 100 strategy, a proven method developed by her father while working with Charlie Munger, focuses on targeting a select group of high-value prospects to drive exponential growth. She also shares creative marketing approaches, like walking around trade shows with a four-foot billboard and strategically placed QR codes, to seamlessly blend offline and online efforts for maximum impact.

10. Andrew Guttormsen – How to Build Game-Changing Strategy by Choosing Your Customers and Competition

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I sat down with Andrew Guttormsen, co-founder of Circle, the all-in-one platform for professional creator communities and world-class brands. With experience as the former VP of Growth at Teachable, Andrew has a wealth of knowledge in courses, memberships, and building growth marketing teams. Together, we explored what makes platinum communities thrive, from onboarding excellence to long-term member retention.

Biggest takeaway:

A thriving online community goes beyond the platform—it’s about fostering engagement, delivering value, and retaining members for the long haul. Andrew shares how platinum communities, like Oprah’s on Circle, use signature gatherings, seamless onboarding, and consistent value delivery to build lasting connections and keep members invested.

We love reviews!

Is your favorite episode on the list? If not, we’d love to hear which one you enjoyed listening to the most!

For our podcast audience, we can’t thank you enough for your support over the years! If you like the show, click on over and subscribe and if you love the show give us a review on iTunes, please!

Building a $220M Empire: The Power of Training and Branding

Building a $220M Empire: The Power of Training and Branding written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Tommy Mello

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Tommy Mello, a visionary entrepreneur and founder of a $220 million home services business operating across 20 states. As the author of Elevate: Build a Business Where Everybody Wins and host of The Home Service Expert podcast, Tommy has dedicated his career to helping others achieve business success by focusing on recruiting top talent, optimizing branding strategies, and delivering exceptional customer experiences.

During our conversation, Tommy shared his journey of scaling a business from a small operation to an industry leader in the home services space. He emphasized the importance of investing in training, aligning core values, and leveraging performance pay systems to build a thriving team and long-term customer loyalty.

Key Takeaways:

Recruit Like You Market: Tommy treats recruiting like a marketing campaign, creating a continuous pipeline of A-plus talent. He focuses on identifying the right candidates by defining the ideal “avatar” for each role and using targeted ads to attract them.
Performance Pay Drives Results: Transitioning to performance-based pay not only motivates employees but also improves KPIs like booking rates, conversion rates, and customer satisfaction, driving both team and business success.
Branding is More Than a Logo: Tommy’s brand overhaul, including visually striking vehicle wraps and a unified brand voice across email, billboards, and yard signs, elevated his company’s visibility and customer trust.
Optimize the Call Center: A well-trained call center is critical. By focusing on empathy, responsiveness, and problem-solving, his team converts more leads into loyal customers, maximizing ROI on marketing investments.
Blue-Collar Jobs Are the Future: With skilled labor shortages increasing, Tommy sees a bright future for tradespeople, emphasizing the financial and personal rewards of working in the home services sector.

Chapters:

[00:00] Who is Tommy Mello?
[02:14] Optimizing Recruitment and Service Quality
[04:05] Branding Goes Beyond Your Logo
[07:26] Motivating Employees to Perform
[12:37] Recruiting vs. Creating A-Players
[15:52] Using Marketing to Recruit

More About Tommy Mello:

Check out Tommy Mello’s Website
Connect with Tommy Mello on Instagram
Read Elevate: Build a Business Where Everybody Wins by Tommy Mello

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.24)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Tommy Mello. He’s a driven entrepreneur who’s built a 220 million home services business with over 700 employees across 20 states. He’s also the founder of Home Service Expert, where he’s dedicated to helping fellow entrepreneurs achieve the same level of success. He’s also the host of a popular Home Service Expert podcast and the author of

Elevate, build a business where everybody wins. So Tommy, welcome to the show.

Tommy Mello (00:35.662)

Thank you. Really excited to be here.

John Jantsch (00:37.004)

So I got looking back at this, think this is at least your second appearance on the show. And I got looking back and the last time you were on the show, it was 2020. were in the throes of, or maybe just starting to come out of the pandemic. And the home services business was really kind of crazy at that point. A lot of folks were in turmoil. A lot of folks were really having trouble finding skilled labor. So.

Fast forward to 2024, what’s the state of the industry today?

Tommy Mello (01:08.962)

Never been better. You know, we were deemed essential during COVID. And the fact is, there’s always this teeter totter. You need more leads or you need more great people. I learned in 2017 how to build my own technicians. So right now we graduate from my training school right next door, about 50 technicians a month. But it’s kind of, I view recruiting like marketing.

John Jantsch (01:11.608)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (01:19.032)

Right.

Tommy Mello (01:36.506)

You got to really define who your avatar is and make sure it’s the right person because if you’re not converting leads getting the right reviews getting the right opportunity job averages You know people are always like I need more leads and I’m like well You must be booking every phone call. You must be converting every Booked call to a paid customer and they’re like, well, what do you mean? And I’m like, well your marketing dollars are going to waste because your call centers Not working out very well. Your technicians are not converting very well. You don’t have a rehash program. So

I’m kind of jumping around here a little bit, but the most important thing is you got the right people showing up to the right leads. And you should be ranking your leads and ranking the people showing up to the leads.

John Jantsch (02:11.202)

Okay.

John Jantsch (02:17.282)

Yeah. So, it’s interesting because I think a lot of business owners, doesn’t matter what industry, kind of think of hiring as an event. I need people. I’ll go out and hire some people. I’ll run some ads. I’ll hire some people. And the way you’re talking about it is more like we would think of traditional marketing. You’ve got to know who that ideal customer is. You’ve got to have the right message. You’ve got to constantly build pipeline to get those folks. And I think of a lot of businesses treated recruitment that way.

They’d find a lot more success rather than just always firefighting.

Tommy Mello (02:52.122)

Can tell you this What if I told you like I want you to the old Pareto 80-20 rule what I’d love people to do is look at their top 20 % I said what if they were able to multiply that by five so that what that means is They take the top 20 % of their working staff and either you got to train them up or out to get into that 20 percentile and Unfortunately when you’re a small business

John Jantsch (02:58.776)

Right, right.

John Jantsch (03:15.918)

Mm-hmm.

Tommy Mello (03:21.582)

like I was for a decade, longer than that actually. I didn’t know what good was. And you know what I used to tell people, John, I used to tell people, if you got a garage, you’re my client. And I’ve quickly, over the last, I’d say seven years, realized that not everybody with a garage door is my client. The people that are price shopping, you could only have three things. My dad taught me this. You could have the cheapest, the best quality, or on your timeline.

You can never give all three. It’s impossible to give all three. So I decided a decade ago, I’m not going to be the cheapest. I’m going get out there today when they need me the most and I’m going to do a quality job with a drug tested background, trustworthy person that can be alone with your wife and kids. And that’s what we’ve done. And I think to be the cheapest is a race to the bottom.

