nadosi.com

John Jantsch (00:01.272)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and no guests today. I’m going to do a solo show. I’m going to talk about a topic that I’m seeing a lot of angst around. A lot of people asking questions. You’ve got people saying it is dead. You’ve got people saying, no, it’s not dead. It’s just changing. I’m talking about search engine optimization today. SEO. SEO has been a marketer’s friend.

I mean, you think about that somebody who wants to buy something goes out types into Google, lands on your website, right? a lot of people are seeing that Google’s changing the way that they’re returning search. You got this thing called zero click, which basically means that Google’s giving them all the answers on the Google homepage and no reason to click away to your website to find the answer. you’re getting AI overviews, that truly outline.

Lots of options for the answer. And so what people are seeing is a dramatic drop in organic search to their websites. But here’s the thing I’ve noticed. A lot of that traffic wasn’t very useful anyway. It was people looking for answers to things, how to do things. They weren’t looking to buy something from us. They just wanted to find the content and hey, marketers were more than happy to produce the content. So don’t panic.

they, the, the drop in traffic, if you’ve seen it, doesn’t mean that SEO is dead. it does definitely mean that there needs to be a new playbook. kind of the, the, I’m going to go over, I think five or six, kind of approaches that I think, I can’t remember how many years, five, no, six, six approaches that I think we need to be thinking about taking, right now. So, and I’m going to kind of do old SEO versus new SEO, just to kind of frame each of these approaches. So.

The first one is we need to get away from this idea of keyword rankings. That was like the big thing. That was the holy grail of SEO was, you on page one for X amount of searches? What we need to think in terms about now is search presence and visibility, right? So the old way was track a fixed list of 10 to 20 keywords, try to get just obsess over getting page one rankings. And a lot of people did that by writing thin

John Jantsch (02:24.974)

kind of over-optimized content that was the only goal was to rank. So the new model is to think in terms of total impressions, not just the top 10 spots, because today’s search is not a three-word, four-word search. It’s a long phrase, you know, what we used to call long tail searches. And so…

Having a lot of that high intent long-term search is still okay, even if you are not ranking for page one for that thing you really want to rank for. Google Search Console, I’m going to mention it a bunch of times, is a tool that you should get to know. You should get really friendly with because it’s got a lot of the answers to what we need to be doing today. Measuring click-through rate, which is something that is a metric inside of the Google Search Console.

to look at branded search growth and what is called query diversity, meaning you’re ranking for lots of things. Like one page might actually not rank highly for a high intent search, but it might actually rank for 30 or 40. I’ve seen some 100 different types of searches that are the kinds of things people are putting in. They’re not putting them in in any volume, but they still add up to a lot of traffic to a specific page. And when you start then saying,

that traffic coming to this page is getting X click through rate because people are actually looking for my brand. That’s a much, much better way to think in terms of, of search presence and visibility. So let me give you a tactic example. Use Google search goals. Use Google search console to identify hundreds of low impression, long tail queries, like I’ve been talking about, and then build content clusters.

groupings of blog posts around those and then you can measure growth and not just not just rank and position. All right number two. Don’t worry if some of this starts to get technical we do it all for you. So if I’ll give you an option we’ve created something we call the search visibility system which is our new approach to SEO. So I want to let you know we know how to do it in case you want us to do it for you. How’s that? But everything I’m talking about you

John Jantsch (04:43.982)

can figure out and do yourself. So number two, we’re going to have to embrace AI for content. I think that’s just a given. There are some things that it does far better than humans, but we have to do it carefully because your brand, your stories, your case studies, your voice, your tone, all of that is you. That’s the human part of it. But there’s a great deal of the research of the ideation that can be done and should be done, quite frankly, using these tools.

You know, tools like chat, GPT, you know, Jasper, you know, is another one for content as well. You’re going to put on the strategy, the trust building, you’re going to, you’re going to do the UX still. You’re going to how it looks is going to be up to you. The readability is going to be up to you, but the ideation creating outlines. tell you one thing that is awesome at doing is FAQs. So any content that you produce, anything that you read, you can actually produce the FAQs.

You can answer the FAQs in your voice, in your tone, actually with your brand. Put your brand into those and you start when people start saying, what’s the best brand for X? You’ll start to see some traction around that.

So instead of writing 50 blog posts, one detailed guide on a real, you know, client interview, then use AI, spin that into FAQs, videos, Google business page content. Don’t worry. You know, if you have to write strategic content and then you do that with it, it’s going to pay so many more dividends than just writing those 50 blog posts.

All right, if you are a local business, meaning most of your business comes in a town, in a community, this is definitely for you.

John Jantsch (06:36.546)

That search isn’t going away. That search, if somebody is in a town and Google knows they’re in a town searching for a certain type of product or service, a very high intent, let’s say you’re a remodeling contractor, somebody says best remodeling contractor, they don’t even have to put the name of their town in there, Google knows it, right? So doubling down on local and reputation SEO is going to be extremely, extremely important moving forward. Maybe it’ll go away in two years, but right now.

is going to be extremely important for local businesses. So treat your Google business profile, not as a listing, but really more like a publishing platform all by itself. It gives you tremendous opportunity to publish your reviews, obviously they go there, but also a blog post or just little snippets of things, know, little abstracts of your blog posts, images can be put there. So think about it as more like a

a publishing platform. that ought to be, you ought to pay as much attention to that, if not more sometimes than your own website, quite frankly. Build content that answers local questions. Look at what people do. When you search for one of these terms for your local community, look underneath there at what people also ask, questions that people also ask. So again, going back to the remodeling contractor, what’s the best

countertop, you know, for kitchens today or something somebody might ask. Well, they’re also going to be under that six or seven other questions that people ask. Your FAQ should be addressing all of those. can put them in your Google business page. They don’t care what you publish there. Optimize, you know, location pages, structured data, citations, all the things that that help you show up when people say near me, you’ve probably done that kind of search, right? Mexican restaurant near me. That that all happens.

You know, some of its proximity, obviously, if it is near you, that’s going to show up. But, you know, for other categories, I mean, there are thousands of restaurants, right? But for other categories, maybe it’s an estate attorney or something. Well, there aren’t thousands of those in a community. So you can do a lot over and above proximity by really focusing on that.

John Jantsch (08:54.624)

If you are working with an agency, they better be thinking, asking you about review acquisition, about responding to Q and A’s, about publishing weekly updates and posts on your Google business profiles. I mean, that’s, if you’re doing it yourself, that needs to be your kind of weekly checklist. All right. Number four, prioritizing intent based SEO over volume based SEO. Okay. What do I mean by that?

intent base is clearly a search somebody puts in when they’re looking to buy. mean, that is different than a search when somebody’s trying to say, you know, what’s the safest car I could buy? That’s just kind of those things, you know, lots of volume for them, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re looking for, you know, your particular product or service. So, you know, the bottom line is, regardless of what any SEO company tells you, mean, traffic doesn’t matter.

Unless it leads to trust, engagement and conversion. That’s what you need to worry about. So high intent traffic is certainly competitive, but you know that if you spend your time and effort there, it’s more likely to turn into conversion. So what we do when we work with folks is we want to map all kinds of content to the customer journey. for us, we use something called the marketing hourglass. You’ve probably heard me talk about it as seven stages, no like trust.

Try by, repeat, and refer. And the thing about those stages is those are behaviors that people go through when they’re trying to find a business and engage with a business and then actually do business with that business. And so what we know is that their objectives at each of those stages, their questions at each of those stages, the challenges or what they’re trying to accomplish at each of those stages, it changes. And so should your content.

Make sure that you are not just producing content that gets people to find you, but once they find you, it builds trust. It actually allows them to try maybe what it might be like to work with you or to understand your business, to understand your culture at your organization, all the things that they’re going to lead to them kind of checking those boxes and getting their questions answered at each of those stages. So.

John Jantsch (11:12.066)

build a service page for what you do, but then also create a supporting blog post, a case study, an FAQ. Certainly make sure that you have CTAs on those, calls actions, book a call, whatever it is. All of it optimized for intent. All of it focused on that person that if they land there, there’s a pretty good chance that they’re looking to buy. And that’s different than somebody that you’re just trying to rank for some term that gets you traffic.

So it’s a different mindset in the content that you focus on building. Again, we’ve gone through about a decade period of content for content sake to try to get eyeballs. And now what we’re trying to do is understand the journey that people are on. Link building is number five. It certainly was an aspect, is an aspect still of SEO. Anybody who talks to you about SEO is gonna talk about backlinks or link building. But instead of thinking about link building,

I think we need to reframe that as brand authority building. know, the way people used to do it before was guest blog posts or shady directories that they’d be in or even cold outreach. I mean, I get it all the time. People writing saying here, link to me for whatever reason. So the whole focus was volume, right? Volume of backlinks. The truth of the matter is now,

Google doesn’t even pay that much attention to backlinks, particularly the ones that it doesn’t see as very authoritative. So you’re have hundreds of backlinks and they may view 20 or 30 of them as being valuable at all. So putting effort into just getting random volume of backlinks is something that’s been going away for years, but it’s just absolutely silly now to do because it’s a waste of time. In fact, it may even send some negative signals.

So the new strategy is all about earned media, podcast guesting, PR partnerships, strategic relationships with related industry players. That’s the type of thing that is going to really be a valuable backlink. I post, I publish a podcast, right? Every guest that comes on my podcast, I link back to their show. give them, if they tell me some freebie they have, I’ll probably link back to that.

John Jantsch (13:33.566)

It’s branded because we mentioned their name. We mentioned the company name quite often in that. so that type of backlink is probably the most valuable backlink you can get. A bonus is that we give, I mean, the podcast gets some exposure. Maybe they actually get a client because they heard them on that. It is amazing content. You can take that content from being a guest on a blog or on a podcast and you can republish it. You can cut it up into a hundred social media snippets. So

It is, um, it is the number one, um, backlink that, that I think you should, uh, really be trying to acquire and just to cold out, uh, um, pitch here, I think so strongly of it that I actually own a podcast booking, uh, service. So if you want to get on some podcasts, podcast bookers.com would be an option for getting these types of backlinks that I talked about. And frankly, you can get.

four or five podcast backlinks for the, you know, what somebody would charge you to get probably a bunch of dubious backlinks. So no more guest blog posting, get your clients interviewed on niche podcasts, you’d be on a podcast, get cited in the local news. look for these links that carry brand equity. Don’t worry about page rank or authority anymore. From that standpoint, it’s all about brand. All right. And then the last one, and this is really,

for agencies, but if you have an agency that you work with, know, vanity reporting is something that I think drives a lot of businesses crazy. You know, rankings, traffic, bounce rate, keyword movement. You know, these were all the things that sounded good. In some cases they looked good because they were going the right direction. But what did they amount to for you? So today, long tail queries, your search impression growth.

is now more important. So collectively, what are all the impressions that you’re getting? Your click-through rates by intent category, branded versus non-branded, but particularly branded click-through rates, you want to improve those. You want reporting on those because those really tell the story that you are actually getting the right kind of traffic. Obviously, leads, engagement, email opt-ins, form submissions, phone calls,

John Jantsch (15:56.118)

I that’s what you want to see grow, right? mean, because that’s a pretty darn good indication that there’s not only high intent, but that you’re going to actually get some conversion out of that. So if you’re an agency, I challenge you to start showing clients their search visibility and trust indicators are growing and not just whether they rank for plumber in their city. So those are my…

six, was speaking to both businesses and agencies there because a lot of businesses hire agencies. So if any of this made sense, but you’re thinking, great, how do I do this, John? Happy to help you. Love for you to ask us about our search visibility system, which no shocker here is built around strategy first. So there’s no sense in creating any kind of

visibility or SEO play, you know, without actually building that on a solid foundation of what you’re, you’re who you’re trying to attract, what you do that’s different, your core brand promise, all those things have to be built around that. And then no matter what you have to have content. So we’re going to help you build not only helpful content, but we’re going to help you build these content clusters as we call them or hub pages. You’ve got to

If you’re local business, you definitely need to focus on Google business and your local SEO optimization becoming more important than ever. We, I love Google search console and I think there are so many, it’s the most underutilized tool. It’s free. And it’s the most underutilized tool. And there are so many nuggets and insights that you can gain from there. So we definitely mine that.

to really direct a lot of what we do and then really work on your reputation, authority building and give you reporting that’s actually going to tell an accurate story. if you’re listening to this and you want to know more, it’s just John at ductapemarketing.com or just visit our website. You can book an appointment with.

John Jantsch (18:03.7)

somebody that can really kind of walk you through what strategy first looks like, how we’re employing AI as part of all of this. And, and maybe, this idea of how to think differently about SEO. you’re an agency, this is something that we teach and licensed to a lot of agencies as well. So hopefully that was useful for today. I’m going to actually be harping on this idea. In fact, I’m going to do a full show on Google search console, as well. So you might want to tune in for that. So.

Thanks for listening. Love those reviews. Love any feedback. It’s just John at DucktapeMarketing.com and hopefully we’ll see you one of these days out there on the road.

Win by Focusing on Your Core Users

Win by Focusing on Your Core Users written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Shane Murphy-Reuter

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Shane Murphy-Reuter, President of Go-To-Market at Calendly. Calendly, best known for revolutionizing scheduling software, is now redefining its space by expanding deeper into relationship management and SMB tools without losing sight of its core value: simplifying time.

During our conversation, Shane shared the behind-the-scenes strategy behind Calendly’s evolution—from a simple time management tool to an intelligent, AI-powered business automation platform. As the company scales, its unwavering focus on serving solopreneurs, SMBs, and customer-centric roles like sales and coaching has set it apart in a saturated SaaS market. Shane emphasized the importance of aligning sales, marketing, and customer experience—a key piece of Calendly’s GTM strategy that supports sustainable SaaS growth.

Key Takeaways:

Customer Obsession Wins: Calendly’s success is rooted in its deep understanding of time-sensitive professionals like coaches, therapists, and salespeople—its most fervent users.
Grow Without Diluting: Rather than chasing every trend, Calendly avoids becoming a “one-trick pony” by strategically expanding within its strongest customer base.
Enterprise Can Still Be Personal: Even as it moves into enterprise scheduling, Calendly maintains the simplicity and flexibility that made it popular with individuals.
Smart Product Expansion: By anchoring new offerings in its scheduling core and enhancing them with AI, Calendly innovates while staying true to its mission.
Blending Sales Models: Shane discussed merging product-led growth with a tailored sales approach—ensuring that customers get value whether they click “buy now” or engage a sales rep.
Category Creation + Innovation: Calendly isn’t just a tool; it’s shaping how modern professionals manage relationships and time—key pillars of any successful business.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing Shane Murphy-Reuter
[00:51] Extending Your Core Business
[04:47] How Hyperfocus Protects Your Business
[06:51] Find your Unique Advantage
[10:28] Messaging for Clients with Different Needs
[15:05] Shifting Mindset to Deal with Growth
[17:00] Incentivizing Sales Teams
[19:00] How Will AI Effect Scheduling Software

More About Shane Murphy-Reuter:

Check out Shane Murphy-Reuter’s Website
Connect with Shane Murphy-Reuter on LinkedIn

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.93)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Shane Murphy-Reuter. He’s the president and go-to-market. I guess you just call that GTM, don’t you? At Calendly, the platform helping individuals, teams, and organizations create better meeting experiences by simplifying complex scheduling. He’s focused on driving brand awareness and demand by ensuring alignment between sales.

marketing and CX. So Shane, welcome to the show.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (00:32.607)

Great to be here. Yes, we shorten it to GTM, but call it whatever you want. Yeah, no, it’s awesome to be your big fan of the show. So great to talk.

John Jantsch (00:41.07)

Thank you. So I’m going to talk about, I’m going to ask this question in the context of Calendly, but I think that this applies really to a lot of businesses out there. I Calendly started as a small idea of a technology for scheduling, just scheduling. And it’s certainly grown to something much bigger. That’s something that I think happens to a lot of companies you want to talk a little bit about. I know you’re

You haven’t been there from the beginning, but you want to talk a little bit about the evolution of that thinking in Calendly?

Shane Murphy-Reuter (01:13.087)

Yeah, of course. Well, I’ve actually only been at Calendly now, I think four months. I like to write it down, know, the expectations are lower. And so, yeah, I haven’t seen the journey from inside, but actually I’ve known Tope for, who’s the CEO of Calendly for about five or six years. You know, I’ve been very much watching it from the sidelines. And I would say also, if you look at my background, the companies that I tend to join are at a very similar stage to Calendly where

they’ve invented some new technology to solve some sort of pain point for a customer type and then have that exponential growth when they sort of like crack the market a little bit to get that product market fit. And then they start to think about, where maybe growth is starting to slow a little bit in that original market and where to go from here. And I think Calendly has been on that journey. Originally,

John Jantsch (01:51.778)

Mm-hmm.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (02:03.561)

we solved just that scheduling problem, that one problem around how do two people schedule meetings together. And it’s been very, very successful. But now the question is, well, how do you extend from here? And I think a lot of companies get that wrong, frankly. Like think there’s broadly two paths, right? You either take the technology that you’ve built and apply it to different markets.

John Jantsch (02:28.077)

Yes.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (02:28.409)

Or you take a target market or a customer segment that you have strength with with your original product and then extend the product offerings that you provide to those customers. And certainly, Canley’s strategy from here and hopefully very, very soon we’ll be launching our second major, major product is to really extend the products that we offer within a certain target market because we just believe there’s massive opportunity there to like.

solve other points in the relationship management lifecycle for our customers. it’s been, yeah, I’ve been here four months, but I think that the account is on like a pretty, classic journey that I’ve seen a lot of companies go through.

John Jantsch (03:07.394)

Do you, do you feel like you are on the journey to define a category or you have defined a category? You mentioned relationship management. I don’t know that people would have applied what, what Cowan Lee initially started doing to that term. mean, do feel like you’re, you’re categorizing, you know, a new way of working.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (03:24.641)

It’s a great question. think scheduling, our original product, we created the category, right? We are now basically the Kleenex for scheduling, which is amazing. I think the challenge though with it is different categories of different towns, right? Different total addressable markets. And I think for scheduling, it is a relatively narrow use case, right? Like it’s, while it’s extremely important for our customers, it’s narrow, but we have this incredible hook into the customer.

John Jantsch (03:28.034)

Yeah. Right.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (03:54.753)

How can we add more? And to be fair, I think for a go-forward strategy, we think about relationship management software more generally. No, I think the new areas that we’ll go into are existing categories like, I don’t want to give up our product roadmap, but you can imagine the types of other relationship management softwares that are out there, like the CRMs, et cetera. I think where our unique advantage is really in the customer types that we’ll go in service. And I think that we can

if we can build the software with hyper focus on kind of these SMBs and solopreneurs, I think that we can have great success relative to the incumbents that are in the market. So to answer the question more directly, I think we’ve done this category creation thing with scheduling and we’ll continue to hopefully dominate that market. From here though, I think it’s more about innovating within how we deliver in existing categories.

John Jantsch (04:52.974)

I’m sure you maybe talk about this in closed door meetings, maybe worry about it even sometimes, but how does a company like Calendar, especially in the early days when you essentially created a product that had a certain set of features and the Microsofts, the Googles of the world could easily squash that. You know, one day wake up and say, we’re going to do that. How do you kind of ward off that? do you worry about, again, I know you’ve grown to the point where,

You probably have more market share in scheduling than some of the big people that, you know, that could have done that. But do you ever sit around and worry about, Hey, we have to create more features or get more hooks in, so that we’re not just this one trick pony that gets squashed.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (05:36.421)

Yeah, that’s a great question. And for sure, I think if you look at it from the outside, you may imagine that something like scheduling is very, very easy to replicate. And I think this is where this hyper focus on your most fervent customers is so important. If you talk to the majority of our customers, their time is their money. A lot of them actually sell their time. If you’re a coach,

John Jantsch (06:03.032)

Sure.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (06:03.263)

you know, your therapist, et cetera. And then others are, if you’re in sales, like your time is how you get out there. And therefore an incredible scheduling experience is really important. So for sure, there are many competitors out there, lots of competitors, but because they just don’t have that hyper focus like we do around the true intricacies of the details of the problem set of our customers, they have not been able to compete. And for what it’s worth,

When we look at our data, for sure we’re hearing a little bit more about other competitors popping up as you would expect as any company scales. But in reality, it’s not impacted our business in the way that I think from the outside in you would expect. And so we actually think that we have a better opportunity to disrupt other incumbents than the other way around, given just how critically important this is for our customers. They’re not going to go and buy a slightly less

John Jantsch (06:53.304)

Yeah.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (07:01.419)

good product, they’re just not gonna do it, they want the best.

John Jantsch (07:04.962)

One of the things I’ve seen software companies do as they they grew is like, let’s take on this and this and let’s do email and let’s do the CRM part of it. And it makes a lot of sense, right? It’s like, I’ve got this end to end product, but then they make compromises in every single category because it’s very hard to have the one thing that fits all. mean, is there any danger you think in trying for somebody to actually start trying to take market share by adding

you know, more product that’s already out there and actually diluting what they’re good at.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (07:37.345)

is an absolute risk and one that you need to be extremely careful of. So every company I’ve worked at as we’ve gone on this multi-product journey, there is a constant debate around how much resource should you put into continuing to improve your core product versus how much should you put into new innovative areas. So it is a debate and we will never stop innovating on our core of scheduling. I do think though, as you think about like,

the product areas that you move into, the question has to be, what’s your unique advantage to win there? And I don’t like, I’ve seen companies just sort of go, we’re just going to go in there, we’re going to build in and say, well, okay, well, you really thought about the strategy and it can’t just be like a price thing, right? That’s not enough. And I think typically that unique advantage tends to come from, as I said before, one either is some sort of technology advantage that you have.

John Jantsch (08:12.792)

Yeah.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (08:33.375)

I’ll give an example of Webflow where I worked last. Webflow’s unique technology advantage was that built a way for you to manipulate code in a visual environment. Very easy for them to take that technology and move it beyond just building websites into how you build other types of technology. They have a technology advantage they can apply to different markets. For Calendly, think the reason Calendly has been so successful are two things. One,

I do think that we have a unique penetration within a type of customer that I mentioned before, that we really understand and can, as we go into these new areas, make sure that we’re addressing their unique needs for a new product. like cars, right, before it used to be Model T, any color you want as long as it’s black, which is fine when you’ve got a technology advantage like Henry Ford had. He had a technology advantage, so you mass market it.

John Jantsch (09:24.27)

you

Shane Murphy-Reuter (09:30.205)

Now that’s crazy because that technology advantage no longer exists. You have every million type of car for different types of very specific segments of the market. And so as we think about our go for product strategy, think some of it, I wouldn’t say we necessarily have a technology advantage, but I think that we have a data advantage in being so hooked so clearly into the customer’s most important thing, which is their time and the data around that.

And then we have a unique advantage, I think, in making sure that when we build those new product areas, they’re beautifully connected and integrated with scheduling and that we build for that segment. And we don’t try and build the Model T, we try and build a very, very, very tailored experience for the customer set that we know that we have the greatest right to win in. And for what it’s worth, we also believe that the incumbents in the relationship management software market have left that market behind. And so I think there’s a…

great opportunity for us to win. But back to the original question, yes, of course we need to balance and make sure that we’re not under-investing in our core. I use the phrase internally at companies that if you kill the cash cow, nobody gets milk. And so, yeah, you want to make sure that the core business, which is for us scheduling, continues to, we continue innovating.

John Jantsch (10:55.394)

One of the things that’s really tempting as companies grow to the size that Connolly has now, I mean, some of your original customers clicked on a button, signed up. It was just them in their house doing scheduling and it worked for them. It was awesome. It was easy, no friction. And now you’re starting to have enterprise con. That security and adoption and uptime and all these kinds of things really have to be sold.

How do you message first off? Let’s let we can talk about operationally as well, but how do you message to such distinctly different sales channels?

Shane Murphy-Reuter (11:38.185)

Yeah, it’s a great question. I think about this through two different lenses. The first one is obviously the who you’re going after. And for what it’s worth, typically in enterprise companies, particularly for a company like Calendly, the user within that company tends to test it out first. And the user is the person that has that problem. So a salesperson within an enterprise company will go, this is really painful scheduling.

John Jantsch (12:00.429)

Mm.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (12:06.625)

I’ve heard by Cano, you’ll go check it out and they’ll come in through our PLG funnel, our self-serve funnel. And there, how you sell to them and the message for them is extremely similar as the message to a solopreneur and SMB because they are the user, they have this actual direct pain of the product solves. And so I think that when, in a lot of ways that is consistent. Now, of course, if you’ve got that person in your funnel, right, who is the user within an enterprise,

Your job now is to use other channels to go and directly target the procurement team, the security team, the actual economic buyer with very targeted messaging. This is typically through a sales team. We can also be using things like account-based marketing to go do that so that you bring your enterprise value proposition to them. And this is classic in SaaS. This is why if you go to most SaaS websites, unless they are purely focused on the enterprise market,

the homepage will be very directed at the end user, and they will have an enterprise section which tells the full enterprise value proposition. And the price in the packaging, most of the packages are designed for the actual users, and they’ve got an enterprise package designed for those other people that you’re trying to sell to. I think it’s about, and finding the balance of that depends on your business and the degree to which it’s like your opportunities in the enterprise versus in the SMB.

John Jantsch (13:08.675)

Mm-hmm.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (13:33.409)

So I think you needed to do both, but I think my key point there is that even in the enterprises, are where you’re to get the adoption is getting a end user to love it because they end up becoming what we call in the, in sort of go to market, the champion. They’re going in, Hey boss, we’ve got to use this thing. Here’s how much time it will save me. If you don’t get the champion, if you don’t get that user to care, the

John Jantsch (13:50.894)

Sure.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (13:59.883)

Procurement team, the security team, they don’t give a shit. Oops, sorry, shouldn’t have said it. They don’t care. And so I think that’s the key thing that I think oftentimes people miss.

