nadosi.com

John Jantsch (00:01.026)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is Jon Jantsch and my guest today is Victoria Downing. She’s the president of Remodeler’s Advantage. It’s the leading peer group and business improvement resource for remodeling company’s owners. For more than two decades, Victoria has helped thousands of remodelers improve profitability, leadership and work-life balance. Remodeler’s Advantage has really been known as

probably the leading peer group network, certainly in the industry for training and for helping folks grow their businesses. I actually have a couple of clients over the years that have been in this group and it really led me to wanting to interview Victoria. So welcome to the show.

Victoria Downing (00:47.33)

Well, thank you for having me.

John Jantsch (00:48.984)

So I guess let’s just start with kind of somebody said, so Victoria, what is Remidler’s advantage? Maybe just kind of set the baseline for what the group is and does.

Victoria Downing (00:56.581)

Okay, the baseline, let’s talk about the vision first, right? Our vision is to be the company that all remodelers turn to for a better life. We are all about looking at your business as a tool to help you build the life you want for yourself and for your employees while delivering a fantastic product to the community. So that’s our focus when we deliver that in a lot of different ways.

John Jantsch (01:21.902)

Well, it’s interesting to hear you say, because it, you know, I think I led in the bio, they’re talking about making companies more profitable, but you kind of led with work life balance. Do you feel like that’s those two are very, very intrinsically connected? Yeah.

Victoria Downing (01:36.349)

Absolutely. I mean, again, your business is a tool. So I always encourage our members, especially when they first come in, where are we trying to take you? What finances do you have to have to live your life now and into retirement and for your family and for college and all the stuff for your goals? How much money do you need to live that life? Well, that we back into that and say, OK, now how can we modify, manipulate this business to get you the funds you need? again, your employees, it’s not about

just the owner being greedy and taking every penny, it’s building a wonderful culture and future and lifestyle for the employees as well.

John Jantsch (02:15.704)

So the primary tool, guess, and correct me if I’m wrong on that, really is these peer groups. Talk a little bit about how that structure of bringing non-competing folks from all over the country together to really form a community.

Victoria Downing (02:33.775)

Well, I actually realized I have to update my bio because I’ve actually been doing this for since 1990. So for 35 years, I’ve been doing this. And it was, we started, started, I had a business partner at the time, Linda Case. She was very big in the industry for years and years and years. And I joined her then. And we would speak at trade shows and talk to a lot of people, write magazine columns and books and so on. And people started coming up to us saying, we’re looking for the next level.

John Jantsch (02:40.334)

30, mean, yeah.

Victoria Downing (03:02.341)

We’ve been coming to trade shows and listening to the speakers for 10, 15 years. We want more. What can we do? So we started a peer group. It was fantastic. And we slowly just added people and added groups over the years till now. We have over 200 companies across the U S and Canada that altogether produce over a billion dollars in revenue annually. So that’s a, they’re representing a lot of renovations, a lot of remodeling.

John Jantsch (03:02.872)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (03:32.27)

So, I’ll give you a softball question here, because I know the answer to this, but I want to hear you answer it. know, people that get coaching, that participate in peer groups, participate in their community, participate in their industry, tend to be the cream of the crop of an industry. I’ve just seen that across the board. How have you seen that play out with the RA groups?

Victoria Downing (03:47.033)

Yes.

Victoria Downing (03:52.537)

Well, it certainly is the case that we have a number of people. So let me back up a step. We have two different sort of levels of our round table peer groups. And peer groups makes up about a little bit more than half of our business in total with the others being master classes and events and consulting and coaching. So, but in round tables, there’s the base membership and then we have the mentor membership. The mentors tend to be larger, more profitable.

and they tend to have been members of Round Tables for many years. I can’t tell you how many people in the mentor levels have been with us for 15, 20 years. And they just keep coming because they know that they’re always going to learn something. You know, and yes, is there some diminishing returns over from the first fire hose, those first five years to 20 years in? Certainly. But they know that they can still get the bits and pieces that’ll make the difference between

John Jantsch (04:31.566)

You

Victoria Downing (04:49.613)

a good year and an exceptional year. So it really does play out that way.

