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Empowering Small Business with AI & Strategy

Empowering Small Business with AI & Strategy written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

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Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Sara Nay, CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and author of “Unchained.” Drawing on over 15 years of experience in every agency role—from intern to CEO—Sara explains why the traditional marketing agency model is broken for both clients and agencies. She introduces the “anti-agency” approach: a practical, strategy-first, AI-enabled model designed to help small businesses own their marketing instead of renting it. The discussion covers timeless principles, the new role of the fractional CMO, how to leverage AI for impact (not just efficiency), and the steps any business can take to reclaim control and clarity.

About the Guest

Sara Nay is the CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and author of “Unchained.” With two decades of hands-on experience, Sara is a leading voice in strategy-first marketing systems for small businesses. She has helped hundreds of entrepreneurs and agencies design sustainable, scalable growth through a blend of foundational principles and forward-thinking technology. Sara is a sought-after speaker and advocate for empowering business owners to take back ownership of their marketing.

Actionable Insights

  • The traditional agency model struggles with client demands, scope creep, profitability, and talent retention—especially as AI transforms execution.
  • The “anti-agency” model empowers small businesses to stop renting their marketing and start owning it, with strategy and leadership at the center.
  • Timeless marketing principles (ideal client, deep messaging, strategy before tactics) are more important than ever in the AI era.
  • Rushing into AI tools without strategy amplifies chaos and inconsistency—start with business and marketing goals, then select and train the right tools.
  • Fractional CMOs offer small businesses affordable, high-level leadership, managing strategy, budget, and metrics while leveraging lean teams and AI systems.
  • Owning your marketing brings control, clarity, and the ability to scale—CEOs should focus on their “zone of genius” and let marketing leaders orchestrate execution.
  • Agencies must shift from execution services to strategic leadership and AI-empowered team enablement to remain relevant.
  • Every business can start reclaiming ownership by auditing team structure, clarifying partnerships, and aligning technology to strategy.
  • AI should be used to elevate human talent, not replace it—future-proof your team and business by identifying high-impact skills and integrating AI support.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

  • 01:06 – Why the Traditional Agency Model is Broken
    Sara shares her experience across agency roles and the pain points that inspired “Unchained.”
  • 03:02 – Defining the Anti-Agency Model
    How AI and strategy are turning the old agency/client relationship upside down.
  • 04:59 – Timeless Marketing Principles in the Age of AI
    Why ideal client profiles and deep messaging still matter most.
  • 07:07 – The Dangers of Jumping Into AI Without Strategy
    Sara explains how “amplified chaos” is the real risk for small businesses.
  • 08:55 – The New Org Chart: Fractional CMOs and AI-Powered Teams
    How small businesses can afford leadership and execution at scale.
  • 11:05 – From Renting to Owning Your Marketing
    The mindset and structural shifts required for true business growth and clarity.
  • 14:26 – How Agencies Must Evolve to Stay Relevant
    Why leadership, strategy, and AI team enablement are the future of agency services.
  • 16:06 – Practical Steps for Taking Ownership This Week
    Sara’s advice for businesses ready to move from chaos to control.
  • 18:08 – Elevating Your Team With AI
    How to future-proof your people and business by blending skills and technology.

Pulled Quotes

“Stop renting your marketing and start owning it. With the right strategy, small businesses can take back control and scale with confidence.”
— Sara Nay

“AI should be used to elevate your team—not replace them. Future-proof your business by blending technology with high-impact human skills.”
— Sara Nay



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John Jantsch (00:00.866)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Sara Nay. Sara is the CEO of Duct Tape Marketing, where she spent over 15 years helping small businesses build strategy-first marketing systems that actually work. Now being my daughter, Sarah has lived the small business reality from every angle as a teenager, as a team member, as a fractional CMO, and now as the CEO. In her new book,

Unchained, she makes the case that traditional agency model is broken, both for the clients and agencies and lays out a practical AI enabled strategy first approach she calls the anti-agency model. We’re going to touch on that. Permission helps small business owners stop renting their marketing and start owning it. Unchained, breaking free from broken marketing models. So Sarah, welcome to the show.

Sara Nay (00:53.858)

Thanks for having me on.

John Jantsch (00:55.778)

So you and I have been talking about marketing models for a long time. Was there a time when you kind of said, you know what, the agency model is broken and I got to create something different?

Sara Nay (01:06.455)

Yeah, I mean, as you mentioned in the introduction, I’ve been part of the agency space for about 15 years. And in that journey, I’ve moved from intern to community manager, account manager, fractional CMO for our clients among other roles. And so I’ve really been in all the different areas of the agency space. And throughout that journey, there’s definitely been times where I’ve noticed things that didn’t quite feel right in the agency space. And even further than that,

there have been several moments over the last 15 years where I’ve been burnt out and on the brink of saying, does this make sense to pursue even more, even further? And so I’ve lived a lot of challenges along the way and there’s no secret in the challenges I’ve seen. think a lot of people experience this in the agency space. And so starting on that side, on the agency side of things, there’s challenges with meeting client demands and managing scope creep and scaling and maintaining profitability and

retaining great talent and those are a lot of the things that I’ve heard from other agency owners struggling with, but I’ve also experienced it myself. Also in my roles, I’ve been on in the sales side of our business for a while now. So I’ve spoken with hundreds of small business owners who have worked with different agencies or outsourced solutions over those years. And I have heard all of their stories of

things along the lines of marketing doesn’t work or I’m paying this agency for X and I have no idea if I’m getting results or if anything’s happening with my marketing efforts. And so there’s been a lot of this going on for years in the agency space. But I think it’s becoming more more heightened now with the evolution of AI.

John Jantsch (02:49.518)

So you actually use the term anti-agency model. Now know you’re not an agency hater. so, so what makes this anti or, and not just a better agency.

Sara Nay (03:02.379)

Yeah. So the whole play with the anti-agency model, as you identified, like obviously we’re not anti-agency. We’re an agency ourselves. We have been for 31 years. We love agencies. And so I do keep, I keep explaining that because I don’t want people to think this book is against agencies, but what it’s with the anti-agency, what it’s saying is the model is broken essentially for some of the points that I had highlighted just a second ago. So it’s anti-agency model specifically.

And so the way we have been doing and functioning for years as agencies were being forced in some ways to evolve because of the evolution of AI. so previously to AI, it made sense for agencies to hold onto things like marketing, execution, content, social, SEO, paid ads, all of the execution elements. But with the evolution of AI, I believe small businesses are able to take some of that stuff in-house.

They still need strategic leadership and direction, but they now have an opportunity to stay a little bit more lean with their in-house marketing team by layering in AI systems below them to help with the heavy lifting of execution. And so that’s the whole idea of stop renting your marketing and taking back ownership of your marketing. You still need strategy. You still need direction. You still need leadership.

But now you can build a marketing department or team that is a bit leaner because they’re overseeing orchestration of marketing, which is done by AI systems.

John Jantsch (04:39.086)

So one of the things you and I talk about a lot, cause I say it all the time is I, you know, I’ve been doing this 30 years and while a lot of new shiny things have come along, the fundamentals of marketing have not really changed or what we’re here to do as marketers has not really changed that much. What timeless principles do you think from, our system? As you know, it’s still worked today.