John Jantsch (14:09.402)

So is part of what you’ve been brought to do is build a sales team or is there already a sales team that’s on the ground?

Shane Murphy-Reuter (14:17.457)

Yeah, we already had a sales team. when I joined, Cal and Lee had already gone on the journey to build an enterprise product offering an enterprise sort of package and team. think what I’m trying to do is blend the self-serve and sales experience in a more natural way. So again, a lesson that I’ve had at pretty much every single company I’ve worked for in B2B has had a combination of self-serve or product-led growth and sales led growth.

And typically speaking, they tend to be pretty siloed on islands. And so what happens is you either have this experience for the customer that’s fully self-serve, maybe a reactive support team, but pretty much self-serve. And then if you’re willing to buy the enterprise package, now you go through this like really human intensive experience. The SDR goes to the AE, goes to the account management team with implementation. And it’s like, it makes actually no sense if you think about it from first principles, why it would be such a

binary distinction between the two. And so I think a lot of companies are now realizing, you know, things like velocity sales or, you know, much more softer touch sales to still support the customer, but also get out of the way if they want to just like adopt and use. And so the team had already started to do some of that work, but it’s a lot of what I think about day in day out is how to blend the two in a more natural way.

John Jantsch (15:37.496)

Yeah.

Just get rid of a few of the acronyms, that would help, right? So have you found, and this may be a tough question for you to answer, you may not want to answer this, but have you found that the role that you’ve been brought into play is new and has that required a mindset shift because of the way the company’s grown, because of the company culture? Again, you don’t have to talk specifically about your experience as much as…

Shane Murphy-Reuter (15:45.353)

yeah.

John Jantsch (16:10.242)

I’m sure other companies have experienced those kind of growing pains too.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (16:14.465)

Yeah, it’s a great question. Like I think what a lot of companies are starting to realize is, and in my experience is that particularly technology companies are founded by technologists. And so a lot of the time they start self-serve, right? They go, well, we can just set up a signup link and people can just buy it. And then at some point a board member, somebody said, hey, you’ve got a bunch of larger customers here. You need to build an enterprise offering. They go and hire a head of sales from some enterprise company.

John Jantsch (16:25.612)

Yeah.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (16:42.591)

And that person brings a playbook and drops this like very classic sales experience on top of the self-serve base, creating this sort of siloed nature in this kind of like a, and so I think a lot of companies, there’s probably been about 10 years of evolution of that happening. A lot of companies have started to really feel the pain of those things being so disconnected. And so it is becoming more common.

John Jantsch (16:54.082)

Mm-hmm.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (17:10.305)

to bring in a person running all of go-to-market, particularly in companies where they have both experiences in their business for all the reasons that I described because in the traditional model of having maybe a CMO who runs the self-serve side and a CRO or head of sales who runs the sales side, that traditional model actually beds in the fact that these two things are on a silo. And so…

John Jantsch (17:35.054)

Sure.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (17:37.205)

I do think that it’s increasingly happening that whether it’s they just use the term CRO, it’s your tone, all of it, or a president of GoToMarket like I am, a lot more companies are doing it now.

John Jantsch (17:50.982)

I’m going to get you in trouble here probably. But do you think that the way that salespeople are incentivized really actually exacerbates that problem?

Shane Murphy-Reuter (18:02.387)

It’s a really great question. actually remember listening to Bill Macias on a podcast who was the, he was head of CMO at Slack. I think he was at Zendesk, like kind of a goat in the industry. He talked about, I think it was at Slack bringing in for the sales team that part of their compensation was linked also to a customer satisfaction of the sales process. And so anyway, I just thought I’d share that. But yes, I do think that there is a, there is a.

I think in the more enterprise end of sales, having incentivization to ensure that, you know, the sales team do a good job of maximizing the revenue potential is important. So like, if I’m not incentivized, what I’ll do is I’ll say, yeah, okay, well, maybe I’ll maximize the discount that I give, or I’ll say, I won’t try and bother some multi-product sell. I’ll just say, just get them in and on this one product. And so in certain instances, you do want incentives for the sales team to

John Jantsch (18:50.968)

Yeah, yeah.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (19:01.761)

push for the largest value sell as possible and incentivization around with commission structures, et cetera, can be important there. And so, for example, at Calendly, our enterprise sales team absolutely are commission-based and I think that’s the right approach. In a more velocity sales model that I mentioned before where it might be lighter touch, you’re semi-helping the customer like a support, right? You’re answering questions, you’re doing somewhat of a value sell but not the full thing.

you, you, do think that you want to be very careful not to have like a traditional model. And so for example, I currently, we don’t write their more salaries. And so I think you just need to apply the right incentive structure based on what, what are you trying to incentivize these people to do? And, and, and so I do think that there is a place for it as I mentioned, but maybe not across the board on a sales team.

John Jantsch (19:58.75)

All right. Let’s end today on a product question. I think this might be a record. think we’re 20 minutes in exactly. And I’m the first mention of AI. So how is AI going to impact the product from what you know so far?

Shane Murphy-Reuter (20:16.935)

Yeah, that’s a great question. I mentioned that we believe this is an opportunity to innovate in the relationship management software space for SMBs and solopreneurs, know, the smaller companies. One of the reasons that up until now, it’s been difficult to build this type of software for those customers is that typically those software types of software need like an army of operations people to set them up and manage them like

If you talk to companies, have Salesforce or Marketo or any of these, there’s like, there’s like job boards of like, you know, kind of, all these ops to manage these tools. And so if you’re at SMB, that’s really challenging, right? The beautiful thing is that we’re going to start entering the space just as AI is getting to the point where they can start automating a bunch of the, used to be, take a lot of operational, time and effort. And so.

John Jantsch (20:45.314)

Yeah.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (21:12.033)

You can imagine a world where like, you know, today, a CRM, even in most cases, still looks like one of these sort of like databases, right? Line items of people or whatever. Exactly. Right. And why does that exist? Because it was a record keeper. It was just a database, right? In the world of AI, that all happens automatically. Now a CRM or relation management software can be actually about surfacing the insights and actions of things that can truly lead to you creating better relationships. And so I think.

John Jantsch (21:18.722)

Yeah, it’s just a relational database, right?

John Jantsch (21:25.422)

the

Shane Murphy-Reuter (21:41.601)

I think it’s a beautiful time for any company that we start thinking about innovating into a new space because you have a blank sheet of paper to define the way you interact with this product in an AI first way, which I think the incumbents are going to really struggle with. And that’s why a lot of the incumbents are doing the co-pilot thing, right? We’ve got this chunky, hard to use software. So how we use AI will give you a clip.

John Jantsch (22:00.589)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (22:04.162)

Right.

button.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (22:10.517)

to help you to figure out how to use a really hard software. Well, the other way you could do it is actually design it from first principles in a way that’s really easy to use. And so anyway, we think that there’s a huge opportunity there. And for sure, our product roadmap from here is like AI first. And we are trying to think about everything from that lens.

John Jantsch (22:28.142)

Yeah.

Well, Shane, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there anywhere you’d want to invite people to connect with you? I know obviously Calendly is where they can find out about the product, but anywhere you like to hang out?

Shane Murphy-Reuter (22:45.117)

LinkedIn is the best one. I used to be in other places, but I think we can safely point people to LinkedIn for now.

John Jantsch (22:51.692)

Yeah, awesome. Again, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Shane Murphy-Reuter (22:56.893)

Thanks so much, John. It was a pleasure.

Bridging the Courage Gap in Your Business

Bridging the Courage Gap in Your Business written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Margie Warrell

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Dr. Margie Warrell, bestselling author, leadership coach, and global authority on courage and risk-taking. We unpacked the core ideas from her latest book The Courage Gap: Five Steps to Braver Action—a must-read for anyone navigating the often uncomfortable decisions that come with running a business.

From Fortune 500 boardrooms to small consulting firms, Margie has helped leaders overcome fear, self-doubt, and the imposter syndrome that hold them back from realizing their full potential. Our conversation explored the emotional triggers that prevent entrepreneurs from raising their rates, making bold decisions, or having tough conversations. Her advice? Business courage isn’t about fearlessness—it’s about action in the presence of fear. Whether you’re a solo entrepreneur or leading a team, closing the courage gap could be the difference between surviving and thriving.

Dr. Margie Warrell’s insights offer an actionable framework for overcoming fear, boosting your entrepreneur mindset, and leading with integrity. Bridging the courage gap could be your most powerful strategy for small business growth.

Key Takeaways:

The Courage Gap Is Real: The space between what you know you should do and what you actually do is often filled with fear and hesitation—not a lack of knowledge.
Bravery in Leadership Starts Small: Margie emphasizes that courage is like a muscle. Daily habits like journaling, exercising, and intentional pauses help strengthen it.
Pause or Procrastination?: Learn to distinguish between a strategic pause and fear-based delay. Clarity leads to action.
Imposter Syndrome Affects Everyone: While female entrepreneurs often face a unique set of challenges, courage gaps affect all leaders—especially when it comes to pricing strategy and self-worth.
Raise Your Rates With Confidence: Stop questioning your value. Consider what your service is worth to them, not just what you feel comfortable charging.
Move Through the Unknown: Waiting for certainty leads to stagnation. Small, courageous steps build momentum and inform your next best move.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introduction to Margie Warrell
[01:01] What is the Courage Gap?
[02:57] The Difference Between Fear-based and Strategic Pausing
[05:06] What Role Does Imposter Sydrone Play?
[09:48] Finding the Courage to Charge Your Worth
[12:15] Habits to Build Courage
[14:35] Dealing with Fear of Rejection
[17:10] Being Couragous Through the Unknown

More About Margie Warrell:

Check out Margie Warrell’s Website
Connect with Margie Warrell on LinkedIn

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.92)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Margie Warrell. From the outback Australia to Fortune 500 boardrooms, and the US Congress, Dr. Margie Warrell is a global authority on leadership, courage and navigating risk. Bestselling author, speaker and coach, she empowers people to make bold decisions. She’s also the host of a show like this called The Live Brave Live.

There go. I’ll get it right. Live brave podcast. We’re going to talk about her sixth book today, the courage gap, five steps to braver action. So Margie, welcome to the show. So are you living in Australia? No, you can’t be. It would.

Margie Warrell (00:38.333)

Great to be with you, John.

Margie Warrell (00:43.038)

No, I am living on the same terra firma as you. I actually live just south of Washington DC, in North Virginia.

John Jantsch (00:50.711)

Okay, I was gonna say it would be a terrible hour to be doing a podcast in Australia right now. Yes. So let’s start with the with the title of the book, The Courage Gap. What is it?

Margie Warrell (00:53.696)

It would, 5 a.m.

Margie Warrell (01:04.804)

Yeah, well, John, have you ever had one of those times where you knew there was something you should do? Like you knew you needed to have a conversation, you knew you needed to make a change and you needed to move someone out of a role or and yet you held back and you hesitated and you procrastinated and you rationalized and I can see you nodding. Well, you know, it is not a lack of knowledge that creates that gap between

John Jantsch (01:24.494)

Yeah, of course. Who has it?

Margie Warrell (01:32.936)

between what we should do and what we do. It is a lack of courage and that gap is widened by our fear. What will happen? What if this person gets upset? What if I mess it up? What if I lose money? What if I get it wrong? What if it’s really ugly and awkward and there’s a huge fallout? What will people say? What if I fail? And so our fear creates the gap between the actions we’re entirely capable of taking, holding someone to account.

you know, getting rid of someone out of your business because they’re not a fit, et cetera. Having a difficult conversation with your co-owner and what we actually do. And it takes courage to close that gap. But as I make the case at the start of the book, when we fail to take those risks, to make the change, take the chance, speak up, et cetera, we actually become more vulnerable to worse outcomes over time.

So the discomfort we’re trying to save ourselves, the thing we’re trying to avoid, we actually end up suffering way more over time and end up in a worse place. And it’s why, John, that most people, when I speak to them and I do a lot of speaking and run programs, and I’ll say, hey, who here can sometimes regret that they took too long to do a difficult thing? And most people go, yep, yep, yep.

John Jantsch (02:54.766)

Yeah. You know, I’ve, I’ve actually been in business 30 years. And so a couple of things I’ve learned over the years is every now and then you like go through that fear and you do the thing. And actually what happened was way less worse than you thought it was going to be right. And you, start banking that, but then there are also been times when I’ve paused and that was the right thing to do too. So how do you kind of like, how do you differentiate between fear-based procrastination and a strategic pause?

Margie Warrell (03:24.198)

Yeah, well, I think a pause can be very wise. That is just before plowing forward, stepping back, just re-grounding for a moment in like, okay, what’s going on here? Where are my emotions getting away with me? And I think recognizing there’s a difference between being brave and courageous and being reckless and foolhardy and impulsive and reactive.

I’m talking about considered action. And I think what you’re saying is that sometimes procrastination, but I would call it not procrastination. You’re not, know, oh, it’s all too hard. It’s actually saying, I’m just gonna just stop for a moment and consider things thoughtfully. I’m gonna try and get the emotions out of this. And as objectively as I can, think through the pros and cons short term and

far term of different courses of action and align with my values. What feels right for me? What has integrity here? What aligns with the kind of person, leader, business owner I want to be? Okay, now I’m going to move forward. And so there is a distinct difference. And I think practicing a pause is a lot of power in a pause. And I actually think that when we can stop the busy doing, doing, doing,

John Jantsch (04:46.296)

Yeah, yeah.

Margie Warrell (04:51.072)

and reconnect to who we’re being, which let’s face it, a lot of business owners really do. It actually high grades the actions we take. It’s like, ah, this is what I need to do. It actually can help us be way more effective than just sometimes scurrying furiously and going in circles.

John Jantsch (05:08.327)

So I’m going to probably wade into dangerous territory here. We’re going to talk about courage, you’re right. Is there a difference in this gap, real or perceived, between men and women? I’m a white male born in America. I think I’m entitled to everything. So why would I have imposter syndrome, right? I’m being somewhat facetious, but not.

Margie Warrell (05:11.774)

Okay, let’s go. Let’s go. And we’re talking about courage.

you

Margie Warrell (05:24.008)

Yes.

John Jantsch (05:37.038)

Is it much harder, say, for a woman to particularly, or somebody who doesn’t have the advantages that feels like that imposter syndrome is because they’re like, do I belong here?

Margie Warrell (05:51.838)

Yes, there is absolutely a difference, gendered difference in our experience of our circumstances, of ourselves, of our ability to navigate risk, what might feel risky. And let me just start by saying that this concept of courage, one, yes, it’s a trait. Some people naturally come out of the womb with just a higher tolerance for risk.

John Jantsch (06:09.934)

Mm-hmm.

Margie Warrell (06:20.464)

than others. And yes, there’s even there’s a gender element to that too. You know, I think of my sons like, Mom, look, no hands riding their bike down a hill and my daughter never did that. But yes, I mean, I’m generalizing, but I think there’s some truth to that. Men like sticking out at high adrenaline activities more so than women. So I think part of that might be nature, part of it nurture, we’re not going to debate that. But recognizing courage isn’t just choosing to take action in the presence of fear.

It is also the management of our fear. And often we have more fear than we need to have. So we have this magnified perception of risk. I could never do that. my God, that would be just terrifying. And actually you can do it. And it’s as only as terrifying as you’re making it to be like to start a business, to expand into a new market, to…

John Jantsch (06:55.926)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (07:07.79)

you

Margie Warrell (07:12.34)

hold someone accountable, et cetera. And as you said before, sometimes we lay awake in bed, I’ll let this person go, I gotta hold them accountable. And then we do it, go, it wasn’t that hard, I should have just done it. But for women, and speaking as a woman, and I grew up in Australia, where I think there’s also a cultural difference in Australia as well to the USA, but I think women, partially because of our social conditioning, do struggle more with self-doubt.

Do second guess themselves more. not often not feel as confident to put themselves out there to just try something and wing it. I’ve seen a lot of men going, hey, let’s just try this. I don’t know quite what I’m doing, but I’ll just wing it and I’ll fumble through and I’ll mess up a few times. And when I do, I’ll just go, yeah, whatever, learn something, move on. Women, we ruminate, we second guess, we beat ourselves up when we don’t do things perfectly.

John Jantsch (07:40.94)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (07:57.846)

you

John Jantsch (08:06.562)

Well, or let’s let’s be honest, sometimes you don’t get a second chance. You know, where is just what you said, you know, so there’s this fear of like, can’t screw up.

Margie Warrell (08:11.497)

and s-

Margie Warrell (08:15.816)

Yeah, and that’s true. Women are judged more harshly when they don’t get things right. You know, we know with the glass cliff phenomena, etc. But I also think as women, we can sometimes unwittingly internalize misogyny. Like we are biased against ourselves. We judge ourselves more harshly. We also judge other women more harshly. This is actually backed by a lot of data. Women are harder on other women.

John Jantsch (08:36.994)

Interesting.

Margie Warrell (08:45.542)

So there was a great experiment out of Columbia, the Heidi Howard experiment, where they were looking at the CVs, they were exactly the same. And some of them were titled Heidi and some of them were titled Howard, exact same words. And when people were looking at it, would you want to employ this one or this one? And they were described as being ambitious and competitive. When it was Howard, like, yeah, he sounds like a good guy to have on the team. When it was Heidi, it’s like, I don’t want to have her, ambitious and competitive. So just recognizing we can be hard on ourselves.

And so I think I have done a lot of work with women, business owners, women leaders, entrepreneurs over the years. And I wrote about this in my prior book called, You’ve Got This. I’ve had to say so many times, you’ve got this, go for it, back yourself, take the risk. Don’t wait until you know exactly what you’re doing. Do not wait until you are 100 % confident, just do it and give yourself permission to figure it out as you go along.

And I really have to, I don’t have to say that as much to men.

John Jantsch (09:46.594)

Yeah, yeah. Well, I’m glad we went there. Obviously, that was a little off topic. No, no, no, no.

Margie Warrell (09:49.376)

And that’s not critical, by the way, that is not critical of men. I’m often like, just do more of what he does because hey, it’s working for him.

John Jantsch (09:58.476)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so let me, let me, let me go straight to a topic I hear all the time. I mean, very specific, courage gap. I work with a lot of marketing consultants, marketing agencies. We, do training, we license our methodologies to them. And one of the things I have to work on the most right from the beginning is getting them to understand they need to raise their prices. and that’s one that a lot of businesses, you know, they sit in front of a client and they’re like, will they

Amy, can I say this? And sometimes I just say, look, just do it. Just like next time you have a sale is called double your price and just say it and see what happens. Like what could happen, right? They could say no, or they, or you got a really high paying client and boy do they struggle.

Margie Warrell (10:43.328)

Do you notice a gender difference?

John Jantsch (10:45.326)

Not as much as you’d think, actually, in that. But again, and we do, mean, we probably, at least 50 % of the folks that join our program are women. And so I don’t see that so much, but they all undercharge. And there’s really, and I think it’s, goes to this, I, I don’t even think it’s like, will I get rejected? It’s, am I worth it? So how do you get through that gap?

Margie Warrell (10:52.448)

Okay, okay, that’s good.

Margie Warrell (11:16.8)

Yeah. So am I worth it? think it’s such a big question to ask ourselves. And what is my worth? What is my value? And am I going to ask more than the market can bear? And I’m like, well, the only way you find that out is by risking asking for more than the market can bear. And you’re like, okay, well, they didn’t, you know, they weren’t willing to pay 50K. Okay. Well, how’s 40? You know, but if you’re asking 20, then you’re not going to get 30 or 40. So, but I do think being willing to ask

John Jantsch (11:23.416)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:41.134)

Right, right, right.

Margie Warrell (11:45.376)

for what you really think you’re worth. And being clear here too, what is this commercially worth to them? Because often we think about, am I worth $30,000? Well, I’m like, man, if the outcomes people get, I do a lot of work with CEOs and C-suite leaders. I’m like, if working with me as a coach could increase your bottom line by half a million bucks or a million or 5 million, or avoid you making a mistake that could cost you

John Jantsch (11:52.716)

Yeah. Right.

Margie Warrell (12:14.97)

way more than that, then man, you know, yeah, that’s worth 50k. So I think, you know, making sure you’re thinking about not in terms of what you think you’re worth, but what is this worth to them too?

John Jantsch (12:18.412)

Yeah,

John Jantsch (12:24.6)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I have used that to really give people a posture too, is really if you’re going back and reviewing results and you can actually say, I doubled their business. You know, what am I only asking X for? You know, it really gets a lot easier, you know, with that data. Do you have some habits, you talk about courage muscles. Do you have some habits or daily exercises that you really seem to work to help people build that courage muscle?

Margie Warrell (12:52.092)

Yeah, well, I think firstly is doing more of whatever helps you bring your best bravest self to whatever challenges and whatever, you know, goals that you’ve got. And I think that can cross over multiple realms. I think of it as physical, mental, emotional and spiritual in terms of what is it that helps you physically have the energy so that you’re not exhausted because it’s hard to climb a mountain and be brave if you’re just exhausted mentally.

Are you focused on the highest leverage things? Or are you overwhelmed? You don’t even know which way to look. So that is crucial. Emotionally, what is it that helps you just process through the stress that you’ve got on and navigate some of those emotions that actually get in the way of you doing the very things you could do? And I think self-doubt is a really big one. And so, for me, I start my day every day with

John Jantsch (13:43.864)

Mm-hmm.

Margie Warrell (13:49.042)

some exercise, I read something, I write down what are my number one, my top three to five goals I want to get done today and who is it I need to be today. And for me at a spiritual level, and I say that without being religious or anything like that, just being, what is it that I feel is going to make the biggest mark and it’s going to make the biggest impact for those I’m here to serve today?

that aligns with my core values and what gives me a sense of purpose and meaning. And so I think all of those things when we’re of regularly doing small little things like those daily habits, whether it’s journaling and it’s exercising, connecting in with people that can hold you to account and bring out your vest, putting some guard rails around those who don’t, those small little things. But a question I often ask myself is what would I do if I was being brave today?

And it’s like, you know what? I would reach out to John and I would say, Hey John, Hey, let’s have coffee, you know, or Hey John, you know, can I be on your podcast? Not that that’s how this came to be, but, but, but put yourself out there. Like ask yourself, what would I do to day if I was being brave? And then do that very thing that comes to mind because courage is a muscle. have to put in the reps.

John Jantsch (15:04.846)

All I’m going to put you in coaching mode here. I am a salesperson and I’m going to call on what could be the biggest account, you know, of my life. And I’m really afraid of getting rejected. How would you help me reframe?

Margie Warrell (15:19.424)

beautiful one. I would start with principle one in the courage gap. Focus on what you want and not on what you fear. So if you’re terrified of being rejected, my gosh, I hope I make this. what if I don’t? my gosh, it’s gonna be so, I’ll feel terrible. But you’re putting all your energy into the outcome you don’t want. It’s like praying for what you don’t want to happen. And what you focus on expands. So I would be like one, what does success look like? Visualize

John Jantsch (15:21.901)

You

John Jantsch (15:29.614)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (15:39.758)

Right, right,

Margie Warrell (15:49.51)

the best possible outcome. I walk out of there, I’ve landed it. And why is that great? Well, not only because it’s good for you, but how is this serve them? So make sure it’s not just about you. But how is this in service of something bigger than just you? Yeah, you’re great to get the commission, great to get the contract, great for whatever comes through it. But also focus on why is this good, not just for you, but for them? So focus on that win-win and what is your highest intention here? Yeah, you want to get it, but not just for your sake.

John Jantsch (16:00.814)

Alright.

Margie Warrell (16:19.614)

And I think just getting that real clarity of your positive outcome, because if you are not committed and clear in the positive outcome you wanna create, fear is gonna fill the void. And so your commitment to a positive outcome has to exceed your fear of a negative outcome. And if all you’re doing is going, I’m terrified, I’m gonna be rejected. I’m like, stop. I would even have someone write it down. Write down what does wild success look like going into this meeting? Write down.

why this is good, not just for you, but why is this good for them? What is the value that you want to bring? Write down, what is the mindset, the belief that I need to operate from? That I have everything it takes, that I’m fully worthy and deserving, and why not me? Because if it’s not me, it’s going to be John. So why not me? And then ground yourself in the values that define who you want to be and go into that from that place of being worthy, of having integrity.

being brave, of being generous, of being someone that makes others’ lives better. And then I would finally say, shift your posture. Take a big deep breath, breathe in courage, breathe out fear, and stand tall, hold your shoulders back, because our physiology impacts our psychology.

John Jantsch (17:36.686)

So there’s one of the things I’ve noticed this first quarter, maybe we’re turning the corner, I hope so, but there’s a lot of fear based just in unknown right now, geopolitical things, economic things, and that has a tendency to make people sort of freeze. How do get people through the unknown? You know, it’s like, well, I don’t know what’s going to happen, so how do I courageously

Margie Warrell (18:03.936)

Yeah, and when there is a lot of uncertainty, it innately triggers anxiety because we all like certainty. Our brains are wired to make plans. Yeah, to make plans on a future that we can predict with some level of confidence. And right now people go, I don’t know how much confidence I have in my prediction abilities, right? The future has got a lot of unknowns. It’s very volatile. It’s very unpredictable. But here’s what I say to people all the time.

John Jantsch (18:12.46)

Hey change, that’s the only thing we hate.