John Jantsch (04:11.726)

Yeah. You got to throw all that other stuff out. Right. So you, you talk about in your writing and, and when we talked before, you know, about kind of struggling a little bit before you kind of turned the corner and, and, you know, figured out how to really scale was that, there any, were there any kind of pivotal moments or pivotal things that really made you, you know, you feel like, you know, kind of made the light bulb come on and, know, really lead to success.

Tommy Mello (04:41.112)

Yeah, this right here, I know not everybody’s watching, but the way my trucks were branded, this was my original truck. It was just a white truck with stenciling on it. Then I got a better wrap that was pretty good. And then I got this one that’s absolutely phenomenal. And this other, the brand new wrap I got, and this had to be about five years ago. It was done by Dan Ancinelli from Kick Charge.

And it doesn’t have a lot of logos like the BBB and Yelp and Angie’s List on it. It doesn’t have anything. It doesn’t even have a phone number on it. It’s a billboard. People can only read five words as they’re driving by. So anybody that puts these 18 words on there and says, you know, call now to get your appointment and this QR code, they’re driving by. So once you get your brand dialed in and now my signature on my email looks like my catalog.

John Jantsch (05:10.02)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (05:33.626)

Looks like my website, looks like my yard signs, looks like my billboards. And then I’ve got a jingle that’s the same everywhere. So that was a big piece of it. I think people don’t understand a part of marketing is your brand. And brand is, you know, some people take them and they differentiate them a little bit, but I think it starts with your brand. And what is your core values and what do you stand for? What can you prove you’re known for? Like you can’t say I’m the best. You can say out of the last thousand jobs, 998.

Started on time and two of them got rectified within 48 hours and those are facts and your kpi should be driven towards the consumer Obviously your financial department’s going to have kpis like what’s your conversion rate and average ticket or what you know balancing income statement and all a lot of great Data about what’s good for us, but we need to start thinking about what’s good for our clients and The biggest thing i’ve Is most companies i’ve invested in most companies that i’ve coached

I find most of their opportunity in their call center, where their leads are coming into. My mom used to answer phones for me, John, and she, sometimes I felt like she was having phone sex. She’s never, I don’t think had phone sex, but she’d be like, my God, honey, I am so sorry. It was like crazy. She’d be like apologizing and empathy and just, honey, I am so, we’re gonna get this fixed. I’m gonna send out my best technician. This is like 15 years ago.

John Jantsch (07:01.624)

Tommy Mello (07:01.914)

I show up to these houses John and the people would give me a hug and they’d be like this is the best company I’ve ever talked to like Whoever that lady was she would never say she’s my mother, but she brag about me She’s I’m gonna send out our best technician this guy. He’s a handsome devil and shit, she never says she’s my mom and I show up and there was putty in my hands like the client would say whatever you guys say to do We’re gonna do it. We’ve never heard of anybody take a call like that

And so I think the contact center, there’s a lot of opportunities. And that’s operational, right? But marketing needs to go through all the way through to where I collect the cash. And even after I get the review and we do business to get in the future. And I think people miss that.

John Jantsch (07:45.604)

You know, I listen to you talk about, mean, obviously your mom was very invested in the success of the business, in your success personally. How do you get employees to feel like, I’m an essential part. mean, a lot of times people answer the phone, they’re like, hey, I’m just putting in my time. You know, I don’t get to see that profit necessarily. mean, you know, all the things people can delude themselves with. So how do you get people, you know, everybody bought in it? Cause I know that’s been a big part of what you’ve really preached.

in terms of really building a company culture.

Tommy Mello (08:19.514)

There’s a simple phrase called what’s in it for them. And I’m not into tenure. I’m not in an hourly pay. I’m in a performance pay. And if you set the guidelines and it’s fair and it’s distinguishable, meaning that it’s not based on somebody’s opinion, performance pay, what’ll happen? And I want to be very careful here for your listeners. If you switch to performance pay, you’ll probably lose 80 % of your staff because they’d like to get paid hourly.

They love to get paid, you know, come and do my job and be done. But when you come up with ways to say what’s in it for them, how can I have them win more? And look, everybody’s like, how do you even start that? Well, you just take your historical data. Like this person’s booking 62%. At first, you got to know KPIs and have data accuracy. There’s got to be some type of data compliance to make sure that it’s accurate. And see, if I got them up, like right now we’ll do 300 million, right, next year. For every percent we increase,

John Jantsch (09:14.328)

Mm-hmm.

Tommy Mello (09:16.346)

The booking rate, that’s $3 million of revenue to the company. At 20%, that’s an extra $600,000 to the EBITDA. And so I’m a mathematical guy, right? So I’m always doing math and coming up with formulas and saying, does this get the right behavior I’m shooting for? And if I share some of it with them, the company and, you know, I win really big, but I allow them to feel like they’re winning really big too in comparison. Because if you’re making $17 an hour, I can pay people $45 an hour.

and still be winning. And how easy is it, do you think, for me to recruit A-plus players when I can pay that much? It’s like taking candy from a baby. It’s like, why would he pay that much? Well, he’s getting people to set him up for success. And that’s so important. It’s just smiling on the phone and empathy and really caring. And you know, I heard this from a buddy of mine. He said, if you ever go to the Four Seasons, you’ll notice that they hire people that genuinely

John Jantsch (09:52.973)

Right.

Tommy Mello (10:16.238)

Genuinely do care like they don’t just say hey, how are you today sir? Nice to see you. See you later They say listen is there anything I can do to make your stay better I’ll tell you this I got to stay it for seasons and in the past They might tell you a story to say it was so magical for me and my family After that day I knew I wanted to work here and my goal is to make sure that this is the best experience you ever have to look you in the eyes They’ll walk you to the bathroom if you ask for a question

John Jantsch (10:17.763)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (10:43.108)

They’ll open up a restaurant that’s closed to make you something themselves that they have the opportunity to do that. And that’s what I think is that we talk so much about marketing, about making the phone ring. And I talk about stacking the deck on the other side by recruiting A plus people on your team.

John Jantsch (10:59.214)

Talk a little bit about that concept of recruiting versus creating, you know, A plus team. Obviously, if somebody is already a proven superstar salesperson, they’re, you’re going to pay for it, right? You know, to recruit them perhaps. Whereas I know you spend a lot of time and energy actually training and teaching and creating A players. Talk a little bit about that, the difference between those two ideas.

Tommy Mello (11:28.288)

I do think there’s certain things that look for I hire for personality. So I contact tonality. Can you tell a great story to you smile a lot when I take you and your wife or husband out to dinner. But I find that you guys get along well because if there’s problems at home there’s more likely going to be problems when you come to work because you’re trying to kind of put yourself out of a fire that you just got into at home. But what we do is we train train train train train we role play.