Sara Nay (04:59.085)

Yeah. And so that’s the second really section of the book we get into the timeless after the intro and all of that, we get into the timeless principles. And so some of the things that I touch on there are things like target market, identifying your clients on a very deep level. I think that’s becoming even more and more important with the evolution of AI, because what I see is a lot of small businesses bringing in something like a chat, GBT or a clod or whatever their tool of choices. And they’ll start just like,

creating content and so it’s all over the place. It’s not consistent. It’s not on on brand. And so in your original book duct tape marketing, you talked a lot about identifying your ideal client on a deep level, understanding them emotionally, what keeps them up at night, what drives them. And so with the evolution of AI, you still need to understand your clients on a very deep level. But then if you’re going to bring in an AI tool, you then need to train the chat, you’d be to your tool of your choice that you bring in.

on that information. So when you’re creating content moving forward, you’re creating content that speaks to your ideal client on a deep level and isn’t just generic. Another timeless foundational principle is core messaging. We talk a lot about that over the years. So identifying your core message or we’ve talked a lot about talking logo as well. And so that’s really identifying what makes you unique, but also what messaging resonates with that ideal client.

That is still incredibly important today, but it’s also important to take that messaging and train your AI tools of choice on that messaging as well. So again, you’re not creating generic content, you’re creating content that speaks to your ideal clients with the messaging you’ve identified is really important. And so those foundations are still the same, but the way we’re using them is evolving a bit because of the technology that’s now available.

John Jantsch (06:48.733)

So, you know, we’ve, we’re all seeing people run into AI and just like, look what it can do, makes life faster, better, cheaper. Um, where do you think the danger of this, that like eyes wide open, you know, jump in and start using the tools? What do you think the danger of that is for many small businesses?

Sara Nay (07:07.987)

It complicates things that causes confusion. causes inconsistency. It causes noise. It amplifies the chaos that’s already there. It causes so many issues for the internal team or the team using the program, but also for the clients and prospects that you’re putting out content to as well. And so it’s causing confusion in both of those areas. And so a lot of what I encourage small businesses to do is take a step back.

John Jantsch (07:12.916)

amplifies the chaos that’s already there, right? Yeah.

Sara Nay (07:33.767)

And if you’ve been following duct tape marketing for any period of time, you’ve heard us say strategy before tactics. But it’s now strategy before tactics and technology is the conversation we’re having with clients. And so if you’re thinking about, okay, we need to be using AI tools instead of just diving into tools first, take a step back and answer some very important questions as to what’s the business actually trying to accomplish? What’s the marketing strategy look like based on that?

What’s the team strategy or what’s our current team structure look like? And then you can say, okay, what tools can help us accomplish our goals? And then once you identify what the tools are, you then need to train the tools on your strategy that you would have created to then get to the point where you’re ready to execute on them efficiently. So don’t dive into tools, take a step back, create the strategy, and then answer the question of what tools are gonna help us get from where we are today to where we’re trying to go.

John Jantsch (08:30.936)

So, you know, the fractional CMO plus concept is a big part of our model. what do you tell that small business owner that’s got kind of a smaller budget and it’s thinking, I really just need somebody to do stuff rather than like, you know, I can’t really afford or I, or maybe I’m not big enough to even think about the idea of having fractional leadership. What do you say to that business as to why they need to maybe change their mindset?

Sara Nay (08:55.403)

Yeah, I mean, think, again, I keep going back to AI, but it’s causing small business owners or small businesses an opportunity that we haven’t had before. so, you previously, let’s think of traditional marketing org chart. You would have a CMO in a company and then you would have a lot of different executors under them, essentially. So you’d have like a paid specialist, an email marketing specialist, a social, you know, all of the different channels and categories. That’s never really been feasible to small businesses because

they wouldn’t even have a budget for a CMO, let alone all the other people that are involved in that story. And so I think the best opportunity that small businesses have is right now in terms of the org chart, because you can bring in a fractional CMO. So you’re not paying a full-time salary. You’re paying a set fee every single month. That fractional CMO is then tasked with creating the overall strategy, managing the budget, owning the metrics.

overseeing all of the marketing department essentially. And then under that fractional CMO, believe instead of, I don’t know if we’re quite there yet, but the direction I believe we’re going is instead of having a specialist in all the different channels, small businesses can have marketing executors that are familiar enough in writing great copy and understanding social media, but they’re really systems oriented and technology first people.

where you can bring in AI systems below them to help them execute at a higher level than they’ve ever been before. And so now you’re getting a marketing org chart with all of these different roles that you previously probably couldn’t even think about affording as a small business.

John Jantsch (10:35.832)

So going back to the theme of renting, mean, the opposite of renting is owning. and so to a large degree, you know, what you’re describing there is kind of that path towards owning your, your marketing, you know, as a business, as opposed to maybe it wasn’t even renting. was abdicating like going here, you do it. I don’t care what you’re doing over there, but how does that change the business owners mindset in terms of.

Sara Nay (10:54.124)

Yeah.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:05.262)

people in terms of structure, in terms of process, if they’re actually, you know, now they’re going to have those people in their organization or they’re going to have those functions in their organization. Who manages that? How do they hire for that? Are they, are they bringing in more overhead that makes sense for their business if they’re going to start thinking that way, or is this the ultimate path to, truly scaling a business?

Sara Nay (11:16.557)

It obviously depends on the business situation, revenue size, long-term growth goals. And so there’s a lot of factors that I would need to consider to answer that specifically. But for me, if you’re a small business and you’re looking to scale up,

when you’re doing a certain level of revenue, you’ve been in business for a few years, let’s say you’ve passed the 1 million revenue mark, I think it’s time to start considering you need marketing leadership of some extent. And so when small businesses scale up to a certain point, if they haven’t looked for marketing leadership, the CEO becomes the CMO and they either have marketing experience or they learn marketing. And now it’s this necessary evil that

they’re having to spend a lot of their time on where they never wanted to become a CMO in the first place. And so if you’re scaling up and you have high growth goals, looking for someone like a fractional CMO, I think makes a lot of sense because the whole idea is as the CEO or founder, you stay in your zone of genius. You stay focused on the why behind you building the business in the first place. then you… In selling, yeah.

John Jantsch (12:34.798)

or in selling, you know, stuff that actually is going to make money for the business rather than you having to figure out how to manage the technology.

Sara Nay (12:46.121)

Exactly. And then you bring in a fractional CMO or a marketing leader of some extent that then is tasked with what you identified earlier in terms of managing team, bringing in partners or hiring full-time team, running the technology, building the systems and processes, running the budget and the metrics. so the fractional CMO is really tasked with leading the marketing department and working alongside you to help you reach the specific business goals that you would have laid out.

John Jantsch (13:15.566)

You know, if somebody, whoever you’re working with is going to bring you strategy first, you know, as the first step, it doesn’t really matter what you call that person, right? What their role is, right? I mean, it’s really more the idea of thinking strategy first, isn’t

Sara Nay (13:21.901)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (13:31.137)

Yeah, absolutely. And so we’ll throw out all different terms. I mean, we talk a lot about fractional CMO, but if that feels like too elevated of a term, know, marketing leader, marketing strategist, marketing advisor, you know, the point is what they’re doing. They’re, leading the marketing initiatives and not just being an order taker.

John Jantsch (13:51.672)

So let’s flip to agencies that are listening, because I know we have agencies listening as well. How do they have to shift their mindset to really stay relevant? mean, I think in some agency, you look at some of these agencies that are providing SEO and content and social media, that’s their package, right, of done for you services. There might be a time in the very near future where that’s just not that relevant.

