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John Jantsch (00:00.866)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Sara Nay. Sara is the CEO of Duct Tape Marketing, where she spent over 15 years helping small businesses build strategy-first marketing systems that actually work. Now being my daughter, Sarah has lived the small business reality from every angle as a teenager, as a team member, as a fractional CMO, and now as the CEO. In her new book,

Unchained, she makes the case that traditional agency model is broken, both for the clients and agencies and lays out a practical AI enabled strategy first approach she calls the anti-agency model. We’re going to touch on that. Permission helps small business owners stop renting their marketing and start owning it. Unchained, breaking free from broken marketing models. So Sarah, welcome to the show.

Sara Nay (00:53.858)

Thanks for having me on.

John Jantsch (00:55.778)

So you and I have been talking about marketing models for a long time. Was there a time when you kind of said, you know what, the agency model is broken and I got to create something different?

Sara Nay (01:06.455)

Yeah, I mean, as you mentioned in the introduction, I’ve been part of the agency space for about 15 years. And in that journey, I’ve moved from intern to community manager, account manager, fractional CMO for our clients among other roles. And so I’ve really been in all the different areas of the agency space. And throughout that journey, there’s definitely been times where I’ve noticed things that didn’t quite feel right in the agency space. And even further than that,

there have been several moments over the last 15 years where I’ve been burnt out and on the brink of saying, does this make sense to pursue even more, even further? And so I’ve lived a lot of challenges along the way and there’s no secret in the challenges I’ve seen. think a lot of people experience this in the agency space. And so starting on that side, on the agency side of things, there’s challenges with meeting client demands and managing scope creep and scaling and maintaining profitability and

retaining great talent and those are a lot of the things that I’ve heard from other agency owners struggling with, but I’ve also experienced it myself. Also in my roles, I’ve been on in the sales side of our business for a while now. So I’ve spoken with hundreds of small business owners who have worked with different agencies or outsourced solutions over those years. And I have heard all of their stories of

things along the lines of marketing doesn’t work or I’m paying this agency for X and I have no idea if I’m getting results or if anything’s happening with my marketing efforts. And so there’s been a lot of this going on for years in the agency space. But I think it’s becoming more more heightened now with the evolution of AI.

John Jantsch (02:49.518)

So you actually use the term anti-agency model. Now know you’re not an agency hater. so, so what makes this anti or, and not just a better agency.

Sara Nay (03:02.379)

Yeah. So the whole play with the anti-agency model, as you identified, like obviously we’re not anti-agency. We’re an agency ourselves. We have been for 31 years. We love agencies. And so I do keep, I keep explaining that because I don’t want people to think this book is against agencies, but what it’s with the anti-agency, what it’s saying is the model is broken essentially for some of the points that I had highlighted just a second ago. So it’s anti-agency model specifically.

And so the way we have been doing and functioning for years as agencies were being forced in some ways to evolve because of the evolution of AI. so previously to AI, it made sense for agencies to hold onto things like marketing, execution, content, social, SEO, paid ads, all of the execution elements. But with the evolution of AI, I believe small businesses are able to take some of that stuff in-house.

They still need strategic leadership and direction, but they now have an opportunity to stay a little bit more lean with their in-house marketing team by layering in AI systems below them to help with the heavy lifting of execution. And so that’s the whole idea of stop renting your marketing and taking back ownership of your marketing. You still need strategy. You still need direction. You still need leadership.

But now you can build a marketing department or team that is a bit leaner because they’re overseeing orchestration of marketing, which is done by AI systems.

John Jantsch (04:39.086)

So one of the things you and I talk about a lot, cause I say it all the time is I, you know, I’ve been doing this 30 years and while a lot of new shiny things have come along, the fundamentals of marketing have not really changed or what we’re here to do as marketers has not really changed that much. What timeless principles do you think from, our system? As you know, it’s still worked today.

Sara Nay (04:59.085)

Yeah. And so that’s the second really section of the book we get into the timeless after the intro and all of that, we get into the timeless principles. And so some of the things that I touch on there are things like target market, identifying your clients on a very deep level. I think that’s becoming even more and more important with the evolution of AI, because what I see is a lot of small businesses bringing in something like a chat, GBT or a clod or whatever their tool of choices. And they’ll start just like,

creating content and so it’s all over the place. It’s not consistent. It’s not on on brand. And so in your original book duct tape marketing, you talked a lot about identifying your ideal client on a deep level, understanding them emotionally, what keeps them up at night, what drives them. And so with the evolution of AI, you still need to understand your clients on a very deep level. But then if you’re going to bring in an AI tool, you then need to train the chat, you’d be to your tool of your choice that you bring in.

on that information. So when you’re creating content moving forward, you’re creating content that speaks to your ideal client on a deep level and isn’t just generic. Another timeless foundational principle is core messaging. We talk a lot about that over the years. So identifying your core message or we’ve talked a lot about talking logo as well. And so that’s really identifying what makes you unique, but also what messaging resonates with that ideal client.

That is still incredibly important today, but it’s also important to take that messaging and train your AI tools of choice on that messaging as well. So again, you’re not creating generic content, you’re creating content that speaks to your ideal clients with the messaging you’ve identified is really important. And so those foundations are still the same, but the way we’re using them is evolving a bit because of the technology that’s now available.

John Jantsch (06:48.733)

So, you know, we’ve, we’re all seeing people run into AI and just like, look what it can do, makes life faster, better, cheaper. Um, where do you think the danger of this, that like eyes wide open, you know, jump in and start using the tools? What do you think the danger of that is for many small businesses?

Sara Nay (07:07.987)

It complicates things that causes confusion. causes inconsistency. It causes noise. It amplifies the chaos that’s already there. It causes so many issues for the internal team or the team using the program, but also for the clients and prospects that you’re putting out content to as well. And so it’s causing confusion in both of those areas. And so a lot of what I encourage small businesses to do is take a step back.

John Jantsch (07:12.916)

amplifies the chaos that’s already there, right? Yeah.

Sara Nay (07:33.767)

And if you’ve been following duct tape marketing for any period of time, you’ve heard us say strategy before tactics. But it’s now strategy before tactics and technology is the conversation we’re having with clients. And so if you’re thinking about, okay, we need to be using AI tools instead of just diving into tools first, take a step back and answer some very important questions as to what’s the business actually trying to accomplish? What’s the marketing strategy look like based on that?

What’s the team strategy or what’s our current team structure look like? And then you can say, okay, what tools can help us accomplish our goals? And then once you identify what the tools are, you then need to train the tools on your strategy that you would have created to then get to the point where you’re ready to execute on them efficiently. So don’t dive into tools, take a step back, create the strategy, and then answer the question of what tools are gonna help us get from where we are today to where we’re trying to go.

John Jantsch (08:30.936)

So, you know, the fractional CMO plus concept is a big part of our model. what do you tell that small business owner that’s got kind of a smaller budget and it’s thinking, I really just need somebody to do stuff rather than like, you know, I can’t really afford or I, or maybe I’m not big enough to even think about the idea of having fractional leadership. What do you say to that business as to why they need to maybe change their mindset?

Sara Nay (08:55.403)

Yeah, I mean, think, again, I keep going back to AI, but it’s causing small business owners or small businesses an opportunity that we haven’t had before. so, you previously, let’s think of traditional marketing org chart. You would have a CMO in a company and then you would have a lot of different executors under them, essentially. So you’d have like a paid specialist, an email marketing specialist, a social, you know, all of the different channels and categories. That’s never really been feasible to small businesses because

they wouldn’t even have a budget for a CMO, let alone all the other people that are involved in that story. And so I think the best opportunity that small businesses have is right now in terms of the org chart, because you can bring in a fractional CMO. So you’re not paying a full-time salary. You’re paying a set fee every single month. That fractional CMO is then tasked with creating the overall strategy, managing the budget, owning the metrics.

overseeing all of the marketing department essentially. And then under that fractional CMO, believe instead of, I don’t know if we’re quite there yet, but the direction I believe we’re going is instead of having a specialist in all the different channels, small businesses can have marketing executors that are familiar enough in writing great copy and understanding social media, but they’re really systems oriented and technology first people.

where you can bring in AI systems below them to help them execute at a higher level than they’ve ever been before. And so now you’re getting a marketing org chart with all of these different roles that you previously probably couldn’t even think about affording as a small business.

John Jantsch (10:35.832)

So going back to the theme of renting, mean, the opposite of renting is owning. and so to a large degree, you know, what you’re describing there is kind of that path towards owning your, your marketing, you know, as a business, as opposed to maybe it wasn’t even renting. was abdicating like going here, you do it. I don’t care what you’re doing over there, but how does that change the business owners mindset in terms of.

Sara Nay (10:54.124)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:05.262)

people in terms of structure, in terms of process, if they’re actually, you know, now they’re going to have those people in their organization or they’re going to have those functions in their organization. Who manages that? How do they hire for that? Are they, are they bringing in more overhead that makes sense for their business if they’re going to start thinking that way, or is this the ultimate path to, truly scaling a business?

Sara Nay (11:16.557)

It obviously depends on the business situation, revenue size, long-term growth goals. And so there’s a lot of factors that I would need to consider to answer that specifically. But for me, if you’re a small business and you’re looking to scale up,

when you’re doing a certain level of revenue, you’ve been in business for a few years, let’s say you’ve passed the 1 million revenue mark, I think it’s time to start considering you need marketing leadership of some extent. And so when small businesses scale up to a certain point, if they haven’t looked for marketing leadership, the CEO becomes the CMO and they either have marketing experience or they learn marketing. And now it’s this necessary evil that

they’re having to spend a lot of their time on where they never wanted to become a CMO in the first place. And so if you’re scaling up and you have high growth goals, looking for someone like a fractional CMO, I think makes a lot of sense because the whole idea is as the CEO or founder, you stay in your zone of genius. You stay focused on the why behind you building the business in the first place. then you… In selling, yeah.

John Jantsch (12:34.798)

or in selling, you know, stuff that actually is going to make money for the business rather than you having to figure out how to manage the technology.

Sara Nay (12:46.121)

Exactly. And then you bring in a fractional CMO or a marketing leader of some extent that then is tasked with what you identified earlier in terms of managing team, bringing in partners or hiring full-time team, running the technology, building the systems and processes, running the budget and the metrics. so the fractional CMO is really tasked with leading the marketing department and working alongside you to help you reach the specific business goals that you would have laid out.

John Jantsch (13:15.566)

You know, if somebody, whoever you’re working with is going to bring you strategy first, you know, as the first step, it doesn’t really matter what you call that person, right? What their role is, right? I mean, it’s really more the idea of thinking strategy first, isn’t

Sara Nay (13:21.901)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (13:31.137)

Yeah, absolutely. And so we’ll throw out all different terms. I mean, we talk a lot about fractional CMO, but if that feels like too elevated of a term, know, marketing leader, marketing strategist, marketing advisor, you know, the point is what they’re doing. They’re, leading the marketing initiatives and not just being an order taker.

John Jantsch (13:51.672)

So let’s flip to agencies that are listening, because I know we have agencies listening as well. How do they have to shift their mindset to really stay relevant? mean, I think in some agency, you look at some of these agencies that are providing SEO and content and social media, that’s their package, right, of done for you services. There might be a time in the very near future where that’s just not that relevant.

Sara Nay (14:19.372)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:19.423)

or people aren’t going to be willing to pay what you need to run a profitable business. So how do agencies need to shift their mindset?

Sara Nay (14:26.705)

Yeah, and there’s been a lot of stuff coming out there that I’ve seen on LinkedIn and different articles about how many agencies are going to shut down in the next few years. I think a lot of that stuff’s hard to predict, but I do think if you just keep offering execution, it’s a race to the bottom in a lot of cases because small businesses, even if they’re not doing it that effectively yet, they are bringing in AI solutions to cut costs in certain areas. And I think that marketing execution is one of those.

areas. And so, you know, I think if agencies keep offering execution as their core services, it’s going to be very challenging in the next few years moving forward, because AI is becoming more sophisticated. So you’re basically competing against AI in that scenario versus if agencies shift their offering and they step more into this leadership role, where they’re, you know, focusing on strategy.

they’re elevating team, it can be their own team or it can be internal team, but they’re elevating humans essentially with AI systems below them. Then they’re working alongside AI versus competing against it.

John Jantsch (15:35.64)

So if I’m a small business owner listening and.

Obviously picking up and reading the book is going to be step one. But what are a couple steps towards taking this ownership mentality that somebody could start this week? If you’re stuck in the old kind of way of thinking, here are a couple things you can do this week to start changing your mindset or maybe even changing your marketing.

Sara Nay (16:06.165)

Yeah, of course. There’s two things that come to mind right off the bat. One of the first things, and I talk about this in the book as well, is the marketing strategy pyramid. We talk a lot about it at Duck Tape Marketing, but it’s really taking a step back and answering some business strategic questions first. So really analyzing what are your business goals? What are your objectives? What’s your revenue? Where are you growing towards? What are your mission, vision, values? And so really analyzing some of those things.

And then thinking through what is your marketing strategy to help you move in the right direction. And then thinking through what is your team strategy. So you have to have those two bottom layers of the pyramid first to then think about team. But, know, to the question of how can businesses take back ownership when you’re analyzing your team structure, think through like, these internal roles? Are we relying on outsourced vendors? If we’re relying on outside outsourced vendors or solutions.

Do we have clarity and confidence and control or ownership as to what they are doing or are we kind of left in the dark? I if you’re left in the dark through some of your partnerships, that’s when it’s time to analyze, does it make sense to continue on with this partnership or is there a way where we can get more ownership and control? So that’s where I would start is kind of going back to the basics there and analyzing your current structure, your current relationships, your current team.

and making sure that you have clarity in what everyone is doing.

John Jantsch (17:35.672)

So I’m going to go a little in the weeds here on AI, mainly because it’s on everybody’s mind right now. There are a lot of some of these agencies that we’re talking about are shifting their whole model to being calling themselves AI agencies, where they want to come in and show you how to put in agents and how to automated this and automated that. How do you think small businesses should be looking at?

Sara Nay (17:51.703)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:02.806)

I mean, I don’t think we have to convince them that it’s not going away, but how do you think they should be looking at getting the most out of AI as really the end to end solution or the end to end assistant at this point that it can be rather than just looking at it as, here’s how I can automate stuff and or worse yet, here’s how I can fire people and do more with less.

Sara Nay (18:08.909)

Yeah, a big part of that I think is doing an analysis of who’s currently on your team and you’re not asking the question.

How can we get more work out of them or how can we get them to move faster or be more productive? What you’re answering is how can we elevate them to make more of an impact? And so one of the exercises that we’ve done with our team fairly recently, and this is also in the book as well, is we had everyone on our team analyze what skills are they doing on a regular basis. And then we basically had them identify what are human-led skills that they should continue to focus on, things that light them up, that they love.

And then we also had them identify what skills can be AI assisted and what skills and tasks could be executed by AI. And so we went through that exercise so people could essentially analyze their roles and think about how they could future proof their careers moving forward. And so I think that’s a really great exercise for anyone listening as a business leader or for your whole entire team is you should all be thinking about how can we future proof the business as a whole.

And that’s a lot of what you and I talk about when we talk about shifting our model in a new direction. But you also need to be considering everyone on your team. How can you help them elevate with AI instead of be replaced by it? And then how can you help them continue to grow and focus on the skills that are becoming more important because of the evolution of AI?

John Jantsch (19:54.414)

talking with Sarah Ney, the author of Unchained. Sarah, I appreciate you spending a few moments to talk about Unchained. Is there a place that you’d invite people to go to find out more about the work you do, of course, but then also the new book?

Sara Nay (20:08.269)

Absolutely, so unchainedmodel.com is the book’s website, so love for you to check that out and also connect with me on LinkedIn. Again, my name is Sarah Ney.

John Jantsch (20:18.23)

Awesome, well again, I appreciate you stopping by. Hopefully we’ll see you one of these days soon out there on the

Sara Nay (20:24.589)

Thank you.

Unlocking Hidden Profits with Stacey Hylen

Unlocking Hidden Profits with Stacey Hylen written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Stacey Hylen, internationally recognized business coach, growth strategist, and author of “Hidden Profits: More Clients and Cash.” Stacey shares actionable insights on how business owners can uncover untapped revenue, raise prices with confidence, and create long-term client relationships—often without spending a dime on new marketing. The conversation covers why mindset is key, how to reposition from commodity to couture, and why small changes (like a single upsell question) can deliver massive results.

About the Guest

Stacey Hylen is a globally recognized business coach, growth strategist, and speaker who has spent over two decades helping entrepreneurs—from solo businesses to Fortune 500s—uncover hidden profits and boost performance. As a former VP for Chet Holmes International and now the author of “Hidden Profits,” Stacey is known for her practical, empowering approach to business growth.

Website: staceyhylen.com
Book: hiddenprofitbook.com

Actionable Insights

Most business owners are too close to their operations to spot hidden profit opportunities—outside perspective is powerful.
Raising prices is often the fastest path to profit, but it requires a mindset shift toward abundance and owning your expertise.
Attracting the right clients (and letting go of the wrong ones) leads to higher revenue, less price sensitivity, and more enjoyable work.
“Profit leaks” are caused by focusing on low-impact tasks and avoiding essential sales and marketing actions.
Reframing sales as service (helping, not selling) builds confidence and makes it easier to attract and close ideal clients.
Past clients are a goldmine—reactivation and “come on back” strategies can drive immediate revenue with minimal effort.
Upsells and cross-sells (“do you want fries with that?”) at the point of sale create easy, recurring profit boosts.
Every team member—not just sales—can (and should) look for opportunities to help clients and add value.
Even “commodity” businesses can reposition themselves as unique, high-value partners through better packaging, messaging, and client experience.
Small changes can have huge impact—one new question or process can increase sales by 40% or more.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

00:54 – Doubling Revenue with Hidden Profits
Stacey shares how a client reactivated past customers and tweaked pricing for dramatic growth.
02:07 – Overcoming the Fear of Raising Prices
Why mindset and confidence are essential to charging what you’re worth.
03:19 – The Power of Narrowing Your Focus
How strategic positioning and language attract the right (and repel the wrong) clients.
04:58 – Spotting and Fixing “Profit Leaks”
Why low-impact busywork and avoidance hold businesses back from real growth.
06:02 – Sales as Service, Not Selling
Why reframing the sales conversation helps business owners overcome reluctance and get referrals.
08:46 – The “Come on Back” Strategy
How one client had their best month ever by reactivating former customers—even in December.
10:30 – The $700,000 Mistake
The cost of not keeping in touch—and how a single call can recover massive lost revenue.
12:53 – The Hidden Profits Framework
Stacey outlines her step-by-step process for finding revenue you already have.
13:47 – Upsells and Cross-Sells at the Point of Sale
Simple, proven ways to increase average transaction value.
15:52 – From Commodity to Couture
How even price-driven businesses can reposition for higher profits and loyalty.
18:00 – Surprising Results with Small Changes
The story of a 48% sales increase from a single upsell question.

Pulled Quotes

“Most business owners are too close to see the hidden profits in their business. It’s about getting resourceful, not just adding resources.”
— Stacey Hylen

“Sales is service. If you’re great at what you do, you owe it to your clients to help them—and that means being confident about your value.”
— Stacey Hylen

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.55)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Stacey Hylen. She’s an international recognized business coach, growth strategist and speaker who spent over two decades helping entrepreneurs uncover untapped revenue and performance in their business. As a former vice president for Chet Holmes International, Stacey has worked with companies ranging from solo entrepreneurs to Fortune 500s. We’re going to talk about her new book.

hidden profits, more clients and cash. So welcome to the show, Stacey.

Stacey Hylen (00:35.247)

Thanks John, I’m excited to be here.

John Jantsch (00:37.696)

So you open actually the book with a story, which is always awesome. A business owner doubled their revenue without new marketing spend. Can you break down a little bit of the hidden profit you helped them find and, and maybe also like how they couldn’t spot it themselves.