John Jantsch (11:32.664)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (11:50.532)

You

Tommy Mello (11:56.174)

And we just focus on these attributes of like believe in yourself. The first thing you need to do is believe in yourself. And that’s what eye contact tonality smiling is, is believing in yourself. And I’m not Starbucks. I can’t hire people to save them, to start looking through their lens differently. It’s so hard to do that. It takes years. It takes years. Sometimes people go into the military, very unorganized, come out very, very organized, but that takes sometimes four to eight years. So I try to find the right canvas.

And then I try to teach these things like the words we use. We never say, this is how much it costs. We say the investment would be this. It is an investment. It’s the number one ROI on your home. The number one investment more than your kitchens or bathrooms is your garage. Remodel magazine six years in a row, an unbiased third party. So we teach them the words to say, we monitor this. We’ve got systems that record the whole conversation in the garage with the client. That’s for the client’s best interest, but it’s also to coach.

We say kneel down when you’re doing when you’re presenting you don’t want to be above the customer because you make them feel inferior There’s a lot of things that we try to do and when I played football We did two a days we practiced ten times a week to play one game So in business, why shouldn’t we do the same thing or should we go after you train? You’re just gonna go practice on the customer’s house forever And I don’t know about you, but I like nice things that last I’ve gone with the cheapest

to fix my house when I did a remodel in 2012. I’ll never go at the best price again. Because I had to redo the roof after five years. I’m on my third AC unit. I just want the best. I don’t want to have to worry about it. think homeowners are smart. They’re like, you know what? What’s the… And what if you had a magic moment where you said, you know what I care about the most? I care that my kids could go to school. And I care that my wife makes it to work on time. Because that’s what we miss today.

So you called the best option. This is to keep the kids coming to school on time and make sure your wife gets to work. And there’s these magic moments and you title the estimates exactly what the client cares about. And you title it, this is the one that’ll give you the best investment for moving in five years and making sure you’re graduate or last. Because they say, I’m gonna move in five years. So you say, listen, we don’t need you to do the Taj Mahal. Out of the five options, let’s do number four.

John Jantsch (14:03.428)

you

John Jantsch (14:27.62)

I actually recently put in two new garage door openers and it’s been a while since I had replaced one and they’ve gotten a lot more technical. There’s a heck of lot of bells and whistles in those things. mean, the price range is, you know, three, four X. You you can buy the cheapest one to the Taj Mahal. It’s gotten a lot more sophisticated, hasn’t it?

Tommy Mello (14:51.352)

Yeah, now you know, that’s the deal. They got the my queue. The the opener’s got a brain. And the brain will tell you know we’ve we’ve worked out a pretty good opportunity with the manufacturer that will know if you got a problem before you do and will just come out. We guarantee one hour service that if something it’s got this thing called a force adjustment, so if it comes down on something or comes off track, will know about it. And.

John Jantsch (14:54.936)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:11.736)

Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy Mello (15:17.464)

That’s gotta be nice for you because before you know that you got a problem or showing up saying let us look at everything and make sure everything’s okay.

John Jantsch (15:24.324)

Yeah. My favorite attribute is I know when the door opens. And so, you know, I’ll be in here and I have my office in my house and my wife will go grocery shopping. I know it’s time to go down there and get the groceries out of the car. I don’t even have to hear it. Talk a little bit about skilled labor. mean, people, you know, people aren’t coming out of high school today thinking I want to go be a carpenter or, you know, whatever electrician.

Tommy Mello (15:38.36)

Yeah, that was great.

John Jantsch (15:53.39)

nearly enough, I think, to meet the demand. So what have you done to, really kind of shore up that you hire for, like you say, you know, personality or fit, but they still have to be able to install something. They still have to be able to fix something. What are you doing to kind of shore up that, that end of it?

Tommy Mello (16:11.874)

Well, we spend 12 % of our revenue on marketing, okay? So if we do 25 million, we’re spending a few million dollars a month in marketing. So we’re in Val Pak, all over website optimization, we, Clipper Magazine, the newspaper, PFP Deals, Angie, every lead aggregator out there, we’re on TV, radio, billboards. The idea is why not put the recruiting ad into some of these?

And say, at A1 Graduates, you’ve always known us for great service, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now we’re looking for more. You want to do two in one. You want to do the marketing and the recruiting in the same message. And then you want to have this massive funnel that chops, chops, chops, chops. Every time it chops down to this smaller amount, it’s refining, refining, refining, refining. Here’s what I do know. Artificial intelligence and robotics are not going to replace

Garage doors HVAC plumbing electrical roofing anytime soon. No one’s gonna come out with a robot and install windows But I’ll tell you what this camera stuff we’re working on the the drones and the different things They’re all gonna be AI AI is gonna fix everything left brain AI is like handling here soon Development coding everybody said hey go into coding go into coding. Well AI is gonna fit you’re not gonna have a job So these blue collar things that were shit on for a long time Like man, it was embarrassing if you were H a

John Jantsch (17:17.166)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:31.299)

You

Tommy Mello (17:39.194)

I do. a plumber. Now it’s like you’re beating your chair. You’re like, I’m a plumber, baby. It’s like our day. This is our time. And I think the word’s getting out there. Like the average plumber is 49 years old. And now you got this amazing amount of people going, look, I don’t think I was cut out to go to college and go into debt for $200,000 because I don’t really know if I want to go into economics or accounting. And I don’t know if my future, what the future holds there. So I do know that

John Jantsch (17:42.82)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (18:09.238)

No one’s going to be fixing anything on the home at least for a decade. I don’t think this robot’s going to be coming out and doing it for a while. So I think people are starting to understand that and they’re starting to say, I don’t want to go into debt. We pay to train you. You come to work for A1, you’re to get paid a very healthy living to get trained. then if you can’t make two grand a week, shame on you your first year. If you can’t make three grand a week on year two, shame on you.

We’re going to give you the tools. pay for the tools. We’re to give you a brand new van. We’re going to give you training. We’re going to give you role play. We’re going to make you, you know, we’re going to give you a flexible schedule. We’re going to make sure your wife and kids are bought in. It’s typically a man going out to do the work. We’ve hired over 20 female technicians. Unfortunately, it’s a harder job on the body than most realize, but it’s a really rewarding job. And I think the more we can share the stories, we’ve got a full-time dream manager. Their job is to help people dream.

John Jantsch (19:06.02)

Hmm.

Tommy Mello (19:09.21)

What do you want out of life? Do you want to go on that big vacation? Do you want to buy a home or a second home or a third home? What does that mean needs to happen? Well, it means these need to be your KPIs. And when I talk to you, I just say, listen, you ever you told me you want to take your kids to Disney World First Class, let’s skip all the lines. Do you realize if we just if you had a little bit higher conversion rate and I’ll show you exactly what you need to do to do that, that you would make that happen this year? So you talk about

What’s in it for them again? they don’t care that, hey, Tommy sits down with them and he wants to make more money to the bottom line and you’re gonna be on a performance improvement plan. No one cares about that. They care about like, what about me? What about my family? What about the people I care about? Like, I took a chance working for you. Why don’t you teach me more? But you gotta remind them. You gotta remind them about their why and what it means to their life in the future. And hopefully you’ll hire the right people that have plans. Because some people go through life

I just say I’m okay being mediocre.

