nadosi.com

John Jantsch (00:00.767)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Joe Gagnon. He is the co-founder and CEO of Raynmaker, where he’s building the first AI native sales platform for small business, combining his interest in technology, leadership and human connection. Today we’re going to talk about how AI is reinventing sales as we know it for small business. So welcome to Show Joe.

Joe Gagnon (00:25.826)

John, thanks for having me on. Love this show that you have.

John Jantsch (00:27.797)

Well, thank you, thank you. So I guess let’s start with what needs to be reinvented. Why are we reinventing sales?

Joe Gagnon (00:36.494)

I’m not sure that particularly we’re inventing sales, but how we actually make sales happen. And, you know, I’ve been selling since I was 16 years old. So I think I learned the essence of the conversation, but more than anything, you know, why is someone looking to buy something and how do we make that happen? And so what happened, you know, as I got inspired over the past year about the Rainmaker idea was small business owners don’t start businesses with the idea that they want to sell people. They want to deliver their service.

Home services, mow the lawn, clean the house, don’t know, walk the dog, whatever it might be. And then they start this business and they sell usually this early adopter, already want their service in their local community. And then they have to find like, oh my God, I gotta buy some leaves and I gotta talk to these people. Then I gotta convert them. Then I gotta turn them into customers. They’re doing this while they may be driving in their pickup truck to the next customer and it just gets harder and harder for them to actually have a life when they…

stepped into this idea of like American my own business make this work and now they’re stuck in the stock at the hardest part, which is the part that we wanted to focus on, is so we’re reinventing in the context of how a small business owner operates their business.

John Jantsch (01:52.437)

Yeah, it’s funny. I talked to many, many business owners of all, you know, every industry you can imagine. And if they’ve been in business for a couple of years, at least they realize now that 50 % of job is selling or getting sales. And as you said, a lot of them just want to swing a hammer. And so it really does make it tough. We use the phrase and I think this is straight out of your bio, AI native sales platform. What does that mean? I guess, and maybe describe it in the context of Marine Bank.

Joe Gagnon (02:02.924)

Yes.

Joe Gagnon (02:07.939)

Yes.

Joe Gagnon (02:15.518)

Mmm.

Joe Gagnon (02:21.824)

man, it’s like a good question. like, hasn’t AI sort of been around for 30 years, right? mean, you know, MIT and Marvin Minsky and the rest of the boys up there.

John Jantsch (02:30.559)

Well, just even our driving directions, things like that people don’t realize have been very powered by AI. We’ve been using that for a decade.

Joe Gagnon (02:35.542)

Yes. So the models that underlie the idea have been around for a long time. We’ve evolved to this thing called the large language model, which is giving more access to sort of regular people in terms of this token-based conversational creation in real time. So AI native for us is the parts of the workflow where we want to leverage AI

algorithms and technology, but the whole system itself, mean, we probably use 30 % is this AI part, 70 % is a workflow. It’s a sales workflow, it’s a data integration problem. But in the part of the conversational dialogue, yeah, there’s native AI where we’re going back and forth between our own LLM as everyone would call it or what an open AI might look like. But we’re also using

broader context of AI to mean machine learning as well. So the ability to leverage mathematical models to look for insights, to be able to bring out derivative perspectives that you wouldn’t have been able to do with just a normal database. So that’s the AI native part of what we’re doing.

John Jantsch (03:54.517)

So a lot of small business owners don’t have the budget or just don’t really have the wherewithal to put together an operations team, BDRs, closers, whatever all the roles would be. But in a lot of ways, is this leveling the playing field a little bit for that smaller company?

Joe Gagnon (03:57.902)

you

Joe Gagnon (04:10.99)

That’s the hope. know, there’s a language that everyone started using, which is like democratize capability, access to systems and all of that. I think that the fundamental thesis that we took to this was actually literally to say, what would the small business owner need and what could they invest to make this kind of transformation happen? Because actually, if this works, I think we give them their life back. They’re not sitting at the soccer game with their phone connected to their ear. They’re not driving and texting in their pickup truck or whatever vehicle they might have.

John Jantsch (04:16.053)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (04:39.977)

Yeah.

Joe Gagnon (04:40.174)

that our price point, you know, on the low end, it’s $500 a month, on the high end, it’s $1,000 a month. This is less than hiring a person to answer the phones. We can cover you 24 by 7 by 365, learning off of your dialogue, your brand, your voice, and leveraging our sales expertise, our workflow, our database, and the combination of which should allow that business owner to grow as much as they want.

They don’t have to look. mean, some business owners have told me in the past, look, I don’t want more business than I have today, but I just want it to be predictable. I don’t want the ups and downs. I’m spending so much money on leads. I don’t even know what I’m buying. And so we’re trying to get this to where that American dream is not so daunting. And actually that I mean, look at John, I can’t believe how many people want to start their own business. What are they thinking? But maybe we could actually make that

know, emotional journey better and turn it into something that doesn’t dominate their life.

John Jantsch (05:47.113)

One of the, I think, fastest ways to erode trust in marketing is when things feel very automated, very inauthentic. We all get the AI spam now. How do you kind of balance that? Automation’s great when it reduces friction. It’s bad when it kills relationships.

Joe Gagnon (05:57.624)

Yeah.

Joe Gagnon (06:09.538)

I think it’s a great question and there’s a balancing act that we’re going to have to play over the next year. I think if we were a year from now, we’d be really hard pressed to find the difference between a voice generated by AI or a person’s voice. So we’re not far away from that. Our thesis is this, the consumer is making a phone call because they want more information and because the website didn’t provide it, the product didn’t provide it, or they just have some emotional support that they want. And so,

To the degree that we can give them better, even if it is a little bit robotic, or you can notice it’s an AI, but if they can give you what you need, like, think about this example, you know, we have a lot of pest control customers, someone’s gonna spray for mosquitoes in the backyard, and the parents, and gosh, I got kids and a dog, I’m wondering, is this safe? They just wanna ask that question. They would probably love to get the owner, but it’s unlikely.

So what if someone sounds enough like the owner and knows it enough to be relatable and answer the question effectively, not just in a marketing way, the depth of, hey, this is organic. Here’s how to think about it. Here’s what we’ve heard from other customers. Here’s things to consider. And so I keep believing that what the consumer is looking for is just more better information when they need it. And this is the starting point. Now,

Probably everyone won’t adopt this within a year because they will be skeptical. And as they experience it more and more, it’ll get better. Look, I’ve run call center businesses in the past. What I’ve heard more than anything is I don’t want to talk to people who, well, I can’t even talk to them because you have an IVR. Number two, when I talk to them, they don’t know anything. Number three, I can barely understand them, right? That’s the experience to date. We think we can leapfrog over that by bringing this brand context.

and a voice that we can understand that’s available whenever we want. Because imagine midnight on a Saturday, you just want to ask that question like you can’t do that today.

John Jantsch (08:11.069)

I would totally agree with you. I don’t think we care what the technology is as long as we get what we want. And I have interacted, I’m sure we all have, with customer support bots now that are there in every software. And when they’re just maddening, it’s a terrible experience. But I’ve also got a couple of software platforms I interact with a lot, and I get the answers I want.

Joe Gagnon (08:18.03)

Mm.

John Jantsch (08:40.661)

And to me, then I’m like, I don’t need to talk to somebody in support because I got what I wanted.

Joe Gagnon (08:48.14)

Yeah. You know, it’s interesting also, like what we see the integration of sales and support coming together. Like the customer doesn’t think about those differently. And often they call the sales line because they’ll answer and they ask the support. So.

John Jantsch (08:59.689)

Yeah, right. You might spend money with us. Of course we’re going to answer.

Joe Gagnon (09:05.006)

Yeah, so we want to like say, hey, it doesn’t matter. Call the same phone number and bring your sales opportunity or your complaint. I think about this, even in the non-small business area, we’ve been talking to some pizza chains. Like you order your pizza, it’s great. Hey, it came with no pepperoni. I want to call back the same number and get it resolved rather than send an email or try to call the store. We can get that resolved. I think the integration from John, I’ve been working on customer stuff for 30 years.

I think it’s the first time we might be able to, for the first time, really delight a customer because we’re going to work and live the way they do, not the way my business says, I can’t answer the phone now. It’s too expensive to do this. I’m to put technology in the way because it’s just too expensive. We’re going to try and normalize the expense of this and the experience so that it becomes magical. we’re going to, you’ll see on our website soon, we’re going to put up numbers people can call and try.

and see what it sounds like. And they’ll experience it and they’ll be like, well, maybe this is what the future could be like. Because imagine if it is.

John Jantsch (10:11.081)

I tell you a couple of markets I’d like you to target credit card companies and airlines. Could you get them on board?

Joe Gagnon (10:18.882)

You know, my God, I fly a lot and I sort of wonder, you but you know this, like it’s the same as your cable company. I call them up and try and get something like you can’t, you can’t even figure it out. I think this is one of the areas where AI will advance the ball. And because this is under the owner control, it doesn’t have to turn into a marketing vehicle.

They don’t really care about that. They just want predictability and they want their life back. And if we can deliver that for them, you know, this one feels like probably one of the most sort of beneficial systems I could have worked on.

John Jantsch (10:59.913)

Yeah, well, and you’re absolutely right. Those IVR systems from the past, I they basically had a tree of options. If you didn’t fit into one of those options, you were kind of out of luck. Whereas AI can essentially have infinite options for what you’re after.

Joe Gagnon (11:15.406)

Yeah. And I think the other thing is that we learn as we go. So you get all these transcripts, you start to see a pattern. So imagine someone had 50 locations. Well, they never saw the data pattern across all of that. In the future, we can run this into our large language model and ask questions like what worked, what didn’t work, where the objections, how do we handle objections in the future? How could we nurture this customer better? We can learn.

John Jantsch (11:22.644)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (11:42.655)

Well, or even more, like, in this part of town, they care about this. In this part of town, they care about that. And it’s like personalized to the store level.

Joe Gagnon (11:49.034)

yes!

Yeah, we have found one thing that we thought people would like personalized, and then they changed their mind. So regional accents, for example. So we had a customer who said, we would love a Southern accent. And we put it in there like, no, we actually didn’t really want that. That was too much. So they said, how about that Midwestern one? Female versus male. But we can regionalize, and we can make it feel to the brand more than you could.

We know this, we would love to be able to hire people and have them be experts day one and have them get better all the time. Sadly, that doesn’t happen, but we can do that actually with AI.

John Jantsch (12:32.636)

So talk about some very specific use cases that a small business owner, I mean, are people using this for outbound or is this all really kind of inbound customer service support?

Joe Gagnon (12:39.533)

Hmm.

Joe Gagnon (12:45.312)

Yeah, so this is a good question because we’re going to reframe this idea of outbound. Like why does outbound happen? Outbound is typically a sales process, right? But that’s because the customer can’t talk to you when they want to talk to you. So we’re going to redefine outbound in the following way. If you come and fill out a form, you should be able to talk to someone at that point. You should be able to schedule when you want to hear from someone. You should not be throwing your name out into the ether hoping that someday someone actually gets back to you.

When they inbound or this outbound, you never answer who wants to answer from what call might even look like spam. So one, we want to make it work to the prospect or this potential customer’s timeframe and interest level. This is starting first as a sales platform, which is someone has demonstrated some interest. Maybe they got a Google lead or they got a web form filled out or something to that effect. And they want to reach out to us.

When they call the company phone number, it would ring into our AI and the AI would have that dialogue with the person. They’d go through the conversation, hopefully overcome any objections. And then they’d say, would you like to go forward with the sale? If they say yes, then we do auto scheduling into a calendar. We take payment and then we summarize that data for the owner and update the CRM system. So that’s the first use case really is sales inbound.

John Jantsch (14:17.34)

So do you think that one of the things we’ve really witnessed over the last few years is people are going, because they can, farther down the journey before they ever pick up a phone or contact their business. So much research we can do. A lot of people are putting pricing or least calculators on it so that somebody can actually almost be ready to buy before they even raise their hand. Do you see, and I think a lot of that has to do with you start to talk about, people don’t want to talk to a salesperson. They don’t want to be sold. It’s a hassle.

Joe Gagnon (14:38.915)

Yes.

John Jantsch (14:46.015)

to like schedule an appointment and then meet it. So do you see this actually becoming a tool that people will say, I’ll talk to the AI bot before a human, because I can get the information and I don’t feel like the AI bot’s not gonna pressure me to do something.

Joe Gagnon (15:03.638)

Yeah, you know, so that’s a great question, John. So when we started the company, the first thing I did was write our manifesto, you know, what do we believe in? But the second thing that I wrote was our brain maker constitution. And that constitution is a set of responsibilities we want to uphold, which is we are here to inform the customer on behalf of the owner. We’re not here to manipulate. We want to make them make a better decision. We believe that when they do, they’ll buy more. And so

We actually want the AI to be more about informing. And if it gets the person to the place where they want to buy, they should be able to do that easily. But it’s OK if they use it as a place to get knowledge and to learn about the brand and about the products. It is not meant to manipulate and try all of those sales tactics that a person would do. And we can actually program it that way. That’s why we wrote the Constitution.

John Jantsch (15:52.684)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, what I’m getting at is, mean, imagine doing like a webinar or something. And then typically the CTA is like, know, schedule with one of our advisors, right? Well, now imagine if you say schedule with our AI, it’ll answer all your questions. You won’t have to know anything or do anything. It’s not going to try to sell you anything. It’ll just answer your questions. And then if you want to move forward, you can schedule as a human. Do you see a day where that exists?

Joe Gagnon (15:58.414)

Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yeah.

Yeah, yes.

Joe Gagnon (16:18.542)

I think the first part for sure, but I don’t know that you’ll ever need to talk to the human because this should be as good, but we can do the two-step process. And look, I think it’s up to the owner. If they want to provide information and we want to provide information on their behalf. The reason they might not do it now is they’re like, well, every time I talk to you, I should close you. It costs me more to talk to you another time. But the way we sell our platform, it doesn’t matter if we talk to you one, three or five times. We’re there to help that person make a decision.

John Jantsch (16:23.285)

You

Yeah.

Joe Gagnon (16:47.842)

This comes back to my sales experience. My most effective selling has always been when I have a more informed consumer or buyer. They buy better. it’s when a salesperson, that’s right, but when a salesperson tries to manipulate, you often don’t get to the outcomes you want. So we’re really rethinking this entire buying relationship with this process.

John Jantsch (16:58.242)

price goes down the list a lot of things.

John Jantsch (17:13.705)

Yeah, interesting. So if a small business owners listen to this and they’re like, this is all overwhelming. I don’t, you know, I know I need to get into this, but like how, what are some of the first steps that they need? And some of them are going to be mindset, right? Before technology maybe.

Joe Gagnon (17:24.494)

Yeah.

Joe Gagnon (17:31.085)

Yeah.

Yeah, I wouldn’t, this is like a funny way to say, but you know, we have three versions of our platform. The first is the anytime agent that’ll just actually do the answering for you 24 by seven or off hours or weekend, but just take the call and summarize it for you. It’s a way to say, I wonder how my customers interact. Then we can move into scheduling or payment and then on the full way to the full blown solution with integration and so on.

So part of it is maybe you need to explore what it would be like. The second is, you know, to listen in and hear what calls are like and get an experience and say, wow, maybe that’s not so bad. I think the third thing is to start to look at, you know, what the constraints are that you’re going to have into your growth plan. Do you want to make a commitment to hiring people? Do you want to spend that additional capital?

or would you like to put in a learning system? And so I do think that it’s a bit of a step back to say, how do I want to run the business going forward? Do I have the capability or do I want to get back to the reason why I started this? So yeah, it is a bit of soul searching, but at the end of the day, I think if you go back to why you start a small business, it’s because you want to get the product that you believe in in the hands of a lot of people.

and the sales part gets in the way. And I’ve never met a small business owner who says, the reason I want to start the business is because I want to sell. And so I think that it’ll become more normal. we’ve been going to a lot of trade shows. We do presentations. We have a booth. People are just like, are going beyond just curious now. They’re like, I really should be considering this, shouldn’t I? Now in every technology adoption curve, got

Joe Gagnon (19:17.964)

early adopters, early majority, late majority laggards. There’s some people who will never do this. And amen, that’s fine. But if you want this to work the way you want, then it’s probably worth looking at.

John Jantsch (19:30.438)

Yeah, I mean, I’ve been doing this long enough that there were people that swore they would never ever have a website. you know, we come a long way, don’t we? So, Joe, I appreciate you stopping by and introducing us to the tool. Where would you invite people to find out more, connect with you?

Joe Gagnon (19:36.204)

Right. Exactly, right.

Joe Gagnon (19:51.468)

Yeah, you know, Rainmaker with a Y, R-A-Y-N-M-A-K-E-R dot A-I. That’s our website. Now I’m on LinkedIn, Joe Gagnon. You can always check me out there. I have some fun things that I’ve done in my life that’ll tell you a little bit why I started this and what I believe in. And, you know, appreciate, John, you having us on. We really are committed to

sort of democratizing this capability at a price point that makes it easy for a small business owner so that they can sort of, you know, lean into this American dream and, you know, perform maybe better than they ever thought was possible. That’s what the idea behind technology is, right? This isn’t supposed to make it hard or scary, just make it better. And let’s, we’re going to hold ourselves to that.

John Jantsch (20:37.621)

Yeah, I’m 100 % on board with technology that removes friction, that allows me to do something the way I want to do. I’m all for it. And I think it frees us up to do the human parts that technology will hopefully never be able to do.

Joe Gagnon (20:54.188)

Yeah, I, yeah, well, boy, I’m sure we could have a whole nother podcast on this, but you know, I don’t believe that there’s some big bad AI in the future. You know, we are going to use this to our productive benefit. We’re early, right? We’re still early in this journey. There’s a lot of noise around it, but as we bring out applications like we’re working on, I think people are going to start to say, wow, this actually can be very productive for us. So we’re excited about that.

John Jantsch (20:55.317)

You

John Jantsch (21:12.201)

Yep.

John Jantsch (21:22.67)

Yeah, and I think also, just like all technologies, the more people experience it and have a good experience, there would be less resistance, because they’re like, OK, that change wasn’t so hard. That’s right.

Joe Gagnon (21:28.184)

Hmm.

Joe Gagnon (21:34.446)

That’s right. We’ve lived through many of them, right, John? mean, everyone knows those back and says that, you know, we weren’t going to leave the horse and buggy and came to a car and now we can’t live without it. I do think this one is really fascinating because it extends us maybe another order of magnitude than we could have otherwise. And we’re so committed on this price point because

you know, in small business, we understand that these are tight margins and, you know, we want to make this very accessible to people. And, you know, there’s 30 million small businesses in the U.S., probably 10 million who could be in our target profile. We could get hundreds of thousands doing this, then wow, we’d all do better because it’s the lifeblood of the economy really at end of the day.

John Jantsch (22:12.905)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (22:21.267)

Yep. Well again, appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast and hopefully we’ll run into you on these days out there on the road,

Joe Gagnon (22:28.664)

Thanks, John. Appreciate it.