Stacey Hylen (00:54.649)

Yeah, well, the thing is, is that a lot of times when you’re a business owner, you’re stuck in the day to day doing all the time. so it’s really, really hard to see the things for yourself. So the hidden profits came about from when I worked with Tony Robbins and he said during the recession, it’s not about a lack of resources. It’s about becoming more resourceful.

And so what we looked at is, all right, what are the ways that we can increase? And we looked at the different hidden profits in his business. In this case, he was able to do a come on back strategy to reactivate a bunch of the clients that, that hadn’t been in his business for a while and increase his business that way. And then we also looked at tweaking his pricing because this is in a lot of places he was under pricing what he was doing.

John Jantsch (01:45.902)

Yeah, yeah, we could probably talk the whole show about that very thing. I find that especially with service businesses. What would and you probably encountered that a lot, right? So just telling somebody they should raise their prices. Well, it make sense. It’s pretty hard for them to sometimes stomach. How do get people around that resistance that they’re normally is?

Stacey Hylen (02:07.779)

Well, it’s funny because in the book I call that that fear factor, right? The hidden profit of raising your prices because people not being able to raise prices comes from a lack mentality as opposed to abundance mentality. It also comes from not owning your expertise. And so I think one of the big challenges that, that entrepreneurs need to do is to start to own their expertise and to own the outcome that they help create for their client. And when you.

John Jantsch (02:11.746)

Yeah, right, right.

Stacey Hylen (02:37.315)

focus on what the outcome is that you create for your client, then it’s a lot easier to say, okay, this is worth charging more for, be willing to, know, sometimes it’s baby steps that we have to do, you know, that we raise the price on one particular product or service or program, and then once they get the little bit of confidence, then we, you know, step it up again and again until we get to the right spot.

John Jantsch (03:00.226)

You know, I also find a lot of that comes from them not really being very specific about who they can help. And so they attract a lot of people that don’t get the value, don’t appreciate their expertise and, consequently are very price sensitive. Would you, would you say that’s also another, like getting people to narrow their focus as part of it too?

Stacey Hylen (03:19.331)

Yeah, it’s really important. And I think part of that comes from your language when you speak to in your marketing, you know, and really honing in that strategic positioning so that you become the expert that they want to work with. And I think, you know, I had a client here yesterday for a VIP day. And one of the things that was funny is he was saying words that he wanted, you know, to attract the clients and.

None of the words he mentioned were the words in actual prospect would be searching for or looking for in a transformation. So we had to really look at that. And then we also looked at, know, who are those clients that he didn’t want and what were the warning signs? Because I think a lot of times, again, coming from a lack perspective versus an abundance perspective, that they think, it’s a lead. have to take this client. But when you have a lot of crappy clients, it sucks your energy. It sucks your time.

And it’s not a great way to grow your business. Whereas if you have one of your perfect clients that is fun to work with, is willing to invest, like that’s a great way to grow your business.

John Jantsch (04:15.278)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (04:23.244)

Yeah, it’s funny, you know, you’re in this game very long at all. You know, you can almost, I can almost talk to a client. The first thing they ask me, you know, well, if we go, you’re going to be a good client or not. You know, you get really good at sort of recognizing that perfect client behavior, don’t you?

Stacey Hylen (04:39.149)

Yeah. And also it’s, it’s, it’s willing to be pay attention to your gut when you hear that, but you’re like, Ooh, that’s not going to be a good one. And, being willing to just release them and let them go into the wild.

John Jantsch (04:44.118)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

John Jantsch (04:52.022)

You identify something as being a problem that you call profit leaks. You want to talk a little bit about what those are?

Stacey Hylen (04:58.991)

Yeah. So one of the things with the profit leaks is that people are focusing on the wrong thing in their business. They’re focusing on the minutia in their business that is not helping them create revenue. Right. And so this could be endlessly tweaking your website. could be, you know, anything that is like so much easier to do than actually do some marketing, go out there, talk to prospects, get in front of, you know, places where your perfect clients are.

John Jantsch (05:13.417)

Right

John Jantsch (05:20.204)

Mm-hmm.

Stacey Hylen (05:26.883)

So I’m sure you see that in all of your work that people just like hide out. And that’s really where a lot of those revenue leaks come because they’re not taking the action that they need to take.

John Jantsch (05:36.682)

Well, I can go a lot of directions with that. But I think that that’s a real issue. A lot of businesses, mean, a of people know how to do something. They got into a business to do it, but they didn’t really get into business to go out there and sell to, you know, actually have conversations with people or convince people as they maybe feel like it is. So how do you get people past that? Because I mean, the whole profit conversation kind of breaks down if I can’t go out there and get clients.

Stacey Hylen (06:02.691)

The thing is, that I really help my clients shift from seeing sales as selling to helping them see it as serving. And the reason why is if, if I was to ask you, what’s your favorite restaurant, you would, what’s your favorite restaurant, John? It’s easy to say, right?

John Jantsch (06:18.35)

All right, it’s Trace Greengroce in case you’re listening in Nederland, Colorado. Okay, go ahead.

Stacey Hylen (06:24.565)

Awesome. Awesome. And so you’d like, that’s easy because you think, my gosh, I’m going to help Stacey find a great place to eat while she’s in Colorado. But the thing is, is your prospects are also having problems and challenges. And if you are really good at what you do and you’re an expert at it, then you should be willing to share what you do because you’re helping solve a problem for somebody and you’re actually serving them. So I think that’s really the first step to shift into that.

that confidence and that’s where having a coach really helps is because sometimes they have, my clients have to borrow my confidence, both in selling, marketing, and also raising their prices, right? Because those are all confidence issues.

John Jantsch (06:51.02)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:56.056)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (07:02.604)

Yeah. And I would extend that to referrals too, because a lot of people, even if they have a good customer, they’re like, I’m reluctant to ask, you know, for referrals, but it’s the same thing. It’s like, if, if you’re getting like this amazing result, wouldn’t you your friend to get that? So it’s kind of the same mentality, isn’t it? So I should have asked this at the very beginning of the show. But we ought to set, we ought to talk a little bit about people’s relationship with the word profit to begin with. You know, a lot of business owners,

don’t really think about profit or heaven forbid some actually look at it as a negative thing. And so consequently, and you probably know Mike McCallewitz, my friend that’s been on the show a number of times, wrote Profit First. And you you said that a lot of business owners, all they really want to do is pay the bills and pay themselves a salary and, you know, amounts to being a job rather than building an asset. So do you find that you sometimes have to actually set the

Stacey Hylen (07:44.143)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (07:59.532)

baseline for what profit is and why it’s a good thing?

Stacey Hylen (08:03.279)

Sometimes, it depends on the client, right? But I think a lot of times what happens is, you know, the hidden profits are really revenue boosters that go direct line to bottom line profit. And that’s the difference in this book. Right, because that’s why this book has hidden profits, because there are things that…

John Jantsch (08:04.737)

Okay.

John Jantsch (08:08.088)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (08:16.108)

Yeah. Yeah. Raise your prices without raising your costs. Right.

Stacey Hylen (08:23.691)

boost your revenue, but because it doesn’t increase your cost, you’re not doing more marketing or more expense with the strategies in the book. It all goes to the bottom line profit. So it makes it much easier to boost your profit.

John Jantsch (08:26.958)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:36.398)

So if you were gonna walk into a business, and I know every business is different, but have you found there are a couple things that are like, that’s the low hanging fruit. Like here’s the first thing we’re gonna do.

Stacey Hylen (08:46.051)

Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing is, know, what do you have for past clients that are currently not doing business with you? Because those people love you, they trust you, and for the most part, you know, you were saying people are shy to do it or hesitant to do it. People are, other than dentists, are hesitant to get people to come back, right? And so.

John Jantsch (09:10.156)

Yeah,

Stacey Hylen (09:11.247)

We want to do a come on back strategy. And I had a client that I talk about in the book that she was taking one of my live hidden profit programs and it was the slowest month of the year for her. It was December. She was selling weight loss. Nobody wants to lose weight in December. It’s like time to eat your grandma’s cookies, right? So we did, she, she was an action taker and she said, I’m going to do it even though it’s December. And I was like, well, this might not be the best month for this hidden profit, but go for it.

John Jantsch (09:26.486)

Right,

Stacey Hylen (09:39.809)

She increased her sales by over 50 % in one month. She had her best month ever in her business by doing that reactivation strategy. And it’s because she actually went back to them, gave them permission to come back. And sometimes that’s the shyness there is like, you think the client is shy to come back to you because they might’ve gone off and tried another weight loss product or tried somebody else to fix their car or cut their hair or whatever it is. And you’re saying like, Hey, I’d love to have you back.

John Jantsch (09:53.816)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:01.932)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stacey Hylen (10:09.017)

come on back and that works almost every single time to really boost profits very quickly.

John Jantsch (10:15.148)

You know, it’s really interesting too, because I think most businesses feel like, they left because they weren’t getting what they wanted here or, but people leave for tons of reasons. Right. And so I think for us to assume that it was all about us is probably what holds a lot of people back.

Stacey Hylen (10:30.625)

Yeah, this one, this one is going to be a rider downer for your listeners and watchers. I have a client, we call this the $700,000 mistake. And he was coming to his coaching call and he canceled last minute. And I said, what happened? And he said, well, I had a hundred thousand dollars sale. No, normally a hundred thousand dollars sale. I would be like, let’s do our happy dance. And he said, no, Stacy, this was not a happy dance moment. And I said, well, how can a hundred thousand dollars sale not be a happy dance moment? And he said, this client.

John Jantsch (10:34.904)

Okay, let’s hear it.

John Jantsch (10:51.084)

Right, right.

Stacey Hylen (11:00.111)

was a past client that for the last seven years has been going to my competitor. And because he had not said, come on back, he lost $700,000 in sales. So I want your listeners to be thinking about that. Like really, there’s some hidden profit right there that if you just go back and talk to these past clients, you can be welcoming them back into your business very easily.

John Jantsch (11:26.412)

Well, I think he should have done the happy dance anyway, you know, take what you can get. Okay. He learned a lesson, but take what you can get.

Stacey Hylen (11:33.769)

He learned a very expensive lesson.

John Jantsch (11:38.424)

So in some cases, people left because something was too expensive, their business had changed or something. mean, so how often do you find that the hidden profits might be in saying, hey, we need to relook at all of our products or all of our offerings and repackage or repositioning. How much of creating new profit is sort of reinvigorating what you’ve already put out

Stacey Hylen (12:01.711)

Yeah, well, when I, I have a mastermind and we have retreats twice a year and that’s really like, I would say like six months because we do the retreats every six months. It kind of gives us a time to like deep dive into the business and look at, okay, what’s working, what’s changed because you’re, you know, the markets change, the economy changes. AI has brought in a lot of stuff, right? Like I, recently become a certified AI consultant. like you can look at like.

John Jantsch (12:22.892)

Right. Right.

Stacey Hylen (12:29.817)

How can you refresh your offers to meet what your clients actually want right now? How can you package them differently? How can you drive them to those offers in a way that gets more clients quickly?

John Jantsch (12:45.048)

So you do talk about the hidden profits framework in the book. Is there a way for you to give the high level, here’s the step-by-step process?

Stacey Hylen (12:53.581)

Yeah, so what we’re looking at is we’re looking at where you’re not getting the revenue coming in the door. So we talked about the reactivation, the come on back. So that’s lost clients that have already worked with you. Another great spot to look at that’s a very quick win for most people is do you want fries with that? Right? The upsell. Now, when we were kids, we went to McDonald’s and they said, do you want fries with that? And our parents were like, okay.

And now they sell the happy meal, you know, the combo meal that has everything together with it. And they say, do you want to biggie size it or do you want to supersize it? And so a lot of times people are leaving money on the table right there when people have their wallets out. So when people have their wallets out in your business, that’s an opportunity for you to say, okay, you’re signing up for this. Would you like this? The VIP level support? Would you like this?

John Jantsch (13:37.646)

Mm-hmm.

Stacey Hylen (13:47.407)

additional thing that will help them solve their problem, help them reach their goal faster. So those are two hidden profit points that are really quick to add into your business without any additional time, money, or, you know, team members to implement them.

John Jantsch (14:03.31)

Let’s say you do have a team. I work with a lot of folks that have, you know, even salespeople in organizations, which, you know, their job is to sell more stuff, right? But what you’re talking about, the reactivating customers, looking for ways to sell more to, you know, even account managers, say in marketing firms. I isn’t that something that really ought to be, or a business ought to look at that as being everybody’s job, is to start adding those things?

Stacey Hylen (14:27.725)

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Like I have a long time client. He’s been my client for over 15 years. And so what we look at every year is, okay, who are your best clients? What additional products, services, what additional things can help them solve their problems and help their clients reach their goals faster. And then his team, he has salespeople and he has operations people, they are trained to look for.

across opportunities also in that account. Like what else does this client need? What other divisions does this company have that could use our services? Who else could we meet in this company that could connect us to somebody else in the company that also needs our products or services? So absolutely, that’s something that should be constantly looked at and also rewarded, right? In terms of not just a sales team, but if you have an operations team that’s dealing with the client on a regular basis, they’re a really good person to.

John Jantsch (15:16.492)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stacey Hylen (15:24.089)

hear about the pain, to hear about the goals within the company, how they’ve changed since the person’s talked to the salesperson and bring in some additional revenue through that avenue as well.

John Jantsch (15:31.116)

Yes.

John Jantsch (15:35.852)

What about companies that feel like, and I run across them all the time, at least people have this mentality. It’s like, I’m in this commodity industry. It’s all about price. You know, there’s, there’s really nothing more we can squeeze out of this. Have you been able to help companies like that, or at least that have that mentality think differently?

Stacey Hylen (15:52.259)

That is absolutely, that is one of my favorite things to do is to help clients go from commodity to Couture. And what that means is, you know, if you are competing on price, right? I had a client in the logistics industry, they are competing on price every single day and they’re competing against a hundred million dollar, billion dollar companies that are, you know, they have hundreds of salespeople smiling and dialing all day long, sending cold emails, all of that.

John Jantsch (15:56.002)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:13.826)

Right.

Stacey Hylen (16:22.325)

And my client was a boutique company. He’s gone from six to eight figures since we’ve been working together because we positioned him as this couture brand of helping him solve a problem for his client and get a better result, not saying, Hey, can we quote you on, on shipping? Can we quote you? And so what we’ve done is we’ve positioned him as how can we help you increase the client satisfaction on the back end?

John Jantsch (16:32.557)

Mm-hmm.

Stacey Hylen (16:48.267)

of the transaction once you make a sale in your company. So logistics becomes a value add versus a cost in the business. that also, when you position yourself in that future manner, it also helps the person making that buying decision be more confident changing providers because they’re going towards something, not just like making a minute improvement in something or just cutting costs, which often means you’re getting less service, less quality.

John Jantsch (17:08.172)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (17:17.398)

Yeah. Well, and they also aren’t going to leave you for the next person that’s five cents cheaper, right? Because it’s like, no way. Have you had any results that that that you’ve gotten for somebody that even surprised you?

Stacey Hylen (17:22.723)

Right, absolutely, absolutely.

Stacey Hylen (17:30.847)

gosh. Well, I would say that person doing the weight loss in December was a huge one. the other one, I had a client who had an auto parts store who is, you know, had all employees that were elderly and he was complaining about them when he did his intake form and is saying like, this wasn’t working, that wasn’t working. And it was really all about team. And I said, my gosh, how am going to help him if none of his team will do anything he said?

John Jantsch (17:35.822)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:55.555)

Mm-hmm.

Stacey Hylen (18:00.271)

So I said, we’re probably gonna have to clean house. And when we got on the call, he said, well, I’m not willing to let anybody go there. We live in this small town. They’re not gonna get any other employment. They’re family members, church members. So what we did is we did a one question upsell. That was it. And that increased his sales 48 % in one month. And it was just, he was blown away. I was blown away because he had such a hard, you know,

John Jantsch (18:09.347)

Hehehe.

Stacey Hylen (18:29.039)

hill to climb with his employees to actually do something? Just one question at a 48 % increase.

John Jantsch (18:35.278)

You and that’s a great lesson too, because sometimes we try to do all these things, right? At one time, and it just kind of overwhelms everybody. Just having that one thing was easy for people to do. And then they probably, when they started seeing success, they probably got a little jazzed in.

Stacey Hylen (18:50.711)

Yeah, yeah, because it’s when you get a yes and people are happy, then you want to have more of that. Right. And also the employees had the employer being really happy too, which created goodwill and helped the company culture as well.

John Jantsch (18:53.419)

you

John Jantsch (19:05.774)

Well, Stacey, I appreciate you taking a moment to drop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you, find out more about your work, and obviously pick up a copy of Hidden Profits?

Stacey Hylen (19:14.807)

Yeah, thanks for asking. This has been great. I can be found at staceyhyland.com and I’m Stacey Hyland everywhere on the internet. And then if you want to get on the early bird list for the book, you go to hiddenprofitbook.com and we’re going to have a bunch of resources there. I have some AI stuff that’s kind of behind the scenes that I’ve, you know, plugged in with the hidden profits. So that’s going to be great. So go to hiddenprofitbook.com to get that as well.

John Jantsch (19:42.24)

Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you dropping by and hopefully we’ll run into you on these days out there on the road.

Stacey Hylen (19:46.932)

Thanks John, have a great day.

Do This Instead: How to Adapt Your Marketing to the AI-Shaped Buyer Journey

Do This Instead: How to Adapt Your Marketing to the AI-Shaped Buyer Journey written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

TL;DR

AI has fundamentally altered how buyers discover, evaluate, and choose solutions. The marketing funnel is no longer a straight line — it’s an ongoing conversation between the buyer and AI assistants like ChatGPT, Perplexity, Google AI Overviews, and Bing Copilot.

The Duct Tape Marketing System still works — it just needs to evolve. The Strategy Before Tactics principle still applies. The Marketing Hourglass still maps the journey. And Total Online Presence is more important than ever. What changes is how we execute inside those frameworks.

Here are 8 shifts — rooted in DTM thinking — to keep your marketing relevant and visible in an AI-driven world.

The AI-Shaped Buyer Journey Explained

Buyers used to move through predictable stages — Know, Like, Trust, Try, Buy, Repeat, Refer — interacting directly with your content, ads, and sales team.

Today, AI has inserted itself into every stage of the Hourglass:

Know: Buyers start with AI search, not Google, and may never see your site.
Like: AI presents reviews, testimonials, and “best of” lists.
Trust: AI agents recommend experts based on authority signals.
Try/Buy: AI surfaces options and even negotiates packages.
Repeat/Refer: AI still influences ongoing loyalty by suggesting alternatives.

DTM takeaway: The frameworks still apply — but now we must market to humans and algorithms equally.

Shift #1 – Make Your Website AI-Ready

DTM Principle: Total Online Presence begins with your hub site.

How to do it:

Answer-First Pages: Identify top 10 buyer questions, open each page with a 2–3 sentence direct answer.
Schema Markup: Add FAQ, HowTo, and Article schema using RankMath or Merkle’s Schema Generator. Test with Google’s Rich Results Test.
Answer Hubs: Group related FAQs into one page with H2 headings and concise answers (<50 words).
Trust Signals: Include author bios, credentials, last updated dates, and citations.

Shift #2 – SEO for “Answer Authority”

DTM Principle: Strategy Before Tactics — your expertise must be positioned clearly before you optimize.

How to do it:

Map buyer intent to the Hourglass stages (Awareness, Consideration, Decision).
Create hub-and-spoke content: hub page + supporting subtopic pages linking back.
Include your unique methodology/core difference in all content.
Cite reputable sources to boost authority signals.

Shift #3 – Content for Humans and AI

DTM Principle: Content as the Voice of Strategy.

