nadosi.com

John Jantsch (00:01.24)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Tommy Mello. He’s a driven entrepreneur who’s built a 220 million home services business with over 700 employees across 20 states. He’s also the founder of Home Service Expert, where he’s dedicated to helping fellow entrepreneurs achieve the same level of success. He’s also the host of a popular Home Service Expert podcast and the author of

Elevate, build a business where everybody wins. So Tommy, welcome to the show.

Tommy Mello (00:35.662)

Thank you. Really excited to be here.

John Jantsch (00:37.004)

So I got looking back at this, think this is at least your second appearance on the show. And I got looking back and the last time you were on the show, it was 2020. were in the throes of, or maybe just starting to come out of the pandemic. And the home services business was really kind of crazy at that point. A lot of folks were in turmoil. A lot of folks were really having trouble finding skilled labor. So.

Fast forward to 2024, what’s the state of the industry today?

Tommy Mello (01:08.962)

Never been better. You know, we were deemed essential during COVID. And the fact is, there’s always this teeter totter. You need more leads or you need more great people. I learned in 2017 how to build my own technicians. So right now we graduate from my training school right next door, about 50 technicians a month. But it’s kind of, I view recruiting like marketing.

John Jantsch (01:11.608)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (01:19.032)

Right.

Tommy Mello (01:36.506)

You got to really define who your avatar is and make sure it’s the right person because if you’re not converting leads getting the right reviews getting the right opportunity job averages You know people are always like I need more leads and I’m like well You must be booking every phone call. You must be converting every Booked call to a paid customer and they’re like, well, what do you mean? And I’m like, well your marketing dollars are going to waste because your call centers Not working out very well. Your technicians are not converting very well. You don’t have a rehash program. So

I’m kind of jumping around here a little bit, but the most important thing is you got the right people showing up to the right leads. And you should be ranking your leads and ranking the people showing up to the leads.

John Jantsch (02:11.202)

Okay.

John Jantsch (02:17.282)

Yeah. So, it’s interesting because I think a lot of business owners, doesn’t matter what industry, kind of think of hiring as an event. I need people. I’ll go out and hire some people. I’ll run some ads. I’ll hire some people. And the way you’re talking about it is more like we would think of traditional marketing. You’ve got to know who that ideal customer is. You’ve got to have the right message. You’ve got to constantly build pipeline to get those folks. And I think of a lot of businesses treated recruitment that way.

They’d find a lot more success rather than just always firefighting.

Tommy Mello (02:52.122)

Can tell you this What if I told you like I want you to the old Pareto 80-20 rule what I’d love people to do is look at their top 20 % I said what if they were able to multiply that by five so that what that means is They take the top 20 % of their working staff and either you got to train them up or out to get into that 20 percentile and Unfortunately when you’re a small business

John Jantsch (02:58.776)

Right, right.

John Jantsch (03:15.918)

Mm-hmm.

Tommy Mello (03:21.582)

like I was for a decade, longer than that actually. I didn’t know what good was. And you know what I used to tell people, John, I used to tell people, if you got a garage, you’re my client. And I’ve quickly, over the last, I’d say seven years, realized that not everybody with a garage door is my client. The people that are price shopping, you could only have three things. My dad taught me this. You could have the cheapest, the best quality, or on your timeline.

You can never give all three. It’s impossible to give all three. So I decided a decade ago, I’m not going to be the cheapest. I’m going get out there today when they need me the most and I’m going to do a quality job with a drug tested background, trustworthy person that can be alone with your wife and kids. And that’s what we’ve done. And I think to be the cheapest is a race to the bottom.

John Jantsch (04:11.726)

Yeah. You got to throw all that other stuff out. Right. So you, you talk about in your writing and, and when we talked before, you know, about kind of struggling a little bit before you kind of turned the corner and, and, you know, figured out how to really scale was that, there any, were there any kind of pivotal moments or pivotal things that really made you, you know, you feel like, you know, kind of made the light bulb come on and, know, really lead to success.

Tommy Mello (04:41.112)

Yeah, this right here, I know not everybody’s watching, but the way my trucks were branded, this was my original truck. It was just a white truck with stenciling on it. Then I got a better wrap that was pretty good. And then I got this one that’s absolutely phenomenal. And this other, the brand new wrap I got, and this had to be about five years ago. It was done by Dan Ancinelli from Kick Charge.

And it doesn’t have a lot of logos like the BBB and Yelp and Angie’s List on it. It doesn’t have anything. It doesn’t even have a phone number on it. It’s a billboard. People can only read five words as they’re driving by. So anybody that puts these 18 words on there and says, you know, call now to get your appointment and this QR code, they’re driving by. So once you get your brand dialed in and now my signature on my email looks like my catalog.

John Jantsch (05:10.02)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (05:33.626)

Looks like my website, looks like my yard signs, looks like my billboards. And then I’ve got a jingle that’s the same everywhere. So that was a big piece of it. I think people don’t understand a part of marketing is your brand. And brand is, you know, some people take them and they differentiate them a little bit, but I think it starts with your brand. And what is your core values and what do you stand for? What can you prove you’re known for? Like you can’t say I’m the best. You can say out of the last thousand jobs, 998.

Started on time and two of them got rectified within 48 hours and those are facts and your kpi should be driven towards the consumer Obviously your financial department’s going to have kpis like what’s your conversion rate and average ticket or what you know balancing income statement and all a lot of great Data about what’s good for us, but we need to start thinking about what’s good for our clients and The biggest thing i’ve Is most companies i’ve invested in most companies that i’ve coached

I find most of their opportunity in their call center, where their leads are coming into. My mom used to answer phones for me, John, and she, sometimes I felt like she was having phone sex. She’s never, I don’t think had phone sex, but she’d be like, my God, honey, I am so sorry. It was like crazy. She’d be like apologizing and empathy and just, honey, I am so, we’re gonna get this fixed. I’m gonna send out my best technician. This is like 15 years ago.

John Jantsch (07:01.624)

Tommy Mello (07:01.914)

I show up to these houses John and the people would give me a hug and they’d be like this is the best company I’ve ever talked to like Whoever that lady was she would never say she’s my mother, but she brag about me She’s I’m gonna send out our best technician this guy. He’s a handsome devil and shit, she never says she’s my mom and I show up and there was putty in my hands like the client would say whatever you guys say to do We’re gonna do it. We’ve never heard of anybody take a call like that

And so I think the contact center, there’s a lot of opportunities. And that’s operational, right? But marketing needs to go through all the way through to where I collect the cash. And even after I get the review and we do business to get in the future. And I think people miss that.

John Jantsch (07:45.604)

You know, I listen to you talk about, mean, obviously your mom was very invested in the success of the business, in your success personally. How do you get employees to feel like, I’m an essential part. mean, a lot of times people answer the phone, they’re like, hey, I’m just putting in my time. You know, I don’t get to see that profit necessarily. mean, you know, all the things people can delude themselves with. So how do you get people, you know, everybody bought in it? Cause I know that’s been a big part of what you’ve really preached.

in terms of really building a company culture.

Tommy Mello (08:19.514)

There’s a simple phrase called what’s in it for them. And I’m not into tenure. I’m not in an hourly pay. I’m in a performance pay. And if you set the guidelines and it’s fair and it’s distinguishable, meaning that it’s not based on somebody’s opinion, performance pay, what’ll happen? And I want to be very careful here for your listeners. If you switch to performance pay, you’ll probably lose 80 % of your staff because they’d like to get paid hourly.

They love to get paid, you know, come and do my job and be done. But when you come up with ways to say what’s in it for them, how can I have them win more? And look, everybody’s like, how do you even start that? Well, you just take your historical data. Like this person’s booking 62%. At first, you got to know KPIs and have data accuracy. There’s got to be some type of data compliance to make sure that it’s accurate. And see, if I got them up, like right now we’ll do 300 million, right, next year. For every percent we increase,

John Jantsch (09:14.328)

Mm-hmm.

Tommy Mello (09:16.346)

The booking rate, that’s $3 million of revenue to the company. At 20%, that’s an extra $600,000 to the EBITDA. And so I’m a mathematical guy, right? So I’m always doing math and coming up with formulas and saying, does this get the right behavior I’m shooting for? And if I share some of it with them, the company and, you know, I win really big, but I allow them to feel like they’re winning really big too in comparison. Because if you’re making $17 an hour, I can pay people $45 an hour.

and still be winning. And how easy is it, do you think, for me to recruit A-plus players when I can pay that much? It’s like taking candy from a baby. It’s like, why would he pay that much? Well, he’s getting people to set him up for success. And that’s so important. It’s just smiling on the phone and empathy and really caring. And you know, I heard this from a buddy of mine. He said, if you ever go to the Four Seasons, you’ll notice that they hire people that genuinely

John Jantsch (09:52.973)

Right.

Tommy Mello (10:16.238)

Genuinely do care like they don’t just say hey, how are you today sir? Nice to see you. See you later They say listen is there anything I can do to make your stay better I’ll tell you this I got to stay it for seasons and in the past They might tell you a story to say it was so magical for me and my family After that day I knew I wanted to work here and my goal is to make sure that this is the best experience you ever have to look you in the eyes They’ll walk you to the bathroom if you ask for a question

John Jantsch (10:17.763)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (10:43.108)

They’ll open up a restaurant that’s closed to make you something themselves that they have the opportunity to do that. And that’s what I think is that we talk so much about marketing, about making the phone ring. And I talk about stacking the deck on the other side by recruiting A plus people on your team.

John Jantsch (10:59.214)

Talk a little bit about that concept of recruiting versus creating, you know, A plus team. Obviously, if somebody is already a proven superstar salesperson, they’re, you’re going to pay for it, right? You know, to recruit them perhaps. Whereas I know you spend a lot of time and energy actually training and teaching and creating A players. Talk a little bit about that, the difference between those two ideas.

Tommy Mello (11:28.288)

I do think there’s certain things that look for I hire for personality. So I contact tonality. Can you tell a great story to you smile a lot when I take you and your wife or husband out to dinner. But I find that you guys get along well because if there’s problems at home there’s more likely going to be problems when you come to work because you’re trying to kind of put yourself out of a fire that you just got into at home. But what we do is we train train train train train we role play.

John Jantsch (11:32.664)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (11:50.532)

You

Tommy Mello (11:56.174)

And we just focus on these attributes of like believe in yourself. The first thing you need to do is believe in yourself. And that’s what eye contact tonality smiling is, is believing in yourself. And I’m not Starbucks. I can’t hire people to save them, to start looking through their lens differently. It’s so hard to do that. It takes years. It takes years. Sometimes people go into the military, very unorganized, come out very, very organized, but that takes sometimes four to eight years. So I try to find the right canvas.

And then I try to teach these things like the words we use. We never say, this is how much it costs. We say the investment would be this. It is an investment. It’s the number one ROI on your home. The number one investment more than your kitchens or bathrooms is your garage. Remodel magazine six years in a row, an unbiased third party. So we teach them the words to say, we monitor this. We’ve got systems that record the whole conversation in the garage with the client. That’s for the client’s best interest, but it’s also to coach.

We say kneel down when you’re doing when you’re presenting you don’t want to be above the customer because you make them feel inferior There’s a lot of things that we try to do and when I played football We did two a days we practiced ten times a week to play one game So in business, why shouldn’t we do the same thing or should we go after you train? You’re just gonna go practice on the customer’s house forever And I don’t know about you, but I like nice things that last I’ve gone with the cheapest

to fix my house when I did a remodel in 2012. I’ll never go at the best price again. Because I had to redo the roof after five years. I’m on my third AC unit. I just want the best. I don’t want to have to worry about it. think homeowners are smart. They’re like, you know what? What’s the… And what if you had a magic moment where you said, you know what I care about the most? I care that my kids could go to school. And I care that my wife makes it to work on time. Because that’s what we miss today.

So you called the best option. This is to keep the kids coming to school on time and make sure your wife gets to work. And there’s these magic moments and you title the estimates exactly what the client cares about. And you title it, this is the one that’ll give you the best investment for moving in five years and making sure you’re graduate or last. Because they say, I’m gonna move in five years. So you say, listen, we don’t need you to do the Taj Mahal. Out of the five options, let’s do number four.

John Jantsch (14:03.428)

you

John Jantsch (14:27.62)

I actually recently put in two new garage door openers and it’s been a while since I had replaced one and they’ve gotten a lot more technical. There’s a heck of lot of bells and whistles in those things. mean, the price range is, you know, three, four X. You you can buy the cheapest one to the Taj Mahal. It’s gotten a lot more sophisticated, hasn’t it?

Tommy Mello (14:51.352)

Yeah, now you know, that’s the deal. They got the my queue. The the opener’s got a brain. And the brain will tell you know we’ve we’ve worked out a pretty good opportunity with the manufacturer that will know if you got a problem before you do and will just come out. We guarantee one hour service that if something it’s got this thing called a force adjustment, so if it comes down on something or comes off track, will know about it. And.

John Jantsch (14:54.936)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:11.736)

Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy Mello (15:17.464)

That’s gotta be nice for you because before you know that you got a problem or showing up saying let us look at everything and make sure everything’s okay.

John Jantsch (15:24.324)

Yeah. My favorite attribute is I know when the door opens. And so, you know, I’ll be in here and I have my office in my house and my wife will go grocery shopping. I know it’s time to go down there and get the groceries out of the car. I don’t even have to hear it. Talk a little bit about skilled labor. mean, people, you know, people aren’t coming out of high school today thinking I want to go be a carpenter or, you know, whatever electrician.

Tommy Mello (15:38.36)

Yeah, that was great.

John Jantsch (15:53.39)

nearly enough, I think, to meet the demand. So what have you done to, really kind of shore up that you hire for, like you say, you know, personality or fit, but they still have to be able to install something. They still have to be able to fix something. What are you doing to kind of shore up that, that end of it?

Tommy Mello (16:11.874)

Well, we spend 12 % of our revenue on marketing, okay? So if we do 25 million, we’re spending a few million dollars a month in marketing. So we’re in Val Pak, all over website optimization, we, Clipper Magazine, the newspaper, PFP Deals, Angie, every lead aggregator out there, we’re on TV, radio, billboards. The idea is why not put the recruiting ad into some of these?

And say, at A1 Graduates, you’ve always known us for great service, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now we’re looking for more. You want to do two in one. You want to do the marketing and the recruiting in the same message. And then you want to have this massive funnel that chops, chops, chops, chops. Every time it chops down to this smaller amount, it’s refining, refining, refining, refining. Here’s what I do know. Artificial intelligence and robotics are not going to replace

Garage doors HVAC plumbing electrical roofing anytime soon. No one’s gonna come out with a robot and install windows But I’ll tell you what this camera stuff we’re working on the the drones and the different things They’re all gonna be AI AI is gonna fix everything left brain AI is like handling here soon Development coding everybody said hey go into coding go into coding. Well AI is gonna fit you’re not gonna have a job So these blue collar things that were shit on for a long time Like man, it was embarrassing if you were H a

John Jantsch (17:17.166)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:31.299)

You

Tommy Mello (17:39.194)

I do. a plumber. Now it’s like you’re beating your chair. You’re like, I’m a plumber, baby. It’s like our day. This is our time. And I think the word’s getting out there. Like the average plumber is 49 years old. And now you got this amazing amount of people going, look, I don’t think I was cut out to go to college and go into debt for $200,000 because I don’t really know if I want to go into economics or accounting. And I don’t know if my future, what the future holds there. So I do know that

John Jantsch (17:42.82)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (18:09.238)

No one’s going to be fixing anything on the home at least for a decade. I don’t think this robot’s going to be coming out and doing it for a while. So I think people are starting to understand that and they’re starting to say, I don’t want to go into debt. We pay to train you. You come to work for A1, you’re to get paid a very healthy living to get trained. then if you can’t make two grand a week, shame on you your first year. If you can’t make three grand a week on year two, shame on you.

We’re going to give you the tools. pay for the tools. We’re to give you a brand new van. We’re going to give you training. We’re going to give you role play. We’re going to make you, you know, we’re going to give you a flexible schedule. We’re going to make sure your wife and kids are bought in. It’s typically a man going out to do the work. We’ve hired over 20 female technicians. Unfortunately, it’s a harder job on the body than most realize, but it’s a really rewarding job. And I think the more we can share the stories, we’ve got a full-time dream manager. Their job is to help people dream.

John Jantsch (19:06.02)

Hmm.

Tommy Mello (19:09.21)

What do you want out of life? Do you want to go on that big vacation? Do you want to buy a home or a second home or a third home? What does that mean needs to happen? Well, it means these need to be your KPIs. And when I talk to you, I just say, listen, you ever you told me you want to take your kids to Disney World First Class, let’s skip all the lines. Do you realize if we just if you had a little bit higher conversion rate and I’ll show you exactly what you need to do to do that, that you would make that happen this year? So you talk about

What’s in it for them again? they don’t care that, hey, Tommy sits down with them and he wants to make more money to the bottom line and you’re gonna be on a performance improvement plan. No one cares about that. They care about like, what about me? What about my family? What about the people I care about? Like, I took a chance working for you. Why don’t you teach me more? But you gotta remind them. You gotta remind them about their why and what it means to their life in the future. And hopefully you’ll hire the right people that have plans. Because some people go through life

I just say I’m okay being mediocre.

John Jantsch (20:11.268)

Well, Tommy, run out of time, but I appreciate again, you stopping by. Very inspirational as always. I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. there some place you want to invite people to find out more about? I know you’ve got a variety of different interests and things you’re involved in, but what’s the best way for people to find out more about what you’re doing?

Tommy Mello (20:32.514)

Yeah, if you just go to Tommy mellow, there’s no w at the end of my name. So Tommy e l l o dot com. You see all my social media, my books, everything’s there. And if you go to Tommy mellow dot com for slash shop, you can do a shop tour. I don’t charge anything. If you ever get find yourself in Phoenix or want to come out here. It’s a great experience. It’s a way to pay it forward like everybody did for me when when I was coming up in the home service home improvement space.

It’s a way for me to brag on the team and it’s a way for me to help you because I do believe that if you help people it comes back tenfold. I think that Zig Zayler said you could have anything you want in life if you help enough people get what they want. And I’m a true believer of that. I really am. So if anybody needs anything reach out to me. I got 80 ways from Sunday to reach me. I’ve got a full-time team, a massive team these days that make sure that it gets that I’m aware of the comments and questions. So

I appreciate this podcast and I’m looking forward to having you on.

John Jantsch (21:34.583)

Likewise, we’re gonna record back to back today. again, thank you for taking a few moments to share with our audience and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Tommy Mello (21:44.42)

Sounds great, appreciate you.

Solving the Marketing Leadership Gap for Small Business

Solving the Marketing Leadership Gap for Small Business written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I tackle a critical topic that small businesses face today: the marketing leadership gap. Many small businesses struggle with disconnected marketing efforts, scattered strategies, and stagnant growth, not due to a lack of tactics but because they lack marketing leadership to tie it all together.

As we look ahead to the future of marketing in 2025, I dive into why traditional solutions—like hiring agencies or fractional CMOs—often fall short and what businesses must do to implement a long-term marketing strategy that drives sustainable business growth. This episode uncovers how a marketing system combined with leadership can transform small businesses into scalable, successful enterprises.

Key Takeaways:

Most small businesses fail at marketing not because of a lack of tools or tactics but because of a marketing leadership gap.
Strong marketing leadership ensures all efforts align with business goals and drive measurable growth.
Fix foundational issues first: improve messaging, optimize your website, and focus on building trust through content marketing.
Implement a repeatable marketing system that delivers consistent, long-term results.
Treat marketing as an asset, not a cost, to increase business value and make your company more attractive for future opportunities.
Marketing leadership as a service (e.g., fractional CMOs) offers small businesses and agencies an affordable way to gain strategic guidance.
AI can improve marketing execution but cannot replace the leadership and strategy required for success.
Agencies should shift their approach to think like architects of marketing systems, not just contractors executing tasks.
Businesses must focus on long-term marketing strategies instead of quick, disconnected efforts.
Closing the marketing leadership gap will help small businesses achieve sustainable business growth and success in 2025 and beyond.

Chapters:

[01:50] The Leadership Gap in Marketing
[02:57] Why Marketing Leadership Matters
[03:39] Steps to Fix Marketing Leadership Gap
[08:48] Marketing Leadership as a Service

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Nobody does data better than Oracle. Train your AI models at twice the speed and less than half of the cost of other clouds. If you want to do more and spend less, take a free test drive at Oracle.

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.04)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and no guest today. I am doing a solo show. Let’s call this Solving the Marketing Leadership Gap for Small Business. How’s that sound like for a lofty title? Now I could also, we’re ending, depending upon when you’re listening, we’re coming to the end of 2024. I could also title this what I think the future of marketing is, whether you’re an agency or whether you’re a small business owner trying to market your

business. Let me ask you this. Have ever felt your marketing stuck? Have you ever told your agency marketing stuck? Like it’s disconnected, it’s scattered, it’s not driving growth. Look, you’re not alone. I hear that every single day. So that’s what we’re going to talk about. Why I think that happens and what your business can do to fix it. We’re going to explore an issue. I’m not selling anything today. We’re going to explore an issue that I probably will be selling.

solutions more directly for, but I want to get, I want to dive into what I think is at the crux of where we’re going. There’s a lot. I’ve said this earlier in my, I did do a 2025 trends post and I’ve said this a lot. think 2025 is going to make 2020, the change of 2024 pale in comparison. I think we’re going to see so much change that happens with businesses and we’re already seeing it. I’m hearing from agencies.

and business owners saying, hey, something’s going on out there. I’m not getting the leads. I’m not getting the traffic to my website. So I think we’re going to see a big shift in the winners and the losers, if I can say it that way. So look, hopefully you’ve got some big goals for your business, but here’s the missing thing. You’re lacking internal marketing leadership to guide those goals.

Let me focus on that word again, leadership. You might have internal marketing, you might have internal marketing hires, you might have hired an agency that is doing amazing job with your marketing or some aspect of your marketing, but you’re lacking leadership. You’ve got a website, maybe you’re running some ads, posting on social media, but nothing feels very connected and you’re not really seeing the results, right? So the traditional solutions, I already talked about them. Hire an agency.

John Jantsch (02:27.416)

that’s probably going to be very focused on execution, hire full-time marketing leader, maybe a CMO or fractional CMO, maybe pretty expensive. Right. And then the DIY, which hopefully you’ve realized that’s a tough road, right? You don’t have the time. You don’t have the expertise. It’s probably taking you away from the things that really do matter in your business. If you’re going to move your business forward, I’m not saying marketing doesn’t matter. There just might be higher payoff things that you’re more suited.

to do. Most businesses fail at marketing because they lack not because they lack tactics, but they fail because they lack leadership really to tie it all together. And I think that that is been really a theme. Now I’ve, you know, for 30 years, certainly the 20 plus years I’ve been doing this podcast, I’ve been talking about strategy before tactics, and that is a big piece of it. But there’s also a leadership

component. I think you need somebody to take ownership of that strategy and sure that really every marketing effort aligns with your growth goals. It’s not about doing more. It’s about doing the right things in the right order. Number one, developing a marketing strategy, but then having somebody that is there to help you fix the foundational issues really to tie it all together to orchestrate it. A lot of times, you know, when we start working with somebody,

before we can really do much for them in terms of growth or even in brand is we have to get their messaging right. We have to actually, in most cases, redo their brochure website and turn it actually into a sales asset. We have to talk about content that is educational and trust building. And once we get through that foundation, then we need to actually build a repeatable marketing system. One that ensures you’re not just throwing money at the next new thing.

You’re building a machine that works long term. So that’s the component that I think marketing leadership brings. It’s not just somebody that says, this is what we ought to do. This is how we ought to price it. This is how we ought to talk about our products and services. That’s great to have that strategy, that component. But you also need somebody who is really then orchestrating on that. So breaking it down, you need the strategy first, right? Clear path, aligned goals, customer needs.