John Jantsch (04:55.254)

And one of the things I’ve seen you do that, that I think of course, I’m sure evolved or people asked you for was that, you you, these are owners initially in a lot of the peer groups, but then you’ve started to put together all of your marketing people are in a peer group, you know, with them or all of your finance people are in a peer group. And how I’ve got to believe that, that that gets everybody talking the same language, you know, pulling the same direction. Have you, have you found that that, if nothing else is an amazing retention strategy as well.

Victoria Downing (05:08.911)

Yes.

Victoria Downing (05:23.909)

Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, most of the people that are in those what we call tactical groups, there are people in positions in the companies. Most of those people are from member groups, but we do have some that are from outside the community. Right now we have nine groups for production managers, two groups for design managers, a group for CFOs. And then we also have a variety of what we call power meetings. We’ll bring administrators and office managers together for two days of intensiveness.

John Jantsch (05:29.326)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (05:53.39)

Mm-hmm.

Victoria Downing (05:53.539)

And that’s another way they pick up the language. But we have found that the companies that are the most successful, and again, I got to go back to some of our longer term members, they invest in their team, right? We can see it. The people who were buying masterclasses, investing in consulting and coaching and all this stuff had better returns than the rest. So what we did about four years ago, I guess it was right around COVID time.

John Jantsch (06:05.592)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:16.856)

Yeah.

Victoria Downing (06:22.179)

We changed our membership to include what we call professional service credits. So people get, I don’t know, $5,000 worth of credits that they can use for all sorts of other trades. They can use it for production manager round table membership dues. So that we’re encouraging them to follow the lead of the best of the best and invest in their people with, you know, dollars that they have in their pocket from us.

John Jantsch (06:50.606)

So I’ve worked with a lot of remodeling contractors and every business to some extent, it has a lot of this where people got into business because they knew how to do something. I think remodeling contractors in some cases are the ultimate technicians. mean, they were the ones building the walls and putting in windows and things. And then also had to try to build a business. Do you find that in many cases that kind of technician mentality holds them back a little bit? It’s like, I know how to do all this stuff.

Victoria Downing (07:20.128)

Well, it does in a couple of ways. One of the things I’ve found is that when people come to us at the beginning of their relationship with us, that one of the things that is almost 100 % true is that their financial reporting is a mess. You can’t tell what’s going on. So if I’m telling them your business is a tool, well, I got to be able to read the story in that tool, right? I to be able to tell what’s going on. So we have to start by

John Jantsch (07:34.607)

Mmm, yeah.

Victoria Downing (07:46.447)

helping them organize and learn how to read and understand the information that’s in those reports. So then we can say, I always tell people the numbers tell the story. And if they are clear and accurate, the reports can almost tell you what your next move is gonna be. But you gotta have them in a format that we can read and that their peers can read and understand. So that’s one way that being a technician holds them back, because they haven’t had that business training. But another way,

happens a lot with the area of control. The companies that grow, and you know this as well as I do, it’s nothing new under the sun, but those companies that are able to delegate tend to be able to grow. If one of these owners has their fists around every decision that’s made in the company, it makes it very difficult to grow beyond yourself.

John Jantsch (08:20.536)

news.

You

John Jantsch (08:39.884)

Yeah. They become the, they become actually the bottleneck for, for, for growth, even though they claim that that’s what, what they ultimately want. How has, how have you seen also, I know one of the things that you do, I have a little advantage of hearing a little bit more about what, you do from a very tactical standpoint. You know, you make people bring their numbers, you know, they, they, know, in front of their peers have to say, here’s where we’re.

Victoria Downing (08:43.481)

Yes.

John Jantsch (09:08.728)

winning, here’s where we’re losing. How does that kind of peer pressure, or if for lack of a better term, actually help them grow?

Victoria Downing (09:10.371)

Right.

Victoria Downing (09:17.455)

Well, it’s that there are nine other company representatives from nine other companies sitting there and looking at them and they’re saying, well, here’s where you’re down, but look at this guy over here, he’s really high in that, let’s get you two together. Or this guy who’s doing really well in that area gives advice. So it not only helps them get ideas and strategies for improving the lower levels, but…

It also helps these owners figure out what to work on first. You know, there’s that whole thing about just picking the things that are the most important things to work on. And a lot of business owners get confused. They they see them the next shiny object. They take their eye off the ball. They’re not watching their pipeline. They’re not monitoring the financial statements to know what carpenter’s producing profitable jobs and which one’s losing jobs. All of that stuff.