Sara Nay (14:19.372)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:19.423)

or people aren’t going to be willing to pay what you need to run a profitable business. So how do agencies need to shift their mindset?

Sara Nay (14:26.705)

Yeah, and there’s been a lot of stuff coming out there that I’ve seen on LinkedIn and different articles about how many agencies are going to shut down in the next few years. I think a lot of that stuff’s hard to predict, but I do think if you just keep offering execution, it’s a race to the bottom in a lot of cases because small businesses, even if they’re not doing it that effectively yet, they are bringing in AI solutions to cut costs in certain areas. And I think that marketing execution is one of those.

areas. And so, you know, I think if agencies keep offering execution as their core services, it’s going to be very challenging in the next few years moving forward, because AI is becoming more sophisticated. So you’re basically competing against AI in that scenario versus if agencies shift their offering and they step more into this leadership role, where they’re, you know, focusing on strategy.

they’re elevating team, it can be their own team or it can be internal team, but they’re elevating humans essentially with AI systems below them. Then they’re working alongside AI versus competing against it.

John Jantsch (15:35.64)

So if I’m a small business owner listening and.

Obviously picking up and reading the book is going to be step one. But what are a couple steps towards taking this ownership mentality that somebody could start this week? If you’re stuck in the old kind of way of thinking, here are a couple things you can do this week to start changing your mindset or maybe even changing your marketing.

Sara Nay (16:06.165)

Yeah, of course. There’s two things that come to mind right off the bat. One of the first things, and I talk about this in the book as well, is the marketing strategy pyramid. We talk a lot about it at Duck Tape Marketing, but it’s really taking a step back and answering some business strategic questions first. So really analyzing what are your business goals? What are your objectives? What’s your revenue? Where are you growing towards? What are your mission, vision, values? And so really analyzing some of those things.

And then thinking through what is your marketing strategy to help you move in the right direction. And then thinking through what is your team strategy. So you have to have those two bottom layers of the pyramid first to then think about team. But, know, to the question of how can businesses take back ownership when you’re analyzing your team structure, think through like, these internal roles? Are we relying on outsourced vendors? If we’re relying on outside outsourced vendors or solutions.

Do we have clarity and confidence and control or ownership as to what they are doing or are we kind of left in the dark? I if you’re left in the dark through some of your partnerships, that’s when it’s time to analyze, does it make sense to continue on with this partnership or is there a way where we can get more ownership and control? So that’s where I would start is kind of going back to the basics there and analyzing your current structure, your current relationships, your current team.

and making sure that you have clarity in what everyone is doing.

John Jantsch (17:35.672)

So I’m going to go a little in the weeds here on AI, mainly because it’s on everybody’s mind right now. There are a lot of some of these agencies that we’re talking about are shifting their whole model to being calling themselves AI agencies, where they want to come in and show you how to put in agents and how to automated this and automated that. How do you think small businesses should be looking at?

Sara Nay (17:51.703)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:02.806)

I mean, I don’t think we have to convince them that it’s not going away, but how do you think they should be looking at getting the most out of AI as really the end to end solution or the end to end assistant at this point that it can be rather than just looking at it as, here’s how I can automate stuff and or worse yet, here’s how I can fire people and do more with less.

Sara Nay (18:08.909)

Yeah, a big part of that I think is doing an analysis of who’s currently on your team and you’re not asking the question.

How can we get more work out of them or how can we get them to move faster or be more productive? What you’re answering is how can we elevate them to make more of an impact? And so one of the exercises that we’ve done with our team fairly recently, and this is also in the book as well, is we had everyone on our team analyze what skills are they doing on a regular basis. And then we basically had them identify what are human-led skills that they should continue to focus on, things that light them up, that they love.

And then we also had them identify what skills can be AI assisted and what skills and tasks could be executed by AI. And so we went through that exercise so people could essentially analyze their roles and think about how they could future proof their careers moving forward. And so I think that’s a really great exercise for anyone listening as a business leader or for your whole entire team is you should all be thinking about how can we future proof the business as a whole.

And that’s a lot of what you and I talk about when we talk about shifting our model in a new direction. But you also need to be considering everyone on your team. How can you help them elevate with AI instead of be replaced by it? And then how can you help them continue to grow and focus on the skills that are becoming more important because of the evolution of AI?

John Jantsch (19:54.414)

talking with Sarah Ney, the author of Unchained. Sarah, I appreciate you spending a few moments to talk about Unchained. Is there a place that you’d invite people to go to find out more about the work you do, of course, but then also the new book?

Sara Nay (20:08.269)

Absolutely, so unchainedmodel.com is the book’s website, so love for you to check that out and also connect with me on LinkedIn. Again, my name is Sarah Ney.

John Jantsch (20:18.23)

Awesome, well again, I appreciate you stopping by. Hopefully we’ll see you one of these days soon out there on the

Sara Nay (20:24.589)

Thank you.


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How to Attract Your Ideal Customers with the Right Brand Archetype

How to Attract Your Ideal Customers with the Right Brand Archetype written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Jane McCarthy

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, Sara Nay steps in as host to interview Jane McCarthy, a seasoned brand strategist and author of The Goddess Guide to Branding. Jane specializes in helping female entrepreneurs develop authentic, compelling brand identities through the power of goddess archetypes. Drawing from Carl Jung archetypes, she has created a branding framework that enables businesses to connect emotionally with their audience while maintaining a strong brand positioning.

During their conversation, Jane explained how businesses can use archetypes to craft an engaging brand storytelling strategy, ensuring their messaging resonates deeply with their ideal customers. She highlighted the importance of emotional branding, aligning a business’s core identity with the needs and desires of its audience. By embracing feminine branding strategies, companies can create a unique and relatable business identity that fosters trust and loyalty.

Sara’s discussion with Jane McCarthy provides valuable insights into brand development by blending business branding with powerful storytelling. By identifying the right archetype, businesses can position their brand more effectively, attract their ideal audience, and stand out in the marketplace.

Key Takeaways:

  • Brand archetypes enhance emotional connection – Using Carl Jung archetypes in branding creates a personality-driven approach that resonates with customers on a deeper level.
  • The right branding framework builds long-term credibility – A well-defined brand strategy helps businesses maintain consistency and authenticity, which strengthens customer trust.
  • Feminine branding can differentiate your business – Traditional archetypes often lean toward masculine traits, but embracing goddess archetypes allows brands to cultivate a more diverse and inclusive identity.
  • Personal branding plays a key role in business branding – Entrepreneurs who align their personal and business brand identities create a stronger, more authentic marketing presence.
  • Brand evolution should focus on amplifying strengths – Instead of completely rebranding, businesses should refine what customers already love about their brand to maintain loyalty while staying relevant.

Chapters:

  • [00:09] Introducing Jane McCarthy
  • [00:44] What are Goddess Archetypes?
  • [05:37] Identifying your Brand’s Goddess Archetype
  • [08:56] Using your Archetype to Find the Right Talent
  • [12:05] Brands That Embody Goddess Archetypes
  • [16:34] How to Approach Goddess Archetypes
  • [18:44] Figuring out the Heart of your Brand

More About Jane McCarthy: 

Check out Jane McCarthy’s Website

Connect with Jane McCarthy on LinkedIn

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Want to elevate your marketing game? AdCritter pairs Connected TV ads with precise digital retargeting to drive real results. Discover how their full-funnel strategy can help your business grow smarter. Let them know Duct Tape Marketing sent you, and you’ll get a dollar-for-dollar match on your first campaign! Learn more at adcritter.com.