John Jantsch (20:11.268)

Well, Tommy, run out of time, but I appreciate again, you stopping by. Very inspirational as always. I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. there some place you want to invite people to find out more about? I know you’ve got a variety of different interests and things you’re involved in, but what’s the best way for people to find out more about what you’re doing?

Tommy Mello (20:32.514)

Yeah, if you just go to Tommy mellow, there’s no w at the end of my name. So Tommy e l l o dot com. You see all my social media, my books, everything’s there. And if you go to Tommy mellow dot com for slash shop, you can do a shop tour. I don’t charge anything. If you ever get find yourself in Phoenix or want to come out here. It’s a great experience. It’s a way to pay it forward like everybody did for me when when I was coming up in the home service home improvement space.

It’s a way for me to brag on the team and it’s a way for me to help you because I do believe that if you help people it comes back tenfold. I think that Zig Zayler said you could have anything you want in life if you help enough people get what they want. And I’m a true believer of that. I really am. So if anybody needs anything reach out to me. I got 80 ways from Sunday to reach me. I’ve got a full-time team, a massive team these days that make sure that it gets that I’m aware of the comments and questions. So

I appreciate this podcast and I’m looking forward to having you on.

John Jantsch (21:34.583)

Likewise, we’re gonna record back to back today. again, thank you for taking a few moments to share with our audience and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Tommy Mello (21:44.42)

Sounds great, appreciate you.

Solving the Marketing Leadership Gap for Small Business

Solving the Marketing Leadership Gap for Small Business written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I tackle a critical topic that small businesses face today: the marketing leadership gap. Many small businesses struggle with disconnected marketing efforts, scattered strategies, and stagnant growth, not due to a lack of tactics but because they lack marketing leadership to tie it all together.

As we look ahead to the future of marketing in 2025, I dive into why traditional solutions—like hiring agencies or fractional CMOs—often fall short and what businesses must do to implement a long-term marketing strategy that drives sustainable business growth. This episode uncovers how a marketing system combined with leadership can transform small businesses into scalable, successful enterprises.

Key Takeaways:

Most small businesses fail at marketing not because of a lack of tools or tactics but because of a marketing leadership gap.
Strong marketing leadership ensures all efforts align with business goals and drive measurable growth.
Fix foundational issues first: improve messaging, optimize your website, and focus on building trust through content marketing.
Implement a repeatable marketing system that delivers consistent, long-term results.
Treat marketing as an asset, not a cost, to increase business value and make your company more attractive for future opportunities.
Marketing leadership as a service (e.g., fractional CMOs) offers small businesses and agencies an affordable way to gain strategic guidance.
AI can improve marketing execution but cannot replace the leadership and strategy required for success.
Agencies should shift their approach to think like architects of marketing systems, not just contractors executing tasks.
Businesses must focus on long-term marketing strategies instead of quick, disconnected efforts.
Closing the marketing leadership gap will help small businesses achieve sustainable business growth and success in 2025 and beyond.

Chapters:

[01:50] The Leadership Gap in Marketing
[02:57] Why Marketing Leadership Matters
[03:39] Steps to Fix Marketing Leadership Gap
[08:48] Marketing Leadership as a Service

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Nobody does data better than Oracle. Train your AI models at twice the speed and less than half of the cost of other clouds. If you want to do more and spend less, take a free test drive at Oracle.

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.04)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and no guest today. I am doing a solo show. Let’s call this Solving the Marketing Leadership Gap for Small Business. How’s that sound like for a lofty title? Now I could also, we’re ending, depending upon when you’re listening, we’re coming to the end of 2024. I could also title this what I think the future of marketing is, whether you’re an agency or whether you’re a small business owner trying to market your

business. Let me ask you this. Have ever felt your marketing stuck? Have you ever told your agency marketing stuck? Like it’s disconnected, it’s scattered, it’s not driving growth. Look, you’re not alone. I hear that every single day. So that’s what we’re going to talk about. Why I think that happens and what your business can do to fix it. We’re going to explore an issue. I’m not selling anything today. We’re going to explore an issue that I probably will be selling.

solutions more directly for, but I want to get, I want to dive into what I think is at the crux of where we’re going. There’s a lot. I’ve said this earlier in my, I did do a 2025 trends post and I’ve said this a lot. think 2025 is going to make 2020, the change of 2024 pale in comparison. I think we’re going to see so much change that happens with businesses and we’re already seeing it. I’m hearing from agencies.

and business owners saying, hey, something’s going on out there. I’m not getting the leads. I’m not getting the traffic to my website. So I think we’re going to see a big shift in the winners and the losers, if I can say it that way. So look, hopefully you’ve got some big goals for your business, but here’s the missing thing. You’re lacking internal marketing leadership to guide those goals.

Let me focus on that word again, leadership. You might have internal marketing, you might have internal marketing hires, you might have hired an agency that is doing amazing job with your marketing or some aspect of your marketing, but you’re lacking leadership. You’ve got a website, maybe you’re running some ads, posting on social media, but nothing feels very connected and you’re not really seeing the results, right? So the traditional solutions, I already talked about them. Hire an agency.

John Jantsch (02:27.416)

that’s probably going to be very focused on execution, hire full-time marketing leader, maybe a CMO or fractional CMO, maybe pretty expensive. Right. And then the DIY, which hopefully you’ve realized that’s a tough road, right? You don’t have the time. You don’t have the expertise. It’s probably taking you away from the things that really do matter in your business. If you’re going to move your business forward, I’m not saying marketing doesn’t matter. There just might be higher payoff things that you’re more suited.

to do. Most businesses fail at marketing because they lack not because they lack tactics, but they fail because they lack leadership really to tie it all together. And I think that that is been really a theme. Now I’ve, you know, for 30 years, certainly the 20 plus years I’ve been doing this podcast, I’ve been talking about strategy before tactics, and that is a big piece of it. But there’s also a leadership

component. I think you need somebody to take ownership of that strategy and sure that really every marketing effort aligns with your growth goals. It’s not about doing more. It’s about doing the right things in the right order. Number one, developing a marketing strategy, but then having somebody that is there to help you fix the foundational issues really to tie it all together to orchestrate it. A lot of times, you know, when we start working with somebody,

before we can really do much for them in terms of growth or even in brand is we have to get their messaging right. We have to actually, in most cases, redo their brochure website and turn it actually into a sales asset. We have to talk about content that is educational and trust building. And once we get through that foundation, then we need to actually build a repeatable marketing system. One that ensures you’re not just throwing money at the next new thing.