John Jantsch (04:54.82)

Identify what’s missing, what needs fixing. Then you need to have those foundational issues fixed. Then you need to build a system. And then you actually need to start thinking about marketing as an asset in your business. And by that, mean, you need to start hiring and training a team to take over and keep that system running. that’s, know, if you think about it, if you went out there and hired, you were at a point where you’re like, gosh, we need to take marketing seriously. We need to hire some marketing leadership.

we need to hire a marketing manager. We need to hire a marketing fractional CMO. Well, that person would come in and hopefully you develop a strategy and nine times out of 10 there, they’d say, okay, who are we going to get to do the work? Because I’m, I’m not writing the emails. That’s not my job. and so whether it’s going to be a third party or you’re going to actually bring somebody, in and hire and train those OREX or have your marketing leader hire and train those folks. that’s really what I think the

I think that the agency model today is just what I’m starting to call marketing leadership as a service. So that includes strategy development, foundation fixes, then installing that system and then training and handing off into your business somebody who can actually run that system. That’s the piece that’s really been missing. know, people have either hired somebody one off, didn’t really know what to tell them to do. They got a little result, but it seemed

seem like they weren’t getting anything or they’ve hired an agency. Same thing. Nobody was directing them. Or maybe they’ve hired somebody to come in and build a strategy, but then nobody to really execute that. So, marketing leadership, I believe, is the missing link for most small businesses. And I believe that agencies today, if you are an agency, a consultant, marketing strategist out there listening, this idea of selling marketing leadership

as a service, I hope actually set some bells off and in some cases alarm bells, because this is what the market needs. And I think that you’re going to find not only are people going to want it, they’re going to want to pay a premium or expect to pay a premium for that person who can bring leadership. AI cannot provide strategy. AI cannot provide leadership. Agencies need to start thinking like

John Jantsch (07:17.368)

architects as opposed to contractors don’t do the work. AI is actually going to do a lot of the specialized work. But that leadership component that is executing on a strategy that is building a marketing system, that’s what’s missing. And I’ve been saying marketing is a system, as I said, for 25 years. However, we’re really getting to the point where that’s a very tangible idea. For a lot of folks,

It’s still even though they agreed with me marketing is a system It felt like a vague idea because really what you were doing was plugging people in to do things And it felt very much like traditional marketing but I believe that we are on the crux of or the what’s a better way to say that the precipice. that’s a good word precipice of This idea that we can in fact finally install a marketing system

in a business because of AI and because we are taking this idea as marketing leadership, as a service, as the missing ingredient. So next time you feel like your marketing isn’t working, ask yourself, do I have any leadership? Do I have a system in place to make it work? If not, that’s the first thing you need to fix. But if this conversation resonated with you, stay tuned. We are going to in 2025.

have a very set step one, step two, step three, step four, that really focuses on positioning what we do as bringing this to small midsize businesses. So stay tuned. If you like this idea, if you’re an agency consultant, if you’re a business owner and you like this idea, just reach out to John at ducttapemarketing.com and tell me you like the idea, you want to hear more. And I will tell you how we can actually build marketing as an asset in your business, not

as a cost, not as an expense in your business. It actually can be something that will make your business more valuable, not just because you’ll grow revenue and get more customers, because you’ll be able to show somebody. Let’s say you want to exit your business, you’ll be able to show somebody here’s how our marketing system works. And that can be one of the most valuable things you can do in your business. So take care. If you’re listening to this post 2025, have a happy new year.

John Jantsch (09:41.372)

Happy end of the year and let’s make 2025 rock. Hopefully we’ll see you one of these days out there on the road.

How the Right Creators Can Transform Your B2B Marketing

How the Right Creators Can Transform Your B2B Marketing written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Nick Bennett

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Nick Bennett, a pioneering expert in B2B influencer marketing who’s reshaping how companies approach digital marketing strategies. As a co-founder of TACK and author of B2B Influencer Marketing: Work With Creators to Generate Authentic and Effective Marketing, Bennett reveals the transformative power of authentic creator partnerships in today’s competitive business landscape.

The conversation uncovers a critical shift in B2B marketing: moving from traditional, corporate-driven approaches to a more human-centric, creator-powered strategy that drives real business results. Bennett’s insights demonstrate how the right creators can become powerful catalysts for brand awareness, lead generation, and revenue growth.

Key Takeaways:

Micro-Influencers Matter: The sweet spot for B2B influencers is 10,000 to 50,000 followers
Authentic Partnerships Are Everything: Partnerships should be collaborative, not transactional
Strategic Influencer Marketing Drives Real Results: Integrate influencer strategies into broader marketing efforts
The Creator Economy is Transforming B2B Marketing: Leverage subject matter experts who have credible industry voice
Technology Enables Smarter Influencer Strategies: Focus on mastering AI tools rather than fearing them

Chapters:

[01:02] Who is Nick Bennett?
[01:40] Defining Influencer Marketing in B2B vs B2C
[03:51] Best Practices for B2B Marketing and Influencer Integration
[06:48] Challenges and Misconceptions in B2B Influencer Marketing
[08:48] Successful Product Launch with Influencer Program
[11:34] Effectiveness and Authenticity in Influencer Partnerships
[15:23] Navigating Global Influencer Marketing
[18:47] Niche Focus and Controversial Content for Engagement

More About Nick Bennett:

Check out Nick Bennett’s Website
Connect with Nick Bennett on LinkedIn
Read B2B Influencer Marketing: Work With Creators to Generate Authentic and Effective Marketing by Nick Bennett

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Nobody does data better than Oracle. Train your AI models at twice the speed and less than half of the cost of other clouds. If you want to do more and spend less, take a free test drive at Oracle.

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.17)

Welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Nick Bennett. He’s a co-founder of TACK, a media network and go-to-market firm, helping businesses convert demand into revenue through their people-first GTM model. With over a decade of experience in B2B tech industry, Nick specializes in crafting innovative go-to-market strategies. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today.

John Jantsch (00:28.25)

B2B influencer marketing, work with creators to generate authentic and effective marketing. So, Nick, welcome to the show.

Nick Bennett (00:36.198)

Thank you so much for having me. Excited to be here.

John Jantsch (00:38.69)

So let’s define influencer marketing. I suspect that people would have different definitions of what that means or perceptions of what that is. How do you describe it when you tell somebody about your book and they say, what’s influencer marketing?

Nick Bennett (00:42.748)

Nick Bennett (00:53.2)

Yeah, so I think in B2B, it’s a little bit different than B2C. I think that’s the first thing that we have to tackle. But in B2B specifically, I think an influencer is someone who holds authority or credibility within a specific industry. So they could be a subject matter expert, they could be a creator, they could be a practitioner. There are people who share valuable insights. They have a loyal, engaged following of an audience on different social media platforms.

John Jantsch (00:56.474)

Yes. Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:19.302)

So I think a lot of people, especially when you talk about in the B2C world, naturally think of Peyton Manning, Kim Kardashian, I don’t know, some of the folks that show up that way. But really, I’m guessing in the B2B space, it might be somebody you’ve never heard of, but 1,000 people think that he or she knows everything. mean, is that kind of micro audience pretty significant?

Nick Bennett (01:43.484)

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that’s the big thing in B2B. It’s not the million person follower counts that matter. It’s that kind of like 10,000 to 50,000 follower range. That is like the sweet spot in B2B.

John Jantsch (01:58.19)

In fact, would you go as far as saying, I know this is a blanket statement, so there’s holes in it, but would you go as far as saying that traditional celebrity endorsements really are not going to work in B2B?

Nick Bennett (02:10.414)

absolutely. I’ve

Nick Bennett (02:11.554)

seen B2B companies try to specifically at events and it just hasn’t worked, which is why I think so many people are turning to working with creators. And I should mention there is a difference between creators and influences. So everyone can become a creator. You and I are both creators, but not every creator has influence. in B2B, you shouldn’t self-dub yourself in influence. So just like B2C, people can do that because it’s just what is known, but there’s such a misunderstanding of

Nick Bennett (02:38.714)

what a creator and what an influencer is in B2B. And that’s everything that I’ve been trying to battle for the last couple of years.

John Jantsch (02:45.744)

Yeah, it’s really more than to get somebody excited. Like you bring to your CMO, we need to do influencer marketing in all sense. Like, no, you know, that’s not for us, right?

Nick Bennett (02:54.908)

Exactly.

John Jantsch (02:57.327)

So what are some of the best practices or strategies that B2B marketers should employ?

Nick Bennett (03:02.362)

Yeah, well, I think it’s figuring out what are the outcomes that you want to achieve. And so when you think about, know, hey, I’m going to deploy this as a tactic because it’s interesting. Creators and influencers can be used as its own channel, but it can also be used as a tactic within other channels that you’re already running, like events and social and things like that. So I think it’s understanding what are, what does success mean for us?

Nick Bennett (03:29.742)

in aligning your goals around that. So when I think of like, what are the core KPIs of what success actually means, it could be engagement metrics. So again, if you’re going to go on LinkedIn, for example, and partner with people to drive brand awareness, you care about the likes, the comments, the shares, how many people are driving traffic to my website. If you care about reaching impressions, hey, I’m trying to get into manufacturing, tech for manufacturing. It’s like, I care about

Nick Bennett (03:58.588)

the size of the audience reach within that specific industry. Then you’ve got the lead gen side, which is like, all right, number of inquiries, signups, pipeline growth. Like you could use that for a PLG motion. And then revenue impact. Are you directly or influencing sales as someone that is promoting a service? Cause it’s not like B2C where it’s like, Hey, go buy this, you know, $20 hair straightener. It’s, Hey,

Nick Bennett (04:22.298)

you don’t go buy this $50,000 piece of tech that you’re going to use in your stack. It’s a big difference. And so a lot of people, unfortunately, are promoting stuff and they’re not using it. And so you build trust with your audience and then you promote stuff and they believe you. And it just leaves a lot of people disappointed. So when I look to partner with brands or I’m working to build programs,

Nick Bennett (04:46.3)

you have to use the product. I’m not saying you have to use it for years, but you can’t just go into a partnership without using the product.

John Jantsch (04:54.064)

So you mentioned different metrics, so there would be different objectives possibly, right? I mean, somebody might want to create awareness. like, I’m going to sponsor this podcast so people start hearing about us. Or I’m going to sponsor this techie webinar because I want to create demand. mean, would that be a true statement?

Nick Bennett (05:16.056)

Absolutely. And I think it’s a great way when you can figure out, multiple, it’s, you don’t want to silo things. So when you can make it part of a larger part of your integrated strategy, makes sense. I’ll give you good example of that. I had an old podcast called the anonymous market and it’s no longer going, but Google actually used to sponsor that podcast. And I was like, all right, why would Google want to sponsor my podcast? You know, it’s, it was Google cloud and we ended up integrating it into a lot of different pieces. So there was the podcast, there was the social media aspect.

John Jantsch (05:39.12)

Yeah.

Nick Bennett (05:45.808)

There was actually webinars. So it was a much more than like, hey, we just want to sponsor the podcast to get more awareness out there. Like they don’t need the awareness. They were trying to tap into specific audiences in certain parts of the, the U S actually.

John Jantsch (06:00.048)

Yeah, yeah. So what have you found are some of the challenges or limitations of B2B? So we talked a little bit about best practices, but what are some of the realities in some of the limitations for B2B companies?

Nick Bennett (06:15.3)

I think a lot of people just still don’t know how this works or how that you should be operating or building a program from this. Like so, so often I talk to CMOs and founders and they’re like, I want to do influence of marketing. And I’m just like, okay, like, what do you want to do? And they’re just like, I don’t know. I want to do a LinkedIn post. Now the issue is you’re going to go partner with say five people, do a LinkedIn post. You’re going to get some hype that, that day. Maybe you’re launching on product taunts or you’re doing new product, whatever it is. The issue is.

Nick Bennett (06:43.77)

a lot of brands don’t do anything with that content after they have that lightning strike for that one day. And then everything goes away because just like, just like real life social media, like all that stuff disappears in about 24 hours. And so then what, and I think that’s the biggest issue is so many CMOs and marketing leaders are disappointed in their spend because they’re like, it’s not, it’s not impacting sales. It’s not impacting, you know, signups. And it’s just like, you can’t just do a one-off thing and think it’s going to change the world here. This is something that

Nick Bennett (07:13.402)

It has to become a program and it has to be bought in from the top down and be part of your integrated strategy.

John Jantsch (07:20.814)

Yeah, and really, you know, I’ve heard a lot of people talk about, know, especially in B2B, that you’re not looking at this as an endorsement. It’s more of a partnership, right?

Nick Bennett (07:29.436)

And you nailed that word partnership because that’s still what people still aren’t sure. just like, I want to do a one-off thing. It’s very transactional. And one of the things that I work on in championing it as well is people first. it’s like, okay, people first, the core of what people first actually means is partner driven, ecosystem driven. so creators and influencers play a big piece of that.

Nick Bennett (07:53.542)

But it’s still, there’s so much education that still has to be done because we’re very much in the early adopter phase, at least in tech for B2B.

John Jantsch (08:02.534)

So I’ll put you on the spot a little bit. Can you think of a, could you give an example of what, you know, what a typical successful campaign like this would look like? mean, pick whatever medium or you don’t have to even name names. You can even just kind of give us a, you know, a fake case study.

Nick Bennett (08:19.386)

Yeah, no, no, I have a real one I can use for sure. So we actually partnered with a company called Path Factory. They’re in the of kind of content repository world, but they were building an AI product, know, surprise, everyone’s building an AI product. And it was like an, exactly. And it was an AI chat bot. And so they were launching that, but they had to launch it.

John Jantsch (08:21.669)

Okay.

John Jantsch (08:34.086)

Even if they aren’t.

Nick Bennett (08:44.302)

literally in a two week window because they were acquiring another company and they needed like they needed this product to fit in here before they announced the acquisition of that company. So they came to us and one of the things they said, you hey, we need you to build the whole brand narrative positioning messaging, but we also want you to build an influencer program to be able to get the awareness out there because it was kind of like a PLG play. So it was part PLG, like they needed the signups, but they also needed the awareness piece of it.

John Jantsch (08:48.848)

Mm.

Nick Bennett (09:13.764)

And within a week, I was able to get them about 15 people. were like, listen, I have a $5,000 budget on what we can spend on paying these creators to create LinkedIn posts. was solely LinkedIn. And I went out, found these people, got their approval, built this entire program. We went live and it was one of their most successful launches that they’ve had. And it’s actually still going really, really well. And now they’ve actually adopted an entire.

Nick Bennett (09:39.63)

influencer program and they’re hiring an actual person to like manage this all for them now. But we did the whole thing in two weeks from like start to finish and it was like, I don’t recommend anyone do that. with what we had to do, I’m very happy with the results.

John Jantsch (09:48.688)

Yes.

John Jantsch (09:52.72)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (09:58.726)

So one of the challenges probably is fit, AT &T sponsored my, I’m just gonna say this, I’m gonna go out on a limb and say it, AT &T sponsored my podcast for about a year and I wasn’t really a fan of AT &T, frankly. I probably wasn’t a great fit. I mean, I didn’t do anything to tarnish the brand or anything, but I didn’t have any passion for it. How much of that do you believe needs to be there?

John Jantsch (10:28.518)

Does somebody need to be a champion or does somebody need to, or is it basically, if they’re going to pay me, I’ll say what they need me to say.

Nick Bennett (10:36.444)

Well, the issue is there’s so many people that are now under the mindset where, if they’re going to pay me, I didn’t realize I could get paid for this type of stuff, which is, which is hurting a lot of the original people that have been doing this like me and others. Exactly. And that’s the issue because then it’s, it’s false advertising because you don’t use the product. You’re promoting it. I’m going to go buy that. And then I’m going to be mad that, you know, Joe told me to go buy this and now it’s a terrible product, but

John Jantsch (10:44.024)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:48.624)

Yeah, they were just like, I love this product. You should see it. Right.

John Jantsch (11:01.168)

Right?

Nick Bennett (11:04.9)

In my mind, and what I tell everyone that I work with, and even in the book, it’s like, you have to believe in the mission. Maybe it’s not the mission of the company, but the mission of the category. Because if you’re not a believer of the category and what you’re looking to solve, then you’re never going to be bought into anything. And like I said, you have to use the product. Because as a marketer myself, I don’t partner with any brand where they won’t let me use the product. And I want to see how I can fit it into my regular life.

John Jantsch (11:28.974)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Nick Bennett (11:32.132)

I did just one recently with this company called Tango, small company, but they basically, what they do is they help you create, you know, SOPs for different. Yeah. And fantastic product. And so like, I started using it because I’m just a two person business and we have worked with a lot of contractors and I started to map out all these things. I was like, wow, this is fantastic. And I feel like it comes across so more human, so more authentic in the content that you create when you can actually use it.

John Jantsch (11:38.66)

Yeah, yeah, I’m familiar with it, yeah, Yep.

John Jantsch (11:58.192)

Yeah, yeah, no, I agree 100%. In the early days of influencer marketing, it was, know, people were used to controlling the message, right? And so in the early days, people were very freaked out by the fact that, somebody else is gonna, who’s not an employee is gonna talk about us and we’re gonna pay him. You know, how much risk or exposure, you know, do people still feel is a part of this?

Nick Bennett (12:07.1)

Thank

Nick Bennett (12:22.448)

I don’t think there’s much anymore. Every brand that I’ve worked with and talked to, they have ultimately write a refusal on like, does the content go live or not? But they are lessening the guardrails and they say, listen, I want you to bring your creative freedom. That’s why we’re paying to work with you. We don’t wanna dictate what you should write because that’s not human. so every…

Nick Bennett (12:46.384)

I’m working on one right now where I’m going through and I’m kind of thinking about it and I sent it to the brand and they were like, well, we want you to spin it more like this. And I was just like, no, that’s not how this works because you’re trying to dictate my point of view, which is that that’s not how I feel. And so we actually ended up ending the partnership because they were trying to put words in my mouth a little bit and I didn’t want those words to come out.

John Jantsch (13:05.851)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:10.01)

Yeah. Yeah. I personally, we do a lot of sponsors on this show and I personally like it when a brand says, here’s the talking points, but we want you to say it like you would say it as opposed to read this script. I, and personally, I know for a fact, comes off more authentic when I just make it up. Yeah. Yeah.

Nick Bennett (13:29.756)

100%. I’m the same way. I feel like

Nick Bennett (13:31.787)

it’s it’s so much more conversational versus like, you robotic. It’s like, it’s just like, you know, AI has made content creation so easy today. It’s so easy to spot on social media what’s written with AI and not. So we don’t, we don’t need that when people are, you know, doing podcasts, webinars, things like that.

John Jantsch (13:44.358)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:50.372)

Yeah. Yeah. Especially the comments on LinkedIn. Those are painful. What about the international market? I know that, you again, sometimes, you know, you’re in your little bubble, you know, who the people in your space are, you know, you start going out globally. How do you find those? How do you connect? You know, maybe in some cases, you know, you’ve got obviously language, you know, issues or not issues, but challenges. So how, you know, how do you, how do brands kind of

Nick Bennett (13:52.86)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:20.154)

manage that if that’s goal.

Nick Bennett (14:23.534)

Yeah, I think it’s something they’re still trying to figure out. There’s one brand in particular called Cognizm. They’re like a data provider in the UK, and they do influencer marketing really, really well. They’ve been doing it for like seven years. Fantastic job. They have an entire program. But they were running into a similar issue where they were like, it’s hard to find people globally if you’re based in another part of the world. And it’s just like, what if you know…

John Jantsch (14:30.704)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Bennett (14:49.936)

The way I talk about something is not the same way that you talk about something. How do you get that to come across in a different tone? but marketplaces have made it really easy to, find people to partner with. And that was something that was always lacking in B2B and B2C. You could go find influencer marketing, you know, marketplaces like, Hey, I want to find someone that talks about AI and tech. Boom. Here’s a hundred people that I could go partner with through this platform. Now B2B hasn’t really had that up until about.

Nick Bennett (15:19.67)

six months or eight months ago. So many have tried, but they couldn’t figure out how to monetize that. And now a few brands have created these marketplaces where they play matchmaker. And they pair, regardless of where you are in the world, you with different types of creators based on the filters that you want. And I’ve been waiting for this for so long because outside of that, you just had to go on LinkedIn or X and find these people and just send them a cold message.

Nick Bennett (15:46.714)

And these platforms have made it a lot easier to facilitate the outreach, to facilitate the campaign actually happening, the reporting, all of that stuff.

John Jantsch (15:56.304)

So let’s flip it around a little bit. I’ve been talking mostly about how businesses would use this. But if I’m a content creator and I think, hey, I want to get in on this influencer action, how do I get myself identified as a potential influencer?

Nick Bennett (16:09.946)

You just got to show up every single day. So I’ve been creating LinkedIn on LinkedIn now for five years, every single day. think most I’ve taken a couple of weeks off over the last five years, mostly around the holidays or if I went on vacation, but I have showed up every single day and it’s repetition, it’s consistency. think that all pays off. Like you don’t have to have the biggest number of followers. I only have like 53,000 followers, but I have an engaged audience of people that actually care what I have to say.

John Jantsch (16:15.002)

Right. Yeah.

Nick Bennett (16:39.308)

And again, what I’ve said has changed over those five years. When I started five years ago, I was a field marketer. was an event marketer for early stage tech companies in-house doing my thing. And I would talk about that. Then I started talking about account-based marketing and customer marketing. And then about a year and a half ago, went out on my own with my partner, who was my former CMO at our last company. And now we champion everything around People First and the creator economy and things like that. But again,

Nick Bennett (17:07.312)

I’ve got to a point where it doesn’t matter what I write or what I have to say. There’s going to be people that support me. I could say the sky is blue and it’s going to be still people that support me even though that adds no value, but it’s because I’ve done it so consistently over the last five years.

John Jantsch (17:21.69)

Yeah, so you’ve got to move beyond hobby, amateur, to GoPro. Would you say that it’s probably useful to pick a niche or to pick a point of view or to pick a very specific topic so that you can, you you may not have a million followers, but for people who do X, you you’re it.

Nick Bennett (17:25.198)

Yes.

Nick Bennett (17:44.38)

It’s a loaded question because there’s going to be people that will debate both sides of it. I personally will say yes, because for me, as a field marketer and event marketer originally starting, that was my niche and it was so impactful the amount of DMs I got from people that was like, hey, I can relate. Thank you. Now, there is some people that say, you don’t need to just talk about whatever you want.

John Jantsch (17:48.42)

Yeah, yeah.

Nick Bennett (18:08.92)

It’s again, going back to AI, AI has made it so easy to create content. You’re not going to stand out if you just talk about random stuff and you’re just starting out. You have to have a strong POV and you have to stand for something. And if you don’t stand for something and cannot kind of add your own spin to it, you’re just going to get lost in all those other people that just, you know, throwing up posts every once in a while.

John Jantsch (18:29.54)

Yeah, yeah, there’s no question. mean, you, you, you see it all the time. The people who have the most reactions, positive and negative, you know, are saying stuff that’s kind of polarizing. Right.

Nick Bennett (18:39.324)

Yeah, it’s

Nick Bennett (18:40.524)

you know, there’s there’s this guy out there. You know, he’s he’s fantastic person Adam Robinson He’s the founder of our RB to be and he always puts controversial stuff on LinkedIn and like he’ll start like LinkedIn like Beefs with people it’s so so interesting. Like there’s so many like LinkedIn beefs now but like he is very controversial and like there’s people that will go off like negatively in his stuff and positive but

John Jantsch (18:55.493)

Yeah.

Nick Bennett (19:05.68)

He gets so much engagement on every single one of his posts because people know like, Adam’s gonna post something that is gonna like set some people off.

John Jantsch (19:14.842)

Yeah, that’s funny. I often sometimes this can come off as a lame question, but I often like to kind of wrap up interviews with talking about giving you an opportunity to talk about like what’s next? What’s coming? You know, for what’s the future look like?

Nick Bennett (19:28.764)

Yeah, you know, honestly, I should say, you know, I had no intention of ever writing a book when the publisher reached out and was like, hey, you want to write a book? This was a year and a half ago. And I was like, not really. And they convinced me to do it. And I missed so many deadlines. I have three small kids. I have a six year old and 19 month old twin girls. And so I was like,

John Jantsch (19:46.296)

wow.