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Sara Nay (00:01.592)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is Sara Nay and today I’m stepping in as host for John Jantsch. And we’re actually doing a ladies takeover of the show because I have Jane McCarthy as my guest. Really excited to talk to you, Jane. Jane is a brand strategist who has worked with clients such as Sweet Tart, Southern California Edison and Pilot Pen. She is the author of the goddess guide to branding.

Helping female entrepreneurs create an abundant and authentic feminine brand. So welcome to the show, Jane.

Jane McCarthy (00:33.144)

Thank you, Sarah, I’m so happy to be here.

Sara Nay (00:36.792)

Well, let’s dive on in. One of the things that I know that you talk about a lot are the concept of goddess archetypes. And so for our listeners today, can you give me an overview as to what are goddess archetypes and how do they relate to brands and in business in general?

Jane McCarthy (00:52.684)

Yeah, so let’s start with archetype. Okay, so many of us are familiar with archetypes from Hollywood movies. Think about the hero of an action film or the outlaw of a Western. The comic who plays that role of giving a little bit of comic relief in a film. We are familiar with these characters. They play

they’re played by different actors, they wear different costumes, but at their essence, it’s a character we know, and that’s what’s considered an archetype. And this concept was developed by Carl Jung, who is one of the famous psychologists, psychoanalysts of the 20th century. And he developed a set of 12 archetypes that can be utilized as like base characters in the human experience. And if you think about,

Star Wars, that was a film that was really based on the knowledge of archetypes from Carl Jung. And in marketing, branding folks started to realize that we can use these characters to create a brand that feels like it has a personality people can actually connect with, a sense of humanity.

And so I, in my career as a brand strategist, and I’ve worked in advertising for over 15 years, have loved using archetypes. And I found that when I get to that central character with a business, we immediately understand the voice. We have a sense of the feel, even the colors and the symbols start to become clear. And so I’ve utilized Carl Jung’s archetypes throughout.

My my journey as as a brand strategist. However, one thing that I noticed is that a lot of those archetypes Tended to toward the masculine. So you have the hero you have the everyman is what it’s called in that system Which is like the guy next door and the explorer and there’s that that’s great but then the more feminine ones were

Jane McCarthy (03:08.556)

the lover and the caregiver. And I thought, wait a second, there are so many variations on the archetypal character from the feminine lens. And that led me to the work of Jean-Chenota Bolin, who is a Jungian analyst. And in the 1980s, she wrote this seminal book called, Goddesses and Every Woman. And she mapped the psyche of women along archetypal lines, utilizing the Greco-Roman goddess system.

Sara Nay (03:11.116)

Hehehe

Jane McCarthy (03:38.624)

and the goddesses. And I thought, this is an amazing source point to bring to branding and to say, let’s look at which goddess energy, if you want a more feminine energy brand, what goddess energy are you? And that’s how I got to the goddess archetypes for branding, which is like Athena, the free, the huntress, or Demeter, the love, the mother, or Maiden Persephone, the goddess of youth and magic and fantasy. And so,

It’s just been really fun to outline these. have eight goddess archetypes that you can utilize to inspire your brand based on this Jungian work.

Sara Nay (04:17.388)

Yeah, that’s great. And so you touch on a few of them, but can you quickly go over what are the eight different architects that you have identified?

Jane McCarthy (04:24.672)

Yeah, so Athena is the goddess of wisdom. She’s very much about education, working within the system to create credibility and legitimacy. She works toward justice. Another example is Hestia the sacred. She was the goddess of the hearth and she’s very much about like light and purity. So I associate her with healing.

And with products that are about wellness and about sacred space and quiet and almost, she’s almost the Zen kind of energy. And then we have Hera. She got a bad rap as being Zeus’s jealous, venomous wife. I think I see her as the regal energy and she’s the goddage of tradition and partnership. She is the queen energy. And…

you know, I rewrote her story a little bit for this book. So those are some examples of the goddesses and how much fun it is to work with mythic archetypes and then think about how that translates into brands today in contemporary life.

Sara Nay (05:40.526)

That’s great. So if someone is listening today and they’re working on their branding and they’re looking for clarity and direction, how would they go about identifying what goddess they might align with as a company?

Jane McCarthy (05:53.164)

Yeah, so if you look at this set of eight archetypes, you’re gonna see that there are dominant gifts that each goddess has. So for example, I mentioned Diana the Free, the goddess of the hunt. So she inspires adventuring, she inspires confidence, she inspires going out beyond the known. And so if you’re a brand that’s about

exploring new territories, then you can look to Diana to inspire you. So it’s a lot about what is the energy that you want to infuse your bandwidth and also the gift that you have. And so then another gift is Venus, the goddess of beauty and pleasure. And so if you’re bringing the energy of like pure joy, recreation,

Playfulness, then you can be a Venus archetype. So it’s thinking about the, you can think about the gifts that you want to bring to your customers through the brand experience. And that will bring you to your archetype, among others. I have a bunch of different exercises, but that’s one.

Sara Nay (07:09.228)

That’s one. It’s interesting to hear you talk through that, especially because I took the assessment that you have available on your website that I found and it identified myself as Diana the free and I’ve been at duct tape marketing for

about 14 years now and people have always looked at us as a marketing firm to be ahead, one step ahead of all the changes and evolution that’s happening in marketing. And so when I got that specific architect type, that aligned very nicely with what I’ve been in the position to do over the last 14 years.

Jane McCarthy (07:40.972)

love that. And I have to admit that I saw your quiz results and I saw that some folks at Duck Tape, a lot of you guys got Diana and I thought, okay, this is a team that’s aligned. And so yes, this is the goddess that is the innovative goddess and is one step ahead of the curve. And by the way, a lot of female founders have Diana as their core archetype. So you’re hitting on something too, which is a brand has

Sara Nay (07:45.004)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (07:53.024)

Yes.

Jane McCarthy (08:10.528)

an archetype, but then your person can have one. And of course, that’s what I took them from. I took them from a young analyst who was talking about people. And so we tend to all have one core archetype that defines our personality. I, for example, am a maiden Persephone. And so I’m all about imagination and feeling into possibility and

fantasy and myth, which actually makes sense for why I ended up doing what I’ve done here. But this can be very informative as we think about our own mission and our own purpose. And then if we are at the heart of our business and we’re the face of our business, like you are the host of this podcast, then who you are is going to inform the energy of the brand, the energy of the business that you’re driving. So who you are and your

Sara Nay (08:47.971)

Yeah.

Jane McCarthy (09:05.536)

your archetype is potentially linked, not always and doesn’t have to be, but potentially very linked to the archetype of your brand.

Sara Nay (09:13.9)

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And that’s actually a reason that I was interested in having my team take the assessment as well after I did, because, you know, I think we’ve established duct tape marketing as a brand over the years, but, one of the things that we’re always hiring for when we’re hiring new people are things, people that are up for change and up for a challenge and that want to be seen as leaders. So it wasn’t a surprise that we had.

a bunch of Diana’s on our team because of kind of what we’ve built as a brand and who we’ve hired for. And so I’m just curious in your experience, like this is all really important conversation for building the brand and putting yourself out there and resonating with clients. But in your experience, does it help with, you know, hiring and attracting the right type of candidates to join your team as well?