How to do it:

Write in dual layers: human storytelling and AI-friendly facts/definitions.
Include a Q&A section with concise answers (<50 words).
Build an industry glossary with plain language definitions.
Use structured formats like lists, tables, and comparison charts.

Shift #4 – AI-Native Lead Generation

DTM Principle: Lead Generation Trio — content, referrals, advertising — now adapted for AI ecosystems.

How to do it:

Create mini-AI tools (custom GPTs, calculators, quizzes).
Ungate flagship resources so AI can access them, adding CTAs for conversion.
Build interactive workflows (quiz → personalized plan).

Shift #5 – Multi-Platform, Keyword-Rich Reviews

DTM Principle: Referrals are marketing fuel — now amplified through AI search.

How to do it:

Be present on at least 3 review platforms (Google, LinkedIn, niche sites).
Coach clients to use service-specific keywords in reviews.
Automate review collection with tools like GatherUp or NiceJob.

Shift #6 – Nurturing Through AI Prompts

DTM Principle: Marketing Hourglass — Trust and Try happen through repeated exposure.

How to do it:

Create “Best For” positioning pages.
Publish “vs competitor” comparison content.
Refresh site content quarterly to prevent outdated AI references.

Shift #7 – Competitive Positioning in AI Training Data

DTM Principle: Total Online Presence — be everywhere your ideal client looks.

How to do it:

Get quoted in authoritative media (HARO, Qwoted).
Guest on podcasts/webinars — AI scrapes transcripts.
Contribute to public research or industry reports.

Shift #8 – Measuring Your AI Share of Voice

DTM Principle: Scorecard — measure what matters and optimize relentlessly.

How to do it:

Test prompts in AI tools monthly to check brand presence.
Track AI mentions using Brand24 or Perplexity analytics.
Maintain a monthly AI Visibility Scorecard.

Conclusion & Next Steps

AI isn’t replacing the Duct Tape Marketing System — it’s amplifying the need for it. Your strategy is still the driver. Your Hourglass still guides the buyer journey. But now, your execution must ensure both buyers and algorithms know, like, and trust you.

Next 90 Days Action Plan:

Build one AI-ready Answer Hub.
Diversify reviews to 3+ platforms.
Publish one “Best For” positioning page.
Secure at least one earned media placement.

Frequently Asked Questions

What is AI Share of Voice?

AI Share of Voice measures how often your brand is mentioned or recommended in AI-generated search results compared to competitors.

How does AI change SEO?

SEO now needs to focus on being the most credible, citable source for AI summaries, not just ranking on Google’s page one.

Do I still need a blog if AI summarizes my content?

Yes — your blog is still the core way to establish authority, provide fresh information, and feed AI assistants structured, trustworthy answers.

Can small businesses compete in AI search?

Absolutely. AI rewards specificity and expertise, which means focused niche businesses can outrank bigger brands in AI recommendations.

Is Traditional Marketing Dead? Why Strategy Wins in the Age of AI

Is Traditional Marketing Dead? Why Strategy Wins in the Age of AI written by Sara Nay read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Over the past 15 years, I’ve watched marketing evolve in ways we never could’ve imagined. When I started as an intern at Duct Tape Marketing, the name of the game was execution. Do the work. Deliver the thing. Check the box.

Back then, success meant staying busy. Creating deliverables, managing campaigns, launching tactics. And honestly, that model served us well for a while.

But today, things are different. That model is breaking.

AI Has Changed the Game

The rise of AI hasn’t just changed how we work. It’s completely shifted the value we bring as marketers.

Small businesses now have access to tools that can write content, analyze performance, and even build marketing assets in seconds. What used to take a whole team and several days can now be done with a few well-written prompts. The result? Execution has become a commodity.

Doing the work isn’t enough anymore. Simply checking boxes doesn’t move the needle the way it used to.

It’s Time to Evolve

This is our wake-up call. As marketers, consultants, and agency leaders, we have to stop viewing ourselves as taskmasters. Instead, we need to step into the role of guide and strategist.

Our clients don’t just need help with content calendars and SEO reports. They need someone who can help them make smarter decisions, implement the right tools, and build systems that actually scale.

Start With Strategy

Every successful marketing system I’ve helped build starts in the same place: strategy.

We use a simple but powerful three-tiered approach I call the Strategy Pyramid:

Business Strategy: What are your goals? Where are you headed?
Marketing Strategy: Who are you trying to reach? What are you offering, and how are you positioning it?
Team Strategy: Who is responsible for what? What tools and systems will support this plan?

Too many businesses skip this part. They dive straight into tactics like running ads, setting up email automations, and posting on social. But without clear strategic direction, those tactics rarely lead to the results they want.

AI doesn’t fix that problem. In fact, it makes it worse. When you automate without clarity, you’re just moving faster in the wrong direction.

Why Simple Wins

One of the biggest changes I’ve embraced in recent years is simplifying the marketing process.

Forget those bloated 12-month marketing plans. Instead, we work in 30 to 45-day sprints. It’s long enough to make progress, short enough to pivot if needed. It keeps teams focused, aligned, and moving with intention.

And when it comes to AI, simplicity matters even more. You don’t need to jump into every new tool that hits the market. Start with one. Get a quick win. Let your team see the impact. Then grow from there.

That’s how you build momentum. Not through complexity, but through clarity and consistency.

AI is Only as Good as Your Strategy

Yes, AI is powerful. Tools like ChatGPT have changed the way we think about creativity, speed, and productivity. But tools are just that — tools. They only work well if you have a solid foundation underneath them.

That’s why I’m so excited about platforms like Ella from Atomic Elevator. Ella is a marketing operating system that helps businesses build strategic marketing systems while staying true to their brand voice. It removes the need for fancy prompt engineering and brings structure to how content and strategy come together.

This kind of innovation gives small businesses the ability to compete with larger brands and gives agencies a smarter way to scale without burning out.

Your Team Isn’t Being Replaced. They’re Being Reimagined.

Here’s the truth: AI is not here to replace your team. It’s here to elevate them.

But in order to do that, we have to change how we think about marketing roles. It’s not just about executing tasks anymore. It’s about bringing empathy, creativity, and strategic thinking to the table. Those are the skills that will set marketers apart.

When I talk to business owners, the most common question I hear is, “Where do I even start with AI?”

My answer is always the same: Start small. Start smart. You don’t need a full AI tech stack overnight. Choose one tool. Build one system around it. Measure the outcome. Then expand from there.

That’s how you go from overwhelmed to empowered.

Are You Ready to Lead?

The truth is, traditional marketing isn’t dead. But it is evolving. And if you want to keep up, it’s time to shift.

If you’re ready to stop chasing tactics and start leading with strategy…
If you want to embrace AI without losing your voice or your vision…
If you’re looking to build systems that grow with you, not ones that burn you out…

Then let’s talk.

And check out my episode with Ellie McIntyre on the Conversion Zoo Podcast for more insights on where marketing is headed next.

The Long-Haul Leader with Chris Ducker

The Long-Haul Leader with Chris Ducker written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Chris Ducker, serial entrepreneur, bestselling author, and founder of Youpreneur. Chris shares lessons from his new book, “The Long-Haul Leader: How to Lead and Win in the Long Game of Business,” and explains why sustainable success requires patience, consistency, self-care, and transparency. The conversation covers the power of personal “operating systems,” the value of creative hobbies, the importance of prioritizing recovery, and how vulnerability and leading out loud foster loyalty and real connection in business and life.

About the Guest

Chris Ducker is a serial entrepreneur, bestselling author, and founder of Youpreneur, a global personal brand business education company. Recognized for his candid, actionable advice on entrepreneurship and personal brand leadership, Chris has helped countless business owners scale and lead for the long haul. His books, “Rise of the Youpreneur” and “The Long-Haul Leader,” offer roadmaps for building sustainable businesses—and lives—rooted in clarity, community, and authenticity.

Website: chrisducker.com
Book: longhaulleader.com

Actionable Insights

Short-term wins are loud, but true impact “whispers until it starts roaring”—sustainable success is built on patience, consistency, and showing up for the long haul.
“Hustle” is a season, not a lifestyle. Lasting growth comes from intentional focus, recovery, and doing unflashy work behind the scenes.
The Long-Haul Leader framework is built on four pillars: personal mastery, hobbies/pastimes, love/relationships, and impactful work—with balance and alignment at the core.
Creative hobbies and prioritizing recovery boost productivity and satisfaction—entrepreneurs with hobbies are more successful at work.
Measuring progress in these areas means tracking not just KPIs, but also personal growth, creative time, and meaningful relationships.
Transparency and “leading out loud” build trust—sharing both wins and struggles creates stronger teams and connections.
Reinvention is essential. Burnout and setbacks are part of the journey; prioritizing health, joy, and the right people is key to bouncing back.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

01:22 – The Dangers of Short-Termism and the Power of the Long Game
Chris explains how patience and consistency outlast hustle culture for real business impact.
05:02 – Focus Over Followers
Why clarity, intention, and saying “no” matter more than chasing every shiny object or platform.
07:28 – The Operating System for Long-Haul Leadership
Chris introduces his four-part framework: personal mastery, hobbies, relationships, and impactful work.
11:39 – Hobbies and Recovery Aren’t Optional
Research (and Chris’s own experience) show creative hobbies and recovery time dramatically improve performance.
16:38 – The Power of Analog and Using Your Hands
How woodworking, painting, and hands-on hobbies can boost mental clarity and satisfaction.
17:06 – Burnout and Reinvention
Chris shares his own story of hitting rock bottom, recovering, and reshaping his business and life.
20:07 – Leading Out Loud: The Value of Vulnerability
Why openness, transparency, and sharing the journey matter for modern leadership.
22:36 – Writing the Book as Memoir, Roadmap, and Call to Action
Chris describes how personal stories and practical frameworks combine to help others lead for the long haul.

Pulled Quotes

“Short-term wins are loud. Long-term impact whispers—until it starts roaring.”
— Chris Ducker

“Hustle is a season, not a lifestyle. Prioritizing recovery and the right people is the secret to lasting success.”
— Chris Ducker

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.898)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Chris Ducker. He’s a serial entrepreneur, bestselling author and founder of Youpnur, a global personal brand business education company. He’s recognized for his candid actionable advice on entrepreneurship, business growth and personal brand leadership. He’s been on this show before with a couple of his other books, For Sure Rise of the Youpnur, I think.

shaped countless business owners to scale and lead. And we’re going to talk about his latest book, The Long-Haul Leader, How to Lead and Win in the Long Game of Business. So Chris, welcome to the show.

@ChrisDucker (00:39.814)

Yeah, thanks for having me back, John. Appreciate it.

John Jantsch (00:41.666)

So serial entrepreneur, know, my mind goes to like Frosted Flakes or something, is there a favorite serial in the UK that we don’t have over here maybe?

@ChrisDucker (00:53.01)

Boy, I don’t know. That’s a really good question to kick off the chat. I’m pretty sure that we’ve got everything you’ve got and you’ve probably got about another gazillion other serials that we don’t have, I would think.

John Jantsch (01:06.359)

You’ve certainly got something dry and drier and tastelesser.

@ChrisDucker (01:11.784)

I was going say we generally don’t do cereal in our house. I think the last time I had a bowl of cereal, was probably something bland and boring like cornflakes or something like that.

John Jantsch (01:22.094)

Okay. All right. So in the book, you take on something you call short-termism, which I guess is obviously the opposite of the long haul. Was there a time in your business? mean, a lot of authors are really just writing like from the insights they’ve had over, you know, growing their own businesses. When did you realize the long game? Was it, did you have to be in the long game to realize the long game’s value?

@ChrisDucker (01:39.335)

Yep.

@ChrisDucker (01:50.024)

That’s a question. I think that I probably felt it initially, probably maybe 10 years or so ago when we opened up the doors to Uprenur. At that point, I’d already had two other businesses that were both doing very, very well indeed. Funnily enough, both those businesses we’ve now exited and sold over recent years. So the only business that we run now day to day is Uprenur.

And we’ve niched that down now to serve business authors and help them not only write and market their books and launch their books, but also to build businesses around their books and the frameworks that live within them. And that’s going really, really well right now as well. So I believe that when we opened up the doors to Upino, there was a lot of kind of membership sites out there teaching you how to market and your business and grow your business, become a creator and all that kind of stuff. But for me,

John Jantsch (02:29.976)

Mm-hmm.

@ChrisDucker (02:48.584)

I remember saying, this is going to be probably like the next 10, 15 years of my life, I think. Like I felt really quite positive and confident on that fact. And the the real reason here is that the other factor here is I think that ultimately, particularly as an entrepreneur, like we’re kind of conditioned to go after those quick wins, right? Those fast wins, those shiny object wins, as I call them, but

John Jantsch (03:09.432)

Mm-hmm.

@ChrisDucker (03:13.85)

If you think about how short-term wins are quite loud, you go for something, you grab them, you celebrate it in a loud way, the way I look at long-term impact is really it whispers and whispers and whispers until it starts roaring. I’m all about the roar at this point. The real game should be patience and consistency and showing up even when it’s not sexy, doing the un…

the unflashy work behind the scenes and all that kind of stuff. And so, yeah, I think there’s certainly something to be said for hustle, right? And hustle culture. There’s nothing wrong with a little hustle every now and then. And you will hustle anyway, just naturally by being a business owner, a deadline, a project that you want to get out the door by a certain date or something along those lines. But generally speaking, it’s not sustainable to be in that hustle mindset for too long. In fact, hustle, if you think about it, is a season.

It’s not a lifestyle. I talk about that in the book, obviously.

John Jantsch (04:10.254)

Yeah. But help me a little bit. mean, I get this. I’ve been doing this 30 years, you know, so I get, you know, what happens is you, you develop muscles and you develop memory and that helps you with the long game. Like every year in our business, February is a terrible month. And it must have something to do with, you know, the cycle of, of, know, what people do in business. You know, it’s like everybody wants to close the year and, you know, big time. And then there’s like kind of this exhale.

And so younger members of my team are like, leads are way down, know, business is way down. What are we going to do? And I’m like, it’s always this way. You know, just, just wait for March. It’ll be fine. You know, but, that until you’ve been through it 10 times, you know, it’s hard to have that mindset. So how does a, how does a younger entrepreneur in this case, develop that long-term mindset without kind of the, benefit of, you hindsight.

@ChrisDucker (04:45.869)

Yeah. Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (05:02.982)

Yeah, I think, you know, particularly the younger generation, my daughter, Chloe, as I know your daughter’s with your company, Chloe’s been with us now for six years. She’s our COO at Upanose. She’s amazing, but she’s also quite kind of KPI and kind of target focused and she wants to kind of chase down the next goal quite a bit. And I, you know, I always say that first and foremost, leadership in general, leading the game in whatever niche you’re in is not about being

John Jantsch (05:17.474)

Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (05:32.11)

everywhere. Genuinely, it’s not. It’s about being where it really matters. So you don’t have to worry about being on every platform, chasing down every goal, every verification badge that you can get and all that kind of stuff. It’s about choosing your presence with intention and working from a place of non-insecurity or no insecurity. The other thing is that

John Jantsch (05:33.409)

Mm-hmm.

@ChrisDucker (05:59.654)

I kind of like the idea. Like I’ve been saying this a lot recently, particularly to younger people. My son is 16 now and he’s, he’s a big music fan and he’s kind of creating his own music and he’s putting it up on Spotify and YouTube and all these kinds of places. And he gets like really, that I just hit 200 subscribers and you know, it just hit a thousand streams and all this kind of stuff. And I keep saying, look, you don’t need more followers. You don’t need more followers. You just need more focus, right? You’ve got to like focus on the clarity.

Don’t worry about constant content out, know, da, da, da, da, da, know, every available opportunity, like build that focus, knock out something really good on a weekly or a monthly basis. And the momentum will follow plain and simple. And so I think overall, the question is, yes, I can respect people want quick wins and they want to chase down those, those goals, but ultimately any kind of suggest or rather any kind of success that kind of, or suggest that you’re, you know,

have bad health because of it or family or start doing it from a place of non-committal joy. That’s pure sacrifice right there. That’s not success. I want my kids to be successful just like I want all my clients to be successful as well.

John Jantsch (07:13.518)

Well, before we get too much further in the show, the book is built, I mean, as all good books, you give people a, it’s not just a concept, here’s a framework. Here’s actually the steps to do it. So you want to kind of as high level as you want to go unpack what the steps are in the framework.

@ChrisDucker (07:22.482)

Yep.

@ChrisDucker (07:28.456)

Yeah. So when I first started writing the book, so this all came about out of 2021, we were in the middle of pandemic. I had a burnout, a pretty bad burnout. I was actually diagnosed with anxiety, depression, which I didn’t see coming at all. And I had phase three adrenal failure, which basically meant that my adrenal glands, which are two little glands that sit on top of your kidneys, they create cortisol, which is your stress hormone, right?

They flatlined, they weren’t creating any cortisol, so I couldn’t handle stress. And the more stress it got, the worse it got and so on and so on. So I had to take a period of time off and kind of recoup and relook at things. And I noticed when I was writing notes down, and I was doing this mostly for me at this point, not for the book, but whenever I was writing notes down or listening to a podcast or watching a video or whatever it was, talking to somebody, I noticed that the…

The notes I was taking, the things I was taking away from these discussions kept landing in four very, very distinct buckets. And they were hobbies and pastimes, which was a big one out of left field. It didn’t see that coming at all. It was love and relationships. It was personal mastery, so upgrading yourself, et cetera. And then the work that you do, right? And so I sat down and I kind of…

worked through this and looked at how we could put this into a framework when we actually started planning the book. And that’s what we did. We basically put it into this four step, if you imagine a bit of a Venn diagram, it’s the only image in the entire book. There’s one image in the whole book and this is it. And we’ve called it the long haul leader life OS or operating system. Because my mindset was, well, if our phones have got an OS, our computers have got an OS, why can’t we have an OS as well?

And so if you imagine where personal mastery and hobbies and pastimes kind of overlap, the time that we spend doing those things represents the balance that we have between our self-improvement and obviously the activities that we enjoy doing. Where hobbies and relationships and love clash, memories, right, the actual memories that we create, they reflect those meaningful

John Jantsch (09:26.488)

Mm.

@ChrisDucker (09:42.212)

experiences that we create, right, while we’re pursuing these passions and nurturing these relationships and whatnot. And then going further, where love and relationships and the work that we do, or impactful work, as I talk about it in the book, where those actually overlap, then what we’re talking about here is like, showing how meaningful work ultimately enables personal freedom, but also strengthens the relationships both at work and away from work as well. And then finally,

the personal mastery side of things and how that clashes and overlaps with the work that we do. This kind of like excites me a lot is it all comes down to the clients and they reflect the value and the influence that we generate from the people that we work with and how we apply our own expertise into our work. it’s a business book. And it’s interesting with my publisher, we have a pretty long drawn out discussion over like, how do we position this? Is it a leadership book? Is it a self-help book?

John Jantsch (10:36.536)

Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (10:40.186)

Is it personal development? it business? We ended up sticking it into a leadership category, but ultimately it’s a little bit of all of those things. And I’m kind of joking a little bit when I talk to friends about it, saying when it’s kind of part memoir, part roadmap, and that’s kind of where we’re going.

John Jantsch (10:56.142)

Well, I’ve always said that I think entrepreneurship is probably the ultimate personal development. Yeah, I mean, so, I mean, I think you could rightly call personal development or self-help even because I mean, regardless if you’re running a business, mean, almost everybody has those four areas at some level in their life, even if they’re working for a company.

@ChrisDucker (11:04.04)

it totally is. If you want to do it right.

@ChrisDucker (11:21.01)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:24.758)

All good frameworks come with a way to measure. Are we making progress? Are we setting the right priorities? How do you suggest, especially when you start getting into things like hobbies, as you’ve mentioned, mean, how do you measure like, I doing it right?