Margie Warrell (18:33.318)

always been uncertainty, there will always be uncertainty. And if you are waiting for certainty before you make a move, you’re going to get left behind. And you’re going to be in the dust of those who are taking action amid the unknowns. But this isn’t about being reckless. It’s about going, what’s my best guess here? How do I manage potential downsides? I’m not betting the family farm on a racehorse, but I’m going, okay, let me take a few steps forward here.

quickly reassess, this working, not working? What am I learning? And shorten those learning cycles. Because as they say in battle, it is safer to run left or right in the fog of battle in gunfire than it is to stand still. Because when you’re standing still, you’re not getting any information. You’re not getting any feedback. But when you’re in motion, okay, you know, this is working, this isn’t working. You’re getting something that’s going to put you in a better position.

as there is more certainty over time. So to anyone listening to this and you’re holding back, you’re like, do I, don’t I? It doesn’t have to be all or nothing. Sometimes it can be incremental, but what’s something you can do today that’s moving you forward?

John Jantsch (19:45.12)

Awesome. Well, Margie, I appreciate you stopping by the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there someplace you’d invite people to connect with you and obviously find out more about the Courage Camp?

Margie Warrell (19:54.258)

Yeah, thanks, John. Well, you can head over to my website, margieworal.com and the courage gap. I have a whole page on there that in a video, et cetera, tells you about it, but you can also get it on Amazon and everywhere good books are sold. And I also encourage people to connect with me on LinkedIn and Insta and social media. I’m everywhere under my name.

John Jantsch (20:13.678)

All right, awesome. Again, appreciate you. Stop by. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Margie Warrell (20:18.14)

Awesome, thanks John.

SEO Tactics That Actually Work in 2025

SEO Tactics That Actually Work in 2025 written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Prasanna Dhungel

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Prasanna Dhungel, co-founder and managing partner at Grow By Data. With decades of experience spanning marketing, tech, and SaaS, Prasanna brings sharp insights into the rapidly evolving landscape of search engine optimization—especially as AI transforms how users interact with search.

We explore the future of SEO in the age of Google AI, AI search results, and the zero-click search era. From adapting content strategy to optimizing for online visibility and brand performance, Prasanna breaks down how marketers can stay relevant, rank better, and actually get results in 2025 and beyond.

If you’re still using SEO playbooks from 2015, it’s time for an upgrade. Between AI-powered search results, changing user behaviors, and increased competition for attention, modern SEO demands a smarter, intent-driven, and more brand-conscious approach.

Key Takeaways:

SEO Isn’t Dead—It’s Evolved
With AI overviews and new SERP formats, traditional SEO has shifted. Businesses must rethink both organic search and paid search strategy to remain visible.
Zero Clicks Can Still Drive Value
Even without direct traffic, appearing in AI SEO and Google AI overview results can reinforce brand visibility and improve long-term recognition.
Content Needs Purpose
Brands should focus on content marketing that drives interaction—like quizzes and infographics—especially when top-of-funnel reach isn’t converting.
Focus on Keyword Intent
Prioritize high-intent search terms over broad awareness content. Think about what your audience is trying to solve, not just what they’re curious about.
Track Share of Voice
Traditional rankings aren’t enough. Monitor share of voice across search features like shopping, Reddit snippets, and AI panels to measure content performance more accurately.
Reddit Is the New Authority
Understand where your industry is being discussed and how your brand is represented. Participating in authentic conversations can influence both perception and rankings.
Optimize for AI Discovery
Use structured content like bullet points, product attributes, and schema to increase your chances of being picked up by Google AI and LLMs.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing Prasanna Dhungel
[00:53] How to Prepare for Changes in Search?
[05:06] Is Intent Driven Content the Way Forward?
[07:16] What Metrics Should We Be Tracking?
[10:39] Best Practices to Show Up in AIO
[16:20] Measuring ROI Without Attribution

More About Prasanna Dhungel:

Check out Prasanna Dhungel’s Website
Connect with Prasanna Dhungel on LinkedIn

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.676)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Prasanna Dungal. He is nearly two decades of experience building businesses in marketing, tech, healthcare, and SaaS. He’s a managing partner by Grow at Grow by Data. He holds a bachelor’s degree with honors from Cornell, a master’s in engineering from Princeton, and an MBA from Kellogg School of Management. means he paid a lot to get educated. He was born.

and raised in Kathmandu. Probably the first Kathmandu on the show today, but he now resides in Boston. So welcome to the show, Prasanna.

Prasanna Dhungel (00:40.91)

Thank you so much, John, for the nice introduction and I look forward to the conversation.

John Jantsch (00:45.392)

Yes, yes. So we’re going to talk basically about SEO today. And I know that’s a lot of the work that you do at Grow by Data. A lot of change, know, AI, other things going on, a lot of, I mean, you even see people on LinkedIn saying SEO is dead. So how are you telling people they need to prepare today for changes in traditional search results?

Prasanna Dhungel (01:12.622)

Yeah, that’s a very hot, popular topic for folks in source, growth marketing, marketing altogether. You’re right. I don’t think SEO is dead. I think it has evolved. In fact, it’s the era of Google AI and just chats and all of these, in fact, has provided further impetus, in my mind, to storage.

Because the way I like to think about search is you’re asking a question and Google is answering today, but then new sources are answering. And you’re trying to understand how the answers are being presented, whether it be visually. Like in retail, for example, we like to say that the search result page is increasingly becoming like the Amazon results page, with a lot of product pictures being visible, your Reddit being visible, many times like, you

John Jantsch (02:06.372)

Yeah.

Prasanna Dhungel (02:12.236)

over the last year or so, videos and so on. So I think search has evolved. You have to look at paid search and traditional SEO in a new lens. And in fact, it’s created, I mean, there’s just a lot of interest to capture that. And I think the ones that are really going to win are going to be ahead versus be stuck in his or her old ways. But I think there’s a opportunity ahead.

John Jantsch (02:41.486)

Well, the one thing that I think is leading a lot of people to saying, I mean, people are seeing their organic traffic dropping. mean, I think that’s reality, but then they’re also go to the Google homepage or search page and they see the AI results or AI overview that comes there. And you know, there are many people that they get their answer and off they go. Right. So the so-called zero click, you know, era I think has really got a lot of people worried that, you know, all the effort they spent on producing content.

over the years is now going to go away.

Prasanna Dhungel (03:14.444)

That’s a fair concern. And the concern is Google is answering the question right on the sort page versus now letting us click and go into the page. So that remains. The way that we will have to see how that evolves, the next few months or the next year. Some are, in fact, saying it’s because of that that

John Jantsch (03:23.544)

Right. Right.

Prasanna Dhungel (03:42.264)

Folks like us are moving to newer channels to discover, right? But that said, folks are also using it as an opportunity for brand building, which is when you get picked up by these zero click results, you are in fact reminded, like you’re seeing a TV ad almost, and you’re remembering a brand, and then ultimately you remember that to make a purchase. So…

That’s one way that I know brands are thinking about it. But that said, I think just relying on that is challenging. Perhaps top of awareness studies keywords have had fewer clicks, or if any. And then increasingly, know source marketers are focusing on other types of content which require someone to click and go in. But the other way I like to actually show the positive is

If you are visible on Google’s zero source clicks, it could also indicate that you could be more friendlier to LLMs. And so you could get picked up by some of the chat engines. And so if you’re not getting picked up at all, I think that’s a problem. You want to get picked up. can obviously, you can rely on it alone. You have to use other sources, but you had to get picked up so that you also get picked up in the other sources.

John Jantsch (04:54.02)

Mm-hmm.

Prasanna Dhungel (05:09.228)

which in fact are almost like zero clicks or just even on the chat. That’s how I think about it.

John Jantsch (05:16.494)

So people are, mean, content is, you mentioned content and I want to go to types of content. One of the bits of advice I’m hearing from a lot of folks is this idea of a lot of information content, the how-to type of stuff is really what Google is kind of consuming in the AI overviews. But if somebody is actually searching to solve something or searching for a specific type of…

company, you know, those high intent searches are still there and happening. Would that suggest that we should be moving our content very much to much more intent driven content as opposed to kind of that top of the funnel, you know, show up in search content?

Prasanna Dhungel (06:04.334)

So I think it depends, right? If you believe that the top of the funnel content serves what we are trying to find very well, right? Then it may not be worth being the ninth or the tenth brand out there to capture that. There’s diminishing return, right? However, if you feel like your point of view is very strong, then why not create the brand in the first place? It’s about brand touch point.

John Jantsch (06:15.172)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (06:33.166)

Mm-hmm.

Prasanna Dhungel (06:33.806)

But assuming that’s not the case, you are right. I do think then, you know, trying to go in and capture demand, you know, in the middle of the funnel or lower funnel, you know, and then really trying to draw someone searching from those is also a wise strategy that I know many have followed. Like we were talking to a large financial services client recently, and what they were telling me is, hey, you know, we’ve, we, I mean, we don’t see the ROI of really investing in top of the funnel content anymore.

John Jantsch (06:59.928)

Mm-hmm.

Prasanna Dhungel (07:03.148)

because we’re not getting folks to come to our site. And many times I talk about the brand being mentioned on top of the funnel, but sometimes the brand isn’t even mentioned. And so it even defeats the purpose of presenting your brand in front of someone. And so these guys were, in fact, creating newer types of content like quizzes or infographics or more deeper content that needs the user to interact to get the answer. And that’s where they were gravitating towards. And I’m actually seeing more and more brands do that.

John Jantsch (07:33.028)

Well, are there metrics, new metrics, different metrics that we should be tracking today to really understand how, although this AIO is kind of affecting our search.

Prasanna Dhungel (07:46.232)

We like to use share of voice as a metric to really track a brand’s visibility on Google, on Google AIO, on Batesource, what have you. And then we like to dissect it by different lines of business, by different intent, by different geographies, by different languages. So that’s the 50,000 foot metric that we use. But that said,

I do agree with you. think a question that you want to begin to answer is, OK, if AI results are a proxy to brand visibility, then how much brand searches are you getting? And is that rising midterm? Is a metric I think you should be tracking?

Like if you’re doing the right things, even if you’re not getting the click, are people remembering your brand? And not just the brand term, but brand plus. And then there may be a time lag. For example, you know, when I purchase something, it might be a few weeks out, it might be a few months out. Or am I seeing, you know, so one way to do this would be, you know, am I visible in these results, zero click results? And is that rising? And then after a few weeks out or so,

Is the amount of brand searches rising and is that compounding? I I think that’s one way I’ve known that brands are tracking that.

John Jantsch (09:19.856)

So break down share a voice just at, I’m sure that every client’s different, but you know, essentially how do you start measuring share a voice?

Prasanna Dhungel (09:26.958)

Sure, so I like to give the example of running shoes, right? So imagine I am searching for running shoes, running shoes, men’s, women’s, and so on. So when you search for that keyword or a group of keywords, you want to be searching not just once, but over time, across different geographies, across different devices, across different times of the day, so you have enough sample.

And what you have to do is, how often is your brand mentioned on the search page? So for example, on shopping ads, how often is Nike visible versus Adidas or Hoka? On your classic blue links, how often is Nike visible? On virtual listings, which is a free product listing from Google, how often is it? So if you imagine real estate on the page and there’s 1,000 spots in there,

and the spots are consumed by videos, shopping, and organic, and even Reddit and so on. How often is Nike’s domain visible? Or Nike mentioned, you just kind of say it’s visible maybe 300 times over your sample size. Then we like to say you have a 30 % share of voice. And you might care to understand how that varies by Spanish versus English.

New York versus Toronto and so on. So you slice it but at the highest level it’s how often are you visible in that real state.

John Jantsch (11:01.934)

So in this AI overview world, the zero click world, are there things that you are helping brands try to understand? Like, obviously we want to show up there, but is there an intentional approach or are there best practices to make sure that your brand is showing up there? Or is it simply a matter of if you’re showing up high in search anyway, for some of those terms, you’re probably going to show up in the results? Or is there a way to get your content intentionally to show up in

the AI overviews.

Prasanna Dhungel (11:32.856)

Sure. So what we do is we dissect what are the sorb elements visible within AIO, right? So you have, like in retail, you have maps sometimes show up on the AIO results. Sometimes you have a description. Sometimes you have the product that shows up, you know, like you’re trying to discover products. So the first thing to do is really try to understand, deconstruct AIO, what exactly is visible by different types of source terms. You know, so sometimes if you are

John Jantsch (11:39.236)

Mm-hmm.

Prasanna Dhungel (12:02.254)

trying to, if you source for a bottom of the funnel type of a question, if AIO does show up, it’s a different mix versus on the top. So that’s one. The second is we look at whose brand is being mentioned on each of these sort elements. Like for example, who is getting the free listings on running shoes? Which brand is it? And then we try to deconstruct, OK, the why.

And what we’ve seen is there’s a few elements to getting picked up on AIO. Sometimes the way the content is written, you know, in bullet forms versus free flow text, we’ve seen that that gets picked up. Many times for retail, we’ve seen that inclusion of attributes like GTIN, you know, and rich product attributes on the PDB page also helps you get picked up. Sometimes other attributes like reviews and ratings and pricing.

John Jantsch (12:51.556)

you

Prasanna Dhungel (13:00.61)

These other product dimensions, if it’s rich, then it gets picked up. So at a high level, think for your traditional text, having bullet forms and making it easier, understandable, having questions in there, not long content, that has gotten picked up, number one. For retail, it’s really rich product attributes on the PDP page. And making sure that if you’re not getting rejected by Google Merchant Center,

or if you’re not getting flagged by Google Merchant Center, then it’s likely to get linked. And then the classic techniques of being cited by credible sources, those are other signals we’ve seen.

John Jantsch (13:44.11)

So we’ve been talking a lot about the AI overviews, but if you scroll down pretty much any search these days, scroll down a little bit, some of the top organic results are being delivered from Reddit. And so, you know, know a lot of people are starting to pay attention to that and go, well, how do I get my stuff to rank on Reddit? What are you telling clients about their participation in Reddit? It is much different than say Facebook and LinkedIn in terms of the ecosystem there and the culture there.

so how are you advising folks to, to hopefully get some of their content or their, their answers, whatever it might be to show in Reddit.

Prasanna Dhungel (14:23.438)

Sure. we were, I’ll give you a live example. We were working with a large shoe company and the first question they were asking us is, is Reddit visible on the sorp for the questions that I, for the queries that I care to. And so we helped them understand how, what questions Reddit was visible on. And number two, we went into Reddit and then what we helped them understand is how they are portrayed.

John Jantsch (14:38.244)

Right.

Prasanna Dhungel (14:52.75)

you know, to folks like us, like, you know, if you’re trying to source for running shoes, who is very active, like who is active on Reddit? Is it Nike? Is it, you Hoka? Is it Adidas? And then how large of a community that Reddit thread has for say Nike running shoes or Nike running shoes. And so what we tell clients is first of all, try to understand where Reddit is visible. Number two, really try to understand your

your Reddit thread versus your competitors Reddit thread and is it one that you have a community manager running or is it just organic? And then the other thing we do is we’ve actually helped clients answer a bunch of questions on Reddit. One is we find that a lot of people are talking about pricing on Reddit. What does that sentiment look like? What does product quality look like?

John Jantsch (15:45.572)

Mm-hmm.

Prasanna Dhungel (15:51.778)

you know, and then how people are saying good or bad things about it. And so by giving that visibility, what we recommend, what we recommended to this client is you, I mean, they didn’t have a community manager and we said, you know, it’s an increasing channel. know, you get a lot of visibility. People are going there to understand what they like about your product. They’re giving ideas. And so we were recommending that they have a community manager who constantly analyzes and stays on top of it.

and then curates the experience. So you cannot just say whatever, but that said, remaining passive is also not a good idea. You want to have a point of view and sometimes there might be an opportunity to run an ad. When someone has a concern about the brand, then advertisement is a source of being on top of those that are looking at your brand. So you also have a strong point.

So these are some of the techniques that we have been telling clients.

John Jantsch (16:51.982)

So what kind of pushback are you getting on? And this is always the case, but we went through a period there where everybody was leaning on attribution. Like if you can’t prove that this got me a customer, then I don’t want to pay for it. And now we’re telling people you’ve got to be here and here and here. some of these places, a community manager, for example, is not a salesperson, right? They’re not going to create conversions. So how are you helping people kind of

Prasanna Dhungel (17:15.032)

Yes.

John Jantsch (17:21.276)

work through that ROI conversation when in some ways we’re talking about participating and engaging in ways that you can’t measure.

Prasanna Dhungel (17:31.34)

Right, so your question is, how are we helping clients think through the question of, if I put a dollar and the returns aren’t obvious, like a community manager, how should they think about it? And so the way we like to describe this is, if you use search as a proxy, then there is a certain amount of, the search volume is a proxy on demand for your service or product.

John Jantsch (17:41.08)

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Prasanna Dhungel (18:00.788)

And so, know, if what you’re being exposed to is a lot of Reddit in there, right. And then a certain percentage of them click through, you know, your classic CTR model there and they go in and it’s a highly uncurated, poor experience. Then you’re losing, right? So it sometimes is defense and sometimes it’s offense. So offense could be, you you put in a dollar and you get $3 back. Okay. But then.

defense is if you don’t have someone in there, it’s almost like insurance, right? If you don’t have a community manager, then your brand perception could be tarnished. And if you’re Rolex, as an example, and someone thrashes your band, and next year you want to raise prices, people are not going to pay $10,000. They actually already have an impression that Rolex is probably not $10,000, and you might want to get $1,000.

John Jantsch (18:32.196)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (18:39.832)

Yeah.

Prasanna Dhungel (18:58.774)

And the other part, in my mind, John, is think about the generation that is getting into Reddit. Some of the brands we work with, they have a slightly more older demographic. And they’re trying to recruit younger demographics to, in fact, purchase from them. And the younger demographic are going into these communities. And the first impression they have, if there is no impression or if the impression is bad, then you are

John Jantsch (19:11.533)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (19:20.483)

Yeah.

Prasanna Dhungel (19:28.294)

not going to get them on board. So I like to even say that brands have begun to think of this investment almost as defensive. It’s like a leaky funnel, right? If you don’t yet go to Home Depot and buy something to fix your faucet, then you’ll just keep leaking. That’s also a way that brands have in fact approached that question.

John Jantsch (19:30.232)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:39.736)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (19:49.412)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, makes sense.

John Jantsch (19:54.584)

Yeah. Well, awesome. Well, lots of changes, lots going on. I appreciate you stopping by the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there somewhere you’d invite people to connect with you and learn more about the work that you’re doing there?

Prasanna Dhungel (20:05.462)

Yeah, absolutely. So you can connect with me on LinkedIn, Prasanna Dhungyal. Or you can go to our website, growbydata.com, and you’ll find me on the executive team. You can find me on LinkedIn, on Twitter, PD277. Happy to be helpful. And this is a fast-changing work area and would love to be helpful and supportive.

John Jantsch (20:30.116)

Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into one of these days out there on the road.

Prasanna Dhungel (20:34.656)

Absolutely. Thank you so much,

The Future of Marketing Is More Human Than Ever

The Future of Marketing Is More Human Than Ever written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Carlos Gil

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Carlos Gil, global marketing leader, bestselling author of The End of Marketing, and Brand Evangelist at GetResponse. Carlos is known for his bold approach to digital marketing, particularly in how brands can rise above the noise in a world dominated by AI, social media, and content creation.

Carlos challenges the status quo with his core thesis: Marketing as we know it is dead. The future isn’t just about technology—it’s about reconnecting with people. As AI tools like ChatGPT reshape the landscape of content marketing and digital advertising, brands must refocus on what can’t be automated: human relationships. From employee advocacy to authentic storytelling, Carlos shares actionable strategies for creating a brand strategy that thrives in a tech-driven world while staying rooted in human connection.

Carlos Gil’s perspective is a timely reminder: in the race toward automation, don’t lose the human heart of your brand. The brands that will win in the future are the ones that embrace empathy, connection, and authentic communication—at scale.

Key Takeaways:

Marketing is evolving—not ending. Brands must adapt by becoming more authentic, relational, and human-centric.
AI in marketing is powerful, but limited. Tools like ChatGPT can support email marketing and content creation, but they can’t replace real brand relationships.
Employee advocacy beats influencer marketing. Instead of outsourcing trust, Carlos encourages companies to empower employees to become true brand evangelists.
Omni-channel marketing is essential. Businesses must diversify their presence across platforms while prioritizing ownership of their audience through email and direct communication.
The most effective marketing strategy? Human connection. Creating real value through stories, vulnerability, and engagement helps brands rise above algorithm-driven sameness.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing Carlos Gil
[02:23] Brands Need to Humanize
[07:46] AI and the Need for Human Relationships
[12:25] Communicating the Human Element of Your Brand
[15:49] Omni-channel Marketing

More About Carlos Gil:

Connect with Carlos Gil on LinkedIn
Read The End of Marketing: Humanizing Your Brand in the Age of Social Media by Carlos Gil

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.09)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Carlos Gill. He’s a global marketing leader and author. He’s a US brand evangelist at GetResponse with over a decade of experience helping brands thrive in the digital age. He’s also known for his bold results-driven strategies and insights on leveraging AI, social media, and email marketing to drive growth and engagement. Today we’re going to talk about his latest book,

The end of marketing, humanizing your brand in the age of social media. So Carlos, welcome to the show.

Carlos Gil (00:36.991)

It’s great to be here on the show, John. Thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (00:39.232)

So wait, marketing is over, it’s not just evolving? Like it’s the end? What do mean by the end?

Carlos Gil (00:45.635)

the end is just that look, you know, the first line, then the marketing, it’s real provocative, the title itself is intended to be a provocative, engaging title to real people in and the first line of the book, not to spoil it for anyone, because I hope you go out and buy it, but it’s marketing as we know it is dead, right? And like, that’s the caveat that as we know it, and I say this, because I myself being millennial, right? I’ve been around now for multiple decades and generations, I’ve been able to see

John Jantsch (00:47.477)

You

John Jantsch (00:53.72)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (01:05.699)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carlos Gil (01:14.079)

it’s kind of shift throughout my lifetime from once not having digital technology to having digital to having the web to now everywhere we turn, we’re seemingly connected and there’s this just friction between brands and consumers. And, I know we’re going to talk about the books. I don’t want to give too much away early on, but the whole premise of the end of marketing is that brands want to be able to rise above all the digital noise that’s existing today.

John Jantsch (01:15.918)

Mm-hmm.

Carlos Gil (01:42.377)

they need to become more human. And look, to be transparent with you, I wrote this book in 2019. It came out in 2019. The very end, this was before COVID. I then sat down and wrote the second edition during COVID in 2021, the second edition came out. And I have folks that reach out to me through social media, just about every single day, John. And they say like, wow, like, did you predict what was going to happen, especially with like the whole AI piece? Because I would say then the marketing speaks more so today.

John Jantsch (01:44.632)

Yes.

John Jantsch (01:48.302)

Hmm.

John Jantsch (02:05.752)

Yes.

Carlos Gil (02:10.335)

to a 2025 reader honestly than in 2019 when I wrote it.

John Jantsch (02:16.685)

You know, think though that that’s actually, mean, I’ve been around a little longer than you, uh, Carla said, so I’ve been doing this, uh, a little longer. And so I’ve seen these ups and bounds and I mean, people have kind of used this idea of the end of marketing numerous times because anytime something really changes, they’re like, Oh, the old way is dead. Um, so I, I, I, I 100 % agree. It’s changing faster than ever. This idea of, you know, all AI is creating.

more sameness and more noise than ever before. So touch a little bit more on this idea. I’ve been really preaching lately that I think branding or brands are going to become more important than ever. You use the word humanizing brands. How does a business need to be looking at that today?

Carlos Gil (03:06.803)

Look, when I wrote Dundee marketing, one of my inspirations behind the whole thesis, which is that if brands want to survive this AI apocalypse that we are like right now in, right? Whether you want to accept it not. Yes, it’s still the early days of AI, but what does that really mean? Like AI is evolving really fast. So early days of AI might mean that a year from now, like everything that you know about business is just completely flipped upside down on its head. So

John Jantsch (03:16.75)

Cheers.

Carlos Gil (03:35.453)

When I wrote this book, I started thinking about what’s the competitive advantage from a marketing standpoint for any business or any brand. And that’s relationships. And I know this having worked previously on the inside of brands, leading social media, having previously worked for LinkedIn, being a social network that you can’t really scale or automate relationships. Right? So when you think about what AI is able to do, yes, AI can

write copy for you a lot of the AI that we refer to as more so language models, such as chat GBT. So yes, AI can write website copy and social media copy and it can operate a lot faster than human being great. I love it. But at the end of the day, is it as effective as a human behind the controls? I think that’s that’s TBD. What I can tell you that AI cannot do is automate relationships between humans. That’s like a core theme of the

John Jantsch (04:32.162)

Mm-hmm.

Carlos Gil (04:33.427)

book. The core theme is just that like at the end of the day, whether you use technology to help you do your job or not, a relationship means means a lot, especially in this era that we’re in where I fully believe by 2030, the value of a relationship. I’m not talking about social media follower, I’m talking about real relationship being able to, you know, hop on a webcast, do something like this with you, connect people, sit down, have human to human interaction, there’s going to be an immense

John Jantsch (04:53.686)

Mm-hmm.

Carlos Gil (05:03.263)

premium on that experience. And for brands in order to stand out, you can’t automate that. So how do you stay competitive when you’re a multi billion dollar brand and you’re looking to stay competitive within your own category? Well, it’s simple, right? You’ve got influencers, right? That is one solution. But influencers, as I write in the marketing, they’re really just a band aid. They’re a temporary solution, right? You hire an influencer.