Jane McCarthy (09:56.226)

Well, I think this is a really intriguing idea. And I don’t have tremendous experience with team building based on archetypes, so I won’t make a objective statement. But I will tell you that I’m really interested in personality types in this whole world, and I have been for some time. And I was up at Esalen in Big Sur taking a workshop on Enneagram types.

Sara Nay (09:59.651)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (10:09.176)

Yeah.

Jane McCarthy (10:22.59)

And the Enneagram, I also mapped the Enneagram to the goddess archetypes and I utilized that system as well. And I remember talking with a guy who is a very successful CEO of a essential oils company. And he told me that when he was hiring, he did an Enneagram personality test on every applicant and he only hired number two, which is called the helper in the Enneagram system.

Sara Nay (10:50.275)

Mm-hmm.

Jane McCarthy (10:51.662)

for people who were gonna be working on the floor in stores. And he was just looking for that natural helping personality to be frontline, because we all know that if you have a brand or a business where you’re interacting with people in real life on the human level, that service experience is essential and you can have the right colors, you can have the right symbols, you can have the right products, but if everything falls down at the service level, that’s a disappointment. So I think…

Sara Nay (10:59.288)

Yeah.

Jane McCarthy (11:21.406)

I saw I saw I’ve had that anecdotal story of somebody who applied personality types to position in company effective.

Sara Nay (11:33.046)

Yeah, we’ve done a number of assessments over the years. So that’s why I was curious in relation to yours. well let’s dive into some, I love hearing about examples like the one you shared there. so, but can you identify any brands that you would say embody one specific type of architect and why and how they identify that.

Jane McCarthy (11:51.822)

Okay, yes, so since we’re talking about Diana the Free, we’ll just continue on that path. I think she’s a goddess, she’s the huntress, she’s running through the wilderness, she has no interest in cocktail parties on Olympus. And if you think about Wonder Woman and the Wonder Woman film from 2017 that was so great, her name is Diana. So this is Diana or the Athena archetype.

Sara Nay (11:55.906)

Yeah.

Jane McCarthy (12:19.694)

I interviewed for the book, The Goddess Guide to Branding, a CEO named Caitlin Bram. And she has started a hard cider company called Yonder, which is based in the Pacific Northwest. And they have a taproom now in Seattle. And then she has distribution throughout the region. And I think eventually she wants to go national. But her brand is called Yonder. And it’s all about the wild and wandering spirit.

of a yonder brand. And if you think about Diana as being this goddess of the wilderness, she has this wild and wandering spirit that’s about, that has to do with yonder. And on her can is a wolf howling at the moon. And she said, I can’t tell you how many people ask me for more merch that has this wolf. They just love this wolf. And so you could think apples, fall festival.

Sara Nay (12:51.331)

Mm-mm.

Sara Nay (13:09.688)

Mm-hmm.

Jane McCarthy (13:16.952)

that it’s not necessarily where you would go with a cider brand, but she went to a wild spirit, a wolf spirit, or in my case, in my book, a Diana spirit, in order to get at this adventuring spirit, first of all, so that people would think about trying something different, because most people are not familiar with hard cider, but also to deal with any issues around, think this cider is gonna be sweet.

Sara Nay (13:29.026)

Yeah.

Jane McCarthy (13:44.642)

Her products aren’t sweet. She focuses on making hard cider that tastes more like a cocktail. And so through her brand story, she combats any naysayers around, this is going to be sickly sweet. I don’t want to try it. So you can see how the wildness energy appeals to people on a visceral level. But then it also helps with tell the product story in a way that will be appealing. And that’s totally Diana. It’s about adventuring forward.

Sara Nay (13:50.701)

Yes.

Sara Nay (14:12.992)

Yeah, great. Can you give me another example? really love hearing, you know, use cases like you just did there. So can you talk through just one more example of a different brand? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jane McCarthy (14:18.154)

Yeah, yeah, let me talk another one. So I love talking about the women in the book because they’re so awesome and they have, you know, fairly new companies. And so another brand in the book is Alice Mushrooms and Alice Mushrooms makes functional mushroom chocolates. And so people are familiar with functional mushrooms. Some of some people take it in their tea. They put it in smoothies and

These ladies put, these founders put their, Lindsey Goodstein and Charlotte Wasserstein to be specific, put these chocolates, the functional mushrooms in chocolate and then in a beautiful tin that is meant to have, you’re meant to have one square a day. So the mechanism of giving you the functional thing is a delightful treat.

And that was the innovation is they were, sorry, it was Charlotte Cruz. We may have to, maybe I could just retake this. Is this okay? I don’t want to get their names wrong. I’m so sorry. Okay. Okay. So Alice Mushrooms is a functional mushroom chocolate brand and they deliver the goodness of functional mushrooms in a chocolate square.

Sara Nay (15:24.332)

Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Yep, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. It’s okay.

Jane McCarthy (15:43.22)

And so you can take your daily dose of functional mushrooms through chocolate. And so then what they did with the brand, this is Charlotte Cruz and Lindsey Goodstein, these are the founders. They decided to use what I call a Maiden Persephone archetype. And so they took a functional mushroom chocolate and they made it delightful. They made it the energy of magical, fantastical, Alice in Wonderland world.

And if you go onto their website, when you use your cursor, little stardust follows your cursor. So the whole thing is delightful. And interestingly, in that category, a lot of the functional mushroom products are doing 70s psychedelia. So they really do like, and I love the Grateful Dead, but it’s kind of like tie-dye Grateful Dead energy. And so they completely did something different and they went to

Maiden Persephone energy, the goddess of delights and youth and sweetness. And they created a functional mushroom product that’s very feminine, very elevated. And so they found an archetype really inspired by Alice. And I would think of this as Maiden Persephone that differentiates them in market and appeals to people in a wholly different way compared to having a functional mushroom tea.

Sara Nay (17:10.488)

I love it. Thanks for sharing both of those examples. I’m gonna have to go check out their website and see the fairy dust. Now you intrigued me. My next question to you is let’s say someone’s listening today and they just overall like feel like their branding is tired. needs a do over, it needs a relook. How would you encourage them to approach this whole topic and just brand strategy in general?

Jane McCarthy (17:32.994)

Yeah, so I think this is a really intriguing thing to take on because what I want to caution is you never want to walk away too quickly from something that you’re known for. It takes time to establish credibility, legitimacy, and connection with customers. That takes a lot of time. So if you’ve been in market,

First, you want to look at what people love about you and really savor that and make sure that you build on that in a fresh way rather than throwing everything out. I’m always cautioning against a full reboot and I think an evolution and the word evolution is nice. And so then thinking about what people love about you and then what is the credible impact you can have on their life.

starting from there, I would then say, look to the archetype who delivers that and get really rooted in the meaning that you bring, get really clear about it, and then come up with all kinds of fun ways to do things new and different. That’s in the creative expression, right? That’s in the tactical imagination. But strategy-wise, don’t be too quick to walk away from what you’ve developed. Figure out what’s best.

about what you do, what people love about you, and then amplify that. And if you get the book, you can figure out which archetype you are. And I have a system for thinking about how to evolve. But that’s my big suggestion is don’t be too quick to walk away from what people love. Instead, come up with fresh ways to deliver on that.

Sara Nay (19:22.754)

That’s great. And one last question I was going to go to today. So I’m glad that you mentioned your book there. What can people expect if they do grab a copy of your book? What are they going to learn? Obviously learning what archetype makes the most sense for them, but what else can they get out of that book?