Become Impossible to Ignore: Market Eminence with David Newman

Become Impossible to Ignore: Market Eminence with David Newman written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

On this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch welcomes back David Newman—keynote speaker, bestselling author, and creator of The Selling Show podcast. David’s latest book, “Market Eminence: 22 Strategies to Build a Bold Personal Brand, Become a Business Celebrity, and Drive Unstoppable Growth,” dives into how experts, consultants, and CEOs can escape obscurity and become the obvious choice in their market. David explains why visibility, respect, and brand preference are now non-negotiable, how to develop a contrarian point of view, and why radical generosity of your best ideas is the real growth engine.

About the Guest

David Newman is a keynote speaker, bestselling author of “Do It! Marketing,” “Do It! Speaking,” and now “Market Eminence.” With over 600 speaking engagements and 30 years in the field, he helps CEOs, consultants, and expert service providers elevate their brand, attract ideal clients, and become impossible to ignore in noisy, AI-fueled markets.

Website: doitmarketing.com
Book Resources: marketeminence.com
Podcast: The Selling Show

Actionable Insights

The “obscurity tax” is doing great work in isolation—if your market doesn’t see you, know you, and prefer you, you’re paying it every day.
Market eminence rests on three pillars:
- Visibility (being seen)
- Respect (deep understanding of your buyers’ pains, goals, and aspirations)
- Brand preference (differentiation + positioning so it feels risky to hire anyone else)
Personal branding often focuses on “look at me”; market eminence focuses on elevating your market, industry, and stakeholders.
Being contrarian and polarizing (in a values-aligned way) is essential to attract right-fit clients and repel bad fits.
The three content types that still cut through the noise:
- How to think (insight, not instructions)
- What to believe / what not to believe
- How to get ready for what’s coming next
A powerful exercise: identify what conventional wisdom in your industry is wrong, what harsh truths clients wish someone would say, and which strong points of view resonate with ideal clients but make insiders uncomfortable.
Use AI as a thought partner for brainstorming contrarian headlines and positioning, not as your final output.
Generosity is a growth strategy: give away client-facing content you’ve been paid for; prospects pay for implementation and applied insight, not information.
Treat prospects like clients—share real value, not teasers—and you’ll get more (and better) clients.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

01:37 – The Obscurity Tax
Why doing great work in the dark is the biggest cost most experts pay.
02:40 – The Three Pillars of Market Eminence
Visibility, respect, and brand preference explained.
03:12 – Market Eminence vs. Personal Branding
Why this isn’t about ego, but about impact.
05:48 – Do You Need a Polarizing Point of View?
How to call out what’s missing, broken, or outdated in your industry.
06:17 – Content that AI Can’t (Yet) Replace
How to think, what to believe, and how to get ready for what’s next.
08:13 – Attracting Right-Fit Clients and Repelling the Wrong Ones
The “10-foot gate” mental model and why polarization is a feature, not a bug.
11:19 – Internal vs. External Work of Market Eminence
Leadership decisions first, amplification tactics second.
11:48 – The Contrarian Slant Exercise
Three questions to craft a point of view that puts you in the top 5% of your market.
14:45 – Using ChatGPT as a Brainstorming Partner
A prompt to generate “crazy idea” headlines that attract ideal clients.
19:09 – Radical Generosity and Giving Away Your Best Ideas
Why sharing paid content doesn’t hurt your business—it fuels it.

Insights

“The obscurity tax is the cost of doing great work in isolation. No one can buy from you if they don’t know you exist.”

“Personal branding is about elevating yourself; market eminence is about elevating your market, your industry, and the people you serve.”

“You don’t need to be the only one fixing what’s broken—but you do need to be one of the few willing to call it out.”

“Prospects aren’t paying you for information—they’re paying you for applied insight and implementation.”

“The more you treat prospects like clients, the more prospects you’ll turn into clients.”

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.821)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is David Newman. He’s a keynote speaker, bestselling author, creator of the Selling Show podcast with over 600 speaking engagements and 30 years in the field. David works with CEOs, consultants, and expert service providers who are ready to elevate their brand and become impossible to ignore. He’s been on this show to talk about do it marketing, do it speaking, maybe do it selling too. can’t

or possibly today we’re gonna talk about his latest book, Market Eminence, 22 Strategies to Build a Bold Personal Brand, Become a Business Celebrity and Drive Unstoppable Growth. That’s a mouthful, welcome David.

David Newman (00:31.127)

I think so.

David Newman (00:46.648)

Thank you, John. Great to be back with you.

John Jantsch (00:49.587)

I found myself wanting to say marketing eminence. one of my last books, don’t ask me why, but it’s called The Ultimate Marketing Engine. And everybody kept saying the…

David Newman (01:03.342)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:10.078)

The mark that’s it the ultimate marketing machine everybody I’d go on podcasts and every single one of them did it So funny, so glad to have you back

In the subtitle, is the word obscurity in the subtitle? No, but you talk a lot about obscurity being, I think in the beginning of the book, the biggest tax that most of us are paying. What’s the obscurity tax and how can we avoid it?

David Newman (01:30.072)

Yes.

That’s right.

David Newman (01:37.08)

So the obscurity tax is doing great work in isolation, basically dancing in the dark. So the question really for most folks watching and listening is how in the world do we get noticed? How do we get noticed? Our products, our services, our company in this crazy, super noisy AI fueled marketplace. And the answer is really three building blocks. Together they make up market eminence. But one is absolutely visibility.

So to answer your question, we need to get seen, right? That’s basically no one buys products or services or expertise, sight unseen. So job number one is to get seen. Beyond that and above that, we also need to earn respect in the marketplace. And the way that we earn respect is by understanding our prospects to such a degree that they start to respect our insight and our intimacy.

with their pains, problems, heartaches, headaches, challenges, gaps, goals, aspirations, dreams, all that good stuff. And then the third component of this is brand preference. And that’s simply a combination of differentiation and positioning. So it becomes risky, dangerous, and dumb to hire anyone else. And once those three components are dialed in, you are in the top 5 % of your market. And that’s what the whole market eminence theme is about.

John Jantsch (03:03.647)

So as I listen to you describe that, and I know you have an answer to this, so I want to give you the opportunity to answer. How does that differ from, say, personal?

David Newman (03:12.728)

So fantastic question. And personal branding is not new. you know, frankly, many of the ideas I talk about in the book are not new. Combining them in this way around visibility, credibility, brand preference, differentiation, articulation, distinction, and doing this level of personal branding, not to bring glory to yourself. That’s the key.

Personal branding is about, okay, let’s put a whole bunch of stuff onto you and your company and your persona so that you’re all of a sudden shiny and glitzy and wonderful. This is about rising to the top of your market so that you can impact more people, so you can help more people. So I look at personal branding as sort of the evil twin of market eminence, that personal branding is raising yourself up

Market eminence is raising your market up or raising your industry or your target demographic, raising them up. And when I say that, John, by the way, it’s not just prospects. A lot of people think, well, this is a marketing strategy or it’s a sales strategy. It’s for prospects. This is for any stakeholder that you want to influence. This is that you have people that you want to come work for you, people that you want to have invest with you, people that you want to have bring you on their podcast. So media sources, media outlets.

This is partners, this is possible acquirers. If you want your company eventually to be bought and you’re building a saleable asset, all of those people are watching what you’re doing in the marketplace. And if it’s all about me, me, me, me, me, right, that’s the old school kind of personal branding 101, that is not attractive to any of those stakeholders. If you’re looking to change the market, if you’re looking to change the rules, if you’re looking to

impact the trajectory of the future of all of those stakeholders and your industry and your target market that people notice and that come from is totally different than personal brand.

John Jantsch (05:22.101)

So in a lot of fields, I’m in marketing. Marketing is very competitive. There’s lots of us out there. Do you have to have, you believe, and unfortunately the market perceives that, hey, you all do about the same thing. It’s like, do I like you better than the other person? That’s maybe my decision, right? So do you have to have some sort of polarizing, like here’s what’s broken in the world and I’m the only one that’s fixing it.

David Newman (05:36.12)

Yes. yes.

David Newman (05:48.748)

Well, first part, yes, second part, no. Second part, we’re getting into like narcissistic sociopath territory that I’m the only one that can fix it. However, you can certainly be one of the few people who sees it. But yes, to answer your question on a macro level with tremendous 1000 % enthusiasm, this is about being contrarian. This is about shifting beliefs. This is about going against the grain and calling out what is missing, funky, broken, and sad.

John Jantsch (05:53.589)

you

John Jantsch (06:00.585)

Yeah.

David Newman (06:17.344)

in your industry, with your industry practices, with the way things are commonly done. So one of the ways that we raise visibility is not just putting out content. This is very, very important. Content has been commoditized. AI can do content way better than any one of us. And the world does not need more content in the age of chat, GPT, et cetera. So what are humans good at?

What are humans gonna be visible for, at least for the near term, until AI takes over the world and the robots kill all of us? But until then, it’s three different kinds of content. Number one is how to think. So it’s not how-to information. How-to information has been commoditized. How to think information is about insight, high level strategic advisory insights. The second kind of content to share is what to believe.

what to believe and more importantly, what not to believe. So separating the signal from the noise, separating the myths from the truths, separating the, also separating the myths from the half truths, separating the outdated way of doing things from the current future focused way of doing things. And then the third component of the kind of content that we should be sharing is how to get ready for what’s coming next. Because high level people of any kind, corporate people, entrepreneurial people,

They hate being blindsided, they hate being ambushed, they hate being surprised by something they could have seen coming down the pike and they just somehow missed it. So if we can focus our visibility strategies in those three areas, number one, how to think, not how to, but how to think. Number two, what to believe and what not to believe. Number three, how to get ready for what’s coming next.

that will also elevate and separate you from all the noise out there.

John Jantsch (08:13.621)

So one of the things when you were describing kind of big picture was this idea of attracting right fit clients. what are some ways, I mean, I work with people all the time that they do have a differentiator, but they’re still attracting the wrong people. So what are some of the real kind of surefire ways that you help people attract that right fit client?

David Newman (08:19.437)

yes.

David Newman (08:28.877)

Yes.

David Newman (08:34.552)

So I think you really have to double down on being polarizing and divisive. And unfortunately in this climate, when I use the words like divisive and polarizing, everyone goes to politics, red versus blue, your guy versus my guy. It is not about that. It is about alignment with your vision, with your values, with what you stand for, what you stand against. So…

John Jantsch (08:44.18)

you

John Jantsch (08:48.564)

Yeah.

David Newman (09:01.878)

When I’m either speaking or working with a group on this, this is exactly the moment, John, where I get pushed back and they say, well, so wait a second, we’re going to upset some people. We’re going to get some flack for this. We might not be liked. We might, we might get some negative press on this. And I said, well, I want you to think about this. Think about what if I came to with an offer and the offer is I am going to set up a 10 foot, 10 foot tall gate.

John Jantsch (09:14.439)

Okay.

David Newman (09:31.35)

around your business. The only people that we admit through this gate are your best fit. Prospects, clients, partners, investors, media sources, acquirers, that’s all we let in. The gate automatically repels and keeps out all the terrible fits. The people you’d never want to do business with, the people that you would never want to partner with, the people that you would never take their money as an investor. And I sometimes go as far, John, as I say, okay, you know what?

Let’s put on the whiteboard. Let’s right now put on the whiteboard all the characteristics of your worst clients, your worst hires, your worst partners. And they say, lack of integrity, lack of ethics, didn’t do the work. They come in late, they leave early, right? They’re clock punchers. I said, okay, well, let’s look at this list on the board now. How do you feel about keeping all those people out of your company and out of your world forever? And then their shoulders suddenly just melt and they go, huh.

That would be great. I say, OK, welcome to market eminence. That’s exactly what it’s designed to do, that the perfect fits are hyper magnetized and the terrible fits want to go anywhere else but anywhere near you.

John Jantsch (10:44.841)

You know, it’s funny how often people have no prob, like if you ask them, who’s an ideal client for you, they kind of stumble around a little bit, but they have no problem telling you who they don’t want, right? It is pretty amazing. So a couple, and again, the subtitle of the book, 22 Strategies. I do, we were kind of kidding off air. I was going to have you list them all, but I would love to hear a couple. mean, I know you talk about speaking, publishing, podcasting.

David Newman (10:54.19)

That’s right. That’s right.

David Newman (11:10.648)

Sure.

John Jantsch (11:12.681)

some of the things we’re doing. So I’d love to hear a few of the strategies that you really think are kind of core to this approach.

David Newman (11:19.828)

Absolutely. let me me separate out there’s sort of two halves to the to the to the Apple, so to speak. The first half is the internal work that we need to do around making some leadership level decisions about who we are and who we’re not and what we stand for and what we stand against and so forth. And that’s really the bulk of the book is how to process that how to smartly engage with that level of thinking. The second half of the Apple is OK, now we have that.

John Jantsch (11:34.665)

Mm-hmm.

David Newman (11:48.93)

How do we amplify that? How do we magnify that and project that into the marketplace so that every pebble that we drop in the lake, the ripples start getting bigger and bigger. We start reaching more people, impacting more people and helping more people. So I’ll give you a couple from part one and a couple from part two. The easiest thing that people listening right now can do is one of the chapters is about your slant, your contrarian slant.

So think about three questions. So number one, what conventional wisdom do you secretly think is completely wrong, but you’ve never publicly challenged? So maybe within the four walls of your company, you’re like, my God, we’re not doing that again. That’s terrible. That never works, et cetera. But you’ve never said it publicly. So what conventional wisdom do you secretly think is completely wrong, but if you’ve never ranted and raved against it? Number two,

What harsh truth about your industry are clients desperate for someone to finally acknowledge openly? What are some of the elephants in the room in your business, in your industry with your target market when it comes to your category of product or service? And then number three, the third part of contrarian slant is what strong point of view do you already have that you already hold and believe truly that makes industry insiders uncomfortable but resonates

deeply and powerfully with your ideal clients. So if you just literally sit down for an afternoon, grab a legal pad, spend 20 minutes really digging into each of those three parts, you will end with a 60 minute block of time with a contrarian slant that’s gonna put you in the top 5 % of your industry if you were to amplify it, magnify it, et cetera. And I even have a chat GPT prompt. I know it’s gonna be tough for people to…

listener watch, but here’s the chat GPT prompt if people want to work a little bit on this on their own. And you’re going to take the flavor of this. can record, transcribe, whatever. Here’s what it sounds like. Using everything you know about my, my, our methodology, training and tools, give me a series of 10 contrarian quote crazy idea headlines I can use to convey my true distinction.

David Newman (14:14.892)

differentiation and point of view. This should be polarizing, this is still in the prompt, this should be polarizing in that it strongly attracts the right clients and strongly repels the wrong clients. And then you’ll get some initial output and then you can start the conversation, right? Make number seven even crazier, tone down number eight, bring more examples to number three. You will have such a fantastic time and no one’s brave enough to do this, John.

It sounds super simple, but most people are scared out of their minds to even take this one baby step. I hope that folks listening and watching are not the scaredy cats.

John Jantsch (14:45.492)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:54.281)

Yeah, and I was going to mention, I’m glad you did mention that, because AI is tremendous at that kind of brainstorming, as long as you look at it as kind of a thought partner and not like, you’re not looking for the output, you’re looking for the discussion as much as anything. I was at a conference one time and we just, we mentioned this idea, we’ve been kind of just kicking around this idea that business owners are really tired of agencies, or at least

David Newman (15:00.909)

Yes.

David Newman (15:07.202)

Yes.

John Jantsch (15:22.803)

what traditional agencies have done or not done for them. And so we just kind of jokingly, half jokingly mentioned to somebody, yeah, we’re promoting the anti-agency model. And literally three or four business owners said, we need to talk. So it’s a little bit of what you’re talking about. We did it kind of tongue in cheek, but it really, I mean, you got immediate feedback that that idea really piqued a challenge they were

David Newman (15:26.53)

yes.

David Newman (15:32.835)

Nice.

David Newman (15:48.354)

That’s right. And that is, you know why that’s great, John, all the reasons that you said, obviously, but it immediately telegraphs just with that moniker, un-agency, right? That we are against something that has been traditionally seen as the solution to fix this problem. You don’t want an agency, you want the un-agency, like the uncola back in the 70s and 80s. That was 7-Up’s claim to fame.

John Jantsch (15:58.591)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:10.431)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:15.443)

What do you find when, especially talking to CEOs, marketers are probably a little more open to this kind of idea of finding a difference. Particularly when you work with CEOs, what’s kind of the biggest mindset block that you have to get them past with this idea of market eminence?

David Newman (16:22.168)

Go young!

David Newman (16:35.33)

I think it really is that exercise that I mentioned a little bit ago about we’re gonna piss some people off, yes. We are gonna have some conflict, we might get some hate mail around this, yes. People who thought they liked us and respected us would suddenly turn us off and unsubscribe and go away, yes. But trust me, all the right people are gonna unsubscribe. All the right people are gonna go away.

John Jantsch (16:38.591)

Yeah. Yeah.

David Newman (17:03.318)

all the right people are not gonna come back to work for you or invest with you or buy from you. know, really figuring out, figuring out what is the game that we’re playing, right? So sometimes this results in niching down. Sometimes this results in opening things up to an adjacent industry that might be a little bit more, a little bit less risk averse, a little bit more.

you know, modern thinking. So people that work with old school industries sometimes realize, well, that’s not who we are anymore. And I’m sorry, I stepped on your line there.

John Jantsch (17:33.841)

let’s just face it, they have more money.

John Jantsch (17:41.865)

No, I was just going to say, let’s face it, you’re going there because they have more money.

David Newman (17:46.53)

Yes, yes, that could be true. That could be true. Funny story from a CMO standpoint. I have a friend who’s a serial CMO. He doesn’t intend to be fractional, but that’s how it ends up, because he gets fired every 18 months. He works with banks. And I said to him, I said, what is it with you and changing jobs? He says, David, I have the worst job in the world. I’m a marketer in banking. So they’re so risk averse. They want the bank presidents and CEOs

They want to look like each other. And then they wonder why are we stuck in this rate war? Why are people leaving us for an extra quarter percentage down the street? It’s because you’re totally commoditizing yourself by choice.

John Jantsch (18:31.145)

Yeah, I always find that really interesting that, you know, with industries are like, no, we don’t do that in our industry. And it’s like, then that’s an opportunity is what that is. So so funny.

David Newman (18:41.11)

Amen.

John Jantsch (18:46.481)

You mentioned the slant and I did want to, think you had two other gravity and generosity. We talked about gravity attracting right fit, but we haven’t really talked about this idea of generosity. And that’s one that I, you know, I really want to hit on because you know, this radical sharing of everything of expertise, because a lot of people have a, have a mindset that like I’m the expert. I don’t share. They pay me to share. So talk a little about that.

David Newman (18:51.638)

Yes, yes. sure.

David Newman (18:57.964)

Yes.

David Newman (19:03.565)

Yes.

David Newman (19:09.838)

Correct.

I’ll expand even further on that, John. They say, I can’t share that. That’s how I make the big bucks or that’s our secret sauce. That’s our recipe. I would just point out to folks, if you go online to your favorite online bookseller, walk into your favorite independent bookstore, you will find two giant sections. One is the health and weight loss section. The other is the financial and money management section. You hundreds of books and you know, hundreds more published every year.