Nick Bennett (19:50.148)

yeah, you know, I’ll do it. And then I missed multiple deadlines. They canceled the book on me twice. They’re like, you’re not taking this seriously enough. was like, well, hold on. I never wanted to write the book. You guys stepped on trying to push me to do this. And so finally, you know, we’re here and it’s out. like, I will never write another book, at least not like a published book, maybe self-published. they are like, are on you like hawks. And for me, like, you know, tack and just everything that we’re working on, like,

John Jantsch (19:58.798)

Yeah.

Nick Bennett (20:19.888)

I’ll continue to champion the creator economy, but like the broader umbrella of that is people first and how do we get people to think about the company first mindset, which was like the old school way of doing things and moving to more of a human way, which again, creators and influencers plays a huge piece in, but that’ll be everything that kind of, you at least for the next couple of years that I continue to push forward.

John Jantsch (20:43.408)

Well, and I think we’re, you know, I’ve been talking a lot about, think we’ve been, you know, we see change every year, but I think the pace of change increases every year. And I think AI has just thrown gasoline on that, certainly. And so I think that what you’re talking about is I think we’re going to see, I’ve been doing this 30 years, and I think we’re going to see a return to that, you know, people, I mean, that’s, you know, all the control is going to the buyer.

John Jantsch (21:11.59)

in the marketing world and I think that the human connection is going to be more important than ever.

Nick Bennett (21:17.18)

100%. Well, and one more piece to that is like, I’m not saying that you shouldn’t use AI. I use AI every day. Now, it’s going to be, know, so many people, marketers are afraid that AI is going to take their job. No, it’s going to be the marketers that learn how to master AI to use it to do the tasks that they don’t want to do. That’s who’s going to take your job.

John Jantsch (21:34.726)

That’s right.

John Jantsch (21:36.407)

Yeah, yeah. That’s what I tell people all the time. It’s not AI. It’s another marketer who’s just as strategic as you that’s using it. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Nick, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there somewhere you’d invite people to connect with you and find a copy of B2B Influencer Market?

Nick Bennett (21:38.48)

you

Nick Bennett (21:44.323)

Exactly.

Nick Bennett (21:57.338)

Yeah, connect with me on LinkedIn. I post a lot about it there. I have a bunch of links where you can find it on Amazon, Kogan Page, Barnes and Noble, all those websites. So find me on LinkedIn, DM me. Always happy to chat with new people and appreciate you having me.

John Jantsch (22:14.298)

You bet. Again, thanks for taking a few moments and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Nick Bennett (22:19.898)

Absolutely.

Empower Your Team: Learn to Lead Across Differences

Empower Your Team: Learn to Lead Across Differences written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Stephanie Chung

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Stephanie Chung, a bestselling author and transformative leader with over 30 years of experience driving growth and building high-performing teams. Stephanie, a trailblazer in private aviation as the first African American woman to lead a private jet company, shared insights from her book, Ally Leadership: How to Lead People Who Are Not Like You.

Our conversation explored the evolving dynamics of modern workplaces, the importance of building bridges across differences, and actionable strategies leaders can use to foster inclusion and trust. Whether you’re managing diverse teams, navigating generational divides, or seeking tools to lead empathetically, Stephanie’s advice is a game-changer for today’s leaders.

Key Takeaways:

ALLY stands for Ask, Listen, Learn, You Take Action: This framework encourages leaders to foster inclusion through curiosity, empathy, and meaningful action.
Generational and cultural differences require adaptability: Leaders must embrace humility and recognize that managing diverse teams is essential in today’s workplace.
Psychological safety is key to innovation: Creating a safe space for employees to voice ideas and concerns builds trust and drives team success.
Embrace vulnerability as a leader: Acknowledging your own learning curve fosters openness and connection within the team.
Leadership is about connection, not control: Success comes from asking questions, actively listening, and taking purposeful actions to support team members.

Chapters:

[01:03] Who is Stephanie Chung?
[01:40] Introduction to ALLY Leadership
[03:12] Diversity in Leadership: Broadening the Conversation
[05:09] Cultivating Cultural Intelligence and Effective Leadership
[14:21] Overcoming Unconscious Bias Through Human Connection
[20:16] Barriers and Benefits of Leading Diverse Teams
[22:57] Creating a Psychologically Safe Workplace

More About Stephanie Chung:

Ally Leadership: How to Lead People Who Are Not Like You by Stephanie Chung
Check out Stephanie Chung Website
Connect with Stephanie Chung on LinkedIn

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Nobody does data better than Oracle. Train your AI models at twice the speed and less than half of the cost of other clouds. If you want to do more and spend less, take a free test drive at Oracle.

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.142)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Stephanie Chung. She’s a bestselling author, business leader and strategic innovator with over 30 years of experience in driving growth and transforming businesses. She’s a former chief growth officer for Wheels Up and was the first African American to lead a private jet company, JetSuite. She’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today.

Ally leadership, how to lead people who are not like you. So Stephanie, welcome to the show.

Stephanie (00:37.496)

Thanks for having me, John. I’m excited to be here.

John Jantsch (00:40.384)

I suppose, and I typically find myself doing this, getting definitions on the table of terms that are in titles. how would you, if somebody says, I’m hearing a lot about this ally leadership thing, what is that?

Stephanie (00:53.634)

Yeah, so ally is actually an acronym. So it’s a great question, right? So the reason I didn’t write and call the book Allyship is because it’s a little bit different. So ally stands for ask, listen, learn, and you take action.

And the reason why I wrote the book, John, is because at the end of the day, the whole world’s changing, right? And we as leaders have to get on board and realize that the train has left the station and sticking our head in the sand isn’t going to be helpful for any business leader. So when you think of the work climate, right, we’ve got five, soon to be six generations working, which is unheard of. So trying to lead a boomer versus a zoomer can be a challenge all within itself.

John Jantsch (01:12.14)

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie (01:32.994)

So we have the sixth generations working. We have women as the majority of the population. So that changes the dynamics as well. And then we have the ethnic demographics that are shifting, right? So the, you know, ethnic races are growing, non-ethnic race shrinking, not to mention people with different neurodiversities or different, you know, abilities or LGBTQ plus communities. So what leaders have now is an entire workforce of people who are not like each other and not like them.

John Jantsch (02:01.804)

Right, right.

Stephanie (02:02.092)

And so the real goal is how do we lead people who are not like us? And that’s really the point behind ally leadership. The only way you’re gonna be successful is to ask, listen, learn, and then you take action.

John Jantsch (02:14.594)

You know, one of the things I find really fascinating about you writing this book, so applicable, as you just said, to many leadership roles, but we’re so used to this coming from somebody who looked like me, a white male, right? Who is saying, you’re going to work with different generations now. And so I think it’s so fabulous, but also fascinating that it’s coming from an African-American female.

Stephanie (02:28.834)

Yes. Yeah. Right.

Stephanie (02:40.782)

Well, thank you for saying that. Thank you. You have no idea because that is that was that’s actually why I wrote the book, John, because I felt like the entire conversation was, you know, Mr. White guy, you’ve got to figure out how to lead women and people of color. Right. And so so, you know, yes, I addressed that in the book because obviously I can’t, you know, avoid the elephant in the room. But I felt like the conversation needed to go deeper and wider.

John Jantsch (02:52.386)

Right, right.

Stephanie (03:04.856)

The truth of the matter is all of us, it’s not just the white guy, all of us are going to be leading people who are not like them. And so how do you do it successfully? I’ll take myself as an example. You mentioned in my bio, I come from private aviation. That is a male dominated and specifically a white male dominated industry. And yet I’ve been able to reach the highest level. And so I, as an African-American female,

John Jantsch (03:21.346)

Sure.

Stephanie (03:29.89)

was I remember and you know, I opened the book with the story on how I look at the first team I’ve been given. They’re all white men and they’re looking at me like, where’d she come from, right? And I’m looking at them like, boy, right? And so at the end of the day, know, it really isn’t just, you know, white men have to know how to lead everybody. It’s everybody has to know how to lead everybody. I always say the leader of today, John has to know how to lead all God’s children, every race, every creed, every gender. That’s the job.

And so that’s what the book is really designed for, is to hopefully give tools and to help people who find themselves in that predicament as to, here’s what I did really good, here’s what I did horribly wrong, and hopefully those tools can be helpful for them as well.

John Jantsch (04:14.306)

You know, it’s unfortunately a fact of life that a lot of people grow up without a lot of cultural diversity in their life. And so, you know, how do you, how do leaders start gaining that cultural intelligence? It’s like going to another country almost, you know, right? It’s like, I don’t know how to act here, right? So how do they gain that?

Stephanie (04:21.892)

Yeah.

Stephanie (04:30.166)

Yeah. Yeah, well, I think it’s twofold. One, you have to come to grips that you’re going to make a mistake. And I really want people to grab hold of that. It is none of us for, I shouldn’t say none of us, but most of us are not dealing with life or death situations, right? So you’re going to make a mistake. So that’s the very first thing, because what I find, John, and the reason why I open with that is I find that people are so afraid to make a mistake that they do nothing.

John Jantsch (04:38.754)

Yeah. Yes.

Stephanie (04:57.396)

Right and it’s like well if you come to grips with you’re going to make a mistake then that will ease the the the pressure I guess so that when you make the mistake then you’re okay with it because people people will know it’s about your heart It’s I always say this whole thing is a head and heart issue right if someone is and I give a story in the book about a situation that I had 30 years ago with with someone that

was so not like me and I knew that I was gonna walk in and make a bunch of mistakes, right? Because it was just unfamiliar territory for me. But what I find is people who are not like you would much rather feel like they understand that your heart is in the right place. They’d rather you talk to them than not talk to them because you’re afraid of making the mistake. So how to answer your question, how do you actually go about it?

John Jantsch (05:38.114)

This

Stephanie (05:47.188)

One, get your mindset right. I’m going to make a mistake and nobody’s going to die in this process, right? The second part is, then you come at it with a heart, which is curiosity versus dictating, right? Because nobody wants to hear your opinion on how you see the world when you don’t even understand their world.

Right? And that’s usually the biggest adjustment, especially we as leaders have to make. Nobody cares about your thoughts. What we care about is you actually trying to ask questions, not with the understanding of I’m trying to ask so that I can seem like I care. No, no, you really have to humble yourself and understand that this person’s world is completely different than mine. I don’t have enough education to start dictating to them how they should be running their life.

but I can ask questions out of sheer curiosity and truly listen. And one of the things I like to have people realize is you don’t have to have all the answers. You don’t even have to have all the questions. Just start off asking the basic questions like, know, how are you? Tell me a little bit about your upbringing, your childhood, et cetera. That will then guide you with the next set of questions. Again, I think because people are so afraid and let’s face it, society also hasn’t been very graceful.

Right? People make a mistake and society cancels people and then people are afraid to make a move because they’re afraid of being socially slaughtered or canceled. So everybody has to adjust. It’s not just the leader. The whole world has to adjust. The world is different. And if we can give each other some grace and come at it through a head and heart perspective, then we’re not that far off because we actually have much more in common than we do apart. So the easiest way to do it is ask questions, listen.

John Jantsch (07:01.055)

Mm-hmm. Peace.

John Jantsch (07:07.542)

Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie (07:28.396)

learn and decide to ask more questions. And then use your privilege, because we all have it, right? It’s not just white people having privilege. Everybody’s got privilege. So use it whenever you can to help the other person that you’re in charge of leading.

John Jantsch (07:30.146)

Okay.

John Jantsch (07:42.262)

I suspect from the leader, a large amount of vulnerability, especially early on, has to be there too, right? I mean, to say, like in your case, you walked in, I’ve never worked with a team of all white guys. know, right? Almost like acknowledge that, right? Up front, and I’m going to make mistakes. I think that probably goes a long way to at least getting some grace in the beginning, doesn’t it?

Stephanie (07:54.968)

Yeah, right, Yep.

Stephanie (08:03.908)

Exactly. And even when we think if we go even one step further, because I know a lot of your audience are small business owners, right? One of the best things that we can do when trying to solve a problem, I used to this with my teams and I sold, you know, oversaw billion dollar sales teams. Very first thing I would do is sit down with them and go in front of a whiteboard and say, OK, listen, guys, here’s what we’re being asked to do. And I could really use your help on how you think we should do it.

Right, so when you talk about humbling yourself, it’s true in every aspect of leadership. If you really want to be an effective leader, you really have to know how to eat humble pie as your specialty, right? Because then people realize like, no one is expecting you to have all the answers. That’s true in business. It’s also true in leadership.

John Jantsch (08:31.81)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:40.097)

Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie (08:47.234)

And so when you’re leading people who are not like you, no one’s expecting, especially the person who’s not like you, they’re not expecting you to know everything about their lifestyle. They’re not expecting you to be familiar with the little nuances that there’s no way you would know. What they are expecting of you is that you would ask, listen, learn, and then you would take action. And the reason why I keep driving that take action home, is because you can’t call yourself an ally.

Like this isn’t a trophy, right? A participation trophy. You cannot call yourself an ally. Somebody else can call you an ally, but you can’t call yourself an ally. And the only, like, just like I can’t call myself a nice person. Like you can go, you know what, met Stephanie, she’s a nice person. But I can’t go, you know what, I’m a nice person. Like based on what, right? So same is true for ally. You know, you, you, when you take action, people will see it and then they will say, you’re an ally.

If they don’t see it, they’re not gonna say it. And just because you said it doesn’t make it true.

John Jantsch (09:46.764)

Yeah. So is there an example of kind of a challenging moment that you had that you think really not only tested your ability, but maybe kind of informed some of what shows up in the book?

Stephanie (10:00.3)

Yeah, there’s a story. It seems like it’s everybody’s favorite story. So I won’t go too far into it because I won’t spoil it for your listeners. But I tell a story about I was asked to meet with a person because at the time I was in the cosmetic industry and this friend of mine who was a behavioral specialist had asked if I would meet with one of her patients. And I was like, sure, know, no problem because the patient had a desire to get into the makeup cosmetic industry. And so I just want to pick my brain.

So once I said yes, then she shared with me that this person was transgender. Now this was 30 years ago, John. So I honestly had never heard the word, right? I didn’t know anything about transgender. I didn’t know what it meant. Like I just didn’t know. And so once she told me that and I said yes, then I told her,

teach me, educate me, like what does this actually mean mentally, physically, you know, the whole thing, right? I need to be armed so that I don’t look like a complete idiot right now in this luncheon. And so she did her best. But what was interesting, and I tell this story from several different perspectives, what was interesting is when I had that meeting at the restaurant with the transgender person.

John Jantsch (10:57.303)

Yeah

Stephanie (11:11.78)

And I tell the story from my perspective sitting there, from the restaurant attendees perspective sitting there, because again, this was 30 years ago, it wasn’t like recently, right? And just every single role that happened as you’re looking at someone, in my case, as a person who’s not like me. Now, I’m used to walking into a restaurant and maybe being the only woman or being the only black person or what have you. So I understand the dynamics that go on there. But what I saw and witnessed from

their, you know, from what the dynamics were for them walking in the room was very, very different. Something I’d never seen before. And so that’s an example. And again, I won’t go really deep into the story because I spent a lot of time on this story because I know that everybody who reads the book can find themselves in that restaurant scene. I never give, you know, direction as to what’s right, what’s wrong. That’s not for me to do. But what it does do is I promise you, when you read the book, you’re going to find yourself in one of those settings.

either as the wait staff or the person sitting in the restaurant or the person sitting across the person or and and you will find yourself there and Literally probably have a moment of like wow because I in the chapter with what would you have done? Right. So yeah, this book is for making people think John

John Jantsch (12:23.892)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Awesome.

So, unfortunately, we know there are a percentage of people that are biased and bigoted. I mean, they’re just there. However, there are a lot of really well-intentioned people that have pretty deep, unconscious biases. They don’t mean to have them. They don’t mean to have them show up the way they show up. how do people, especially this leader that you’re talking about, how do you get people to start recognizing and overcoming those?

Stephanie (12:36.824)

Yeah, that’s how it is. Yep.

Stephanie (12:45.656)

Sure. Yep.

Stephanie (12:55.692)

Yeah, that’s such a great question because what I love is that you started with the fact that we all have it. There is nobody, nobody that doesn’t have it. one of the best ways to get over it is to, once you realize, okay, I’ve got it, is just to realize I have to, I’ve been programmed to see people a certain way.

Period, right? Doesn’t mean it’s right or wrong. It’s just what I’ve been programmed. And I do spend some time in the book talking about the science behind unconscious and conscious bias, because it really does start, again, I go as a head and heart issue, right? The brain is gonna do what it finds the easiest thing to do. And so the brain will, if it sees something that’s not familiar or not like it, right, for part of it, sometimes bias is actually a good thing, believe it or not, because there’s a safety mechanism part of that as well.

Now, when it gets becoming bad is when you’re judging everybody and of clumping them in there and you’re in group or out group with absolutely no conversation to be had or because you’ve read something and you’ve never actually met a person like that. So the very first thing that we have to do is to realize that we all got it. The second thing you have to do is really to over to because our default system is to automatically put people whenever we meet them and we can just be looking at a picture of them. We don’t have to physically be having a conversation.

Our brain will put them in an in-group or out-group. First thing it does, it’s an instinct that you can’t change, right? Those are from our caveman days. And again, there is safety in that. However, what you can change is to override that default system. And how you override it is by making the unfamiliar familiar. And the only way you make the unfamiliar familiar is to literally step out of your comfort zone. Simple stuff you can do, right? Go into a neighborhood that you’re not used to going to.

You know, and usually in different neighborhoods, they have museums that are there. They have different restaurants. They have different cultural activities that you can do, galleries, et cetera. You must take the bull by the horns. You will not get culturally fluent sitting on your couch or hanging out in your same neighborhood with your same people, working the same job, having the same conversation. That’s not how it works. But if you’re serious about this, and I hope that every leader is, because again, world’s changing. Train has left the…

John Jantsch (14:55.19)

questions.

Stephanie (15:10.936)

building. Either you’re going to jump on board or you’re going to be left behind. Those are your two options. But if you’re that person who says, okay, I realize I don’t know everything and nor do I need to, I’m going to make that effort. So now what I’m going to do is, you if I have a neighbor that maybe I’ve never spent time talking to, maybe have them over for coffee and get to know them and ask them questions. Or you don’t want to do that. Go to a neighborhood that you’ve never really spent a whole lot of time through. You know where it is.

go in there, go to the museum, go to the local small business, talk, shop, ask questions. All of that is just mechanisms that will help you get more familiar so that when your brain meets somebody who’s not like you, it doesn’t automatically stick it in the out group. But now that person becomes a little bit more familiar. Or at least people who fall under that category. It’s simple things. And the reason why I keep making it really, like do step one, step two, step three.

is because I feel like part of the problem that we’ve got in society, John, is people feel like this is this big, grandiose situation. And because the bigger it gets, the more overwhelming it gets, and the more scarier it gets, and the less we do. But if I just say to you, listen, you’re going to make mistakes, accept that, right? And then make those little steps here and there, you’re going to feel like, OK, all right, I’ve got permission. And what I will tell you, especially as a person of color,

John Jantsch (16:21.771)

Yes.

Eh.

Stephanie (16:31.126)

You know, you can tell when people are coming and asking you questions because they really do want to know versus they’re asking you questions because they’re trying to trap you or get you, you know, put your defenses or trigger you or gaslight you, whatever. Everybody knows. Right. So if your head and your heart is in the right place, you would be so surprised on how welcoming people would be to actually have that conversation with you.

John Jantsch (16:53.196)

Yeah. So I guess if talking about going to that neighborhood, if you really want the MBA, like the crash course, go to the beauty salon, right? Or the barbershop. So, you know, it’s interesting. Obviously, I know where you’re going with, you know, lead people who are not like you. But really, nobody’s like me. Right. And so, and so some of the practices you’re talking about really are just human

Stephanie (17:00.78)

Yeah, right? Or the barbershop, right? Exactly.

Stephanie (17:14.754)

Yes. Yep. Exactly,

John Jantsch (17:23.266)

contact practices aren’t.

Stephanie (17:24.772)

100%. It’s all about human connection, right? And as leaders or small business owners, we’re in the people business, period. And people, really, we were designed, we were created for human connection. We are best when we’re connected. If you look on the news, there’s always that story that we all hate, but at the end of the day, the core is they didn’t have anybody that they were connected to.

John Jantsch (17:48.758)

Yeah.

Stephanie (17:48.76)

Right? And so human connection is really why we were created. So what my whole focus with the book is to really drive home the point that you just said. None of us are alike. Right? I mean, we are wonderfully made. You know, we’re unique in so many different ways. And so and that is if you if you start there, then then automatically it makes you realize also that people are not better or worse than you.

Right? because sometimes that’s the issue as well. If you feel like you’re better than other people, then you’re going to treat them a certain way. But if you realize that you’re no better than everybody else, right? We’re all wonderfully made. Then that allows you to come into the conversation with a different heart stance, which then allows the person who you’re speaking to to receive you a certain way as well.

John Jantsch (18:35.82)

So what are some of the barriers that, you know, we always have to drag out, like, here’s the hard part. What are some of the barriers that you’ve seen have really prevented leaders from truly embracing this approach?

Stephanie (18:42.606)

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie (18:48.426)

Usually it’s when they make a mistake, they may have said something wrong or come off the wrong way, and then all of a sudden they’re chastised. And then that kind of scathing review makes them never want to do it again. So that’s usually what I’ve seen. The flip side though, because we do talk a lot, especially in our country, about inclusivity and things of that nature.

John Jantsch (18:52.791)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (19:00.001)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (19:10.518)

Mm-hmm.

Stephanie (19:11.64)

What we don’t really talk about the fact that leading diverse teams actually can be very challenging. And it’s not because the team is diverse, right? A diverse team, there’s enough statistics out there, diverse teams simply perform better. So from a sheer business perspective, it just makes good business sense to create a team of all-stars versus, you know, just like in sports, right? Nobody’s gonna have a basketball team with all forwards.

Right? Like you’re never going to win. So you have to have a team where everybody plays a different position, has a different gift, talent, et cetera. And that then means that the team has to, by default, be diverse. Because people think of diversity as far as just race, diversity in communication, diversity of how they think, diversity of perspective. mean, diversity is a big word that covers a lot of things. So that’s the first thing. But that’s usually what happens is people feel like they’ve made a mistake. And so that’s what stops them in their tracks.

John Jantsch (19:34.23)

Right, right.

Stephanie (20:03.064)

But the flip side is what I would say is yes, leading a diverse team can be hard, not because of the team, but because you’ve got to make sure that you’re letting everybody speak their piece and how they may speak their piece because how they see the world may be very, very different.

So as a leader, you gotta have like real leadership skills, right? To make sure that you can manage those conversations and the differences that will come from it and the different perspectives because that’s the secret sauce and how you get a different, more powerful result, right? But you as a leader have to check yourself. If you’re kind of an okay leader, this is gonna be tough, right? But if you’re a real leader that is very strong in communication and bringing out the best in people and you’re secure enough.

John Jantsch (20:32.322)

you

Stephanie (20:46.286)

to be able to allow people to challenge each other or even challenge your thought process. Now you’ve got a team that is unstoppable because if you get a bunch of people presented and focused on a common cause, literally will live, like they will not be stopped. But that’s the job of the leader. What are we doing? Why are we doing it? And what is it the role that you play as to how this business is successful?

John Jantsch (21:09.426)

It’s funny you talk about that diversity. I’ve always contended the best marriages are very diverse. Individuals, right? And the best partnerships in business. People bring a whole different side of it. How does a leader create a safe place for employees, psychologically safe place for employees, given what you’ve been talking about?

Stephanie (21:14.048)

Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes.

I love that. I love that.

Stephanie (21:30.648)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The easiest way to do it literally is that when people voice their opinion, you almost want to create healthy confrontation, right? And so how you do that is, you I used to have one of the best CEOs I ever worked for. He mastered this. He had come over, taken over the organization.

And what he realized very quickly is that the team got along to get along, right? So there was, know, and if anybody didn’t agree, then instead of bringing it up in the middle of that executive meeting, they would then not say anything. And then the meeting’s over and we know the type, right? And then they go to the water cooler and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, So it drove him crazy. And that was just a dysfunction of how the team was used to operate.

John Jantsch (22:09.814)

Yep, yep, yep.