Jane McCarthy (19:37.472)

Yes, so figuring out your archetype is the first step. And in a lot of ways, it can unlock other keys to what I call your brand blueprint. But in the book, I walk you through this full set of exercises to get you to a complete brand blueprint. so for me, that’s not just the archetype, but we also share how you figure out the heart of your brand. So what is that core motivation, that driving energy,

Many of us who are into marketing are familiar with Simon Sinek’s idea of why, like why you’re doing this and what is that raw passion behind your business? So we get clear on that. And then the, what I call the gift. So what is the central emotion that you want your brand to help amplify in people? And so what is the takeaway feeling that they have?

after they’ve had an experience with your brand. So we wanna get clear on, once you know the feeling you wanna give people, you can come up with a million different ways of delivering on that feeling. But we wanna figure out what is that positive impact you wanna make at an emotional level. And then the style piece, which I think of both the iconic elements of your brand, so your colors, your symbols, the words, the voice, those are things that are true threat over time. And then we have a couple of…

exercises to start to think about how you then live that brand day by day, that brand identity day by day in terms of the dynamic actions. So what’s happening this month in the social media calendar, et cetera. So you leave with a complete brand blueprint that I think boils down the essentials of what makes a brand identity.

Sara Nay (21:26.582)

Yeah, that’s great. And a lot of those components are elements that John and I have been talking about the importance of marketing right now with everything that’s evolving. Like it’s becoming more and more important to connect with your clients on an emotional level and to tell the story of why and to represent the brand in a positive light. Like those things are gaining importance in marketing. So I’m glad that you touch on all of those in the book. If anyone wants to connect with you online, where can they find you Jane?

Jane McCarthy (21:53.464)

So I have a website, goddessoffice.com, and then I’m also on Substack, goddessoffice.substack.com, and I would love for you to reach out.

Sara Nay (22:04.438)

Awesome. Thanks so much for being on the show, Jane. really loved learning from you and speaking with you and thank you everyone for listening to the duct tape marketing podcast. We’ll see you next time.


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Why You Should Read Business Books That Are Not About Business

Why You Should Read Business Books That Are Not About Business written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

In this episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast, I had the pleasure of being INTERVIEWED by Sara Nay. Sara Nay is the COO of Duct Tape Marketing. She oversees day-to-day operations to support the growth of Duct Tape Marketing and the Duct Tape Marketing Consultant Network.
She focuses on strategic planning, goal setting, and directing the company’s operations in support of its goals. And on a personal note, she’s also my daughter—which makes me “Pop Pop” to her kids!

In this episode, we change it up a bit as I become the interviewee. We explore my journey into entrepreneurship, why I started my own business, why I didn’t work for someone else (the answer will surprise you), my passion for small businesses, and the evolution of marketing over the years.

I reveal lessons from my polar opposite parents and my former fears about running a business.

We also dive into my favorite topic: the impact of AI on small businesses, the opportunities and challenges they face, and the importance of curiosity and innovation in business.

I wrapped up with a glimpse into my future aspirations—what might life look like after Duct Tape? And I answered the timeless question: What’s my all-time favorite business book?

Key Takeaways:

  • I started my entrepreneurial journey due to a lack of confidence in traditional employment.
  • Working with small businesses is both terrifying and gratifying.
  • Curiosity drives me to explore new marketing trends and technologies.
  • AI is not just a tool but a foundational element in marketing.
  • Small businesses can leverage AI for efficiency and personalization.
  • The buying intent of consumers remains strong despite market changes.
  • Experience helps entrepreneurs navigate ups and downs in business.
  • Marketing and innovation are the two pillars of a successful business.
  • Reading outside of business literature can inspire innovative ideas.
  • I envision a future where I write a work of fiction.

Chapters:

  • [00:00] Introduction to a Unique Podcast Experience
  • [02:01] The Journey into Entrepreneurship
  • [04:03] Passion for Small Businesses
  • [05:49] Curiosity and the Evolution of Marketing
  • [08:03] AI’s Impact on Small Businesses
  • [11:08] Opportunities and Challenges for Small Businesses
  • [13:52] Riding the Waves of Business
  • [16:21] Business Advice and Insights
  • [19:46] Future Aspirations and Legacy

Let us know if you’d like to see us make more shows like this!

 

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by:

Oracle

Nobody does data better than Oracle. Train your AI models at twice the speed and less than half of the cost of other clouds. If you want to do more and spend less, take a free test drive at Oracle.



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Testimonial (00:00): I was like, I found it. I found it. This is what I’ve been looking for. I can honestly say it has genuinely changed the way I run my business. It’s changed the results that I’m seeing. It’s changed my engagement with clients. It’s changed my engagement with the team. I couldn’t be happier. Honestly. It’s the best investment I ever made.

John Jantsch (00:16): What you just heard was a testimonial from a recent graduate of the Duct Tape Marketing certification intensive program for fractional CMOs marketing agencies and consultants just like them. You could choose our system to move from vendor to trusted advisor, attract only ideal clients, and confidently present your strategies to build monthly recurring revenue. Visit DTM world slash scale to book your free advisory call and learn more. It’s time to transform your approach. Book your call today, DTM world slash scale.

(01:00): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsc, and doing something really crazy today. A couple things actually that we’re going to do a little different today. I’m going to be the guest and I’m actually going to be interviewed on my own show by none other than Sara Nay. Some of you have met her. She’s the head of operations at Duct Tape Marketing, but she’s also one of my daughters who has worked with me for 13 years.

(01:28): So we thought, let’s see what kind of questions she could come up with and hopefully you’ll find this entertaining. Now, another thing that we are experimenting with today, so hopefully cross our fingers. This works out there in LinkedIn land. We are actually streaming this live. This is the first podcast that I’ve streamed live, so we’ll see how that works out as well. Love to get any feedback in the comments if you would like to and ask questions in LinkedIn if you are so inclined. And we’ll just see how this goes. But for now, I’m going to turn this over to Sara. Are you going to introduce me or how’s this going to work?

Sara Nay (02:05): I think people know who you are at this point, but I was actually curious as you were talking through that. How many interviews do you think you’ve conducted over the years on this podcast where people have listened to you be the host?

John Jantsch (02:16): Yeah. Oh, be the host. So I started this show in 2005 and certainly have done a minimum of a hundred shows a year, some years actually more than that. So I dunno what that adds up to. But yeah, I think we’re over 2000.

Sara Nay (02:30): So you’ve possibly listened to John interview guests 2000 times or so at this point. So this will hopefully be a fun perspective to hear him being interviewed. So my first question to you, I want to go way back to when you started Duct Tape Marketing as an entrepreneur. And I want to know more about the reason of why you went into entrepreneurship versus getting a full-time job.

John Jantsch (02:52): And I tell this story in my last book, I haven’t been telling it for years, but now that I’m getting old, all the secrets come out. But I often felt like when I got out of school, I didn’t feel prepared to do necessarily anything, any skill. I didn’t have honors in degrees in college that would’ve made me stand out to employers. And so I really think of, a lot of it had to do with a lack of confidence almost that I could get a job I saw that my friends were getting. And so I really thought as silly as this sounds, because a lot of people actually think, no, I’ve got enough years of experience to go out there on my own now. And I actually thought, no, I better go out there on my own. I know I can hustle work and maybe that’ll turn into something.