John Jantsch (19:18.057)

Right.

David Newman (19:42.442)

If it was in a book, we would all be tall, rich, thin, sexy, and have a full head of hair. Clearly, I can read all the books I want. This ain’t coming back up here. So I want, I would challenge people that the best kind of generosity that you can give into the marketplace, whether it is in written format, audio format, podcast, webinar, I want you to take client facing content. Everyone clutch your pearls. I hope you’re sitting down.

Take client facing content that you’ve been paid for and make that into a giveaway. Make that into a lead magnet. Make that into a special report. Do a webinar on that for free for your target market and watch what happens because people are not paying you for information. We’ve already talked about this in a couple of ways, right? The information is not in the books. AI can crank out endless information way faster and bigger and better than any of us.

John Jantsch (20:31.711)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David Newman (20:39.67)

What they’re paying for is applied insight and implementation of the ideas. If they could do it on their own, they already would have. So they’re not gonna download your report. They’re not gonna come to your webinar. They’re not gonna watch your video series. But I’ll tell you, the more that you treat prospects like clients, the more prospects you will get.

John Jantsch (20:46.259)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:04.181)

It’s funny, I used to always say, especially 10, 15 years ago, people really didn’t share, because we didn’t have all these vehicles to share, right? Now it’s become really common practice. But I used to always tell people, they don’t want to know how to do it. They want to know that you know how to do it. And that’s really what you’re giving away, is that.

David Newman (21:20.174)

That’s right.

David Newman (21:23.851)

Absolutely right.

John Jantsch (21:25.653)

So David, I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you, of course, and then find out more about Market

David Newman (21:35.118)

Sure, so the best place to connect with me, my main website is DoItMarketing and everything related to the book as far as there’s all kinds of free trainings and downloads and videos and resources and worksheets that are connected to this market eminence idea that we’ve been talking about, that is at marketeminence.com.

John Jantsch (21:54.005)

Again, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

David Newman (22:00.512)

Such a pleasure, John. Thank you.

10 Questions That Reveal the Truth About Your Agency

10 Questions That Reveal the Truth About Your Agency written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch the full episode:

Overview

On this solo episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch lays out the 10 questions every small business owner should ask before hiring—or continuing to pay—a marketing partner. After decades of seeing business owners overpay for underperformance, John shares a practical checklist you can use to weed out smoke-and-mirrors agencies, avoid being held hostage by your own assets, and find true marketing leadership instead of task-doers. If you’re tired of vague reports, long-term contracts, and unclear results, this episode gives you a clear, no-nonsense framework.

About the Host

John Jantsch is a marketing consultant, speaker, and author of several best-selling books including Duct Tape Marketing and The Ultimate Marketing Engine. As the founder of Duct Tape Marketing, he helps small and mid-sized businesses build simple, effective, and scalable marketing systems.

Website: ducttapemarketing.com
Podcast Archive: Duct Tape Marketing Podcast

Actionable Insights

John walks through 10 key questions and what to watch for in the answers:

Who owns my marketing assets and accounts?
You should own your website, ad accounts, data, and tools—no exceptions. Agencies should have access, not ownership.
How do you define success, and how often will we review it?
Avoid vanity metrics. Push for clear definitions around leads, conversions, and revenue, plus a regular review cadence where they translate metrics into insight.
How do you connect tactics to strategy?
“Tactics = strategy” is a red flag. Look for a framework or system that starts with strategy and then maps to campaigns and tasks.
What happens if I want to end the contract?
Watch for long-term lock-ins, hidden fees, and non-compete-style clauses. Month-to-month or flexible arrangements signal confidence and transparency.
Who will I actually work with day to day?
Don’t get sold by the senior strategist and then handed off blindly. Ask to meet the team you’ll work with and understand their roles and experience.
How do you report on results, and can I see a sample?
Ask for a sample report and look for narrative, interpretation, and recommendations—not just raw numbers or tool exports.
How are you using AI, and what is still human-led?
You’re not trying to avoid AI; you want to know how it’s used to support strategy, operations, and performance while keeping your brand voice, judgment, and expertise human-led.
How will you collaborate with my team (and other partners)?
Good partners integrate with your internal resources and existing vendors, not operate as a disconnected black box.
What is your process for creating strategy before you execute?
Look for a clear discovery and strategy process: ideal client, core message, differentiation, customer journey—before they start pitching tactics.
What will you teach me along the way?
You don’t need to become a marketer, but you do need a partner who educates and empowers you to make better decisions—not one who keeps you in the dark.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

00:01 – Why This Episode Exists
John’s frustration with business owners getting ripped off by marketing partners.
02:06 – Question #1: Who Owns the Accounts?
Why ownership of websites, ad accounts, and data is non-negotiable.
03:20 – Question #2: How Do You Define Success?
Moving beyond vanity metrics to real business outcomes.
04:28 – Question #3: Tactics vs. Strategy
The danger of “magic behind the scenes” without a framework.
05:40 – Question #4: Ending the Contract
How to spot traps in long-term agreements.
06:37 – Questions #5–7: Team, Reporting, and AI
Who does the work, how results are shared, and how AI fits into modern marketing.
08:40 – Question #9: Strategy Before Execution
Why understanding your ideal client, message, and journey must come first.
10:54 – Question #10: Will You Teach Me?
The difference between abdication and empowered collaboration.

Insights

“If an agency owns your website or ad accounts, they’re not a partner—you’re renting your own marketing.”

“Vanity metrics are worthless unless someone can tell you what they mean and what you should do next.”

“Anyone can sell you tactics. You want someone who connects strategy to execution and outcomes.”

“The best marketing partners educate you, integrate with your team, and make you smarter and more in control—not more dependent.”

4 Pillars for Social Selling

4 Pillars for Social Selling written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

On this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Lorenzo Johnson, Director of Revenue Management and partner at Socially In, a leading US-based social media agency. As a LinkedIn Learning instructor and expert in B2B social selling, Lorenzo unpacks what’s changed on LinkedIn heading into 2026: from the rise of video and carousel posts to algorithm shifts, authentic engagement, and practical uses of AI. Discover how to optimize your profile, build real relationships, and avoid the common pitfalls that hold most sellers and brands back on LinkedIn today.

About the Guest

Lorenzo Johnson is the Director of Revenue Management and a partner at Socially In. He’s a B2B social selling strategist, LinkedIn Learning instructor, and content creator for Madcraft. Lorenzo has helped thousands of professionals and organizations drive revenue on LinkedIn through practical, authentic, and modern tactics.

Actionable Insights

Video and carousel posts are the best way to stand out from the flood of average AI-generated content on LinkedIn in 2026.
Social search is merging with traditional search—hashtags, long-form posts, and engagement matter for discoverability on and off LinkedIn.
Your Social Selling Index (SSI) score is built on four pillars: building your brand, finding the right people, engaging with insights, and building trusted relationships.
LinkedIn’s algorithm penalizes mass outreach, low-quality networks, and shallow engagement—focus on quality over quantity.
Use all profile features (professional mode, microsites, newsletters) to get more algorithmic “love.”
Social selling is a long game: expect 300+ days from first connection to closed deal if you’re doing it right.
Automation and AI can help with research, outreach, and follow-up, but don’t shortcut real engagement—be careful with scraping and gray hat tools.
Measure success by impressions, views, and engagement rate—not just meetings booked or sales closed.
Quality engagement, DMs, and real conversation trump cold outreach every time.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

01:11 – LinkedIn’s 2026 Landscape
Always Engine Optimization (AEO), search integration, and the new content game.
02:52 – How to Beat the AI Flood
Why video, carousels, and true insights win over “prompted” content.
04:40 – The Four Pillars of LinkedIn Success
SSI explained: brand, audience, insights, and trusted relationships.
08:06 – Tools & Features for a Strong Profile
Why professional mode and new features matter for reach.
10:16 – Relationship Building, Not Just Outreach
Why real engagement is the only way to win in social selling.
12:57 – Where AI and Automation Help (and Hurt)
Tools for scale vs. the risk of bans, and finding the “gray hat” balance.
19:22 – What Metrics Matter Most
How to track what’s really working in your social selling strategy.

Insights

“If you approach LinkedIn for quick wins, you’re playing the wrong game—social selling is about long-term relationship building.”

“Use every feature LinkedIn offers—profiles that leverage newsletters, video, and professional mode get algorithmic priority.”

“The best outreach is rooted in value: personalized video, insightful comments, and real conversation—not mass DMs.”

“Quality impressions and engagement are leading indicators of future sales—don’t just measure meetings or bookings.”

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.11)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Lorenzo Johnson. He’s the Director of Revenue Management and a partner at Socially In, a leading US social media agency. He’s a specialist in social selling, helping B2B professionals and SMEs leverage LinkedIn to drive revenue. As a content creator for Madcraft and an instructor on LinkedIn learning, Lorenzo teaches thousands worldwide.

There’s courses on social selling. So Lorenzo, welcome to the show.

Lorenzo Johnson (00:33.467)

appreciate you and thanks for having me today, John. I’m very, very excited to be here.

John Jantsch (00:37.76)

Awesome. So did I say the name right socially in? I had to kind of stumble over that. There’s a lot of letters together.

Lorenzo Johnson (00:40.857)

You did. No, you said it correctly. You said it better than a lot of people when they call us and they say social lion and other things like that. So you hit it right on the head, John.

John Jantsch (00:50.345)

Awesome. So let’s start. We’re going to talk mostly about LinkedIn today. So let’s set the table going into 2026, which we’re there. What’s changed? What do we need to pay attention to? What’s gotten worse about better about just kind of give us the give us the lay of the land for 2026 on LinkedIn.

Lorenzo Johnson (00:52.507)

Yes, sir.

Lorenzo Johnson (01:11.483)

Well, there’s a few things that’s happening on LinkedIn that I think everyone should be excited about, not necessarily fearful about, but absolutely kind of thinking about what they’re going to be shifting and changing. And so I’ll kind of get right into one of the biggest things that’s happening. And it’s around this term AEO that everyone’s kind of talking about and always engine optimization and always everywhere optimization. know, you’re hearing all of these different types of names and LinkedIn is actually one of those social platforms that’s also starting to

be incorporated a little bit more into that. What we’re starting to actually see is that content is starting to be indexed when you start to get into search inquiries and search queries. Technical things like leveraging hashtags and things like that are actually starting to also come up in search functions and Google and things like that. That’s also with other platforms like Instagram and things like that. But again, I know we’re focusing historically or this conversation specifically on LinkedIn. So.

The first thing that you’re seeing is that with all and like all social, you’re starting to kind of see this integration between social search. These, these avenues that used to be very separated and segregated are really starting to kind of work together now. And so that’s the first thing that we’re seeing right now is that content, long form content, putting out some of that thought leadership type of content that used to be really good and really exciting on LinkedIn. It’s kind of been watered down when chat GBT made everyone an expert all of a sudden and things like that.

but we’re starting to see that start to come back. So that would say that’s one of the first things that we’re starting to see,

John Jantsch (02:40.96)

All right, so let’s dive into that with kind of this flood of very average, you know, AI content. How does somebody take their content and make it stand out?

Lorenzo Johnson (02:43.749)

Okay?

Lorenzo Johnson (02:52.505)

Well, one of the biggest things is doing stuff like this. It’s that video content. It’s that content that necessarily can’t be just crafted using some words and things like that. It’s having the ability to get into conversations like this, speak people able to see your voice. So video content is absolutely really starting to take off from a from a true feature standpoint. One other feature that we’re seeing is carousel post, those types of content engagement features that are keeping people on a post for a little bit longer.

John Jantsch (02:55.438)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lorenzo Johnson (03:20.707)

just like a video would do. We’re also starting to see that have a big impact. But of course, as you know, that is something that could be easily kind of manipulated from an AI standpoint. And I mean, let’s get the elephant out the room as well. You can also script videos and use AI to do all of those different types of things too. So unfortunately, it’s kind of leaking into everything that we’re doing. But I would say video.

by far is the best way to not only posit yourself as that thought leader, but really separate yourself from a lot of the newsletter style type posts out there that as soon as you start to read it, it’s so clear that people are just running it through a chat GPT prompt and not even a quality chat GPT prompt at that.

John Jantsch (03:58.35)

Yeah, actually, I’m not even here. This is an AI avatar speaking for me. So I’ve actually had people ask me if I wanted to be interviewed on their show by an AI avatar. I haven’t yet done one. I just I was like, not. It’s too experimental. So I think a lot of

Lorenzo Johnson (04:02.715)

It’ll get there soon. It’s crazy.

Lorenzo Johnson (04:16.943)

What’d you, how’d you respond to that? What were your thoughts on that?

Nah. Well, it’s interesting. just saw…

John Jantsch (04:26.85)

I was going to say, I think a lot of people look at LinkedIn and they just think, okay, what am I going to post? That’s like how the day starts, right? You really talk more about a LinkedIn blueprint. You want to kind of unpack what the pillars of that are.

Lorenzo Johnson (04:40.355)

Yeah, so I like to kind of break it down and for everyone who doesn’t know, there’s essentially four pillars that LinkedIn uses to define if a profile is being used correctly and if you’re doing those appropriate things. More commonly referred to as an SSI or the LinkedIn Social Selling Index Score. Those four pillars are four things. The first one is how are you building your professional brand? The second thing is, are you finding the right people? The third thing is, are you engaging with insights?

And the fourth, and I would argue absolutely the most important thing is, are you building trusted relationships? And so if you were to break all of those downs, they actually get into all of the day-to-day execution of what you should be doing on LinkedIn. So again, when you start talking about building your professional brand, what type of thought leadership are you actually putting out there? What type of value-based, what type of resource-driven type of posting content?

Are you getting out there and putting out there for people to have a reason to come back to your platform to start off with? Finding the right people. One of the things that we’re actually starting to see more is LinkedIn is actually penalizing your impressions and your reach. If your audience isn’t quality, here’s what I mean by that.

If LinkedIn is starting to get this feel and algorithmically that you’re just basically reaching out to everybody, mass, if you’re using automation tools, which a lot of people are doing to send out mass invites and different things like that. If you’re not actually commenting, engaging, endorsing with the people as they’re starting to come in, LinkedIn is actually going to start to lower your impressions. So that’s why you’ll see people that have.

10, 15,000 followers, but yet their posts are still only getting 10, 15 type of posts and things like that. They’re not truly finding and building up the right audience. know, LinkedIn, unlike other social platforms, it’s not a popularity contest. know, LinkedIn isn’t like, Hey, hey, John Lorenzo, I want you guys to have a hundred thousand people that are kind of all over the place. LinkedIn would rather you have 1000 people that are locked in. They come to your platform for insights. You’re engaging back and forth. They much rather have

Lorenzo Johnson (06:45.903)

that type of relationship building. Engaging with insights. Are you actually commenting, engaging on other people’s posts? Are you also engaging on other content that’s happening? Are you sharing other types of content, keeping people on the LinkedIn platforms and things like that? One of the other misconceptions and just basic things that people don’t do that I see all the time is, you know, people share and copy posts without even having something as simple as like a caption or copy on it.

John Jantsch (06:50.232)

Thank

Lorenzo Johnson (07:11.541)

Small little things like that make LinkedIn really feel are you truly engaging with insights? Are you truly using this platform appropriately? And then that last pillar is again is are you building trusted relationships? And I know that’s very hard to kind of quantify and kind of line item out. But simply what that basically means is are the individuals that you’re connected with and that are connecting with you, are you guys engaging back and forth?

Are you DMing them? Are you liking comments? Are you endorsing? What type of interaction are you seeing? Or are you just kind of posting a whole bunch of kind of stuff out there? So those are typically the four pillars that LinkedIn is typically looking at that guides and decides algorithmic reaches, impressions, and things like that.

John Jantsch (07:55.852)

You mentioned at the beginning of that something called SSI. Is there a tool that your social is selling? Is there a tool you can go and put your profile in and it’ll tell you how you’re doing?

Lorenzo Johnson (07:59.483)

Mm-hmm.

Lorenzo Johnson (08:06.095)

There absolutely is. There’s actually a link, John, that I could pop over to you. Please excuse it. But it’s something as simple as linkedin.com backslash, like SSI score or something. I could get you an actual link. But the really cool thing is, once you log in and you literally click that link, it’ll tell you not only what your overall score is, it will actually give you a rating for each of those pillars out of a 25%. As of right now, and this does change sometimes, each of those pillars is equally weighted, 25%.

John Jantsch (08:15.094)

Okay.

Lorenzo Johnson (08:34.34)

So you will be able to see your rating out of that 25%. Of course, the aggregate score will be what your total LinkedIn SSI score, which will be out of 100.

John Jantsch (08:44.056)

Okay, so a lot of times when I talk to LinkedIn people, you see people doing courses, the very first thing is always fix your profile, update your profile, make it stronger. So what are some tips that you would give people that would make a stronger kind of selling?

Lorenzo Johnson (08:52.569)

Yes. Yes.

Lorenzo Johnson (09:01.615)

The biggest tip that I can give you is you need to use, this is just an algorithmic feature of social. The more features that you actually use and execute, the more quote unquote love that they’ll give you. So for example, and know, John, this is a question for you. I’m just curious since we’re talking, do you by chance have like professional mode activated on your LinkedIn profile or do you even know what professional mode is?

John Jantsch (09:20.91)

I do have it activated, yes, yes.

Lorenzo Johnson (09:22.989)

Of course you do. And so you know that once you activated that there’s some really cool things that you were able to do for completely free by simply clicking that button, the ability to post a newsletter, the ability to actually create a microsite landing page that’s right there where you can have case studies, pitch decks, YouTube videos, all of those different types of things, as well as just a few other searching features that you also kind of get access to. it’s really important to make sure you’re leveraging those features because again,

Once algorithms see that, they say, okay, this is a profile that we should continue to start to get love. So that’s absolutely one of the biggest ones that I see people don’t optimize on their profile. You know, everyone has the cover photo, everyone has the profile pic and things like that, but those additional features, making sure you’re about us is properly used. All of those things really matter, but I will say professional dashboard activation is key, is key, is key right now.

John Jantsch (10:16.654)

So one of the things I know, everybody says this, everybody knows this, you know, want to follow people, you want to engage with people, you want to eventually turn those into conversations. I mean, that’s how we sell, right? I don’t see very many people doing that well. You know, they’re trying to get to the end game, you know, as quickly as possible. So, you know, somebody will connect with me and I’ll think, yeah, that seems like a reasonable person to connect. I’ll connect in the very first email or DM that I get is,

Lorenzo Johnson (10:23.951)

Mm-hmm.

Lorenzo Johnson (10:31.578)

Mm-hmm.

Lorenzo Johnson (10:37.125)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (10:45.994)

an attempt to cause conversation, but it’ll be so silly. It’s like, so what are you most excited about in your business this year? And I’m like, stranger on the bus, just ask me that. It’s like, what? But people don’t seem to think that way. It’s like, want to get to that end game as fast as possible. How do you suggest, especially in a selling environment, that you actually create some

Lorenzo Johnson (10:49.071)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lorenzo Johnson (11:13.295)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (11:15.435)

engagement but make it authentic.