Stephanie (22:14.532)

because the environment wasn’t as such where you could actually voice the fact that you maybe didn’t agree with, you know, your colleague or what have you. So one of the very first things that he did, and it’s funny, I used to watch him do that, and then every company I’ve ever overseen, I’ve done the same thing, where he would try to get us to break that dysfunctional habit, right? And the way that he would do it is I would say he’d drop a grenade in the middle of the, get us all worked up, and then he’d leave.

Now we’re all, you know, crazy and we’ve got to like work it out because we’ve got to come to some kind of consensus. and that’s one way that leaders can do it at the beginning. It feels a little uncomfortable, both for the team and for the leader, because you’re almost stirring up stuff. Right. But I’d much rather have a team that is like, you know, disagreeing in a respectful way, but at the end of the day can all get on board. And when we walk off the doors, we’re all in unison. That’s the goal.

right? But you really as leaders running companies or teams or divisions, the whole point is that you must hear all the different perspectives. That’s how you’re going to be get a competitive advantage out there. And so if you don’t allow people to do that, then you know, the emperor has no clothes, right? We’re all seeing they’re going, yes, it’s all it’s a wonderful product. This new thing you’ve created. In the meantime, people are thinking this is this.

Sucks, right? This product never going to get off the ground and nobody feels like they’re safe enough to be able to say it. So how you create safe psychological safety within a workplace is to literally get people comfortable with the uncomfortable conversations. And a lot of times as leaders, we actually have to start that because they won’t do it naturally. So we kind of have to start it by saying, well, you know what, John, know that Stephanie said this, but you know, looks like the look on your face says that you disagree. Tell me more.

right? And then force you to say, well, the reason, you know, and you’re going to, you’re going to tip toe around it at the beginning. Well, it’s not that I don’t disagree. It’s just, think there’s another way to do it. Great. Well, tell me more. Right. And so you’re going to keep forcing people to get to that point where they, can, you can watch them. They’re feeling uncomfortable saying it. They’re like, well, I just don’t think her idea is good. Great. Well, tell me why. What’s your idea? What can, how can we do this better? Right. So just forcing those conversations. Once people realize that when they do it and they say it,

John Jantsch (24:25.995)

Yes.

Stephanie (24:37.314)

and nothing bad happens to them, the next meeting they’re more likely to do it. And then the next meeting they’re more likely to do it. And that’s how we change the culture.

John Jantsch (24:46.114)

And it’s funny. I feel like when people are in a room together, we’re a little more guarded about our body language. People are so easy to detect on Zoom, right? Because we think, nobody’s actually here with me, you know, so I can roll my eyes and nobody will know. It’s funny. Well, Stephanie, it was so great having you stop by the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you and find out more about how to lead people who are not like you?

Stephanie (24:56.514)

Yes, exactly. Right. So true.

Thank you.

Stephanie (25:14.588)

Absolutely. They are welcome to come onto my website, StephanieChung.com, or I’m on all the socials, LinkedIn, TikTok, Instagram, at the Stephanie Chung. But StephanieChung.com is probably the quickest way to get to me and that. And yeah, for those of you that are leading out there, I hope this book will serve as a tool to help you have the best team so you can get the best results.

John Jantsch (25:36.13)

Well, again, thanks for stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Stephanie (25:40.58)

I love it. Thanks so much for having me, John. Bye bye now.

John Jantsch (25:43.532)

Ha.

Why Most Goals Fail (And How to Beat the Odds)

Why Most Goals Fail (And How to Beat the Odds) written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Jon Acuff

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Jon Acuff, a New York Times bestselling author of nine books, including All It Takes Is A Goal. Known for his humor and actionable insights, Jon has addressed audiences worldwide, from Microsoft to FedEx, helping people unlock their potential and achieve lasting success.

Our conversation dives deep into the pitfalls of goal setting, the common reasons people abandon their goals, and the proven strategies to overcome these challenges. Whether you’re struggling to take the first step or sustain momentum, Jon’s practical tips will inspire you to set achievable goals and make steady progress.

Key Takeaways:

Break your goals into manageable steps using the “goal ladder” approach, which includes easy, middle, and guaranteed goals.
Use regret as a tool for learning and growth. Bad regret traps you in the past, while good regret motivates action and change.
Don’t get stuck waiting for a perfect, 20-year vision. Instead, focus on small actions that build momentum today.
Goals without dedicated time are just dreams. Assign specific time blocks to your goals for realistic progress.
Whether visual, auditory, or community-driven, identify and leverage the motivational tools that work best for you.
Balance big-picture aspirations with realistic, actionable steps to avoid feeling overwhelmed.
Learn from setbacks and adapt. Each failure provides valuable insights for future success

Chapters:

[01:02] Who is Jon Acuff?
[03:36] Unique Approach to Goal Setting
[05:11] Understanding and Utilizing Regret for Positive Change
[07:07] Building Achievable Goals and Addressing Unequal Opportunities
[10:39] Balancing Aspirational and Realistic Goals
[14:58] Prioritizing Goals and Embracing Failure for Success
[18:56] Overcoming Fear of Success and Learning from Failure

More About Jon Acuff:

All It Takes Is a Goal: The 3-Step Plan to Ditch Regret and Tap Into Your Massive Potential by Jon Acuff
Check out Jon Acuff’s Website
Connect with Jon Acuff on Instagram

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Nobody does data better than Oracle. Train your AI models at twice the speed and less than half of the cost of other clouds. If you want to do more and spend less, take a free test drive at Oracle.

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.277)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Jon Acuff. He’s a New York Times bestselling author of nine books, including his most recent, All It Takes Is A Goal, the three-step plan to ditch regret and tap into your massive potential. Translated into over 20 languages, Acuff’s work is both critically acclaimed and beloved by readers. He’s a top leadership speaker named by Inc.

And he has addressed audiences worldwide, including FedEx, Microsoft, and Chick-fil-A, known for blending humor. With insight, he once opened for Dolly Parton at the Ryman Auditorium. So John, welcome to the show.

Jon Acuff (00:41.378)

Thanks for having me, John. Looking forward to it.

John Jantsch (00:43.089)

Should we blow little time hearing that story? It’s in your bio. Yeah.

Jon Acuff (00:46.392)

The Dolly Parton story? Yeah. That happened like most of those things happen via my dentist, obviously. I go to what I say, the dentist to the stars and Jon Acuff. So famous people go there and also me. And he said one night, he was like, Hey, I’ve got a charity event at the Ryman. Would you be willing to open for Dolly Parton? And I said, I guess, guess I can do that. So I did 20 minutes of comedy, just straight comedy. The audience was dentists. had some.

John Jantsch (00:51.867)

ha ha ha!

John Jantsch (00:57.139)

Okay. All right. All right.

Jon Acuff (01:16.076)

killer mouth jokes that would not be funny if I told them to do right now. And I met Dolly, she did a 75 minute show that started at like 9 PM. She’s unbelievable. She’s everything you hope. You know, they always say never meet your heroes, but definitely meet Dolly Parton. I would have that photo of us on my driver’s license if the DMV weren’t such jerks.

John Jantsch (01:20.679)

Ha ha!

Wow.

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:29.821)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:35.027)

Yeah, I a, I can’t remember what it was. of it was a series of podcasts, but it was a serial where somehow the person met and ended up like doing all these interviews with Dolly Parton. He turned it into almost a book length podcast and it was so good. It was so good. Yeah.

Jon Acuff (01:49.804)

yeah, I heard it was great. Yeah, yeah. I don’t know any. It’s like, there’s only three people in America. Nobody hates. It’s like Dolly Denzel and Tom Hanks. think like it’s hard to find somebody who’s like that Tom Hanks. I hate his stupid face. I think they’re universally loved.

John Jantsch (01:58.003)

Yeah. Well, I, my like opening for joke was, I actually used to talk about, the fact that Bill Cosby opened for me. Now, technically he was the closing speaker at an event and I happened to be the next morning’s opening speaker, but

Jon Acuff (02:20.405)

yeah, that counts. I’ve counted month distance. Totally same arena, that counts.

John Jantsch (02:24.923)

However, that joke hasn’t held up as well. I don’t use it as much anymore. Yeah, I have. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does. So let’s just start with the obvious. Put you on like the defense right off the bat. Does the world need another book on gold setting? I mean, there are a few of them out there. So what, what in your mind said, yeah, I’ve got like something that hasn’t been written before.

Jon Acuff (02:26.892)

Nah, dude, you’re gonna wanna retire that one. You’re gonna wanna, that one has, yeah, that one has a different feel in this current year.

Jon Acuff (02:43.64)

Sure.

Jon Acuff (02:48.824)

Yeah.

Jon Acuff (02:55.34)

That’s a great question. well, habits had already been done. mean, James Clear wrote Atomic Habits. If you ever write a book about habits, God bless you that that one’s been done. No, for me, what, what I felt like was missing in a lot of goal setting books was how easy the initial goals should be. I think our culture does a really big job of going go big or go home. And what happens is people usually go home. And so I was teaching goal setting techniques for

John Jantsch (02:58.991)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (03:14.481)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (03:18.536)

Yeah, yeah.

Jon Acuff (03:24.642)

five or six years to real folks accomplishing real things and felt like that was a big part of what was missing is, okay, how do you, you know, how do you do that? And then the second thing I thought was missing was that a lot of goal setting books, their first step is come up with a 20 year vision for your life. Like, and we’ve misinterpreted Stephen Covey’s begin with the end in mind into if you don’t know the end, you can’t begin. And so I kept seeing people.

John Jantsch (03:41.586)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:47.965)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jon Acuff (03:49.812)

run into what I call as a vision wall. And so I wanted to write a goal setting book that started from the past, meaning the first thing it did was say, what are the things that have lit you up over the last five years, the last 10 years? What are the clues? Because most people go, don’t look backward. You’re not going that direction. And we leave all this real learning about who we really are and what really fires us up. So I wanted to redeem your past to provide clues to your present and build your future.

John Jantsch (04:15.997)

So the word regret in the title is a tough word for some people. mean, there’s certainly people look at it as a negative, but there’s a school of thought. think Dan Pink actually had a book recently that kind of talks about, no, you learn from that. There’s like good regret or there’s no regret. I don’t know which there is. So how do you help people distinguish between the, you you can learn from regret as opposed to just saying every mistake I made was regret.

Jon Acuff (04:20.312)

Yeah.

Jon Acuff (04:26.264)

Yeah, whole book on it.

Jon Acuff (04:42.616)

Yeah, I I guess for me, it always comes down to, well, so what did you do with it? What was the action that came out of that? And so I think a really simple test is bad regret is something that doesn’t lead to change. It just leads to more bad regret. Like you get stuck in that loop. Good regret, think by nature leads to change. You go, I regretted the way I said that. I’m not going to say that kind of thing again. Here’s what I’m going to practice to make sure I don’t say that kind of thing again. Here’s the, you know, I made this mistake.

And so, yeah, for me, that’s what I meant. I think a lot of times with regret, we go back to our past and hope there’s a single thing we can find that will change the rest of our lives. And we have this kind of misinterpreted version of counseling sometimes, like maybe there’s something that happened to you at six. And once you unlock that, you’ll be a completely different human going forward. And I think there is benefit to going, yeah, I had this challenge and I’ve, and I needed to process it, but

Sometimes where I see people get stuck with regret is it’s like if you visited the same beach town every summer for 20 summers in a row, you’d know that beach town so well. And they visit the same story 20 years in a row and they keep giving it more power, more power, more power, more power versus going, yeah, that was a thing that happened. I can’t change that. can change tomorrow. So I’m going to give more of my time, more of my energy to that. What does that look like? And so, yeah, I would say.

For me, it’s how fast can I turn it into action for my future versus rumination about the past.

John Jantsch (06:12.499)

Can you, and we can talk about the individual ones, can you just kind of quickly, what’s the three-step plan?

Jon Acuff (06:17.9)

Yeah. So the three steps are essentially you build what I would call as a goal ladder. Most people have a hard time with goals because they have a 12 foot tall ladder that only has two rungs. The top rung says final step and the bottom rung says first day. And the final step could be make a million dollars, lose 50 pounds. First day says, you know, get your LLC or buy sneakers. And there’s a huge gap between there you go, I can’t get to the top that way. And so the three steps are you build easy goals, you build middle goals and you build guaranteed goals.

essentially adding rungs to your entire ladder so that you have a rung every six inches so that it’s a really simple ladder to climb. So those are the three steps.

John Jantsch (06:55.729)

One thing I think we ought to address, and I don’t think a lot of gold setting books do, is that the fact of life is that there are people, I count myself as one, I had access to a lot of resources. I had privilege growing up and there are a lot of people that don’t, I mean, that want to take themselves out of the situation they have and don’t have some of the things that other people have. How do you talk about that person that’s like,

And again, I know people can use that as an excuse because we’ve all seen people that have risen from abject poverty, you know, to like, incredible, know, achieving incredible goals. But how do you address that just when you’re talking to the normal person out there that there are definitely differences in opportunities that people have.

Jon Acuff (07:42.936)

Yeah, I try to talk it to the individual person. I can’t talk to global people. I can talk to individual readers. So where I see people get stuck there is if I go, man, I think you’d feel great if you walked around your neighborhood today. And then they push back and go, well, not everybody has a safe neighborhood. Okay, well, let’s pull the thread on that. So are you saying until everybody has a safe neighborhood, you can’t walk in your neighborhood? How will you know? Will the government email you and say, hey, we did it.

John Jantsch (07:48.563)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:06.323)

Yeah.

Jon Acuff (08:10.316)

We did it. Everybody has the same exact safe neighborhood. Now you can go take a walk. I had a friend, Chip Dodd, he’s a PhD say, we suffer from global co-dependence. When you say not everybody had the same opportunity, you’re saying I’m dependent on them having the same opportunity before I changed my life. So in a situation like that, I’d say to somebody, hey, I think this could be beneficial. And if they said, well, I don’t have those same opportunities, I would say, well, which ones do you have? Let’s talk about you as an individual. If they said,

Hey, John, there’s a lot of people that can’t do that. I’d go, well, what are their names? And more than likely they go, well, I don’t really know any. just know that like the world and I’ll go, okay, well, like, is it a friend? Let’s talk about your, your friend doesn’t have that opportunity. Let’s help them fix their specific problem. I just think that, yeah, life is certainly like, life is certainly not equal. but I think it comes down to going, what can you do with what you have versus like, I don’t like.

Take for me, for instance, I was never going to be in the NBA. I’m at my height at five seven. There’s five people in the history of the NBA that have played at my height. Like, so I can’t go like, man, it’s, it’s crazy that Steph Curry gets to play in the NBA and I don’t like, didn’t get the same opportunities. Like yeah, height wasn’t one of my opportunities. And in some ways it encouraged me to develop a sense of humor because I wasn’t going to be the tall, confident kid in the seventh grader because I was not tall and confident. So I thought.

And I’ve had to develop a little bit of survival skills in my middle school and maybe personality be one of them. So I always try to get it back to the individual because I think there are people, know, everybody gets a different set of opportunities and it depends on what you do with them.

John Jantsch (09:52.755)

So you started talking about the, one of the challenges people have is that they set these impossible goals for, or they think, you know, that’s not big enough. How do you kind of keep people keep a perspective on that tension? You know, that like what’s aspirational, what would put, mean, because a goal should push you a little bit probably, right? But also some people, you know, set something so big that they can’t take the first step.

Jon Acuff (10:13.282)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jon Acuff (10:21.346)

Yeah. So you do need both. like, you need the aspiration to get you started. You need the small goal to keep you going. So nobody gets excited. know, John, I know, and you know, if somebody wants to write a 50,000 word book, the first thing they have to do is write the first 100 words and the next 200 words. But that’s so boring. If you say to somebody, you’re going to get to write a hundred whole words, that doesn’t get anybody to the desk. You want to paint for them this big picture of like,

The book is on a shelf, you’re holding it in your hand. It’s been translated into Italian. You’re at a book signing. You need the aspiration to be inspired, but then you have to break it down at the daily steps. So it’s really a dance of both in that sense. And so for me, one of the fastest ways to do that is to deal in terms of time. Like I get to time so fast with people. Most people’s goal is divorce from their calendar and you never accomplish a goal if that’s how you’re living. And so one of the things I do, which is not

necessarily fun right out of the gate is if somebody’s serious about a goal, go, all right, let’s do a quick time gap analysis. Like let’s add up the hours that your new goal is going to take. And most people that read my types of books and listen to your podcast have more goals than they need. The average person I did a study had 22.8 goals. Your listeners feel overwhelmed because they should feel overwhelmed. They’re juggling 22 balls at a time. So I’ll go, let’s put an hour with it. And they’ll usually go, okay, it’s 22 hours of goals. And I go, okay, how many hours of free time do you have in your week?

John Jantsch (11:41.651)

Yes.

Jon Acuff (11:49.314)

this week and then go free time. What? I’m very busy. I have zero. Okay. You have a new goal system that costs 22 hours. You have a calendar that accepts zero hours. You’re just going to get into a fight constantly. So I’ll always try to get them to like make friends with reality. The problem is with goals is you dream and then you plan and dreaming is based on optimism and planning is based on realism. And a lot of people have a hard time making that transition. And so I try to help them ease that transition.

from I’ve got a big, crazy, amazing goal. I dreamed with unfettered limitations and now I want to actually bring it into the real world. How do I do that in a way that is still encouraging? But it also does stretch me. And so that’s always, it’s definitely a dance and it’s why most goals fail. 92 % of all new year’s resolutions according to the University of Scranton fail. Strava did a study of 800 million athletic activities. Biggest fitness tracking up in the world.

John Jantsch (12:26.611)

Okay.

Jon Acuff (12:46.604)

The biggest drop off day they saw was the second Friday in January. So let’s not, let’s not sugar coat that like, if you have a goal, it magically happens. It doesn’t, but man, is it worth it? Like, man, is it worth it?

John Jantsch (12:49.203)

you

John Jantsch (12:53.321)

Yeah,

John Jantsch (12:58.851)

You know, one of the things that I suspect most people, most listeners have, can think back in their life and have seen is that like, I know that if I make something a priority, it’s going to happen. If I wish that something happens, it’s probably not, I’ll fill up my calendar with other stuff. But when, you know, the one everybody always relates to is, know, on April 14th, if I haven’t filed my taxes, all of sudden I got time to figure that out. Right?

Jon Acuff (13:26.68)

Yeah, yeah, I’m motivated, I’m motivated, yeah.

John Jantsch (13:28.115)

Right. And, and I think that that’s true. Probably that, that idea of getting the right, like making something a real priority is the only way you’re going to make it happen.

Jon Acuff (13:39.106)

Yeah, I mean, and you have to figure out what that means to you. Some people are people motivated. So some people are really helped when they have another person who’s holding their feet to the fire. Yeah. And you go, okay, great. Some people are, you know, visually motivated. They need to do that exercise where they cut out the pictures from the magazine and they can envision it. Some of them are, you know, audio motivated where they, they need the Eminem song kicking them off at the gym and they’re going to lose themselves.

So it’s really about figuring out what are the tools you need to get it done? Like what is your kind of set of tools? And for me, I throw thousands of tools at my goals. Like I really, you know, I’ve, now written 10 books. Like this year I will have run 650 miles and walked 450 miles. I read a hundred books a year and there’s people that’ll go, man, that’s a lot.

That feels like a lot. always think, yeah, I want a lot out of life. It is a lot. Like I want a whole, I want to make a lot of money and help a lot of people and, and run a lot of miles, but I just use a lot of tools that make that easy and fun. And I’m always figuring that out and I’m always dialing that in. And you’ve seen the same thing. Like if you spend time with successful people, they’re never accidental. Like nothing in life gets awesome accidentally. I’ve never met somebody who accidentally got in shape.

John Jantsch (14:51.378)

Yeah.

Jon Acuff (14:56.898)

who said, yeah, I was just binge watching Netflix. Next thing you knew, I was doing burpees in the living room. I don’t even remember getting off the couch. I’ve never met somebody who had an awesome marriage accidentally or had an awesome business accidentally. They’re always intentional and they’re very intentional about how they stay motivated to actually commit to the goal.

John Jantsch (15:16.467)

Yeah. And I think another thing is, you know, when you see that person, that you think, wow, look at the level of success, know, you should go back and listen to my first podcast, go back and listen to my first speech, go back and read my first article I wrote.

Jon Acuff (15:28.63)

yeah, dude. Yeah. Brutal. Brutal. My wife still like, so I’ve been public speaking for probably 15, 16 years now. My wife still doesn’t really enjoy to go to my events because she still has PTSD from my first couple of events. She would come and sit there and just watch me. Like it was a suffer fest for me and the audience. And that’s part of it. And so…

That’s the other thing is that we often don’t get to see that process. And I think that’s what people relate to with you is that you share, you share the process. Like entrepreneurs that share the process, are honest and vulnerable and go, yeah, this thing blew it. Like I wrote a book once and the, was, this was a literary magazine that reviewed it. And their last sentence was, you can essentially, you can tell John’s passionate, but ultimately this reads like a pamphlet that got stretched into a book.

That’s every writer’s nightmare that like somebody goes, this could have been a pamphlet. And, but at the same time, I’m like, what’s the trade-off that I wouldn’t have done that? Like, and I didn’t get a book out and then think about, think about, okay, if your first episode stinks, what’s the trade-off? You, you want the episodes to get worse? Of course not. You want to look back and go, wow, I’ve gotten better. Like that’s what you want. And so if you remember that you’re willing to do the work of being like, yeah, dude, that one was rough.

Or like, wow, the crowd didn’t connect on that. like, I wrote that book and it just did not, I’ve written books that didn’t sell and it’s a public failure. And that’s not, that’s not fun, but that’s part of writing a book that does sell.

John Jantsch (17:04.487)

Yes, absolutely. Well, I’ve read research on, and this isn’t everybody, but there’s certainly people out there that are actually afraid of success. It’s like, what’s going to happen to me? What’s going to happen to my family if I succeed? mean, how do you get people kind of past that barrier if it exists?

Jon Acuff (17:14.795)

yeah.

Jon Acuff (17:23.17)

What depends on what, you know, the cause of their, so it seems like when it comes to a fear of success, there’s like, there’s a couple versions of it. There’s, I can’t be more successful than what I grew up with is an acceptable amount of success. So I can’t make more money than my dad. I can’t make more money than the town I grew up in. there’s also, if I get successful, life will get harder and more complicated. So that is what I call Mo Money Mo Problem Syndrome. The idea that if I make more money, life’s going to get harder and more stressful.

John Jantsch (17:36.595)

Yeah, right, right, right, Yep.

Jon Acuff (17:52.664)

But I’ll tell you, I’ve had no money before and it didn’t make life easier. It didn’t make the problems simpler. or it’s, know, okay, if I get successful, people expect me to be successful every time. Some people like to surprise people. They’re afraid to have expectations. So they’d rather you have no expectations and they show up and then they exceed them. So it depends on which variety of that you have.

John Jantsch (17:57.075)

You’re right. Yep. Right.

Jon Acuff (18:17.868)

But for me, it’s, go, you’re going to have to raise your level of what’s an acceptable amount of success. And one of the ways you do that is in community. So you and I, where we connected was a community of very successful authors. And I can’t speak for your level of success. I was not the most successful person that room by a long shot. And, but being around them, I go, wow. This person, that’s how they did it. They seem like they really love their family. They seem like their life is really fun and they have a level of success.

that I thought came with a lot of complications or maybe like I have this broken soundtrack that says, if you get that successful, you never see your kids and you end up, you don’t really even know your wife. And this guy seems to love his wife and he seems to love his kids. And wow, that breaks my framework. And so now just being around those people challenges me to go, I’m going to raise my own personal definition of what’s an okay amount of success, you know, and see what that looks like. But the other thing for me with that is I’m really deliberate about

John Jantsch (19:01.512)

Yeah.

Jon Acuff (19:14.782)

studying and working with people who have sustainable long-term success. So I’m no longer impressed by the person that has a YouTube channel that’s hot for a year or one book that did well. I’m curious about the guy who’s 40 years into his career, the woman who’s 30 years into her career, who has a family that loves her, has a spouse that loves them, has a business that’s healthy, they’re in moderate health shape. And I go, how did they do that?