You’re building a machine that works long term. So that’s the component that I think marketing leadership brings. It’s not just somebody that says, this is what we ought to do. This is how we ought to price it. This is how we ought to talk about our products and services. That’s great to have that strategy, that component. But you also need somebody who is really then orchestrating on that. So breaking it down, you need the strategy first, right? Clear path, aligned goals, customer needs.

John Jantsch (04:54.82)

Identify what’s missing, what needs fixing. Then you need to have those foundational issues fixed. Then you need to build a system. And then you actually need to start thinking about marketing as an asset in your business. And by that, mean, you need to start hiring and training a team to take over and keep that system running. that’s, know, if you think about it, if you went out there and hired, you were at a point where you’re like, gosh, we need to take marketing seriously. We need to hire some marketing leadership.

we need to hire a marketing manager. We need to hire a marketing fractional CMO. Well, that person would come in and hopefully you develop a strategy and nine times out of 10 there, they’d say, okay, who are we going to get to do the work? Because I’m, I’m not writing the emails. That’s not my job. and so whether it’s going to be a third party or you’re going to actually bring somebody, in and hire and train those OREX or have your marketing leader hire and train those folks. that’s really what I think the

I think that the agency model today is just what I’m starting to call marketing leadership as a service. So that includes strategy development, foundation fixes, then installing that system and then training and handing off into your business somebody who can actually run that system. That’s the piece that’s really been missing. know, people have either hired somebody one off, didn’t really know what to tell them to do. They got a little result, but it seemed

seem like they weren’t getting anything or they’ve hired an agency. Same thing. Nobody was directing them. Or maybe they’ve hired somebody to come in and build a strategy, but then nobody to really execute that. So, marketing leadership, I believe, is the missing link for most small businesses. And I believe that agencies today, if you are an agency, a consultant, marketing strategist out there listening, this idea of selling marketing leadership

as a service, I hope actually set some bells off and in some cases alarm bells, because this is what the market needs. And I think that you’re going to find not only are people going to want it, they’re going to want to pay a premium or expect to pay a premium for that person who can bring leadership. AI cannot provide strategy. AI cannot provide leadership. Agencies need to start thinking like

John Jantsch (07:17.368)

architects as opposed to contractors don’t do the work. AI is actually going to do a lot of the specialized work. But that leadership component that is executing on a strategy that is building a marketing system, that’s what’s missing. And I’ve been saying marketing is a system, as I said, for 25 years. However, we’re really getting to the point where that’s a very tangible idea. For a lot of folks,

It’s still even though they agreed with me marketing is a system It felt like a vague idea because really what you were doing was plugging people in to do things And it felt very much like traditional marketing but I believe that we are on the crux of or the what’s a better way to say that the precipice. that’s a good word precipice of This idea that we can in fact finally install a marketing system

in a business because of AI and because we are taking this idea as marketing leadership, as a service, as the missing ingredient. So next time you feel like your marketing isn’t working, ask yourself, do I have any leadership? Do I have a system in place to make it work? If not, that’s the first thing you need to fix. But if this conversation resonated with you, stay tuned. We are going to in 2025.

have a very set step one, step two, step three, step four, that really focuses on positioning what we do as bringing this to small midsize businesses. So stay tuned. If you like this idea, if you’re an agency consultant, if you’re a business owner and you like this idea, just reach out to John at ducttapemarketing.com and tell me you like the idea, you want to hear more. And I will tell you how we can actually build marketing as an asset in your business, not

as a cost, not as an expense in your business. It actually can be something that will make your business more valuable, not just because you’ll grow revenue and get more customers, because you’ll be able to show somebody. Let’s say you want to exit your business, you’ll be able to show somebody here’s how our marketing system works. And that can be one of the most valuable things you can do in your business. So take care. If you’re listening to this post 2025, have a happy new year.

John Jantsch (09:41.372)

Happy end of the year and let’s make 2025 rock. Hopefully we’ll see you one of these days out there on the road.

How the Right Creators Can Transform Your B2B Marketing

How the Right Creators Can Transform Your B2B Marketing written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Nick Bennett

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Nick Bennett, a pioneering expert in B2B influencer marketing who’s reshaping how companies approach digital marketing strategies. As a co-founder of TACK and author of B2B Influencer Marketing: Work With Creators to Generate Authentic and Effective Marketing, Bennett reveals the transformative power of authentic creator partnerships in today’s competitive business landscape.

The conversation uncovers a critical shift in B2B marketing: moving from traditional, corporate-driven approaches to a more human-centric, creator-powered strategy that drives real business results. Bennett’s insights demonstrate how the right creators can become powerful catalysts for brand awareness, lead generation, and revenue growth.

Key Takeaways:

Micro-Influencers Matter: The sweet spot for B2B influencers is 10,000 to 50,000 followers
Authentic Partnerships Are Everything: Partnerships should be collaborative, not transactional
Strategic Influencer Marketing Drives Real Results: Integrate influencer strategies into broader marketing efforts
The Creator Economy is Transforming B2B Marketing: Leverage subject matter experts who have credible industry voice
Technology Enables Smarter Influencer Strategies: Focus on mastering AI tools rather than fearing them

Chapters:

[01:02] Who is Nick Bennett?
[01:40] Defining Influencer Marketing in B2B vs B2C
[03:51] Best Practices for B2B Marketing and Influencer Integration
[06:48] Challenges and Misconceptions in B2B Influencer Marketing
[08:48] Successful Product Launch with Influencer Program
[11:34] Effectiveness and Authenticity in Influencer Partnerships
[15:23] Navigating Global Influencer Marketing
[18:47] Niche Focus and Controversial Content for Engagement

More About Nick Bennett:

Check out Nick Bennett’s Website
Connect with Nick Bennett on LinkedIn
Read B2B Influencer Marketing: Work With Creators to Generate Authentic and Effective Marketing by Nick Bennett

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Nobody does data better than Oracle. Train your AI models at twice the speed and less than half of the cost of other clouds. If you want to do more and spend less, take a free test drive at Oracle.

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.17)

Welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Nick Bennett. He’s a co-founder of TACK, a media network and go-to-market firm, helping businesses convert demand into revenue through their people-first GTM model. With over a decade of experience in B2B tech industry, Nick specializes in crafting innovative go-to-market strategies. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today.

John Jantsch (00:28.25)

B2B influencer marketing, work with creators to generate authentic and effective marketing. So, Nick, welcome to the show.

Nick Bennett (00:36.198)

Thank you so much for having me. Excited to be here.

John Jantsch (00:38.69)

So let’s define influencer marketing. I suspect that people would have different definitions of what that means or perceptions of what that is. How do you describe it when you tell somebody about your book and they say, what’s influencer marketing?

Nick Bennett (00:42.748)

Nick Bennett (00:53.2)

Yeah, so I think in B2B, it’s a little bit different than B2C. I think that’s the first thing that we have to tackle. But in B2B specifically, I think an influencer is someone who holds authority or credibility within a specific industry. So they could be a subject matter expert, they could be a creator, they could be a practitioner. There are people who share valuable insights. They have a loyal, engaged following of an audience on different social media platforms.