They promote your brand. see a little temporary bump in traffic to your website, right? It looks good. But when that influencer goes away, they take their following with them. So in order to sustain that success, you need to start making people the faces of your company. And ironically, the role that I’m doing now, what I’ve been doing with GetResponse for the last year, GetResponse being an email service provider that was created in the late 90s, is they brought me on board to serve in this brand evangelist role.

I really was that mean. So I wear multiple hats, right? Internally, I’m a marketing, you know, strategist, thought leader within the brand, but on the outside, I’m doing this, I’m on podcasts, I’m a company spokesperson, I’m speaking on behalf of the company at events. I just came back from South by Southwest, I was on the scene, creating video content. This what you’re kind of seeing in action through myself is honestly, John, like the perfect bow to put on my own book.

John Jantsch (06:01.004)

Mm-hmm.

Carlos Gil (06:30.163)

that I wrote the end of marketing because I’m living it, I’m doing it, I’m showing other organizations out there. This is how you humanize your brand through people. It’s not always hiring influencers, it’s having a really strong and effective employee advocacy strategy, it’s training your employees to really humanize your brand through their own content. And then it’s also going out and finding individuals that can embody your brand and bringing them within whether it’s hiring an influencer in house, right, to work for you for a year.

John Jantsch (06:46.52)

John Jantsch (06:58.541)

Mm-hmm.

Carlos Gil (06:59.475)

whether it’s hiring someone like myself to go out and create content on your behalf, it puts a human face and voice on the company. And I tell you what, this, I believe, is the new wave going forward for brand marketers and the smart ones that figure out that balance of how to still sell, how to still market, but doing it in a way that feels authentic. You’re doing it through a real human being. Those are the ones that are gonna stand out. Otherwise, I really believe you’re gonna start seeing a lot of companies

Start scaling back on social, start even scaling back their digital presence because, you’ve got AI that now is able to operate faster, move more lean, create content for you. And that in itself creates a real challenge for brand marketers.

John Jantsch (07:45.452)

You know, I’m seeing actually there’s, this whole kind of AI is going to replace people, you know, kind of a meme that that’s out there very wide. And, and there’s no question it’s replacing functions. but I actually had someone on the show the other day that has created it’s an AI tool. And they said that what it’s actually doing is they’re using AI to do a lot of, I don’t know, let’s call it grunt work, that, that people used to have to spend their time to do. And it’s actually freeing their people up to

to do more relationships and to spend more time, you know, just meeting with people, over lunch, you know, or whatever it, you know, it might be. And I think that that’s actually the way, the smart way that people are going to invest in their people is to not, to not look at this as like, we can, we can go down to two people now because we can have AI do all this. It’s like, no, we can actually re align or refocus what our people actually do that is going to, you know, establish this brand, you know, as a different, know, standout brand.

Carlos Gil (08:36.575)

100%.

Carlos Gil (08:43.263)

Yeah, look, 100 % I have a love hate relationship with AI. use AI throughout my day. But what I will say is that it’s very easy as a marketing professional to become reliant on AI to the point where it almost makes it hard for you to think for yourself. And that is free slope of all this technology, right? You become super reliant on it. And then chat GPT goes down. It’s like, oh my god, like, I forgot how to I forgot how to write. Right? Like,

John Jantsch (08:59.471)

It’s just

Carlos Gil (09:09.369)

It literally becomes like that. So what I always say is like, look, you need to find ways to make AI your trusted assistant. Historically, you have a marketing agency that you work with, you lean on them to write your social media ad copy, you lean on them to help you ideate like you have to build a relationship. You’re using chat GPT, right? You have to build a relationship with your chat GPT. There’s no other way around it. I have now spent a couple of years finessing and refining

John Jantsch (09:31.394)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Carlos Gil (09:37.203)

But what I will say is the way that I use AI helps me actually be much more creative. Because I know now that I have a trusted companion within Chad GBT that if I’m, for example, in an airport and an idea comes to my mind, I can speak into my phone and I can get real time feedback. Right? I can help, you know, ideate with the help of AI without having to call someone, without having to pay an agency. Right? So like there’s that aspect of it that I believe has it’s good.

John Jantsch (09:46.232)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (09:55.736)

Yeah. Yeah.

Carlos Gil (10:06.815)

But then there’s the other aspect of it that if you rely so much on AI to do all the heavy lifting, all the grunt work as you call it, or the menial tasks, now you are removing the human element out of things like copywriting or even writing an email or a text message. Like it’s crazy. I see people all the time now. I’m on airplanes a lot and they’re writing a text message and they go over to ChatGBT.

to almost like copy, edit the text and then they go back. It’s like, my goodness, like this is going to continue to create this friction as I like to call it between humans and technology. And it goes.

John Jantsch (10:37.038)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:45.566)

Imagine when we have an entire generation that that’s all they know.

Carlos Gil (10:49.821)

Well, like imagine what’s really scary is imagine you and I not even have to record a podcast because there’s so much content of you and there’s so much content in me over the years. The AI knows my face and my voice and it could just recreate this conversation. Like it exists right now. There’s AI conversational platforms that you can record 15 seconds of your voice and it will just record a podcast for you. It’s insane what it can do. And that’s great. We’re going to continue to see that.

John Jantsch (11:04.94)

Yeah, people are doing it. Yeah.

Carlos Gil (11:16.127)

I firmly believe that we’re entering an era where there’ll be bestselling books written by AI, top podcasts on Spotify that are created by AI. There’s gonna be new billionaires are created. There will be new billionaires created because of AI, because of systems. My whole point here though is don’t lose sight of human to human relationships. Like that will always outweigh

John Jantsch (11:22.822)

totally.

Carlos Gil (11:43.487)

what technology can do. And the reason for that is because, you know, this is like just old school business, right? It’s like, I’m going to speak right now that the Gen Zers out there, they’re listening or watching, like business has always been predicated based on who you like, trust and relate to. So if you like someone, you have a higher likelihood to do business with them. If you trust them, if you relate to them, you want to do business with people that you like, trust and relate to. And I’m sorry, in an AI driven world, where it’s really noisy,

John Jantsch (11:48.866)

Yes.

Carlos Gil (12:10.367)

Yes, it becomes challenging to sift through that noise. But inevitably, if you’re able to connect with people, IRL, or you’re able to connect with people online and kind of weed out the AI element of that relationship, like, yeah, man, it’s just old school business 101.

John Jantsch (12:28.238)

You know, a lot of times people, think everybody gets that, you know, that idea of be more human, be more human. But this sounds really silly, but I have a lot of people who are like, well, how do you do that? You know, how do you, how do you communicate that? And I, and I think the, the real thing that AI doesn’t do is it can’t make up a story that only I know, never will. Um, you know, right. So storytelling, uh, vulnerability, uh, I don’t see too much AI kind of saying, look, I made this mistake and here’s what I learned from it.

Carlos Gil (12:46.099)

Right?

John Jantsch (12:54.827)

So, I mean, think some of those elements need to be in our marketing to kind of show or communicate the humaneness, don’t they?

Carlos Gil (13:02.139)

Absolutely. And look, like the other element of this that I want to reel and it’s something I’m very passionate about right now is this whole notion of owning your data, right? Like AI aside, AI is great from operational standpoint, but we are living right now in this just noisy digital ecosystem. And I write about this in the book. I talk about this one when I’m on stage. I take it you’ve seen the movie Cast Away, John? Right. It’s one of my favorite movies of all time. And anyone that follows my work, whether you read it or you read my podcast,

John Jantsch (13:10.712)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:25.198)

yeah, sure, sure.

Carlos Gil (13:31.795)

like this, or you see me speak on stage, I always make analogies. I’m like, what kind of has helped me as a marketer define my voice in this whole space is I’m not a textbook marketer. one these guys that I’ve been in the trenches, I’ve done the work, I’ve worked in corporate, I’ve started businesses, and I learned and I go out and teach. And I use a lot of analogies. So my point of where I’m going with this is that in the movie Castaway, Tom Hanks is stranded on this island. And throughout the movie, he’s talking to a volleyball named Wilson.

And I often use this comparison that we as digital marketers are the equivalent of Tom Hanks speaking to a volleyball, right? We produce all this content. We spend all this time in the lab making videos, making shorts, making reels, writing blogs. And if no one consumes them, right? No one’s listening. Then that is the equivalent of Tom Hanks speaking to Wilson. So you have all this noise that’s taking place every single day. And it’s not just brands competing against other brands. Like way back in the day, I used to run social media for a brand named Winn-Dixie.

there’s supermarket chain here in Florida. And the primary competitors was Publix and Walmart, and Albertsons and a couple other stores. Well, nowadays, if you’re a supermarket chain, just using this example, you’re not competing against supermarkets, so we’re talking about food, you’re competing against bloggers or vloggers, you’re competing against influencers, cooks, you’re competing against anyone that’s in your category, that’s taking market share away from your brand, which is why I go back to the basis of

relationships be important. And one of my passionate topics right now in this era that we’re in is this notion that you need to own your data. You cannot rely on these social networks to give you reach. You cannot rely on the little breadcrumbs that Metta or Instagram give you. You just can’t. We recently saw TikTok go through a very scary situation where they were temporarily banned. And that I believe should be a wake up call to every single business, every single creator, influencer, anyone.

John Jantsch (15:15.15)

you

Carlos Gil (15:25.545)

who’s relying on these technologies to grow and promote their business, you cannot rely on them. You need to use them for reach. You need to use them to create awareness for your business. But inevitably, you need to be taking those relationships, i.e. those followers, you to move them over into systems and platforms like email. You need to own data and you cannot be reliant because unfortunately, when you do become reliant on these systems, you are just putting too much control in their hands.

John Jantsch (15:53.71)

Yeah, you know, it used to be, mean, when, I don’t know, let’s say 2005, 2006 or so when social media started, you know, popping on the scene, it was very much seen as a top of the funnel. Like here’s how to get reach. Here’s how to get exposure. Here’s how to get seen. But you got to drive people back, you know, to the property of your own. Mainly, we tried to drive people back to our websites, right? We’d post our blog and say, here, come read my blog here. Well, now a lot of those platforms.

Don’t ever want you to leave. And so, you you get penalized for doing any of that kind of drive people back. And another thing I’m seeing happen is, you know, on TikTok, you’re seeing entire journey or entire, you know, funnel happening on TikTok. It’s no longer just top of the funnel. People are actually transacting. So, so how, how do people kind of balance that idea that I now need to be more places with like a full, you know, full range of content as well as, you know,

I 100 % agree, own your own data.

Carlos Gil (16:56.157)

You know, I’ve been saying this, John, since probably about 2015 when I started speaking. I go back and I look at some of my earlier content. I’m like, man, I’ve been saying the same thing for a decade now. And one of the key terms I have said to folks, and this goes back to when I worked in corporate marketing running socials, have an omnichannel presence. Don’t be married to one platform. Use these platforms the way that they use you.

And I’ll just tell you as someone that has spent a lot of time in these platforms as a user, and again, having worked for a major social network, these social networks at the end of the day, they all do the same thing. They’re all digital advertising platforms. And I think this is something that’s lost upon the majority of creators because again, like let’s think of it, your average business owner, your average influencers using platforms, they’re just trying to get rich. They’re trying to continue to build a community, get followers. The name of the game should not be to get followers.

Your objective as a business needs to be to generate more revenue, right? Followers, it’s a vanity metric, right? Like, you know that you’ve worked in the industry for a very long time as well. So I always am constantly preaching this. Use these platforms the same way they use you. The way they use you is they’re using you because you’re creating contents, keeping people on the platforms. And as long as you’re keeping people on the platforms, they’re selling more ads and they’re making more money, right? Like they are in the business of making money. That’s what these social networks do. And again,

John Jantsch (17:52.878)

Yes.

John Jantsch (18:20.184)

Yeah. Well, and let’s throw Google in under the bus too. mean, that’s what Google’s, you know, existence is as well.

Carlos Gil (18:25.193)

Yeah, it doesn’t make them bad. Like by any means, like if anyone from Google or LinkedIn or better, any of these platforms are listening or watching, like this doesn’t make them bad. It’s just understanding the game. Like these are businesses. So if I am running a business, right, I always use this analogy again, going back to the analogy, if I, for example, am running, let’s just say a flea market, right? We all know what a flea market is. You cannot walk into my flea market and set up a table and sell without paying a hundred bucks to the owner of the flea market.

John Jantsch (18:35.554)

Right. Yep.

John Jantsch (18:49.762)

Right.

Yeah, right,

Carlos Gil (18:53.929)

to rent for a day. If you’re a barber, you can’t go to a barber shop and cut hair and not expect to give the owner his or her cut. That’s just business. Social media networks operate the same exact way. And again, it doesn’t make them bad. You just have to understand the rules of the game. And normally when I do my talks, have like, sorry, I have this slide behind me and it has like a casino and like Zuckerberg’s face in front of it. And I always say like,

look at meta, for example, and like they are a form of casino, because they’ll give you a little dopamine, they’ll let you win here and there in the form of a viral video or your post might reach, you know, more than 1 % of your following audience. But they’re not gonna let you win all the time. And they’re not gonna let you do it for free. And you have to pay to play inevitably. And again, man, like I love this space. Like, I know we’ve talked about AI, and we’re trying to get as much in and in the time that we’re together. I love I just love the space, man.

John Jantsch (19:24.654)

Yeah.

Carlos Gil (19:50.911)

I’ve worked in social media professionally since oh wait, I got onto social media in 1995, back then when I was 12 and it was known as AOL. I have grown up evolving with this in my life. I’ve made a lot of money as an entrepreneur using it. I’ve made a lot of money as a creator using it. I’ve helped businesses make a lot of money using these tools. Like I love them. They’re great. However,

where I do keep it 100 as a thought leader and speaker in the space is what I’ve already said. And I’ll repeat it one more time. If it’s cool, you cannot rely on these networks alone. You have to have an omni-channel strategy. And that means go wide, have a presence on multiple platforms, build a community within those platforms. Don’t just rinse and repeat your content because now you’re not giving people an incentive to go follow you in different channels. And most importantly, you need to find ways to own your data, which is pretty simple. Start up a newsletter, right?

John Jantsch (20:33.038)

you

Carlos Gil (20:45.671)

to get response, sign up, get a newsletter. And then as you’re creating content that people enjoy seeing, remind them, hey, if you want to see more of this, if you want to be a part of my insider circle, my club, my mastermind, however you frame it, now you have a solution to give people that you own. So you don’t have to rely on the out.

John Jantsch (21:02.435)

Yes.

Yeah. I, know, just another practical nod to that idea is that a lot of times people have to bump into you in about five places before they start paying attention. you know, so it’s, it’s the old, gotta hear, you know, I gotta hear your message or see your sign or whatever it is multiple times before I’m really going to, to start tuning in. Well, Carlos, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the duct tape marketing podcast. Where would you invite people to find, to connect with you first off, but then find out more about the end of marketing.

Carlos Gil (21:34.303)

Yeah, for sure. So once again, John, thank you so much for having me on your podcast today. It has been a pleasure. You can learn about the end of marketing by going to Amazon. Just look up end of marketing. There’s the first and second edition. Also, I want to call out, get response, shout out, get response, go to get response.com. You can sign up for a free trial there. If you have any questions with regards to setting up a newsletter, email marketing, please be sure to reach out to me. You can connect with me on all the socials, Carlos skill 83 and LinkedIn.

is my go to platform of choice if you want you can connect on me there but I love Instagram I love tiktok love Facebook I am a proponent of look let’s get to know each other LinkedIn is great but you only get to know so much about me and me of you on LinkedIn it’s professional social network and at the end of the day so if you’re on Instagram look me up at Carlos guilty 3 let me know that you heard this episode of the duct tape podcast and any way that can help you out let me know I’m here I got you

John Jantsch (22:32.878)

Awesome. I appreciate it, Carlos, and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Carlos Gil (22:37.599)

All right, John, I appreciate you.

Your Book Launch Needs a Marketing Plan

Your Book Launch Needs a Marketing Plan written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Alex Strathdee

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Alex Strathdee, CEO of Shelf Life and author of Before the Bestseller. Alex is an expert in book marketing, having helped over 1,000 authors across 50+ niches get real results. His insights challenge the traditional belief that publishers will promote your book and reveal the essential strategies every author must use to drive their own success.

During our conversation, Alex shared powerful and practical advice on how to sell books, create a compelling book launch plan, and avoid the most common book marketing mistakes. From free reader seeding to building an author email list, Alex outlines a repeatable book sales strategy that empowers authors to treat their book like a business asset—whether you’re self publishing or working with a traditional publisher.

Alex’s approach to nonfiction book marketing is data-driven, entrepreneurial, and deeply practical. Whether you’re a seasoned business owner or just starting out, the insights from this episode can help you avoid wasted effort—and get real ROI from your book.

Key Takeaways:

Publishers won’t market your book. Authors must take ownership of their book promotion strategy.
Think of your book like a product. If it’s good (and light, as Alex says), it needs only wind—your marketing—to take off.
Pick a sales goal. Whether it’s 1,000 or 20,000 copies, defining a target helps guide every marketing tactic.
Use free reader seeding. Get your book into the hands of people who can talk about it and create buzz.
Break down your sales goal into channels. Consider email, podcasts, Amazon ads, or lumpy mail to move copies strategically.
Your email list is gold. Start small with 100 engaged readers and build from there—this is traffic you own.
Use VA support for outreach. Outsourcing book promotion tasks helps you scale more efficiently.
Don’t overlook physical presence. Alex shares how one book sold millions after being spotted in a car wash!
Design a book funnel. Use your book as a lead magnet for higher-ticket services like courses or coaching.
Presentation matters. From soft t-shirts to custom editions, packaging your book with care can spark word-of-mouth and long-term publishing success.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introduction to Alex Strathdee
[01:03] Do Publishers Promote Books?
[02:45] Mistakes in Book Marketing
[06:54] How is AI Affecting Book Marketing?
[08:30] What is the Goal of your Book?
[09:39] Seeding Readers with no Audience
[13:34] Team and Tools to Help You with Your Book
[16:03] Positioning Yourself to get Lucky

More About Alex Strathdee:

Check out Alex Strathdee’s Website
Connect with Alex Strathdee on LinkedIn
Read Before The Bestseller: Your Proven Path to Book Sales Without Wasting Time & Money by Alex Strathdee

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.951)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Alex Strathdee. He is the CEO of Shelf Life, where he helps authors market books. After working with over 1,000 books and 50 plus niches, he wanted to know what advice to give authors whose books weren’t selling. Clients include Mike McCallewitz, Alan Dibbs, Michael Bungastanier, Tony Fidel, Reid Hoffman. He hosts.

his own podcast, Before the Best Seller with authors who have sold over 10,000 copies, which include Dan Pink, Kim Scott, and others. But we’re going talk about his book today, Before the Best Seller, your proven path to book sales without wasting time and money. So Alex, welcome to the show.

Alex Strathdee (00:47.864)

John, it’s a dream come true being here growing up with you as one of the marketing greats to get to have a chat with you is pretty cool.

John Jantsch (00:55.227)

I appreciate that. So I know the answer to this, but I’m just going to let you let you hit it out of the park. When I write a book, doesn’t the publisher promote my book?

Alex Strathdee (01:09.422)

You would think that is why we exist is because Seth Godin, I know, has a good statistic that, you know, authors spend 90 % on or they make revenue from 90 % of the 90 % of the revenue is from their backlist and they only spend 2 % of their their budget on actually launching new books, which is a statistic that every author should be listening to and thinking, oh, so I can’t expect my publisher to actually market.

John Jantsch (01:10.627)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:24.835)

Huh.

John Jantsch (01:36.725)

Yeah, I’ve actually published, let’s say I self-published one book, six books have been with major publishers. And I can say that not only do they not promote your book, they don’t know how, quite frankly. I mean, they’re pretty rooted in some ancient approaches.

Alex Strathdee (01:56.43)

And that’s how I came into this industry was actually getting like pretty much scammed by someone who was like, oh, here’s what book marketing really is. And I was like, oh, wait, I’m going to be our famous rich, you know, author tomorrow. Wow, that’s fantastic. All I have to do is become an Amazon bestseller. Cool. And then you quickly find out that’s that’s not how you become an author.

John Jantsch (02:11.458)

Yeah

John Jantsch (02:16.035)

Well, and the other thing of course, and I’m sure you’re experiencing this, my first book came out in 2007. There weren’t a lot of nonfiction books, quite frankly, particularly from marketers. Now there’s probably been five titles that have come out since we started this show. I mean, it’s crazy.

Alex Strathdee (02:32.942)

There’s a marketing book for every niche now. There was one book that I was marketing that is, Kroll Space Repair. It’s insane, the niches that you find these days. But I love niches. I think niches are some of the best places to market.

John Jantsch (02:47.285)

So where do you find, we’ll start with the mistakes. Where do you find people making a mistake? I know the biggest one is they write a book and go, okay, now what? Probably, but what are some of the other common mistakes?

Alex Strathdee (02:56.77)

Yeah, the first. I’ll first start with a piece of education and it’s how to think about your book, and it’s a analogy that I actually stole from Ricardo Fayette of Reidsy, and it’s it’s the book is a ship analogy where essentially your book is a ship and how good your book is is how and how, you know, the word of mouth will spread for that book is how light the material of that ship is made of. So if you have a really, really good book, you have a really young.

think I was reading your Wikipedia before this as well. You like your woodworking, so we’ll use a nice wood reference here. You know, if you have a really good book, then it’s a light piece of wood, right? So, you know, then your book, all that that ship needs is some wind in the sails and it starts to cruise along. If your book is made of lead, meaning it’s a terrible book and people don’t want to share it, then yeah, you can strap rockets to the side. But the second you turn off those rockets, it’s going to sink to the bottom of ocean. So the first thing is to think about your book as a ship.

John Jantsch (03:46.563)

You

Alex Strathdee (03:54.72)

And so the next question you get is, well, how do I know what my book is made of? And the answer to that is by product testing it. So it’s by committing to. this is, your question was, where do people actually start with their marketing? The starting point is picking a number. So that is the Bill Gladstone, who’s the late former literary agent to people like Eckhart Tolle, Marie Kondo, Jack Canfield. His whole thing is that in order for a book to be commercially successful, you need to see 20,000 copies into the wild.

Now, if your book is about crawl space repair, the odds of you seeding 20,000 copies is pretty low, right? So you get to realize that there’s some nuance in here, depending on the industry that you’re a part of. Rob Fitzpatrick says that number only needs to be 1000. He’s a author of right. You saw books. He focuses more on like writing really, really good nonfiction books. And the truth is the numbers somewhere between 1000 and 20,000. And it’s up to the author to figure out what that number is.

John Jantsch (04:29.559)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (04:43.478)

It’s a book.

John Jantsch (04:51.053)

So.

I mean, again, I’m trying to process that comment. if I’ve published a book or self-published a book or I’m thinking about putting a book out, am I now then one of my first tasks is I need to get a thousand people who I think would be interested in this and send them a copy?

Alex Strathdee (04:58.094)

Yes. Yeah.

Alex Strathdee (05:12.46)

That is one of the ways. we call that free reader seating and the the but yeah, essentially once you have your number, what that is, is that’s empowering because where most authors start in their book marketing is just talking to, you know, like marketing salespeople of, you need this program, you need this program, you don’t really know what you’re trying to achieve. You just kind of think that like, well, if I make the New York Times bestseller list, then my book did what it’s supposed to do, right?

John Jantsch (05:13.709)

Yeah.

Alex Strathdee (05:36.814)

And so just having an understanding of what you’re actually trying to achieve with your book is that will solve half of your marketing issues. Because once you have your number, you break that down into, OK, I’m going to move 200 copies through podcasting. I’m to 100 copies through my email list. I’m going to move 200 copies through Amazon ads. Right. And then you actually break that seeding number down into many goals. And those are the different tools of book marketing that I talk about with him.

John Jantsch (06:02.263)

So we’ve probably all encountered a book that you’re like, this is really bad. Why is it selling so many copies?

Alex Strathdee (06:11.852)

Yeah, yeah. The one of my one of my shocking things, it’s kind of like, you know, Febreeze didn’t sell until a marketer figured out how to make it sell right. Like until someone was like, it shouldn’t have no smell. It should have a smell because that indicates to people that the room is clean. Right. So, you know, at the end of the day, I think you can have a pretty mediocre book. And if you have a really good marketing strategy behind it, it’s going to do a whole lot better than a book that has no marketing and is, you know, the best book in the world. And

You know, so that’s one of the things I tell authors is like, you know, I know we have a fellow friend, Mike McCallewitz, you he and get different, you know, are you like, you have a responsibility to market if your thing is the best thing on the market. You know, you’re being selfish by actually not having a marketing plan behind that book. And there’s a lot of authors would be bestselling authors that get stopped because they’re, think that marketing their book is beneath them.

John Jantsch (07:05.763)

Yeah. So we’re, always make a joke of this. We’re seven minutes in the show. I’m going to mention AI for the first time. so how is, how is AI affecting in your view, both the written word as well as the, marketing component of, of marketing.

Alex Strathdee (07:14.542)

Let’s do it.

Alex Strathdee (07:28.844)

I think what it comes down to is brand at the end of the day, you know, there’s, that’s one of the big issues on Amazon right now is there’s a lot of people selling courses for like make a million dollars writing AI created books or whatever have you. Yeah. And it’s like, you can put those books up there, but you’re still going to have the same issue that the regular author has, which is to market those books. Like, so I think that

John Jantsch (07:40.023)

Right, 10 books a day, right, yeah.