John Jantsch (19:24.955)

Yes.

Jon Acuff (19:40.492)

Like how have they not blown it up? How have they not? Cause there’s plenty of examples of leaders who have. And so I treat it pretty serious about how do you, how do you enjoy success and how do you make success not change you?

John Jantsch (19:52.979)

All right. Final question. I’m guessing I could be wrong. There’d be hard to write a book like this, or at least shape the ideas of a book with this like this that you hadn’t experienced a significant goal that you failed to achieve.

Jon Acuff (20:09.428)

yeah, yeah, so I mean…

John Jantsch (20:10.349)

So do share maybe how some of that shaped this book.

Jon Acuff (20:15.02)

Yeah. mean, you could say, I mean, think about this. Like I spent three years working with Dave Ramsey and that was a really amazing experience. And then I ended up starting my own company, which was not successful for a period of time. So there were a lot of people, friends who would say, wow, what you blew it. You were on the radio with 10 million radio listeners. And then the next day you had zero radio listeners. My wife said to me, she said, Hey,

I think it’s going to be hard for you to handle that your next book won’t sell like your last book because you don’t have 10 million radio listeners to talk to about it. And that was a reality. for me, you know, that was a big, that was a big, a big moment to go, wow, I have to start over. Like I started at the bottom of a lot of ladders, in that moment where, you know, so that was definitely one that I would say, okay.

John Jantsch (20:49.363)

Thanks.

Jon Acuff (21:09.162)

I had to start over in that moment, starting my own business in that moment. It’s going to speak to 80 people in a Ramada in January in Effingham, Illinois, when I had been on stage to 10,000 people three months before. I don’t know anybody in the world that would go, this is working. I’m doing it. This is the trajectory. That’s definitely one of them. Then there’s been too many books. There’s books I’ve written that just…

didn’t find the sales market. Like one of my books, Do Over, which is about career transition, it just had the wrong title. And I came up with the title. That’s no, like I don’t, I’m not pointing a single finger that I came up with that title. Seth Godin said it was the greatest career book ever written. That was his endorsement. It’s the best endorsement I’ve ever received and it didn’t sell well. And the reason why, in my opinion, is the phrase do over was so negative to so many people. I saw it as positive.

John Jantsch (21:46.939)

Mm-hmm.

Jon Acuff (22:07.328)

I saw it as a phoenix rising from the ashes, but nobody wanted to give anyone that book. Cause you would never say to a husband, Hey, it’s a book about failures. It’s called do-overs made me think of you. Here you go. But like, no one would give that book and dude, we changed the subtitle from the hardcover to the paperback. Like we did everything and it just didn’t work. And, and I worked as hard as I could on that. I wrote the best book I could. got, you know,

John Jantsch (22:07.419)

Mm-hmm. Right, right, right, right.

John Jantsch (22:15.922)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (22:24.509)

Huh. Wow.

Jon Acuff (22:34.616)

great feedback from other writers like Seth Godin, but the titling, the way I positioned it, and again, it was me. Like I would love to blame somebody else. It was a guy named Jon Acuff that did that. And so yeah, that was definitely a humbling one.

John Jantsch (22:43.869)

Yeah.

Awesome. Well, John, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you, find out more about your work and your books?

Jon Acuff (22:58.894)

Sure. If you like podcasts, I have a podcast called All It Takes is a Goal, where I interview folks about the goals they’re working on. And then I read all my audio books. So if you’re a listener to audio, I add a ton of bonus content. If you ever write your own book and get to record the audio, add a bunch of bonus content because it’s really fun. So you can check out my two most recent All It Takes is a Goal and Soundtracks, which is about mindset. And then I’m just Jon Acuff everywhere online.

John Jantsch (23:25.189)

Awesome. Well, again, appreciate you taking a moment to stop by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road, John.

Jon Acuff (23:31.384)

Yeah, thanks. Great seeing you again, John.

5 Marketing Trends That Will Disrupt 2025 (And How to Stay Ahead)

5 Marketing Trends That Will Disrupt 2025 (And How to Stay Ahead) written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with John Jantsch

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I discuss the marketing landscape heading into 2025.

With years of experience helping businesses grow through strategic marketing approaches, I reviewed five transformative trends poised to disrupt how marketers, agencies, and organizations connect with audiences in 2025. These trends highlight the increasing role of AI, hyper-personalization, decentralized communities, and authenticity in crafting impactful strategies.

I shared actionable insights on leveraging generative AI, exploring platforms like Reddit and Bluesky, and embracing customer-centric values to build trust and loyalty. Whether you’re a small business owner or part of a marketing agency, these predictions offer a roadmap for navigating the rapidly evolving digital ecosystem in 2025.

Key Takeaways:

Hyper-Personalization Is the New Standard
Generative AI is making one-to-one marketing at scale more accessible. Tools like CRM platforms combined with customer data platforms allow businesses to tailor campaigns down to the individual level. From personalized newsletters to dynamic websites, hyper-personalization is no longer optional—it’s what customers expect.
Decentralized Communities Are Reshaping Consumer Behavior
Platforms like Reddit, Discord, and Bluesky are becoming hubs for authentic, ad-free conversations. Consumers are gravitating away from traditional social networks, forcing marketers to establish meaningful presences in these smaller, values-driven communities.
Generative AI Revolutionizes Creative Production
AI tools like DALL·E, Pictory, and Canva’s Firefly are streamlining content creation, making high-quality graphics and videos faster and more cost-effective to produce. While these tools aren’t perfect yet, their potential to democratize creative production will reshape how brands engage visually with their audiences.
AI-Driven Marketing Orchestration Is Automating the Complex
AI is emerging as the central hub for campaign management and automation. From smarter workflows to enhanced analytics, platforms like HubSpot and Google Analytics are transforming how businesses orchestrate their marketing efforts, enabling seamless touchpoints and increased efficiency.
Brand Marketing Is Key to Trust and Loyalty
In an era of increasing transparency and shifting consumer values, brand authenticity is paramount. Differentiation through trust-building and value alignment is becoming the ultimate competitive edge as traditional lead-generation methods wane.

Chapters

[00:48] Hyper-Personalization Powered by Generative AI
[02:45] Decentralized Communities and the Shift Away from Traditional Social Media
[04:43] Generative AI-Led Creative Production
[07:50] AI-Driven Marketing Orchestration
[09:42] Brand Marketing as the New Standard
[11:14] AI Transparency and Consumer Trust
[13:00] Closing Thoughts & Actionable Advice for 2025

More About John Jantsch

Author of Duct Tape Marketing and The Ultimate Marketing Engine
Check out John Jantsch’s agency and consultancy Duct Tape Marketing
Connect with John Jantsch on LinkedIn
Get free stuff & sign up for his weekly newsletter

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.898)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and guess what? It’s just me, no guests today. I’m doing a solo show. know, 2024 is getting ready to wrap up, depending upon when you’re listening to this. So I thought I would do my predictions for marketing disruption in 2025. And no shock, I’m going to actually give you five of them, but no shock, a lot of them have to do with AI.

That’s just where we are at this point in time. So I’m going to talk a little bit about what I think marketers, marketing consultants, marketing agencies, you as a marketer for your organization need to be aware of. Number one, I’m calling this hyper personalization powered by generative AI. There are a heck of a lot of tools out there now that are helping us get better at segmenting rather than just like market segments, but actually all the way down to

individual segments. you know, AI is going to give us the ability to create one-to-one campaigns really at scale. And I think that it’s going to be a huge differentiator because customers, I think you’re just going to demand, you know, once the market starts doing things and people start experiencing them, we start demanding, hey, I want that experience. And I think generic messaging is really going to make you fall

So you’re going to need to adopt some AI tools that offer or help you offer this idea of hyper personalization. know, frankly, a lot of the CRM tools, HubSpot, ActiveCampaign, you know, allow you to personalize email campaigns. And you combine that with a segmenting tool, a customer data platform will really then allow you to go deeper and deeper, do that kind of almost one-on-one personalization.

start small. You don’t have to go crazy. But I think you need to start really businesses at all levels need to start thinking that way. You know, beyond the CRM or the marketing platforms to really getting into start saying, okay, our newsletter, could we, is there, do we have the ability to start sending instead of one newsletter that everybody gets a hundred newsletters that really understand who they’re sending to.

John Jantsch (02:28.104)

and replace content. That’s what we’re going to start seeing. You know, eventually we’ll start seeing websites. You you revisit our website and dependent upon what I know about you or dependent upon, you know, the pages you look at, you might actually start seeing personalized content. That’s the world that I think is coming. It’s actually it’s happening. We just don’t even realize it if people are doing it well. All right. Number two, decentralized communities on places like

Reddit and of course everybody’s talking about Blue Sky right now as a new one. I think that you are going to see consumers moving to some of these platforms that, you know, they’re a little ad-like experiences. I think people are getting really distrust with the traditional social networks that have become politicized and have been just…

cramming ads down our throats and selling data and whatnot. So I think you’re just going to see people, consumers moving to some of these new platforms. So consequently, you’re going to see brands moving to them. And I think this idea of nurturing smaller communities is probably going to be something that, that starts happening again, starting small, set up, you know, at least a presence on, you know, places like Reddit, blue sky. I don’t know if you’ve done a search on Google lately, but

you know, we’re starting to see all kinds of Reddit content come into the search results. so participating in at least understanding what’s going on in those places, I think is going to matter. And I’m not even talking about some of, you know, those are public places, but, you know, some of the private, like if you don’t belong to a Discord community, you know, it’s not being surfaced in search and you wouldn’t know what’s going on there. So I think you’re going to see a lot more of that.

I’m using tools like BuzzSumo and BrandWatch, you know, to really monitor discussions that are happening in some of these places, I think is, know, whether it’s your brand or it’s related to the products and services that you sell. think understanding how and where people are having these conversations and the fact that they are going to be in a lot of places that maybe you’re not today. And I’m not necessarily suggesting this idea that

John Jantsch (04:47.866)

you need to sign up for every new thing that comes along. I think it’s more understanding the trend that consumers are moving to some of those and moving away from really listening to a lot of the traditional platforms. All right, another one with AI directly in the title number three, generative AI led creative production. Everybody talks about content.

And certainly we’re getting there to where content production using these AI tools has become very effective. So the next, I think the next obvious thing is the creative assets. So make them faster, cheaper, more accessible. It really levels the playing field, I think, to be able to have graphics, to be able to create videos. And I think…

I think it’s going to, we are going to continue. could make this on an entire trend when I’m talking about agencies, traditional agencies, people who are doing tactics the same way, I think do risk some obsolescence. Agencies are not going to be replaced, but ones that are using traditional tactics and selling traditional tactics really run that risk. Our job, I think is going to be strategy. It’s going to be orchestrating.

using the rich set of tools that are available to us. So I think that that’s going to happen. You’re going to see more and more of it. Things like Dolly and Pictory that are allowing us to create video and image assets. All of the design folks, the Adobe’s of the world are going to get into this. Canva is actually adding. It’s a great tool to create for creative production.

being able to automate things across some of these platforms. So again, from the tools, start looking at Pictory AI and Dolly and Mid Journey. Adobe’s entry right now is called Firefly. These are some of the things that I think that we really need to understand, but they’re certainly disrupting.

John Jantsch (07:00.078)

you know, the industries as well. I would say, you know, where we are at the close of 2024 going into 2025, these tools are not the they’re not ready for prime time in terms of saying, I’ll just create all my images and all my illustrations, all my video. I’ll just have avatars, you know, creating those. mean, I think we’re a long way from people understanding how the market’s going to respond to those. And certainly you’ve all seen the kind of oddities that can be created, you know, using a dolly.

So we’re not there yet necessarily, but we’re moving there rapidly and certainly in 2025 it’s only going to continue.

This next trend, number four, I’m calling AI-driven marketing orchestration.

I think AI in a lot of ways is going to become the central hub for certainly for campaign management. I think we can make a case for a lot of things in operations and finance. You know, we’re all really going to be disrupted in terms of how we do things. So you could actually say, you know, I talked about marketing orchestration, but you could really talk a lot about business orchestration as well. But there’s no question that

that a lot of the campaigns, some of the automation, some of the integrations and things that we do today are going to be replaced. So you’re seeing many, many tools, HubSpot, know, go high level. You know, they’re building a lot of AI into, you know, email and, and add workflows. Even, you know, things like Google analytics are, you know, you’re going to start seeing people analyzing for insights. mean, a lot of, a lot of times just reports of like,

John Jantsch (08:41.89)

Here’s the data, make some sense of it. These tools are very, very good at doing that. So think you’re going to see really full scale AI driven automation and really something that’s going to allow us to automate a lot of the touch points seamlessly. So that’s something that I think we, it’s not a overnight buy one tool, get rich, flip the switch. It is just something that piece by piece.

S O P by S O P campaign by campaign, you’re going to start seeing people integrating these more effectively. All right. Now I’m going to come full circle because I think a lot of, you know, people look at these AI tools and they’re, they’re, they really look at them as, this is going to replace humans and this is a girl place our need to do, to do marketing or to have marketers in general. And I think to me, what it’s going to do is it’s going to,

No question it’s going to impact some of the things that were done by hand. Some of the inefficiencies is going to allow people to actually deliver more value, maybe more profitably if you understand how to employ these. And number five to me is actually the piece that brings this together. I think brand marketing, I call it as the new standard. Branding, brand marketing has always been important.

But I think in turn, when it comes to customer growth and to generating leads, a lot of people have gotten away from that idea because heck, if you could figure out SEO, you could get cheap leads. If you could figure out the ad platforms and certainly they would sell you all their data, you could get cheap leads. And I think that’s going away. That’s one of the things that generative AI is making go away. A lot of the easy search, a lot of the ad platforms are going to not being able to sell their third party data. And so this differentiation through brand marketing is,

I mean, it was so important, frankly, before we actually even had a lot of the online and digital channels that exist today. And I think we’re going back there to some degree that I think consumers are really going to be much more effective in aligning their values with the brand’s values. And the fact of the matter is, I say this all the time.

John Jantsch (11:03.778)

No matter how much we talk about all these platforms and tools and technology changing, the thing that continues to change rapidly is how people get to choose to buy. mean, so much of the power, if you will, in the equation has shifted to the buyer because they could find out so much more information. They can actually be well down their journey to making a purchase decision before we even know they’re out there. so brands that really want to differentiate today,

are going to focus on trust or increasing trust, increasing loyalty. you’re going to have continued regulatory scrutiny. I think it’s going to continue to drive some of that. and I think that we have to, as businesses, you know, really focus on aligning campaigns with authentic brand values. and, and really, you know, again, our ideal customer, you know, wants to see, and I think has the ability now to choose.

to work with companies that really do communicate their values. In terms of how do you go there, one of the things you might do is just audit everything you’re doing. mean, are you in alignment with your brand standards and your values? Are you putting out messages out there that don’t make sense necessarily to the market that you’re trying to attract? And frankly,

One of things we have to do is continue to monitor these things because consumers are going to become very wary of AI produced content, AI produced visuals, AI all the way to the level of AI produced video that can replicate somebody so thoroughly that it’s very, very difficult to tell if that’s the real person or if that is an AI video. And I think a lot of consumers are going to want to know.

They’re going to want that transparency in addition to that value alignment. those are things that I think we really are going to have to be very wary of.

John Jantsch (13:09.292)

I think we have the opportunity though to lead. And whether it’s in our business or it’s in, if we are an agency working with clients, I think we do have the ability to teach and the lead. When there are new tools, I’ve talked about AI extensively in this, when there are new tools, new technologies, there’s going to be a lot of misinformation. There’s going to be a lot of hype. There’s going to be a lot of people telling you all you need is AI to get rich. mean, every single day you’re going to be hearing those kinds of messages. And I think that.

It’s really, I think one of the things that we have to do is cut through the clutter. mean, that’s really always been what I’ve tried to do when I see a new technology. The first thing I want to know is can this help me do my job better? Can this actually help me provide more value for my customers? And if the answer is yes, I want to explore it. If the answer is no, it’s just a new thing. It’s everybody’s talking about it, you know, in ways that don’t make sense. I mean, I don’t really care about that.

But I think that’s how you can start breaking these new technologies down in very practical ways. All right, that’s all I have for today. Hopefully you find some interest in this as you charge into 2025 or if you’re listening to this in 2025, certainly some things to consider. Love to hear feedback. Feel free to send me messages. It’s just John at ductapemarketing.com. And of course we love that feedback. Well, we really love five stars actually.

On, on Apple or Spotify or wherever you choose to listen. All right. Take care. Appreciate it. Well, hopefully we’ll see you one of these days out there on the road.

Simple Shifts To Turn Average Speakers Into Expert Communicators

Simple Shifts To Turn Average Speakers Into Expert Communicators written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Michael Hoeppner

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Michael Chad Hoeppner, a political communications expert known for his work with Andrew Yang during the 2020 presidential election. As an adjunct professor at Columbia Business School, Hoeppner has conducted deep dive research on the speaking habits of Hillary Rodham Clinton, Joe Biden, Gretchen Whitmer, and others.

Hoeppner is the CEO and president of GK Training, a firm dedicated to giving individuals, companies, and organizations the communication skills necessary to reach their highest goals in work and life. He has worked with some of the world’s most influential companies and their leaders. Hoeppner is also the author of “Don’t Say Um: How to Communicate Effectively to Live a Better Life.”

Our conversation spans the art of effective communication, uncovering actionable public speaking tips and simple exercises to transform average speakers into confident, expert communicators. Whether you want to eliminate filler words, speak with intentionality, or learn how to engage an audience effortlessly, Hoeppner’s insights offer practical tools for anyone looking to become a better speaker and communicator.

Key Takeaways:

Effective communication starts with intentionality
Hoeppner emphasizes shifting focus from yourself to your audience. Understanding that speaking is about serving others, not showcasing yourself, can immediately elevate your communication skills.
Filler words aren’t the enemy—lack of clarity is
Instead of obsessing over eliminating “ums” and “ahs,” focus on increasing linguistic precision. Choose your words intentionally to ensure your message resonates.
Public speaking is an extension of everyday conversation
Hoeppner reframes public speaking as simply communicating in front of an audience. By breaking the false divide between casual and formal speaking, you can bring authenticity and confidence to any setting.
Use practical exercises to master intentional communication
Techniques like the Lego Drill or finger-walking exercises can help you slow down, organize your thoughts, and speak with clarity and impact.
Tolerating silence is a game-changer
Pauses give your brain time to think, your voice time to breathe, and your audience time to process. Learning to embrace silence can be a transformative skill for better communication.

Chapters:

[00:00] Who is Michael Chad Hoeppner?
[01:58] Why Every Conversation is Public Speaking
[03:22] Shifting from Self-Focus to Audience Focus
[04:20] Understanding Filler Words and How to Replace Them
[07:41] The Lego Drill for Organizing and Slowing Down Your Thoughts
[10:29] Why You Should Unitask Instead of Multitask
[16:18] Tolerating Silence and Embracing Pauses
[18:57] Practical Exercises for Better Speaking Habits
[20:06] Balancing Rehearsal and Spontaneity in Public Speaking
[23:12] Navigating Mistakes with Confidence and Humor
[24:48] Tools and Resources from Don’t Say Um

More About Michael Chad Hoeppner:

Don’t Say Um: How to Communicate Effectively to Live a Better Life by Michael Chad Hoeppner
Check out Michael Chad Hoeppner’s Website
Connect with Michael Chad Hoeppner on LinkedIn

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Nobody does data better than Oracle. Train your AI models at twice the speed and less than half of the cost of other clouds. If you want to do more and spend less, take a free test drive at Oracle.

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.878)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Michael Chad Hoeppner. He is a political communications expert known for his work with Andrew Yang during the 2020 presidential election. And as an adjunct professor at Columbia Business School, Michael Chad Hoeppner has conducted deep dive research on the speaking habits of Hillary Rodham Clinton, Joe Biden, Gretchen Whitmer and others.

He’s the CEO and president of GK Training and author of a book we’re going to talk about today. Don’t Say How to Communicate Effectively to Live a Better Life. So Michael, welcome to the show.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (00:41.068)

Thank you so much. Pleasure to be here.

John Jantsch (00:43.578)

Okay, I have to start with the big promise. How is this going to help me live a better life?

Michael Chad Hoeppner (00:49.484)

Yeah, well, it will and I’ll tell you why. Because you speak and you communicate so much more than you actually recognize. I know that seems obvious, but we say, depending on the day, between five and 10,000 words a day. So if people think of this kind of training as compartmentalized into public speaking, it’s a total waste. And it’s not even true. I mean, I often joke that…

Every time we’re speaking it is some form of public speaking. If there’s an audience we’re speaking and it’s theoretically in public. And actually breaking down that idea, that very false distinction between what is public speaking and what is the rest of your life is an important task because it allows you to recognize how much of your life is actually influenced and determined by how effectively you can talk to other folks. And by the way,

If you learn to talk a little bit better too, you’re moving your body differently, you’re breathing differently. So in a very microscopic way, it’s actually a tiny moment of exercise and health and wellness in your day. So those are some of the ways it makes your life better.

John Jantsch (01:58.626)

And I suspect most people, I know I do, I most people do what we do almost unconsciously sometimes, especially we’re having a conversation with a friend one to one. It’s just like, you know, I’m slouching, I’m saying, I’m doing whatever. And a lot of it really is intentionality, isn’t it?

Michael Chad Hoeppner (02:16.204)

Yeah, yeah. Go farther with the metaphor you just talked about. On the one hand, we can kind of have fun with a thought experiment of if I’m talking to my friend, I’m slouching and just being really casual. But there’s a different version of that too, which is think of the really engaging conversation with your friend or even more of the point, think of it when your friend’s having a hard time and you’re trying to help them. And in that situation, how you communicate is entirely

because of your ability to be other focused. You’re not thinking about your presentation skills and am I moving my hands too much or not enough? You’re just thinking about them, which to your point is exactly why we’re able to do it so freely, so dynamically, so unconsciously. And then what happens is we cross this very fraught divide when we shift into self-focus.

whether that’s from giving a speech or being in an interview or any other high stakes communication situation, and it all becomes really problematic as we fixate on ourselves as opposed to the other person.

John Jantsch (03:22.222)

funny, I’ve done a lot of what you’re calling public speaking over the years. And I remember early on, had a mentor, somebody, you know, kind of helping me. And he said, the minute you realize it’s not about you, you know, you will be a better speaker. And it took me a long time to figure that out. It’s like that they’re not there to see me entertain them. They’re there to get some sort of transformation or some sort of message. And boy, it takes a little while, but now I

don’t even think about, you know, speaking to public. I’m like, how am here to serve?

Michael Chad Hoeppner (03:53.174)

Yeah, that service mindset is really powerful. It’s really powerful.

John Jantsch (03:59.002)

So let’s go to the ums, which thankfully now AI can just edit right out. We don’t have to worry about. But we call them filler words, right? And there’s a whole list of them. I’m right is another one. What does that tell about somebody’s communication habits?

Michael Chad Hoeppner (04:20.172)

Yeah. Well, I call my book, Don’t Say It’s a trick and the reader will learn that on the first page when you just look at the preface. It’s a trick because don’t say is the worst advice you can give yourself. It’s self-focused. It’s thought suppression, which we’re terrible at. But I knew because people really want to address this pain point, I knew it’s a way to help them actually recognize I should get this research and I should try to help myself improve in these ways.

I often say that I’m not the police, okay? I’m not saying it’s a sin or a commandment that one can never say In fact, let’s say you say every, I don’t know, 20 seconds, 25 seconds when you’re in that situation with your friend we just talked about trying to help them. Fine. You’re probably using it in the middle of a free form conversation. You’re searching for a word. But what I am very interested in…

is if when you get into the more self-focused situation, the interview, the big presentation, if the number of ums skyrocket and all of sudden you’re saying one every three seconds or five seconds, those ums actually are worth looking at because what they’re coming from is essentially you feeling some kind of pressure to fill silence or speak at a certain rate of speech or strive for some kind of vocabulary to demonstrate how smart you are or something. They’re coming from a not so useful.