These groups help them pinpoint. Every time a member leaves their peer group, they have two or three written commitments that they have to report back to their group who hold them accountable for achieving those commitments. And then they’ve got the whole team of the peer group, as well as the support staff of us. If they’re having challenges in meeting those commitments, we’ve got resources. One of the beauties, as you know,

in being in the business for as long as we’ve been in the business, that you have a pretty good network of people and resources that you can share and you can help. So we’ve got a lot of that at hand.

John Jantsch (10:52.002)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:58.946)

Let’s talk about technology a little bit. know, I mean, when I started my business, you’ve been in business as long as I have, you know, we didn’t have the web. Right. We didn’t have, yeah, exactly. And so obviously not only that kind of technology has changed, but even how you run, run their businesses. mean, everything from, you know, quoting to tracking, you know, some of the things that they do, know, inventorying. So, I mean, it’s all kind of technology driven today. How, how have.

Victoria Downing (11:07.257)

Yeah, I know. I can remember those days.

John Jantsch (11:28.386)

How have you been able to kind of keep up with that and not just keep up with it, but probably be seen as a leader in helping people adopt new technologies.

Victoria Downing (11:38.117)

Well, one of the things that happens is we try to stay a little bit agnostic on what technology they want to use. There are some outstanding project management softwares focused on the industry. There’s two major ones in our space right now. I listen to our members. I’m constantly reading. We receive information from them all day, every day. I get emails from every group. Every group has their own email thread.

John Jantsch (11:42.35)

Mm.

John Jantsch (11:48.302)

Maybe. Sure.

Victoria Downing (12:03.993)

and I get all those emails all the time. So I’m constantly reading about what’s working, what’s not working. Then I can reach out and ask questions and use that information to compile suggestions and share that information with the rest of the community. So I really relaxed. I mean, I don’t do estimates, right? But I pay attention to those who do and what’s working and what new things they’re finding. you know, so there’s, that’s a big, big one. The whole CRM sales management thing is a big one.

John Jantsch (12:04.129)

Hmm.

John Jantsch (12:25.422)

Yeah. Yeah.

Victoria Downing (12:32.737)

Recently, we had a members only webinar where we featured three of our members and how they use AI in their business. That was pretty fascinating. And now AI has taken over how marketing works and how all those searches and all that work. So we’re getting information on that and sharing it with our community as well. It’s just everywhere. It’s amazing.

John Jantsch (12:41.068)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (12:53.826)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is, it is evolving. You know, not obviously all my listeners are modeling contractors or in the home services business, but it was, so I really, again, it’s this peer group idea that I think is really fascinating. I’m curious, how do you manage some of the dynamics? mean, I’m sure you’ve had times where like people just weren’t getting along in the group or somebody shouldn’t be in that group or, know, somebody’s dominating that group or something. Again, I, I’m sure you’ve seen it all.

Victoria Downing (13:07.343)

Yes.

Victoria Downing (13:22.895)

Yes.

John Jantsch (13:23.819)

How do you kind of manage some of the dynamics of making sure that you’ve got a really gelled group?

Victoria Downing (13:31.183)

Well, right for the last probably six years, my colleague Steve Wheeler has been managing the roundtable groups and he is excellent at first of all placement. When we’re placing someone in a group, we have to start out by making sure there’s nothing competitive in the match. Then we try to match them up with similar volume levels and similar job sizes and similar business models, like are they using all subs?

John Jantsch (13:38.083)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:43.117)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:48.984)

Right. Right.

Victoria Downing (13:59.043)

or they have their own in-house labor, that sort of thing. And then we also look at a personality profile of each of the members that tells us how they like to give and receive information. We use DISC. All of our members take it. We use it internally. We use it for hiring. It’s all over the place. So that helps us also determine where to place people. So are you familiar with DISC at all? OK, so, you know, for example, it’s D, I, S, and C.

John Jantsch (14:05.944)

you

John Jantsch (14:12.023)

Hmm.