Alex Strathdee (07:52.518)

I’m not afraid of, you know, I think it comes back to your marketing, right? Like if you have a really good marketer who’s empowered by AI, then maybe they’ll start moving some AI books, but we’re starting to look into using tools like make.com to automate like social media creation and posting based on like best practices in the industry. So think make.com is a great low code platform for some people who are a little more tech savvy to start looking at. But I mean, there’s, lots of ways, you know, like we use chat GPT to write our job descriptions.

John Jantsch (08:14.765)

Yeah, yeah.

Alex Strathdee (08:20.44)

You know, like you have someone on your team that takes half a day to write a job description, just ask ChatGPT to ask you for a meta ads expert and hire them in the Philippines, right? So I think there’s a lot of things that like from on the surface level, ChatGPT can start to really help authors with, you know, where they don’t have to know how to write a full on job description. They can have ChatGPT do that for them. And then on a deeper level, you can start using platforms like make.com to create workflows and go a little bit deeper with the tools.

John Jantsch (08:20.76)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:26.573)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:48.675)

important do you think it is, particularly I’m talking about non-fiction books, so business authors, how important do you believe that it is that most authors should also have a course and maybe a certification or a coaching program or something like that that actually comes from the book?

Alex Strathdee (09:06.102)

Yeah, and that’s an interesting, you know, because even fiction and nonfiction have entirely different business models that you’re working with. Right. And so like one of our first steps with authors is always to figure out what is it you’re actually trying to achieve with this book? Because, know, someone who has a this is also like something you have to realize when you’re bidding against people on a lot of the ad platforms like, you know, Amazon.

is oftentimes, especially in the nonfiction niche, you’re bidding against people who aren’t trying to make money on book royalties. They’re trying to sell a twenty thousand hundred thousand dollar course on the back end. So the days of making money through Amazon ads, one of the questions we get a lot. The days of making passive income with Amazon ads is over. They like very few books do that nowadays and very few traditional or self published authors. And I’m talking about self published to get full royalties are actually at that point in their, you know, in their book journey.

John Jantsch (09:34.967)

Yeah, right, Right, right, right, right.

John Jantsch (09:59.181)

So how does somebody who, like in my particular case, by the time I put my first book out, I had a huge email list. I had actually been publishing other stuff online, a blog and all podcasts and all that kind of stuff. So I had a decent live audience. How does somebody who, and let’s jump to fiction maybe, has no audience and is actually not known for writing Western literature, romance novels, all of sudden writes one. mean, how does that person

Seed some readers.

Alex Strathdee (10:30.466)

Yeah, that’s that’s a really great question and to to which does mean that it’s it’s more challenging. So let me let me try to make this as concise as possible because I could ramble for the next how much time you got, John. So when it comes to starting, I mean, you mentioned the number one thing and the most important thing is always to have a newsletter list. That’s the one traffic you control. You’ve had plenty of episodes talking about the importance of that. Right. So.

John Jantsch (10:34.039)

Which means it’s a hard question.

Alex Strathdee (10:56.654)

When it comes to your email list, one of the best ways and I stand on the shoulders of great marketers, know, so like Tim Grahl, who wrote your first 1000 copies, you know, he has a great way to start your Facebook, you know, your email list through Facebook, just reaching out to your friends and family one by one and saying, hey, I’m going to start, you know, writing about this topic.

you would you like to come along for the journey? And like, you know, if you’re running ads, do you know, to your webpage, you might get a conversion rate of like, well, like 3 % on your web on your website. As if you’re messaging people one by one on Facebook, like start with finding a hundred people to put on your email list, start sending out like a new valuable newsletter each week and happy to dive into that if you want. But you know, I just start with like who the people, you know, and ask them, Hey, here’s what I’m going to do. It’s kind of an experiment. Would you like to join and make that your first 100?

So that’s the first step. Any questions about like the email list side? I’m sure you probably were already already on top of that one. And the other way is I’ll actually use an example of a fictional author, John Strelecki. He’s the author of a cafe on the edge of the world. He’s now sold over 8 million books and he, kid you not, just went to chamber of commerce meetings and it hits a, his book is somewhat of a fable.

John Jantsch (11:50.007)

No, no, no, I think, yeah, yeah, we have definitely.

Alex Strathdee (12:11.48)

capable if you haven’t heard of it’s kind of like the go giver sort of that situation that has like a deeper meaning to it that’s easy to pick up on short read. And he went to Chamber of Commerce meetings having one on one conversations with people until he had personally handed out 10,000 copies of his book. He has now sold over 8 million copies of his book. Clearly that worked. And so a genuine conversation you like finding a local group that you can go to and know, hand copies out one by one with a genuine conversation. Now.

John Jantsch (12:14.018)

Yeah, yeah.

Alex Strathdee (12:38.286)

There’s a way you can do this the wrong way and there’s a way you can do this the right way. And I’ll use an example, you know, I’m out here in San Diego, if you couldn’t tell by the mustache and the long hair. we have namaste yoga, cliff side here on the ocean. You know, can picture it, beautiful blue sky, you know, right? You hear the waves breaking and, you know, a nice way to relax on a Saturday and Sunday morning. And this woman was walking by.

handing out post-it notes that just had nice messages on them. Like, you you’re pretty or like, you know, you’re smart or whatever. And on the back of those post-it notes was, you know, a Lincoln invite to grab her book. But like she was starting with value. was like, would you like a positive note? And of course, like, you know, it’s also her, her audience, right? Like an audience of yogis on a cliffside on a, on a Saturday morning at 10 a.m. is, is her demographic. And you compare that against, I was hosting a barbecue for a friend, you know, here at my, my apartment complex.

John Jantsch (13:20.472)

Yeah, yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Alex Strathdee (13:33.534)

And this man, I guess, saw a gathering of us down by the grill and walked down and began telling people about his AI book that we should all go by and read. like most of the people were like service workers, like baristas, no interest in learning about AI. And he’s like forcing AI on everyone. It was the most uncomfortable situation. So like when you’re having these conversations, be the first, not the second.

John Jantsch (13:48.653)

Yeah

John Jantsch (13:57.995)

Yeah, that’s awesome. What would, so if somebody’s, I know there’s wide ranges and variances on all kinds of, depends, but if somebody’s getting started with a nonfiction book, they’ve got a business as well. They’re doing a couple of things. What’s the team, the system, you know, the approach that kind of like they need to be doing this, this, this, this kind of thing.

Alex Strathdee (14:21.646)

Yeah, yeah. And I’m all for systems like one of my favorite marketers, Alan Dibb, know, random acts of marketing don’t work. That’s like I will sing that from, you know, the mountaintops until the day I die. And so, you know, having VA’s is great. You know, I have a whole section. I talk a lot about VA’s and I know you’ve covered a lot about VA’s as well. But the system is start with your high number, break down into the littler numbers, pick out the tools that you’re you’re you know, whether it’s and I’ve got, you know, a few of the tools that

John Jantsch (14:37.933)

Yeah.

Alex Strathdee (14:50.114)

you know, we’ve seen great success with is like free reader seatings, like finding people on LinkedIn. And so having a team member who is actually finding your ideal person on LinkedIn, on Instagram and messaging them one-on-one saying, Hey, we’ve got this free book. Would you like, you know, a copy of it for free? And most of it’s like a free gift. Like, yeah, people are all for, you know, I know you’re a fan of lumpy mail. Like I love lumpy mail. And so, you know, that’s, that’s something that works really well. We’re doing that with like Dan Heath right now that he just launched reset.

John Jantsch (15:09.795)

Yeah. Right.

Alex Strathdee (15:18.586)

And so for him, like that’s already led to two additional, like one lady wrote back and was like, wow, I’m going to make this my book for the book, my book club of like 80 people. Right. It’s like putting yourself a lot of the seating number that you, you pick is putting yourself in a position to get lucky. But like, I find that when it comes down to systems, a lot of the research is, can be outsourced. So like finding those people on LinkedIn, messaging those people on LinkedIn, like you don’t have the time to be there messaging these people one-on-one. and the great thing is, you know, like you mentioned, these people have businesses.

John Jantsch (15:26.381)

Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Strathdee (15:48.48)

If they have, know, like you’re essentially sending them like your business card at the same time, like your, your guess, you know, you, it’s a, yeah, you got to pay for shipping and handling or whatever. even traditionally published authors will oftentimes be able to get a deal with their publisher for like six bucks. Always look at your, author, author copy price if you’re a traditionally published author, but, yeah.

John Jantsch (15:53.272)

Yes.

John Jantsch (16:06.307)

Well, would also tell you those books cost them nothing. I always negotiated a thousand bucks that they gave me.

Alex Strathdee (16:12.053)

Yeah. Good. That’s great. Yeah. That’s I’m going to start using that. That’s really smart. I didn’t know you could, you could get away with that. But, yeah, having people who are doing the researching and the messaging, I think like anytime you’re doing cold researching or cold messaging, like that’s a great opportunity to start bringing in an assistant for that stuff.

John Jantsch (16:31.245)

Yeah, and that kind of thing can be had, you know, fairly inexpensively. I want to go back something you just touched on a little bit, putting yourself in a position to get lucky. I know you spent a lot of time in the book on that. You’ve even got a couple examples in the book. You want to share any Oprah moments?

Alex Strathdee (16:48.21)

One of my favorite stories and a lot of people don’t know this is Robert Kiyosaki. Everyone’s heard of Rich Dad Poor Dad, right? So what a lot of people don’t know is that is how that book became the best selling personal finance book of all time. And the way it was done was Robert called up his buddy who owned a car wash and he said, hey, do you mind if I sell some copies of Rich Dad Poor Dad in your car wash? And his buddy was like, sure, whatever.

John Jantsch (16:54.147)

Sure. Yeah.

Alex Strathdee (17:14.026)

There’s he is a bookstore of one at that point. There is no you know, like customers are looking over at you know, at air fresheners to buy while they’re waiting for their car to get washed or they’re using the unusable bathrooms that you know at car washes and Then they walk, know to the over the cashier and wow, it’s this personal finance book. Let me pick that up I have a little time. Let me read it and So one of the people who happened to walk through that car wash was one of the founders of Amway

John Jantsch (17:17.315)

You

John Jantsch (17:34.477)

Right.

Alex Strathdee (17:40.534)

Now not talking about, whether Amway is a good company or what you think about, you know, rich divorce or anything, but the person picked this book up and loved it so much that he then took it to the other executives. And he’s like, this is a powerful tool for us to educate and empower our people. so Amway started to fly Robert Kiyosaki all around the country to speak at events. And that book quickly became their Bible. And he found his micro community, a lot of

Authors will find their micro community early on. Like Mike McAuliffe did this with Profit First. He was speaking on college campuses and kids were taking home those books on spring break and moms were picking up those books and reading and fixing their company’s finances or the company business or the family business. And that was his following. And he never meant for the book to find its way to those people. yeah, mean, putting yourself in a position to get lucky is what a lot of that picking your number to begin with is doing.

John Jantsch (18:33.911)

Yeah. And really the seating probably, I mean, you have no idea who it’s going to, I mean, maybe you targeted somebody, but you have no idea who, what their circle of influence is. And I think that’s, just becomes a numbers game at that point as you’re, as you’re kind of stressing, isn’t it?

Alex Strathdee (18:49.41)

And that’s why people will be like, give away my book for free. it’s like, well, first of all, a lot of people will put their book up for expensive on launch. And it’s like, yeah, their mom buys it, their cousin buys it, their son buys it. But at end of the day, are you actually solving for any of those people? that’s a big part. Are you actually solving the problem of any of those people? And so that’s a big part of it is your number has to consist of people whose problem you’re actually solving for. Because if you’re not, then no one’s going to get excited about your book.

John Jantsch (18:53.111)

Yeah

John Jantsch (19:18.979)

It was a book that I actually had the author on here. He has since passed away, but called Giftology by John Ruhlman. And he did what I thought was a really interesting thing. His book was published by a publisher, but he talked to publisher into letting him create a special edition of the book. It was hard bound, like kind of leather, you know, had, you know, gold lettering on it. And, you know, he sent out like 4,000 of those.

And it was in this really incredible package and it just, people couldn’t not talk about it. And it just really launched his book because he just got so much word of mouth before anybody had really read it just by the presentation.

Alex Strathdee (19:59.598)

Packages can be a really fun way to do it. Brian Johnson, who recently really released art and actually sent giftology funny enough, like two weeks ago, I had a partnership and I was like this, like do this. So it’s funny that you bring that up. the yeah, and he sent if you’re going to send this is a little like, you know, people love these small little things. If if you’re going to do T-shirts, John, make them the softest, most comfortable T-shirt you’ve you’ve ever worn so that people actually wear it. I have so.

John Jantsch (20:03.094)

Eh.

John Jantsch (20:08.738)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (20:21.091)

Right.

John Jantsch (20:26.049)

Yep.

Alex Strathdee (20:27.096)

Bryan Johnson sent me two of the literally softest shirts I own and they’ve become my travel shirts. So I have walked through about like 30 airports wearing these shirts and been a walking billboard for this guy. So that’s like, if you’re going to do like shirts for your book, make sure the title is on there and make them the softest that you could possibly make them.

John Jantsch (20:32.523)

You

John Jantsch (20:46.403)

Love it. Love it. Well, Alex, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you and find out more about before the bestseller?

Alex Strathdee (20:56.204)

Yeah, I’m always up for a conversation. know, we pride ourselves in like just having very honest conversations with authors and kind of like where they’re at. We prefer to work with authors for years. So if we don’t think like an engagement is going to work out for more than like a small period of time, then like we’ll tell you that. Yeah, reach out to us. Our website is get shelf life dot com. Feel free to shoot me an email if you have a question about book marketing. Alex at get shelf life dot com.

And yeah, check out our book before the best seller on Amazon now.

John Jantsch (21:27.267)

Well, again, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Alex Strathdee (21:32.952)

This is a bucket list item, John. Thanks for having me on.

John Jantsch (21:35.395)

You

Build a Brand Gen Z Wants to Work (and Buy) From

Build a Brand Gen Z Wants to Work (and Buy) From written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Len Silverman

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Len Silverman, a veteran marketer, former Learning Center owner, and author of Mesh: Aligning Your Personal Brand with Gen Z. With over 30 years of experience and firsthand insight into the Gen Z workforce, Len offers a clear roadmap for companies struggling to connect with this rising generation of workers and consumers.

Len shares why simply labeling Gen Z as “lazy” or “hard to manage” is a massive misstep. Instead, businesses need to understand Gen Z traits and align their company culture and employer branding with what this generation truly values—authenticity, flexibility, purpose, and opportunity. Whether you’re hiring Gen Z employees or marketing to them, the key lies in understanding the intersection of personal branding and company identity.

Len Silverman’s insights are a wake-up call for any business that wants to stay relevant, both in the hiring market and in customer engagement. If you want your brand to resonate with the next generation, it starts with getting real about who you are—and who they are.

Key Takeaways:

Understand the Gen Z Workforce: Gen Z isn’t afraid to ghost employers—but it’s often due to broken hiring experiences, not apathy. Simplify, clarify, and personalize your process.
Personal Branding Matters: Gen Z expects employers to have a brand identity that mirrors their own values. They’re looking for alignment, not just a paycheck.
Company Culture Is Everything: This generation wants mentorship, not micromanagement. They crave environments where feedback is open, and purpose drives work.
Think Employee Journey, Not Just Customer Journey: Gen Z sees work as part of their life experience. Treat recruitment and retention like a well-crafted marketing funnel.
Authenticity Wins: Performative branding won’t last. Gen Z will call it out. Make sure your values show up in your leadership, actions, and communications.
Mentorship Over Management: Support Gen Z through peer mentors or structured programs to guide behavior, expectations, and professional development.
Generational Understanding Builds Trust: Bridging the gap between Gen X leadership and Gen Z employees starts with empathy, open dialogue, and mutual respect.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introduction to Len Silverman
[00:53] What is the Personal Brand of Gen Z
[02:56] Common Stereotypes of Genz
[04:16] The Old Ways Aren’t Going to Work
[06:39] The Employee Journey
[08:35] Importance of Cultural Consistency
[10:39] Changing Mindsets
[12:44] Gen Z Customers
[14:19] Common Mistakes Trying to Align with Gen Z
[17:11] Turning Gen Z into A Players

More About Len Silverman:

Check out Len Silverman’s Website
Connect with Len Silverman on LinkedIn
Read MESH: Aligning the Personal Brand of Gen Z with your Company Culture by Len Silverman

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.176)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Len Silverman. Len has over 30 years of experience in marketing his own a seven figure company with dozens of employees in multiple states. As a former Learning Center owner, he has seen Gen Z grow up and has gotten to know the generation and what makes him tick. maybe that’s why he wrote a book called Mesh, Aligning Your Personal Brand with Gen Z of Gen, sorry.

I’ll try. Let’s try that all over again. Mesh aligning the personal brand of Gen Z with your company culture. So Len, welcome to the show.

Len Silverman (00:39.317)

Thank you. Appreciate you having me,

John Jantsch (00:40.864)

So, Gen Z is, as I recall, something like 13 to 28 years old now. Is that who we’re talking about?

Len Silverman (00:49.097)

Yeah, pretty much. look at 1997 as the beginning of that group. So yes.

John Jantsch (00:52.48)

Okay, okay. So the personal brand of Gen Z, what is that?

Len Silverman (00:58.643)

So, you lot of people these days are talking about personal branding. So I thought it’d be really nice to sort of combine that with things that I’m hearing about Gen Z on the street. But just to give you a little bit of a frame around this, I started in the learning center business in 2004. So at that point, Gen Z was seven years old and I owned learning centers for 21 years. So basically I have seen these kids grow up and I call them kids. Obviously some of them are young adults, but

More and more, as I talk to business owners and leaders, I’ve been hearing stories about, they’re so hard to work with and I can’t figure them out. And basically, some people are saying that they’re kind of washing their hands of it. And that really was disappointing to me. And I thought, well, the first thing is you’ve got to understand Gen Z. And I’m not saying that you, as a company, have to completely change to meet them where they are.

But I’m a big believer that you need to understand your customers, you need to understand your constituents, and in this case, you need to understand your potential employees. So I go into a lot of depth in terms of why the generation Gen Z is the way they are. You you can’t paint anyone with a broad brush. So they’re obviously not all the same, but they, you know, they experienced their economic downturn in 08 or 09 and watch what happened to their parents.

who maybe thought they had safe jobs. They saw the whole country shut down for COVID. They obviously grew up with phones in their hands for the most part. So their access to information and their view of the world is so much broader than mine was at that same age that I think their perspectives on working and being a part of a company are very different than my generation, Gen X, was when we were first coming out.

John Jantsch (02:35.064)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (02:54.828)

Yeah, and I think every, it’s interesting. I’ve read some society or societal studies on generations and a lot of it comes from what their parents experienced. That’s what they experienced as they were coming up. Same with, I was born in the sixties. mean, so my parents were post-World War II and it really has a lot of influence, but from a…

from a workplace standpoint, particularly, what are some of the stereotypes is the best word, that folks are saying, hey, I don’t get it because X.

Len Silverman (03:38.045)

Yeah, probably the one I hear the most is, they’re lazy. They don’t want to work. They ghost you. You you’ll not only set up an interview, but sometimes you’ll actually hire them and they don’t show up for the first day of work. So those are some of the common things that I hear. I also hear really quite a lot about. And first of all, I do want to preface this by saying, I’m not saying this. These are the things I’m hearing, but that they’re they’re kind of uppity that they will.

John Jantsch (04:03.192)

Yeah. Right.

Len Silverman (04:07.785)

they will sit in a meeting with senior executives and chime in like they have an equal seat at the table, which is an anathema to baby boomers and Gen Xers. We just frankly don’t get.

John Jantsch (04:18.552)

Yeah. Not going to turn this into a comedy routine, but I could. So who do you feel? mean, on the surface, you wrote this for maybe people like me that are hiring folks, But I think there’s kind of a broader audience for this, it?

Len Silverman (04:27.817)

Hahaha!

Len Silverman (04:42.557)

What I really, the people that I’m really trying to get to pay attention to this would be folks who are in a position where they are frequently hiring and need to understand that they are going to have to make some changes or adaptations in their company to work with this generation, which now is more than 20 % of the workforce. And obviously it’s only going to continue to grow because these

John Jantsch (05:06.67)

Mm.

Len Silverman (05:10.899)

these guys are becoming more of the age to work. So the old ways of doing things are not necessarily gonna work. And I’ll give you a couple for instance, when I started working, and this was probably the same for you, John, we had mentors and they maybe didn’t call themselves mentors. I had people who would grab my shoulder and say, Len, we don’t do this. You don’t do this in the office. If you’re in a meeting with my boss, you don’t talk. Those were things that I was told.

John Jantsch (05:33.134)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:38.606)

Yeah.

Len Silverman (05:41.203)

And in a lot of ways, I think that the folks that I’ve met with are almost a little afraid to have those kinds of conversations. But I will tell you that Gen Z craves mentorship. It has to be positioned the right way for them. They have a different way of speaking and being mentored than we did, but they still want that kind of tutelage. The main thing is they want opportunities. I found them to be extremely entrepreneurial.

John Jantsch (06:06.594)

Yeah.

Len Silverman (06:10.035)

And that’s whether they’re doing their own thing or within an organization. They’re basically doing what we call skill stacking. They just want to grow their own skill base, which means look for, you know, cross-functional opportunities for them and ways for them to grow their own personal skill, which hopefully they’ll continue to pay back to the company. But from their perspective, it also allows them to take those skills somewhere else. So that’s another thing is you got to be aware you’re.

interaction with a Gen Z employee might be shorter than it used to be with someone Gen X, Gen Y.

John Jantsch (06:43.085)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:48.494)

So if I’m a 24 year old looking for a new place to go work, would there be something in this book for me?

Len Silverman (06:58.847)

There would. First of all, we talk about it you’re going to be very familiar with this. I know that you and I and a lot of other people have talked about the customer journey for a long time and I’m a big believer in it. I know that there are people who have discussed the employee journey, but I hadn’t seen a whole lot where folks saw the interaction between a customer journey and an employee journey. To me, they’re kind of one in the same. And so,

John Jantsch (07:08.974)

Sure. Right.

John Jantsch (07:17.272)

Mm-hmm.

Len Silverman (07:27.847)

If I was a younger employee just starting out, I’d be looking at companies very differently. I would be looking at kind of the pre-application process, what kind of brand they’re positioning themselves with out in the marketplace. So if I get to know them, what are the things they’re going to make me like and trust them? I would be actively looking for companies that are talking about the things that are important to me. And I discuss those in the book.

John Jantsch (07:33.806)

Mm-hmm.

Len Silverman (07:57.225)

But I also give advice to the employer that some of the hoops you have to go through in today’s world when you submit an application to a company are just not going to work anymore. So you’ve got to make it transparent, quick. I’m not going to say easy, but at least it to be manageable for the applicant. So I think that to help Gen Z sort of understand and identify those companies that are clearly

John Jantsch (08:08.428)

Yeah, yeah.

Len Silverman (08:26.293)

trying to make a connection with them will make it a lot easier so they don’t do what I call crop dusting, which is going on and shooting out 40 or 50 resumes a day. Because that’s very disheartening when you do that. So they can spot things that I’m talking about in the book to identify those companies who are clearly making an outreach to them.

John Jantsch (08:38.124)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:47.79)

So, you know, there was a day when, you know, this is a prestigious company. This is a big company. You know, they pay well. mean, those were like, that was like the checklist, right? Now it might be paid a lot of flexibility for time off. They, they give to causes I believe in how much of that sort of balance of the brand is kind of just playing to who they’re trying to attract. mean, because the problem with brand and culture is it’s kind of hard to fake it.

you know, it usually comes out, you know, one way or another. So how much, you know, is, a company, you know, this, this idea of aligning their brand, you know, how much of that is, is intentional. How much of that is just, Hey, we’re already doing this stuff. We’re just not communicating it.

Len Silverman (09:35.445)

In my opinion, it’s very intentional. As matter of fact, I just made a LinkedIn post about five minutes before we jumped on here. And it talks about that kind of consistency that you can, you could talk about culture all day long, but at the end of the day, your culture will show itself through how you and your leaders represent your company on a daily basis. So from my perspective, for those companies that are serious about this, there’s pre-work that needs to be done. You know, you need a, you need a quick audit to make sure that your

John Jantsch (09:47.118)

Mm-hmm.

100%. Yeah.

Len Silverman (10:05.441)

of experience and your brand as a company are what you think that they are. Because otherwise you’re going to keep having these glancing blows where Gen Zers will try you out and they’re pretty quick to discover whether you’re a fit or not. And they’ll go find something else because they clearly have a work to live attitude versus a live to work attitude. So if it’s not you,

John Jantsch (10:19.309)

Mm-hmm.

Len Silverman (10:31.807)

they’ll go find some gig work until they’re able to find the next full-time job. So you really do need to look at your own internals and make sure that your company on a daily basis is what you think that it is, monitor and manage that, and then go out there looking for that new employee base. Your retention will be much better.

John Jantsch (10:36.237)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:53.41)

You know, I wonder how much generations, whatever all the letters we apply to them, millennials and Gen Xs, I wonder how much they could learn from that. Cause you know, was that, there was that kind of, they’re just lazy, you know, they don’t want to work hard, you know. And some of it was like, no, they just want to have a life. And you know, here I am working 80 hours a week, you know, thinking that that’s like the way.

And if they don’t want to do that, then like they’re wrong. So I’m, you know, I wonder how much the, um, you know, the new workplace, the modern workplace in the world could actually maybe gain from, uh, a different mindset.

Len Silverman (11:34.889)

You know, I remember clearly, I can’t remember if I talk about this story in the book or not, but I remember clearly one of the very first corporate jobs that I got. I’d been in the job maybe six months and my boss calls me in his office and he says, Len, I gotta tell you, I really appreciate your work ethic. And I had no idea what he was talking about. He said, you come in on time, when you go to lunch, you only take an hour for lunch. And he said, I gotta tell you, I’ve worked with a number of people your age and it’s very unusual.