John Jantsch (00:56.474)

Yes. Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:19.302)

So I think a lot of people, especially when you talk about in the B2C world, naturally think of Peyton Manning, Kim Kardashian, I don’t know, some of the folks that show up that way. But really, I’m guessing in the B2B space, it might be somebody you’ve never heard of, but 1,000 people think that he or she knows everything. mean, is that kind of micro audience pretty significant?

Nick Bennett (01:43.484)

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that’s the big thing in B2B. It’s not the million person follower counts that matter. It’s that kind of like 10,000 to 50,000 follower range. That is like the sweet spot in B2B.

John Jantsch (01:58.19)

In fact, would you go as far as saying, I know this is a blanket statement, so there’s holes in it, but would you go as far as saying that traditional celebrity endorsements really are not going to work in B2B?

Nick Bennett (02:10.414)

absolutely. I’ve

Nick Bennett (02:11.554)

seen B2B companies try to specifically at events and it just hasn’t worked, which is why I think so many people are turning to working with creators. And I should mention there is a difference between creators and influences. So everyone can become a creator. You and I are both creators, but not every creator has influence. in B2B, you shouldn’t self-dub yourself in influence. So just like B2C, people can do that because it’s just what is known, but there’s such a misunderstanding of

Nick Bennett (02:38.714)

what a creator and what an influencer is in B2B. And that’s everything that I’ve been trying to battle for the last couple of years.

John Jantsch (02:45.744)

Yeah, it’s really more than to get somebody excited. Like you bring to your CMO, we need to do influencer marketing in all sense. Like, no, you know, that’s not for us, right?

Nick Bennett (02:54.908)

Exactly.

John Jantsch (02:57.327)

So what are some of the best practices or strategies that B2B marketers should employ?

Nick Bennett (03:02.362)

Yeah, well, I think it’s figuring out what are the outcomes that you want to achieve. And so when you think about, know, hey, I’m going to deploy this as a tactic because it’s interesting. Creators and influencers can be used as its own channel, but it can also be used as a tactic within other channels that you’re already running, like events and social and things like that. So I think it’s understanding what are, what does success mean for us?

Nick Bennett (03:29.742)

in aligning your goals around that. So when I think of like, what are the core KPIs of what success actually means, it could be engagement metrics. So again, if you’re going to go on LinkedIn, for example, and partner with people to drive brand awareness, you care about the likes, the comments, the shares, how many people are driving traffic to my website. If you care about reaching impressions, hey, I’m trying to get into manufacturing, tech for manufacturing. It’s like, I care about

Nick Bennett (03:58.588)

the size of the audience reach within that specific industry. Then you’ve got the lead gen side, which is like, all right, number of inquiries, signups, pipeline growth. Like you could use that for a PLG motion. And then revenue impact. Are you directly or influencing sales as someone that is promoting a service? Cause it’s not like B2C where it’s like, Hey, go buy this, you know, $20 hair straightener. It’s, Hey,

Nick Bennett (04:22.298)

you don’t go buy this $50,000 piece of tech that you’re going to use in your stack. It’s a big difference. And so a lot of people, unfortunately, are promoting stuff and they’re not using it. And so you build trust with your audience and then you promote stuff and they believe you. And it just leaves a lot of people disappointed. So when I look to partner with brands or I’m working to build programs,

Nick Bennett (04:46.3)

you have to use the product. I’m not saying you have to use it for years, but you can’t just go into a partnership without using the product.

John Jantsch (04:54.064)

So you mentioned different metrics, so there would be different objectives possibly, right? I mean, somebody might want to create awareness. like, I’m going to sponsor this podcast so people start hearing about us. Or I’m going to sponsor this techie webinar because I want to create demand. mean, would that be a true statement?

Nick Bennett (05:16.056)

Absolutely. And I think it’s a great way when you can figure out, multiple, it’s, you don’t want to silo things. So when you can make it part of a larger part of your integrated strategy, makes sense. I’ll give you good example of that. I had an old podcast called the anonymous market and it’s no longer going, but Google actually used to sponsor that podcast. And I was like, all right, why would Google want to sponsor my podcast? You know, it’s, it was Google cloud and we ended up integrating it into a lot of different pieces. So there was the podcast, there was the social media aspect.

John Jantsch (05:39.12)

Yeah.

Nick Bennett (05:45.808)

There was actually webinars. So it was a much more than like, hey, we just want to sponsor the podcast to get more awareness out there. Like they don’t need the awareness. They were trying to tap into specific audiences in certain parts of the, the U S actually.

John Jantsch (06:00.048)

Yeah, yeah. So what have you found are some of the challenges or limitations of B2B? So we talked a little bit about best practices, but what are some of the realities in some of the limitations for B2B companies?

Nick Bennett (06:15.3)

I think a lot of people just still don’t know how this works or how that you should be operating or building a program from this. Like so, so often I talk to CMOs and founders and they’re like, I want to do influence of marketing. And I’m just like, okay, like, what do you want to do? And they’re just like, I don’t know. I want to do a LinkedIn post. Now the issue is you’re going to go partner with say five people, do a LinkedIn post. You’re going to get some hype that, that day. Maybe you’re launching on product taunts or you’re doing new product, whatever it is. The issue is.

Nick Bennett (06:43.77)

a lot of brands don’t do anything with that content after they have that lightning strike for that one day. And then everything goes away because just like, just like real life social media, like all that stuff disappears in about 24 hours. And so then what, and I think that’s the biggest issue is so many CMOs and marketing leaders are disappointed in their spend because they’re like, it’s not, it’s not impacting sales. It’s not impacting, you know, signups. And it’s just like, you can’t just do a one-off thing and think it’s going to change the world here. This is something that

Nick Bennett (07:13.402)

It has to become a program and it has to be bought in from the top down and be part of your integrated strategy.

John Jantsch (07:20.814)

Yeah, and really, you know, I’ve heard a lot of people talk about, know, especially in B2B, that you’re not looking at this as an endorsement. It’s more of a partnership, right?

Nick Bennett (07:29.436)

And you nailed that word partnership because that’s still what people still aren’t sure. just like, I want to do a one-off thing. It’s very transactional. And one of the things that I work on in championing it as well is people first. it’s like, okay, people first, the core of what people first actually means is partner driven, ecosystem driven. so creators and influencers play a big piece of that.

Nick Bennett (07:53.542)

But it’s still, there’s so much education that still has to be done because we’re very much in the early adopter phase, at least in tech for B2B.

John Jantsch (08:02.534)

So I’ll put you on the spot a little bit. Can you think of a, could you give an example of what, you know, what a typical successful campaign like this would look like? mean, pick whatever medium or you don’t have to even name names. You can even just kind of give us a, you know, a fake case study.