Lorenzo Johnson (11:18.519)

It has to be, and this is something I tell every single person when they start talking about focusing on LinkedIn, if you go into LinkedIn saying that I need business over the next six months, you’re completely playing the wrong game. Your strategy is going to be off. And I can tell you right now, John, you are not going to get any of that business that you’re going to see. And then you’re going to come back and say, LinkedIn, such a terrible business development platform. my God, it’s so bad and things like that. I was just talking to another company and they did an analysis on how long it takes to do what’s called either social selling.

or account-based marketing, ABM. It is currently taking approximately 320 days from the time you start that campaign until the time that new business actually comes into the door. That assumes that for that entire 320 days, John, you did things the right way. You’re providing value-driven content. You’re providing educational type of content. You’re providing those things that make it so that when people are ready to buy,

Not only have you already created the awareness of your product, the why about your product, but it becomes a no brainer why they should at least consider you when they’re going through that process. And so that’s the biggest thing that I tell people is if you’re not prepared, number one, for this to be a long term game, you’re not playing the right game right here. And that’s unfortunate. What we’re seeing, John, is we’re seeing a bunch of people who have seen these automation tools and they’ve been told that, if you, if you send a thousand messages out by percentages, you have to be successful, right?

And unfortunately we’re seeing a lot of that and it just tires people out from people who are doing it the right way. And so unfortunately now going into 2026 value driven content and engagement strategies is going to be even more important than it was this year.

John Jantsch (12:57.55)

So what pieces of that, because I completely agree. mean, it’s obvious when somebody’s just doing cold outreach to you, you you’re a piece of meat at that point, you know, that they’re trying to communicate with. So, but there are places where I think there are some automation tools, some AI that can help the process. What are some of the tools, you know, for example, if you’ve got a post that really is blown up and you’re getting lots of comments and people are engaging with it.

Lorenzo Johnson (13:03.416)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:26.314)

Are there ways for you to maybe move those people to another conversation, say an email, or obviously as much thoughtful commenting on their comments has to be done by hand, but are there parts that can actually make that obvious hand work easier and faster?

Lorenzo Johnson (13:36.09)

Yeah.

Lorenzo Johnson (13:44.787)

There is. I’ll tell you two tools that we, again, I can only speak for our agency, things that we’re doing successfully. The first one is actually a tool called Apollo. Apollo is a tool that integrates not only directly into your LinkedIn, it could integrate into your CRM systems. We use HubSpot, for example, why that matters and why we love it. Apollo is simply an integration tool that if, I was on John’s LinkedIn profile right now and I had it pulled up, I could click on the Apollo integration. It would tell me numerous things.

It will tell me number one, your email, contact information, phone number, a lot of that information that you may not put in your LinkedIn profile because of the exact stuff that we just talked about. However, Apollo has the ability to do what’s called scrape all of that type of information, which I’m sure you’re familiar with. We love Apollo. The way that we leverage it is if you we leverage when we reach out and we do corporate pay outreach campaigns, individual outreach campaigns, as soon as you show any form of interest, any form of interest,

We’re immediately putting you into our email system and things like that. The reason I mentioned that tool is because a lot of people don’t have their business emails in LinkedIn anymore because of what we’re talking about right here. Apollo allows you to still get that information. And then of course, as you can imagine, John, if we have that phone number, you bet you’re going to get a phone call that at least says, Hey, we were talking about this. We were chatting about this. Does it make sense for us to have a conversation? So that’s the first tool that I really, really, really enjoy using.

The second tool that we’ve been using, and full transparency, we’re just testing this, but I’m testing it because of something that we started initially in our conversation, and it’s that video seems to be opening up doors on LinkedIn. It’s actually a tool called Weasley. What it actually allows you to do is it actually allows you to create customized video outreach. So as opposed to doing this, hey, John, we’re in the same field type of conversation, it’s a more personalized video. Of course, you can do some customizations.

But the really cool thing it does is it actually will scroll the site and the LinkedIn profile of the person that you’re talking through. So not only can I say why, you know, I’m just calling, but I can say, hey, John, I was actually checking out your LinkedIn profile and look at what I saw. Here’s a post that you did this. I maybe would have done this a little different or here’s something that you did so great. I would lean into this and take it to the next level. And so we really love that because it combines everything we’re talking about video. So you can see my voice. You can hear me.

Lorenzo Johnson (16:04.571)

but it still is value driven. I’m not saying, hey, John, we talked to all of these different people. Do you want to set up a free consultation and things like that? It’s like, hey, look at your LinkedIn. This is what I saw. Look at your Facebook. Look at your website. Here are actionable things that we could potentially talk about if and when it makes sense and go from there. So I would say those are the two tools that we’ve been using this year that we absolutely plan on taking into 2026.

John Jantsch (16:29.23)

So speaking of tools, LinkedIn gets occasionally very nervous about tools that scrape its content. And we’ve all seen tools that get banned. And again, lot of it’s because people are being too aggressive with them, probably. So how do you kind of balance that idea that, I don’t know, are there legitimate ways to scrape? I don’t know if that’s the right term.

Lorenzo Johnson (16:35.235)

It does. It does.

Lorenzo Johnson (16:40.525)

Yeah, of course.

Lorenzo Johnson (16:53.499)

So no, no, no.

John Jantsch (16:55.24)

or if it’s really a matter of like, it’s only a matter of time before LinkedIn says, no, I don’t like

Lorenzo Johnson (17:00.335)

Now, so these tools are basically what are called black, gray, and white hat tools. Basically, all this simply means is that black hat tools are, LinkedIn says, absolutely not. Those are the things where you use them and you get caught. Not only is your profile being banned, it’s going to be hard to kind of get it back. Gray tools, which are the predominant use, like LinkedIn automation tools and things like that, those live in what we call that kind of gray area. They’re technically,

John Jantsch (17:06.648)

Mm-hmm.

Lorenzo Johnson (17:26.349)

not allowed to be used by LinkedIn. However, this year LinkedIn has basically said, as long as you follow these parameters, we’ll allow it to keep going. Biggest thing, for example, is a connection request limit. Moving forward, you can only send 100 connection requests per week unless you’re doing things the right way and stuff like that. As soon as you start to go over that, grey hat tools start to become out of the box. As long as tools are what are called more integrations and not necessarily scrapes,

Typically, LinkedIn is actually OK with that. We’re not seeing too many different things. For example, the tool Weasley that I’ve actually found is actually allowed to be integrated directly into your LinkedIn inbox through LinkedIn itself. It’s not even like a third party tool and things like Apollo that you have to use. So unfortunately, LinkedIn is always going to kind of always keep you in that gray area. Because again, at the end of the day, they don’t want people to come in and use a bunch of automation that ruins the experience.

which is what’s happened, John, over the past 18 months. LinkedIn has been not an ideal experience for C-level execs and hire. You open up your inbox and there’s 50 people a day that are providing zero value whatsoever. But there are tools that will at least allow you to make your life easy that LinkedIn doesn’t. So another one that we use that has never gotten banned is Phantom Buster. Phantom Buster allows you to scrape anything possible that you can think of, emails, contact information, post information. I mean, they have 100,

no exaggeration, probably 15 LinkedIn specific like scraping categories. We use that because again, it counts as an integration. It’s not actually integrating into the profile or anything like that. those would be three tools that we have seen that not had any issues. That’s typically minimum gray, if not in kind of that white hat type of space. And sorry to get so technical on that.

John Jantsch (19:12.026)

No, no, no, I think people need to hear that. What are some, you know, there’s basic measurement on…

Lorenzo Johnson (19:19.439)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (19:22.144)

engagement, new followers, you know, kind of thing. What are some ways to actually, other than like getting meetings or getting sales, what are some ways to measure your success, if you will, on LinkedIn?

Lorenzo Johnson (19:29.541)

Mm-hmm.

Lorenzo Johnson (19:35.055)

So one of the biggest things I actually am always looking at is I’m looking at views and impressions. That’s typically what’s defining my success. If I can get this in as many eyes as possible, like I’ve already mentioned, John, the conversion stuff will happen as time starts to go on and as you’re doing things appropriately. So I’m typically looking at views and then I’m looking at kind of that engagement rate per views. And then I’m basically saying the same thing we teach people to do. How do I optimize to create content more like that?

or less like that. If I’m seeing that every time I mention or tagging someone, it’s starting to work, well then I’d say, hey, let’s make sure that we’re putting longer form content. Let’s make sure we’re doing more of that. I typically personally am defining it by views and impressions. I want to get as many impressions as LinkedIn is going to allow me every single time.

John Jantsch (20:20.3)

Lorenzo, I appreciate you stopping by and catching us up on LinkedIn. Where would you invite people to connect with you and find out more about the work at Socially In?

Lorenzo Johnson (20:24.186)

Yes, sir.

Lorenzo Johnson (20:28.929)

Absolutely, please jump on to LinkedIn. It’s going to be Lorenzo Johnson. I’m one of the partners here at Socially In. Very excited to connect with you on there. And of course, John, I’ll get you that direct link to a profile. To find out more information about our agency, please just simply go to www.sociallyin.com. You’ll get an idea of not just the services that we provide. We have a wonderful case study section where you get to look at all the work that we’ve done, high quality, creative, and all of that good stuff as well. Look forward to having you all connect with me.

John Jantsch (20:55.982)

Awesome. Well again, appreciate you stopping by and maybe we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Lorenzo Johnson (21:02.053)

That sounds like a plan, John. Appreciate you for having me and thanks so much.

10 Questions Small Business Owners Should Ask Before Hiring a Marketing Agency

10 Questions Small Business Owners Should Ask Before Hiring a Marketing Agency written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In her first ever solo episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, Sara Nay—CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and author of “Unchained: Breaking Free from Broken Marketing Models”—shares the questions every small business owner should ask before hiring an agency, consultant, or freelancer. Drawing from her 16 years of experience, Sara highlights real-world horror stories and arms business owners (and agencies!) with the keys to transparency, ownership, and collaboration. If you want to avoid getting stuck with expensive, opaque, or unproductive marketing partnerships, this episode is packed with the practical, empowering guidance you need.

About the Host

Sara Nay is CEO of Duct Tape Marketing, host of the Agency Spark Podcast, and author of “Unchain: Breaking Free from Broken Marketing Models.” She helps small businesses and agencies build ownership, transparency, and strategic clarity into every marketing engagement.

LinkedIn: Sara Nay
Book: Unchained: Breaking Free from Broken Marketing Models
Duct Tape Marketing: ducttapemarketing.com

Actionable Insights

Small business owners are too often locked into expensive, long-term marketing contracts—with little clarity on results or account ownership.
Always ask: Who owns my marketing assets and accounts? (Spoiler: It should be you, not the agency.)
Demand transparency in reporting, regular reviews, and ongoing education—don’t settle for reports you don’t understand.
Insist on strategy before tactics; don’t hire a vendor who just wants to “do SEO” or “run ads” without understanding your business.
Avoid long-term contracts and “handcuff” clauses; month-to-month and clear exit paths are healthiest for all sides.
Meet the real team you’ll work with—not just a charismatic salesperson. Ask to speak with the actual day-to-day contacts.
Ask how agencies use AI and what remains human-led; look for “AI + human” answers, not “AI instead of human.”
Ensure your team stays informed and involved; agencies should empower, not gatekeep.
Ask for a sample report, a clear plan for strategy, and specific examples of what the agency will teach you along the way.
The best agencies leave you better educated, more empowered, and with true ownership—never dependent or in the dark.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

00:01 – Why Small Businesses Get Stuck with Bad Agencies
Real-life stories of businesses trapped by contracts, lost assets, and confusing reports.
04:16 – The 10 Essential Questions to Ask Before Hiring an Agency
Sara’s practical checklist for choosing the right partners.
06:45 – You Must Own Your Assets
Why account ownership is non-negotiable for small businesses.
08:42 – Strategy Before Tactics (Always!)
How to connect tactics to your bigger business goals and avoid wasted spend.
10:53 – The Danger of Long-Term Contracts
Why month-to-month is the gold standard in today’s marketing landscape.
13:20 – AI, Human Touch, and the Future of Agency Work
What to look for in agencies navigating the new marketing tech landscape.
15:38 – Involvement, Education, and True Collaboration
How agencies should keep you informed, empowered, and ready to grow.

Insights

“You should always own your website, accounts, and assets—never let an agency hold them hostage.”

“Great agencies start with strategy, not just tactics—they want to understand your business, not just sell you what’s in their toolkit.”

“Transparency, collaboration, and education are non-negotiables—if you’re not getting them, find a better partner.”

“Marketing is complicated, but you shouldn’t be kept in the dark. The best agencies leave you smarter, more empowered, and in control.”

Duct Tape Transcript

Sara Nay (00:01.218)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is your host, Sara Nay, taking over for John Jantsch today as host and also doing my first ever solo podcast because I am fired up about a specific topic right now.

So to give you a little bit of backstory, about a week ago on LinkedIn, I posted a couple stories of conversations that I had had with small business owners recently. And I led the post saying that I am sad and mad and fired up all at the same time. And so the conversations I had with two separate business owners, the first one was with a small business owner who has been paying an SEO company $8,000 a month and is locked into

three-year contract with him. On top of that, he had no idea if he was getting any results from the efforts and he didn’t know how to get out of the contract because he signed this three-year commitment.

Another story that I told on LinkedIn was another conversation I had with a different business owner, and he has been paying $10,000 a month for Google Ads to an agency. But the issue is the agency owns the Google Ads account, and on top of that, he doesn’t have access to it, and he has no idea how much of the money that he’s paying every month is going towards the agency’s management fees or the actual ads.

In both of these scenarios, the business owners were receiving reports from the agencies every month. They had no idea what the reports actually mean. It looked like foreign language to them. And so they’re spending money on marketing. They’re not really getting a return and they’re locked into these situations, both a bit stuck. The SEO scenario, he’s stuck because he signed a three year contract. The Google ads scenario, he’s stuck because this agency owns

Sara Nay (02:00.457)

his ads accounts. And so these stories fire me up. I’ve been speaking with, interacting with small businesses for about 16 years at Duct Tape Marketing and I wish that these were unique stories but unfortunately I hear things like this all of the time. And I think it comes from two different areas. think there’s, marketing is hard, it’s complex. A lot of people get into business because they’re passionate about something or they see an opportunity and all of sudden they need to start

understanding and learning marketing because that’s how you spread the word about your business. And so there’s a lot of people in the small business space as business owners that haven’t been properly educated about marketing and so they don’t really understand how to go about or purchase marketing from partners that are out there.

There’s also unfortunately some agencies that I believe take advantage of small business owners. I actually wrote a whole book on the topic. It’s called Unchained Breaking Free from Broken Marketing Models. We’ll add a link to the show notes. But I believe the best path forward for small businesses is the path where they’re owning their marketing and they’re collaborating with partners to actually get the work done moving forward. So as I said, fired up on this topic, I’m here to educate small

small businesses on how to ask the right questions when it comes to hiring an agency or a fractional CMO or a consultant. And I’m also here, if you’re an agency fractional CMO or consultant listening to this episode as well, I encourage you to write down these list of questions and answer them honestly to see where you stand on these items. Because I believe again, the best path forward is transparency and collaboration, working together, empowering small businesses.

versus keeping what we do behind the scenes in secret. And so with all of that being said, I wanna dive in as a follow up to my initial LinkedIn post, I did a second post that was essentially 10 questions to ask as part of the sales process to the agency that you’re considering hiring. And so these questions are very focused on understanding the type of partnership you’re getting into. And so I wanna make that very clear. There are other questions you should ask

Sara Nay (04:16.377)

top of this except like such as their work experience and speaking to referrals and reading different case studies and all of that stuff this these ten questions are very focused on understanding the partnership that you’re getting into so if you’re a small business listening to this write these down the next time you’re considering hiring an agency a consultant a fractional CMO a contractor a freelancer ask these questions so you’re better prepared to Understand what the relationship will look like moving forward so the first question and in some cases

I would argue is the most important is who owns the market my marketing assets and accounts and so this one is very important because I’ve heard so many stories over the years of marketing agencies owning the accounts on behalf of their clients and so they’re building these assets that their client is basically handcuffed to this agency moving forward and so the scenario I said in the opening with the example of the person spending $10,000 a month

Google ads, the agency owned the account. And so when they parted ways, the small business basically lost their Google ads setup because they had to start from scratch over again. So that’s one scenario. Another scenario I hear very often, unfortunately, is a agency basically builds a website for the client and they own the website, the URL, hosting, all of the things. And so now all of sudden the small business is tied to this agency until they

part ways and then they essentially have to rebuild this website from scratch when I would argue a website in a lot of cases is one of the most important assets when it comes to small business marketing. And so you absolutely should be asking this question when you’re considering working with an agency or outsourced solution. It’s who’s going to own the accounts and their answer should be you. You small business owner will own the accounts and we will give you, or you can give

us access to the accounts as managers or whatever the setup would be and then when we part ways you kick us out and you continue to own this asset that we would have spent all of this time building together. So that should always be the answer I believe is you should own your website, you should own your paid accounts, you should own technology and tools, AI platforms that people are bringing in. Like you should be the owner as the small business and the agency should be granted access to your account.

Sara Nay (06:45.903)

so you can kick them out when you part ways. Another question, number two on the list is how will you measure success and how often will we review it? And so again, in the opening, I shared those two stories of the person paying for SEO services and the other one paying for Google Ads. They were getting a report that looked like foreign language every single month and they have no idea what it means. And so that doesn’t help anyone, ultimately.

And so when you’re asking an agency that you’re considering to work with, how will you measure success and how often will we review it? You wanna see that they’re measuring success for certain things on a daily basis, some on a weekly basis, some on a monthly basis. Maybe they’re diving into certain metrics on a quarterly basis. It really just depends on what all you’re tracking in terms of the cadence. But you wanna…

have an agency that you’re working with that has a clear plan for measuring what they’re going to measure, how they’re going to measure it, how they’re going to report on it, how they’re going to analyze it, how they’re going to use it to drive their decisions. And then how often will we review it is really important as well because I’ve heard so many stories about companies just sending this report that they don’t understand and that’s all the reporting that they get. I believe that you should be speaking with your agency or your fractional CMO or whoever you’re outsourcing or delegating or working

with for marketing, you should be meeting with them on a regular basis to talk through the specific metrics that you agree to track together. And then you should be using those metrics to then guide your quarterly marketing planning moving forward. And so it’s really important to determine what to measure, how it’s going to measure, agree on a communication cadence, and then look to the agency to be educating you on what the metrics mean and why they’re important and how they’re deriving decisions moving forward.

Thank

Sara Nay (08:42.165)

Question number three, how do you connect tactics to strategy? So I actually was just speaking to a new client of ours and he told me yesterday that he believes he’s wasted about $100,000 on bringing in marketers to execute on tactics. And the reason he believed none of that was successful was because he didn’t have a proper strategy in place. And so I absolutely agree with him in that scenario. There have been so many stories.

that I’ve heard over the years where someone will pitch, you need email marketing, or you need paid advertising, or you need SEO work, because that’s what we know. And so they’ll bring in an agency to do just those things, but the agency hasn’t taken the time to learn the business or what they’re trying to accomplish or where they’re trying to go or who their ideal clients are or what message resonates with them. And so they’re skipping through all of that because they’re staying in their lane of tactics that they’re comfortable with without understanding

understanding what the overall strategy is for the specific business and why that specific tactic will help reach their goal. So if you’ve been following along with Duct Tape Marketing, we’ve been saying strategy before tactics for as long as we’ve been in business. And so this one really is very, very important to me. Okay, number four. What happens if I want to end the contract?