Okay, and I’m Janette. So I don’t think what we’re talking about now is anything totally new. I think every older generation in a way kind of thinks the younger generation is a bunch of screw ups, which, you know, clearly they’re not. But what’s different today is I think we all talk more openly. I think that the ability to have these kinds of conversations are so much easier than they used to be. So now is a great time for employers to pick up on.

John Jantsch (12:06.711)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (12:11.426)

Yeah, every generation, right?

Len Silverman (12:35.623)

and realize, you know, again, this is a growing workforce. We have got to figure out how to make this work for everybody. And you mentioned work-life balance is going to be incredibly important for this generation. They’re going to look for, you know, what kind of community impact you’re having. So there are things that you could pay attention to and kind of put in place again, before you go out there full throatedly trying to hire these younger people.

John Jantsch (13:03.16)

You know, we’ve spent most of our time talking about employing the generation, but there’s a lot of them that could be customers too, right? And so would a similar kind of brand alignment, you know, apply to your marketing messaging?

Len Silverman (13:06.378)

Yeah.

Len Silverman (13:18.421)

Which is precisely, and I’m glad you brought that up, it’s precisely why I think that the employee journey and the customer journey are so closely related. Because early in that process, it doesn’t matter if you’re positioning your brand for employees or for customers, that voice should be the same. And so I do think that this has a huge impact. If you’re going after a Gen Z consumer base, the book clearly lays out what’s important to them.

John Jantsch (13:25.08)

Yeah. Yeah.

Len Silverman (13:47.303)

and can really help a company to kind of align not just their communication, but more importantly, what they’re doing every day with what Gen Z is looking.

John Jantsch (13:55.298)

Yeah, there’s certainly a growing trend in marketing circles of this idea of employee branding, where the idea that you’re a cool company to work for is a pretty good marketing message too.

Len Silverman (14:01.545)

Hmm?

Len Silverman (14:06.452)

Right.

I think it is. Yeah. I mean, we, want to be the cool kids and it’s, it’s good to work for a company that you could be proud of because as you know, I mean, you’ve got, you know, the marketing hourglass and the bottom of the hourglass is basically repeat and refer, which is retention and being an advocate for your company out in marketplace to find other employees. our end goal is really the same. And that’s to convert these employee customers into advocates for our, for our business.

John Jantsch (14:22.348)

Yes. Correct.

John Jantsch (14:40.312)

So I think a lot of companies, whether they wanted to or not, found that as a practical nature, we’re not going to find the people that we want if we don’t kind of realign our brand. What are some of the mistakes you see people that are actually trying to change? What has either been their perception or their reality? What are some mistakes in trying to kind of adapt and align with this new generation?

Len Silverman (15:06.345)

You know, it’s hard to say if it’s a mistake or not, because I think that the jury’s still out a little bit. But, you know, we’ve read in the press about DEI initiatives. And, you know, right down the street from me, we have Tractor Supply as an example, and they had initiated DEI as a department. And then they pulled back on that because they were getting pushback from their customer base. So were they doing that in order to grow sales, or were they doing that

John Jantsch (15:12.494)

Mm-hmm.

Len Silverman (15:35.547)

in order to attract this younger generation. I don’t know which it is, but again, it ultimately turned out to be a misalignment with their company culture. So I would say if you’re doing these kinds of things, if you are looking to use pronouns with all of your employees, just make sure that that absolutely aligns with the company you are. And you’re not simply doing that to try to placate

John Jantsch (15:46.401)

Right.

John Jantsch (15:55.246)

Thanks

Len Silverman (16:04.777)

Gen Z. Does that make sense? Those are the mistakes that I see. If you’re genuine, you’re fine.

John Jantsch (16:05.666)

Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent.

Well, and I think you go to really the root of all of this is be who you are is probably going to now, there some things that you can do to where I see people making mistakes is they have that alignment, but they just don’t communicate. You know, it’s like, well, of course we do that. That’s, know, that’s the right thing to do, you know, as opposed to, but then can you take that too far? And, you know, you see companies.

Len Silverman (16:27.977)

Right.

Len Silverman (16:32.732)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:39.534)

promoting their environmental consciousness. And it’s like, make styrofoam. So how far is too far?

Len Silverman (16:48.019)

But they’re aware of it.

Len Silverman (16:54.843)

You know, I think that is a very interesting point. And I think that is for each company and possibly its own board of directors and its customers and its employees to kind of decide for themselves. But you know, again, in marketing, we talk about content pillars. And I think for a company like we’re talking about, if I were them, I would come up with three or four areas that I would want to talk about, and then I would weight them. So

If environmental issues are important, but maybe they’re not the most important thing, I might spend 10 to 15 % of my time talking about that. And that would be internal conversations first to make sure that we do have that right mix that feels right.

John Jantsch (17:38.158)

How would you advise a company that wants to realign their brand, there’s also, it’s like, here’s our culture and we believe it and we’re gonna stay true to it. How does somebody like that attract, so they attract folks that want a job. How do they get that, how do they turn them into A players? They may be a little bit misaligned initially, but is there a way to then say, look,

Here’s how we do it here. Here’s why we do it that way. And some will fall off, but some will turn in day players.

Len Silverman (18:10.515)

You hit the nail on the head. We do it this way and this is why we do it this way. That’s the most important thing for this generation. They want to understand why. And if you’ve established a culture that I think we’re both talking about, then the whys are going to be there. And the other thing, I’ll go back to the mentorship thing again. You know, I talk about this in the book. I think it’s critical for these new employees.

You could set up a buddy, could be a peer mentor, it could be a leadership mentor, but someone who reinforces that message and helps that newer employee to shape how they’re presenting themselves to align with the company, most importantly, understanding why we’re asking to do that. And it could be, hey, I’ve been on your social media and I got to tell you that some of those things just don’t really align with what we’re doing. And let me tell you why, this is my customer.

and my customer doesn’t really like to see that on social media. okay. Well, that becomes pretty clear.

John Jantsch (19:09.442)

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let’s talk about abbreviations and punctuation. No, I’m just kidding. I’m just kidding. We’re not going to go there. So, so Len, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by. Where can where would you invite people to connect with you? Find out more about your work, but then obviously more about the book Mesh.

Len Silverman (19:18.389)

It’s dangerous stuff to talk about.

Len Silverman (19:35.687)

It is very simple. The easiest place to go is Lensilverman.com.

John Jantsch (19:42.606)

Awesome. Well, great. I think, it’ll be interesting to see, you know, we’re talking about Gen Z now what’s the next generation and what’s going to be like their iteration, right? that’s what we’re calling them. We’re going back to a, okay. Okay. All right. Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you taking a few moments to side by. Hopefully we’ll see you out there on the road someday soon.

Len Silverman (19:54.835)

Yeah, Gen Alpha. That’s what we’re calling him,

Len Silverman (20:07.093)

Thanks, John.

Why AI Isn’t Replacing You—It’s Freeing You

Why AI Isn’t Replacing You—It’s Freeing You written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Keith Lauver

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Keith Lauver, a serial entrepreneur, product launch expert, and founder of Atomic Elevator—an AI-powered marketing company behind Ella, a high-definition marketing platform. With six startups and over $34 million in product launches under his belt, Keith brings a sharp, practical lens to how AI can be used to transform marketing and business operations—especially for small business owners and agencies.

During our conversation, Keith broke down the real-world applications of AI marketing and how it’s not here to replace people—but to remove bottlenecks, automate repetitive tasks, and unlock creativity. By shifting the way we think about tools like ChatGPT and agent-based workflows, Keith challenges small businesses to stop treating AI like search and start viewing it as a team of collaborators. He also shares how his own company operates without a traditional org chart—thanks to the power of strategic marketing tools and automation.

Whether you’re leading a team, launching a new product, or running a solo consultancy, this episode offers a practical look at how AI and marketing automation can help you grow smarter, leaner, and more focused.

Key Takeaways:

AI is an amplifier, not a replacement. It removes low-value tasks so entrepreneurs can focus on strategy, creativity, and relationships.
Small businesses are underusing AI tools. Many still treat AI like a search engine instead of leveraging its full potential for automation and productivity.
High-definition marketing creates clarity. Tools like Ella reduce “fuzzy” marketing by integrating proven marketing frameworks and better data.
Agent-based AI is coming. The future involves task-specific agents collaborating in workflows—streamlining execution across teams.
Forget the org chart. Keith’s company operates around tasks, not job titles—powered by AI and fractional expertise.
Personalization needs data. AI in business thrives when it can access behavior, style, and preferences—delivering truly tailored content.
AI unlocks your superpower. By automating what you’re not great at, it helps you focus on the work that energizes you and drives business growth.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing Keith Lauver
[01:52] Understanding the Practical Uses of AI
[04:17] What are AI Agents?
[07:45] How Does AI Affect Organizational Structure
[11:46] AI Doesn’t Change Human Value
[16:22] Personalized Marketing
[17:37] Ella AI
[21:22] Privacy Concerns with AI

More About Keith Lauver:

Check out Keith Lauver’s Website
Connect with Keith Lauver on LinkedIn

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Want to elevate your marketing game? AdCritter pairs Connected TV ads with precise digital retargeting to drive real results. Discover how their full-funnel strategy can help your business grow smarter. Let them know Duct Tape Marketing sent you, and you’ll get a dollar-for-dollar match on your first campaign! Learn more at adcritter.com.

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.923)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Keith Lover. He is a serial entrepreneur and marketing expert who has founded six companies, raised over $34 million for product launches and now leads Atomic Elevator. His team specializes in product launch support and created Ella, a pioneering tool for high-definition marketing.

He started his entrepreneurial journey at 14. He secured clients like Trader Joe’s, Whole Foods, and inspires others as a speaker and mentor. We were just talking about it. He lives in Red Lodge, Montana, active community in community service through Young Life. So Keith, welcome to the show.

Keith Lauver (00:44.526)

Thanks so much, John. Good beer.

John Jantsch (00:46.172)

So what did you do at 14?

Keith Lauver (00:48.026)

my gosh. So I had the opportunity to, build a software platform for an airport in Billings. was painting pipes in the summer and they found out I knew something about computers. And during the regular smoke break time, I started creating a database to keep track of the paper towels and other inventory got invited upstairs. That turned into an invitation to build the software.

John Jantsch (00:56.883)

John Jantsch (01:09.907)

Keith Lauver (01:14.862)

And apparently KPMG had offered him a bid for about $20,000. I said I’ll do it for two and they took it. So that was the very first commercial client I had.

John Jantsch (01:26.547)

Well, I think I started my first business when was 16. It was not nearly as glamorous. I was going door to door convincing people to let me seal their driveway. I paid my way through high school and college doing similar things.

Keith Lauver (01:32.723)

my gosh.

Keith Lauver (01:38.016)

That’s.

Keith Lauver (01:44.072)

I think the idea of asphalt going down and paint going up, we do what we have to do. I just caught a lucky break that day, right?

John Jantsch (01:47.347)

So we, we’re going to talk about, AI a lot today. I think, it’s a hot topic. It’s probably the hottest topic going right now. I, have, in fact, I’ve started a group I call practical AI for marketing. because I think it’s just a lot of, with any technology, there’s all this futuristic talk of what it can do.

or what it, you know, is going to do someday. And I really liked always bring it down to, okay, that’s great, but what should it do? So in terms of, of your conversations with smaller businesses, how do you help them see the practical uses of AI and not sort of the robots running the world, you know, future.

Keith Lauver (02:25.271)

Yeah

Keith Lauver (02:40.046)

You know, one of things that I like to do is separate the application side of things from the construction side of things. And I think there’s a lot of people that are confused about that, John. think, you know, I’m reminded of a workshop that was being done for business owners in Montana a couple of weeks ago, and they brought in a prompt engineer and machine learning expert for the day to teach them how to do stuff that most of them really didn’t care about and frankly didn’t understand.

John Jantsch (03:06.557)

Right?

Keith Lauver (03:08.738)

that that was what was going to be the topic. So don’t think people even know what this beast called AI is. So there’s people who are building tools and then there’s people who are actually using tools. And those two probably need to be separated before I could even answer the next part of your question.

John Jantsch (03:25.029)

Yeah. Well, first off, then let’s back up a little bit. What percentage of businesses, business owners, people working for businesses, do you think are actually using even a simple interface like chat GPT?

Keith Lauver (03:37.888)

I think every business owner I’ve talked to has at least experimented with and tried chat GPT. When we take forms on our website, we ask them how frequently are they using it? And I would say that probably a quarter of them aren’t using it more than once a week. And that’s surprising to me. They still haven’t found that thing. And if I might offer a hypothesis about why, I think we are used to something like Google where

John Jantsch (03:55.847)

Yeah, yeah.

Keith Lauver (04:06.978)

You type in a search and a computer gives an answer. And AI’s potential is so much different than that. But most people are sitting down and thinking about this as a search tool and maybe a little bit smarter search tool. And they’re just not sure what’s beyond that even at the application layer.

John Jantsch (04:25.757)

So one of the things that, I don’t know, I, you you talked about bringing in this, large language model expert to talk about things and like that just goes nowhere with the business owners. So I’m going to bring up agents, which, know, maybe we have to kind of break down a little bit, but that’s one of the areas where people are like the future’s coming. You’re going to have, you know, agents replacing all of your people. We don’t actually have agents yet. Not really.

because there’s a lot of things that I think are going to happen, over, mean, I think we’re going to have some simple task bots. but, but, but the one that people throw out, tell your agent to book me the best ticket on this flight, you know, blah, blah, blah. Well, they’ve got to have access to all the data, all the airline things. And those people aren’t going to share that information. Or if they do some big tech company, it’ll be the one that does the interface and we’ll just be a product of theirs like Facebook.

Keith Lauver (05:20.994)

Okay.

John Jantsch (05:23.973)

and not, not a user. talk, I just went and rambled all over the place there, but talk a little bit about, you know, the, the, where we are now with agents, what agents are, guess, where we are now and really what is going to be a hurdle to this large scale adoption.

Keith Lauver (05:41.516)

Yeah. So as I understand and use agents, they basically are bots, you will, programs that can perform a discrete task and do so in repetition and kind of string those tasks, perhaps one to another, to another. And instead of like right now, if you sit down and chat GPT and say, Hey,

John Jantsch (05:49.203)

you

Keith Lauver (06:02.926)

you know, can you give me input about a story or can you review this website and tell me the pros and the cons of it or whatever the query might be, an agent can actually do something that’s much more complex and a series of steps. So it might be, can you build me an entire website? Right? And step one is this and step two is this and step three, I think where agents are today,

John Jantsch (06:18.621)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Keith Lauver (06:27.538)

is still very much in the experimental world. I love the fact that as a company that’s created a platform, we now can begin to move our entire architecture into what they’re calling agentic. So we’re able to take what we were finding other ways of doing and we can now do it better and easier because most of the things that we need to have done are complex and require more than one step and agents will help us do that.

John Jantsch (06:40.883)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (06:53.757)

Yeah, no, there’ll be a lot of stringing these things together too, right? You complete this task and then go give your output to this agent who then has been trained to do X, right? I mean, is that kind of another way to look at it?

Keith Lauver (06:57.55)

for sure.

Keith Lauver (07:02.487)

Yeah.

I love that vision, John, that really interoperability of agents. It’s like, why not have the thing that’s really good at X talk to the other thing that’s really good at Y and talk to the other thing that’s really good at Z. In the field of marketing, of the analog metaphor, if you will, would be the branding person who just is the wizard in the marketing world, right? They’re able to just say, this is the emotional state that we’re going to evoke for people.

John Jantsch (07:12.179)

Right.

John Jantsch (07:31.123)

Mm-hmm.

Keith Lauver (07:34.254)

pontificate on that. And then you’ve got the designer who tries to interpret that. And then you’ve got the copywriter who actually puts words to it. And then you’ve got the HTML person who has to construct it. And then maybe you’ve got somebody that needs to be the messaging architect that’s thinking about it. And then the performance person, we get all these different things. Wouldn’t it be great if those could all be strung together?

John Jantsch (07:56.731)

Yeah. And I think that’s a, maybe that’s a little bit of the dilemma of how people, when they’re thinking about embracing AI in general is that, you know, one, one vision I’ve seen is, the org chart that has maybe those, those analog managers, if you will, is that what we’re to call people now? Analog managers. but that, but then each of those people will have three agents that help them do their function.

Keith Lauver (08:14.83)

I hope so.

John Jantsch (08:24.371)

and they’ve all been maybe specifically trained on a thing, but then I’ve also seen people say, no, we’re going to have, we’re going to have the data analysis agent. That’s going to go across department. you know, how do you, how do you see the org chart of the future?

Keith Lauver (08:39.266)

You know, I think, the org chart of the future is probably going to be as diverse as organizations of the future. think models, what’s beautiful about what’s happening in this world is the models can be completely novel. can create things that have never before been seen. An example is, you know, we have been building our go-to-market plans using our software itself. We haven’t needed really a marketing department. even haven’t had to do.

John Jantsch (08:40.305)

Peace.

John Jantsch (08:56.466)

Yes.

Keith Lauver (09:08.352)

advertising in a traditional way. Most of our team is fully fractional and we can all cooperate and actually perform at a much higher level for a lot less money. And I don’t even know what an org chart is. We had a potential investor asked us to build one and I’m like, we haven’t, we don’t even have one for our company. It’s just not the way we operate. We kind of collect around tasks and bring expertise to those tasks and then perform those tasks.

So it’s just a very different organizational model that we’ve chosen. And I think there’s a lot of freedom in how people are going to build the company.

John Jantsch (09:43.827)

But see, I hear an org chart in there. It’s just way different than anything we’ve been taught. So I think it’s still, because an org chart to me is not people doing jobs. An org chart is what functions need to be done. And so I think that’s kind of what you’re describing, but we’re all just used to this is our head of that and this is our VP of that. And I think that that whole, that’s what’s interesting about it. think what’s going on is it’s not just like,

Keith Lauver (09:48.878)

Yeah, yeah.

Keith Lauver (09:57.516)

Ooh, I love that. Different, yeah.

John Jantsch (10:13.405)

How do we augment what we’re already doing? It’s how do we rethink everything, right?

Keith Lauver (10:18.772)

I love the freedom. think the moment, when we accidentally discovered this idea that turned into this platform for marketing, call Ella, when this was not an intentional discovery, it was pure accident. And in that moment, every single neuron in my brain fired every pattern from that 14 year old kid who wrote the software for that airport and Billings to the guy who’d been a student of marketing for the last decade fired and said, wait a minute.

I can do this differently now and I can ask this question in this way and get a completely different perspective than the old model was go to the expert. If we invert and put all the experts into a model, it shifts and everything changes. And I’m addicted to that innovation. So I think it’s wonderful.

John Jantsch (11:07.633)

Yeah. Yeah. So, one of the certainly themes that is prevalent is that this technology is going to replace a lot of people. mean, every technology does, right? I mean, or at least changes, you know, what those people do. Where do you fall on kind of the, it’s going to revolutionize industries, replace a lot of people, augment, you know, lot of the value we can bring. I mean, where do you fall on that?

Keith Lauver (11:20.814)

you

John Jantsch (11:37.867)

continue.

Keith Lauver (11:39.342)

So yes, yes, and yes. I do think that AI is going to transform, to augment, to replace. But I don’t think that changes our sense of self. I don’t think that changes our value of fact. If anything, for me, what it’s done is created more freedom around that. I talked to so many people on our team. We’re avid minute by minute users of AI.

John Jantsch (11:41.391)

Yeah, OK.

John Jantsch (11:50.034)

Yeah.

Keith Lauver (12:08.974)

We’re more confident in what we can do and in the gifts that we’ve been created to bring to the world because we augment the things that maybe we’re not as good at. I’m a visionary, I’m not an integrator. So I see big ideas and when you ask me to actually turn that into a you know, a set of sequential steps, I just, my brain hurts. I don’t like that work and I don’t have to do that work anymore. So.

John Jantsch (12:13.939)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (12:35.795)

Yeah. Peace.

Keith Lauver (12:36.246)

I think it’s not replacing people, but it’s replacing some of the things that we as people have done. And what that does is gives us the freedom to go back to what is our zone of genius? What is our superpower? What is it that we love to do? And I don’t think AI will ever replace humanity. I think it’s just bringing us up to be the very best versions of ourselves.

John Jantsch (12:41.317)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:57.395)

Well, it’s interesting because I certainly, I’ve always, you know, from a marketing standpoint, we’ve, our monitor has always been strategy before tactics. Um, and I think that in a lot of ways that makes the strategic thinker who can also master AI, who also understands marketing operations. That’s the job of the future, isn’t it? As opposed to the agency that comes in and does the stuff.

Keith Lauver (13:22.06)

I think that’s right. I would say our focus has actually been trying to go in and provide even greater effectiveness and efficiency for the strategists. And so because of that, I see a world where AI can actually do a lot of the strategy when well-guided and augmented by humans through that. I would say for me, as I’ve contemplated kind of my own work shift in the last, say, year, most of my time is now relational.

And that can’t ever be replaced by AI. Most of my time is getting to understand people and their problems and then finding a way to bring that in. But I’m not spending time on strategies so much as I am building relationships that allow my tools to build that strategy. So I think that’s a higher level.

John Jantsch (14:12.413)

Yeah.

Well, there’s such a, even though it’s more one-to-one, there is such a brand aspect to that. There is such a trust aspect to that. And I think that those are the things that are really going to allow the, if there’s going to be winners and losers, I think people that get that, think are going to side on the win.

Keith Lauver (14:23.063)

Ooh, I love that. Yeah.

Keith Lauver (14:33.326)

You know what I love about what you said there too is just kind of reminds me of the benefit to AI in getting us out of ourselves that if we’re going to be able to establish trust, one of the ways that I do this today that I did in 12 months ago is I talk about the fact that I run everything I do through a blind spot and a bias detector. I run everything I do through the lens of our software.

that can look at 100 different marketing people’s perspectives. And that actually increases my trustworthiness, my credibility with somebody because I’m actually admitting my own limitations.

John Jantsch (15:05.811)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (15:16.339)

Yeah, yeah, that’s one of my favorite prompts is like, what should I be asking you? Or what am I not asking you? You know, that kind of thing, you know, or, or I sometimes have to say, stop agreeing with me. That’s a brilliant idea.

Keith Lauver (15:24.43)

Yeah.

Yes. I like to think that my AI is sometimes a little bit too puppy-like. You know, it just wants to wag its tail and say, yes, Keith, I love you. Will you rub my belly? It’s like, yeah. Exactly. It’s like, no, no, no. Or even when I ask AI to be to go do something and the end result, if I say, is this biased? And she says, yes. I’m like, well, why did you do that in that way in the first place? So.

John Jantsch (15:54.021)

Right. So, so, I have one more question, but I really do want, we haven’t, I want to spend some time on what you’re doing specifically with Ella because it relates to everything we’re talking about. But, one of the things that, anybody who says the five things that are coming this year, you know, personalization in marketing is, certainly a buzzword that’s going to be on that list all the time. is, is, and it seems AI can help that.

But I also don’t see a lot of people doing it yet. And is the real missing ingredient is it can’t personalize without access to data.

Keith Lauver (16:33.304)

think that’s a great insight. think I would challenge how much data we can give it access to. would say in general, I’ll give you an example. I love what there’s a tool called Crystal Nose has done, which is they’ve used AI to go, you know, essentially determine somebody’s personality. And that gives you a degree of personalization to present information in a particular style. So for example, anytime I do a sales follow-up,

I run it first through Crystal and I have Ella rewrite it to that person’s disc profile. And that gives me a level of personalization that’s not just this was the conversation we had, but this is who you are and how you probably prefer to receive information. So I think we’re getting closer to it.

John Jantsch (17:17.169)

Yeah. Yeah. And it might just be bullet points and short sentences as opposed to, you know, necessarily, hi, John. Exactly. Right. Right. So talk a little bit about Ella. If somebody came to you and said, what’s Ella?

Keith Lauver (17:26.321)

Yes. Exactly. These are the three things we talked about. Sign here.

Keith Lauver (17:38.86)

Yeah, so we describe Ella as a high definition marketing machine. And the reason that we’ve chosen to describe her that way is we have found as professional marketers that most marketing has historically been very fuzzy. The fuzziness has been caused by specializations and fragmentation, right? The fuzziness has been caused by shifts in tactics and expectations. And the fuzziness is the fact that at the end of the day,

Most marketing is really a hypothesis that needs to be tested out there anyway. So it’s social science, it’s behavioral science. And so what we’ve said is let’s try to provide more pixels to the picture. Let’s take frameworks and connect them. Let’s take pictures and define them in greater resolution. Let’s interconnect them so that when somebody says, I want to talk to John about duct tape marketing,

John Jantsch (18:10.515)

Yeah.

Keith Lauver (18:34.37)

they’re able to do so with just a high degree of precision. So Ella is a tool that enables better messaging, more discrete personas, and essentially better results because of this high definition process.

John Jantsch (18:49.907)

Yeah, boy, will say, you you used a fate, one of my favorite words, frameworks. Um, you know, one of the best things you can do if you’re trying to get some sort of output out of, uh, out of an AI tool is, is to say, use this framework, uh, that’s well-defined. think at least it gives it some guardrails to say, okay, you know, I’m not just going to write something that hopefully sounds good. You’re going to write something that.

Keith Lauver (19:04.216)

Yes.

John Jantsch (19:14.875)

maybe is using a proven framework. And so it’s going to be more effective right off the bat, whether or not the outputs, know, word for word, what you’re going to use, at least the structure will be there.