Nick Bennett (08:19.386)

Yeah, no, no, I have a real one I can use for sure. So we actually partnered with a company called Path Factory. They’re in the of kind of content repository world, but they were building an AI product, know, surprise, everyone’s building an AI product. And it was like an, exactly. And it was an AI chat bot. And so they were launching that, but they had to launch it.

John Jantsch (08:21.669)

Okay.

John Jantsch (08:34.086)

Even if they aren’t.

Nick Bennett (08:44.302)

literally in a two week window because they were acquiring another company and they needed like they needed this product to fit in here before they announced the acquisition of that company. So they came to us and one of the things they said, you hey, we need you to build the whole brand narrative positioning messaging, but we also want you to build an influencer program to be able to get the awareness out there because it was kind of like a PLG play. So it was part PLG, like they needed the signups, but they also needed the awareness piece of it.

John Jantsch (08:48.848)

Mm.

Nick Bennett (09:13.764)

And within a week, I was able to get them about 15 people. were like, listen, I have a $5,000 budget on what we can spend on paying these creators to create LinkedIn posts. was solely LinkedIn. And I went out, found these people, got their approval, built this entire program. We went live and it was one of their most successful launches that they’ve had. And it’s actually still going really, really well. And now they’ve actually adopted an entire.

Nick Bennett (09:39.63)

influencer program and they’re hiring an actual person to like manage this all for them now. But we did the whole thing in two weeks from like start to finish and it was like, I don’t recommend anyone do that. with what we had to do, I’m very happy with the results.

John Jantsch (09:48.688)

Yes.

John Jantsch (09:52.72)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (09:58.726)

So one of the challenges probably is fit, AT &T sponsored my, I’m just gonna say this, I’m gonna go out on a limb and say it, AT &T sponsored my podcast for about a year and I wasn’t really a fan of AT &T, frankly. I probably wasn’t a great fit. I mean, I didn’t do anything to tarnish the brand or anything, but I didn’t have any passion for it. How much of that do you believe needs to be there?

John Jantsch (10:28.518)

Does somebody need to be a champion or does somebody need to, or is it basically, if they’re going to pay me, I’ll say what they need me to say.

Nick Bennett (10:36.444)

Well, the issue is there’s so many people that are now under the mindset where, if they’re going to pay me, I didn’t realize I could get paid for this type of stuff, which is, which is hurting a lot of the original people that have been doing this like me and others. Exactly. And that’s the issue because then it’s, it’s false advertising because you don’t use the product. You’re promoting it. I’m going to go buy that. And then I’m going to be mad that, you know, Joe told me to go buy this and now it’s a terrible product, but

John Jantsch (10:44.024)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:48.624)

Yeah, they were just like, I love this product. You should see it. Right.

John Jantsch (11:01.168)

Right?

Nick Bennett (11:04.9)

In my mind, and what I tell everyone that I work with, and even in the book, it’s like, you have to believe in the mission. Maybe it’s not the mission of the company, but the mission of the category. Because if you’re not a believer of the category and what you’re looking to solve, then you’re never going to be bought into anything. And like I said, you have to use the product. Because as a marketer myself, I don’t partner with any brand where they won’t let me use the product. And I want to see how I can fit it into my regular life.

John Jantsch (11:28.974)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Nick Bennett (11:32.132)

I did just one recently with this company called Tango, small company, but they basically, what they do is they help you create, you know, SOPs for different. Yeah. And fantastic product. And so like, I started using it because I’m just a two person business and we have worked with a lot of contractors and I started to map out all these things. I was like, wow, this is fantastic. And I feel like it comes across so more human, so more authentic in the content that you create when you can actually use it.

John Jantsch (11:38.66)

Yeah, yeah, I’m familiar with it, yeah, Yep.

John Jantsch (11:58.192)

Yeah, yeah, no, I agree 100%. In the early days of influencer marketing, it was, know, people were used to controlling the message, right? And so in the early days, people were very freaked out by the fact that, somebody else is gonna, who’s not an employee is gonna talk about us and we’re gonna pay him. You know, how much risk or exposure, you know, do people still feel is a part of this?

Nick Bennett (12:07.1)

Thank

Nick Bennett (12:22.448)

I don’t think there’s much anymore. Every brand that I’ve worked with and talked to, they have ultimately write a refusal on like, does the content go live or not? But they are lessening the guardrails and they say, listen, I want you to bring your creative freedom. That’s why we’re paying to work with you. We don’t wanna dictate what you should write because that’s not human. so every…

Nick Bennett (12:46.384)

I’m working on one right now where I’m going through and I’m kind of thinking about it and I sent it to the brand and they were like, well, we want you to spin it more like this. And I was just like, no, that’s not how this works because you’re trying to dictate my point of view, which is that that’s not how I feel. And so we actually ended up ending the partnership because they were trying to put words in my mouth a little bit and I didn’t want those words to come out.

John Jantsch (13:05.851)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:10.01)

Yeah. Yeah. I personally, we do a lot of sponsors on this show and I personally like it when a brand says, here’s the talking points, but we want you to say it like you would say it as opposed to read this script. I, and personally, I know for a fact, comes off more authentic when I just make it up. Yeah. Yeah.

Nick Bennett (13:29.756)

100%. I’m the same way. I feel like

Nick Bennett (13:31.787)

it’s it’s so much more conversational versus like, you robotic. It’s like, it’s just like, you know, AI has made content creation so easy today. It’s so easy to spot on social media what’s written with AI and not. So we don’t, we don’t need that when people are, you know, doing podcasts, webinars, things like that.

John Jantsch (13:44.358)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:50.372)

Yeah. Yeah. Especially the comments on LinkedIn. Those are painful. What about the international market? I know that, you again, sometimes, you know, you’re in your little bubble, you know, who the people in your space are, you know, you start going out globally. How do you find those? How do you connect? You know, maybe in some cases, you know, you’ve got obviously language, you know, issues or not issues, but challenges. So how, you know, how do you, how do brands kind of

Nick Bennett (13:52.86)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:20.154)

manage that if that’s goal.

Nick Bennett (14:23.534)

Yeah, I think it’s something they’re still trying to figure out. There’s one brand in particular called Cognizm. They’re like a data provider in the UK, and they do influencer marketing really, really well. They’ve been doing it for like seven years. Fantastic job. They have an entire program. But they were running into a similar issue where they were like, it’s hard to find people globally if you’re based in another part of the world. And it’s just like, what if you know…

John Jantsch (14:30.704)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Bennett (14:49.936)

The way I talk about something is not the same way that you talk about something. How do you get that to come across in a different tone? but marketplaces have made it really easy to, find people to partner with. And that was something that was always lacking in B2B and B2C. You could go find influencer marketing, you know, marketplaces like, Hey, I want to find someone that talks about AI and tech. Boom. Here’s a hundred people that I could go partner with through this platform. Now B2B hasn’t really had that up until about.