So the tool that I often talk about when it comes to is that what you’re really trying to do is develop your linguistic precision. Meaning not the UM’s I’m trying to avoid, but what are all the useful, accurate, potent words instead of the that I’m actually trying to grab onto. And I will often even use what’s called embodied cognition, learning by using your body, to have people walk their fingers

across a desk like this, like I’m doing now on the… You can’t see this if you’re just listening on audio, but if you’re looking at the video, of course, walking your fingers across the desk, step by step, forcing yourself with those small little finger steps to actively choose language. So as opposed to policing yourself to never say any filler, my point really is, sure, you’re probably going to say some filler, but the real battle and the real joy actually is hunting for those words that you do want to choose.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (06:45.292)

as opposed to the little sounds you’re trying to avoid.

John Jantsch (06:49.186)

And a lot of it has to do well if it’s confidence or comfort level I mean a lot of those things like you said they come out when people are nervous more so so that a lot of times they naturally come out when somebody who is a nervous in front of an audience does it but you know, do you and I actually I was gonna go to your Your exercises and I love the attaching a physical thing to doing that because it really does bring you you know right there to where you’re thinking about the fingers

I had another one up there that I’d love for you to go to the exercise. can’t find it here. lay the Lego drill, for again, enhancing kind of memory and, and, and I love, cause I think a lot of people just feel like, I just got to get out there and practice and do it a lot, but there actually are techniques, right? Right. Practice. that gets you there. So talk a little bit about, the Lego drill.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (07:25.879)

Yeah.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (07:41.932)

Yeah, sure. You’re 100 % right to call that distinction about practice. I mean, you’ve heard sports coaches talk about this. There’s very much a difference between just practicing and then also practicing in the right way. So if you’re listening to this, if you know about yourself, when you’re in high stakes speaking situations, you talk a mile a minute, you talk as fast as you possibly can to try to fill out any sounds at all, just practicing doing more of that is actually not gonna help.

So the drill works like this and the preferred tools are in fact Lego blocks. And the reason is, is because of that little clicking function where they click together. First of all, it’s very satisfying. Second of all, it takes some time. You can’t rush it. So it enforces a little tiny bit of time discipline. The way the exercise works is this, is that you’re going to share some content, whatever it is, it could be, you know, an elevator pitch or the beginning of a presentation or really anything.

John Jantsch (08:19.96)

Yeah.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (08:37.152)

an essential answer to an interview question, whatever you want. And as opposed to just opening your mouth and seeing what comes out or trying to remember all the smart stuff you’re gonna say, no. You’re gonna say one idea and then you’ll say another one and then another one, but you’re gonna start with a single idea. So you have a number of Lego blocks with you, five, seven, whatever it is. Before you even begin, in silence, you pick up the first Lego block.

And then you say the first idea you want to share. You could think of this like the first sentence, but humans, think in ideas or thoughts, not so much sentences. anyway, you say the first idea or sentence, and at the end of it, in silence, kind of like where the period might go at the end of that sentence, you put the Lego block down on a table or a desk. Now you have to remain silent as you pick up the second Lego block. Once you have that second Lego block in the air,

Then you can share the second idea, whatever that might be. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. At the end of that idea, in silence, you click the second Lego block in place with the first. And that’s where that moment of clicking takes place. Third idea is the same thing, fourth, fifth, et cetera. Now the brilliance in this, and I don’t mean to say brilliance meaning I’m brilliant. I mean that you’re brilliant, you who are reusing it. The brilliance in this is that it

John Jantsch (09:55.205)

Hahaha.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (10:01.666)

gives your brain the opportunity to unitask rather than multitask. All you have to do is think of one idea you wanna share. Not 25 you’re trying to remember to get through as fast as you can so you don’t forget them. One, confident that at the end of that idea your brain will do what it’s miraculously good at which is considering a next idea you want to share. And so what this tends to do is A, slow you down, B,

John Jantsch (10:07.546)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (10:25.412)

Yeah.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (10:29.886)

structure your thoughts much much better and see make you oftentimes much briefer to a more concise

John Jantsch (10:36.238)

You know, as funny as I listen to that too, I know that as I’ve gone from say a 30 minute talk to a 90 minute talk, but maybe on the same topic, it does become sort of bits that connect together and you just have to get to the end of the bit, you know, is all you have to remember. And then it’s like, no, now it’s the next bit. so it really helps for that kind of structure too, doesn’t it?

Michael Chad Hoeppner (10:48.515)

Yeah.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (10:59.405)

for sure. I mean, I would go one further, which I would say the great impromptu speakers of all time, they have mastered this skill. It’s what allows someone to speak for 20 minutes, totally free form, but looking as though they have memorized this incredibly polished speech. They have just built this ability, almost like an athlete, to share one idea, knowing full well at the end they have a moment to think about what to say next.

John Jantsch (11:26.702)

So you actually start out the book talking about people being that speaking itself is an innate ability pretty much everybody is born with. How do you, I there’d be a lot of people that would disagree with that. So how do you get people back to that, that sort of, you know, starter state that, everybody’s born with, if they just have this fear like, or they society has somehow taught them that they’re not a good speaker.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (11:52.064)

Yeah, well, let me tweak a little bit the question because I actually don’t suggest that speech is innate. I would suggest that the ability to learn speech is innate and that we certainly learn speech over a period of time. But here’s the test of it. If you drop any kid in any culture anywhere as a newborn and let them grow up to age five or 10, they will speak the language fairly fluently. Writing is the proof point.

If you don’t instruct the kid how to write, they don’t learn that. It doesn’t just automatically kind of sink in. There’s a bunch of processes we go through to learn how to speak by watching each other, by mimicry, things like this. Now, to be clear, audience, I am an expert in many things that I do. very good at what I, I should say, I like to think I’m very good at what I do, but trust me, I do not do everything. And there’s a bunch of stuff I’m bad at and I’m not an evolutionary biologist, okay?

So I’m not saying necessarily what our evolutionary trajectory is. What I will say though is when you listen to a six-month-old kid scream all night long and wake up the next day with vocal cords that are ready to scream for 12 more hours, and you think about a full grown adult doing that same exercise and knowing how they would be completely hoarse. And if they did that for a few days, it would begin to already develop vocal nodes.

There’s something going on about how we create sound and language as little kids and how we do it much, worse as adults. So to get people back to speaking how they do when they’re much younger, which is freely expressing and make it very basic, turning air into sound and sound into words, we have to unlock how people talk when they’re at their most other focused. Last thing I’ll say about that, by the way, is

where there’s really interesting crucible moment in our society, which is partly because of devices and screens, some kids aren’t learning as much how to communicate face to face as in previous generations. So even some of what I just said in that answer might actually change over the next half decade, decade and more.

John Jantsch (14:06.626)

I’m curious, and this kind of touches on that, how much of your coaching, of course, is the words that are said and how they’re said, but how much of it is not the words? It’s who you are, who you’re being, your presence, all those things, which again, comes across different in person than it does across the virtual screen.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (14:24.12)

Yeah.

People who are interested in this, as a preview, the entire book is on delivery. This book doesn’t even touch on content at all. So to answer that question based on this book, would be a hundred and zero actually. But in my actual practice, I would say it’s, know, typically of two thirds, one third. So the majority is on delivery, but more than even just the balance of the two or how much time is spent in either one, the thing I’m really just obsessed by

and fascinated about is how, as opposed to fighting about which one matters more, how you can unlock a virtuous cycle in which each one makes the other better. And that you can enter that cycle really from either side, from content to delivery or delivery to content. And you can enter it from delivery to content. In other words, if you just practice speaking with more breath, more vocal variety, tolerating more silence,

John Jantsch (15:19.289)

Mm.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (15:21.954)

Your voice sounds better because it has the fuel it needs to actually sound resonant and full. But with that breath, with that silence, your brain has what it needs to think of smart stuff to say, which is oxygen and time. So the two things exist in this very complimentary dynamic that really can go into a virtuous or also, by the way, bad news, a vicious direction.

John Jantsch (15:48.058)

You mentioned tolerate silence. And I want to go there for a minute because I found that in my speaking, one of the hardest things to do, let alone learn. When I started speaking, you know, and I had a speaking coach and he was like, you need to give this like three seconds before you say another word. And I was like, when I did it the first time, that was an eternity. And I think that a lot of people struggle, but I’ve heard more and more folks like yourself talk about how important that is, how impactful that silence can really be.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (16:18.102)

Yeah, I’ll give you a few things to frame this. The first is that people get all hung up on rate of speech. How fast should I talk? And it’s incredibly intuitive if you actually think about it. Rate of speech is really just three things that frame it or that anchor it. One, how much time you need to think of smart stuff to say. Number two, how much time you want to give your audience to digest the smart stuff you said.

And then number three, how long it takes to enunciate those smart things. That’s what determines it. So pauses when we’re at our most other focused come from this very organic place, which is I need a moment and think about what I want to say or powerfully, I’ve just said something hopefully important to the person I’m talking to and I want to give them a moment to digest it. And I’m watching them like a hawk to see when they are…

demonstrating to me comprehension or acknowledgement or recognition, and that cues to me, okay, they’re ready to digest the next idea. That’s where it comes from. Now, when we’re at our most other focus, we do that seamlessly. And then when we feel like it’s all about us, to your point, we talk a mile a minute and we never pause. And our perception can be off on this, by the way, dramatically. And if you don’t believe me, in some video software tool, run some meeting that you’re very nervous about, all right? Lead the meeting.

record the whole meeting afterwards, watch it back, and tell me how long you thought the longest pause was, and you’re gonna see it was like a quarter of a second, and it felt to you like an eternity. So to your point with the speaking coach you work with who made you tolerate this eternity of time that was three seconds, there’s a bunch of tools you can do to actually quite quickly.

John Jantsch (17:48.878)

and

John Jantsch (17:54.104)

Yeah.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (18:05.41)

Build some skill with us. I’ll give you one. And this was actually, we had a nice little feature in the Wall Street Journal a couple of weeks back on this where they used this as one tool that we suggested. On video calls, when you’re asking people questions, do this little trick. At the end of the question, draw a question mark on your desk and be completely silent while you do that little activity. No one can see you’re doing it. Cause we have this, you know, as I’m just demonstrating right now, this.

what I would call a digital cloak of invisibility. People can’t see your hands, but it gives you this physical intervention to force you to actually live through that silence. And it gives you something to occupy your attention, which is drawing the question mark. But here’s a second quick idea. Anybody with a smartphone, you can do this. Open your notes video, you know, not video, what is it called? the voice memo app and record yourself talking.

John Jantsch (18:36.121)

you

John Jantsch (18:57.434)

Right, right, right.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (18:59.852)

and then look back at it and watch the little wave file that has those kind of spikes and valleys. Now look at what is the longest pause in your whole span of speaking. And you probably felt like three seconds, four seconds, bet you it’s half a second long. And so that’s a very quick way to see, wow, these are not nearly as long as I thought. And I actually could afford to have more of them in lengthier.

John Jantsch (19:25.828)

A lot of folks you talk to about speaking, know, practice, practice, practice, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse is, know, especially again, talking about the public speaking. But I’ve found that some of the best moments I’ve heard public speaking is when something happened and went off the rails and I reacted spontaneously. know, those are always the moment that everybody looks back on. Do you feel like people that

that actually practice makes those happen because you get so confident or, know, I mean, again, what I’m really trying to ask, let me get to the question now is how do you keep spontaneity when you know that you have to rehearse?

Michael Chad Hoeppner (20:06.572)

Yeah. This comes down to a little bit of actor training actually, which is people, if you’re trying to really become very solid on some content and you do care that it’s close to almost word perfect, or I’ll give you an example, if you have a three minute pitch, it really does need to be three minutes, it can’t be three and a half as an example, then your script has to be pretty tight. But people memorize the wrong thing. People memorize the wrong thing. People memorize the wrong thing.

People memorize the wrong thing. And no, by the way, don’t stop listening folks. There was not a glitch in the audio. I repeated the thing four times in a row. What they memorize is what actors call a line reading. So they memorize the delivery. They don’t just memorize the words. So their pace, pitch, pause, power, and placement, those are the five P’s of vocal variety, their pace, pitch, pause, power, and placement becomes identical every single time.

John Jantsch (20:39.544)

Ha ha ha.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (21:05.304)

they practice saying those words. So what happens? They stand up or they attend the meeting or whatever it is to do the actual thing and they sound totally robotic because they’ve beaten all the life out of these words by practicing these kind of relentless line deliveries. So if you want to learn the content, practice the content, but this time folks, you have to change the delivery every single time to keep that loose and spontaneous.

Walk around the room and swing your arms like a big slow elephant. And then the next time, say it as though you’re speaking on the top of a cliff to a giant army of people who are extending way back. And the next time, talk into a phone as though you’re at a library and you’re trying not to be overheard by the library. I know this sounds extreme, what I’m doing, but you want to break that muscle memory of

I’m rigidly clamping down on how I talk for the purpose of making sure I remember every word. It ends up sounding robotic. Now to your point about spontaneity, then if you rehearse those things in that way with some freedom of delivery, you’ve ingrained a looser experience of speaking, so it sounds more spontaneous. And then mistakes, we can get to how to deal with that if you want to. That’s a second thing, but that will help come across much less like…

overly rigid and overly polished.

John Jantsch (22:30.434)

I always love those videos of comedians that they’ll just be asking people questions and then they’ll just go on a whole thing, know, based on some of that they build up library, you know, because people ask the same questions, but I always find those really fascinating.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (22:43.79)

Yeah. Yeah. You want to talk for a second about how to navigate mistakes? Is that useful? Yeah, sure. Sure. So people often go into these three F’s when it comes to mistakes, when they’re in an adrenaline response, when public speaking or something. And of course the three F’s are the human threat response, which is, you know, fight, flight or freeze. And so I will often suggest to clients that they replace those three F’s with these three F’s, which are fake it.

John Jantsch (22:48.248)

Yeah, let’s do it. Let’s do it.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (23:12.952)

feature it or fix it. And so the fake it means if no one knows, but it’s not throwing off, fine, fake it. You don’t need to tell us every time you make a mistake in life. But if it is threatening to throw you off, then you can either fix it, which means you just acknowledge it, address it and keep going. Or you actually feature it, which I would guess is what you have developed the skill to do. Because you mentioned sometimes these moments happen and they’re some of your favorite moments that I bet

whether it’s via humor or kind of rapport building with the audience that you actually feature those moments in some way, you spin them as a slightly good thing or a positive accident. But I’m just guessing, does that resonate with you?

John Jantsch (23:56.29)

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, I definitely try to lean towards humor. Yeah.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (24:01.228)

Yeah, yeah. And those moments can create as much humanity as anything else, know? Create tremendous moments of spontaneity and also empathy, because the audience relates very much to you.

John Jantsch (24:13.851)

Yeah. Yeah. Some of them were just as nervous as you, right? About your performance. I’ve always found that too. They want you to succeed. It’s great. Yeah. It’s funny on the mistake thing. I had a music teacher early on in life that said, you know, if you make a mistake on this part, just make sure you make it again. The next time we go through, nobody will notice.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (24:18.52)

for sure.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (24:35.106)

That’s good.

John Jantsch (24:37.207)

Well, Michael, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there somewhere that you’d invite people to learn about your work and certainly find a copy of Don’t Say I’m

Michael Chad Hoeppner (24:48.0)

Yeah, it’s really simple. You can just go to don’t say um.com. That’s where to find me, where to find the book, where to find all that stuff. And I will say that the site is a great place because we give not just information and access to the book and things like that, but we also have a whole bunch of video drills and exercises. So if the ones I was talking about, the Lego drill or the finger walking or even the drawing of the question mark, if these are interesting, you actually get guided videos about how to do them.

So you can just check them out at don’tsayum.com.

John Jantsch (25:21.218)

And we’ll have that URL in the show notes as well. Again, Michael, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Michael Chad Hoeppner (25:28.088)

Sounds good. My pleasure. Have a great day, okay?

How To Sell Customer Experiences Not Customer Service

How To Sell Customer Experiences Not Customer Service written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Jeannie Walters

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I had the pleasure of interviewing Jeannie Walters.

Jeannie Walters is an award-winning customer experience expert, international keynote speaker, and Founder of Experience Investigators, a firm that helps companies increase sales and customer retention through elevated customer experiences.

Trailblazing the movement from “Reactive Customer Service” to “Proactive Customer Experience,” Walters is the leading authority for improving employee and customer relationships.

Walters is a founding member of the Customer Experience Professionals Association and a trusted advisor to numerous Fortune 500 companies, including Orangetheory Fitness, SAP, Comcast, and JPMorgan Chase. As an educator, her LinkedIn Learning courses have inspired over 500,000 learners worldwide. A Certified Speaking Professional and proud Professional Member of the National Speakers Association, Jeannie has captivated audiences of tens of thousands across three continents with her expertise and insights.

In this episode, we discuss the importance of understanding and improving customer experience—not service, experience! We also discuss the relationship between customer experience and marketing, the role of technology, generational differences in customer expectations, the significance of speed (how soon is “soon”?), and the necessity of building a customer-centric culture. Jeannie emphasizes the need for organizations to adopt a mindset focused on customer experience, implement effective strategies, and continuously test and adapt their approaches based on feedback.

Key Takeaways:

Marketing and customer experience are complementary but distinct.
Customer experience encompasses the entire journey between a brand and a customer.
Technology should enhance, not replace, human interaction in customer service.
Generational differences affect customer expectations and behaviors.
Speed is a critical expectation in today’s customer experience landscape.
A customer-centric culture is essential for delivering exceptional experiences.
Organizations must define success metrics for customer experience initiatives.
Testing and feedback are crucial for refining customer experience strategies.
Customer journey mapping should involve frontline employees and customers.
Transparency and alignment with values attract modern consumers.

Chapters:

[00:00] Understanding Customer Experience
[02:50] The Relationship Between Marketing and Customer Experience
[05:51] Navigating Technology in Customer Experience
[08:57] Generational Differences in Customer Expectations
[12:01] The Importance of Speed in Customer Experience
[14:46] Building a Customer-Centric Culture
[18:10] Implementing Customer Experience Strategies
[21:11] The Role of Testing and Feedback in Customer Experience

More About Jeannie Walters:

Check out Jeannie Walters‘ Website
Connect with Jeannie Walters on LinkedIn

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by:

Nobody does data better than Oracle. Train your AI models at twice the speed and less than half of the cost of other clouds. If you want to do more and spend less, take a free test drive at Oracle.

Duct Tape Transcript

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(01:05): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Jeannie Walters. She’s an award-winning customer experience expert, international keynote speaker and founder of Experience Investigators, a firm helping companies increase sales and customer attention through elevated customer experiences. She’s a charter member of the Customer Experience Professionals Association and having worked with numerous Fortune 500 companies, including Orange Theory Fitness, SAP, Comcast, and JP Morgan Chase, just to name a few, we’re going to talk about customer experience. So Jeannie, welcome to the show.

Jeannie Walters (01:44): Thank you so much, John. I’m thrilled to be here.

John Jantsch (01:47): So I start a lot of my shows asking if people to fine terms, and I find that there’s a lot of terms out there that we use every day that maybe people, they have a misunderstanding or I think, well, at least I like to get your baseline. So when somebody says customer experience, how do you define that?

Jeannie Walters (02:06): Well, I’m so glad you asked because it is a term that gets thrown around a lot and often when I introduce myself and I say something about customer experience, people immediately make the mental jump to customer service.

John Jantsch (02:18): And

Jeannie Walters (02:18): They love to tell me their worst customer service story as a customer. And customer service is part of the experience, but the way that we define customer experience is it is literally what happens throughout the entire journey. Every interaction you have between a brand and a customer from before they even know they need you to all the way to when they leave you or become a lifelong customer. And I also like to remind people that your customers are having an experience whether you talk about it or not. And so what we try to really help our clients with and what I’ve been dedicated to for all this time is really helping get more proactive and intentional about designing the customer experience so that you can really relate to what customers actually need in that moment and then give them that so that they keep going through the journey with you.

John Jantsch (03:16): As I listened to you, describe that there would be some, myself included that would argue that sounds like marketing. I knew this was coming. So where is customer experience a subset of marketing? Does it walk alongside marketing? How do you fit that in?

Jeannie Walters (03:34): So I look at it as two different lenses that compliment each other. So marketing is really an act inside the business to help connect with customers and help actually kind of guide them to where we think they should go next. That’s what we’re trying to do. Customer experience is more about understanding from the customer’s perspective, what is it they need when so that we can actually design that inside the organization. A lot of the work we do in customer experience is helping really us as business leaders understand how to even understand the customer journey because we are taught to think about our role and our org chart and all of those things. Customer doesn’t care.

John Jantsch (04:21): Plus, I think a lot of it goes on today without our knowledge, right?

Jeannie Walters (04:24): Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. We have so much less control than we did

John Jantsch (04:29): 10,

Jeannie Walters (04:30): 15 years ago for sure.

John Jantsch (04:34): A lot of times when people think customer experience, they’ll say like, oh, we need to wow our customers, which that could be good, but how do you first align? I know with marketing plans and marketing strategy, we always try to align them with business goals. I assume that there’s a role for that alignment when you talk customer experience isn’t there.

Jeannie Walters (04:53): Yes, absolutely. And this is one of the, I think persistent myths out there is that as customer experience leaders, we need to care about our customer satisfaction rate or our net promoter score or things like that, which absolutely, but those are measurements, they’re indicators, they aren’t outcomes. So what I like to do is look at what are the organizational goals? What are we trying to do here, and what are the levers we need to pull within the customer experience to help us both understand how to get there and also look for opportunities and challenges and ways that we can just make things a little easier for our customers? A little less friction. I personally don’t believe we have to wow every customer every time because that’s not realistic either.

John Jantsch (05:43): It’s exhausting.

Jeannie Walters (05:44): Yeah, it’s exhausting. And some of those things that are held up as those wow moments, they’re not scalable. They’re things that are pr, they’re great PR and marketing, but they’re not necessarily scalable. So what we to look at is really understanding what does your customer need in this moment and how do we know? Because sometimes humans say one thing and they behave differently. So you can have all the surveys in the world and you could still get it wrong. So you really need to be savvy about understanding customer behavior, operational metrics, the indicators that are out there to help us get the business outcomes that we’re aiming to get.

John Jantsch (06:22): Yeah. What was that Henry Ford saying? If I’d asked my customers what they wanted, they would’ve set a faster horse.

Jeannie Walters (06:28): That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. And innovation is a huge part of this, and it’s a huge opportunity, but that means that you can’t just ask because humans don’t make any sense.

John Jantsch (06:43): Well, and a lot of the greatest innovations out there, the iPod for example, I mean, nobody was even thinking about that as something that they needed, right?

Jeannie Walters (06:55): Right, exactly. Exactly.

John Jantsch (06:56): So what role do you see increasing role? There’s definitely a role, huge role for good or bad technology playing in customer experience. I mean, you have technology that I think at one point sometimes people look at it as, oh good, we’ll never have to talk to those damn customers again because we’ve got this technology that’ll do it. And then there’s also places where it’s like, no, the example I always love to use is when I go see my eye doctor, I don’t want to have to call somebody. I want to go on there, schedule my appointment, and they’ve got my record there. To me, that was a better customer experience, but when I’m getting examined, I want somebody who’s very listening and different experience. So how do you help people navigate technology?

Jeannie Walters (07:42): Yeah, it’s a great question because I mean, one thing to keep in mind is technology is a tool on the toolkit. You still have to figure out what is the overall strategic vision that you have, what are you trying to do, who are you serving? All of those things. But what I really am seeing that I get excited about is actually exactly your example. We want more self-service options. As customers, we want to be able to have choice based on context. Sometimes I hear people categorize people like, well, the big one before the pandemic, the big one was, well, anybody 50 plus, they’re not a digital customer, right? Well, and of course that is not true. It’s all about context. There are times where you don’t want to call. There are times where you need to call and we need to give customers options. And technology gives us so many great ways to, again, proactively think about this and design those touch points. So if somebody gets stuck with that technology, do they have an option where they can call somebody who knows that they’ve already been through that? Because the most frustrating thing that can happen is you spend your life telling a chatbot your life story, and then they can’t help you and you pick up the phone and call and they didn’t know that happened. They have no visibility.