@ChrisDucker (11:39.27)

Yeah, the hobbies thing, like I said, came out of left field. I didn’t see this one coming. I, through the research that we did through the book, the people that were interviewed for the book and things like that, it was pretty apparent to me that those entrepreneurs, very specifically entrepreneurs, as well as C-suite executives and things like that, but mostly entrepreneurs that we talked to, those that had hobbies were a heck of a lot productive and more successful in their work compared to people that did not have hobbies.

John Jantsch (11:42.445)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:46.072)

John Jantsch (12:00.056)

Thanks.

@ChrisDucker (12:09.16)

I started looking into this even further and I found that creative hobbies, very specifically things like painting or anything to do with music and that kind of stuff. I’m a watercolour, nature watercolour. Yeah. And I also do bonsai as well, which is quite creative as well. Got to keep the things alive first and foremost. So the horticulture side of things comes in the play first. But yeah, so what we found with the creative hobbies was really interesting. So

John Jantsch (12:10.958)

Okay.

John Jantsch (12:16.426)

Mm-hmm. And I think you do painting, don’t you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

John Jantsch (12:29.069)

Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (12:39.036)

I went down a rabbit hole and I started looking at like, there any famous people that are like in corporate America, corporate world who have got like creative hobbies? There’s one guy we found, David Solomon, who is the CEO of Goldman Sachs. David Solomon is also known as DJ D Sol. And he is one of the most sought after dance DJs in America. Everything he makes, he gives to charity because he doesn’t need the money, obviously.

John Jantsch (12:45.26)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:00.608)

funny.

@ChrisDucker (13:08.232)

But when you look at the statistic, and this came out of a Forbes survey, I believe, that if you engage in a creative hobby as an entrepreneur or a high level executive for a minimum of two hours a week, on average, you’re looking at about a 30 % boost on your performance at work, which is pretty telling. So the overall arching message here is go get a hobby and make it a creative one, ultimately.

John Jantsch (13:29.154)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:35.618)

I mean, did the research suggest why that is though? I mean, what does it rewire your brain? Is it like give you something else to think about? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

@ChrisDucker (13:39.24)

I think it comes down to prioritizing recovery fundamentally. It’s prioritizing recovery. And that is what I’ve personally seen as well in me stepping away from work more often. The work that I do now, Monday, because I don’t work Fridays, I haven’t worked Fridays for many, years. Monday to Friday, I work 10 a.m. to 4 p.m.

So it’s not a lot of time quote unquote in the office, but I am more productive than I ever have been. And I go out on nature walks almost every day. I’m very blessed to live in the countryside here in England. So I’m out and about on nature and everything pretty regularly become a little bit of a birdwatcher. Actually, I’m the guy walking around with a big lens now in the morning, just in case something cool pops out of a bush somewhere. But on a very serious note, have noticed unreservedly noticed that

John Jantsch (14:21.048)

Mm-hmm.

@ChrisDucker (14:32.912)

I feel more confident in the work that I’m doing. I get more done. I’m hitting my KPIs. My to-do lists disappear almost on a daily, if not definitely a weekly basis. And my team started the follow suit as well. So we’re now a no work Friday company. And everybody loves that, obviously, a four day work week. And there is just something about prioritizing your recovery that allows you to become better at what you do at work.

John Jantsch (14:58.03)

I wonder sometimes too, if people like us that have their hands on a keyboard a lot of days and we’re staring into virtual cameras. I wonder if there’s also something, if we want to go down another rabbit hole to doing a hobby that uses your hands, that is analog, that really gets you away from a computer screen completely. I actually enjoy woodworking. I build furniture and things. I always say that all the time. I mean, there’s something.

about holding this thing that used to be alive, you know, this tree that used to be alive. And I think there is something physical as well as mental about that.

@ChrisDucker (15:37.224)

I went to a conference, fair. was the Global Bird Fair just last weekend. I’ll show you something on camera here. So if you’re listening on audio, sorry, you’re going to miss this. But I bought this. This is a little nut hatch. Yeah. And I paid, think probably the equivalent of about $90 US for it. But I didn’t necessarily buy it because I wanted this to sit on my desk, although it does look pretty cool.

John Jantsch (15:49.513)

yeah, yeah, a little carved nut touch, yeah.

@ChrisDucker (16:06.128)

I bought it because after talking with the sculptor for 30 minutes, I was invested in the journey. I was invested in what he was all about. This guy was retired, mid seventies, does about five hours a day in his workshop, pretty much seven days a week. Loves what he does and travels the country selling his woodwork and making a little money after retirement. But it was the joy.

John Jantsch (16:13.037)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (16:23.042)

Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (16:32.196)

in his face and his words when he spoke about doing what he did and what he loved. And there’s something to be said for that, you know?

John Jantsch (16:32.227)

haha

John Jantsch (16:38.798)

Yeah, 100%. Well, we could do a whole nother show on this. We better get back to another topic in the book that you cover a lot. And again, you use yourself, I think of stories of reinvention. there a particularly painful, people love painful stories, or is there a particularly painful one or maybe something that you got through because of maybe taking this long haul approach?

@ChrisDucker (16:43.549)

@ChrisDucker (17:06.408)

Well, I mean, it’s the burnout of 2021. know, that was, it was interesting because that year we had a phenomenal year business-wise. We made a whole bunch of money. We served probably well over 300 people within our UPINR programs, maybe even a little more actually. It was just a great year and all the work I was doing, like genuinely John, like I was loving it. Loving the work.

John Jantsch (17:08.492)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

@ChrisDucker (17:32.636)

love the people we’re working with, love doing the track, you know, everything that we were doing to kind of like, you know, turn up and train people and all the rest of it. was just a great year, but little did I know deep down, I was just wearing myself out further and further and further and further. And when you hit a rock bottom, like, like if you’d have asked me five, like seven, eight years ago, do you ever think you’ll be treated like clinically with drugs for depression, Chris? I would have called you mad, mad. Yeah. There I was.

John Jantsch (17:35.534)

you

John Jantsch (17:56.407)

Mmm, yeah.

@ChrisDucker (18:01.786)

on antidepressants for 18 months to bounce back from it. So it was very much a fish out of water situation for me. I didn’t really feel it coming all that much. And when it hit me, it hit me really, really, really hard. And I did what most kind of quite addictive personality type people do. And I kind of went all in on it. And I, you know, I went down, I went down the nutrition route, the

the whole kind of biohacking route. did a whole bunch of blood work. I started wearing a wearable to track everything from sleep and recovery and the heart rate and all the rest of it. know, red light therapy, cold plunges, saunas, PT sessions every other day, all that stuff. Because I’m like, I need to get better. Like I can’t, you know, yes, I can afford to take six months off, but my business can’t allow me to take six months off like this.

John Jantsch (18:31.97)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (18:49.933)

Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (18:57.84)

And so it was really, really, really tough. But the things that I talk about in the book are real. Double downing on things like recovering and enjoying hobbies more, spending more time with the people that you love and you respect and want to be around a lot more, focusing on learning new things as well and understanding that in order to lead, you have to continue to learn. You have to. And then really just like the…

focus of working with the right people. That was the big change that I made coming back out from it was that I was done working with the wrong type of people. When I started looking at things a lot more granularly, I realized, that guy’s a pain in the butt to deal with. This group I don’t want to work with anymore and so on so on and so on. And we fired a whole bunch of clients, hired a whole bunch of new ones and rejigged a whole bunch of different stuff that we were doing program-wise, messaging-wise.

John Jantsch (19:54.307)

Mm-hmm.

@ChrisDucker (19:54.812)

marketing language wise, everything. So that was the big, you know, the kind of the big painful story that now I’m happy to say is, you know, we’re in a much better spot than we’ve ever been.

John Jantsch (20:07.374)

So one of the things that I think this long haul approach is, and you talk about it in the book, it takes a lot of transparency. people realize that you’re in the long haul if you’re, I think you even call it leading out loud. You share the good things, you share the bad things, you share where we’re going, get everybody on the same page. How, especially for a leader, that that might feel like, wait, we don’t do that, do we?

We don’t share the books. don’t, you know, I mean, how do you get somebody to realize the value in doing that?

@ChrisDucker (20:34.279)

Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (20:40.882)

Here’s the thing, I didn’t do it either. I didn’t do it. Now, I didn’t do it mostly because I’m a stupid man and we have idiot brains, you know, most of us, but I mean, I think some of it was down to pride. You know, I’m the patriarch of my family, what, four children and an amazing family and they look up to me for pretty much everything. And I love that most days, right? And…

think part of it was that. The other part very clearly was business because people were coming to me to know how to build their business with balance and their business with profitability and purpose built in. And here I am burning out like there’s something broken here and I can’t let them know that I’m going through this. So I had to kind of almost power through it in a way. And actually it was last year when we were hanging out in Nashville.

John Jantsch (21:33.144)

Yep. Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (21:39.11)

with each other. was sitting down when our time together had finished and myself and my buddy Pat Flynn were hanging out. he and our families are very, very close families. We spent a lot of time with each other. And I hadn’t even told him. And we’re talking three years after the fact, after I was diagnosed and put on meds and all the rest of it. And when I was telling him about it, finally face to face properly that we hadn’t seen each other since the pandemic, he started tearing up and he was just like,

John Jantsch (21:53.806)

Hmm. Hmm.

@ChrisDucker (22:08.448)

believe you went through all this without telling me. Like it’s awesome that you’re on the other side of it, but like, bro, you should have told me kind of thing. know, like this is messed up. We’re supposed to be friends. So I kept it in, John, kept it all in for those two main reasons. And I’ve hated myself for it. And when I started writing the book, really got into it at around the beginning of last year, it wrapped up. We wrapped the editing up in around September last year.

John Jantsch (22:10.638)

Yes.

John Jantsch (22:20.876)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (22:36.444)

But when I really got into the writing, was like, I can go two ways here. I can continue to kind of put a bit of a cloak and smoke and mirror style here in place and kind of just skate around the edges. Or I can really open the kimono up and just, you know, just, just, just be super vulnerable and, and just give it all, just put it all out there. And which is, that’s what I decided to do.

And the folks that I’ve spoken to about the book, are half a dozen or so folks that had like an advanced PDF version a few months back before we finalized everything. They were like, man, this is like, the fact that you’re doing this is huge because people in our industry just don’t do this. This has the opportunity of genuinely, like, hopefully changing some lives, like for real, not just business lives, but like lives, lives. And so I’m glad I made the decision to be a little bit more open about it all.

John Jantsch (23:30.222)

Well, awesome. Chris, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Anywhere you want to invite people to learn more about you, your work, obviously the long haul leader.

@ChrisDucker (23:38.728)

Yeah, I mean, if anybody does want to read the book, they can preorder it at longhaulleader.com. The official publication date is September 2. And if they preorder before that date, just send us a copy of your receipt. We’ll give you a load of bonuses. All the info is on that page. And if they want to connect on me, just chrisducker.com. Nice and easy.

John Jantsch (23:57.198)

Again, appreciate you dropping by and I look forward to seeing you in Nashville soon.

@ChrisDucker (24:03.91)

Yeah, right back at you, my friend.

John Jantsch (24:05.688)

Take care.

Marketing That Connects and Converts

Marketing That Connects and Converts written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Talia Wolf, internationally recognized conversion optimization expert, keynote speaker, and founder of GetUplift. Talia shares insights from her new book, “Emotional Targeting: When Hearts Boost Sales, Own the Market,” and explains how brands can dramatically improve conversions by understanding and appealing to what customers truly feel and need. The conversation covers the art and science of emotional targeting, how to move beyond features to customer outcomes, and why authentic, emotion-driven marketing is the new CRO superpower.

About the Guest

Talia Wolf is the founder of GetUplift, an industry-leading conversion rate optimization (CRO) agency. A pioneer of emotional targeting and customer-centric marketing, Talia has helped brands worldwide boost conversions through empathy-driven messaging and design. She’s a sought-after keynote speaker, author, and educator dedicated to helping marketers use emotion to create better customer experiences and real business growth.

Website: getuplift.co
Book: taliawolf.com/book
LinkedIn: Talia Wolf

Actionable Insights

Emotional targeting means designing websites and funnels that address people’s real feelings and needs—because all buying decisions are emotional.
Most brands focus on features, pricing, and technology, but true differentiation comes from showing customers you understand their unique pains and desired outcomes.
Emotional research involves qualitative interviews, surveys, review mining, social listening, and competitor analysis to uncover what truly matters to customers.
Effective emotional targeting is never manipulative—it’s about meeting people where they already are emotionally and helping them solve real problems.
The four-step emotional targeting framework: Conduct meaningful customer research, synthesize findings into actionable insights, audit your website for emotional resonance, and run strategic, hypothesis-driven experiments (not just button tests).
A/B testing is powerful but must be rooted in customer research and hypotheses about what truly moves people—not random guesses or copying competitors.
AI can power deep analysis of customer data and reviews, but strong insights come from asking the right questions and looking for emotional themes.
Becoming an “emotional detective” gives marketers the tools to optimize every page, message, and customer interaction for real impact.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

00:48 – Defining Emotional Targeting
Talia explains how emotion drives decision-making and why CRO needs to go beyond features.
03:56 – Why Personas Don’t Tell the Whole Story
The shift from demographic segments to shared pains, needs, and emotional triggers.
05:36 – Manipulation vs. Authentic Emotional Targeting
Talia clarifies why true emotional targeting is not about fear or pressure tactics, but empathy.
07:37 – Speaking Directly to Your Ideal Customer
How Teamwork and other brands use emotional targeting to win customer loyalty.
09:43 – Addressing the Real Pain
Why acknowledging challenges (like migration or complexity) can build trust and drive conversions.
11:09 – The Four-Step Emotional Targeting Framework
Research, synthesis, auditing, and meaningful experimentation for CRO success.
14:25 – Using AI for Emotional Insights
How AI and data analysis can help surface the true voice of the customer.
16:49 – The Realities of A/B Testing
Why most tests fail—and how emotion-based hypotheses create learning and impact.
19:41 – Becoming an Emotional Detective
Talia’s call to action for marketers to dig deeper into customer feelings and motivations.

Pulled Quotes

“Emotional targeting is not manipulative. It’s about meeting people where they already are emotionally and helping them solve real problems.”
— Talia Wolf

“If you can identify the real why behind the purchase, there’s no stopping you.”
— Talia Wolf

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.767)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Talia Wolf. She’s an internationally recognized conversion optimization expert keynote speaker and founder of GetUplift, a leading CRO agency. Known for her pioneering work in emotional targeting and customer-centric marketing, Talia helps brands around the world dramatically improve conversions by focusing on what their customers truly feel and need.

We’re gonna talk about our latest book, Emotional Targeting. When hearts boost sales, own the market. So, Talia, welcome to the show.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (00:37.88)

Thank you for having me, I’m excited.

John Jantsch (00:40.499)

So let’s just define, because I imagine people would have lots of definitions for like, what is emotional targeting?

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (00:48.436)

Well, emotional targeting is the art of creating websites and funnels that appeal and address to people’s emotions. I run a conversion optimization agency and my role is to help brands increase conversions. And the emotional targeting framework is what I developed to help companies increase conversions using emotion.

because people make decisions based on emotion.

John Jantsch (01:19.125)

So let’s try to make it even more tangible. you, can you walk through a time when you, know, the typical sort of feature first, you know, web page that, you know, here’s all of our stuff and what it does. can, can you kind of walk through somebody that you were called in? You could see that was hurting their conversions and then you got them to change their language and create a better outcome.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (01:41.142)

Yeah, so we’ve done this with hundreds of brands really, but the go-to is really how we essentially see that most websites are very, very focused on pricing, features, technology, we’re powered by AI, know, that stuff, and kind of forgetting the, right, whatever, the only one platform for X or powered by AI or we’re the number one platform for something else.

John Jantsch (01:59.059)

We’re gluten free, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (02:10.826)

So everyone sounds the same and looks the same and done this with multiple companies from Strata, Identity Orchestration to Teamwork, which is a project management solution to also e-commerce sites and really a lot of different types of companies. Normally what happens is one notice that there is a very big kind of focus on highlighting the technology and the pricing. And what we’ve forgotten is that there’s people behind the screens that

are making decisions that aren’t just about integrations and the technology behind it. So what we do is we run emotional targeting research to identify why people really buy from them. So once they’ve checked the pricing and it’s like in their category and the integrations all work and that they have all the features that they made in their little shopping list, how do they make a decision? What matters to them?

How do they feel right now? What are they struggling with? What pains do they have? And how do they want to feel after finding a solution? And we map those all out onto the customer journey, and we run experiments to see if different messaging, different design, different UX can help increase conversions when we make it more customer focused about their results.

John Jantsch (03:30.207)

So, know, traditional marketing is like we have personas and we have segments and we have demographics and psychographics of our clients. you know, I think increasingly people are discovering that their best clients don’t all like fit into a persona. mean, they’re, they have a need or a problem or a pain. They may look completely different, right? So how do, how do you kind of zero in then on, on what the emotional triggers, can I use that word triggers are?

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (03:56.94)

Yeah. So I love that differentiation because, you know, we’ve been told for decades that we need to be data driven and data driven means knowing personas like their segmentation, their agenda, location, the browsers that they’re using, the devices, their age. So we kind of quantify people into segments. And then it’s really, really hard to actually write copy or choose images or know what to even say to people to convert.

But when you start zeroing in on the pains, we actually notice that most people, no matter if they’re a 70 year old man in Nebraska or a 15 year old kid from the UK, they’re all kind of experiencing the same emotional issues and they have the same pains and hesitations and concerns and they want to feel certain ways. So the way that we go about it is that we conduct research and the research is qualitative research.

which means we conduct interviews on customers. We do surveys both on customers and on visitors. And we also do something called review mining and social listening, and we do an emotional competitor analysis. So essentially we are listening to the conversations that are happening on Reddit, on LinkedIn, on Quora. We are mining through all the reviews that your competitors are getting or that books.

that are trying to solve the same thing as your product or your service are doing. And we’re listening to how people describe their problems and their issues and what’s keeping them up at night.

John Jantsch (05:36.159)

So how do you balance the fact that some emotional targeting is actually manipulative? It’s like, understand that you’re really afraid of this thing, so I’m going to make you more afraid, and that’s going to get you to buy, or I’m going to create scarcity so that you’re worried that you won’t get it. So how much of that is manipulative? How much of that is authentic?

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (06:00.504)

Thank you so much for that question. I wanna be really, really clear. Yeah, emotional targeting is not manipulative. You’re not trying to make anyone feel anything. The whole framework is based around the idea and the fact that every decision that we make in life is based on emotion and people are coming to our websites already feeling things.

Our role and our job as marketers is to relate to them, to appeal to the emotions that they’re already feeling and help solve those problems. Anyone who is trying to manipulate people, trying to scare or fear mongering or anything is not emotional targeting. Emotional targeting is really just understanding the underlying emotions that are already there, appealing to them and creating an experience

that answers people’s questions and actually helps them.

John Jantsch (07:01.801)

Yeah. So, you, in a lot of ways that the ultimate test is you want the reader to go, you got me. I mean, would that, would that be accurate? Yeah.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (07:08.066)

Yes, and I think that’s the point because as yeah, like as I mentioned before, at the end of the day, once we’ve gone through our shopping list of the mandatory stuff, we’re left with trying to decide, okay, but how do I make a decision between product A, B and C that all look the same, all have the same features, all have the same technology and more or less the same pricing, it’s down to that emotional hook. Does this company solve the particular specific problem that people like

John Jantsch (07:16.979)

Mm-hmm.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (07:37.934)

like me have, and we’ve seen this a lot. So even with Teamwork, for example, which is a project management solution, can everyone in the world use their project management solution? Absolutely, they have an incredible product. But if you are a person, a company that serves clients, so if you face clients, if you are an agency, a consultant, if you are a creative team that serves clients and you have retainers and

projects that are client facing, Teamwork is the best product for you. And they’ve done everything in their product and in their marketing to make sure that when you are an agency owner and you land on their website, you know that Teamwork was designed for your kind of work. And you know that because they’re talking about their specific problems that agency owners and project managers and agencies and client facing teams face.

every single day, which is profitability, knowing if you’re profitable or not, knowing if Pam on accounting is actually doing her work or not. So you could just say, we have great reporting, which is what everyone does. But teamwork and the work that we’ve done with them over the years has really helped solidify the fact that when someone comes in, they can clearly see that this product was built for them for the work that they do that solves their particular issues and problems.