Actually, on my LinkedIn post, someone commented, based on that one specifically, that he had an agency send him a contract that basically said, after we end our agreement, you can’t work with any other similar solutions for a two-year period.

That’s insane to me. And so with that, think, you know, 12 month contracts even is long because marketing is evolving. It’s shifting. It’s changing for our clients. We are only planning out a quarter at a time. So three months at a time because we need to understand what’s working, what’s not working, what’s shifting, what’s changing, how SEO is evolving. And so locking people into longer contracts, I just think it’s hard on both the agency to predict, but also the small business owners.

Sara Nay (10:53.513)

because if they’re not happy, they’re gonna be locked into this long term, spending money, wasting money, where they could have shifted to a different solution. So as long as we’ve been in business at Duct Tape Marketing, we have always done month to month contracts in our consulting engagements, and I think that’s absolutely what you should be asking for and looking for in any agency work moving forward. Number five, who will I actually work with on the day to day?

also heard a lot of stories over the years of I had this incredible sales call with this agency and I was so impressed and this person had all of this experience and they sold me into this engagement and I got locked into a six month contract, let’s say, and then all of a sudden I was working with an intern level marketer and so I was sold on this thought leadership, this viewpoint and then I was handed something completely different. And so think it’s really important as part of the sales process is if you’re talking to someone, it’s am I gonna work with

in strategy and retainer or I’m gonna work with other people on the team. If so, who are those other people? How long have they been with you? What is their experience? And also, can I talk to them if you want? I think that’s a good, fair follow-up question. Can I speak to the people that I’ll be working with as well? So get to know who your main point of contacts are gonna be in the beginning of the engagement throughout the full engagement moving forward.

Number six for questions is how do you report on results and can I see a sample? This one’s also important. I highlighted the importance of reporting earlier on another question, but hopefully they answered that if you’re interviewing them successfully. They talked you through it. They’re gonna educate. They’re gonna simplify. They’re gonna work together. They’re gonna collaborate on reporting, but then ask for an example of the reporting. And so if they are saying it’s gonna be simple and easy to understand, the next step

is okay great, show me what your reporting looks like for a current client and hopefully then they’re willing to then show an example reporting for a client, stripping out any identifying information, but then also they’re able to talk you through what it looks like and why and how they put it together and the reasoning behind certain things. So that’s a great follow-up question to that reporting one earlier. Number seven, how do I integrate AI and what is still human led?

Sara Nay (13:20.045)

And so I think this is a really important question. I am all about AI when it comes to elevating humans. And so I think that all marketing agencies should be bringing in different forms of AI to help elevate and improve the work that they’re doing.

but not to just replace themselves or just to work faster ultimately. And so we offer for all of our clients when we get started, we offer a package called Strategy First. So 30 to 45 day engagement consists of a ton of research and putting together a marketing strategy and plan. As part of that, we use AI to give us more information than we ever had before. So for example, one of the steps in that is doing competitive research. Before we used to have to

out and look at, do all of the work manually. And so we could only get, you know, as much information as we could spend on that component. But now we still do work manually. We still go out and we look at the competitors websites and social profiles and what they’re in, content upgrades and all the stuff we can find online. But we’re also able to pull a deep research report in a tool like chat GPT that gives us pages and pages of research on their competitors in a much more detailed way than we ever have before.

And so in that scenario, we are using humans to analyze the competitors, but we’re using AI to give us more information to be able to make better decisions moving forward. And so you wanna look for those types of answers when you’re asking agencies how are they using AI. You wanna understand that they’re using AI because they should be. If they’re fearing it, they’re being left behind. But you also wanna make sure that they’re using AI with the human plus AI reprogramming.

approach, not just the replacing humans with AI approach, or you will end up not getting great results, I believe, over time because the value is elevating our work we can do with AI below us. Number eight, how do you ensure my team stays involved and informed? And so a bit of a red flag, would say here is if someone says, we’ll just handle all of your marketing, your SEO and your ads, and we’ll just, you know, we’ll send you a report and you just

Sara Nay (15:38.24)

focus on your business and your growth and you’re gonna have all these leads come in. I don’t think that’s gonna be a great scenario. What you wanna hear here is we are going to involve you in the process. We are going to educate you along the way. We are gonna learn as much from you as possible on the front end and able to do our work on the back end. We are going to work on mastering your tone of voice and your style and we are gonna master your thought leadership perspective. So you are

able to focus on where you should be in your business in the CEO seat or whatever it might be, but it’s gonna take some time for us to get up to speed. We are gonna learn, we’re gonna involve you in your team, we’re gonna collaborate with you, we’re gonna educate you along the way versus, oh, we’re just gonna do our special magic work over here and you all stay over here. That doesn’t necessarily work. Number nine on the list, we’re getting there. What’s your process for creating strategy before execute?

This one is probably the nearest to my heart. It’s something that we’ve again been teaching strategy before tactics for years. I truly believe that every

Marketing plan should start with a deep strategy dive and so we have something called the marketing strategy pyramid The foundation is the business strategy if you’re bringing in a marketing agency They should take some time on the front end to understand your business What is your mission your vision your values your current revenue your growth goals? Do you want to sell one day? They need to be understanding those things deeply so then they can work on the middle part of our pyramid, which is the marketing strategy

component because the marketing strategy needs to guide the business where the business is trying to go. Once a marketing strategy is mapped out, then in our pyramid we have a system strategy and a team strategy. And so I fully believe that when working with an agency or a marketer of any kind, they should come in, understand the business strategy, create the marketing strategy, analyze the team. Then you can say, okay, here’s what we should be doing from

Sara Nay (17:49.632)

from a marketing perspective and now here’s who we can have to help. so strategy before execution all day every day. And then last question and one of my favorites as well, I like all these questions I guess, is what will you teach me along the way? And so there…

I think as I said earlier beginning in this episode, I think some of the challenges in the small business space is marketing is complicated, it’s evolving, there’s a lack of education. People don’t get into business to become marketers, but they are forced to in a lot of ways. And so if you’re bringing in an agency, a fractional CMO, a consultant, a freelancer, if you’re bringing in anyone, you should be asking, what will you teach me along the way? Because their job in my view is to educate clients, to set clients

up for success to be able to make better marketing decisions moving forward. You’ve all heard it, leave it better than you found it. That’s how we approach all of our engagements. come in, we educate, we empower, we uplift, we give our clients ownership because my goal is, let’s say we part ways in the future because maybe you’re hiring someone in-house, you’re in a much better spot from an educational empowerment standpoint than you ever have before. So that is my list of tips.

I am passionate about this topic I could go on and on but I appreciate you listening to again my first ever solo episode on the duct tape marketing podcast Again, I wrote a book called unchain breaking free from broken marketing models It’s all about taking ownership instead of renting your marketing So if any of this resonated with you today recommend grabbing a copy of that book My name is Sarah nay, you can find me on LinkedIn as well. I would love to connect with you there Thank you so much for listening

and we will see you next time.

Learn More About Our Strategy First Engagement

10 Questions to Ask Before You Hire a Marketing Agency, Consultant, or Fractional CMO

10 Questions to Ask Before You Hire a Marketing Agency, Consultant, or Fractional CMO written by Sara Nay read more at Duct Tape Marketing

By Sara Nay, CEO at Duct Tape Marketing

If you’re hiring a marketing agency or fractional CMO, these 10 questions will help you evaluate their priorities, processes, and how they treat clients before signing any contract.

Recently, I spoke with two small business owners who reminded me why this topic matters. One is locked into a three-year, $8,000/month SEO contract they barely understand. Another pays $10,000/month for Google Ads but doesn’t even own their ad account. Small businesses deserve better. This post is about helping you take back control of your marketing.

The best marketing agencies for small businesses lead with transparency, strategic thinking, and collaboration; not just tactical deliverables and fancy metrics. If they can’t answer these questions clearly, keep looking.

10 Questions to Ask Before Hiring A Marketing Agency:

1. Who Owns My Accounts and Data?

Red flag: If it’s not you, walk away.

When outsourcing your marketing, your ad accounts, CRM, analytics, and email lists should always remain your intellectual property.

If an agency insists on creating everything under their own logins or refuses to give you full access, that’s not a partnership.

Why it matters: If you ever want to transition providers or bring things in-house, you shouldn’t have to start from scratch or lose years of data.

Pro tip: Insist on setting up your own accounts and giving the agency access, not the other way around.

A good place to start for ensuring account ownership:

Google Ads: The advertiser should have admin on the ad account and grant the agency access through a manager (MCC). Ownership access can be revoked by unlinking. Google Help
Meta Ads (Facebook & Instagram): Your business should own the Meta Business Suite and ad accounts and the agency should be a partner, not the account owner.
Analytics: Create the GA4 account under your legal entity. The account owns the data for its properties. Google Help
Reporting: Require direct logins and exportable reports. No screenshots only.
Contracts: Spell out who owns creative, ad accounts, audiences, and CRM lists.

2. How Do You Define Success, and How Often Do We Review It?

Red flag: They focus on clicks, impressions, or follower counts without tying those numbers to business outcomes.

At Duct Tape Marketing, we call these vanity metrics. They make a report look good, but they don’t move the needle for your business.

A good partner defines success around outcomes that matter to your business: qualified leads, consistent sales, and customer lifetime value. They also review results with you on a regular schedule so you can make smart adjustments together.

So, what should you actually track? Here’s an example of what that might look like;

Top of the Marketing Hourglass (Know, Like, Trust): Focus on visibility and awareness. Measure where your visitors come from, which channels drive organic growth, and how your brand presence is expanding.
Middle of the Marketing Hourglass (Try, Buy): Pay attention to engagement and conversion activity. Track which campaigns or channels generate leads, form submissions, or meaningful interactions, not just website traffic.
Bottom of the Marketing Hourglass (Repeat, Refer): Connect marketing activity to sales and retention. Watch metrics like customer acquisition cost, repeat purchases, referrals, and overall profitability to see which efforts deliver real results.

When your metrics reflect business goals, you can see what’s working, what’s not, and where to focus next and you don’t need a PhD to analyze it.

3. How Do You Connect Tactics to Strategy?

Red flag: They can’t explain how a blog post or an ad campaign fits into a broader plan.

Too many marketers sell tasks: a new website, a funnel, or social media management. But without a strategy, it’s just noise.

A strong partner will bridge the gap between strategic marketing vs tactical marketing, ensuring every tactic supports a defined business goal.

4. What Happens If I Want to End the Contract?

Red flag: Long lock-in periods, high cancellation fees, or vague off-boarding processes.

One of the biggest marketing agency red flags is unclear cancellation policies or hidden off-boarding fees. Transparency should be the baseline. A confident, experienced marketing partner will make it easy to part ways and won’t hold your business hostage.

Ask this question early and get the answer in writing. A fair agreement should include:

A clear termination clause that outlines how and when either party can end the contract.
Reasonable notice terms (for example, 30 days) so both sides can plan for a smooth transition.
Defined deliverables and ownership rights that make it clear you retain access to your data, creative assets, and marketing platforms.
An off-boarding process that covers the handoff of accounts, passwords, and ongoing campaigns.
No excessive penalties for ending the relationship before the renewal date.

The goal is mutual accountability, not restriction. A trustworthy partner should be confident enough in their results to let you walk away without unnecessary barriers. It’s best to do month to month or quarterly contract lengths if possible.

5. Who Will I Actually Work With Day to Day?

Red flag: The senior strategist who sold you on the engagement disappears after the deal is signed.

You deserve to know who’s executing your marketing and how much experience they have. When working with a marketing agency, make sure the strategist you meet during sales is the same one managing your account.

Request an introduction to your actual account manager or strategist before you commit.

6. Can I See a Sample of Your Reporting?

Red flag: They avoid showing real reports or only offer screenshots.

You don’t need to be a data analyst, but you do need reporting that makes sense to you.
If the data is too complex, irrelevant, or unclear then you won’t use it.

Clear, actionable marketing performance reporting is non-negotiable; you deserve reports you can actually understand and use.

7. How Do You Use AI, and What’s Still Human-Led?

Red flag: Either extreme from “We use no AI” to “Everything is automated.”

AI is here to stay, and good marketers use AI to amplify strategic thinking not replace it.

Ask directly: how agencies use AI in marketing and remember a balanced partner blends automation with human insight for smarter execution.

Ask how they use AI tools for research, content, or analysis, and how they maintain a human, strategic oversight.

8. How Will You Collaborate With My Team?

Red flag: They operate in a silo or treat your internal team as an afterthought.

Your marketing partner should integrate with your team; whether it’s your sales staff, internal designers, or customer service reps.

Look for someone who values collaboration, communication, and clarity.

9. What’s Your Process for Creating Strategy Before Execution?

Red flag: They jump straight into tactics without a clear process for discovery, positioning, and planning.

At Duct Tape Marketing, strategy always comes first. Building a marketing strategy with any strategic agency should always start with identifying ideal clients, brand messaging, and the customer journey before any tactics begin.

If a partner skips this, they’re selling execution, not results.

You can ask them to walk you through their idea of a marketing strategy step-by -step, use the marketing strategy pyramid to help guide you.

10. What Will You Teach Me Along the Way?

Red flag: They want to keep you in the dark, making you more dependent over time.

Great partners make you smarter. They help you understand what’s working, why it’s working, and how to think more strategically about your business.

This doesn’t mean doing it all yourself. But it does mean being in control and informed.

Let’s Raise the Standard

The marketing industry has a transparency problem. Too often, small businesses are left wondering what they’re paying for or worse, feeling trapped in relationships that don’t serve them.

But if more business owners start asking these 10 questions, the industry will have no choice but to level up.

You deserve a partner who leads with strategy, acts with integrity, and delivers not just the results you want but clarity on what those results mean to you.

Before you sign your next contract, print these questions out. Bring them to the call. Watch how the answers shift your confidence and your clarity.

Want a Proven Process That Puts Strategy First?

That’s what we do every day at Duct Tape Marketing.
If you’re looking for a simple, practical, and effective system, we’re here. Let’s talk.

FAQs

Why are these questions important for small business owners?

Because marketing can easily become a black box.
These questions are designed to bring clarity and control back to the business owner ensuring you get results, not just a flurry of activity.

What if a marketing partner can’t answer some of these questions?

That’s a red flag. The best partners have thought deeply about their process, reporting, collaboration, and strategy.
If they fumble or avoid these topics, it may reflect a lack of experience or transparency.

How often should I revisit these questions once I’ve hired someone?

Ideally, during quarterly reviews. These questions don’t just help you choose a partner they will help you manage that relationship over time.

Is it okay to ask these before even having a discovery call?

Yes; in fact, we recommend it. Share them ahead of time or use them as part of your vetting process.
A serious, confident provider will welcome them.

Trust, Storytelling, and the Future of Brands

Trust, Storytelling, and the Future of Brands written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

On this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Ernie Ross—global brand strategist, founder of Ross Rethink, and creator of the Intangence methodology. Ernie’s new book, “Intangence: How Human Connection Creates Value,” explores why the most valuable assets in business and life are intangible: trust, purpose, stories, and authentic relationships. Ernie unpacks how brands can move beyond features and benefits to create real, measurable value through meaning, connection, and purpose—even in an age of AI and eroding trust.

About the Guest

Ernie Ross is a globally recognized branding strategist, innovation leader, and founder of Ross Rethink. His agency has shaped brands, political movements, and ideologies across the Caribbean and beyond. Ernie is the creator of the Intangence Methodology and author of “Intangence: How Human Connection Creates Value Between People, Brands, and Ideologies.”

Website: intangence.com
Book: Intangence (available at Amazon, Walmart, Target, Indigo, and more)
Courses: Masterclass and certification programs validated by the UN University for Peace and Ecole des Ponts

Actionable Insights

Trust is the new brand commodity—meaning, not features, is the foundation of value in today’s world.
Intangible value is real and measurable: what matters is not just what you offer, but what it means to people.
AI and digital manipulation have made trust and authenticity even more precious—and more powerful to brands that consistently deliver them.
Emotional storytelling (not just product features) connects people and creates resonance, loyalty, and forgiveness.
Human connection can’t be faked or replicated by AI—expression, experience, and authenticity are irreplaceable.
Purpose-driven brands start with three questions: Who am I? What is my purpose? How will I be remembered?
Viral messaging comes from being relevant, having high regard, and resonating deeply—not from being the loudest.
Intangible assets (brand, reputation, relationships) are worth far more than physical assets for most leading companies today.
The universal truth: everything of value begins as something intangible—meaning, emotion, connection.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

01:10 – Why “Intangence”?
Ernie explains why the language of human connection needed a new word and framework.
02:13 – Trust as the New Commodity
Why trust is now more valuable (and harder to measure) than ever.
04:42 – Breaking Through Fake and AI-Generated Noise
How to show up authentically and build real trust.
07:49 – The Human Difference in an AI World
Why only humans can experience, create, and value true connection.
10:54 – Storytelling as the Heart of Resonance
The Dove Men’s Care example and why emotional stories beat features.
14:30 – Three Essential Questions for Brand Purpose
The introspective process that reveals a brand’s universal truth.
16:45 – Cultural Nuance and Universal Truths
How meaning and connection differ—and overlap—across regions.
18:33 – What Intangence Means for Marketing and Leadership
Why intangible value is the foundation for building brands, movements, and even societies.

Insights

“Nothing has value unless it means something to you—intangible value is the foundation of every relationship, brand, and movement.”

“Trust is now the new brand commodity—people will pay more, forgive more, and stay longer with brands that earn it.”

“Storytelling creates human connection and resonance, even when products themselves are undifferentiated.”

“In a world of AI and deepfakes, authenticity and human experience are irreplaceable assets.”

“The most valuable things in business and life can’t be weighed, held, or shipped—but they are real, measurable, and transformative.”

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.21)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Ernie Ross. He’s a globally recognized branding strategy and innovation leader, founder of Ross Rethink and creator of the Intangence Methodology. His award-winning agency has shaped brands, political movements, and ideologies throughout the Caribbean and beyond. We’re going to talk about his new book, Intangence, How Human Connection Creates Value.

between people, brands, and ideologies. So Ernie, welcome to the show.

Ernie Ross (00:34.594)

Thank you so much, Joan. Thank you for the opportunity.

John Jantsch (00:37.4)

Alright, so I’ve been in marketing a long, long time and one of things I know is that creating a new word is really hard. To take something, create it, even though if it makes complete sense to you, you still find you have to explain it a lot and have people understand it. It’s like creating a new category of a product.

So why’d you do it, Ernie? Why did we need a new word? And then, of course, obviously, I’d invite you to explain, what is it? What do you mean by in tangents?