John Jantsch (14:23.425)

yeah, sure. Yes, I’m.

Victoria Downing (14:28.547)

The S people are slower to make decisions. They’re a little bit less outgoing. They like to do more one thing at a time. You get a whole group of S people. It’s pretty flippin’ quiet. So we gotta throw a D in there to ramp it up or throw an I in there to give it some jazz, you know? But we’re constantly monitoring that. And our members, first of all, it’s not a class. We’re not pablum feeding them.

John Jantsch (14:39.699)

Hehehehehe

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (14:54.53)

Yeah, yeah.

Victoria Downing (14:54.671)

We’re setting up an environment for them to use the resources we make available. Our mission statement is to light the path of greater success for motivated remodeling professionals. We don’t do it for them. We show them the way. We give them the resources. We light the path. They have to do the work to get where they want to go. So we talk a lot about that. And that’s part of the process. making a commitment.

So anyway, so this is a group of peers that need to be holding one another accountable. And overall for things like commitments, they do a pretty good job. Like, hey dude, you made the commitment, we didn’t hear from you, you didn’t ask for an extension, why are you coming here without your commitment done? That works pretty well. It’s when they don’t like someone or there’s a personality conflict that then it gets a little bit dicey. It’s awkward oftentimes to address that within the group.

So they’ll go to their facilitator or they’ll come to the staff and we’ll help fix it or move somebody to a group that’s a better fit. So we do that when they, because we have 25 owner groups, we can do that.

John Jantsch (16:05.218)

Yeah. Yeah. Do you have, and you don’t need to name names here at all, but do you have some examples of businesses that you’ve just really seen grow and flourish, you know, by directly by being a part of a peer group? Yeah.

Victoria Downing (16:21.727)

Absolutely. So as a matter of fact, I got an email this week and I printed it out so that I could read you some of the things that they said. Every year or as somebody’s been with us a year, I will reach out to them and ask them what are the changes, improvements that they have made since their time with Roundtables. So I did that with this particular company, which is a Canadian company. We have a number of Canadians in our community.

John Jantsch (16:37.698)

Mm-hmm.

Victoria Downing (16:47.439)

They sent me a list of 18 items that they have improved upon since they joined in one year. You know, I always tell people, like in our mission statement, we talk about greater success. I’ll tell people, we know you’re going to be successful, but this will cut your time in half. So just to give you a couple of things, revenue growth of 30 % on our rolling 12 month report, gross profit growth of 36%, complete company overhaul. We rebuilt every department in the company.

John Jantsch (16:50.702)

You

Victoria Downing (17:17.509)

We implemented the work in progress process and we meet monthly to review all key financials. We have 100 % better understanding of the financials, WIP, budgeting, et cetera. We’ve created department scorecards to track and manage KPIs and on and on and on and on. So then the owner goes on and he says,

RA, Remodeler’s Advantage, has certainly opened my mind as to what’s possible in this business. I feel we have a strong foundation to continue to build upon and our potential is just starting to be realized. We have a long way to go and RA is going to be an integral part in making that happen. That we get dozens of letters like that all the time.

John Jantsch (18:02.958)

You know, because you’ve been a pioneer in this particular business model, are you familiar and it’s okay if you’re not, but are you familiar with other industries or other groups similar to RA that you’ve run across?

Victoria Downing (18:13.871)

Well, funny you should ask, I belong to something called the Council of Masterminds, which is a peer group for companies that do peer groups. We think it’s kind of meta, you know? So in that, we’re all different industry verticals that we just came back from our meeting. We have peer groups for dentists, optometrists, computer service companies, insurance brokerages, and on and on. And there’s about 12 of us that come to this. And I’ve been going to that meeting.

John Jantsch (18:19.48)

okay.

Okay. Yeah.

Victoria Downing (18:43.429)

twice a year for 20 years. So I am walking the talk and I come back with pages of notes, just like I do even from our peer groups. It’s a different industry, but business management is business management is business management. So many ideas fit.

John Jantsch (18:59.416)

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was thinking that I’m sure that a lot of your members kind of keep you, you know, like what’s going on in the industry. What’s the future look like? What’s the technology changes? I’m sure you hear a lot of that from your members and that probably helps keep you abreast of things because you’re hearing from kind of the cream of the crop. Yeah.