And I think a lot of companies are scared to do that, because you’re afraid to eliminate potential buyers. But we don’t understand that by speaking to everyone, we’re actually alienating the people that actually would buy from us, would stay with us, and would continue to buy from us.

John Jantsch (09:21.129)

You know, one of the things I really, admire is when a company admits like this part of the process is going to be hard, you know, let’s just face it. It’s, know, and they really honest about that. We recently went shopping for a new email service provider CRM and category that is like you said, I mean, line them all up and they all say the same thing. however, the company we went with.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (09:29.579)

Yeah.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (09:40.782)

Yep.

John Jantsch (09:43.589)

was the company that spent the greatest amount of time telling us how hard it is to migrate, but that they were going to be with us every step of the way. And they were not even going to charge you until we’ve migrated you. And that was the deal for us because when you look at them on the surface, they all seem to do the same thing. But our pain was, it’s a pain in the butt to switch. And that was their focus.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (10:06.476)

I love that and I think the fact that they recognize that because I talk a lot in my book about the unconscious and the subconscious stuff. So there’s things that we say that we think like, it’s the pricing, it’s the feature or, actually underlying that is so many fears. Like what if I migrate all our emails and something happens and a freak accident happens and everything gets deleted and everything gets lost. Like that’s a real fear. What if I onboard a product

John Jantsch (10:32.693)

Yeah, yeah.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (10:35.5)

and everyone hates it and thinks, you know, I failed. There’s so many emotions involved in a process like that. So actually knowing and saying, hey, look, this is hard, this sucks. We know you’ve tried all of these other things, but we’re gonna help you. We’re gonna be there every step of the way. That’s knowing your audience and understanding their pains. And that’s incredible.

John Jantsch (10:39.903)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:56.565)

Yeah. So we’ve gotten halfway through and I haven’t actually asked you to outline. You have a, I think it’s in chapter two, a four step emotional targeting framework. So, without giving everything away here, you probably ought to at least set up the four steps.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (11:09.335)

Hahaha!

Okay, so there’s four steps. The first step is running meaningful research, customer research, which I kind of spoke about before, but in the book, I really explain how to run this research and how to actually ask the right questions, how to know how much information to actually collect. The second step is synthesizing the research. And this is actually really important because a lot of the times we’re collecting a ton of data, but we don’t know how to…

Turn it into actual insights that we can use So I talk about the different emotional triggers the most common emotional triggers that people have how to put it into different buckets How do I identify when something’s a pain when something’s a trigger when something’s more of a desired outcome? in step number three

We take all of our research and we audit our website. And this is super important because when we think about a CRO audit, we think, okay, I’ll do a heuristic analysis. I’ll check that I have one CTA and not two. But when I talk about an audit, I’m actually talking about an emotional targeting audit, which is a set of questions that you ask yourself to, it’s strategic questions. Am I appealing on an emotional level? Can people clearly see their specific pains reflected?

Can people see what’s in it for them? So there’s a set of questions that you ask yourself and you kind of make a check for every time you’ve done that. And I think what’s incredible here before I get to the full step is that the hardest part in conversion optimization isn’t running tests and isn’t identifying where the problem is. It’s knowing what the heck is wrong and what changes should I make on a page? When you’ve done this research and you start doing the audit,

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (12:57.866)

It’s incredible how quickly you can see the problems. we’re using stories that don’t resonate. We’re highlighting features people don’t care about. We’re talking about outcomes people don’t care about. So it’s so much easier to understand why people aren’t converting and come up with hypothesis, which leads us to step number four, which is running meaningful tests. That’s when we say, okay, my hypothesis is let’s say people can’t…

clearly and easily see that this product was built for them. So now I’m going to try and show this on the page, on my comparison page, on my homepage, in my navigation, and I’m going to see if by weaving in stories and testimonials and the features that people care about, will that increase conversions? So we do research, synthesizing, emotional audit, and running meaningful experiments that aren’t button tests.

John Jantsch (13:49.033)

Okay.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (13:55.01)

but are actually strategic so that you can learn from them even if you don’t increase conversions.

John Jantsch (14:01.407)

You know, you talked about reviews and, you know, looking at reviews, analysis, looking at questions on core room thing and things, you know, we have found over the years that, that, that, you know, the, best messaging usually comes up right out of the mouth of a customer. and it’s in their voice, their words, it’s probably not stuff that we think is that sexy, but it’s like what they’re really feeling. And, and it’s amazing. And,

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (14:15.81)

Yes.

John Jantsch (14:25.609)

What are we 14 minutes in? I’m first mentioned of AI. But one of the things that AI has really done, I think is, you a lot of people are using it for writing, but it does amazing analysis. So now you can take tons and tons of data. You take all your sales call transcripts and just dump them all in there. And it’s going to be able to synthesize, you know, here’s the themes.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (14:47.342)

100%, you know, garbage in garbage out. So if you can only feed AI with segmentation and raw data, that’s what you’re going to get back. And when you’re trying to write copy with it, and that’s the information you fed it, you’re going to get really bad copy. But other than that, you’re going to get really bad insights. When you feed it valuable insights, and you ask the right questions in AI, and you’re asking it to, hey, tell me what are the top

John Jantsch (15:16.629)

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (15:16.654)

three pains people mention from this thousands, like 1000 answers in my customer survey, what are the top three pains people mentioned? When you ask the right questions and you have really valuable data, that’s when you get the magic. That’s when you get incredible things from AI that you can actually use. And then you can also use it for writing copy. But what’s happening right now is people are just, you know, using basically feeding it garbage data.

And then that’s why when you go online and you’re searching for any kind of solution, everything looks the same and you could probably just swap out logos and you wouldn’t even know the difference.

John Jantsch (15:54.385)

Yeah, no question. In fact, I contend you could probably blank out all the logos of five different websites and then see if people in any of those companies can identify theirs. Because they’ll even read everybody else’s and theirs and go, I don’t know. So talk a little bit about A-B testing, because I think that’s a category that is so valuable, but so under your.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (16:12.6)

easy.

John Jantsch (16:21.429)

because a lot of people go, this is our best shot, put it out there. Why isn’t it working? You know, as opposed to, you know, and again, you know, one of the promises of AI is all of sudden now we’ve got potential for dynamic and personalization to where, you know, people can actually come and hear the message that we believe will be relevant to them. So why aren’t people doing more testing? A and B, guess would be part of that question would be how to do it effectively.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (16:49.986)

Well, testing is hard, right? It’s really, really hard. Like it’s not actually easy if we go back to like being honest and telling our customers. Avery testing is hard, but I think it’s also hard for most people because we’re on a hamster wheel. And I talk about this a bit about this in my book, that

John Jantsch (16:51.945)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:57.575)

Well, no, forget it. I want the magic pill. Give me the magic pill.

John Jantsch (17:09.439)

Yeah.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (17:13.922)

When we start A-B testing, we’re kind of just guess working our way around it and we’re Googling or searching on AI for best practices and we’re copying our competitors. And then we throw stuff on this like whatever tool that we’re using and we’re like, it doesn’t even work. It doesn’t even increase conversion. So why am I even wasting my time? And that’s because we’re running meaningless tests with no strategy behind it. Not to mention, obviously the fact that you have to get everyone on board when it comes to A-B testing, you have to sell your ideas.

There’s a lot of pushback. always a lot of like politics inside the organization and it’s just hard. But actually this is why emotional targeting is so great because when you are doing the hard research and you finally have a good hypothesis, you can A, get internal buy-in really quickly because you could say, look, guys, I’ve done the research. Here’s what our customers and our prospects are saying. And here’s what we’re saying on our website. Like we’re completely missing the mark.

I have an idea, I’m not gonna do a homepage redesign, don’t worry, but I’m gonna send out a few emails and I’m just gonna check this or I’m gonna test this on a landing page and let’s just see. So first you get buy-in. Second, when you run emotion-based tests that are based on a real hypothesis, a meaningful hypothesis, whether you increase conversions or not, you’re going to learn something.

Now, if you’re just testing a blue versus a red button and it decreases conversions or increases conversions, there’s nothing you can do with this test. Like you can’t actually say, I’m gonna change all my buttons to red now. Like there’s nothing to actually do with it. But when you learn that, let’s say, my prospects are deeply impacted by their social image. They really care about what other people think about them and buying this product.

makes other people think a different way about them and this matters. You can weave that into your ads, your emails, your landing pages, your comparison page, like everything. So I think the reason it’s so hard is again, like we’re just running meaningless tests. It’s technically hard. You need a lot of people, you need a lot of buy-in, but if you do it the right way, it’s super rewarding and you can break all those silos in the company and say, look, we tested this, we learned this. Hey, sales team, you should be using this content. Hey,

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (19:31.79)

product team, we’re learning that people really care about it. You should be talking about this product this way and this feature this way. Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:41.533)

It is pretty amazing. know, over the years it’s part, it’s largely accidental on my part, but over the years, you know, we’ll change something because it’s not working. And then all of sudden it’s like, all we did was change the headline. And now everybody’s like booking appointments. It’s like magical. It’s unbelievable. So, so you end the book with a call to action, to employing people, imploring people to become emotional detectives.

So how does that play out in your work?

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (20:18.51)

Well, most of all work when we become emotional detectives is doing the research and really identifying those emotions and why people buy because I truly believe that if we whatever you’re selling, if you can identify the real why behind the purchase, there’s no stopping you. There’s nothing you won’t be able to do in terms of optimizing every single page.

and asset that you create. the book and my website and my courses and, and, know, the consulting, the agency, everything is about helping teams become emotional detectives, getting to understand more about their customers than just their behavioral data, but really understanding the people behind the screens so that they can create user experiences and websites that people want to convert to and actually like.

John Jantsch (21:17.269)

I’ll tell you, appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there some place you’d invite people to connect with you, learn about your work, obviously learn about the book?

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (21:25.26)

Yeah, well you can get the book at taliawolf.com slash book or you can follow me on LinkedIn. I’m happy to connect. And also on our website, get uplift.co, which is my agency.

John Jantsch (21:38.901)

Again, thanks for spending a few moments with us. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (21:43.95)

Thank you for having me.

Helping Stakeholders Help Themselves

Helping Stakeholders Help Themselves written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch talks with Bill Shander, information designer, data communications expert, and founder of Beehive Media. Bill shares insights from his new book, “Stakeholder Whispering: Uncover What People Need Before Doing What They Ask.” The conversation covers how to turn complex data into clear, actionable stories, the importance of questioning order-taking, and why active listening and genuine curiosity are the keys to building trust and delivering what stakeholders truly need. Listeners will learn practical strategies for stakeholder engagement, leadership, and data-driven decision-making in the age of AI.

About the Guest

Bill Shander is a data communications expert, information designer, and founder of Beehive Media. With over 25 years of experience, he has helped leading organizations—including the United Nations, World Bank, and Deloitte—turn complex ideas into clear, actionable stories. Bill is a recognized thought leader in data visualization, storytelling, and stakeholder engagement, and is the author of “Stakeholder Whispering: Uncover What People Need Before Doing What They Ask.”

Website: billshander.com
LinkedIn: Bill Shander

Actionable Insights

Data storytelling is about communicating meaning and insight, not just sharing numbers and reports.
Order-taking leads to missed opportunities; real value comes from questioning, listening, and guiding stakeholders to what they truly need.
Active listening, curiosity, and asking better questions are essential for building trust and uncovering stakeholders’ real objectives.
Silence is a powerful tool for reflection and better conversation—embrace the pause to allow deeper thinking.
Stakeholder engagement applies to all roles, not just marketing—including HR, IT, and leadership.
Recognize and prioritize all stakeholders—sometimes the real goals and needs come from several layers up in the organization.
In hybrid and remote work environments, intentional communication and Socratic questioning are even more important.
Organizational culture and leadership openness determine how effective “stakeholder whispering” can be—seek or build a culture that values questioning and strategic thinking.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

00:45 – What is a Data Communication Expert?
Bill explains the importance of storytelling and visualization in making data meaningful.
01:44 – Why Stakeholder Whispering Matters More Than Ever
Why questioning and guiding stakeholders is critical in the age of AI and short attention spans.
04:28 – Beyond Order-Taking: Leading with Questions
Bill shares why challenging requests and using a consultative approach delivers better results.
07:41 – The Power of Active Listening and Curiosity
Tips for asking better questions and truly hearing stakeholders’ needs.
09:16 – Silence is Golden
The value of pausing, reflection, and pacing in communication and presentations.
10:28 – Common Pitfalls: Mistaking Tasks for Outcomes
Why focusing only on what’s requested misses the real goals.
12:58 – Recognizing the Real Stakeholders
How to identify and prioritize who really matters in any project or initiative.
15:13 – Culture, Leadership, and Whisperability
The role of culture and leadership in fostering open, strategic conversations.
17:01 – Adapting Stakeholder Engagement to Hybrid and Remote Work
Why face-to-face or Socratic dialogue is essential for discovering true needs.
18:58 – Real-World Example: The Power of Questioning Assumptions
Bill tells a client story where open-ended questioning led to a far better outcome.

Pulled Quotes

“Our job is not just to execute tasks—it’s to succeed and help our organization succeed. That means probing, questioning, and challenging the status quo.”
— Bill Shander

“Active listening, curiosity, and asking the right questions are what build trust and uncover what stakeholders really need.”
— Bill Shander

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.878)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Bill Shander. He’s a data communications expert, information designer and founder of Beehive Media. Over 25 years of experience, Bill has helped leading organizations, including United Nations, World Bank and Deloitte turn complex ideas into clear, actionable stories. We’re going to talk about his latest book today, Stakeholder Whispering, Uncover What People Need.

before doing what they ask. So Bill, welcome to the show.

Bill Shander (00:34.34)

Thank you, John. I’m really happy to be here.

John Jantsch (00:36.736)

So I just, sometimes people have things in their bios that I have to ask about. So what does a data communication expert do?

Bill Shander (00:45.654)

That’s a good question. So, you know, everybody these days has data, whether it’s your sales data, your marketing data, your HR data, everybody has data. We’re always packaging it up in PowerPoint presentations to present to our bosses or reports for the board or whoever. And people don’t really do a very good job of it either because they’re not really thinking about communicating ideas. They’re worried about shoving numbers at people. And so I help people.

John Jantsch (01:09.314)

Yeah. Right.

Bill Shander (01:12.216)

tell stories of data, as well as visualize that data in an impactful way.

John Jantsch (01:16.462)

Yeah. And I think there’s probably a lot of people, myself included, that I want to hear the story. Like, what does this data mean? you know, rather than just saying, look, we got this much traffic. Okay. Is that good? Is that bad? Yeah. So what inspired you to write the book? I mean, is there, is there something going on today, you know, in the business world that you think it makes this idea more critical?

Bill Shander (01:22.553)

Yeah.

Bill Shander (01:29.014)

Exactly. How many clicks is good? Are clicks even useful? We don’t know.

Bill Shander (01:44.378)

That’s a good question. I don’t know if today it’s more critical in that this has always been an issue, honestly. I’ve been looking at it for 30 years and took me a long time to realize that this is the thing. Like I’ve been thinking about doing a book for a long time and this was finally the idea of the nugget that said, yes, this must be done. It’s been an issue that’s been around forever. Is it more important today than ever? I would say maybe possibly because of AI. mean, okay, we’re already talking about AI, know, it’s 2025, of course you have to, but.

Honestly, when you ask AI to do something, it just does it. AI is an order taker. And we as humans, what can we do better than AI today? Maybe we can still discern, what really should be done? And maybe we can ask good follow-up questions on all the kinds of things that I talk about in the book that we have to do in order to make sure we’re delivering against the right tasks. AI is just going to do it. So it’s even more important for that reason.

John Jantsch (02:19.064)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (02:38.198)

Yeah. You know, it’s interesting. mean, I think you can make a case for being more important today and in some ways, because what you mentioned AI actually allows us to crunch a lot more data than we ever would have been able to in some cases. so we certainly have that even the smallest of companies have access now to big crunching. But I think also, I noticed a lot of people, stakeholders included, you know, have much shorter attention spans. And so,

Bill Shander (02:57.082)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:04.258)

You know, that 27 page PowerPoint deck, you know, can be condensed into a story or a metaphor. You know, that might actually be a better way to present the information.

Bill Shander (03:15.748)

Well, that’s it. so stakeholder whispering is, you the basic idea is your stakeholders ask you to do things based on their automated response. How do we usually do it? Well, usually we put it to 27 page PowerPoint deck together. And the problem is to what you said, you know, first of all, attention spans are shrinking a hundred other reasons why that may not be the best solution. But on top of that, like,

I mean, they don’t even know what they need. They’re just going to go with the automated response. And so our job as workers, and it doesn’t matter what role you’re in, if it’s marketing, great, but HR people need this, IT people, finance, et cetera. Whatever we’re working on, we need to question the ask, know, question that automated response. Maybe it is a PowerPoint deck that’s needed, or maybe not to your point.

John Jantsch (04:03.928)

So you mentioned the word order taking, know, I actually, ironically, somebody just said this to me the other day. We have to, you know, we have to sell them what they want so that we can get the trust to sell them what they need. You’ve probably heard that before and you’re kind of advocating for the idea that, no, we need to lead them to what they need and not, you know, and maybe use numbers to help do that. Talk a little more about that idea of beyond order taking.

Bill Shander (04:15.502)

Yeah. Yeah.

Bill Shander (04:28.738)

Yeah. And what you just said is also true, right? Like you do have to gain trust before you can lead them effectively. But yes, the fact is our stakeholders don’t know what they need and our job is to guide them. I often say it’s like therapy. I have a whole chapter in the book about how to conduct a therapy session because it is very much like therapy. Someone comes to a therapist because they have an issue and they need help. And the therapist doesn’t tell them what to do.

They ask them questions. say, well, how does that make you feel? Right? And the questions, right. And the questions allow you to look inside yourself and say, wait, yeah. How does that make me feel? And so in work, okay, you know, we’re launching a new product marketing, make us a brochure. Okay. You know, why would a brochure be better than an app or better than this, that, or the other? Huh? Yeah. Maybe, maybe we should do an app. that introspective opportunity is what guides us down the road towards maybe another option.

John Jantsch (04:56.406)

Yeah. Why do we want that?

Bill Shander (05:24.634)

you know, when you’re new, like you’re in a new role, new boss, whatever, you haven’t gained that trust yet, maybe all you do is you try one thing, one question, which is, the question could be, how do we measure success? How are we gonna know this is gonna, when this has worked, how are we gonna measure that? And just that one question, it’s not gonna get them all the way to some new way of thinking maybe.

but it’s an initial ask. It’s at least one step beyond overtaking. And then over time, you’ll gain more trust and you’ll be able to sort of expand on that guidance way of thinking about it.

John Jantsch (05:58.144)

You know, what I have found is, is that’s a, that’s an incredible technique in selling. you know, a lot of times people will come to us and say, want this, listen, this. and if, if we have the posture or the courage to back up and say what you said, how will that, how will we know that’s successful? What would success look like? How are we going to measure that? have you considered, I find a lot of times people will put their guard down then and like, we’re going to actually have a conversation about.

Bill Shander (06:04.793)

It is.

John Jantsch (06:26.764)

what we should be doing, I don’t have to pretend I know what to tell you to do. And I find it very disarming in a sales conversation. I mean, not to the level of being obnoxious, you know what I mean? But definitely to the level of saying, let’s think about insights instead of actions.