Ernie Ross (01:10.808)

Well, you’re right. It was a challenge. To define a space so exclusively that you own it. And intangible values and the science of human connection. Well, it is defined as the language of human connection. I like to say there are over 7,000 languages spoken in the world today, but the language of human connection is not one that is oftentimes.

John Jantsch (01:42.158)

Well, I suspect trust is a giant part of it as well, right? I mean, that’s one of those things that a lot of a lot of very established brands have a lot of trust with their market, their their customers. And sometimes that’s hard to put. That’s hard to measure. It’s certainly I think people understand it has value, but it’s hard to say, it’s worth X. So are you are you suggesting that not only do we need to focus on these things, but that they might actually be

Ernie Ross (02:05.006)

Sure.

John Jantsch (02:11.842)

more tangible than we think.

Ernie Ross (02:13.76)

Absolutely. Actually, I would go as far as saying trust is the new brand commodity. We live in a world where it’s hard to determine fact from fallacy anymore. Whether it’s AI generated or it’s being generated by a human being that is manipulating us, that’s one of the imageries on social media. So here’s an example.

John Jantsch (02:19.406)

Yes, yes.

Ernie Ross (02:39.372)

that if you take a look at what’s happening either politically or with a product or brand, it is difficult to discern whether that image or even the spokesperson is actually real. It’s very difficult for us to determine that. Or in reality, if something goes wrong with a brand or a company, within a fraction of seconds or a minute, that image and those opinions, whether it be internal or external to your company,

goes viral. So that we live in a world where intangible values matter more than ever. And if there’s anything I wanted your audience to take away today, John, it is the…

cornerstone of the principle of intentions and that is something only has value when it holds meaning to you. Nothing in life, whether it be a physical asset or a human relationship, is what I call derivative meaning. It only has a value because of the meaning you attribute to it. Worth, on the other hand, is a little different. Worth is what the market is willing to pay for it.

Value is determined by meaning. So what determines work? The extent to which you believe in the value, which takes you through what I call the circle of consumer sentiment back to meaning at the end of the day. That’s what determines our lives.

John Jantsch (04:01.902)

Yeah, I want to stay on that point of trust a little bit because I think I read, who’s the group that puts out the trust index every year? It’s an all time low. And I think as you mentioned, one of the things that’s making it even worse is AI, to the point where I think people are actually now assuming what they’re looking at is not real.

in a lot of instances. And so how do you cut through that? mean, to somebody who is being real, that is very authentic, but now is kind of being lumped in with what the sentiment is, how do you break free from that?

Ernie Ross (04:25.815)

of this.

Ernie Ross (04:42.488)

You know, much like any human relationship, we’re measured by more than what we just offer. We’re measured by what we mean to someone. And to show up authentically is really to be true to manifesting those ideals of your brand as you would in any human relationship. Here’s an example of that. You would pay around $11.5 million

for a one minute ad on the Superbowl, transient medium. And there’s an ad I always like to refer to for a particular brand that I would pause after 58 seconds of its television commercial. And I would ask the audience, tell me what story is being told, because you never see the product being referenced or used at all.

And the ad is really about the relationship between a father and his child. The entire ad just shows fathers interacting with their children. And after 58 seconds, if you had spent $11.5 million of your client’s money and said, is what I think you should run, you’d think you were crazy. And finally, in the last two seconds, the logo comes on for Dove Men’s Care. But…

It was more than that. You can’t just tag a logo to the end of an ad like that. They launched this movement called That’s Care dot com, which supported a paternity care for men and championed the cause of men as parents around the world. You can imagine which soap I use, by the way, as a single ad.

So it’s really about not just showing up by having an intangible value and putting it in a commercial, but manifesting that value and being true to it. In fact, Edelman just put out a report in 2024 that showed trust was the number one factor in influencing consumer decisions and that 85 % of the market

Ernie Ross (06:51.01)

was willing to pay more premium price for a product that they believed in and would even be forgiving when there was an error in it. Like any human relationship, you would forgive someone you really care about if you felt they were acting in your interest.

John Jantsch (07:07.322)

I certainly know I’ve done that, paid more and I’m willing to pay more. And I think a lot of people are, mean, that we’re risk averse. And so a lot of cases, I think that if we know we can trust a certain brand or something, we’ll just go back there because the risk, I suppose, of being let down is too high, even if it’s imagined.

Ernie Ross (07:31.0)

Sure.

John Jantsch (07:31.738)

Talk a little bit about, mean, obviously, as AI is replacing humans, or at least that’s way it’s being pitched in a lot of cases, how do we make sure that we are nurturing human connections as people are feeling more and more distance from you?

Ernie Ross (07:49.868)

You’re absolutely right. While I’m not a critic of AI, I think it has a phenomenal impact on how we’re going to develop as a species. But here’s the difference that I’d like to carve out of it. Artificial intelligence is not artificial intelligence. It could mimic human emotions, but it cannot actually encounter and experience it. It cannot encounter love or grief or hate or anger or fear.

So that’s what’s unique about us. If you gave me a work of art, John, and I loved it, and I said, wow, John, this is incredible, I’m gonna hang it on my wall, and you said, well, it was created by artificial intelligence, it would immediately be diminished in its value to me, or a piece of music for that matter. Those are expressions of our humanity, that’s what makes us real. And nothing can mimic that. So that artificial intelligence is limited by the fact that it is not human.

cannot encounter those human emotions. And that’s the space and role we will always have, I think.

John Jantsch (08:54.446)

Well, I agree with you thoroughly, but let me back up on that a little bit. If I think a piece of art is still a piece of art, why should it matter how it was created?

Ernie Ross (08:58.222)

Sure.

Ernie Ross (09:06.818)

Because as much as though, if you had to show the whole intangible space, if there were Picasso that he had created, but he had never signed it, it would not be authentic, right? It would not have the same intangible value. So that it is determined by the ownership of an individual that has created that piece. Here’s an example. You might have heard about the duct tape and the banana.

John Jantsch (09:14.394)

Sure.

Ernie Ross (09:32.206)

that was created at this station. It sold recently for $2 million. Or John Cage, who created four minutes, seconds of this piece that no one plays. Those are examples of what is authenticating and giving it value and validating it is our regard for the person who is originating the piece. But if it’s done by AI,

John Jantsch (09:32.881)

yes, yeah, of course I did.

Ernie Ross (09:58.306)

then it could be duplicated and replicated a hundred times over. It’s AI generated, it’s not created by John. You are unique in the world. So when you create a piece, is unique to its own individual that would ever exist on this planet ever again. And that’s what makes us unique and that’s what makes the pieces created by human unique.

John Jantsch (10:19.61)

You

started off by, or you gave the example of the Dove and Men’s Care products, and really you kind of put the word in the story they were telling. And I want to go back to that a little bit because I think one of the most powerful ways you can make connection is with stories. And I think a lot of marketers have woken up to that idea, certainly the last five, 10 years. So what role do you think storytelling, authentic storytelling plays in

in communicating what a brand stands for.

Ernie Ross (10:54.356)

Absolutely. Telling an emotionally compelling story, any narrative of that kind, makes it memorable. It connects you authentically with your… We’re essentially, as human beings, sentient beings. Most of our decisions are being made by the way we feel, not by logic as much as we’d like to think it is. And we’re engaged by stories. And it is essence of who we are.

It is what we’re created of memories, memories that are made of stories. So providing a brand is embodying an intangible value woven together through an emotionally compelling story. While that is happening, that will certainly be a point of resonance once the shared intangible value has been embodied in that particular offering. Here’s an example. If you and I were going into the beverage industry,

And I said, John, I’ve done everything with this product. I don’t think it’s going do remarkably well. It’s not particularly attractive in its colors. Black.

It has no nutritional value whatsoever. I’m not going to sell it in flavor. But I’m going to guarantee you 1.9 billion units every day around the world. You think that’s crazy. But that’s exactly what Coca-Cola does. And it’s woven together by these really emotionally compelling stories. They don’t sell it in flavor, taste, the feeling, open happiness, real magic, all themes over the last 10 years. So if a product, a beverage,

that has no nutritional value, that contains 38 grams of sugar, can be sold as an embodiment of the satisfaction for the craving of human connection. Woven together tree, more shake-upelling stories, I think is the best evidence of the fact.

John Jantsch (12:38.234)

Okay, well again, I agree with you, but I’m going to push back on another. They’re selling poison under, you know, that, right? And so are they really manipulating people to buy a product that is really not good for them? I would suggest that that’s probably using what you’re talking about, you know, for evil rather than for good.

Ernie Ross (12:59.982)

Very good, absolute point. I remember I had to give a talk at the Global Happiness Summit right here in Costa Rica, the United Nations established University of Peace. And I gave a talk on Coca-Cola and everybody in the room was stirring and said, why are you doing that? I said, well, don’t shoot the messenger. They own the space on happiness. Now, who determines whether it’s manipulative or positive is based upon the lens you’re filtering it through. I agree with you.

John Jantsch (13:17.439)

the

Ernie Ross (13:28.706)

But they’re using techniques and devices that are so compelling that’s effective. Maybe those of us who are pushing climate change or operating an NGO could learn from some of these techniques. Because ultimately, it’s determined by outcome. But if we can employ and deploy some of those techniques and devices that those big brands are using, maybe we would push the needle forward a little bit in terms of the

the more noble ideals and projects that we have. So you’re absolutely right. It’s more about how are they achieving it than whether it’s being done for greater good.

John Jantsch (14:00.42)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:06.648)

Yeah. So if I’m a company not of a Coca-Cola size by any means that has been selling features and benefits and I now think, hey, we need to change and we need to connect and we need to discover our purpose so that we can actually tell that authentic story. Where do you help people start?

Ernie Ross (14:30.84)

There are three schools of thought that make up the tangents. The first is called pillars of purpose. It’s an introspective process that asks the most three probing questions you can ask of a brand or of yourself. Question one is who am I? Question two, and is who am I to you? Question two would be what is my purpose? What greater purpose do I serve to you? And the last question is how will I be remembered?

What lingers with you after interaction, whether you see the packaging or an ad that was run, what stays with you? And out of those three are like signposts to take you to what I call the universal truth. Something that is your brand ethos that is universally acceptable. As an example, if you were a brand of water, it could be no one in the world should ever go thirsty. So it would…

That would be building the brand architecture in an emotional space. Notice it’s not what is it, it’s who am I? What is my purpose? How will I be remembered? And then the second school of thought is what is called currency of conversation. How do you make the message viral? How do you get the message out there? And that lands on three principles. Is the message relevant? Do I have a high regard from where I’m hearing or it’s coming from? And does it resonate with me at a deeply fundamental level?

The final school of thought would be the science of human connection, which are the techniques and devices you’re using to be able to create that connection based upon purpose, passion, or do you get a passion following what I call a polyphonic understanding of the marketplace polyphony.

coming from a musical term where an instrument can play more than one note at the same time. In much the same way, you have to track what’s happening with emerging trends, changes in attitudes, consumer behavior, and so on, to be able to travel ahead of your headlights, so to speak, so that you can measure the response that you need to have in your brand storytelling.

John Jantsch (16:32.515)

You work in some different markets outside of the US. In your view, do you think there are cultural differences in not only how people market, but how people build trust, how people get connected to brands?

Ernie Ross (16:45.62)

Absolutely, absolutely. Each market has its own dynamics and so on, but there is, however, that space that I call the universal truth, where it’s all expansive, regardless of what market. But at the end of the day, reality is really a perspective. In our offices, as you come into the building, there is a very unusual object that reinforces this.

It looks like what appears to be a mirror with a crack in it and there’s a broom perched against it. A lot of people come into the office and they say, why do you have this object here? And I said, you tell me. And they look at it and they talk about maybe the frailty of life. so I said, no, it’s just what it looks like. And the.

It is done by, it’s an installation done by an artist from Argentina called Leandro Ehrlich. And it’s actually an illusion. He’s just created an open space, put a frame of metal running across it diagonally, and makes it look like a crack. He’s put a broom in the front and a broom in the back. Now you can see right through this object, John, you don’t see your own reflection. But nine out of 10 people stand in front of it, including me, when I first got it.

and see a mirror. And it’s based upon the whole principle, know, that we don’t see the world the way it is, we see the world the way we are. And it reinforces the idea that we have to question this version of reality. So to your point about what works in what part of the world, it’s about that point. Being able to question the reality as determined by the audience that you’re reaching to. What is their version of this reality before you begin to authentically connect and do it?

John Jantsch (18:21.774)

You spread the word of intangence. What do you kind of hope for maybe the wider world of marketing leadership, human behavior for this idea to catch on?

Ernie Ross (18:33.868)

For that I’ll go to the last chapter and I just want to read a little bit of it for you, if I may. This is really to me key to what I would love everybody to take away from it. It reads, if nothing from nothing is an irrefutable law of physics, then what could possibly have first existed before anything else? In the beginning, everything was entirely intangible.

This is a profound insight into the question of what first existed. And throughout the book I demonstrate how real and powerful the world of intangibility is. As an example, if you took all the companies traded in the S &P 500, the value of it is about $28 trillion. And if you sold every physical asset, you wouldn’t even get to 20 %

of the $28 trillion. So it’s all intangible assets and defined through an intangible meaning. So the world exists. What is one of the world’s largest transportation companies? Uber. How many cars do they own? What’s one of the world’s largest retail companies? It’s Amazon. How much mortar and stone do they actually have? And if you looked at all the major brands in the world, every single one from Apple to

Microsoft or to Coca-Cola. They have charts done by their accounting firms that are measuring their intangible value greater than that of their tangible value. If I sold you the Coca-Cola company today and I give you all the factories and all the buildings and I kept the name, I would be the one to win the game. So it’s an intangible space. And so that’s what I would like to take away from. To recognize, if you took this into a…

a spiritual realm, if you will, and you ask the question, how did we actually begin? How did this all begin? Now you’ll get theories from scientists to religious people, but if we can agree on one principle, that is all intangible. I have a little cartoon in the book of a magician pulling things out of a hat, and it says it can’t be weighed, it can’t be held, it can’t be shipped, but it exists. It’s intangible.

Ernie Ross (20:52.502)

So essentially that’s what I’d like to think we are at the end of the day.

John Jantsch (20:57.602)

Awesome. Well, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there somewhere you would invite people to connect with you, find out about your work, and obviously connect with your book?

Ernie Ross (21:08.408)

Sure, it’s intangines.com. It’s spelled I-N-T-A-N-G-I-E-N-C dot com. That’s the website. The book is available through Amazon, Walmart, Target, Indigo, and several other outlets. There are courses that are taught. There’s a four to five minute master class. And there’s a three day program validated by the United Nations Established University for Peace. And in Europe through the…

business school called Ecole des Ponds. So the work has been, the body of work has been given great assessment and testimonials by Harvard professors and so on, but more importantly, it’s the number of people around the world, over 10,000, that have participated in the program. I’m humbled by the responses we’ve got, and I’m grateful to you, John, for giving me yet another platform to ventilate the views.

John Jantsch (22:06.202)

You bet, and we’ll have a, for those of you listening, we’ll have a link to Intangence in the show notes as well. So, Ernie, again, I appreciate you stopping by and maybe we’ll run into you one of these days in Costa Rica. All right, take care.

Ernie Ross (22:18.946)

I look forward to that, John. I’ll be your guide for sure. Thank you so much. Cheers.

Why Hope Is a Leadership Strategy

Why Hope Is a Leadership Strategy written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

On this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Dr. Julia Garcia, psychologist, speaker, and author of “The Five Habits of Hope.” Julia shares how hope isn’t just a feeling—it’s a set of practical habits that anyone can build to move from survival to thriving. Drawing on research, client stories, and her own journey overcoming adversity, Dr. Garcia explains how reframing adversity, processing emotions, and building real community can turn even the darkest moments into sources of strength and innovation.

About the Guest

Dr. Julia Garcia is a psychologist, speaker, and author dedicated to making hope a practical tool for transformation. Through her Five Habits of Hope framework, she helps organizations, leaders, and individuals build resilience, process adversity, and foster cultures of belonging and growth.

Actionable Insights

Hope is not just a mindset or emotion—it’s a set of learnable, repeatable habits that can be built by anyone, even in adversity.
The Five Habits of Hope blend emotional processing, reframing adversity, building community, taking emotional risks, learning to release, and repurposing pain into purpose.
Reframing adversity starts with replacing negative language and identities (“I’m worthless”) with healthier narratives (“I’m worth more” or “I’m also courageous”).
Emotional risk isn’t about adrenaline—it’s about opening up, expressing emotion (even joy), and connecting with others despite the risk of rejection.
Community and belonging are essential—loneliness can strike anyone, but habits of hope help build genuine connection and support.
Release is essential: Letting go of what you’re holding—stress, pain, pressure—creates space for growth and new stories.
Hope is built by going inward, not through outward achievement; it’s about aligning your inner narrative with your real values.
In business and teams, hope habits boost collaboration, creativity, retention, and create environments where people contribute—not just consume—culture.
Measuring hope is less about “getting better every day” and more about having a repeatable process for returning to hope when you feel lost.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

01:02 – Hope as a Habit, Not Just a Feeling
Why hope is a learnable process, not just a fleeting emotion.
02:47 – The Dark Side of Hopelessness
Julia’s personal journey and the universal struggle with despair.
04:22 – The Five Habits of Hope (Overview)
From owning your story to repurposing pain into purpose.
06:13 – Reframing Adversity with Language
How changing your self-talk can reshape your identity and outcomes.
07:35 – Emotional Risk and Real Connection
Why being vulnerable is the key to breaking loneliness and building community.
10:24 – Measuring Progress with Hope
Why inward alignment is more important than outward achievement.
12:35 – Hope in Business and Teams
How leaders can build cultures of hope, collaboration, and innovation.
14:47 – The Power of Release (Exercise)
A hands-on exercise to let go of stress and create space for hope.
18:05 – Realistic vs. Unrealistic Hope
Why hope starts with honesty, not false positivity.
19:09 – Hope as a Practical Strategy
How habits of hope drive innovation, leadership, and culture change.

Insights

“Hope is a habit, not just a feeling—there’s always a way back to it, no matter how lost you feel.”

“You can’t have hope without honesty. The first step is to face your feelings and own your story.”

“Release isn’t weakness—it’s how we make space for growth, change, and new beginnings.”

“In business, hope drives creativity, collaboration, and real contribution—not just survival.”

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.976)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Dr. Julia Garcia. She’s a psychologist, speaker, and author who has dedicated her career to teaching the science and practice of hope. Her Five Habits of Hope framework blends research, client stories, and her own journey overcoming adversity. She’s worked with organizations, schools, and leaders to help them move from survival to thriving.

Making hope a practical tool for transformation. We’re going to talk about her new book, The Five Habits of Hope, Stories and Strategies to Help You Find Your Way. So Julia, welcome to the show.

Julia (00:40.184)

Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be here.

John Jantsch (00:43.686)

So and I’m sure you get asked this all the time. I know you have an answer for this, but I’ll tee it up anyway You know a lot of people think of hope is like an emotion or a mindset and you’re reframing it actually as a habit not just something that Happens to you, but something you actually can control so unpack that for me

Julia (01:02.924)

Yeah, definitely. Well, I guess the best way to explain this is, do you know when you have hope? Do know when you feel it? Would you agree? Okay. And do you know when you don’t? Have you ever felt like you didn’t have it?