Sara Nay (03:38): That’s great. And you chose the small business space. I know you didn’t originally start there, but what caused you to make that shift into the small business space?

John Jantsch (03:46): Yeah, like I said, I hustled work, which meant anybody that would talk to me, I’d say I could do that. How hard could it be? Yeah, sure, I could do that. So I got big projects, little projects, whatever came my way. But I did land some small business clients that needed marketing help and I knew I could figure out how to help them, and I just really enjoyed working with them. I often say there’s something equal parts terrifying and gratifying about working with that person where they’re actually writing the check. I mean, they’re making a decision to pay you or maybe some other expense. It’s not the big company that accounts payables just paying the bills and moving on the next day. So I really love that. And plus you got to see the results of your work. I mean, you actually could see that, hey, this is making a difference. And so I think that’s why I really chose to serve that market. And quite frankly, it was a very fragmented market, mean nobody was really serving them in the marketing space. So I saw a lot of opportunity there as well.

Sara Nay (04:45): And that leads to one of the next questions I was going to ask is what keeps you going after all of this time? So obviously I’ve seen a lot of passion over the years towards the small business audience. Would you say that’s been one of the things that’s contributed to you being able to continue this on for 30 or so years at this point?

John Jantsch (05:01): I think there’s a couple things. There’s no question I feel like I’m serving me. I mean, I am a small business, so I feel like I’m one of the brethren, and so that I think is really gratifying. I think another thing too is I really always often talk about curiosity being my superpower. I just love the new stuff. And so to keep doing this, I mean, you think about all the things that have happened in the last 30 years in marketing in technology, and I think if you didn’t love it and weren’t really curious about what’s new and how does this work and how can I apply this, you’d kind of get run over. And so I really think that’s added to my love of staying in this and really helping other people figure it out. And I think people look to our brand for that guidance. We’re not excited about the next new thing because it’s the next new thing, but we’re excited about it because it can help us do what we’re fundamentally here to do as marketers.

Sara Nay (06:01): And that curiosity piece, obviously there’s been a lot of evolution in the last couple years on the topic of ai, and we’ve as a company, been diving into AI quite a bit in terms of increasing our productivity and what we’re doing for our clients. And so just curious, well, I didn’t mean to use the word curious there, but how has this curiosity of yours allowed you to dive into the whole topic of AI on a deeper level?

John Jantsch (06:22): Well, it’s just another thing. I mean, if you think about it, I mean, since I’ve been doing this, I mean when I started this, we didn’t have the internet. We didn’t have websites. So it’s like, oh, the website’s another thing we got to figure out. And then, I don’t know, email, social media. I mean, just over the years some new thing is going to come. I think that AI in a lot of ways is going to be different in that it’s not a platform. It’s not even a tool really. I think it’s going to be a plumbing, it’s going to really be baked into pretty much everything we do. In fact, it’s been baked into many things that we do without our knowledge. It’s just when a tool called chat GPT came along and it was very easy for somebody who didn’t know anything about it, could actually now experience the results of AI that might actually benefit them.

(07:12): So I think that’s why at the last year and a half, you’ve seen so much buzz about it. But I just think that it’s a perfect example of curiosity. I mean, you can make AI do just about anything it seems like. And so now it really is up to your imagination. So to me, it’s like the perfect tool to really explore and find ways that maybe nobody’s even talking about it. Or a lot of times what happens is a new technology will come along and people will discount it because they’ll see the ways people are talking about it. There’s no shortage of get rich quick people that are back out there on the AI train trying to say, oh, take this course and you can make $5,000 a minute in your sleep. And so I think that turns a lot of people off. But what really excites me is when you can go, but I can do this little thing that’s going to make me more efficient, more profitable, is going to take away work that I don’t like doing anyway. I mean when you start looking at all the possibilities, it really is your only limitation, I think is your imagination and your curiosity.

Sara Nay (08:20): And talking back to the small business space as well, which is a lot of who we serve, how do you think AI is impacting that group specifically?

John Jantsch (08:29): Well, I think that, let’s talk about marketing. I mean, that’s one aspect, obviously where it’s pretty much impacting anybody because there are things that AI tools can do much more efficiently, and I would say in some cases more effectively than even humans. It’s very good at doing research, it’s very good at analyzing, let’s say your Google Analytics data. A lot of people look at that and go, oh, good, we had more hits or whatever. And to be able to say, no, tell me what we need to do differently. Tell me what we could do better. Tell me what our best opportunities are. And to have something that is basically a super computer with just very common language requests and prompts can now crush that data and really give you some insights back that are going to help you prioritize or help you certainly work better.

(09:17): We’re going to see personalization going to all new levels to where customer segments will be inside a database and they’ll be able to have AI look at who that person is and what their needs are and where they are in the buyer journey and what segment they’re in. And all of a sudden say, similar to say how Amazon says, oh, you read these three books, you’ll probably like these three books. Well, that’s going to start happening at a greater level for pretty much everybody. And I think that’s one of the things that these advances in technology do is they really democratize some of the things that the Amazons of the world have made an expectation. But at what cost, right? I don’t have tens of thousands of programmers that can make all this stuff work for me. Well, all of a sudden now, even the smallest business has that kind of computing power really in their hands.

(10:11): So I think that every element hiring, it’s certainly impacting for folks. I mean, AI can take 2000 resumes and really analyze them for exactly what you’re looking for. There’s always going to be a human element, but there was a great deal of that kind of repetitive work that doesn’t necessarily require a human element and frankly is work that is kind of mind numbing. There’s not a whole lot of humans that want to do it. And so I think you take things like that and all of sudden, now I know you and I have talked about this, all of a sudden now you’ve got people who were doers who are now really more managers of the doing. And I think that’s actually very empowering. A lot of people talk about, oh, it’s going to replace people. I think it’s actually has the opportunity to not only make people more successful and more efficient in their work, but I think empower them to actually do better and bigger things.

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Sara Nay (12:11): Yeah, absolutely. And on this note too, what do you think are the opportunities for small business right now? And it doesn’t necessarily just have to be limited to ai. It can be anything. And also I’d love to hear what do you think are some common challenges that you see in the small business space as well?

John Jantsch (12:26): Well, I think the opportunity and the challenge are probably the same thing. I’ve been talking about how I think the last 10 years, some marketers have gotten pretty lazy because it was actually easy if you just followed Google’s rules, which they laid out, you could get search traffic. I’m not saying it was like magic fairy dust, but I mean, you did the things that they said you should do. You could get search traffic and you could get leads. The social networks were more than willing to sell all the data on their users. And so you could really target very specifically who might want your products and services. And so consequently, some businesses were able to grow pretty easily. Now of course, what’s happening is you look at the search results, you do any kind of search on Google, and they want you to accept the generative AI answer that they’re going to give you rather than clicking off to the website.

(13:16): That might also, frankly, they might’ve actually extracted that answer from. And so search is going to get much harder across the board. Industries are seeing 25 and 30% of their organic traffic just disappear overnight because people are getting the answers that they want without reading the blog posts that might also have a CTA on your website. And of course, third party data is going away. You can’t sell that data. And so consequently, all the ad platforms are actually increasing their pricing extremely. So that’s going to be the real challenge. But I think the real opportunity is the buying is not going away. The buying intent is not going away. People still need those products and services. And so businesses that I think can figure out how to actually make a real connection with prospects and with customers and really focus on brand strategy as well as campaign or marketing strategy, I think are going to be, I think the ones that really stand out today. So there’s a real opportunity, but it really does change the mindset to being less about demand creation and really more about organizing behavior and focusing very much on strategy.