Bill Shander (06:30.658)

Right.

Bill Shander (06:36.42)

Totally, you’re building trust.

Bill Shander (06:40.9)

Yeah.

Bill Shander (06:45.806)

Yeah, you’re building trust the moment you do that, especially in the sales context when there’s, there’s that built in lack of trust in a way. And on top of that, you know, what, what I found in my career, the only success I’ve had in my career is because I was good at the skills, stakeholder whispering. And, know, part of that is no question. It’s the consultative approach. I’m not here.

to sell you widgets, I’m here to solve your problems. I’m here to actually help you succeed. And when you really honestly are doing that, then that includes, yeah, that asking questions like that, will lead to the right solution, not just a solution that puts dollars in my pocket.

John Jantsch (07:22.552)

So of course you’re implying that you have to actually care about getting them a result, right? Yeah. So we’ve covered one side of it, asking better questions, but what role does actually being a better listener play in this?

Bill Shander (07:26.818)

You do. You have to care and you have to be curious. Those are two things that go sort of hand in hand.

Bill Shander (07:41.848)

Yeah, active listening is something is a phrase people talk about. But do you really listen? know, and you know, what’s interesting is like, here we are, we’re having, of course, and like, you’re an interviewer in this context, and you have to do that, right? And like, when I’m talking to a client, I got to be taking notes, I got to be thinking about my next question, response, or you can’t avoid some some of that. But at the same time,

John Jantsch (07:49.07)

No, I’m thinking about the next question I’m going to ask.

Bill Shander (08:07.61)

What I encourage people to do is as best you can within that reality, you try to really listen. And a friend of mine just recently told me his phrase is, listen with your ears, not your brain. So really hear, and yeah, you’re gonna jot notes, you’re gonna notice a little trigger word, they said X, put a little circle on that, whatever, but don’t start formulating your next question as much as you can avoid it until they stop. Truly listen for that whole time.

John Jantsch (08:18.766)

Mm-hmm.

Bill Shander (08:35.354)

It’s really hard to do. None of us could do it perfectly, but we can strive towards that ideal.

John Jantsch (08:41.132)

I think it’s a little bit cultural too. think, you know, Americans are just like, we need noise. They’re like silence, you know, just kills us, right? I read a study the other day that said Americans, I think the average like silence before they become very uncomfortable is three seconds. And in Japan, it is very common for somebody to get asked a question and to literally wait for eight seconds before answering to give it thought and to give it, you know,

Bill Shander (08:50.702)

Yeah.

Bill Shander (09:04.536)

Wow.

John Jantsch (09:08.486)

emotion and I thought, you know, that’s probably I mean, most people if I sat here for eight seconds of dead air, people were like, what’s wrong? It’s pretty interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

Bill Shander (09:16.495)

Yeah.

So I have a chapter called Silence is Golden. And not only do I talk about that, but even the chapter, the book is put on the pages in a way that each page is just one sentence with silence all around it. Because it is that important, but it is uncomfortable, it’s true.

John Jantsch (09:29.42)

Yeah. Funny. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve taken I’ve do some public speaking and I’ve taken some training on that and frequently a coach or something will say no let that pause let that sit let the audience digest that boy when you’re up on stage it’s like can I do it. It’s really hard. It’s funny. So so what are the

Bill Shander (09:55.186)

It is, but yeah, good, Go ahead. No, I was just gonna say, yeah, that strategic performance, which includes pauses, silence, pacing. I can speak really quickly and I can slow it down. And that has an effect on your audience for sure. Whether it’s an audience of one stakeholder or a room full of people.

John Jantsch (09:59.084)

Go ahead and finish, sir.

John Jantsch (10:15.278)

Right. So what are, let’s go with the negative. What are the common mistakes that people make? They might get the essence of this book and then charge in. What are some of the things that you see are pitfalls?

Bill Shander (10:28.312)

I mean, you one of the biggest problems people face is that they think that their job is to do what their boss tells them to do. And like on paper, there’s some truth to that, but, clients, not just bosses, clients, investors, whoever your stakeholders are, there’s a broad range of them. Obviously your job is to execute on tasks for your organization, but it’s not just to be that order taker that we talked about. So you have to, the most important thing I’m hoping people remember after reading the book.

is that they just need to do this. Like, see the world in a new way. Your job is not to execute those tasks your boss tells you to do. Your job is to succeed and help your organization succeed. And that includes probing. know, just asking, is this the right thing to be doing? Is this the right way to be doing that thing? So, step number one, acknowledge that this is a thing and just try to do something about it.

Another challenge is that some people are less whisperable than others, right? Some bosses are not so even into having these long conversations, like, you know, just do what I said, right? And obviously that takes confidence to push back and really engage your stakeholders, which also of course takes trust like we talked about. And I would say one of the third things is that, you know, it’s challenging for

John Jantsch (11:33.614)

you

Bill Shander (11:53.004)

ourselves, just sort of acknowledge to ourselves that, you know, essentially we’re all walking around being driven by our subconscious. We’re like literally all of our lives is driven by our subconscious. Tons of research shows us that we’re not very good at reasoning. We’re not really very good at deliberative thinking. We’re just being driven by our subconscious. And so if we can just think about ways to tap into the subconscious, yes, even in work, it’s like therapy, then we’re all going to do a better job doing what we need to do for.

ourselves and our organizations. And it is for ourselves also, like you’re going to be promoted if you’re the one who actually challenges the status quo, brings strategic thinking to the table and delivers against that. know duct tape marketing, the basic idea, right, is be strategic, don’t just execute on tasks, right? And so it’s a very similar way of thinking.

John Jantsch (12:40.782)

So I’m curious, have you ever considered children to be stakeholders that we have to whisper to? As I heard you say that, just do what I said. was like, that’s probably not the most current way of thinking about parenting, it?

Bill Shander (12:46.382)

They certainly could be. Yeah. I mean, and that’s

Bill Shander (12:58.264)

Yeah. And actually brings up the fourth really important thing to be thinking about and a risk, you know, a problem with this is that we don’t recognize, acknowledge, define, and prioritize all of the stakeholders. Right? So my boss tells me to do something, I do it. I am thinking my one stakeholder is my boss. No.

Your boss asked you to do that because his boss asked him and his boss, her boss. And so it’s four chains deep. And by the way, the board of directors is going to show this to their investors. Like the stakeholder list is actually this long. And now you can’t worry about all of them, but which ones are the two or the three whose opinions and actual goals really matter the most. Really zoom in on those ones and really make sure you understand their actual needs.

Like if it’s ultimately about the investors, even though your boss has you do it, they’re the real stakeholder. So make sure you understand what they really need and make sure your boss understands that they’re his stakeholder. And so that they’re involved in that stakeholder whispering with them.

John Jantsch (14:01.176)

So that brings up an interesting quant. How do you balance the fact that the objective might be to create a better experience for the customer? However, what my boss is doing, my objective has to be to keep my job. And so now I’m kind of torn between that. This isn’t really the right approach for that stakeholder. But if I want to meet this objective, how do you balance that?

Bill Shander (14:26.49)

Yeah, it’s the million dollar question. It’s hard one, right? So like some bosses, some people are not going to be very whisperable. And yeah, you could jeopardize your job with that person theoretically. I would say long term, most of the time, if you serve the customer, you’re not going to jeopardize your job.

John Jantsch (14:31.598)

Yeah.

Bill Shander (14:47.884)

and everything’s going to be for the better. Like you’re going to be the one who gets promoted. You’re going to take your boss’s job, right? Essentially, because you’re going to really solve problems. Should. Occasionally it won’t. And you either are willing to face that risk for the potential reward and or if your boss isn’t whisperable, guess what? I say, find a new boss, right? Because that’s really honestly the answer. You don’t want to work in a culture like that.

John Jantsch (14:52.782)

should work that way, right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:07.362)

me. Right.

John Jantsch (15:13.09)

Like so many, I would put this book into a leadership category. Hopefully that jives a little bit with what you’re thinking. And it seems like most leadership ideas really start with the culture of the organization.

Bill Shander (15:22.51)

Yeah, definitely.

Bill Shander (15:29.166)

They definitely do. Yeah. And I have a chapter at the end, which is called some love for my stakeholders or some love for the stakeholders. And I talk about the fact is first of all, I do, I love my stakeholders and it’s not just like blowing smoke. I’ve really enjoyed the work that I’ve done for the last 30 plus years. I’ve enjoyed working with the vast majority of my clients and I really, am curious and I do care and I want to help them. And so.

When I think, when I talk to them in the book, I say, first of all, thank you for teaching me for all these years how to do what I do. But then I also do turn the page a little bit on them and say, okay, now you may be reading this because you’re a middle manager. Guess what? You’re somebody else’s boss, aren’t you? Also, you are somebody’s stakeholder today, even though you’re thinking of as the order taker. So how whisperable are you? And so companies need to develop the culture where they create.

know, cultures of whisperability. And I have some clients who have amazing cultures where they, listen to me, they listen to their employees. It’s not about hierarchy or anything else. And I’ve worked for, you know, as a vendor for some companies that were really not whisperable at all. And I didn’t work for them for, for very long for a variety of reasons, but it’s really hard to be in that type of environment.

John Jantsch (16:45.262)

You have a chapter about, I mean, so many people are working either hybrid or remote or does that change kind of the framework at all or the structure or does it just add kind of another layer of complexity?

Bill Shander (17:01.978)

think it adds another layer complexity for sure because communications is harder, right? Like right now, I’m not looking at you, I’m looking at my camera, but the viewer is looking at my eyes. So at least there’s some eye contact it feels like happening. And so, you know, when it’s all on Zoom, it’s harder to have that real, really productive conversation, certainly better, you know, the body language and all kinds of other things disappear. So there’s definitely that added complexity.

But the process is still the same. You’ve got to have conversations. You’ve got to ask good questions. And something we didn’t talk about, but there’s a key part to the question asking, which is when I ask my stakeholders questions, I’m not doing it to learn the answers. It’s actually the other way around. It’s more of a Socratic dialogue. I’m asking them questions so that they can learn the answers. I want them to figure out what they actually need from me. I’m not trying to guide them. I’m not trying to tell them. I want them to figure it out. It’s like therapy.

John Jantsch (17:44.483)

Yes.

Bill Shander (17:58.848)

Once they figure it out, then I’ll do that. And so the question asking is a very, it’s a two-way street for sure, but the goal is really to help them learn as much as to help me learn.

John Jantsch (18:11.406)

Yeah, you you call it therapy, but it really strikes me. It’s a lot like coaching in some ways. mean, you’re almost coaching people to think about things that maybe haven’t even considered. know, one of my favorite phrases or least favorite phrases is, that’s the way we’ve always done it. Or that’s the way everybody in our industry does it. And, you know, just to even say, anybody ask why? So we’ve always done it that way. It’s amazing how often people will go, you know, I don’t know.

Bill Shander (18:16.591)

Yeah.

Bill Shander (18:28.515)

Right.

Yeah.

Bill Shander (18:36.697)

you

Bill Shander (18:41.55)

Yeah, it’s true.

John Jantsch (18:41.586)

the answer to that. So do you have any in the book or anything you want to anybody you’ve worked with clients that you’ve worked with kind of a real story or example where you know stakeholder whispering has really led to a far better outcome.

Bill Shander (18:58.99)

Yeah, I I tell one story in the book and it’s funny on the surface. It’s a really boring story. It’s not the most dynamic anecdote in the history of the world at all, but it’s one of the most, the moment when this happened was like really eyeopening for me. so was working on project. was doing this data dashboard essentially for this client and we’re having this conversation about whether we should show the rank position.

of countries on this one metric being measured. So this country is number one, two, three, four, five, or should we show the actual score they got on this measurement? So let’s imagine it’s about web analytics. Should we show the number of clicks they got or just the ranking in terms of clicks? And their argument was the way this type of data usually works, the way it’s always been done, is we always just show the rank because people care if their country ahead or behind their favorite country that they want to compete against. But the scores…

John Jantsch (19:37.526)

Thank

Bill Shander (19:55.364)

were universally really, really high. Very few countries had a low score. So you might’ve been ranked 150th. That looks terrible, that sounds awful. But guess what? You had a super high score, just like everybody else. Only a few countries were actually bad. And so was trying to make the case that maybe we should show the actual score because the fact that this country was ranked low didn’t mean they had an actual problem. And so the data…

John Jantsch (20:17.184)

Yeah, they could close 50 places pretty easily.

Bill Shander (20:20.886)

Exactly. They could close it easily and it didn’t matter where they were anyways, as long as they were above X score. And so, you know, I’m asking all these questions. We’re having this really long debate and she almost convinced me five times. I almost convinced her five times. But the point was, you know, it was a very open ended conversation, mostly each of us asking each other questions. and in the end, you know, there was this one moment where she said just literally, she said the word something to the effect of, I never saw it that way before.

John Jantsch (20:24.59)

Yeah.

Bill Shander (20:50.446)

You’re right. And it wasn’t gratifying because I was right, although that’s nice, you know, but it was really because there was this moment of just incredible open-mindedness to your point. Like, why have we always done it that way? Who the hell knows? Like, well, why should we do it that way? Maybe we should consider, maybe we won’t change it, but maybe we should at least look at doing it this other way. And even that I consider a win.

John Jantsch (20:50.819)

Thanks.

John Jantsch (21:15.222)

Yeah, awesome. Well, Bill, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the show. You want to invite people to connect with you somewhere, find out more about your work, obviously find out more about stakeholder risk.

Bill Shander (21:26.136)

Yeah, you can always find me on my website, BillShander.com. And I’m always happy to connect with people on LinkedIn as well.

John Jantsch (21:32.3)

Well again, I appreciate you stopping by. Hopefully we’ll see you one of these days out there on the road.

Bill Shander (21:36.794)

Thank you very much, John. Nice talking to you.

SEO’s Next Era: Manick Bhan on AI, Content Strategy, and Building a Brand That Lasts

SEO’s Next Era: Manick Bhan on AI, Content Strategy, and Building a Brand That Lasts written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Manick Ban, founder and CTO of Search Atlas—a next-generation SEO and content marketing platform. Manick shares his journey from building RankPay to scaling Search Atlas, and explains why the future of SEO depends on actionable insights, platform integration, and building a brand people trust. The conversation covers the evolution of search, the impact of AI, why high-intent content matters more than ever, and how marketers can thrive in a landscape that’s constantly being disrupted.

About the Guest

Manick Bhan is the founder and CTO of Search Atlas, an advanced SEO and content marketing platform used by over 20,000 websites and 5,000 agencies. A serial entrepreneur and engineer, Manick previously founded RankPay and is widely respected as a thought leader in the SEO industry. He’s known for his innovative approach to search, actionable advice for marketers, and commitment to helping brands drive measurable growth.

- Website: searchatlas.com

YouTube: Search Atlas Channel

Actionable Insights

The future of SEO is about driving real change—not just reporting on data. Tools need to accelerate action, not just provide analytics.
AI is transforming search: Conversion rates from AI-powered search (like ChatGPT) are significantly higher than traditional search.
Marketers must focus on high-intent, core topic content that matches their business’s primary value—not just generic informational posts.
Over-diversifying topics can dilute your site’s authority and harm rankings. Clear focus and topical relevance are critical.
“Quantity” content strategies are quickly becoming obsolete; quality, brand authority, and community matter most in the new search landscape.
Rented platforms (Google, LinkedIn, YouTube) will always be a reality for marketers—so invest in building a brand people seek out directly.
In an era of information overload and AI-generated content, real-world community and peer recommendations are becoming more valuable.
Entrepreneurs should embrace failure early and often—consistent effort and learning lead to long-term success.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

01:03 – Why Search Atlas? Building Tools for Action, Not Just Analytics
Manick explains why he built Search Atlas to help marketers move beyond reporting and actually drive site changes.
03:03 – The Truth About “SEO is Dead” Headlines
Why search is evolving—not disappearing—and how user intent and platforms are shifting.
05:05 – AI’s Impact: Higher Conversion from ChatGPT
Manick shares real data on why AI-powered search users convert better and are more ready to buy.
09:12 – Winning High-Intent Searches
The power of laser-focused content strategy and why matching your core keyword matters above all else.
13:41 – The End of Web Pages? Content’s Coming Transformation
Why Manick predicts web pages as we know them could disappear, replaced by knowledge graphs and platform-generated answers.
15:30 – The Only Moat: Build a Brand They Remember
How to create recall, loyalty, and direct traffic in a world of rented digital real estate.
18:05 – The Comeback of Community
Why in-person connection and peer recommendations are more valuable than ever in an AI-driven world.
19:09 – Entrepreneurship Lessons: Fail Faster, Learn More
Manick’s advice for founders and marketers: don’t be afraid of failure, keep taking swings, and success will follow.

Pulled Quotes

“If you’re not driving action on your site, you’re just watching through the looking glass. Tools have to help you move.”
— Manick Bhan

“In a world of abundant content, your only moat is brand—people need to know you, remember you, and come back.”
— Manick Bhan

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.144)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is Jon Jantsch. My guest today is Manick Bhan. He is the founder, CTO of Search Atlas, a cutting edge SEO and content marketing platform designed to help marketers, agencies and businesses drive measurable growth. With a background in engineering and entrepreneurship, Manick previously founded RankPay and has become a respected thought leader in the SEO community. So Manick, welcome to the show.

Manick @ Search Atlas (00:30.847)

Thank you, John. Great to be here.

John Jantsch (00:32.686)

So let’s talk a little bit about creating a search Atlas. How old is search Atlas now? Five years ish? Is that?

Manick @ Search Atlas (00:39.551)

I think the first line of code I wrote about seven years ago. Yeah.

John Jantsch (00:44.066)

Seven years ago, okay. So a lot’s changed in that approach or in SEO necessarily. how did you approach or maybe even a better question, why did you think a tool needed to be built for SEO purposes? What was kind of your founding thinking of this?

Manick @ Search Atlas (01:03.187)

Yeah. Good question. with my first, my first tech company, we were in the live entertainment ticketing space. And if you don’t rank on Google, you don’t exist in that industry. You know, it’s like the largest ticketing company is actually Google. It’s not ticket master or stop hub. It’s Google because you go to Google to then find those tickets. So if you’re not on Google there, your business doesn’t exist. So figuring out what the equation was, was something that I started trying to crack the code on, over a decade ago. And.

John Jantsch (01:13.428)

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (01:33.437)

What I learned very quickly in the process of trying to scale and grow that business is that other tools out there, conventional, what I call traditional or trad SEO tools like Ahrefs or SEMrush, these are analytics tools. They give us reports, they give us like data, but if we don’t move on that data, nothing moves, right? We’re just watching through the looking glass. And so I felt what we needed really as an industry was tools that would actually help us accelerate

John Jantsch (01:43.789)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (01:52.034)

Yeah, yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (02:02.259)

change, like the changes to our sites, the changes to the internet that help us rank better. And that’s where Search Atlas came from.

John Jantsch (02:09.592)

So people aren’t familiar with search as necessarily, you know, it basically lives on a platform, but it connects with your website. And so it actually is able to make changes on your website from that platform. That sort of took some wizardry, didn’t it?

Manick @ Search Atlas (02:25.087)

It did. It started as something on back of the envelope, trying to figure out how we would do this and make it fast in real time. But we’re happy that it worked. Initially, we weren’t even sure if Google would be able to see the changes that we were making. So there was a lot of risk in the early days, but I believed that we would figure it out. And we did. And now I can be, I think I’m happy to say, so over 20,000 sites powered by the tech, by the software.

John Jantsch (02:26.094)

You

Manick @ Search Atlas (02:54.269)

over 5,000 agencies on the platform. And it’s a case study machine. Like it just produces case studies constantly. And that’s been great.