Keith Lauver (19:18.093)

Yeah.

Keith Lauver (19:25.538)

Yeah, I think frameworks, you know, I got drawn into the idea of frameworks because I was a computer guy who fell into the field of marketing, right? I’m used to here is a subroutine. If you’re going to tell a story, here’s seven blanks to fill in. Donald Miller, thank you for giving me the seven blanks to fill in. Like I need that kind of thing. And what has been true about all the frameworks, at least that I’ve experienced is while fantastic, they’ve always been discreet.

John Jantsch (19:32.541)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (19:44.381)

Yes, exactly.

Keith Lauver (19:55.008)

and probably more unitaskers. So they’re fantastic for one thing, but they are often missing another thing. And what, least in my mind has been the missing link to all of this is a unifying, almost marketing operating system that pulls all those frameworks together. And that’s the big aspiration for what we’re trying to build.

John Jantsch (19:59.675)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (20:16.817)

Now, are you staying very focused on the niche market of, and I thought I read this, of SaaS go to market, or are really putting yourself out there as any type of business or industry?

Keith Lauver (20:27.21)

yeah.

Keith Lauver (20:31.756)

Yeah, we started in the field of SaaS. Obviously, we are too a SaaS product and understand those frameworks very well. But as Ella has so quickly grown, people are contributing their own frameworks. We’ve got authors who are saying, use mine. Or we’ve got practitioners who say, have you heard about this amazing system called duct tape? And I’m like, yes. Yes, I have. And so we’re trying to integrate those. And so

John Jantsch (20:36.147)

Sure.

John Jantsch (20:47.251)

Sure. Right.

John Jantsch (20:52.999)

Hehehehehe

Keith Lauver (20:58.988)

The idea of Ella is she can help with B2B, B2C, really across industries. And she’s getting smarter every single time somebody uses her and at least volunteers their feedback to Ella.

John Jantsch (21:13.619)

So one question that comes up a lot of times and will probably be continued to be debated forever, but are there privacy concerns? You know, I’m sharing all of my personal company data. that something or, or, you know, as an agency, I’m sharing my clients data. Is that an issue with a model like, or a tool like Ella?

Keith Lauver (21:36.64)

It is an issue for all AI and Ella has decided to respond to that with kind of a very clear privacy policy, a very clear non-disclosure agreement that we enter into, and also very clear technical parameters where we have opted out underlying our tool is OpenAI, but we have basically disallowed OpenAI from using any prompt

for training purposes, any prompt for storage purposes. And so we can say with confidence that we are protecting the confidentiality of that information. And I think it is important that we do that.

John Jantsch (22:15.461)

Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s going to be, you know, a raging debate for some time. And I think we’ll end up having, won’t we end up having the same thing that happened to the search engines, that, you know, the, the, all the privacy and all the stuff that they’re, they’ve been doing and not telling anybody. We’ll, we’ll come back to in lawsuits probably.

Keith Lauver (22:35.31)

I am excited to see how intellectual property will continue to evolve around all of this. But in the meantime, we’re going to let people do great work and keep what they’re doing private.

John Jantsch (22:38.291)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (22:47.155)

Well, Keith, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there someplace you’d send folks to learn more about Atomic Elevator and your work?

Keith Lauver (22:56.652)

You bet, AtomicElevator.com and we’ve got free trials available. We’d love to sign up anybody. Let them take Elifer spin for a couple of weeks and see what kind of impact you can make for their clients.

John Jantsch (23:08.627)

Again, appreciate you taking a moment and maybe I’ll run into you one of these days next time I’m up in Montana.

Keith Lauver (23:15.713)

I hope that would be the case.

How Businesses Can Thrive in Uncertain Times

How Businesses Can Thrive in Uncertain Times written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Bill Canady

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Bill Canady, seasoned business leader and author of From Panic to Profit. Bill has spent over 30 years driving business growth, leading industrial and consumer companies, and refining strategies that help businesses navigate uncertainty. He founded the 80-20 Institute to help organizations maximize efficiency, optimize operations, and scale profitably.

During our conversation, Bill shared invaluable insights on how businesses can not only survive but thrive during uncertain times. We explored the power of the 80/20 principle, the importance of business optimization, and why leaders must embrace change to maintain business efficiency and maximize profits.

Bill’s insights provide a practical roadmap for scaling a business while mitigating risks. By focusing on efficiency, strategic growth, and adaptability, businesses can turn uncertainty into opportunity.

Key Takeaways:

Embrace the 80/20 Rule – Focus on the 20% of customers, products, and efforts that drive 80% of your revenue growth. This business strategy ensures efficiency and profitability.
Optimize Before You Scale – Scaling without first improving operational efficiency can amplify inefficiencies. Businesses must earn the right to grow by eliminating waste and focusing on what works.
Adapt to Market Changes – Interest rates, supply chain disruptions, and economic shifts create uncertainty. Business leadership requires agility and a proactive growth mindset to stay ahead.
Invest in High-Value Customers – Instead of chasing every lead, customer focus should be on retaining and nurturing the most profitable relationships.
Leverage AI and Technology – Tools like AI-driven insights and automation can help businesses enhance business efficiency, cut costs, and improve decision-making.
Lead with Transparency and Strategy – Employees and stakeholders look to CEO tips and leadership for direction. A clear profit strategy backed by data fosters trust and alignment.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing Bill Canady
[01:01] What is Panic Mode for a Business?
[03:54] The Stockdale Paradox
[06:22] The 80/20 Principle
[10:59] Small Customers that Need Much Attention
[12:58] Earning the Right to Grow
[15:11] Where to Start When Fixing Panic Mode
[16:44] How Will AI Affect Business?

More About Bill Canady:

Check out Bill Canady’s Website
Connect with Bill Canady on LinkedIn
Read From Panic to Profit – Uncover Value, Boost Revenue, and Grow Your Business with the 80/20 Principle by Bill Canady’

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.962)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Bill Kennedy. He is a seasoned global business executive with 30 plus years of leadership in industrial and consumer markets as chairman of OTC Industrial Technologies and CEO of Arrowhead Engineering Products. He has driven significant revenue and profit growth.

He’s passionate about business strategy and founded the 80-20 Institute to help companies scale profitably. We’re going to talk about his latest book called From Panic to Profit. Uncover value, boost revenue, and grow your business with the 80-20 principles. So Bill, welcome to the show.

Bill Canady (00:44.578)

Hey, it’s great to be here, John, and you’re a fantastic hype guy, so I should hire you.

John Jantsch (00:48.238)

I’m just reading what you gave me. So, I like to sometimes start with words that are in the title of a book. So, what does panic mode generally look like for a business?

Bill Canady (00:52.526)

You did perfect.

Bill Canady (01:05.378)

Yeah, you know, that’s a really interesting question. And if you think of the scale from your house is on fire and your boat is sinking to, maybe you’re just not making enough money, right? But a lot of times it’s situational and companies are looking out and they cannot figure it out. And in today’s world, what that means is interest rates have gone up, can’t cover your debt, cash is not coming in the patient needs.

John Jantsch (01:30.274)

You know, probably wasn’t going to go here first, but I think I will now since we talked about, I’m talking to a lot of business owners that in 2025, even if business seems okay, are, are feeling a little panic of uncertainty. like change is happening faster than anyone can keep up with it. And of course, you know, we could unpack the whole political, scene, you know, that is causing a lot of disruption as well. So is, is, is.

Can Panic Mode actually be, I just don’t know?

Bill Canady (02:02.945)

I think for most of it, it really is that, you know, being a CEO or an owner or founder, you know, I’ve heard other people use this site. This is nothing original for you. It’s like staring in the abyss, but having someone throw rocks out of it that you can’t see them coming and chewing glass from time to time. So when you’re in this chair, no decisions that you get to make are the easy ones. All the fun stuff, like where we’re going to dinner and how big a bonus to give, someone else makes those, right?

John Jantsch (02:17.58)

Yeah.

Bill Canady (02:30.975)

It’s the, I’m not sure what to do next. That’s what arrives here. And today, maybe it’s always been this way. I don’t know, but it moves so fast, right? Whether it’s a tariff that’s in or out, whether it’s a interest rate that’s going up or down, you think you’re going left, you really, maybe you’re going right. Perhaps you’re not even sure. So it’s the lack of control that causes us staying awake.

John Jantsch (02:39.736)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (02:54.082)

You know, know a lot of business owners, leaders of organizations feel that part of their job is to exude the posture and the, you know, everything’s going to be just fine, you know, for the team. But when you’re in panic mode, how do you do that?

Bill Canady (03:08.587)

You know, it’s an interesting piece. So I kind of go the opposite. Not like I don’t know what I’m doing, but more about the unvarnished truth. This is where we are. It’s what we’re facing. However, we have a plan to deal with this. And our plan deals with understanding where we’re going, because our destination hasn’t changed. But you know, like use a sailing metaphor. Sometimes the wind blows from the left. Sometimes it’s from the right. We have to be able to deal with that.

And that’s really what the book is about. It’s a, do you actually get through it? What’s the simple, basic stuff that you need to do? And most of your money, most of all the good stuff comes from just a few pieces of that. So having a destination, being able to articulate, that’s what people want.

John Jantsch (03:54.232)

So this might be a good time to visit one of the principles in the book. You talk about the Stockdale paradox. I think that’s a little bit of what you described there. A lot of listeners may have encountered that. The first time I’ve heard that term was maybe in Jim Collins’ work. I don’t know if he created it, but you want to define that based on what we just talked about.

Bill Canady (04:17.195)

Yeah, absolutely. So your own point there. So Jim Collins was interviewing a gentleman by the name of Admiral James Stockdale, or Jim Stockdale, and he had been a prisoner of war. And Jim, and he was the highest ranking one, and he’d got a lot of men through it, where he did a fantastic job. And he asked him, so who didn’t make it? And Stockdale goes, well, that’s easy. It was the optimist, right? And what he meant by that was,

John Jantsch (04:44.622)

Yeah

Bill Canady (04:47.285)

You have to have a sense of unvarnished truths. This is what’s gonna be hard, but you have to believe you’re gonna get through it. And when you set false expectations or really unknown expectations, we’re gonna be here on Friday, we’re gonna be here by Easter, whatever it is, you don’t really know. So you’re better off to share that, but give people hope, the confidence that you are gonna get in through. And that was what the Sockdale Paradox was all about is it’s gonna be hard, but we’re gonna make it.

John Jantsch (05:17.554)

There is another end to that of course is the pessimist too, right? Who is just, never going to make, you know, it is kind like you just have to balance that optimist pessimist, right?

Bill Canady (05:25.709)

You do, you do. And some of us, you know, we like to think we’re realist and all that. you know, it’s funny, I see this in so much. You see it in today’s climate. It’s like when you’re a CEO, you need a goal you’re going for, whatever that goal is. So it’s a destination. You need a strategy to get it there. Your highest chance of success is having your team come in, buy into that strategy. Even if it’s just an okay strategy, it’s perfectly fine for it to be that way.

But if you’re all pulling on the same ore, rowing in the same direction, you’ll get there. You can have a fantastic strategy, a wonderful strategy. No one buys in, you’re not going anywhere. So this is where the negative person kind of falls apart a little bit. You’re trying to get everyone together, but you have this, and a lot of times they think they’re doing you a favor, like a voice of reason. That’s good early, because we need to challenge and pressure test and be little battle tested, if you will.

Some point you got to put all your hands in the middle and stack hands and go after it. If you can’t get that person on board, this is probably not the PlayStation B.

John Jantsch (06:28.526)

Yeah, well, again, going back to, I guess in this case, the subtitle of the book, you spent a lot of time talking about the 80-20 principle, the Pareto principle. You know, it almost sounds cliche because every business book, not every business, a lot of business books, a lot of business blogs, you know, people talk about that principle. But why do you think that it has become so universally accepted?

Bill Canady (06:54.379)

Honestly, I think it’s a couple of things. One, it’s really kind of a universal law, right? It turns out most of the good stuff comes from a very few pieces. And we use 80-20, the Alfredo Pareto figured that out, looking at pea pods and farming and all sorts of things. I use it because I tend to wear a blue shirt every day, even though my closet is full of red shirts and pink shirts, my wife has bought me. So we tend to do the same thing over and over and it tends to be where we get it. What happens is,

John Jantsch (06:58.69)

Yeah.

Bill Canady (07:23.805)

is that we get distracted by other things. Now the reason 80-20 is so attractive is it’s quantitative. It gives you the sense you can actually figure it out. It’s not just the black art. But as Eisenhower said, plans are useless. It’s the art of planning that’s critical here. Same thing with the data. You get that data. It is just factual. It just is, right? You can argue with it. You can say you’re different. It just is the data.

You have to decide what you’re gonna go do with it and you recognize everybody you’re involved with gets a vote too.

John Jantsch (07:58.222)

Yeah, and one of the pieces that you mentioned here, but I’m going to allow you to mention it more directly, is that if the agreement is, yes, 80 % of our profits or whatever come from 20 % of our customers or 20 % of our efforts, you kind of have to define what that 20, which 20%, right?

Bill Canady (08:18.807)

That’s right, because it won’t tell you what your strategy will be. It will tell you where you’re making money and even more importantly sometimes tell you where you’re losing money. It’s funny, you may think, well, I gotta go get more out of others. Sometimes if you just stop losing money, it turns out to be pretty powerful, right? So looking at that data and so there’s no surprise. So I always use an example. We talk about fair but not equal, right?

The example I use is people with their spouse and their sibling. You think about what you give to your spouse on their birthday versus what you might do on your sibling. My sister, I send her a text, right? And sometimes I’m late. My wife, do I take out to eat? I buy nice things. Why do I do that? Because my life is surrounded by my wife and my children and things. If I don’t take care of her, if I don’t look after her in a way that she’s got options, she can go somewhere else.

Same way with our customers. If you identify your best customers, the data will tell you that. And you know they’re your best because they buy a lot and they pay their bills. Go do more with them. They already value because they’re in. The one that you’re buying very low is buying very low. You’re probably their B vendor, right? They’re getting it from somewhere else. So identify with the data, then figure out how to take care of them in a way that they care.

John Jantsch (09:38.286)

Could you also bring that say to operations or even to how a CEO might use their time? You know, we all keep really busy because the clock says we’re supposed to be there from X to X. When in fact, know years of doing this myself that I would say 10, 15 % of my actual efforts deliver all the money. So maybe I had to just go fishing.

Bill Canady (10:03.029)

You know, there’s a lot of truth in that. see people who are, who are really amazingly efficient and do a lot of fishing too. I, I’m not that good, right? I, I, I, I think I’m still wasting a good portion of my time, but, but I, try, I try to get better at it. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s identifying those pieces surrounding yourself into it and, and, and getting after it is so hard though. And you know, when you start out, if you’re an entrepreneur, what’s the first thing you do, right? You’ll take any order. You just need to get started.

As time goes by, there’s only one of you, we’ll just make it a sole opener, and there’s only so many hours in a day. At some point you go, I’m maxed out, right? I don’t have anything left in the tank, I don’t have any time, I don’t have the resources. You have to start, you then have to start making decisions, right? You have to start those folks and you have to start saying no. And it’s important to say no to the right area. What typically gets our time is the squeaky wheel.

John Jantsch (10:40.59)

Mm-hmm.

Bill Canady (10:58.657)

And so if you have a small customer, they can wear you out, you’re doing all these things. You look at results at the end of the year, it was de minimis. That big customer, may not, they may be self-sufficient. They’re clearly happy because they’re a big customer. Go get more of that. Go spend that time around. Then you can go fishing all you want.

John Jantsch (11:16.398)

So you just revealed, I haven’t named this universal law yet, but one of my universal laws is that there’s this inverse relationship between how much somebody pays you and how much attention they need.

Bill Canady (11:29.459)

Absolutely. You know, there’s something about it, right? We all have the story, you know, of that tiny customer. So Motel 6, you remember that? We’ll leave the light on you, Tom Modep. So Motel 6, when I was in grad school, we did a study on it, or it was a case study that we read. And, you know, they ran that whole hotel with one person.

There was only ever one person, which by the way, if you ever stayed in it, you believed it. it was a wonderful hotel and all that, but they were so efficient. So we’re doing the case study and then they said, how do you think they did it and what they did? So if you came into a Motel 6, there was a counter there, a person behind it, that was the person running everything. Behind them was the laundry, right? They could just turn right around. It wasn’t a pretty wall, it was laundry machines.

John Jantsch (11:59.042)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:19.598)

Hmm.

Bill Canady (12:22.433)

This was back in the days when I was there, when he had VCRs and they would at eight o’clock, they’d put the VCR, the video in, right? And things like that. And so the biggest issue they had with their employees and they would fire them for this is an employee would get a call from a room, say room 10 and that person would be having a problem and whatever the problem is, right? The employee would leave and go check on it. Now, what would happen is during that time they’re going to solve this one issue,

They’d have 10 people come in, try it, no one’s at the front desk. Phone or ring? No one can answer the phone. So they had to put in hard and fast rules that you cannot get distracted by trivial things. And so it’s a really stark example of that, but they ran a whole hotel with one person. And I don’t remember now what was it they were charging, probably 30, 40 bucks, but they made money at it because they were efficient.

John Jantsch (12:54.947)

Yes.

John Jantsch (13:17.698)

So there’s a line in the book.

somewhere, but I wrote this down that you talk about businesses needing to earn the right to grow before they can scale. And I think that’s fairly nuanced. So I’d love it if you’d kind of unpack what you mean there.

Bill Canady (13:35.917)

It is.

Bill Canady (13:40.056)

So my favorite line with that is a baby does not make a bad marriage better, right? So what we mean by that is it’s interesting. You can be really good at getting customers, but if you can’t satisfy them, what you wind up with is a whole bunch of short-term unhappy people. When you come into an operation and you’re looking at it and there’s problems, it’s generally not just a sales problem. There’s operational problems.

John Jantsch (14:07.499)

Mm-hmm.

Bill Canady (14:07.533)

There’s inventory problems. There’s supplier problems. You need to correct a lot of those as you’re going so you can actually earn that right to go get the business because you know, a customer, don’t care what our problems are. They just want what they want, just like anyone else and as they should, right? So if you can’t ship on time, if you’re a problem, if you have quality defects, before you go get more people to see how bad you do, perhaps you want to go back in your factory and clean it up a little bit.

and do some tech time studies and look at your sourcing and on and on because there’s very few of us that have products you can’t get anywhere else, right? Most of us have something that’s easily attainable, no matter what our differences are. Make sure you start with getting the machine running well, get the engine in the car capable of getting where you need to be while you’re out getting those customers. It’ll make a big difference for

John Jantsch (14:57.954)

Yeah, that, I’m not sure where I heard this, it reminds me of the line, we’re losing money on every sale, but we’re making it up on volume, right?

Bill Canady (15:05.645)

in volume. That was the old spark plug things. We’re going to sell spark plugs for $1. We buy them for $2, but we’re going to make it up in volume. We used to say that on it. I started out as a sales guy. I love them, but I always felt like it gave me a license to make fun of them. There was never, just, man, if operations can make this thing and I can only sell it for $1, that two bucks needs to be their problem. When you own the business or you’re running the business, you have to look at the whole P &L.

John Jantsch (15:12.43)

you

Okay, yeah.

John Jantsch (15:20.97)

Hehehehe

Bill Canady (15:34.015)

and you got to figure it all out. Just because you can get it out on time doesn’t mean you make that money at it, right? It takes a lot of effort.

John Jantsch (15:38.254)

Yeah. So if I was a business owner, I had a variety of issues that I’d identified that had me in panic mode. And I said, Bill, come on down and take a look at our company, fix us. Where do you generally start?

Bill Canady (15:54.902)

You know, it’s the most amazing thing. So I get everyone together. I get them in a conference room. And the first thing I ask them is, what is our goal? What does good look like? And not some, we’re going to be better human beings and treat people with dignity. That’s all important too. But where are we going? What’s the destination? I have yet to have the same answer out of two people. You go around that table and operations will say something operations like, we got to be on time.

John Jantsch (16:17.902)

Hmm.

Bill Canady (16:23.467)

The majority of times, the goal is set by whoever owns it. In private equity, typically they want to get at least three times whatever dollar of equity they put in, it’s called Moit, multiple loan invested cash. A private company is whatever the values of the owners are. Sometimes it’s parochial, take care of my employees in my town. Almost always it’s the dividend as well. That’s how they take care of their family and themselves, what they live off of. That’s really very important. In a public company,

John Jantsch (16:47.438)

Yeah.

Bill Canady (16:50.303)

It can be all sorts of things. That’s why it’s so hard to run a public company. At the beginning of a quarter, it’s one thing. At the end, you need that penny to make your earnings per share. Start with that. If you start with what the value is, what that goal is, your job as a CEO is then to figure out, make that goal, and you and your team figure out the strategy of how to get there. Most people never do that.

John Jantsch (17:16.716)

believe that we’re going through, you I’ve been doing this 30 years. know you said you’d been doing this, this work for 30 years. So we’ve seen some, the world is ending moments and know, ups and downs and cycles and whatnot. I feel like, and here, this is maybe a record. I’m 17 minutes into the show. I’m just now mentioning AI, but I think, I feel like what’s going on with AI and how that’s going to change business is really,

We’ll get through it. There’ll be new industries, there’ll be new jobs, but I feel like we’re in a time where people have to decide, do I go this way or that way with my business? Standing still is not an option. How do you feel like that’s going to shake out? This is just a guess, but what’s your view on how that’s going to shake out the next two, three years maybe?

Bill Canady (18:05.293)

I remember in the 80s, late 80s, I didn’t have a cell phone and never heard of computer. And then I get a cell phone and my first cell phone was analog, right? And they were coming out with digital. I’m like, I don’t know if I want to switch, right? Same thing with computers, right? If you’re old like I am, you’ve gone through all this. AI is not only coming, it’s here, right? It is absolutely going to have an effect on us and already in our businesses.

John Jantsch (18:26.488)

Yeah, yeah, right.

Bill Canady (18:32.173)

it is making an impact. Not in maybe some of the really meaningful ways, but I think I saw the other day on, you know, we’ve got a terrible war going on around the world. I think I saw where they’re trying to fight the war with robots. Now, I don’t know if you saw that in there. So, I mean, look, we are definitely in the future now. AI, just like we thought computers would get rid of everyone and cell phones all of a sudden would kill all these. It changes things, but it means we can do more. And you, as a person,

If you want to do it, maybe you got to get new skills. Sometimes that’s the case with it, but you can continue to grow and go on and on and on. So whether you embrace it or not, doesn’t matter. It’s happening. It’s happening around us every day. Everybody I know now either has, if you’ve got Microsoft co-pilots in it, this is a very simple example. If you’re my daughter, means I’m paying for her subscription to chat GPT, right? So everyone’s got it and they’re using it to just even write simple documents now, right? We’re doing faster in our…

John Jantsch (19:23.214)

you

Bill Canady (19:30.005)

our turnaround time is, it will allow more throughput for us. It will cost us some jobs for sure, but we’ll also create a whole new industry we haven’t even thought about. So embrace it, whatever level you’re comfortable with. This rocket’s leaving the platform here.

John Jantsch (19:41.699)

Yes.

John Jantsch (19:45.836)

Yeah. Yeah. No, I’ve, I’ve said that at least for the last couple of years that, the only risky move right now is to just try to stay put and hope it goes away. Sure. That’s right.

Bill Canady (19:55.501)

It’s never worked even without AI, you know, there was not going anywhere as making the decision. You’re basically punching out. So you’re going to go backwards or forwards. My thought is go with it. The other thing I would add to it is, you know, for most of us, I mean, there’s some big fancy companies out there that do all this. Most of us are at best fast followers, right? I’m just really starting to embrace it and use it. I sat on a university board. We have students from all over the world.

John Jantsch (20:18.318)

Mm-hmm.

Bill Canady (20:25.357)

Now when you call our number, they actually interact with AI because they can do over a hundred different languages, right? And can you imagine having a hundred different people available at any time and they’ll send it all out? You still need people, but it’s really enabling a lot of different growth opportunities.

John Jantsch (20:32.078)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (20:37.368)

Alright. Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:43.512)

Well, I was going to say opportunity is really the word because a lot of people fear change, but change always brings opportunity. And that’s really where I think we are.

Bill Canady (20:52.747)

Gotta be agile, gotta be flagged. It hurts though, right? I mean, Jesus, what else? I had someone like today, I don’t know if you experienced this, but you can get ahold of me on a cell phone, text, email, Teams. I’ve got a new thing they call Notion they’re sending me things on. So I’ve got all this stuff and I’m like, can’t they just like, know, can’t they just pick one? Well, they’re never gonna pick one. That problem’s a build problem, not anyone else. I’m the one that has to change.

John Jantsch (20:55.894)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:18.498)

Yeah, absolutely. Well, Bill, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. there anywhere you’d like to invite people to connect with you and find out more about from panic to profit?

Bill Canady (21:29.441)

Yeah, so first I can just go right to my website. It’s my name, BillCanady.com. You can see it right here on the screen. I encourage everyone to come there. You can look at the book, look at my other stuff. Happy to help in any way possible.

John Jantsch (21:40.78)

Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Bill Canady (21:45.943)

Sounds good, John. Thank you so much for having me. This was fantastic.

John Jantsch (21:49.016)

Awesome.

How to Outrank Big Competitors in Search

How to Outrank Big Competitors in Search written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Sam Dunning

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Sam Dunning, founder of Breaking B2B, an SEO firm specializing in SEO for revenue—not vanity metrics. Sam shares his insights on how small businesses can compete with industry giants in Google rankings by focusing on B2B SEO strategies that drive organic traffic and real conversions.