John Jantsch (01:11.413)

Yes, yes, yes.

John Jantsch (01:17.166)

Yeah, you know, like we’re down by three touchdowns and there’s three minutes left, right?

Julia (01:19.854)

Exactly. So you know when you have it and you know when you don’t. it’s one of those things that’s connected to our feelings. And so the biggest thing is we don’t always have a process or a way to navigate our feelings. So when we do that, then we can always have a process back to hope. So it starts with emotional habits to help us build and navigate back to hope. Because at the end of the day, I could tell you,

Hope is a cognitive science, but it really comes down to how you feel about it. And so if you’ve got feelings that are blocking you from having hope, then what we need to do is actually focus on how we process and navigate our feelings with emotional habits of hope.

John Jantsch (02:03.046)

And I think we’ve all experienced people that probably shouldn’t have that much hope, but they seem to, right? I mean, like they’re in a situation where you think I would never want to find myself in that situation, but that person still seems pretty hopeful. I mean, I think that explains a little of what you’re talking about, isn’t it?

Julia (02:08.366)

If all’s hope is not the same. Yeah. Yeah.

Julia (02:23.342)

Yeah, I like to debunk some of the things that actually hope aren’t. And so sometimes people think hope is being happy. And that’s not like true. That’s not what it is. And some people think you have to have a lot of it or a big amount or be the loudest about it or be super positive. And that’s not true either. You can have a very tiny bit and it might even be unseen to other people. And it could be just enough to get you through.

John Jantsch (02:47.418)

So what’s the, because you allude to it in your bio, what’s kind of the specific story in your life that kind of tested this idea for you?

Julia (02:56.504)

Well, I never thought hope was like something that takes seriously that could help me in my career and my relationships in life in general. had no idea that it was like the single greatest predictor to our health and wellbeing. I really didn’t think that it had much substance to it. But when I look back to what happens when we don’t have it in the moments I have been hopeless, that is a darkness that you don’t wish upon anybody. And in my work, I’ve actually had like a front row seat to

millions of people sharing those dark spaces that they’ve been in. They could be professionals, they could be students, they could be parents and family members. And it really didn’t matter what demographic a person it was or where they were from. That kind of similar dark place of despair was something almost everybody has ventured to and not sure how they were going to get out of it. And that really opened my eyes to it’s not just something I’ve felt and struggled with that I’m seeing the masses of people I work with.

There’s a disconnect in being able to face our feelings so that we can get out of those places of darkness or despair that affect our relationships, our workflow, our teams, our culture, and the way that we build our lives.

John Jantsch (04:10.374)

So I don’t want you to go habit by habit and tell us the whole story. People should buy the book to get the whole story. But give us a little bit of the overview of the habits themselves. First one, own your own story.

Julia (04:22.796)

Yeah, I think that the emotional habits are really the premises for me. I did anything but face feelings. I thought like if I got real about my feelings or got vulnerable in any way, shape or form that I was weak, that I’d be a burden, those things. So it helps us really navigate the emotional things. And one of my favorite ones that I think your listeners will really like is habit number five, which is

the habit of repurposing. And it’s where we take parts of our story and we rewrite it, we rebrand it, we rechannel it into something innovative, creative, a project, anything that you can think of. This was actually something I had. There was, for an example, I wasn’t in the space of social media at the time, but I started really observing how people were using it and the impact it had on culture. And one day I learned that there were some people who were

getting harassed online and even taking their lives to the experiences that they were having from social media abuse and harassment and things like that. So what I did is I took the anger and the frustration I felt of learning about that and how people were experiencing it in a very harmful way. And I created a mobile app to help create a safe space for people online. And this was years ago, but the point is I took a feeling and I repurposed it through an emotional habit of hope.

and I created something from it.

John Jantsch (05:47.238)

So one of the big themes I think in the book is this idea of reframing adversity. Obviously people that are feeling very hopeless, you the first step is to kind of reframe that. So how do you help people kind of deal with that? Or could you even share an example from your own life or somebody you’ve coached that really took that big step, that big first step, I guess?

Julia (06:08.568)

Yeah.

Julia (06:13.666)

Yeah, I think reframing has a lot to do with the language and replacing language because really what happens is we feel a certain way and then we start to do things in response to that feeling. So for example, I didn’t feel like I had worth, I felt worthless. And so then it became, I would do things that maybe weren’t helpful for me to advance my career or relationships. They actually were the opposite. They were self-destructive.

And then I would be like, yep, because I’m worthless. So then it would affirm an identity, a sense of self. So the feeling informed my identity. And then it just kept going on this negative loop. And you know it, if you’ve ever had those thoughts, if I can’t do it, I’m not good enough. I’m less than, I’m worthless. And so instead of just stopping those habits in our minds, because that’s really hard to do to just stop something, what we do is we interject and we replace it with something. So we could say, I’m worth more. Or we can also add something. We could say,

I’m anxious and afraid, but I’m also courageous and brave. And it’s actually breaking thought cycles and rewiring those neural pathways in our minds so that we can rewrite our stories that we tell ourselves in our mind that tell us who and who we aren’t. So our thoughts and feelings are starting to align with the identity that we feel empowered by.

John Jantsch (07:35.216)

There’s a lot in the news lately about kind of an epidemic of loneliness almost that seems to be really pervasive. You talk a lot about the need for community as and relationships as a big part of kind of getting as one of the habits actually even. So how can somebody who is really feeling that, you know, that sense of loneliness take advantage of that idea?

Julia (07:46.904)

Mm-hmm.

Julia (08:00.728)

Yeah, think when I think of lonely, loneliness does not discriminate. You could be super connected, really successful and feel utterly alone. And I want to say that because if you’re listening and you feel that, I just want you to know you are not alone in that. And habit number two, I would say is a really big one for this generation in particular. It’s the habit of emotional risk. So I used to think risk taking was like adrenaline rushes. I’ve jumped out of an airplane three times, love roller coasters, all the things.

But emotional risk is very different and only you know what you hold back in emotionally. Only you know that you didn’t actually fully open up to that person you’re in a relationship with. Only you know you didn’t, you withheld. Even joy. I have people who I work with who are not just withholding and struggling in suppressing emotions like sadness or anger, they’re actually withholding joy too because when you get in that emotional habit of withholding, you’re withholding everything.

So it’s not just sadness, it’s joy too. And only you know what that is, but we have to believe there’s value and worth in taking that emotional risk. And so the flip side is you could get rejected. Your idea could get thrown down. You can look stupid and feel like a fool. So there is a risk. That’s why it’s saying it’s called risk. But if we are brave, no matter the outcome, I believe we will like who we are becoming.

And I think that’s what’s really important to people that they really do value is the person they are. I know sometimes we attach success with things we do, but at the end of the day, we have to look ourselves in the mirror. We’re the ones who have to lay down with ourselves that night. So when we actually value and appreciate ourselves, then regardless of the outcome, if we were brave that day, I think we’re going to like the journey we’re on.

John Jantsch (09:49.51)

So lot of works on habits or to talk about habits, you one of the core.

elements is really this idea of just do a little every day, know, get a little better every day, you know, kind of thing. How do you help people? Because I think, you know, do two more push ups a day is pretty tangible, As I have it. But it’s but you know what I mean? It’s a very tangible thing, right? But like, have a little more hope each day. How do you how do you help people kind of quantify or measure or keep the momentum going?

Julia (10:11.574)

Not for me.

Julia (10:24.118)

That’s one of the trickiest things in my industry is when you are working with feelings, quantifying is really hard. That kind of data is really hard. It’s a lot of feedback in order to get that quantitative and qualitative. But I would say the biggest thing, if you want to measure, I would say is actually don’t do that because this constant perform and get better and

John Jantsch (10:31.237)

Yeah.

Julia (10:48.494)

be better is not really what I’m saying. What I’m saying is instead of going outwards to achieve X, Y, and Z, let’s just get better at having a process to go inward. So it’s actually to me the opposite because the internal place, when that gets aligned with our values and a sense of worth, then the external things matter less. And we enjoy the journey a lot more and we can actually enjoy the relationships and the success that we’ve garnered.

John Jantsch (11:18.886)

So it’s almost a little counterintuitive. It’s like when they talk about meditation, it’s like you’re not going to get benefit of meditation if you’re trying to get benefit from meditation. So it’s kind of that.

Julia (11:27.982)

That’s exactly it, 100%. 100%. And I think we don’t always get to know ourselves, like who we were before we were overly stressed, before we had all this pressure on us, who we were before puberty, you all the things, like who were we? And like, let’s get to know that person, me, for all the pressures and the success and things like that. So I like to think about it as like, if we were, say, a pen on a desk and then pressure is the paper over us, and then expectations is another paper.

paper over us and it’s kind of just like a process of getting those off so that we can begin to write our story the way that feels aligned with who we really are.

John Jantsch (12:09.008)

So I know you do a lot of individual work with individuals, but you also, I know, work with some business leaders and teams. So how do you translate this into business speak, if you will? I know it’s the same concept, but when you go and work with a leader or with a team, how do you make this feel like a business thing instead of like psychology, so to speak?

Julia (12:22.295)

Yeah, no, definitely.

Julia (12:35.168)

Yeah, of course. mean, making it personal for sure. We all know what burnout does to our teams. We all know that turnover, how much that hurts our bottom line. We all know what it’s like to have someone we work with who we don’t want to work with and who we don’t like working with. And when we have these emotional habits of hope, it trains businesses to solve problems instead of just be on survival mode. helps us find a path forward collectively instead of

feeling like we’re going to collapse under stress. It helps improve actual business outcomes, team culture. And some of the ways that we can think about that is through, let’s say the habit number four is receiving. And that’s all about collaboration. It’s learning to actually listen, to learn, to adapt, to include, to participate. And habit number five that we spoke a little bit about earlier, how that translates really into effective business leading is contribution.

A lot of people are part of a culture and they are a part of a culture, but they’re consuming it they’re not contributing and creating it. Especially in your team workplace environment, you assume that so-and-so is the leader. So this is just what it is. But the more we can find ways to contribute, then we can make pass forward. And another thing about that is when we’re collaborating, which is number four, receiving, we’re allowing ourselves to be sparked with new ideas and innovation.

And to build that team place culture, which is really important because it’s really easy to get discouraged in the workplace to just be on autopilot mode. But when we create a culture of hope, what we’re doing is we’re fostering connectivity or foster with emotional risks, right? We’re, we’re fostering, a better workplace environment when other people are listening and also engaging and contributing. And when we’re all part of a collective goal and mission. so ultimately it’s.

It’s a way that we can move forward together instead of being on like that autopilot mode.

John Jantsch (14:37.862)

Do you have, when you work with, maybe with individuals or with teams as well, do you have exercises that you share or teach or give them to really reinforce? Yeah, well, not on me. I’m not gonna be emotionally, I’m not gonna be emotionally vulnerable.

Julia (14:47.986)

definitely. Do you want to do one right now? It’ll take just a couple of minutes. Let’s do it. No, we’ll do it together. We’ll do it with… No, it’s not. Don’t worry. We’re going to do it together. We’ll do it together. Okay. Let me see both of your hands. Grab both of your hands. Okay. I want you to think about all the things that are pressures, stressors, things that make you feel like you’re struggling. Okay. We’re going to think about them. You got some things in your mind? You don’t have to say them. But you do? Okay. That was a yes. Okay.

So now squeeze two fists really tightly. Now, if I were to come next to you and try and open your fist, I shouldn’t be able to, because that’s how hard you’re going to be squeezing. So if you’re listening right now and you would like to participate, what you do is you think of things that are just really stressing you out, things that you’re struggling with that you’re not opening up about, that you are just, you’re independent. You’ve got this. You’re going to figure this out. You are strong-willed. You are high-performing. You’ve got it. So I want you to just keep squeezing the fist. Is it getting exhausting yet? Keep doing it.

I have nails, so it gets to hurt. Just don’t hurt yourself, okay? If you’re bleeding or something, like, you can stop. But keep doing it. Now, if you’re doing this and I was like, okay, go about your day, but keep doing this, you’d probably figure it out, John. You’d probably, like, use your nose on your phone or use your elbows to pick things up. You would probably figure it out because you’re probably really independent, hardworking, resilient, all of those things. So if you’re listening, you’re probably going to figure out even how to drive with these two fists in your hand.

Because the thing is, we actually can do almost all the things that we’re up against. We can be really resilient. But on the count of three, when I say release, you’re going to let go. One, two, three, release. How does that feel? What’s the first word that comes to mind?

Julia (16:30.924)

Better. Because here’s the thing, the number one thing that I heard was the word release. So that really helped me form the emotional habit number three, which is release. Because what we do as human beings, we focus so much on being resilient and we associate resilience with isolation and independence that we hold so many things. That we hold it until it is holding us back. Because the thing is, John, you could do that all day, but you’re going to be restricted.

And when you open your hands, when you let go, when you have a process, a regular process to release, it will impact every single area of your life, personal, relational, professional, spiritual, you name it. It’s going to impact every single area of your life. But the temptation is to hold it all on yourself. So we have to get in the emotional habit of practicing release.

John Jantsch (17:22.214)

So I have practiced meditation for many, years and my favorite metaphor for meditation is that all those thoughts or those things that you hold, think of them as clouds and you can just like push them away. Little floating clouds.

Julia (17:33.934)

Mm.

Julia (17:39.148)

Now, mine is saying, I love that. I’m going to get you to get a surfboard and to ride a cloud, to not push it away, but to ride the cloud. Make it a slide, go down, you know, and to use something with it. Do something with the cloud.

John Jantsch (17:40.56)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:51.718)

Yeah.

Alright, so this is perfect point for this question. How do you distinguish between realistic and unrealistic hope that somebody might have?

Julia (18:05.371)

Yeah, the biggest thing, great question is when you think of the word hope, it doesn’t mean happy. And a lot of people think false positivity. That’s not what hope is. I actually think to replace that with instead of false positivity, it’s feelings processed. Because the first thing to hope is honesty. You cannot have hope if you ain’t honest with yourself. So being falsely positive, that’s not going to get us there.

John Jantsch (18:08.23)

you

Julia (18:30.818)

You don’t have to project happiness and you don’t have to have a ton of hope. You can have like a tiny, tiny, tiny little seed of it. And that’s enough to interject the negative thought cycles and to start rebuilding the neural pathways in our mind to reshape how we think and how we feel.

John Jantsch (18:49.062)

And I’ll end with letting you kind of bring this back full circle because there’s certainly a number of people have said it. think it was a former chief, army chief of staff that it’s mostly attributed to, but that hope is not a strategy. And I think what you’re doing is reinterpreting what that means.

Julia (19:09.762)

Yeah, hope is a feeling because that’s how we know it. That’s how we describe it. But it’s a habit. It’s something we can learn and unlearn. And if you felt hopeless before, there was a way you got to that hopelessness. So that means there’s a way back to it. There is a way to hope. And when you have hope and you pair that with being a leader or an innovator or a creative, what happens is you start to innovate more. You start to strategize better. You start to…

think through problems, you start to have expectations, you start to build culture that people can collaborate in and connect in, and you start to change the trajectory of what’s possible.

John Jantsch (19:54.552)

Awesome. On that note, Julia, I appreciate you dropping by the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there someplace you’d invite people to find out more about you, connect with you, certainly find out more about your work and the five habits of hope?

Julia (20:06.914)

Yes, I would absolutely love to connect with you on any of you can find me online, Dr. Julia Garcia. You can also get or gift the five habits of hope book. You can listen to it on audio. It’s available wherever books are sold and you can follow my podcast journey with Dr. J.

John Jantsch (20:24.614)

appreciate you stopping by Julia. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Julia (20:28.578)

Thank you so much.

The Human Side of AI Branding

The Human Side of AI Branding written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

On this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Mark Kingsley, renowned brand strategist, consultant, and author of “Brands in the Age of AI.” Mark shares how AI is reshaping the landscape of branding—putting pressure on brands to act ethically, think humanely, and redefine the meaning of differentiation, trust, and emotional connection. Mark and John discuss why algorithm-chasing alone leads to commoditization, how true brand value now lies in human insight, and the new risks and opportunities for companies of every size in an AI-driven world.

About the Guest

Mark Kingsley is a brand strategist, consultant, and author with deep expertise guiding global organizations through digital transformation. His latest book, “Brands in the Age of AI,” is a practical guide for leaders, marketers, and entrepreneurs navigating the new rules of branding, trust, and differentiation in an AI-powered landscape.

Website: malcontent.com
Book: Brands in the Age of AI

Actionable Insights

AI is a force multiplier: It amplifies both good and bad brand behaviors, putting greater pressure on brands to act ethically and humanely.
Don’t chase the algorithm—brands that focus only on efficiency and optimization become replaceable and lose emotional connection.
Humanizing brands means moving beyond calculative thinking to contemplative, meditative thinking; focus on flourishing, not just transactions.
Trust is at risk in the AI era: Brands must be transparent, consistent, and prioritize removing friction for the customer—not just for the company.
The best AI-driven storytelling isn’t just a sequence of events—it creates moments of transformation, transcendence, and genuine recognition (“I see you”).
Integration and database silos are a real challenge for delivering seamless, frictionless experiences; the future belongs to brands that can connect data and remove barriers.
Small businesses can leverage AI to “level up” and deliver greater value, but must avoid eroding value through simple efficiency or automation.
The real opportunity is delivering more human, more insightful, and more emotionally resonant experiences—AI should be a tool for that, not a replacement for it.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

00:47 – Is AI Changing the Rules or Raising the Stakes?
Why AI is a force multiplier for both good and bad brand behavior.
01:50 – Can AI Actually Humanize Brands?
Why contemplative thinking and ethical choices matter more than ever.
04:54 – Trust, Technology, and the Pendulum of Progress
How brands can rebuild trust in an AI-driven world.
06:56 – Don’t Chase the Algorithm
Why marketers focused only on optimization are the first to be replaced.
09:12 – Storytelling, Recognition, and Transformation
Real-world examples of brands using AI to create “aha” moments.
13:42 – The Brand AI Integration Model
How database integration (or the lack thereof) shapes brand experience.
18:23 – The Human Skills That Matter Most Now
Why leadership, education, and redefined goals are critical in the age of AI.
19:35 – Risks and Opportunities for Small Businesses
How small firms can use AI to punch above their weight (and where they must be careful).
21:29 – Delivering More Value, Not Just Efficiency
How to thrive by focusing on insight, innovation, and customer outcome.

Insights

“If all you do is chase the algorithm, you’re replaceable by AI. Real brand value is in the human insight, not just the optimization.”

“AI is a force multiplier—it can help you deliver more human and more meaningful experiences, but only if you choose to use it that way.”

“Trust is built by removing friction for the customer, not just for the company.”

“Storytelling is about transformation and recognition, not just a series of events.”

“Small businesses can use AI to compete with the big players—but value comes from insight, not just automation.”