John Jantsch (03:03.918)

Yeah. So you’ve probably seen these headlines of late. You know, it’s become very trendy to start a blog post or something with SEO is dead. let’s talk a little bit. So how do you see the landscape changing right now? I mean, there’s no question it is evolving and changing, but certainly not dead. How do you see it? How do you see it today?

Manick @ Search Atlas (03:15.229)

Yeah, I wonder why that is.

Manick @ Search Atlas (03:29.363)

Yeah, I think the problem is that some people’s brains are dead and they see those headlines and that’s what they click on. But the truth is, search is like a basic human function. We have information demands and needs that we need to get met. And there will always be a search engine to meet us in that. The form of what that takes and how it operates and whether the modality is through text or through audio or other formats, that’s going to evolve and become more interesting.

But at a fundamental basis, we’re essentially providing a fragment of information, looking for knowledge. And that discovery process is just evolved. The landscape is now more fragmented than it used to be. The total size of search is actually bigger. And it’s still Google’s game, but the types and ways that we’re searching are changing. And the kinds of people that search on different search platforms is also

John Jantsch (04:15.587)

Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (04:27.743)

becoming pretty interesting. What we’re seeing in our data.

John Jantsch (04:29.826)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that’s almost like there’s almost like search personality, right? Almost.

Manick @ Search Atlas (04:36.743)

Yeah, I mean, on the end, on the other end of the computer, there’s an avatar, there’s an ICP. And the ICP of the chat GPT user is someone who’s willing to pay at least 20 bucks a month. Remember that, like we’re paying for the subscription. Anyone can search on Google without even a dollar. It’s a free platform. And so immediately there’s a higher commercial possibility from the user of chat. That’s why I guess when we look at our data, we’re seeing

John Jantsch (04:38.062)

Yeah, yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (05:05.278)

5.5 times higher conversion rate from people that go to our site from chat GPT than from Google, which was insane. And then even for some of our product pages, we see, you know, 1.5 to 4X higher conversion rate. So it’s undeniable that the conversion likelihood is way higher from chat than it is from Google. And that’s what we’re seeing.

John Jantsch (05:27.384)

Yeah, and I think it makes a ton of sense because at least today, the snapshot in the moment, I think that the consumer’s belief is, chat, GPT or AI or something has gone out there and done all the research for me. And so these three results that it gave me, you that’s all I need to look at. And I think that’s really why you’re seeing that. Don’t you think that’s why that intent and that conversion is so high?

Manick @ Search Atlas (05:49.843)

Yeah, for sure. And the other thing that happens faster on LLMs is that you’re able to do your research in a more comprehensive way. So there’s other prompts they’re asking. They’re asking refinements and they’re digging in deeper. They’re going and they’re asking more questions. And then when they get to the final end of their journey, usually they’re in a pretty close position, I think, to make the transaction happen and they’re ready.

John Jantsch (06:16.022)

Yeah. Yeah. was a lot of those questions they used to ask a salesperson have now been answered. Yeah. Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (06:21.693)

Yeah, exactly. Way less objections and they’re way more familiar with what they’re buying. And from an information processing perspective, John, like that’s the other amazing thing about it is it’s way easier for us to interact with ChatGPT because we know the structure. It’s text and it’s structured in a way and it’s easy to synthesize that.

John Jantsch (06:37.858)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:44.238)

Yeah, yeah, it’s a conversation. Feels like a conversation, right? So, how, where do you, what do you see the biggest opportunities and maybe the biggest risks today for marketers with AI becoming, you know, so integrated into search strategies?

Manick @ Search Atlas (07:00.447)

Yeah, that’s an interesting one. I think one of the biggest risks is

Manick @ Search Atlas (07:09.297)

One of the biggest risks is how the platforms themselves are changing. And if you’re like, as an example, if you’re a pure play organic search marketer that was good at creating content and you were creating a lot of informational content, that strategy is becoming more and more obsolete because the truth is Google and all the LMS, they already know what color an Apple is and they know that the sky’s blue. Like we don’t have to like create content to show that to them.

John Jantsch (07:29.027)

Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (07:38.143)

We have to create something new and different. And so some people that haven’t evolved their marketing approach in organic SEO, that methodology is already obsolete and they need to retrain. So I think that’s a risk is obsolescence. If you’re watching podcasts like this and reading up and actually applying the knowledge, well, you’re using an obsolete blueprint that’s living in, hopefully not Windows 95, but an out-of-date era.

John Jantsch (07:44.408)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:07.064)

Yeah, yeah,

Manick @ Search Atlas (08:07.439)

So that’s a risk. Yeah. And the platforms themselves are changing a lot. like what used to work two years ago on Facebook, for example, like I remember buying mobile app installs from, for my first tech company for less than a dollar by scraping the Facebook user IDs and running custom audiences. They closed that loophole. So just how the platforms work, their opportunities, that also changes. And it’s changing faster with AI now than it was before.

John Jantsch (08:36.142)

So you described a lot of that how-to content. The theory was very top of the funnel, get people to my website, that kind of thing. The common advice that I’m hearing a lot and a lot of folks are giving right now is that our content strategy needs to be more around winning high intent searches, which I think people would say we’ve always wanted to do, right? But that person that’s out there searching for best person to do X is a

is a better searcher, but how do we optimize our content for that type of probably more competitive search?

Manick @ Search Atlas (09:12.595)

Yeah. So it’s, so it starts with really understanding your, like the central topic or the primary keyword of your business and being really laser clear about that. So for example, for search Atlas, some people would say it’s SEO. No, it’s actually not SEO. It’s if it’s SEO, then it’s SEO automation and not just SEO automation, SEO automation software. Right. Or maybe it’s marketing automation software.

John Jantsch (09:19.128)

Yep.

John Jantsch (09:34.551)

Mm-hmm.

Manick @ Search Atlas (09:41.279)

problem becomes first off when people begin the process from the wrong starting point and they don’t really understand what is what’s called like their primary keyword or their central searching town. So that’s the first thing. what I, we do, because we also have an agency and we take on a lot of projects from people that have worked with other agencies that did the content process wrong. And they didn’t understand what it was that this business was actually selling and they created as an example.

John Jantsch (10:04.781)

Nice.

Manick @ Search Atlas (10:10.463)

for a cardiologist in LA, an article about did Donald Trump have a heart attack? Well, I get the concept of a heart attack and Donald, that’s somehow related to cardiology, but that has nothing to do with cardiology in Los Angeles or the service or the practice of it. And so when people take that path and they don’t do the right content strategy, they confuse Google about what the site is actually about. And that is the part that is devastating when they…

John Jantsch (10:24.451)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:35.629)

Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (10:39.281)

increase the site’s focus score, which is a metric Google is quantifying, when they reduce its focus score, when they increase its radius, when the site gets topical radius goes large, it becomes unable to rank for a core topic. And that’s like the mathematics of how they do the demotion. That I think is the biggest problem with content strategies today.

John Jantsch (11:02.39)

Yeah. You see a lot of people that write these things that get a whole lot of eyeballs. And then when you really start drilling into it, it’s like, well, these aren’t, these aren’t people that would ever buy from us, you know? And, so it’s almost like you’re hurting yourself, you know? Yeah. Great. We’ve got lots of traffic, but you’re actually hurting yourself. So, so how should, how should marketers that’s broad and beyond SEO be, thinking about AI today and certainly as it plays into, to your tool search analysts as well.

Manick @ Search Atlas (11:11.732)

Right.

Manick @ Search Atlas (11:33.097)

Well, probably the common thing anyone’s going to say right now is like, learn more AI, like get more into the tools, practice it. And so I don’t want to just say that. I like to come up with kind of my own little unique flavor angle on it. And what I would say is, create gatherings of people either on your team or people that you respect in the community and do your own hackathons. There’s way more power.

John Jantsch (11:39.778)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (11:59.95)

Mmm.

Manick @ Search Atlas (12:01.971)

When a group of people collectively approach a problem together in like in the real world, by the way, not, I’m not talking about zoom. I’m talking about in the real world. we do hackathons with my team and I, I fly out all over the world to meet different clusters of our team. And we lead hackathons for like four days, five days. We all stay in the same place and we build and we build in at the end. We come out, but we come up with a couple of different things we’ve created together and the process though, we all.

become masters of some type of use case around AI in that process. And sometimes we’ll even bring in people that I know that are experts in a particular discipline. And so if you don’t know those sorts of people, go find them and make friends with them and learn as much as you can, not just from what’s online and on YouTube, but from real experts that you can become friends with.

John Jantsch (12:49.975)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:01.87)

So there’s a lot of common, know, the whole idea of quality versus quantity. And I see a lot of people looking at AI and saying, I can produce 10 times as much content, you know, in the same amount of time. And I think the flip side of that is I also think you can look at these tools and say, no, I can produce way better content in maybe the amount of time because I can go so much deeper. can have access to stats. I can have access to

know, reports to people have written and be able to pull quotes from other people. Is there a quantity versus quality kind of best practice or advice that you give people?

Manick @ Search Atlas (13:41.753)

So I’ll give a controversial take. I think that web pages as we know them will be dead in less than 10 years. And the reason for this is that right now, and historically, Google have needed us to build web pages and really even Facebook to build web pages to lead people on an informational journey that maybe also includes a conversion journey.

towards some sort of transaction or registration or some path like that. And they needed us to box up the information because they didn’t have it. When we live in an era where creating content, you can create high quality content and lots of it, where content, the value of it, whether it’s a webpage or a blog post is essentially zero and high quality content is abundant. That’s the future we’re racing towards. And so in a world like that,

essentially all the information that’s knowable gets compressed into a knowledge graph. And that knowledge graph is essentially containing all of the factuality, all the information consensus of all of the voices on the internet and the world. And then at that point, Google can just make their own web pages. They don’t need us to build it for them. They just know what our query is. They have their lens and perspective on an answer or multiple answers. And so they will reconstruct

John Jantsch (14:55.138)

Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (15:04.627)

the webpage experience synthetically optimized for our exact question and the exact answer we’re looking for.

John Jantsch (15:10.06)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dynamically created for that one person as well. Right. Which, which obviously we, you know, very hard for us to do as a website owner. Yeah. I guess the begs the question then like, what do we do to, compete with that?

Manick @ Search Atlas (15:15.859)

Yeah, on the fly.

Manick @ Search Atlas (15:30.633)

Well, good question. Number one, build the biggest brand you can fast. Build that brand, get people to know that brand and love it. Build something that they want to come back to. Use your resources to create a true brand. Ultimately, all these search systems are essentially trying to identify the brands. Larry Page said famously that the internet is a cesspool and the brands are the signal and the cesspool. That’s literally what he said.

John Jantsch (15:33.294)

you

Manick @ Search Atlas (15:59.933)

And so what does a brand look like? Well, brand looks like people coming to your website, to your assets consistently to first a single purpose and for them to have like a high recall amongst your competitors. Get to that point. Even through traditional methodology, just get there because ultimately that’s the signal you can’t fake.

John Jantsch (16:25.612)

One of the things that I’m seeing a lot go on, you I’ve been doing this for a very, very long time. You know, the first kind of round of digital was like, once these other platforms started popping up, it was like, you know, go there, top of the funnel, get some exposure, but drive everybody back to your own property, your website, your email list, right? I’m seeing a lot more people that are investing in YouTube channels and in LinkedIn newsletters that are

of rented space, but that the entire conversion journey is actually happening in some of those rented places without necessarily sending people back to your home. So how do you feel about that kind of rented versus owned change that seems to be going on?

Manick @ Search Atlas (17:08.819)

I think we’ve always, yeah, I think we’ve always lived in a rent world. It’s always been rented and we just maybe didn’t want to believe it. because even ranking on Google, that’s also rented, right? We’re renting it. We could lose it if we, if we make a mistake. the exception to this would be Amazon, but even Amazon has parts of its business that are rented. and so I think it’s becoming comfortable with the fact that across all areas that, that we have visibility.

John Jantsch (17:18.99)

Yeah, sure.

Manick @ Search Atlas (17:36.627)

we will always be competing with our competitors there. So that means at the core of what we’re doing, we can’t just use crony marketing techniques to box out, you know, the bad guys and just keeping the good guys. Good guys have to become better. You guys have to like keep evolving the state of the art in our craft so that we stay competitive. And like, I mean, that sounds like the most obvious thing, right? Like we just can’t, you know, but I think that’s what it is. And if you build something,

John Jantsch (17:59.436)

Yeah. There’s no silver bullet in that, though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (18:05.767)

No, there’s not. And it’s different depending on what industry you’re in. ultimately, guess, you know, and I always hated like the Kevin Costner, if you build it, they will come like mentality that Google have. Like I’ve always hated it. But ultimately it is like in this perspective, it’s true that if you build something of value and people will come back to it and you know, only other thing I want to add to that is also, I think because of this, we’re going to see people move back toward community.

John Jantsch (18:15.512)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (18:34.585)

real face-to-face spaces that are free of digital advertising and just people that now feel like they’re being misled by what they see online. feel like everything’s been gamed and can be gamed. There’s an increasing amount of people that are looking for recommendation from another person, not from the internet.

John Jantsch (18:34.69)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:57.048)

So last question, I always love to end on kind of a personal question. Looking back at kind of your entrepreneurial journey, any lesson that you wish you’d learned a little earlier as a founder?

Manick @ Search Atlas (19:09.663)

Don’t be afraid to fail and fail harder. I had my days of couch surfing and crashing in New York City in the early part of my startup journey when I had no money and I zero twice. And I think we need to celebrate that more and be comfortable and support people who are there. And I’ll say every single person I know that was in startups or building on their entrepreneurial journey a decade ago,

John Jantsch (19:11.31)

Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (19:38.289)

every single one of them has landed someplace amazing. Like not just financially, but also just happy with like where they are in the world. And I feel like, you know, anyone who’s listening to this and is in that early part of their journey, absolutely like commit to it, keep going and like, don’t give up. you’ll get there, like it will happen.

John Jantsch (19:41.196)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:02.69)

Got to keep taking swings, right? So Manik, is there some place, I appreciate you dropping by today. Is there some place you’d invite people to connect with you, learn more about Search Atlas, everything you’re up to?

Manick @ Search Atlas (20:04.969)

Definitely.

Manick @ Search Atlas (20:14.451)

Yeah, easy person to find online. You can find me on Instagram at Monique Bonn, at Monique Bonn. I’ve also got a YouTube channel. If you look up search Atlas on YouTube, we do like weekly webinars and Google challenges and train people how to get better rankings on Google using Holistic SEO.

John Jantsch (20:34.06)

Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Manick @ Search Atlas (20:39.527)

Awesome. Thanks, John. Appreciate it.

The Website Is No Longer the Marketing Hub: How AI Is Reshaping Customer Journeys

The Website Is No Longer the Marketing Hub: How AI Is Reshaping Customer Journeys written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Marketing has shifted. Your website is no longer the central hub of your customer’s journey. AI-powered assistants, chatbots, and large language models are now curating content and guiding buyer behavior in ways your site never touches. If you’re not structuring content for AI visibility or building assets that live beyond your domain, you’re falling behind. This post breaks down what this shift means and what practical actions marketers should take right now.

1. Introduction: The Shift from Web-Centric to AI-Centric Marketing

For decades, websites were the command center of marketing. You drove traffic to them, optimized for conversions, and measured success based on visits, bounce rates, and leads captured on-site.

But that model is breaking. Today’s customers are interacting with AI interfaces—Google’s AI Overviews, ChatGPT, Claude, voice assistants, and vertical AI tools—before they ever see your website. These systems are shaping perceptions, curating recommendations, and often resolving intent before a click occurs.

Callout: If your strategy still treats your website as the main entry point, you’re missing where the real journey begins.

2. Why AI Is the New Gatekeeper

Google isn’t your homepage anymore. Neither is your website. AI models now mediate access to information. This means content gets repackaged, summarized, and referenced outside your domain.

What This Means:

AI tools curate your content whether or not users visit your site
Keyword strategies aren’t enough without structured, scannable content

What You Should Do:

Use headers, bullets, and short sections for readability
Implement schema markup and semantic HTML
Feed your content to GPTs, Perplexity, and Bing

3. How Prompt-Ready Content Replaces Traditional SEO

Search engines used to reward keywords. AI rewards clarity and completeness. It extracts direct answers from content that is structured like a conversation.

What You Should Do:

Write content in a clear Q&A format
Use summary blocks and concise explanations
Test with ChatGPT or Claude to see how your content is interpreted

Callout: If AI can’t easily summarize your message, your audience won’t see it.

4. Building AI-Native Marketing Assets

Your static PDFs and polished landing pages aren’t dead—but they’re no longer enough. AI-native tools are interactive and value-delivering in real time.

Ideas to Explore:

Create AI-guided chat flows using tools like ManyChat or Intercom
Build a branded GPT that reflects your voice and systems
Package useful prompts for your audience to use in their own AI queries

5. Rethinking Marketing as an Ecosystem

Your brand must exist across feeds, formats, and AI interfaces—not just your website. Visibility now means playing in multiple ecosystems.

How to Operate:

Repurpose content across LinkedIn, YouTube Shorts, email, and GPT inputs
Use modular content: quotes, cards, stats, highlights
Create embedded tools—calculators, diagnostics, or interactive guides

Callout: Don’t optimize just for clicks—optimize for where your audience already lives.

6. Actionable Questions for Future-Proofing Your Strategy

Before you publish content, ask yourself:

Can this be summarized by AI in under 60 words?
Would an AI recommend this in a relevant answer?
Does it exist in multiple ecosystems?
Is it structured to be referenceable by AI, not just linkable?

7. Conclusion: Marketing That Moves With the Customer

Marketing is no longer web-first. It’s AI-first. This is not the death of the website—but it is the decentralization of your marketing strategy. Your content needs to live and perform across multiple digital touchpoints, including those controlled by AI systems.

The Duct Tape Marketing approach remains the same: simplify, systemize, and stay customer-centric. But now, you must expand your playbook to meet your audience where they’re engaging—on AI platforms, in chat tools, and through curated content experiences.

Need help rethinking how your content performs in this new AI-powered landscape? Let’s talk.

Outgrow Your Competition: The Proactive Sales System with Alex Goldfayn

Outgrow Your Competition: The Proactive Sales System with Alex Goldfayn written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Episode Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Alex Goldfayn, bestselling author and CEO of the Revenue Growth Consultancy. They dive into his new book, Outgrow: How to Expand Market Share and Outsell Your Competition, discussing why proactive outreach is the key to consistent sales growth—especially in a challenging economy. Learn how simple habits, the right mindset, and strategic action can help you stand out, take market share, and build a sustainable sales culture.

About the Guest

Alex Goldfayn is a three-time Wall Street Journal bestselling author and a globally recognized sales consultant. He runs the Revenue Growth Consultancy, helping B2B organizations increase annual sales by 15–30% through proven, proactive systems.

Website: runoutgrow.com
LinkedIn: Alex Goldfayn

Key Takeaways

95% of salespeople are reactive—proactive outreach is the differentiator.
The main blocker isn’t laziness, but fear of rejection.
The COPE mindset (Confidence, Optimism, Positivity, Enthusiasm) is foundational.
Track sales actions, not just results—“swing the bat.”
“Did You Know?” questions convert at 20% and drive line-item growth.
Everyone who faces customers contributes to sales.
Storytelling and recognition drive cultural change more than incentives.
Systems and repetition make growth habits stick.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

00:52 – The 95% reactive trap and how to break free
03:40 – Proactivity in tough economic climates
05:02 – Salespeople’s fear of rejection explained
08:04 – The power of the COPE mindset
12:20 – Tracking “swings” over “hits” in sales
14:23 – Using “Did You Know?” questions to add revenue
17:28 – Non-sales teams as a proactive sales force
19:25 – From sales training to sales action
22:28 – Recognition and storytelling as culture drivers

Pulled Quotes

“You cannot react your way to market share growth. The only way to grow is to take it—and that requires proactivity.” – Alex Goldfayn

“People just want to be helped. Not once has a customer ever said, ‘I’d rather you not make my life easier today.’” – Alex Goldfayn

“Behavior follows thinking. We can’t outsell our mindset.” – Alex Goldfayn

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.006)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Chance. My guest today is Alex Goldfein. He’s a three-time Wall Street Journal bestselling author, one of the most sought after sales speakers in the world. He’s the CEO of the Revenue Growth Consultancy, one of the top grossing solo consulting firms in America, generating 7.5 million annually. His clients, primarily B2B organizations, implement simple, proactive actions that drive 15 to 30 % sales growth.

every year and we’re gonna talk about his latest book out grow how to expand market share and outsell your competition. So welcome to show Alex.