Victoria Downing (19:14.714)

Yes.

Victoria Downing (19:19.833)

Yes, yes, that does too. But again, we also follow all of the studies like the leading indicator of remodeling activity in Harvard and all of those things to try to stay on top. know, House just did a survey talking about what the future looks like for remodeling. We’re having a session at the summit on looking forward and how to deal with the uncertainty now and what to expect as we go through the next several years. we try to compile all that information for our members and make it readily available.

John Jantsch (19:24.44)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:49.612)

Yeah, awesome. Well, Victoria, I appreciate you spending a few moments to share with my audience. Is there someplace you’d invite somebody to, whether they’re in the industry or not, to learn more about what you do and connect with you?

Victoria Downing (20:04.837)

Well, I’d love them to visit our website, which is RemodelersAdvantage.com. I’d love to them to come to the summit, RemodelersSummit.com. And they can always write to me for more information. I’ll steer them in the right direction. And my email is Victoria at RemodelersAdvantage.com.

John Jantsch (20:25.155)

Well, again, I appreciate you spending a few minutes with us and hopefully we’ll see you one of these days out there on the road.

Victoria Downing (20:26.959)

Thank you.

Victoria Downing (20:31.139)

Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

How to Own Your Small Business Marketing with Sara Nay

How to Own Your Small Business Marketing with Sara Nay written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this second episode of a special series on her new book “Unchained,” Sara Nay returns to the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast to join John Jantsch in breaking down the shift from traditional agency dependency to a practical, strategy-first, AI-enabled in-house marketing model. Sara explains why the agency model is breaking down for both clients and agencies, the hidden costs of outsourcing without ownership, and why small businesses need to reclaim control of their marketing assets. Learn what it means to become an orchestrator (not just a doer), why asset ownership matters, and how AI is empowering teams for smarter, leaner growth.

About the Guest

Sara Nay is CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and author of “Unchained: Breaking Free from Broken Marketing Models.” With 15+ years in the field, Sara’s mission is to help small businesses and agency leaders break free from outdated marketing dependencies and build assets, teams, and systems that drive sustainable, long-term growth.

Book: Unchained: Breaking Free From Broken Marketing Models
Website: unchainedmodel.com
LinkedIn: Sara Nay

Actionable Insights

The traditional agency model is burning out: agencies are treated as “vendors/doers” and clients lose control over their own marketing.
Outsourcing execution without understanding the strategy or owning the accounts leads to lost control, dependency, and costly vendor lock-in.
Businesses should always own their digital accounts, ad assets, and AI systems, ensuring marketing investments build long-term value.
Simplify marketing by narrowing focus to the channels that matter most—driven by a clear strategy and understanding of your target market.
The role of the fractional CMO is evolving: today’s leaders must deliver strategy, execution, and build AI-enabled systems that are true business assets.
AI is shifting marketers from “doers” to orchestrators—freeing up time for strategy, creativity, and higher-value thinking.
Business leaders should future-proof their teams by helping them identify and elevate skills that can’t be replaced by AI.
Strategy is not just for big companies; it’s the key to simplification, focus, and maximizing ROI for small businesses.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

01:19 – Why the Agency Model is Breaking Down
Sara explains why the traditional agency structure is burning out both agencies and clients.
03:22 – The Real Costs of Outsourcing Without Ownership
The dangers of not owning your digital marketing assets and accounts.
06:00 – Simplification Through Strategy
Why “do less, but do it brilliantly” is the new mantra for small business marketing.
09:51 – From Doer to Orchestrator: AI’s Role in Team Evolution
How AI enables marketers to elevate from task execution to system orchestration and creative thinking.
12:15 – Can Anyone Become More Strategic?
Sara discusses how leaders can help team members level up—plus her own journey from operator to strategist.
15:52 – Marketing as an Asset: What Ownership Looks Like
The importance of owning strategy, execution, and digital assets for long-term business value.
18:59 – The Fractional CMO Plus Model
How the “plus” means not just strategy, but management, execution, and building AI systems inside the business.

Insights

“If you ever want to leave the contractor, you basically are going to have to rebuild everything from scratch in your own account. Asset ownership matters.”