(09:02): And that’s the technology I’m seeing that I think will vastly improve the customer experience, is connecting the dots inside the organization and giving the right people the right visibility so that when you call and you’re already angry and you’re frustrated because you just went through that chatbot thing, somebody who is answering that call understands that’s where you are in your journey and can respond immediately and say, I have all your information. I know exactly what to do next, and I’m sorry that happened. So I think we have to blend the ease and efficiency of technology with the understanding and empathy of humans on a regular basis, and look for ways that we can basically jump in at either point and give customers the options that they are asking for.

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(10:46): That’s oracle.com/duct tape oracle.com/duct tape. You bring up a good point though, the cliche of the generational thing that you used there, but there are realities in some generational differences into how people want to be treated, or at least what their expectations are. I always kind of tease my kids if I can be cliche, I’m just a lot more patient than they are. If something doesn’t work the way it’s supposed to work, they’re out of there. And I’m like, okay, let’s try another path. Do companies need to try to understand that? Is it possible to understand the generational differences?

Jeannie Walters (11:25): Absolutely. And I think a big one that I’m seeing is that the way we behave as customers is very different. And part of that is, I mean, there used to be an expression that if your mom used tide detergent, you used it, right? There was just no question. And now the younger generations are much more likely to, number one, align their values with who they do business with, and they’re very serious about this. There have been other generations who about it, but aren’t necessarily acting on it. These younger generations are acting on that. So you need to make sure you’re visible and transparent with your values in a different way in order to attract the right customers. The other part of that is to your point, there’s some irony in some of the behavioral assumptions we make because some of the younger generations are actually more savvy about when to call.

(12:20): So they reach a certain point and they know the only way I’m going to get this solved is by calling, but they’re prepared for it. They’re not, not frazzled, they’re just solving their problem in a different way. So we have to again, figure out what’s the best way to serve them in that moment within this context, because I really believe that all of us as humans, I mean the world is changing at such an incredible speed, and we have to learn new things every single day. We can’t just do what we did last week, and we have to keep up with that for customers. But it’s all about the context of the need and where they are in their journey, and also who they are. There are some people who they want quick answers, they don’t want a lot of empathy. They just want you to tell ’em what’s wrong and move on. There are other people who, they want the whole thing. They want to tell you everything that happened. And so we need to figure out how do we recognize those people and serve them in the best possible way in that moment. And some of that is generational, and a lot of that is contextual now.

John Jantsch (13:24): So I’m going to come back to that point, but you mentioned speed, and I would say speed has become a huge driver today of customer experience or at least expectation. I was watching a movie the other day and these kind of teenage kids, their mom had died a few years ago and they found a camera of hers and they had film in it. And so they took it to a place and the guy said, do you want the one hour service? And they were like, it’s going to take an hour.

Jeannie Walters (13:51): That’s a great example.

John Jantsch (13:52): It really is. And I do think so how are you factoring in the idea that speed is just become an

Jeannie Walters (13:59): Expectation? Well, I think in a way it’s always been an expectation, but we’ve learned as customers kind of how to be complacent about it. And so one of the things that I always look for is what are the assumptions we’re making about time? And what I mean by that is, for instance, one of the things I love to ask in these workshops we do is, okay, what do you do really well here? And a lot of people say, well, we get back to people we’re really friendly. And I’ll say, okay, so what’s your definition of soon? And you get 18 different answers. Because if you don’t define what we mean by those time indications, we are going to set the wrong expectations for customers. And that’s where disappointment comes in. So some of this is about setting the right expectations and being proactive when we don’t know something, when we have to call back and say, Hey, I don’t have this yet, but I will. And so I think part of what customers are expecting is the worst. You’re not going to call me back when you say you’re not, or what do you mean it’s going to take an hour? That’s a great example. That’s crazy to them. And so we need to make sure that when we talk about time, we are all speaking the same language. And sometimes that’s just not the case right now.

John Jantsch (15:26): Yeah, because so much of success in life, let alone in business, is just meeting expectations, right? Absolutely. If you thought it was coming Friday and it came Thursday, you’re a hero. But if it came Saturday, it was like, no, the whole thing failed. So how much of this in an organization, when I heard you describing people making decisions about, oh, this person’s already angry, so I need to handle it this way. How much of that is taught? How much of that is just culture?

Jeannie Walters (15:57): Oh, that’s a great question, John. I think, I mean, it’s definitely a combination of both because we can teach and train to so many different scenarios, and somebody will show up with a totally different one the next day because humans have all sorts of crazy stuff happen. So we have to both develop a culture where people feel empowered by a similar value structure. And what I mean by that is we use something called a customer experience mission statement. And the reason we started developing this is because we saw that a lot of people said things like, well, we want to deliver exceptional customer experiences, but you and I might handle those things differently based on our life experience and our judgment and all of that. And neither one is wrong, it’s just different. But if you are inconsistent, that actually chips away at the trust with the customer.

(16:50): So we want to make sure that we are really aligned around a culture that empowers people to make the right decisions in the right moment. Having said that, we need to spend some time on teaching and training and alignment, because otherwise we are just asking everybody. I mean, one of my favorite examples of this is I was looking at the goals of an organization, and one of their big goals was we need to deliver friendlier experiences for our customers. And I said, well, how do you know if you’re succeeding at that? And so we have to spend some time figuring out what are we really saying? What are the stakes in the ground? What are the milestones? How do we know if we’re successful? Because then you can bring that back to the culture and say, this is what we really mean. This is who we are no matter what, and this is how we show up for our customers and for one another. And that alignment is really important too. We can’t treat customers one way and treat each other a different way.

John Jantsch (17:49): And that’s really to the culture point. You’re absolutely right. I mean, a lot of times, I used to say years ago that any way, shape and form in which your business is coming into contact with a customer or prospect, that contact is performing a marketing function. And a lot of times as organizations grow, the leadership has no contact with the customer anymore.

Jeannie Walters (18:10): Yeah, it’s very true.

John Jantsch (18:11): And yet those people are probably treating the customers about as well as you’re treating them, right?

Jeannie Walters (18:20): Yep. Yep. That is definitely something that as people get further up in the org chart, they get further and further away. And to your point, the opposite is true where all of the behavior rolls down the org chart too. And so it is really important that people feel, again, that alignment with values that’s just so important in any culture.

John Jantsch (18:41): Yeah. I know in our organization over the years, I’ve had people that customer, they have a bad experience with a customer, and they’re kind of bad mouthing the customer in front of the team. I’m like, we just can’t do that ever, ever, because it’s not acceptable for them to do. And if we’re saying that’s the behavior, but especially in smaller organizations, that takes intention, doesn’t it

Jeannie Walters (19:05): Does for sure.

John Jantsch (19:06): Tell me a little bit. So if I came to you and I said, Hey, this customer experience thing sounds awesome, you need to customer experience us. How would that start? I mean, are we going to map out journey points or touch points? I mean, what’s the process look like?

Jeannie Walters (19:21): Yep. I always think of customer experience work and really setting the foundation for it in any organization as a three step kind of foundational process. And then we move into, we’ve got all these tools in our toolkit, like customer journey mapping, but I like to start with the idea that it’s a mindset, it’s a strategy, and then it’s a discipline within your organization. So you kind of have to think about it. Any other part of your business, you would never say, for instance, we should really do sales, so let’s bring in somebody, do a workshop. And if that doesn’t work, I guess sales doesn’t work. That would never happen. But we do that a lot with customer experience. We think it’s a magic wand. So we like to think about it as to get the mindset you need that customer experience, mission statement, something centralized within your organization.

(20:09): So we do workshops and strategy and executive coaching on that, and then we go into strategy, which is really what are you trying to do and what are the efforts that we’re going to put into this to achieve those outcomes? So we define those outcomes and all of those things. That’s with something we call a strategy success statement. And then we move into the discipline of it. How are we going to get this done? Who’s involved? How do we actually work together? How do we get our leaders involved and how do we know if we’re successful? And all of those things. So that’s kind of the foundation of it. And then there are things like, yeah, we want to map out what is the ideal experience. I really believe that innovation is experience driven right now. You think about the disruptors of the last 20 years, they’ve all been experience driven. And so we do something called experiential innovation where we help people think about how do they disrupt their industry with experience. So there are all these different ways, and it’s all based on what are you trying to do as an organization and how can we help you be the most successful you can be, while at the same time making it a win. So your customers, your employees, and all your stakeholders love you. That’s really what we’re trying to do,

John Jantsch (21:19): How important. We’re going to run out of time here. So I’ll wrap up pretty quickly. I’d love to know, so I’ve got this roadmap. We’ve identified things, processes, campaigns, whatever that need to be put in place. How important is testing and monitoring and analyzing, this worked, this didn’t work. Let’s try something. I mean, I’m sure a lot of people are senate, forget it people, right? It’s like, this is our process. Here’s our SOP go.

Jeannie Walters (21:43): Yep. Yeah. It is important, and I like to think about it less about testing and more about pilots, because a lot of times you want to test things in a way that you’ll know yes or no, and humans just are very unpredictable. And so what I like to do is take a smaller kind of subset and say, okay, let’s learn from this pilot, because we always get feedback. We always learn something in that. Then you can start applying at scale and see what works and what doesn’t. So we do that as well as inviting customers into the process, making sure that if you’re doing customer journey mapping and you never talk to a customer, you are missing a huge opportunity as well as your frontline workers, your cashiers, your customer service reps, your salespeople. Sometimes they’re left out of the process mapping, and I’m like, no, we need them. So we think about it as customer collaboration. You need to have that along the way every step of the way,

John Jantsch (22:44): And even customer or units inside of an organization. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve talked to a leader of marketing and sales and customer service, and they’re like, wait, after we get an order, you do that.

Jeannie Walters (22:55): Absolutely. That happens. Absolutely. Yep.

John Jantsch (22:57): So it’s pretty incredible. It’s like, oh, nobody bothered to talk to each other.

Jeannie Walters (23:01): Great. That’s right. That’s right. And that’s what I love about things like journey mapping and service blueprinting, because you get people together and just the act of that can create real change in an organization.

John Jantsch (23:13): Yeah. Well, Jeanie, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there some place you’d invite people to connect you and learn about your work?

Jeannie Walters (23:20): Sure. Yes, please join us@experienceinvestigators.com. We have a ton of stuff there in our learning center. And then you can also find me on LinkedIn, and I’ve got a few LinkedIn learning courses out there too. So I’d love to hear from you.

John Jantsch (23:33): Again, appreciate you taking a few moments, and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

How to Ask The Right Questions Using Thoughtful Curiosity

How to Ask The Right Questions Using Thoughtful Curiosity written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Dr. Amber L. Wright

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Amber Wright. Dr. Amber L. Wright is a communication expert, coach, facilitator, and former communication professor. She helps organizations improve how they make their people feel seen, heard, and valued. As an executive coach and speaker, she guides leaders to express their highest selves with authentic authority and grace. Her popular TEDx Talk, “Ask Better Questions to Build Better Connections,” has inspired people around the world to become stronger communicators in their everyday lives. Dr. Wright has been featured in Fast Company, Essence, and Mashable, and is the creator of Can We Talk? Cards – 50 questions designed to take the guesswork out of small talk.

We talk about the importance of asking the right questions to foster better connections and how self-awareness and active listening are crucial in effective communication, especially in business settings. Dr. Wright’s emphasis on making others feel seen and heard and how thoughtful curiosity can enhance interpersonal relationships. Our conversation also touches on navigating different personalities within teams and strategies for resolving conflicts.

Key Takeaways:

Every relationship begins or ends with a question.
Asking open-ended questions invites more profound reflection.
Self-awareness is essential for effective leadership.
Listening to understand is more important than listening to reply.
Thoughtful curiosity helps in asking appropriate questions.
The relationship with oneself is the most important.
Questions can help challenge limiting beliefs.
Understanding personality differences improves team communication.
Conflict resolution requires understanding the other person’s perspective.
Engagement in conversations can be enhanced through thoughtful questions.

Chapters:

[00:00] The Power of Questions
[03:06] Feeling Seen and Self-Awareness
[05:54] The Art of Listening
[09:02] Engaging in Business Conversations
[12:06] Intrapersonal Communication and Self-Reflection
[15:03] Navigating Different Personalities
[18:02] Conflict Resolution Strategies

More About Dr. Amber L. Wright:

Check out Amber L. Wright’s Website
Connect with Amber L. Wright on LinkedIn

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Dr. Amber Wright. She is a communication expert, coach, facilitator and former communication professor. She helps organizations improve how they make their people feel seen, heard and valued. As an executive coach and speaker, she guides leaders to express their highest selves with authentic authority and grace. Her popular TEDx talk, Ask Better Questions to Build Better Connections has inspired people around the world to become stronger communicators in their everyday lives. So do I call you Dr. Amber, Dr. Wright? Either way, welcome to the show.

Dr. Amber Wright (00:41)

Thank you. can call me Dr. Amber. Amber’s just fine as well.

John Jantsch (00:45)

So let’s start with referencing your TED Talk. Why questions? Why are questions so powerful? Or why do you suggest that’s the medium for better connections?

Dr. Amber Wright (00:58)

That’s because every relationship that we ever enter into, personal or professional, begins or ends with a question. What’s your name? How are you? Are you single? Are you hiring? In the middle of it, what are we doing? Is this working? Is this not working? Is it over? So having that realization is the impetus of my work and in the sense that knowing that right why aren’t we better at asking questions since they’re so important.

John Jantsch (01:28)

Yeah. So as I listed that list of questions you gave as examples there, I mean, in some cases they’re almost punctuation to conversations, right? They’re almost not real questions. Like when somebody says, how are you? Do you ever really give that some thought? Well, let me think about it. But you do talk about the right questions though. can you give some examples of what you would suggest are powerful sort of right questions? I know they’re probably different different situations, but let’s go there for a

Dr. Amber Wright (01:52)

Yeah, I frame a better question or a right question, a good question as one that is open ended, obviously, and that also serves as an invitation. It invites the person to reflect. And I tell often, and I say this in my talk, my TEDx about how when my teenager now, when she was in grade school, I’d pick her up and say, how was your day? That’s technically an open ended question, but a better question is, what was the best part of your day?

John Jantsch (02:30)

Yeah.

Dr. Amber Wright (02:30)

today. That gives her an invitation then to reflect on her day and we can have a richer discussion as a result.

John Jantsch (02:38)

It’s much easier question to answer too, right? I mean, how was your day? I don’t know. Let me think. What did I do all day? Whereas a very specific question, I think, I mean, in a lot of contexts is easier for us. One of the pieces, you know, it’s in your bio and I know you talk about it in the talk is this idea of feeling seen. And I think that’s, it seems like that’s become a pretty common or almost trendy thing to say.

Dr. Amber Wright (02:42)

Dude, yeah.

John Jantsch (03:06)

And I wonder if you could make that practical for us. What does that mean?

Dr. Amber Wright (03:12)

I think when you make someone feel seen, there’s something about kind of quietly saying, I see you. And that comes by way of just paying closer attention. It’s noticing that, you know, someone on your team is tearful on a call or maybe they are off camera for some reason consistently. It’s noticing when it’s the drop of the shoulders non-verbally. It’s the role of the eye in a meeting. It’s being able to kind of notice the things that are happening around you in both times of chemistry and in conflict and be able to say, I see how you might be feeling disappointed by X, Y, and Z thing. How can I support you?

John Jantsch (03:40)

Thanks

Dr. Amber Wright (03:58)

To see someone is to acknowledge them.

John Jantsch (04:02)

So what are some of the kind of most, well, let me back up. was going to ask you for most, like, there’s lots of applications, lots of uses for this technique, if you will. But what are you, what role does self-awareness play in this? Right? I mean, as I listened to you talk about that idea of, I mean, you have to really be very aware of yourself, I think, to understand what’s going on in the other person’s world.

Dr. Amber Wright (04:32)

Absolutely. And that is the harder work that’s at play. I give keynotes and talks to leadership teams all the time. And to be a good leader, think the first thing, the first rule of order is to know thyself. You got to know who you are as a person because then that impacts the way that you show up as a leader. So then just interpersonally, who am I as a person?

John Jantsch (04:50)

Right, right.

Dr. Amber Wright (04:59)

How do I take in information? How am I energized? Do I prefer introversion, extroversion? That’s why personality assessments are so popular because they help give us language to grow in our self-awareness, to describe what it’s like to experience us as people. And I like to encourage people to do that work because it can be such a good investment in all of your interpersonal and professional relationship dynamics. Self-awareness is so key.

John Jantsch (05:26)

So I could create a list. In fact, I have created a list of questions that I plan to ask you, or at least something close to those.

Dr. Amber Wright (05:32)

Yes.

John Jantsch (05:37)

Equally important, as important as, maybe more important than the question is actually hearing what the person said. Right? I mean, so most of us are, I would say the majority of people are not great listeners. How key is that role?

Dr. Amber Wright (05:54)

You’re on a roll here, John. think after self-awareness, it’s listening. I always say we have two ears and one mouth for a reason so we can listen twice as much as we speak. And that is another layer of the deeper work. Are we slowing down enough to pay attention and to listen to understand, not only to reply. Many times we were just listening for that on-ramp to be able to say whether that person is right or wrong about whatever they’re telling you. And that’s not true active listening. And I think that’s why some people are so bad at it because it takes intention to say, I’m going to look you in the eye. I’m going to be present with you and pay attention to what you’re saying so that I can respond thoughtfully.

John Jantsch (06:37)

And let’s face it, you have to kind of care about what they’re saying.

Dr. Amber Wright (06:44)

Yeah, I think that’s relative. Because you might not, but it’s still worth it to pay attention.

John Jantsch (06:50)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you want to give a couple examples? A lot of my listeners are business owners, entrepreneurs, or they work in team leaders and things of that nature. What are some examples of the different places, say, in a business that this is important? mean, we’ve got customers, some of them are happy, some of them are not so happy. We’ve got team members, we’ve got prospects in selling environments.

Dr. Amber Wright (07:14)

Okay, cool.

John Jantsch (07:19)

You know, is this what you’re talking about? Questioning a skill that we ought to bring to every one of those situations.

Dr. Amber Wright (07:25)

Absolutely. You can’t solve the client’s problem if you’re not listening to what they tell you. When you ask them the question, what’s the biggest challenge you’re having right now? And listening intently for the answer. And then that’s where we paraphrase and say, well, what I hear you saying is you’re struggling with your marketing or your messaging isn’t landing with your potential clients. This is how I can help you with that. So listening is paramount just as much as and asking really thoughtful questions as well.

John Jantsch (07:58)

Yeah, and I know just in my own selling situation, certainly in my own leadership role with my organization, if I just lecture, people check out pretty fast. And so certainly questioning is a way to keep engagement, keep attention too, isn’t it? mean, we all, it’s almost like in school, like if you think the teacher’s gonna call on you, you’re gonna pay more attention, right?

Dr. Amber Wright (08:10)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:24)

Even if all they’re doing is repeating back what you said. I mean, how much of that is almost a tactic in some ways to keep people engaged?

Dr. Amber Wright (08:34)

It’s a lot of it is and I think that’s why it’s important for us to be thoughtful about how we show up and how we engage. You mentioned earlier the example of how we say things like, how are you doing? Even though that’s a question, we use it as a punctuation statement. I don’t answer. My answer to that is I’m good, thank you. Because I want to pause and say, do I really want to ask this person how they’re doing?

John Jantsch (08:55)

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Amber Wright (09:02)

If I know that I don’t have time to actually listen. And that helps me to kind of slow down enough to be thoughtful about that. And that’s what I think that can be of service to us as business owners and entrepreneurs. Again, are we asking thoughtful questions and are we listening intently for the responses?

John Jantsch (09:20)

How much awareness may be the right word, but I know sometimes people, they’re clearly, they’ve clearly listened to you or had coaching from you. So they’re asking me questions, but I don’t know them well enough to feel like that’s a question I should answer to you. know, somebody before I meet them or even on LinkedIn, you know, will say, what are you most excited about, you know, this year in your business? And I’m like, I don’t even know who you are.

Dr. Amber Wright (09:32)

Hahaha! Mm-hmm. Yeah.

John Jantsch (09:50)

That seems like too far of a reach. So, you know, how do you kind of meter out like what’s an appropriate question given the level of our relationship?

Dr. Amber Wright (10:01)

That I think comes down to being able to just keep your finger on the pulse of the environment. know, that’s such thing as reading the room and engaging. Or if I’m at a networking event or if I’m at a conference, I’m meeting somebody for the first time. I’m not going to tell them my whole life story. I some people do, but you know, I’m going to be thoughtful and going to be mindful. So I use what I call thoughtful curiosity and that is to inquire without being intrusive.

John Jantsch (10:07)

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Amber Wright (10:24)

And that takes, it goes back to that big I word of intention, that takes me thinking about like, all right, if I’m going to this event, how do I want to show up and how do I want to engage with people? And then let that inform the types of questions that you ask. So for example, if you’re meeting someone for the first time, instead of just the, what do you do? You can say, what inspires you about your work? It’s a more thoughtful question, but it’s not intrusive. And it’s a better question, just, so what do you do? Right? So it’s that kind of intention that I’m speaking of.

John Jantsch (10:56)

All right, so let’s say your intention is awesome, and you ask a question like that, and it really goes to like a dark or negative place, you right off the bat. And you’re like, wow, I really wasn’t trying to go there. How do you handle situations that kind of go off, you know, where you were intending to go?

Dr. Amber Wright (11:17)

That goes back to being just a good human, I think. If someone responds and they’re just like, well, you know, I threw my back out, my wife left me, I’m having a bad day. You know, I’m sorry to hear that today’s not going well for you. I hope that it gets better. And then you let it go.

John Jantsch (11:20)

well, we’re done here. If that’s your answer, we’re done here. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Right. Okay, so we’re talking about asking questions to others. I do a lot of meditation practice and a lot of the teachings around meditation are getting kind of the questions we ask ourselves out of the way or at least not holding us back. How do we frame questions we ask ourselves in a way that are going to be the right questions?

Dr. Amber Wright (11:53)

I love that you asked that question, John. It’s one of my favorite things to do, to talk about, because I say so often we focus on interpersonal communication. We don’t think enough about intrapersonal communication. So the number one relationship that you have in this world is the one that you have with yourself. So these same principles apply to how we talk to ourselves. I don’t meditate heavily, but I’m a journaler.

John Jantsch (12:14)

Right.Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amber Wright (12:31)

And that’s my opportunity to say, what’s going on girl? How are you really feeling about such things or about whatever is going on in your life? what do you want to do about it? What are you thinking about it? And just again, it’s another invitation for reflection so that I can grow in my self-awareness. I love communicating with myself and I talk out loud that, you know, I’m not ashamed to admit it. I talk out loud and I think that all of those things are in service to us getting to know ourselves better, which informs the way that we show up.

John Jantsch (13:04)

So let’s stay on that track a little bit. I mean, some of the questions that I think we ask ourselves, they’re sometimes deeply rooted in what all of our stories have been, right? And some of those really are limiting, that come from limiting beliefs. How do we, let’s say we’re saying, I want to stop doing that. I want to get out of that. Are there questions or are there practices that we can use to challenge our own limitations?

Dr. Amber Wright (13:31)

wow, that’s an excellent question, John. I think is the answer to that. And what I mean by that is what’s my issue? Really? How am I feeling? Really? That’s when we can dig a little deeper and get to the true heart of the matter. And a question that was very helpful to me that I listened, I heard in a book that I listened to last year, the author said, when it comes to defining or deciding what your true wants are, she says to ask yourself. If I knew that it would work out and I knew nobody would be mad at me, what would I want then? Wow, it was such a powerful tool to get me to reflect. So that’s when you can get as honest as you can because you’re the one that has to live with your truth. Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:28)

That’s what’s holding us back, right? All right, so let’s go back to teams again. Sometimes teams are made up of people that have vastly different personalities. So are there ways to, like some people, man, you come in, you ask them the most direct question you can, and they’re all about it. And then there are definitely other people that are like, no, we got to go through about eight layers of this before we’re to get anywhere deep, right? So how do you…

Dr. Amber Wright (14:38)

Yes.

John Jantsch (14:55)

How do you approach those situations where you’ve really got vastly different personalities that you need to communicate?