Sara Nay (14:29): Yeah, absolutely. And building trust and guiding the customer journey and getting referrals, which I’m sure people, if they’ve heard you speak, I’ve heard you on those topics before. I want to take it back to you a little bit at this point. So as we said, you’ve been in business for quite some time. I’ve learned this from you and seen it. There’s a lot of ups and downs in business. And so I’ve struggled with that over the years is to say things are going to be okay, we’re going to get back on track. And so just from your perspective, what has helped you ride all of those waves over the years?

John Jantsch (14:57): Well, I think there’s no question that experience helps you. I mean, when you go through a couple of those ups and downs, you’re like, oh, okay, actually there was an opportunity in that we were, woe is me. But then you’re like, oh, wait a minute. There’s actually an opportunity or we can learn something from that. So you do that enough times, and I’m not saying it doesn’t take some resilience and some grit, and I certainly had times when I was very worrisome about putting you guys through college, all the things that every business owner goes through. But there’s no question that seeing it a few times and realizing, hey, not only is everything going to be okay, but we just actually, we have to start thinking about it differently. We have to start looking for where the opportunity is because it’s always there. And I think that helps kind of say, okay, yeah, this was a down month, but hey, every December is a down month or something along those lines.

(15:52): The experience really comes from that. There’s also an element of mindset that’s a piece of it as well. And I really often, my parents were very different people. My dad was very worried all the time. We had 10 kids, I don’t blame him, but he was worried quite often about something was going to go wrong, and my mom was the complete opposite. She was like, oh, nope, something different. This didn’t happen because it wasn’t supposed to. And I think that sort of optimistic mindset is certainly can be a real tool for entrepreneurs because you do have to really look for, we get very focused on what we want to happen or what we think should happen. And when it doesn’t, you can really get knocked off track. But if your mindset is okay, that wasn’t supposed to happen that way, where’s the opportunity or what is supposed to happen? I think that mindset, while it can be hard sometimes, really can take you a long way.

Sara Nay (16:46): Yeah, I like a lot of what you said there, but I agree with the learning aspect specifically. That’s something that I’ve really tried to shift my focus on is if we don’t reach a specific goal, it’s okay, what can we learn from this versus stressing out about it to do better next time around? So that’s great. I have a couple quick fire questions. Maybe these will be quick, maybe not, depends on what you have to say on ’em. But to wrap us up today, the first one I want to hear is what is the best business advice you have ever received?

John Jantsch (17:13): Dang, I’ve been asked that question so many times on the podcast that I’ve been on, and I don’t know that I have a great answer, but I always go back to early on in my journey, I read a book that was actually written in the fifties. Most people of my age are familiar with Peter Drucker, and the book was called The Practice of Management. And that book, I just remember, I’m not even sure really why I read it to be truthful. I wasn’t trying to understand management of a big corporation, which is what he wrote about, but he had a line in there that to this day, and you’ll see it quoted all the time because a lot of reference it, especially marketing people, but the quote in there was, the only two things in a business that matter are marketing and innovation. Everything else is a cost. And again, you’ll see that people quoting that all the time. But I remember reading that in the nineties perhaps when I was still consuming or when I started consuming a lot of business books. And I just remember thinking, okay, that idea of marketing and innovation, that marketing needs to be a system, that marketing needs to be a high priority, that marketing is everything really infused a lot of my thinking through the years,

Sara Nay (18:25): And this relates to that. It might be the same answer, but what’s the best business book you’ve ever read? Is it that one or is it a different one?

John Jantsch (18:33): So it’s actually sitting right here.

Sara Nay (18:36): There you go. He’s coming there.

John Jantsch (18:38): This is not a business book. And I tell people this all the time, that one of, and this may be just my curiosity bug, but one of the ways that I’ve gotten great business books or business ideas over the years is to read books that are not related to business. And this one is by Christopher Alexander. It’s kind of a classic, I don’t know if my camera’s going to pick it up, but it’s called The Timeless Way of Building. He’s an architect and he was talking about building communities, and there’s so many things that can be gleaned from things like math and science and architecture that apply to the industry that you’re in, but it’s just a different way of looking at it. A lot of times you read out business books, you read marketing books. You and I have laughed about this before. All those books on operation systems basically just are saying the same thing. They’re just coming up with different terminology for it. And I think that’s true of consistently reading business books. So my advice to people all the time is get out and read books that are completely unrelated, not just for your own knowledge, but to read them with a filter of how could I apply this to my business? Or are there ideas or terms in here that would apply to my business? A lot of the things that I think have become cornerstones of Duct Tape Marketing really came from other industries.

Sara Nay (19:59): I think that’s just showing your natural curiosity to go out and explore outside the box and think beyond the typical business world to find out some of these things. Okay, one last one. I lied. I’m going to throw one more in it and then we can wrap up. John’s obviously not going anywhere. Duct tape is his thing. He is been around for a long time, but I’m just curious, what’s next in your future? One day after Duct Tape Marketing Woodworking, there is

John Jantsch (20:20): No after Duct Tape Marketing.

(20:23): Well, maybe somebody who’s very familiar with Duct Tape Marketing will continue the legacy of Duct Tape Marketing. We’ll see if that happens. However, yeah, you mentioned woodworking. I love doing that. I’m really still very much in the amateur ranks, but I do like building furniture and things. I kid, and hopefully my wife can’t hear me right now, but I would like to write another book, but I want to write fiction. I would like to write a book of fiction. And I personally know that it’s a lot harder to write fiction than it is to write nonfiction. So a lot of people would say, oh, you’ve written books before. How hard could that be? But different beast. So I think when I really do wind down kind of daily work on in a business, I will probably try to figure that one out.

Sara Nay (21:06): All right. Well, you heard it here first. Everyone, John Jans is writing a fiction book coming out in 2028. Okay, we’ll say.

John Jantsch (21:16): Okay.

Sara Nay (21:16): All right. Well, that’s all I got for you today.

John Jantsch (21:19): Well, so let me ask you a question.

Sara Nay (21:24): Okay.

John Jantsch (21:26): What has it been like working for your father for coming up on 14 years now?

Sara Nay (21:33): Yeah, I know people actually ask me that sometimes. And it’s funny, I joke that I call you John more often than dad these days because often we’re in a business setting. And so John is just what is easy for me to say, which is pretty funny. I started

John Jantsch (21:48): What you referred to me as Hot pop to your kids.

Sara Nay (21:50): Yeah, my kids, that name. No, I think it’s been a really positive relationship, working relationship over the years. I started as an intern and we were just kind of both like, is this going to work out? Does this make sense? But I think one thing that’s really helped us over the years is we compliment each other well, in terms of our skillset. You’re more of the visionary, the forward thinker. I’m more of the operations systems process person. I’ve become, I think, more of that visionary over the years. But we’ve really, I think, had a positive relationship because we’ve complimented each other and also stayed in our lanes when we needed to as well.

John Jantsch (22:24): Awesome. Well, thank you for taking the host job today, and I’ll take back over and say those of you out there, thanks for joining us. Let me know if you like this chef, you like this idea. Maybe we’ll hear more from Sarah on an ongoing basis to talk about some of the marketing things that we talk about all the time. So again, thanks for taking a few moments to listen to the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, and hopefully we’ll see you one of these days out there on the road.


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