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.08)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Mark Kingsley. He’s a renowned brand strategist, consultant and author with deep experience in guiding global organizations through digital transformation. His latest book we’re going to talk about today, Brands in the Age of AI. It’s an essential guide for leaders, marketers and entrepreneurs seeking to thrive in a landscape where AI is rapidly changing consumer expectations, brand trust and the

very nature frankly of that key brand element of differentiation. So Mark, welcome to the show.

Mark Kingsley (00:37.992)

Pleasure to be here. Thank you.

John Jantsch (00:40.076)

Let’s just let’s just hit it right off the bat. How is AI changing the fundamental rules of branding, if you will?

Mark Kingsley (00:47.55)

Does it change the rules or does it put a more pressure on people’s behavior? It puts more pressure on what I would, know, ethically I would call like better behavior. Because AI does multiply. It’s a force multiplier for the ability to extract more attention and to extract more profit from brands and transactions to extract more attention and etc.

But I see it also as an opportunity to, in the book I speak about like connecting with the I thou connection, me I and you thou and seeing each other with open eyes, seeing the other person as a person, not as a target, as a member of an audience or a potential transaction. And AI does.

offer these opportunities. It just comes down to like what is the choice that people are going to

John Jantsch (01:50.602)

We’ll say a little more about that because I mean, you’re talking about it as a force to actually humanize some marketing and there certainly are people that are saying just suggesting just the opposite. It’s turning marketing into a more robotic exercise.

Mark Kingsley (01:56.211)

Yes.

Mark Kingsley (02:00.766)

Mm-hmm.

Mark Kingsley (02:05.756)

Yeah, well, it’s very easy. In the beginning of the book, I talk about the way in which I’m approaching it. And I do it differently than most other people that speak about AI. Like if you go to LinkedIn, there were volumes and volumes of gibberish every day about the best prompts and how this company is going to market cap, blah, blah, you know, all that stuff. That’s what I call calculative thinking. And that’s basically figuring out how am I going to get from here to there. It’s logistics, right?

John Jantsch (02:22.498)

Right, right.

Mark Kingsley (02:35.742)

And I’m proposing that we also enter it’s also an opportunity for us to enter into what I call a more contemplative or meditative thinking which is I am I am going to consider the way that AI is going to impact my relationship and our relationship to each other to time to history to Society to knowledge all of that and so that this is it’s more of like an inflection point It’s very easy. We are rewarded

for good calculative thinking. We are rewarded with year-end bonuses. Name any domain, any kind of industry, you’re rewarded for returns. But that only goes so far. mean, aren’t we on this planet? Don’t we offer products and services in such a way to encourage the flourishing of human beings? One would hope.

John Jantsch (03:31.918)

Sorry to chuckle there, but I had forgotten all about that.

Mark Kingsley (03:36.486)

That’s the thing. It’s easy to forget, right? Because we get caught up in our professionalism. We get caught up in our engagement. We get caught up in results. And those are things that we can track. How does one track an emotional… mean, brands in theory, everyone that works in branding talks about brands making an emotional connection to people. So that’s hard to track. That’s hard to rationalize on a spreadsheet at the end of the day. And that’s hard. So it’s…

I know that I am shouting in the wind. I know that, right? But, you know, at least someone is doing that. It’s I’m like the, you know, the classic myth of the little boy in the dyke and trying to keep his finger in the dyke trying to keep the sea at bay.

John Jantsch (04:25.304)

Well, it’s interesting because, you know, I’ve been doing this for 30 some years. And I mean, I’ve seen a lot of new technologies come along and you see this huge, you see this huge swing towards what, what the promise of this technology is. And then inevitably you see the swing back to like, here’s how it failed us. So one of the most important words, I think you talked about emotional connection, but certainly trust is a huge part of that. So what role does AI play in

Mark Kingsley (04:51.133)

You

John Jantsch (04:54.19)

enhancing trust as opposed to eroding it. You know, you hear people saying all the time now, one of the negatives about AI is I don’t know what to trust because am I seeing something that’s real or not? So I think there’s going to be this swing both ways to like not trusting and then how do we get back to humanizing the emotional connection?

Mark Kingsley (05:15.729)

This is humanity’s relationship to technology in general, regardless of whether it’s AI or it be computers. could be the… I was just gonna say that, exactly, right? So we all rush to new technological innovations and advancements, and we see the benefits that it’s going to bring us, but technology is never positive or negative. It’s kind of like a neutral thing. What technology does, and this is a…

John Jantsch (05:20.386)

Yeah. Or automobiles. Yeah.

Mark Kingsley (05:44.766)

this is an idea that comes out of Heidegger, is that it reframes our relationship to things. For example, the technology of taking sawdust, mixing it with glue and coming up with medium density fiberboard, right? That gives us Billy bookcases. And it’s amazing that we can kind of use this material that was once considered to be, know, detritus, we can now use it for an actual building material and make money with this, right? What that does is that

There are forests in Romania that have been decimated just to build Billy bookcases, just to make sawdust for the Billy bookcases. So that’s what I mean about the constant reframing that technology does in our society.

John Jantsch (06:23.502)

Yeah.

So one of the things that I hear a lot of people talking about is sometimes marketers are just responding to what the algorithms give them, right? You have to do X, Y, and Z if you’re going to show up in AI overviews. And so you see a lot of people just chasing the algorithms that really truthfully are making decisions, in some cases, for our customers. So how do you kind of fight that no, let’s be human to no, let’s chase algorithms?

Mark Kingsley (06:56.889)

If that’s all you’re going to do as a marketing person is chase algorithms, you are replaceable. You are replaceable by AI. And so it’s it’s it’s short sightedness to even to even think that way. I mean, in the book I describe and it’s a it’s a constant example that people use if you look at lawyers. Right. And the education and training of a lawyer is you become you go through law school and then you become a junior partner and you sit there all night long going through paper and going through cases, reading cases.

and looking for ways in to a case or some sort of insight. That is you learning how to be a lawyer, right? But we can now offshore that work to AI and have AI go through and do this analysis. But what we’re doing is we are basically robbing the future. We are robbing new generations of lawyers. So how do we now educate a lawyer? it’s even in marketing, there’s

There has to be some sort of constant readjustment, resetting about how does one learn how to be a marketer, how does one act as a marketer, how does one kind of identify good marketing techniques.

John Jantsch (07:57.998)

Thank

John Jantsch (08:07.598)

Yeah. A phrase just popped into my head. know, know, the first kill all the lawyers, which was part of a much larger phrase, but, but I think it’s now first kill all the paralegals. that.

Mark Kingsley (08:16.477)

Yeah.

Mark Kingsley (08:23.325)

No, I would you know, I I you know, I’m much more cynical than you are I say first let’s kill all the mid-level marketing managers

John Jantsch (08:30.606)

Right. So if chasing algorithm, and I’ve totally agree with that. mean, the people that are just looking to like find efficiencies and things like that with AI are essentially almost playing right into the hands of being replaced themselves. Right. So in branding, I think we’ve said this way before AI way before, frankly, anything digital came along storytelling is the one of the key, you know, the key assets. So

Mark Kingsley (08:47.057)

Right, right.

John Jantsch (09:00.472)

Do you have some examples? know you do in the book, plenty of examples, but give us an example of a brand that you think gets storytelling that’s AI driven.

Mark Kingsley (09:12.657)

Well, first off, have to identify what storytelling is. And so I would, first, I think I potentially may take cause with how you’re identifying storytelling. Because a lot of storytelling is basically, at least within the brand world, like the whole idea of the customer journey. A lot of that isn’t necessarily storytelling, but it’s events. It’s a repetition, and it’s a chronicling of events that happen this, then that, then that, then that, then that.

John Jantsch (09:24.494)

Okay.

Mark Kingsley (09:41.487)

I look at storytelling as some sort of, requires some sort of like, aha moment. So I’m like, a moment of transportation, transcendence, transformation. And then, I see the potential here. And so my favorite example, and this all comes down to like, how do I?

create a sense of being seen, of that I-thou relationship, right? So an example that I give when I give talks is I talk about one of my favorite bars in Chelsea called Chiquito. And I used to walk in and the person behind the bar, she would look at me and she’d go, you know, she opened her hands about, you know, like a bottle length and I’d nod. And then as soon as I sat down, there was a bottle of the Barone Reserva ready to go, right? She knew my wine and that’s how I ordered it, right? She knew me.

I knew her, we had a little secret link. We didn’t sit down, I didn’t meet her after work and go, hey, when I walk in, you need to know. It just happens naturally because we saw each other. And so to take that kind of notion of like, you’re seeing, another example that I use in the book is talking about going to JFK in a long-term parking lot. So you can make reservations at JFK, you kind of have to, to do long-term parking.

John Jantsch (10:39.63)

You

Mark Kingsley (10:58.318)

And there are a couple of parking lots there where you type in your license plate. That’s how you do your reservation like any other place. And the first time I showed up at this one parking lot, there was no one there. There was no booth. And I was like, I was ready to get really angry very quickly. I’m a New Yorker, right? I’m ready to get angry. But I pull up just a little bit closer and the gate opens. It’s because there was a tiny little camera that saw me and my license plate and put it together and said, here’s Mark.

And that was that moment of transformation where I’m like, I instantly went from feeling ready to fight to welcome, to like, come on in. You’re here. We get it. In you go. And these kind of innovations are slowly happening in airports. We’re going to get to a point where I don’t need to do bag drop off because AI has been watching my gate.

bio kind of information, biometric information is already out there in the world. I mean, I go to other countries and it scans my face and it recognizes me. My face is already there in that country, even though I haven’t been there since the introduction of AI. So it’s already out. So I’m going to walk into an airport that will recognize me by my gate, by my face, and it’ll recognize my bag. And I’ll do all that stuff. I just put the bag on the thing, off I go, and then it’ll track it for me. I already get.

When I I check my bags, already get text messages from various airlines going, oh, the bags on the plane, the bags off the plane, the bags coming to you. So this is this is all part of that that push to like a sense of subjectivity, I guess, or a sense of like, I don’t need. And part of that is removing all the friction, removing all the bumps along the way where I don’t have to worry about, oh, geez, I’m going to have to stand in this line. Oh, here’s the check in line. Oh, my God, it’s 15 people long. I’m just going to walk from taxi to gate.

John Jantsch (12:28.056)

Yep.

John Jantsch (12:40.416)

Mm-hmm.

Mark Kingsley (12:51.472)

Relatively soon, right? And so that for me is That’s a transformation. That is some sort of transformation in the story

John Jantsch (13:00.878)

Well, I think you used a really key word there because I think where people get tripped up with any kind of automations is when they’re used to make things life easier for the company as opposed to removing the friction for the customer.

Mark Kingsley (13:14.16)

Yeah, exactly. this is part of the frustration, right? Because a lot of the innovations that are spoken of to people to each other in boardrooms is usually on the calculative sense. How are we going to get more churn? We’re going to get more transactions, more exactly. How do I do it with more efficiency, right? Yeah, that kind of thing. So that’s why I say that. that’s why I say that. I feel like I’m shouting in the wind at times.

John Jantsch (13:31.544)

I’ve less people.

John Jantsch (13:42.766)

One of the key elements is a framework or a model you call the brand AI integration model. So do you want to unpack that one for us?

Mark Kingsley (13:53.501)

So it’s there’s there’s an idea and this comes from a friend of mine Ali madad who It has has like a strategy firm that he’s beginning these experiments with like ideas of like what he calls like a like a brand operating system and There is potentially a way to kind of automate the donkey work. It’s the donkey work of strategy, right? Can I can I set up my criteria and my parameters?

John Jantsch (14:10.242)

Yeah.

Mark Kingsley (14:21.636)

and set off a system to do the automatic customer segmentation, to do the automatic logistics, the automatic ordering supply chain, all that stuff can potentially come together if we get to that point where we properly integrate databases. the integration of databases is a problem right now. For example, Starbucks. Starbucks is in the middle of closing locations all around the world right now. They’ve closed like 900, no, they’ve laid off 900 employees

and close like a couple hundred locations in the United States in the last couple of weeks. What’s happening is that I’m seeing more more licensed Starbucks opening up in the Barnes and Noble bookstore or in a hotel, that kind of stuff. So that’s not really Starbucks. They call themselves Starbucks, but they don’t act like Starbucks. So what that means is that I have my app, and I can go order a

John Jantsch (15:07.342)

In the supermarkets.

John Jantsch (15:13.966)

Peace.

Mark Kingsley (15:20.774)

coffee 10 minutes out and show up and then the coffee is waiting for me. I can’t do that anymore because the databases aren’t connected. Right. And so Starbucks has gone for the efficiency and the profit, but not necessarily the customer experience.

John Jantsch (15:36.332)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you see that I hate to pick on airports, but particularly in the airport ones. mean, those are concessionaires and those that employee may have been working at Chick-fil-A, you know, two days ago and now they’re at Starbucks. I mean, so you don’t get the same. You also don’t get the same vibe as well as the database issue.

Mark Kingsley (15:53.116)

Exactly. Yeah. and so like and the idea of like a like a brand, sorry, a brand OS, an operating system with AI. So those licensed Starbucks, if they need like stirrers or like coffee lids or something like that, they can’t call up another Starbucks a couple of miles down the road and go, hey, can you loan us some until like the shipment comes in? They have to go through the home company that owns the licensee that owns a license.

John Jantsch (16:14.252)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:21.218)

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Kingsley (16:22.201)

And then it’ll take like a month for the material to get there. And it also comes down to training. So I can’t go to another Starbucks and train there. I have to train within my own little group. So it’s this kind of like segmentation and silo database issue, which I would, know, fingers crossed in the future, if I was king, know, like AI would help kind of integrate all that stuff. And that’s basically friction, removing friction.

John Jantsch (16:47.17)

Yeah. And I think that’s going to be one of the, you know, the, the promise of this agentic AI. think that’s going to be a real stumbling block for that as well, because a lot of stuff has to talk to other stuff. and we’re a ways away from, from that. And frankly, some of the big players are actually going to resist that because they want to keep their proprietary approach or protocols to themselves.

Mark Kingsley (17:11.429)

Well, there’s also, and then on top of it, there’s like a purely a linguistic and epistemological issue there, right? Because if I am going to use agentic AI, anything that I type in is symbolized. It’s called tokenization, right? So like words and sentences and like syllables will be put into a token, like given a numeric value, and then that numeric value is put into the AI. The AI then predicts.

John Jantsch (17:27.554)

Yeah.

Mark Kingsley (17:39.152)

What’s going to happen next if I get this kind of input and will give me some sort of predictive output? So it’s like a game of, it’s like a very fancy game of computer telephone. When I think of tree, I may be thinking of an elm. And when you hear me say the word tree, you’re thinking of a pine tree. And so this is, in semiotics, it’s called an open semiosis. It’s like, it never really quite matches the original idea.

John Jantsch (17:49.4)

Yeah.

Mark Kingsley (18:06.692)

And this is going to be part of that problem of agentic AI is how are we actually going to know with any degree of confidence that, right? And so this is part of the complexities that are before us.

John Jantsch (18:23.64)

So one of the, I mean, there’s certainly plenty of people you talked about being out there, you know, trying to hold back the dam. I run into a lot of people that are like, no, this is the opportunity to be more human. I’ve certainly heard that. But how do you think leaders, you know, are we talking about different human skills, different human beings that need to be employed in that kind of capacity for us to make that change?

Mark Kingsley (18:45.711)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Different human beings, different ways of educating leadership, different ways of defining leadership, different ways of defining employment, different ways of defining goals, defining profit, all that stuff. This is part of the exciting thing, is like there’s great potential for a transformative change which can enhance human life. That’s my hope and dream.

John Jantsch (19:16.878)

So many of my listeners are small business owners. Right now they’re overwhelmed, I think, is the greatest emotion they’re feeling with everything of AI that’s coming at them. What are some of the biggest risks and opportunities you think that AI presents for particularly small businesses?

Mark Kingsley (19:35.899)

One of the risks, small business, let me make it a little bit bigger first and let’s think through this thing together, shall we? So if I was a branding agency, like one of the larger branding agencies, and I sent an invoice for kind of strategic work, for work that had been done that had been delivered and approved by the client,

John Jantsch (19:48.686)

Okay.

Mark Kingsley (20:05.114)

The client has every right to go, wait a second, why are you charging me this much? Because I knew you used AI and you didn’t have as many people, right? So there’s going to be a certain kind of arbitrage that happens within organizations. Now, if I was a smaller, more mobile agency or client or whatever, that’s where the opportunity is, right? I think it may help you kind of level up to the behavioral capacity of a larger firm, right?

John Jantsch (20:11.169)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (20:31.758)

No questions. Yeah.

Mark Kingsley (20:34.939)

I mean, and quite honestly, the truth of the matter is like, you know, so my experience is in agencies and brand firms and design firms, et cetera. So the truth of the matter is that most branding teams, regardless of the size of the company, are five people at the most, right? You have like a client person, you have strategy, a couple designers, a creative director, and like kind of an executive director of the thing. That’s five people at the most. And that’s basically what I had when I was at Lander working on Citi. And we were the global brand team.

Working with the global brand team at Citi, we were the global brand team at Landor. We were just five people, and we’d bring in people extra here and there. And so AI now gives smaller agencies and smaller players the capacity to level up to that. So that same amount of practice, as long as you also have an equal amount of insight and an equal amount of innovation.

John Jantsch (21:29.122)

Yeah, and what I find in our agency, we are doing is instead of just saying here’s the same deliverable, we did it faster because we could, but we’re still going to charge you the same amount. We find that we’re able to take the same amount of people and the same amount of input and give them a lot more output, a lot more value than we could have for that same fee, quite frankly.

And so I think that’s how people, or at least that’s how I believe people need to be looking at it is, is you can deliver more.

Mark Kingsley (21:55.28)

Yeah.

Mark Kingsley (21:59.715)

Yeah, I see, see, yeah, but John, I see the problem in that though, right? Because what you’re doing is you’re eroding value. You’re eroding what you can potentially charge. And so there, there does need to be a certain kind of larger societal reckoning about value, right? Because the employee productivity has grown over the last 50 years, you know, because of information technology, communications technology, you name it, right? Our productivity is through the roof.

but waitress have remained the same, right? And so there is going to be a problem.

John Jantsch (22:36.238)

Well, I think we’ve solved all the all of the problems we have the time to solve today, Mark. So I appreciate you.

Mark Kingsley (22:43.643)

Oh, well, John, you and me over a drink over like a weekend. We’ll just get to like maybe one percent of the problems being solved.

John Jantsch (22:50.582)

That’s right. Well, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by. Where would you have people invite people to learn more about your work, about the book, obviously connect with you.

Mark Kingsley (22:59.515)

So basic is my website is malcontent.com, M-A-L-C-O-N-T-E-N-T. Yes, I do have that URL. It’s one of the proudest possessions that I have. And basically, I do business under the name malcontent because it really describes my approach and my feelings about established processes and established procedures, knowing that there’s always a better way out there. So therefore.

John Jantsch (23:09.87)

You

John Jantsch (23:24.13)

Yeah, that’s right. There are no best practices, right? There’s only better practices.

Mark Kingsley (23:29.371)

And there’s it’s everything situational everything is totally situational

John Jantsch (23:33.559)

Yeah, that’s Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Mark Kingsley (23:39.014)

Great, thank you.