Nick Bennett (15:19.67)

six months or eight months ago. So many have tried, but they couldn’t figure out how to monetize that. And now a few brands have created these marketplaces where they play matchmaker. And they pair, regardless of where you are in the world, you with different types of creators based on the filters that you want. And I’ve been waiting for this for so long because outside of that, you just had to go on LinkedIn or X and find these people and just send them a cold message.

Nick Bennett (15:46.714)

And these platforms have made it a lot easier to facilitate the outreach, to facilitate the campaign actually happening, the reporting, all of that stuff.

John Jantsch (15:56.304)

So let’s flip it around a little bit. I’ve been talking mostly about how businesses would use this. But if I’m a content creator and I think, hey, I want to get in on this influencer action, how do I get myself identified as a potential influencer?

Nick Bennett (16:09.946)

You just got to show up every single day. So I’ve been creating LinkedIn on LinkedIn now for five years, every single day. think most I’ve taken a couple of weeks off over the last five years, mostly around the holidays or if I went on vacation, but I have showed up every single day and it’s repetition, it’s consistency. think that all pays off. Like you don’t have to have the biggest number of followers. I only have like 53,000 followers, but I have an engaged audience of people that actually care what I have to say.

John Jantsch (16:15.002)

Right. Yeah.

Nick Bennett (16:39.308)

And again, what I’ve said has changed over those five years. When I started five years ago, I was a field marketer. was an event marketer for early stage tech companies in-house doing my thing. And I would talk about that. Then I started talking about account-based marketing and customer marketing. And then about a year and a half ago, went out on my own with my partner, who was my former CMO at our last company. And now we champion everything around People First and the creator economy and things like that. But again,

Nick Bennett (17:07.312)

I’ve got to a point where it doesn’t matter what I write or what I have to say. There’s going to be people that support me. I could say the sky is blue and it’s going to be still people that support me even though that adds no value, but it’s because I’ve done it so consistently over the last five years.

John Jantsch (17:21.69)

Yeah, so you’ve got to move beyond hobby, amateur, to GoPro. Would you say that it’s probably useful to pick a niche or to pick a point of view or to pick a very specific topic so that you can, you you may not have a million followers, but for people who do X, you you’re it.

Nick Bennett (17:25.198)

Yes.

Nick Bennett (17:44.38)

It’s a loaded question because there’s going to be people that will debate both sides of it. I personally will say yes, because for me, as a field marketer and event marketer originally starting, that was my niche and it was so impactful the amount of DMs I got from people that was like, hey, I can relate. Thank you. Now, there is some people that say, you don’t need to just talk about whatever you want.

John Jantsch (17:48.42)

Yeah, yeah.

Nick Bennett (18:08.92)

It’s again, going back to AI, AI has made it so easy to create content. You’re not going to stand out if you just talk about random stuff and you’re just starting out. You have to have a strong POV and you have to stand for something. And if you don’t stand for something and cannot kind of add your own spin to it, you’re just going to get lost in all those other people that just, you know, throwing up posts every once in a while.

John Jantsch (18:29.54)

Yeah, yeah, there’s no question. mean, you, you, you see it all the time. The people who have the most reactions, positive and negative, you know, are saying stuff that’s kind of polarizing. Right.

Nick Bennett (18:39.324)

Yeah, it’s

Nick Bennett (18:40.524)

you know, there’s there’s this guy out there. You know, he’s he’s fantastic person Adam Robinson He’s the founder of our RB to be and he always puts controversial stuff on LinkedIn and like he’ll start like LinkedIn like Beefs with people it’s so so interesting. Like there’s so many like LinkedIn beefs now but like he is very controversial and like there’s people that will go off like negatively in his stuff and positive but

John Jantsch (18:55.493)

Yeah.

Nick Bennett (19:05.68)

He gets so much engagement on every single one of his posts because people know like, Adam’s gonna post something that is gonna like set some people off.

John Jantsch (19:14.842)

Yeah, that’s funny. I often sometimes this can come off as a lame question, but I often like to kind of wrap up interviews with talking about giving you an opportunity to talk about like what’s next? What’s coming? You know, for what’s the future look like?

Nick Bennett (19:28.764)

Yeah, you know, honestly, I should say, you know, I had no intention of ever writing a book when the publisher reached out and was like, hey, you want to write a book? This was a year and a half ago. And I was like, not really. And they convinced me to do it. And I missed so many deadlines. I have three small kids. I have a six year old and 19 month old twin girls. And so I was like,

John Jantsch (19:46.296)

wow.

Nick Bennett (19:50.148)

yeah, you know, I’ll do it. And then I missed multiple deadlines. They canceled the book on me twice. They’re like, you’re not taking this seriously enough. was like, well, hold on. I never wanted to write the book. You guys stepped on trying to push me to do this. And so finally, you know, we’re here and it’s out. like, I will never write another book, at least not like a published book, maybe self-published. they are like, are on you like hawks. And for me, like, you know, tack and just everything that we’re working on, like,

John Jantsch (19:58.798)

Yeah.

Nick Bennett (20:19.888)

I’ll continue to champion the creator economy, but like the broader umbrella of that is people first and how do we get people to think about the company first mindset, which was like the old school way of doing things and moving to more of a human way, which again, creators and influencers plays a huge piece in, but that’ll be everything that kind of, you at least for the next couple of years that I continue to push forward.

John Jantsch (20:43.408)

Well, and I think we’re, you know, I’ve been talking a lot about, think we’ve been, you know, we see change every year, but I think the pace of change increases every year. And I think AI has just thrown gasoline on that, certainly. And so I think that what you’re talking about is I think we’re going to see, I’ve been doing this 30 years, and I think we’re going to see a return to that, you know, people, I mean, that’s, you know, all the control is going to the buyer.

John Jantsch (21:11.59)

in the marketing world and I think that the human connection is going to be more important than ever.

Nick Bennett (21:17.18)

100%. Well, and one more piece to that is like, I’m not saying that you shouldn’t use AI. I use AI every day. Now, it’s going to be, know, so many people, marketers are afraid that AI is going to take their job. No, it’s going to be the marketers that learn how to master AI to use it to do the tasks that they don’t want to do. That’s who’s going to take your job.

John Jantsch (21:34.726)

That’s right.

John Jantsch (21:36.407)

Yeah, yeah. That’s what I tell people all the time. It’s not AI. It’s another marketer who’s just as strategic as you that’s using it. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Nick, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there somewhere you’d invite people to connect with you and find a copy of B2B Influencer Market?

Nick Bennett (21:38.48)

you

Nick Bennett (21:44.323)

Exactly.

Nick Bennett (21:57.338)

Yeah, connect with me on LinkedIn. I post a lot about it there. I have a bunch of links where you can find it on Amazon, Kogan Page, Barnes and Noble, all those websites. So find me on LinkedIn, DM me. Always happy to chat with new people and appreciate you having me.

John Jantsch (22:14.298)

You bet. Again, thanks for taking a few moments and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Nick Bennett (22:19.898)

Absolutely.