Dr. Amber Wright (15:03)

This is why I love, again, personality assessments. I’m a certified MyArch Greggs practitioner, for example, and we use those tools because if I’m onboarded to your team and I’m working at Duct Tape Marketing now, we’re sitting down, we’re having this meeting, and I say, you know, the way that I like to take in information is I need a lot of details, but you as the CEO are an idealist person, it’s helpful for me to know that.

John Jantsch (15:06)

Yeah.

Dr. Amber Wright (15:26)

I think sometimes on teams, don’t spend enough time talking about our individual selves and our individual approaches to the way that we work. And then we end up with some misunderstandings, miscommunications, challenges, conflicts, because I’m taking it personally that John is a big ideas person and he doesn’t give me the details that I need in order for me to feel secure to do my job. So I think carving out spaces for us to actually say, what is your communication style? What is your conflict style?

John Jantsch (15:55)

Yeah.

Dr. Amber Wright (15:55)

What is your leadership style? And being able to talk about that, I think can then empower and equip teams to work more efficiently. We just, we’re so busy we don’t have time doing it.

John Jantsch (16:03)

Do you think people know the answers to that? Like, have you asked me what’s my conflict style? I don’t know. Do I know? It’s usually like to run, but…

Dr. Amber Wright (16:14)

Also, you’re an avoider. Avoiding, competing, collaborating, compromising, accommodating. My avoiders are my runners.

John Jantsch (16:26)

Actually, I’ve gotten much better about that. So let’s talk about conflict for a minute. are there particular, I mean, in situations where, you know, sometimes there’s emotions involved, but sometimes there’s just really deeply not agreeing opinions. For example, tomorrow, depending on those of you when you’re listening to this, tomorrow’s election day in the United States, and there seem to be really differing opinions, very strong on different sides.

Dr. Amber Wright (16:43)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

John Jantsch (16:55)

You know, is there a way to mitigate conflict or to try to, you know, try to be seen and see, you know, that other person when you have really strong differing opinions.

Dr. Amber Wright (17:02)

Yeah, that’s a loaded question. But I think that my answer to that is no. I think when comes down to, when we were talking about handling conflict effectively, like a mature grownup is one to consider the other person’s perspective. I don’t think we do that enough. And taking a moment to think about like, if I’m this person or I’m in their shoes, can I see things from where they’re coming from?

John Jantsch (17:10)

You don’t have to name any names.

Dr. Amber Wright (17:38)

Having the wherewithal to name what the issue actually is, because sometimes we get caught up in the sparks of conflict, and that draws us away from the actual issue. And if we can stay focused on what the issue actually is, and name it and frame it in such a way we use this device called iStatements to say, I felt this way when you did x thing.

John Jantsch (17:47)

Yes, yes, yes.

Dr. Amber Wright (18:02)

It’s less about the behavior of the person themselves, but really about how you reacted to the choice that they made. That allows for more fruitful conversation, but we’ve got to tamp all of the sparks down a little bit so that we can get to the heart of the matter and actually resolve the thing. But we’re so impatient. We want to yell. We want to argue. We want to be right. Those are my computers in conflict. Someone’s going to lose and it’s not going to be me, right? So understanding.

John Jantsch (18:26)

Yes.

Dr. Amber Wright (18:28)

There’s such thing as time, place and manner for everything, but just kind of also then making a point to say, I didn’t really enjoy what happened in the meeting the other day. Things got heated. Can we circle back and come back to this tomorrow at two o’clock and have a discussion about it when we’ve been able to both think about our differing perspectives. But, you know, that takes more effort than sometimes we have the time to give.

John Jantsch (18:51)

So you’re saying name calling is like off the table. Is that what you’re saying?

Dr. Amber Wright (18:54)

If you want to, you write that in your journal. Write the name calling in your journal. That’s where you can tell yourself the whole truth. Just for you and you alone.

John Jantsch (19:02)

All right, so I’m going to put you on the spot. What is your favorite question to ask somebody, particularly maybe somebody you’re just meeting for the first time?

Dr. Amber Wright (19:13)

It’s the question that I used earlier, what’s the best part of, what’s been the best part of your day today? Because you’re gonna get a different answer every time. So I’m gonna ask you that if I can. What’s been the best part of your day today, John?

John Jantsch (19:17)

Yeah, you know, I live in the mountains, and we got about eight inches of snow last night and, I just think that, well, it’s, it’s pretty magical to wake up and have eight inches of snow if, unless you just really don’t like it.

Dr. Amber Wright (19:30)

Wow. There you have that. I love that. And that then is going to come from me to ask you more questions like, wow, you know, how do you manage living? Exactly. You got it.

John Jantsch (19:45)

That’s right. I’ve invited you now, right, instead of you prying. Instead of you prying. Absolutely. Well, Amber, it was awesome having you take a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there someplace you’d invite people to connect with you and learn more about your work?

Dr. Amber Wright (20:02)

Absolutely. The hub of all things, Dr. Amber Wright is wordswellsaid.com. I’m also active on LinkedIn. If you search for my full name, Dr. Amber Wright, you’ll see me there, my little pink sweater. So definitely connect with me there. And I’ve had such a good time talking to you today.

John Jantsch (20:19)

Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you taking a few moments and maybe we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Dr. Amber Wright (20:25)

Not in snow in the mountains.

John Jantsch (20:29)

Not everyone’s cup of tea, that’s for sure.

Dr. Amber Wright (20:32)

Absolutely. Thank you, John.

Why You Should (Never) Play It Safe

Why You Should (Never) Play It Safe written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Chase Jarvis

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Chase Jarvis. Chase Jarvis is an award-winning artist, entrepreneur, and one of the past decade’s most influential photographers. He’s created campaigns for major brands like Apple, Nike, and Red Bull, and directed Portrait of a City, earning an Emmy nomination. His fine art has been showcased globally, and he contributed to the Pulitzer-winning Snowfall story in The New York Times.

As a tech innovator, Jarvis created Best Camera, the first photo-based social networking app, and wrote the bestseller Creative Calling. He also founded CreativeLive, an online learning platform acquired by Fiverr in 2021, where over 50 million students have honed their creative skills.

In his new book Never Play It Safe, Jarvis dives deep into the power of safety and focused attention as key drivers of success. We examine strategies for conquering self-doubt, uncover the transformative impact of play in our lives, and underscore the essential role of practice in mastering any skill. Jarvis passionately reminds us that life’s most rewarding experiences often await beyond the boundaries of our comfort zones and urges us to focus intently on what truly matters.

Key Takeaways:

Safety is often a construct that holds us back.
What we focus on defines our reality.
Attention is a superpower that shapes our experiences.
Self-talk is crucial; we must be kind to ourselves.
Playfulness is essential for creativity and joy.
Everyone starts as a beginner; it’s part of the journey.
Success is often a result of consistent practice.
Practices and habits are crucial to achieving our goals.
Unfortunately we are influenced by those who have given up on their dreams.
We must challenge societal norms about success and safety.

Chapters:

[00:00] Introduction to Chase Jarvis and His Journey
[02:51] Defining Safety and Its Impact on Creativity
[05:50] The Role of Attention in Achieving Success
[08:49] Overcoming Self-Doubt and Imposter Syndrome
[11:59] The Importance of Play in Life and Work
[14:54] The Power of Practice in Mastery
[17:57] Conclusion and Where to Find Chase Jarvis

More About Chase Jarvis:

Check out Chase Jarvis‘s Website
Connect with Chase Jarvis on LinkedIn
Grab a copy of Never Play It Safe: A Practical Guide to Freedom, Creativity, and a Life You Love

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by: Oracle

Nobody does data better than Oracle. Train your AI models at twice the speed and less than half of the cost of other clouds. If you want to do more and spend less, take a free test drive at Oracle.

Duct Tape Transcript

(01:02): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Chase Jarvis. He’s an award-winning artist entrepreneur. In one of the past decades most influential photographers, he created campaigns for major brands like Apple, Nike, and Red Bull, and directed Portrait of a City earning an Emmy nomination. He’s also a founder of Creative Live, an online learning platform acquired by Fiverr in 2021, which where over 50 million students have honed their creative skills. But he’s out with a new book called Never Play It Safe, A Practical Guide to Freedom, creativity, and a Life You Love. So Chase, welcome back to the show.

Chase Jarvis (01:46): John, thanks for hosting. It’s nice to see your face. It’s been a little bit,

John Jantsch (01:49): It’s been a little bit, I have fond memories of Creative Live.

Chase Jarvis (01:54): I

John Jantsch (01:54): Got to do two shows there. It was a lot of fun. You really did something very significant there. Well,

Chase Jarvis (01:59): Thank you. Those were impactful shows that you put together and grateful to have had you on the platform. That was certainly ahead of its time, and it was fun to see the world finally recognized. What would that be? About 12 years after we started the company that, wow, hey, online learning is a really, it’s a big thing. Who knew? Yeah, it’s fun to be on the other side of that as well. That was acquired in 21 as you said, and I got to rest a little bit goof off. And then when I thought, what do I really want to spend my time doing? It was very much writing a little bit about the lessons I’d learned along the way and that gave birth to never play it safe.

John Jantsch (02:37): So as an author, I know that certainly authors and publishers pick apart titles every word in a title. Right? So let’s start, I know this is a crazy question, but how do you define safety, especially safety that holds people back, right?

Chase Jarvis (02:51): Sure, yeah. It’s important to acknowledge that this is not about belts and sunscreen. It’s not about emotional or physical safety. All of things are very important in life. The kind of safety that I’m talking about when I take on this book, this topic is the kind of safety that keeps us stuck living the lives that other people are trying to prescribe for us. The thing that is on this side of our fear and our comfort zone, and part of the reason that I ended up working on this particular book and titling the book as such is I realized when I sort of deconstructed my own experiences and having had a show and a podcast of my own where I’ve done more than a thousand episodes and many of our mutual friends are some of the world’s most creative and talented entrepreneurial people. And it turned out that when I sort of did the research on myself and folks like you and others, that man, everybody reports that all of the best stuff in their lives was on the other side of risk, on the other side of discomfort.

(03:51): So I started to ask the question, well, how can we get better at reliably going there? The word, the sort of analog is safety, because when we are taking risks or we are outside of our comfort zone, we feel unsafe sometimes in our head, mostly in our head, a little bit less in our body. But how do we get good at going there if all the best stuff in life is over there? So that was the topic of the book and how I think about the term safety. Again, the title of a book is meant to get you to pick it up, and it is, I want to make sure that people know it’s like, Hey, seat belts are real sunscreen’s. Good, let’s keep up with that stuff, but let’s, how do we get at the best stuff in life?

John Jantsch (04:31): It’s sort of playing small.

Chase Jarvis (04:33): We get

John Jantsch (04:34): Talking

Chase Jarvis (04:35): Out of living our dreams by people who’ve given up on theirs. So we end up taking advice from the wrong subset of people, the people who haven’t done what we want to do or people who are themselves afraid for us. And sometimes this is our parents, our career counselors, our peers, they have great intentions in mind, which is what makes it tricky and why so many of us fall short of our potential. There’s no evil overlord. Someone is not out there trying to keep you down. People want you to be safe, but what they’re really talking you out of is the safety, the fear that they have for if you took that chance and went after that career that only 1% of the world has. Or it turns out though, that’s again where the best stuff is and how most of us are going to feel most alive.

John Jantsch (05:23): And I wonder since this wasn’t my original question, but since you went down that path, I mean is some of that fear, especially a lot of times, like you said, they wouldn’t do that leap, but is there also a fear that you’ll be more than me, that you won’t need me anymore? I mean, is that the genesis of some of that

Chase Jarvis (05:44): Advice? It is, and it’s generally not. I think people that, especially people that are close to us, they want the best for us, but just their understanding of what is the best for us is filtered through their own filter of what’s good for them or their perception of what’s good for us. So most of those things, while you make a very valid point that some people, this is usually in the peer landscape,

(06:09): Don’t want us to leave them in the dust and go on some grand adventure when they chose to play it safe. But I think the takeaway is that there’s so many inbounds, so many inputs to our decision frameworks and processes, and it’s really managing those inputs and categorizing them appropriately that this book is about. It’s like no one’s out to wants you to live small and most of the people that are giving you advice love you very much. And still the cultural message is we celebrate people who’ve taken great risk and have helped move culturally. Society, technologically, conceptually, artistically helped us move forward, and yet we’re reluctant to take those steps in our own lives. So this is really about how do we untangle the programming and in the same way that we’re largely talked out of our creativity, you know, can walk into any first grade classroom and say, who wants to come to the front of the room and draw me a picture?

(07:12): Every hand goes up. So we get talked out of that stuff, this awareness that we are creative and it’s very similar. We get talked out of our dreams by people who think we should be all the things that their parents and the generation before, and that’s what our aspirations should be. So this is like, wait a minute, who are you to define my aspirations? Realizing that we get again talked into or out of so many of these things and how do we both acknowledge and maintain our own sort of independence and get to do the things in life that really light us up?

John Jantsch (07:50): So the book is arranged around seven, what you call levers, and I was on an AM radio show one time for one of my books, and the host had clearly not read a word of the book. And so they’re doing the interview and he goes, chapter two is called this, tell me about that. And I’ve hesitate to do that, but your book, your titles, your levers all start with one word. And I feel like we could do an entire show on tell me about attention

Chase Jarvis (08:14): Because

John Jantsch (08:16): I mean, it is pretty obvious the way you’ve arranged it. These are things that hold people up. And so I would suggest, because you call it the superpower, that attention is kind of the linchpin to starting this whole process.

Chase Jarvis (08:30): It really is. And yeah, thanks for inviting the reader to know a little bit or the listener to know a little bit about essentially when I deconstructed my successes and failures and the successes and failures of so many of our peers and friends and ordinary people who’ve lived extraordinary lives, there’s a very clear pattern that a handful of things, the same thing sort of creativity that I mentioned earlier that are native within us, but that we sort of give up on or get talked out of by just cultures messaging that man, if we actually just paid attention to some of these things and reconnected with these parts of ourselves, that’s what people who have really tapped into the best stuff in life, that’s all they’re doing. So I do trot out there’s seven levers, seven tools that live net natively within us. And the most important, and the first one in the book is attention because whether, I guess we’re largely taught to get attention, that’s how you stand out and that’s how your business becomes successful.

(09:34): That’s how you find a mate. And yet what we know about attention is that the people who are the best in the world at directing attention, at focusing at paying attention to what matters to them and what is important and can eshoo distractions and are eshoo the things that aren’t important or will make a difference in success or failure or fulfillment, that’s actually where the gold is. Because what we pay attention to literally defines the experience that we have of life. And I gave a really very challenging and heartfelt difficult example in the book Viktor Frankl, if you may be familiar with his work, he wrote an amazing book called Man’s Search for Meeting, which was about his time in 1942 in a concentration camp. And man’s search for meeting is a master class, a master work in what you pay attention to defines your existence.

(10:30): Now Viktor Frankl was in the middle of the most horrific thing that humanity may have ever known and is managing through. He’s a professional trained psychologist, so he’s got some additional skills above and beyond what our normal skill rate is, but he’s unable to have an experience that is filled with meaning and connection even in the most difficult circumstances. Now, fortunately for everyone who’s listening to this, you are not in that situation and yet it’s still true, like what you pay attention to where you direct your attention, it is the experience of your life. If you think things are hard and the world is difficult because all you’re doing is glued to social media, then that’s what your experience is going to be. By contrast, if you spend time doing what you love around people who care about you and in a connected community and get a healthy dose of nature, then you’re going to have a different experience of life so that we can control. That is what I’m calling attention to and that this is a trainable, it’s a skill that we ought to stay connected with.

John Jantsch (11:40): AI might be the most important new computer technology ever. It’s storming every industry and literally billions of dollars are being invested. So buckle up. The problem is that AI needs a lot of speed and processing power. So how do you compete without cost spiraling out of control? It’s time to upgrade to the next generation of the cloud. Oracle Cloud infrastructure or O-C-I-O-C-I is a single platform for your infrastructure, database, application development, and AI needs. OCI has four to eight times the bandwidth of other clouds offers one consistent price instead of a variable regional pricing. And of course, nobody does data better than Oracle. So now you can train your AI models at twice the speed and less than half of the cost of other clouds. If you want to do more and spend less like Uber eight by eight and Databricks Mosaic, take a free test drive@ociatoracle.com slash duct tape. That’s oracle.com/duct tape oracle.com/duct tape. You see on social media, as you mentioned all the time, people posing the idea of imposter syndrome, which is really to me is sort of saying, I don’t trust myself or I mean, how much of that do you see playing a role that there’s almost like a self-sabotage that goes on because I don’t trust myself enough to actually do this thing, so I’m going to distract myself with something else.

Chase Jarvis (13:09): It’s so true, John, and I think it’s a smart point to bring up in the book. I frame it as such that, but the world does some dirty work on us by telling us the things that we should be and what we should do and whatnot, but we actually do the dirtiest work on ourselves. The most important words that we say are the ones that we say to ourselves and to me being able, this goes hand in hand with attention. What messages are we giving ourselves? Of course, if the world wants us to be either accountants or doctors or lawyers, when we really want to be a YouTuber, an artist or a race car driver, I’m not articulating one is more virtuous than the other, but there are dominant paradigms and if we buy into that and start telling ourselves stories about who we were yesterday and what we can possibly do achieve or how we can be connected or fulfilled in this life, then again, we are the ones that we’re in conversations with most, right between our ears.

(14:19): So the goal in learning to pay attention or to direct attention is that what you feed yourself matters and choosing to feed yourself not junk food is out. It has a tremendous downstream effect on what’s possible with our one precious life. So as you mentioned, imposter syndrome and there’s all sorts of other, I guess, related things that, look, we can’t pretend that these things don’t exist, but what if we developed the muscle that when we made a mistake, it wasn’t that we talked so nasty to ourselves, but what if of ourselves as experience, what kind encouraging thing would we say like, Hey, that’s not like me. Next time I’m faced with this, I’m going to do X instead of Y. That’s how we would talk to our friends, and yet we don’t have that relationship with ourselves way too often. So this particular chapter is trying to get us to realize words matter, what we say to ourselves, matter matters, and that we’re actually in charge of that.

(15:22): Whether we think so or not, the world is happening for us and it’s our job to do what we can get in the driver’s seat and pay attention to the things that truly do matter. What if you started, there’s that famous exercise and we’ll play it here for anyone who if as soon as you get the gig, then stop playing and listen. If you haven’t played before, then follow along and it goes like this. Look around wherever you are right now and notice for me take 10 seconds and count everything in your field of view. That’s red. Go ahead now just look around and count everything in your field of view. That’s red and you’re kind of going, okay, 1, 2, 3, 4. I mean right now the truth is you’re even calling things that are sort of rust. You’re calling them red too to do as many things as you can to chalk up all the things you’re looking for.

(16:12): Now the question is how many blue things did you see? And you’re like, wait a minute. That’s the punchline. You see exactly the things that you’re looking for. So how does that extend had we extend this metaphor to our lives? Well, what we pay attention to and what we’re looking for, what messages we are telling ourselves between our ears really, really matters downstream to what we see in the experience that we have. So if you can decide that you’re going to be open to a universe of colors or that you are especially going to look for things that light you up rather than the blueprint, as I mentioned earlier, that social media might have us believe or an imposter syndrome would have us believe, then that’s what you’re going to see. So how do we get out of the backseat, get into the driver’s seat, and again, the phrase that stop playing it safe because the world wants you to be safe. Your biology thinks that in choosing to become a YouTuber or to pursue your passion or to eshoo the, let’s call it the career that your career counselor or that your parents wanted for you, that’s somehow riskier. But the truth is it’s all risky. How risky is it to park the desires that you have for this one precious life until it’s too late? I would say that’s the ultimate risk.

John Jantsch (17:30): So a lot of two people when they decide, I’m not going to play it safe, I’m going to go all in, right? I’m going to go for it. Sometimes that leads to blinded like I’m on the goal, nothing else matters. And lever five is play the most important work we do. And I would suggest, especially since you’ve called it the most important work we do, it’s probably the one that people counterintuitively forget.

Chase Jarvis (17:53): Absolutely. And what I like to think about in terms of that is success leaves clues. So think about the time, and this is, anyone can do this right now, while if you’re sitting in traffic or walking on the walking path or on, you’re at the gym with us in your ears right now. Think about the times where you felt the most lit up, the happiest, most playful, the highest version of yourselves. I promise you there was levity in your day-to-day in moment to moment, there was joy, there was connection. And yet whether this is our puritanical roots or the culture, this work hard culture, this grindy culture that we have become a part of or that’s memeable on social media, it ignores that playful part of ourselves and that’s playfulness and joy. That’s the engine of life. It truly is. And the world might have you believe otherwise that the tortured artist is really where the best work comes from.

(18:54): And yet look at the people who’ve had really long, fruitful, rich, connected careers and have been doing what they’re doing for a really long time. This joy, this playfulness, it can be brought to anything even to work. Again, watch an 8-year-old, you say, okay, it’s time to pick up your toys. And they might be disappointed that they’ve got to pick up at their toys, but they’re going to make room noises while they’re running around the room, grabbing the toys and picking up their stuff. That’s our natural state is to seek, find and engage in play. And yet as an adult, we somehow disconnect from that thinking that, oh, it’s all about work and play is something that we only do after all of the work is done. Well, let me tell you, there’s never a time where all of the work is done. So do not deny this great state that it pays dividends to be in for some future time that never comes.

John Jantsch (19:50): So you’re not supposed to have favorites, I suppose. But my favorite is practice. And the reason, I mean, that sounds really boring, the grunt work, right? But you have a set of principles in there that I think by themselves really are a masterclass. And I think a lot of people, I was talking to somebody who’s a writing coach and he said, you won’t believe how many people show up and say, I want to write a fiction book, but I’ve never written one. I’ve never taken any classes I’ve never practiced. And it’s like, no, it’s all practice and it’s being okay with being really bad, but that’s not what people want to hear. It’s like I want the magic pill. But to me it’s my favorite because I think it really is what brings it to the heart.

Chase Jarvis (20:32): Absolutely. And there’s nothing like if you can’t be willing to look foolish beginning something, then you will do nothing because we’re all terrible at everything when we start out. Think of how basic, if you had an able-bodied child watching them learn to walk,

(20:53): It looks like it’s the most difficult thing in the world. And yet we all walk around completely unconscious. If you’re an able-bodied person and without thinking about it and everything, including something as basic as that takes practice, why then would we think that that career we want the outcomes that artistic, the master work of fiction that we completed, why would we think that we could somehow become, do that without a whole lot of stumbling and some really important good foundational habits, IE practices to go with it? And the reason there are manyfold, but one is that now we can see the best in the world do their thing effortlessly at any time by just picking up our phone, staring at it for five minutes. You don’t see the iceberg of work underneath the surface. You just see someone who’s the best in the world that unlike thousands of years ago when we were in tribes and we watched someone start to not know how to hunt, then to become the best hunter in the tribe, we watched it with our own eyes and it made sense to us. Now we just see what appears to be effortless brilliance everywhere. Well, I’ll tell you what, underpins every person you look up to, admire, appreciate for the things that they have done or the people they’ve become in their life is a set of really profound, often very basic practices that they’ve put into play and that’s available to you. It’s just understanding what practices, what habits are going to get you to your desired outcomes.

John Jantsch (22:27): Well, chase, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. It is always so great to visit with you. Another excellent book. Where would you invite people to connect with you or certainly find a copy of Play It Safe,

Chase Jarvis (22:41): Never Play It Safe is available everywhere books are sold and Amazon will ship it to you wherever you are. If you can support your local, that’s cool too. And I’m just Chase Jarvis everywhere on the internet. So Instagram, YouTube, Twitter x, I don’t know what they call it anymore, but I’m just Chase Jarvis everywhere. I’d love to connect with you. I’ve got a popular email newsletter if you like, these tidy bits. But John, just hat tip to you for running such a tight ship and building the community that you have over there. And I love Duct tape and grateful to always be welcome to feel welcome here and to be a guest on the show. Thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (23:15): Alright, well again, thanks for stopping by and hopefully we’ll see you one of these days out there on the road.