Alex Goldfayn (00:39.721)

Hi John, thank you sir. Thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (00:42.06)

I want to unpack one of the core themes of the book. You talk about transforming reactive companies into proactive ones. Tell me little bit about that thinking.

Alex Goldfayn (00:52.91)

Well, I think, you know, over 415 clients over about 22 years that I’ve done these outgrow revenue growth initiatives with, what I’ve realized is about 95 % of all companies and also 95 % of all salespeople are generally reactive, meaning we take what’s in coming. and when you take what’s in coming and most companies that have been around.

some history are very good at this, like world class, right? When I arrive at an organization, usually they are world class at this reactive work, which is basically customer service work. Well, the only way to really grow in terms of volume growth, not inflationary growth, not acquisitive growth, but organic volume sales growth, the only way to do that is we have to take market share.

We have to, uh, take business from another company that already has the business. And the only way to compete for and take market share is to be pro active. You cannot react your way to market share growth. You can’t do it. You’re just, when you’re reactive, you’re just, you know, a rising tide lifts all ships, sinking tide sinks all ships. Uh, and you’re just moving with the current. You go where the economy takes you.

And that is 95 % of all companies and 95 % of all salespeople. And that’s actually good news because it means that it’s really easy to stand out in that crowd. It’s really easy to do better. And as a result, it’s really, really easy, John, to grow.

John Jantsch (02:45.806)

Yeah, and you know, in this particular moment in time, starting the third quarter of 2025, as we record this, I’m seeing a lot of companies that it’s even worse because they’re not even even if they’re unhappy right now, they’re like not reaching out because there’s a lot of uncertainty. And it’s like, I’m just gonna stay put. So I mean, I would suggest that your proactive is probably even more necessary because there’s probably less incoming right now.

Alex Goldfayn (03:11.62)

Not only is it more necessary, it works better now because of exactly what you said, because literally nobody’s reaching out now. So outgrow proactivity works really, really well in good economies because people have money to spend and we can go to them and say, hey, what are you spending your money on? May I help you with that? I’d love an opportunity to help. But in a bad economy, John, because of exactly what you said, people sit around and your competition is like, I’m not gonna call them.

John Jantsch (03:15.202)

Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (03:40.506)

now, especially now, I’m not going to pitch them, you know, for more products or more services now in this economy. I’m telling you, when you call a customer and say, I was thinking about you, how’s your family? What are you working on that I can help you with? Or perhaps what are you doing with my competition that I can help you with? And this is somebody, you know, does somebody have a nice relationship with? when you call somebody like that, John, you’re the only one in that person’s life.

John Jantsch (03:59.16)

Thank

John Jantsch (04:03.0)

Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (04:09.943)

doing that. Nobody else is doing it, especially now. So talk about standing out from the crowd and how easy it is. Just show up because nobody is.

John Jantsch (04:20.974)

I think I know the answer to this, but tell me a little bit about the term outgrow. What are you trying to project with that?

Alex Goldfayn (04:29.292)

Yeah, well, we want to outgrow the market. We want to outgrow the competition. We want to outgrow the average. We want to outgrow the company’s own history year to year, you know, in terms of growth. And again, the way to do that is through taking market share. And the way to take market share is to be proactive.

John Jantsch (04:50.484)

So looking a little bit back to one of your very first things as saying that, 90 % of the folks just wait around. I mean, is that another way of saying that 90 % of salespeople are lazy?

Alex Goldfayn (05:02.198)

No, it’s another way of saying that 90 or 95 % of salespeople have tremendous discomfort and fear with communicating with customers and prospects when nothing is wrong, which is my definition of proactivity. If somebody says, what do you mean by proactive? I mean, when nothing is wrong, when the price isn’t going up, which is when salespeople call, when you need the payment, which is when customers hear from salespeople.

John Jantsch (05:20.225)

Yes.

Alex Goldfayn (05:31.258)

When you can’t get them the order on time, which is when customers hear from salespeople, right? People only hear from people when something rises to the level of urgency to make the call. And so this communication, this proactive communication is when nothing is wrong. So that’s my definition of productivity. And it’s not laziness. It’s intense and severe discomfort with bothering the customer, annoying the customer, taking their time and probably hovering above all of that, even higher.

is discomfort and fear of rejection. Fear of rejection. If I call them about this other offering, they might tell me no into my ear hole. And that’s an intense personal rejection, right? And that’s what we’re trying to avoid. We humans, and you and I are too, we will do anything possible to avoid that kind of rejection.

including going out and asking for the business.

John Jantsch (06:32.428)

Yeah. You know, back, back when I was just getting started, I had a routine on, Fridays. I would just pick up the phone and call five people. I was not trying to sell anything. I was not trying to do anything. And I can’t tell you, I used to laugh. In I wrote a big blog post about this, that about half the time one or two of those phone calls, would, would start with, I was just meaning to call you. And it was like, okay.

Alex Goldfayn (06:57.027)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:00.162)

Get out my order pad. It was amazing.

Alex Goldfayn (07:02.201)

That’s it. That’s it. When you show up when nothing is wrong, you are saving the customer from having to think about it again. Whatever is in their head, whatever the need might be. If you don’t call them like you just shared, they’re going to have to think about it more, probably repeatedly, because once usually doesn’t do it. You don’t think about something and then do it typically. You think about something many times and then you might do it, but you might not. And it’s incredibly valuable.

John Jantsch (07:06.35)

Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (07:30.819)

to do what you just described. And that’s why my clients, and I’ve had tens of thousands of salespeople go through this and run these processes that we’re talking about. We constantly hear from people, why will I have you? Or I’m so glad you called, can you please check on this for me? Product, service, whatever it is.

John Jantsch (07:52.227)

Yeah. Yeah. So would you say that this is just a, like, this is a habit, this is a system or is it cultural in an organization or is it all the above? Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (08:04.407)

Yeah, you need both. So I say that outgrow is two thirds mindset work because, you know, behavior always follows thinking and we can’t outsell our mindset. So if we think we’re bothering the customer, we’re going to sell accordingly. But if we think it’s our obligation to help the customer and they want our help because they’re better off with us than with the competition who isn’t as good as us, then we sell that way. We sell as though

John Jantsch (08:20.792)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (08:32.289)

we have a lot more value for the customer. So it’s two thirds mindset work. In Outgrow, we have an acronym called COPE, John, COPE, confidence, optimism, positivity, and enthusiasm. And we need those mindsets because we have to bring them to the salespeople that we work with. We have to bring them to the organization. So culturally, in Outgrow organization that runs Outgrow,

becomes more cope, becomes more confident, more optimistic, more positive, more enthusiastic. And when you are those things, it’s much easier to make proactive calls, to offer additional products, to follow up on quotes and proposals, and to ask people what else.

John Jantsch (09:17.55)

How, how ready does this, does a person using this system need to be for, if I start with a call with, just want to see if there’s anything I could help you with. I sell widgets, but the guy tells me, you know what, we just fired our accounting firm. We’re really screwed. How prepared do I have to be to say, you know what, I think I can help you with somebody, you know, unrelated to me, I’m not going to make any money off of this, but I think I can help you. mean, how prepared or, or, or how much of your system do you think?

relies on just being the person who solves problems.

Alex Goldfayn (09:50.988)

think people just want to help people. And I also think our starting position is people just want to be helped. You’re calling your customers, your prospects. People just want to be helped. That’s starting point number one. Then when we are showing up, we are simply offering to help people, which is what they want. John?

Over a hundred million outgrow actions, log, tracked and analyzed over 23 years by over 400 clients. So we log our activities and then we see the, you know, with the responses, the results, the outcomes. Um, not one time, not once has any customer ever said, I’d rather you not make my life easier today. Has it happened once people just want to be helped. if you’re calling to sell a product and somebody has a need that you don’t provide.

Well, then try to help them. Common sense, you know, human relationship stuff. in fact, I would argue that already happens. You know, if you’re watching this right now, how many times does one of your customers ask you for something that you don’t offer them? And you went and found a way to get it for them. Maybe you connected them to your competition. Even maybe you went to your competition and got what they needed for them. That happens all the time. And when you do that, the customer remembers it.

forever.

John Jantsch (11:17.774)

Well, and, and, know, once you’ve, I’ve, I’ve seen this all the time. Once I’ve, once I’ve got that trust, um, you know, I want to keep it. Um, and I keep it by just not, not allowing them to call anybody else, right. I’m the only one that they would call regardless of what their problem is. And, and either it takes a little extra work sometimes, you know, your stuff, you’re not going to get paid for directly, but, um, as you’ve seen in, your research, uh, pays off time and time again, speaking of, uh, research.

how would a company set up?

measuring this, you know, because you might make 10 of those calls and nothing really happens today. you know, so now the sales person’s like, you know, that’s, that’s not really paying off. you know, is there a way to measure you talk about them actions? think, I think that’s what you called them. you know, you know, these actions, is there a way to then turn them into a system of KPIs so to speak that, that, you know, that doubt do kind of motivate people to say, this works.

Alex Goldfayn (12:08.0)

Yeah, yeah, outgrow actions. Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (12:15.754)

Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (12:20.342)

Yeah, so in the book, there are scorecards and metrics that we use all over at examples. And I don’t know if you can see our video right now. You can see a couple of baseball bats behind me and we call it swinging the bat. So we don’t track the hits and outgrow. We track the swings because we know what the batting averages are. So we are simply asking outgrow participants who we call out growers.

John Jantsch (12:23.746)

Yes.

Alex Goldfayn (12:48.854)

We are asking this. These are people who face customers for you. We’re asking them to try to take our act to take our actions because we know, you know, in baseball you can hit the ball exactly right, dead on, and it flies right out of the fender and it’s an out. And sales is the same way. You can do everything right and hit the ball perfectly. And then, you know, getting the win is largely out of our control. You can’t really control if the customer is in a good mood.

You can’t really control if the customer has an itch when you’re calling to scratch. can control making my call, but I can’t control if they need it in that moment. can’t control the timing. the other thing we know is we need eight or nine nos for every yes that we got in sales. you, if you win 10 to 20 % of the time in sales, you’re one of the best. baseball, you can fail 70 % of the time and go to the hall of fame.

In our work, we fail more than that.

John Jantsch (13:47.118)

Yeah, I don’t know as good as pitching is these days, Alex. I’m going to say it’s, you know, seven and a half times now.

Alex Goldfayn (13:53.955)

I know it’s dropping, isn’t it? I know. These days, 250 is a good batting average, right, in baseball? We were both baseball fans. We were chatting about that before we started our conversation here. Anyway, we do track the efforts because we know what the success rates are. You know, I’ll give you an example. We have a technique called the did you know question, and we have another technique called the reverse did you know question. Both of these are detailed in the book.

John Jantsch (14:13.422)

Yep.

John Jantsch (14:19.853)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Goldfayn (14:23.394)

So the did you know question or DYK, did you know, is you suggesting an additional product or service to your customer that they don’t already buy from you. They probably buy it somewhere else. They probably need it. They probably buy it from your competition, service or product. And so what we know statistically is that 20 % of those close, 20 % become a new line item. So if I say to you, hey, John, did you know I do keynote speeches? What about longer workshops? How about one-on-one coaching?

Of course, I work with organizations. I ask you five of those, and it’s going to take me 20 seconds, maybe, one will close and turn into a new line for us to work on. And so let’s say somebody listening to us has 10 salespeople. And each one of those 10 asks five digital questions and they’re tracked. We do enter them into a system. We have an outgrow tracking form. a simple web form. You enter it in and at the end of the week, you get data back from us. We send the data back to you. It’s all automated.

Um, 10 people ask five digital questions a day. That’s 50 a day, 250 a week, a thousand a month, 12,000 a year. If my math is right, that’s top of my head. 12,000 digital questions a year. If we can get 10 people to give us 20 seconds a day.

20 % of 12,000, that’s the success rate, is 2,400 new line items. That’s a fact. It’s not, I hope they’ll add 2,400 new line items. If they can get five Did You Know questions in 20 seconds from 10 people a day, every day, that’s where the complexity comes. That’s the hard part. Not asking the Did Knows, it’s the choreography. It’s doing it all the time, every day, they will get 2,400 new.

John Jantsch (16:07.726)

Yeah

Alex Goldfayn (16:12.032)

line items, then the question becomes how much money per line item and how many times a year will that new thing be purchased? Cause many people sell things repeatedly. It could be monthly, could be quarterly. It could be twice a year. You do the math almost always five digital questions a day gets you to millions of dollars in new revenue as a fact, statistically for sure. If you can get five digital questions a day.

John Jantsch (16:13.634)

me.

John Jantsch (16:37.356)

And I bet you every salesperson listening has had an experience where they walked into a client’s office and the client said, yeah, we just did this new thing over here. And then they said, did you know that we do that? Right.

Alex Goldfayn (16:48.792)

And then you know what you hear is you hear, do that? I didn’t know you did that. And you’re like, dude, I just told you that I do that like two weeks ago. I know it was you because we were talking to each other just like we are now. And you had the exact same reaction two weeks ago. I didn’t know you did that. Now I’m telling you again, two weeks later, you still don’t know. So the takeaway for us salespeople is just because you tell somebody something doesn’t mean they know. It means you told them doesn’t mean a register doesn’t mean they remember.

John Jantsch (17:05.518)

me.

John Jantsch (17:18.616)

So this is a good segue to non-sales department folks, right? I mean, how can they contribute to this kind of proactive sales culture? Sounds like they could be asking did you know?

Alex Goldfayn (17:22.615)

Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (17:28.096)

A hundred percent. mean, we’re constantly working with customer service people, managers, frontline people. what, what it develops, you know, clients have called it a non-traditional sales force. even people like project managers, if you’re in construction, client execs or, or, you know, engineers and architects who are like, didn’t become an engineer to be a used car salesman. Alex, thanks dude. But that’s not for me. And again, mindset work. You’re not selling, you’re helping.

John Jantsch (17:43.672)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Goldfayn (17:57.762)

People need more help from you. So yes, it is for anybody who faces customers, who can ask a, did you know question or two on the calls, even that are incoming, you know, proactive calls are a big part of our work. But if they come to you, if you have a counter operation or a sales floor of some kind, or if you’re just customer service picking up the phone all day, you can say, do you need this? How are you on that?

We just got some of this in and ask your DigiNose.

John Jantsch (18:30.531)

So does that need to be in an SOP somewhere so that everybody’s trained on it? Or is it more of a look for moments of truth?

Alex Goldfayn (18:39.751)

It’s more change the mindset, make them confident and optimistic and positive and enthusiastic, and then say to them, please ask five a day because that’s what we’re doing now. does, you know, it’s, it’s warm and fuzzy above all it’s positive work because we’re helping customers more, but it needs tracking and accountability or else it stops. It doesn’t keep going. It stops.

John Jantsch (19:09.528)

So how do you get this ingrained into an organization? Because I’m guessing, you know, they can come to one Alex’s amazing workshops, get all the good ideas, and then go back to back to the shop. And it’s like, we do it for a week. mean, how do you make it a habit?

Alex Goldfayn (19:19.989)

Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (19:25.045)

Right. Well, we, you know, you just said the key word habit. we say outgrow sales doing not sales training, because as you just said, sales training, don’t grow revenue. Sales training tells people stuff probably that they already know. And then they go back to their reactive life. And you know, in sales, we have to do things to make money. We can’t know stuff. We have to do stuff to make money.

John Jantsch (19:29.774)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:43.682)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:52.93)

Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (19:53.88)

There are some professions that can make money by knowing things. We’re not one of them. We have to do stuff that we know. So, you we engage with clients for typically three to five years, And so we have a launch year where the work begins. It takes us about 90 days to create their proactive program. Then we teach it. It’s a one-day workshop typically just for that client, just for that client’s people. It’s not open. It’s just theirs. So it’s a private.

John Jantsch (19:58.606)

the

John Jantsch (20:06.99)

Yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (20:23.287)

engagement. And then they begin this weekly cadence of the leader of the effort literally asks for or prescribes some target actions for the week. For example, this week, please give me five proactive phone calls to people that you haven’t talked to in six months or more. That’s specific. Five, did you know questions and five quote follow ups. It’s three sets of actions, 15 things for the week. Then people go do it.

Step two, step three is they log it into our system. Step four is we put out data and we show them the scorecard. Just tracking efforts. Who tried and who didn’t? Who cares and who doesn’t? And then we put out success stories. We put out wins, we tell the wins, we tell the success stories in the words of the people who submitted them. That’s five step sort of feedback loop that happens every week. Next week, they make a new assignment of actions.

John Jantsch (21:17.89)

you

Alex Goldfayn (21:22.259)

At 30, 60, and 90 days, we visit with them and do web meetings to review the data, to tell success stories to the group verbally. People actually speak their stories to each other, ask each other questions. Then we follow up with them in the next six months as well. So over a nine month period in the launch year, we are with them seven times. nobody cares what the consultant wants. The salespeople don’t care.

John Jantsch (21:36.866)

Yeah.

Mm.

Alex Goldfayn (21:50.732)

what the outside advisor wants. They only care what their leadership wants. People only do what they think is important to their boss. So this work, as much as anything, is about, we coach the leaders. The leaders then have to do the accountability and the implementation and the buy-in work and the maintaining of energy with the people who are taking the swings and doing the outgrow work.

John Jantsch (22:17.996)

Yeah. I, know, that, getting them telling stories to each other, that sort of peer pressure almost that that puts on is probably a really powerful aspect.

Alex Goldfayn (22:28.215)

It does a few things. know, and all the research shows, John, that recognition is a more effective tool to make change with, to change behavior with than money is. Recognition is more powerful than giving somebody some money in private. The reason is that one, the person feels proud. You know, they’re being recognized, they get to tell their story. Two, other people, it makes it impossible for them to say, this doesn’t work here.

John Jantsch (22:33.87)

Yeah. Right.

John Jantsch (22:56.278)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Alex Goldfayn (22:56.683)

Cause here’s stories about it working here. Three, those people aspire to be recognized next. Four, and the last thing, it teaches the work. It teaches what works, right? In the words of the happy salespeople, the successful people, it’s education, peer to peer, not from the top down, peer to peer education.

John Jantsch (23:02.286)

Yep.

John Jantsch (23:07.31)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (23:19.736)

Yeah, that’s awesome. Well, Alex, I appreciate you taking a few moments to drop by the duct tape marketing podcast. Is there anywhere you’d invite somebody to connect with you, learn about your work, obviously, learn about the book.

Alex Goldfayn (23:32.245)

Yeah, thank you, John. They can get the book on Amazon or wherever they buy books. Barnes and Noble has it. Books A Million has it. Anywhere books are sold. Actually launched as the number two best selling business book in America behind only Atomic Habits. I was able to outsell everybody except for Atomic Habits, of course.

John Jantsch (23:51.022)

That’s only been number one for what, like six, seven years?

Alex Goldfayn (23:54.281)

Right. Well, it’s good company, I guess. And then if you want to learn more about Outgrow and the revenue growth that we do, please visit runoutgrow.com.

John Jantsch (24:12.046)

Well, again, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you out there at Wrigley field or something.

Alex Goldfayn (24:18.572)

Thank you so much for having me go Cubs. appreciate that, John. Thanks for the Cubs. out.