We discuss the dangers of falling into the “traffic trap”, where businesses chase high-volume keywords that don’t convert, and instead explore long-tail SEO tactics, strategic keyword research, and the role of AI in SEO. Sam also shares practical techniques for competitor SEO analysis, leveraging on-page and off-page SEO, and adapting to Google search updates to maintain visibility.

If you’re tired of seeing competitors outrank you in search, this episode is packed with actionable strategies to help your business dominate Google rankings and drive revenue.

Key Takeaways:

Avoid the Traffic Trap: Prioritize keywords that drive inbound leads over vanity metrics. Focus on search engine optimization that brings paying customers, not just clicks.
Use Long-Tail SEO to Compete: Instead of targeting high-competition terms, optimize for landing pages SEO with niche-specific keywords that align with customer intent.
Maximize EEAT for Authority: Build trust and credibility through technical SEO, backlinks, and authoritative content that aligns with Google’s EEAT framework.
Adapt to AI and Google Search Changes: Stay ahead of Google AI overviews and algorithm updates by creating high-value, user-focused content.
Leverage Local SEO & Competitive Analysis: For service businesses, local SEO is critical. Optimize Google Business Profile, target location-based keywords, and analyze competitors’ weaknesses to rank higher.
Invest in SEO Strategy, Not Shortcuts: SEO is a long-term game. Avoid SEO mistakes like low-quality backlinks and keyword stuffing. Instead, build a sustainable SEO content strategy that drives consistent business growth.

Chapters:

[00:09] Introducing Sam Dunning
[00:31] Approach to SEO Strategy
[03:42] SEO Isn’t for Every Business
[06:21] SEO is a Long-term Game
[08:53] Your Marketing Niche
[13:00] Google Search vs AI Search
[15:24] SEO and Local Search
[18:46] Where to Start with SEO

More About Sam Dunning:

Check out Sam Dunning’s Website
Connect with Sam Dunning on LinkedIn

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.98)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Sam Dunning. He is the founder at Breaking B2B, an SEO firm and the host of podcast by the same name, Breaking B2B. So Sam, welcome to the show.

Sam Dunning (00:20.738)

Hey John, thanks for having me on man. Looking forward to the chat.

John Jantsch (00:23.822)

So I know that one of your promises, taglines, messages, whatever we want to call it, SEO for revenue, not vanity. So let’s start there. How do you define that distinction and how do you use that to sort of differentiate yourself from other SEO firms?

Sam Dunning (00:42.742)

Yeah, great place to start. So in short, it’s after going through the pain myself. It’s so before I got into SEO as a profession or ran my own consultancy or agency, kind of working with past agencies, teams, contractors, and also potential clients, prospects, and customers that come to us. So much of the time get frustrated as they’ve either tried to do SEO themselves.

hired contractors, hired teams or whoever it may be, but have focused on the wrong metrics or wrong outcomes. So they’ve fallen into what I call John the traffic trap, which is even more important in the world of AI as AI search, LLMs take over slowly beat at Google’s market share. They’ve fallen into something called the traffic trap. What does the traffic trap means? Well, it means they go for informational based keywords on Google search.

John Jantsch (01:38.48)

businesses.

Sam Dunning (01:39.734)

So think of things like simple searches, like what is a KPI, how to build a website, what is a CRM, stuff that’s easily answerable nowadays with things like AI overviews in Google, which show up as really high juicy traffic terms, but are not likely to result in conversions, AKA inbound leads, demo requests, booked calls, or whatever that main call to action your B2B company wants.

John Jantsch (01:50.49)

Yep.

Sam Dunning (02:07.092)

So they fall into that trap thinking we need to get traffic at all costs, but it’s not going to result in, or it’s very unlikely to result in a book called demo or conversion. Now I thought, well, that’s a waste of time, especially running, running a business myself. And I’m sure you’re the same John, like most marketing that we put, whether it’s our own resource or agencies or contractors want to result in actual kind of qualified leads or revenue. So we flipped that on its head. thought, how can we do the opposite of that?

and focus on what is a dream client actually searching for when they need our offer, when they have this very specific problem we solve or they’re comparing alternatives and how can we show up and start driving qualified inbound traffic for those terms.

John Jantsch (02:50.0)

Yeah, and I think one of the things, know, there are a lot of people that have enjoyed what looked like a lot of good organic traffic that are kind of freaking out because all of those information searches are going away or Google’s like hoarding them, right? And so a lot of people have seen real drops in traffic and they’re freaking out, right? But what you’re saying is that was garbage traffic anyway, wasn’t

Sam Dunning (03:03.566)

Mm.

Sam Dunning (03:10.978)

Yeah, now, now don’t get me wrong, top of funnel or informational based SEO isn’t completely dead. But if you’re doing a very light version of it, stuff that can be simply answered by an AI or LLM, then that probably is a waste of your time. And those prospects that are searching for that kind of stuff, like very simple what is or very simple how to terms are probably just going to land on your page, get the info and bounce off.

John Jantsch (03:35.93)

Yeah, yeah, I do. I do it dozens of times a day myself, right? You because I just want to figure out like, how do I make that thing work in this tool that I’m using? And I know I could find somebody who’s written about it, but I can’t even tell you what their website was or what it was about. So SEO really, with a lot of small business clients, is so misunderstood that it gets a really bad rap, you know, because a lot of people hire SEO people, they don’t know what they’re doing.

Sam Dunning (03:51.522)

Yeah, yeah, that’s it.

John Jantsch (04:04.804)

they’re getting some reports once a month that seem to say they’re ranking for something and ultimately they get really frustrated. And, so, you know, what is it that you think, the, the, the, true, like value-based, let’s put it that way. Cause there are a lot of scammers out there. The true sort of value-based SEO firm is, is going to be telling their clients today. that is kind of different.

different than smoke and mirrors that I think a lot of SEO folks have used to describe what they’re doing.

Sam Dunning (04:37.238)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I’d say one of the first things is that SEO is not for every business. And what do I mean by that? Well, I mean, first and foremost, you have to be in a sector that actually has demand to capture. So you have to be in a known category and have folks, AKA your dream clients or prospects actively searching for your offer. Because if you’re trying to create some kind of new tool, new service, new offer, Google is, SEO is always best as a demand capture channel.

John Jantsch (04:43.216)

Hmm.

Sam Dunning (05:05.036)

So you need prospects in market searching for your offer. That’s the first thing. The second thing is you actually have to have resource to make it worthwhile. Whether that is your own cash, like you mentioned, they’re hiring a contractor agency, whoever it may be, that you can invest to actually give it a good amount of time to see success, or you need the resource in-house. Marketers that actually know what makes a solid SEO campaign.

know how to actually build a revenue driving SEO program, whether that is creating, doing solid keyword research around what your dream clients search or when they need the offer, building content that matches that intent that resonates with dream clients and is also following SEO best practices than the other elements of SEO, be it link building, technical SEO, et cetera. And you have to have the longevity to make it worthwhile. And you can, don’t get me wrong, you can see results with SEO done right as quick as 90 days, but

John Jantsch (05:56.613)

Yes.

Sam Dunning (06:03.762)

If you’re looking at it as a quick hit and you’re thinking, yeah, I’ll do this for a month. Then I might switch and do paid ads. Then I might do some social ads. Then I might try some outbound sales. Then I might do some review sites. Then it is a waste of your time. Do another channel that you can give a chance or stick to paid media.

John Jantsch (06:20.398)

Yeah. So what do you tell a client when, mean, because you, just told me something a lot of clients don’t want to hear, right? It’s like, no, I, you know, I, see my top three competitors are, know, on top of Google. How come I’m not? so, you know, how do you kind of set the expectation for that fact that it’s a long-term game? Because let’s face it, there have been SEO folks that I sound like I’m really negative SEO, but I’ve just seen too many small businesses get kind of burned by just not understanding it. And so not knowing what they’re even buying,

Sam Dunning (06:46.53)

Yeah, I get it.

John Jantsch (06:49.902)

So because a lot of SEO firms hide behind that, it’s a long-term game, it’s a long-term game, which just means you’re never gonna get results.

Sam Dunning (06:57.516)

Yeah, it’s that classic response, right? Like the client says, or the potential customer says, how long does SEO take agency says, six to 12 months, sign our 12 month retainer and we’ll be good. So what you said is correct in the sense that let’s face it. Most of us, whether we’re a B2B service company, tech company, software company, we have giant competitors, right? We’ve got the top three, the top four, the top five that always come up in sales conversations to an annoying level.

John Jantsch (07:06.298)

Right.

Sam Dunning (07:25.57)

And they’re probably, if we’ve not done SEO ranking above us for some of those core terms that we want to start driving leads for. Now, usually for those juicy terms, there’s quite often competitors owning those. So let me give you a tangible example. If let’s pretend we sold proposal software as a tool. We might want to own terms like best proposal software or best proposal tools, et cetera.

But those are gonna be extremely competitive. You’ve got massive software companies like Proposify, Quilla, PandaDoc, well-funded companies that have a ton of cash to spend on marketing and SEO. Now, how can we beat these companies? Because we’re probably not gonna get ranked for that keyword for years, realistically. Well, that’s when you need to do something called long tail SEO. And you need to, instead of thinking like we’re gonna rank for best proposal software in this instance, we might go for things like, we might pick niches that…

that are maybe underserved or that we’ve historically sold well into. So you might think, all right, short term, like the next three months or so, we’re gonna go for like proposal software for FinTech teams or for sales teams or for HR teams, or we’re gonna target competitors. Like we’re gonna go for Proposify alternatives or GetAccept alternatives, all that kind of stuff. there’s always quick wins you can grab with SEO, but it’s naturally knowing first and foremost, what niches you wanna target.

John Jantsch (08:28.464)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:43.14)

you

Sam Dunning (08:44.972)

what your prospects might be searching for and realizing that those really super competitive terms are going to be owned by the giants and that we have to chip away at the stuff they’re under serving.

John Jantsch (08:53.936)

Yeah. And I love that idea. You know, I have people come to me all the time and they’re starting a business and they’re like, should I choose a niche? And I’m like, well, my take is, mean, if you have a real reason, like you’re an expert in that and you’ve worked in it all your life. Otherwise, I think what happens is a lot of people choose niches they think are good. And, but, you know, then they’re like six months later having to start their business over again. but I’m always telling people you don’t have to choose a niche, but you should niche your marketing.

Sam Dunning (09:15.48)

Mm.

John Jantsch (09:21.412)

And that’s really what you’re talking about is that, you have campaigns that are like, say professional services is a category for you. Well, there’s 10 subcategories in there and you should be messaging to those 10 subcategories. And I’m hearing you say that that’s a, that’s a solid foundation for approaching SEO today.

Sam Dunning (09:42.122)

Exactly right exactly right. So I always say Like going back to marketing fundamentals like SEO Let’s ignore SEO for a second the main marketing fundamentals are have an offer But have an offer that serves a dream client that ideally has historically bought well into your service is in a niche that can easily Ford your offer Has the expensive problem you solve is motivated to solve it and has no issue spending cash on it

If you can get those lined up, that’s good, not just for SEO, but for marketing in general. So I have a very simple, I’m a simple guy. A lot of my strategies are straightforward when it comes to actually building out your SEO, like what keywords should we target? What type of content should we create? I recommend folks, whether it’s a founder, whether it’s your marketing leader, whoever in your organization makes sense. The very simple strategy for finding what I call money keywords, which in simple terms of commercial keywords that your dream clients will search for needing your offer.

Fire up a Google Sheet, fire up an Excel Sheet, split it into four main columns. Column one is what you actually call your offer. Going back to proposal software, that might be proposal software, proposal tools, proposal platform. Column two, what are those money niches that you’ve historically sold well that can have the problem you solve and motivate to solve it and can easily afford the offer? Could be, like you said, financial firms, accountancies, whatever those niches are. The third is what are those main competitors that always come up in sales calls? That’s column three. And the fourth is…

This is probably a framework you’ve talked about on the podcast. I’m sure jobs to be done. What are your dream clients jobs to be done? What are those struggling moments they face? Maybe they try to do something internally, like they cobbled together a solution on Google sheets or Excel, or maybe in the sales proposal world, like it would be like something like how to build a sales proposal within Google docs or how to, how to build out sales proposals that convert all that kind of stuff. Why do I build those four columns? Well,

John Jantsch (11:14.544)

Mm-hmm, true.

Sam Dunning (11:37.486)

It helps me build out long tail keywords that my dream clients were actually going to search for needing the offer. And if I get, if I’m, if I have a team, then I might involve my sales team. So they can actually come with me to say, look, these are competitors that come up. These are the niches that are doing well right now. Um, these are the common frustrations or our clients jobs to be done or struggling moments. And then we can have well-informed keyword research. That’s also going to fuel our content when we get to that stage.

that our target prospects are probably actually looking for when they need our offer.

John Jantsch (12:10.248)

So one of the things that if we could do a quick search and find 10 blog posts on people saying SEO is dying and AI is going to eat all SEO organic traffic. one of the things I’m hearing you say is, or at least that I’m seeing is, if you’re really focused on high demand, AI is not really returning results for somebody who is looking to hire

an accountant in their community right now, right? mean, if somebody who’s really doing that level of search, they’re not getting an AI overview for that, are they?

Sam Dunning (12:46.766)

Not so much not to say there aren’t it’s like right now from what we’re saying a lot of the AI Overviews and more for informational based searches Not always but quite a lot of time now. There’s there’s obviously two sides to the coin with your typical Google result now There’s sometimes an AI overview at the top Then you’ve got some a couple sponsored listings. Then you’ve got the organic results in between but that aside You’ve also got LLMs like chat GPT search perplexity, etc

John Jantsch (12:49.956)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Dunning (13:16.416)

Now, a lot of folks are saying stuff like, when I say a lot of folks, mean, random marketers on LinkedIn, et cetera, they like to make a lot of noise and saying stuff like Google search is dying and all this kind of stuff. the truth is that LLMs, whether that is chat, chat, GPT, perplexity, et cetera, are gaining chat. GPT is especially are gaining a bit more market share, but it’s nothing in comparison to Google. Google’s still growing and it still is by far the most searched engine. when it comes to those prospects.

John Jantsch (13:26.405)

Yes.

John Jantsch (13:44.752)

So what do we, just to put a number on that, 2, 3 % for the LLM?

Sam Dunning (13:50.67)

I can’t, I can’t remember what it’s last valued at, but Brian Fishkin has just done a report. So one of the, one of the well-known SEOs he’s just put out a report to show that I mean, Google is literally kind of a hundred X or so more compared to some of these LLMs. So what I’m saying is the thing to consider is if you have a more technical user, so if your end clients are more technical, they’re probably using more AI search. If not, they’re more of a layman.

They’re probably still using Google for now, but it’s more to be aware that AI is on the rise. We can certainly dive into some ways that you can rank on LLMs and chat to you between similar happy to dive into that. But I think that’s one thing to bear in mind. Most folks are still using Google when they have intent to review offers.

John Jantsch (14:36.848)

Yeah. Sometimes we forget about, you know, what our target market does. Like, do they read the newspaper? Do they, you know, it’s like, that’s what we need to pay attention to. Right. So, so, uh, instead of ranking on the LLMs, I’d let’s for a minute go into local search. Um, so a lot of, let’s say I’m a local home remodeler. Um, I mean, in, in this day and age search has really been, I mean, we can run ads and do things, but search has been a big driver of business, uh, for me, especially if I can get myself in that three pack.

Sam Dunning (14:50.211)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (15:05.776)

So how is local search going to be impacted?

Sam Dunning (15:10.614)

Yeah. I mean, to be blunt, I don’t do tons with local businesses. most exactly, exactly. So a lot of my clients are kind of more national, not necessarily serving, serving small end industries. Now, yeah, some of that, again, some of that, certain searches will, will be appearing in whether it’s Google AI overviews. So you get the quick review, and that sort of things. And I think more of it is understanding the crux of SEO in my opinion, at least.

John Jantsch (15:14.67)

Yeah, because B2B is more national, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sam Dunning (15:40.814)

is yes, you follow simple guidelines with technical. So for example, if you were, say, I don’t know, providing HVAC in a certain state of the U S so let’s say in New Jersey, those kinds of HVAC services in New Jersey, for example, if we actually want to typically what’s going to rank for that is probably a landing page. And the usual framework I like to follow for a landing page is problem. Are you facing this problem with whatever’s going on in your home? This is the impact of that problem.

We’ll agitate a bit and then this is the solution. This is how we’re well equipped to solve these issues, these bleedneck frustrations. And then you’ll probably show some examples of your offer. You’ll have some client testimonials and reviews might have an FAQ like what’s your pricing? How long does it take? What’s your refund policy? And you have a call to action to book a call. The crux of SEO is reviewing what’s ranking right now. In this case for our target search term, this offer in this location.

And how can I completely blow that page out of the water? How can I make my page more helpful, more useful, more educational, trustworthy and convincing to this dream client? And a lot of that comes down to customer research, like knowing what your prospects actually care about their jobs to be done in their end goals. Yes, you need basic technical SEO. So you need your focus keyword in the URL. You need it in the H1 in the MetaTitle description. And you might want some internal links on that page to other blog articles or other useful pages. But if you can follow that framework.

With local SEO, in most cases, you can actually outrank competitors without even worrying about backlinks. Cause a lot of these local websites, they’re not really doing a lot of SEO. They might have like a couple pages, like homepage, couple service pages, portfolio contact. If you can actually strategically build out what I call these money pages for like offer plus industry, offer plus location, and do that in a systematic way that’s custom research backed, then you can, you can probably start ranking quite nicely and pulling in some leads.

John Jantsch (17:14.412)

Yeah. Right.

John Jantsch (17:36.034)

You said one of my favorite words that you Brits say, HVAC. I love that term.

It’s a little different than the way us Americans pronounce it.

Sam Dunning (17:50.23)

It’s also niche isn’t it when Brits say niche and US says niche. I always get those two mixed up.

John Jantsch (17:51.788)

Yeah. Well, I have learned niche too. I rather prefer niche. So that’s one. I have a lot of Canadians that are clients and a couple of their words of process is one that as opposed to process that I love to harass them about. you went into a business, they said, Hey, Sam,

Sam Dunning (17:59.071)

Okay.

John Jantsch (18:16.506)

Come help us. We’re not ranking for anything. You know, they’ve got a decent business. They’ve got a decent product or offer. I mean, that’s not really the issue. Where do you start? I mean, what do you, how do you kind of start the process? And let’s say they’ve bought into, it’s going to be a six month process. Do you have a set? You know, here’s what we do first. Here’s what we do next. Here’s how we expand that.

Sam Dunning (18:37.678)

Yeah, yeah, so you start with what we briefly touched on earlier. So understanding the main offer, problems they solve, competitors, industries that they serve well, that have that expensive problem and motivated to fix it and have cash to easily invest in the offer. So you build out that Google sheet, formulating those offers, industries, jobs to be done and competitors, make those four main columns. And then from there,

John Jantsch (18:42.82)

Yep.

Sam Dunning (19:05.026)

We’re making our money long tail commercial keywords. So what service do you want to make at us, Or what offer?

John Jantsch (19:12.99)

you know, let’s do mine, marketing strategy.

Sam Dunning (19:16.182)

Okay, it’s quite a nice broad one. And do we want to serve like specific niches? Are we gonna?

John Jantsch (19:18.442)

Yeah, let’s go with home service businesses where we’re going to serve like remodeling contractors, roofers, landscapers.

Sam Dunning (19:26.23)

Yep, lovely, lovely. Yeah, yeah, so we could, if we wanted to drill down on those niches, some of our offerings might be, some of our money keywords might be like marketing services for landscaping or best marketing agency for landscapers and hitting some of those home niches. And then once we’ve kind of worked out, once we’ve exhausted what I call these long tail keywords, and then if we go to kind of…

That would be kind of some of the high commercial intent keywords. If we, if we went more jobs to be done, it might be how to rank higher as my home services business or why is my business not showing up on Google? Why is my landscape business not driving leads or why is my landscaping website not converting? Those might be some of the struggling moment searches.

John Jantsch (20:11.442)

So those were all questions, by the way, right?

Sam Dunning (20:15.116)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those are things that probably come up on discovery calls. That’s how you pull those. So make an exhaustive list of that. Like I said, if you’re the founder, you’ll know a lot of these, but if you perhaps have a sales team, they can help you contribute to that. Then simplest way to actually build content that ranks is to just Google those keywords. So let’s say marketing agency for landscapers or best marketing agency for landscape or something like that. Google the keywords, see what the top three organic pages are.

John Jantsch (20:15.952)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (20:28.4)

Sure,

Sam Dunning (20:44.652)

what type of page they are. This is called addressing, assessing the intent. Is it a landing page, a blog article, a how-to, a product list, a comparison, whatever. Probably gonna be, I’d imagine a landing page for that type of keyword. It might be a top 10 comparison, like we reviewed the top marketing agencies in 2025 for landscapers. Probably one of the two. See what shows more in the organic search results. Let’s pretend it’s a landing page. I’d review the top.

John Jantsch (21:03.12)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Dunning (21:12.396)

three landing pages. So what’s ranking now of my competitors. I look for gaps in those pages. Usually landing pages are quite thin. This is our offer. There’s some testimonials. Here’s a to action. So I would do what we talked about earlier, problem agitation solution based on our knowledge of the industry or ourselves team’s knowledge. So start with the hero area, the top banner. This is the offer. Here’s a call to action. Here’s a book of cool calls to action. Are you facing these problems?

around your landscaping company, like struggling to drive leads for your website, competitors above you in organic search results or spending loads of cash on ads and not returning pipeline. Here’s exactly how we fix it. Here’s three video testimonials of customers we sold it for. Here’s our exact process from A to Z. Here’s some FAQs around our offer. Why are we more expensive than other marketing agencies? Do we have a proven process? Do we have a returns policy?

How quickly can I see results? All those FAQs from those kind of really tight objections you get on sales calls. And then yeah, follow the technical SEO basics. So the focus URL has the keywords. So yourdomain.com forward slash best landscaping marketing agency. Same for the H1, same for the meta title and description. So that’s what I call the blow out the water strategy, review what’s ranking, make your page more helpful, useful, educational, trustworthy.

John Jantsch (22:10.03)

Mm-hmm.

Sam Dunning (22:34.84)

Google rolled out a framework called EEAT, Experience Expertise Authority Trust a while back. And for more, I guess, for less competitive terms, that alone, doing that at scale in a systematic way, like saying, look, we’re gonna publish, we’re gonna build out and publish five to 10 pages each month, whatever’s realistic for your company, we’ll steadily get your rankings. When you get to more competitive terms, I don’t know, in the marketing agency world, like things like best marketing agency in the US or whatever it might be,

John Jantsch (22:37.626)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (22:52.624)

Yeah. Right.

Sam Dunning (23:03.886)

you’re gonna have tons of competitors. That’s when you’ll need the help of backlinks to build up your website’s authority. And there’s a bunch of ways to build links, happy to dive into, but that’s just a starting point that I’d recommend.

John Jantsch (23:07.918)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (23:17.348)

My favorite is guesting on podcasts, quite frankly, because we’re going to link back to your site, Sam, and we’re going to promote the heck out of this episode. so that to me is one of the best backlinks that you can get is going on people shows. Plus you get the exposure, you know, you might actually get a client because somebody listens to it. So that’s my favorite. Yeah. Yeah.

Sam Dunning (23:36.79)

Yeah, it’s great. It is one of the best. I’d probably put that as number one or number two for sure. My other favorite is building partnerships, which again has more holistic business play. So this is finding partners that serve the same ICP, the same idle client profile as you, but are not direct competitors. So as a real example, I partner with a LinkedIn ads agency, Impactable. They serve just like me, B2B service and B2B SaaS clients, but they’re not going after SEO clients because they don’t offer it. So.

John Jantsch (23:44.911)

Right.

Sam Dunning (24:05.518)

I approached their founder guy called Justin a while back and I’m a big fan, John of weird, painfully short messages if I’m trying to get stuff done. So I probably sent you one. I find the founder or the marketing leader on LinkedIn. I’ll say something like, Hey Justin had a weird idea to scale your organic traffic and in bounds you against a conversation. He’ll probably connect with me on LinkedIn or whatever channel I outreach email, whatever, and say, Sam, what are you on about? But let’s hear what you’ve got to say. Then I’ll shoot him like a loom video.

John Jantsch (24:30.084)

Yeah.

Sam Dunning (24:33.006)

and just say, look, I’ve got an idea. In this case, partnership play. The small step initially I might offer is I’ll write out a guest blog article for you that will be really useful to your audience. And in return, I just want to link back. And then they might do that and that might grow into, okay, let’s do a podcast together. Okay, let’s do some more content together. All right, let’s start presenting business each other’s way. So it’s gone from just a small SEO play to like reciprocal business. Just like your podcast is kind of has so much more play to it than just SEO.

John Jantsch (25:00.878)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, Sam, I appreciate you taking a few moments to drop by the duct tape marketing podcast, where would you invite people to connect with you find out more about your work?

Sam Dunning (25:09.942)

I really appreciate it. Three, three main ways. Really one is LinkedIn. I post ramblings on SEO each and every day. The second is the Breaking B2B podcast where we interview just like this marketing leaders as well as solo episodes on SEO and what’s working on marketing today. Or the third is if you’re tired of seeing competitors above you and organic search results, stealing traffic inbound leads and more, then we might be able to fix it with our unusual approach to SEO. It’s BreakingB2B.com. Happy to chat.

John Jantsch (25:37.584)

Again, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Sam Dunning (25:43.022)

Cheers, man. Thank you.