“AI isn’t just about replacing tasks—it’s about elevating your team to focus on strategy, creativity, and empathy.”

“Simplifying marketing isn’t about doing less for the sake of less—it’s about doing the right things brilliantly and with clear purpose.”

“The most important asset in your business is the marketing system you own and understand—not just what an outside vendor controls.”

“Fractional CMO Plus isn’t just part-time leadership; it’s strategy, execution, and building the marketing systems and assets that make your business more valuable.”

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.792)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is Jon Jantsch. My guest today is Sarah Nay. She’s the CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and the author of Unchained, Breaking Free from Broken Marketing Models. She spent over 15 years helping small businesses grow through a strategy-first marketing approach. This is actually part two of talking about her new book. You can go back. have it in the show notes. So we’ll link all these shows together. I think we’re going to end up doing three episodes on it.

In this episode, we’re going to talk about the anti-agency shift, a practical blueprint for replacing dependency on vendors with in-house capability, lean AI enabled systems and strategic leadership. So Sarah, welcome back to the show.

Sara Nay (00:44.911)

Thank you. I’m still getting used to being called an author. It’s new for me. It’s a new title. It’s exciting. Thank you.

John Jantsch (00:47.566)

Well, congratulations. So, this is part two of the book. So again, I remind you to go back and listen to what we talked about in the first part of the book. In the previous episode, we’re up to about chapter five or so. And it’s kind of a turning point in this part of the book where you talk about the old model fading, or not just fading, but that it’s actually burning out. What’s actually breaking down inside of

agencies right

Sara Nay (01:19.096)

Yeah. And so when I, we say the anti-agency model, I always like to reinforce it’s, it’s not that agencies are bad. It’s that we love agencies and I feel like I have to keep saying that because there are people and I don’t want to offend anyone. It’s the model and how it’s structured is what I see breaking apart. And so on the agency side, which we’ve lived ourselves, we’ve experienced all of this ourselves. There’s always been a lot of issues in the way things are structured.

John Jantsch (01:24.238)

We love agencies.

Sara Nay (01:44.798)

One being that a lot of agencies are treated as vendors and doers. They get a lot of scope creep. There’s a lot of burnout in the agency space. It’s hard work. As an agency owner or leader, scaling with profitability has always been a challenge. There’s a lot of issues when you are in the executor role as an agency. But also, this book is written for agencies, but also for small businesses, because there’s a lot of issues on the small business side as well.

when they’re over reliant on agencies for execution. So I’m not saying a small business should never execute, or outsource, but if they are outsourcing, they should still understand the strategy, they should understand what’s happening, they should own the accounts or systems that are being executed within. And so it’s more of a collaboration effort.

when you’re working with outsourced vendors, then simply I’m paying this company and I have no idea what they’re doing. And I don’t know if we’re getting results, but I keep paying them because I always have, which a lot of people unfortunately fall into that bucket.

John Jantsch (02:47.222)

Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. I mean, I’ve said for years that a lot of small businesses, it’s actually beyond outsourcing. kind of abdicated, you know, it’s like, don’t, you know, you do that over there, like, cause I hate marketing even. mean, you hear that even in, and it’s, it’s a real shame because I mean, what do you, what do you, where have you seen, maybe they’re not even hidden costs. Let’s just say costs of outsourcing everything, or just as you said, basically,

Sara Nay (02:55.897)

Yep.

John Jantsch (03:15.886)

you know, throwing it to somebody and saying, I don’t even know what they’re doing over there. I just write the check every month. What are, what are the real costs of doing

Sara Nay (03:22.714)

You lose control, honestly, and you have no idea if your marketing is working or not. And so I was speaking to a prospect a while back and they were a home remodeling company, family business, really nice, great people. they were like, we are paying someone, I think it was around $10,000 a month for paid ads. And they’re like, we don’t know what they’re doing, if it’s working, some percent of that is going to their fees, some percent of that is going to spend.

John Jantsch (03:24.365)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (03:50.326)

And so we had a conversation. started asking him number of questions and I was like, well, can we look at your accounts to see, you know, what’s happening in there? And they were like, the contractor owns the accounts. They’re not ours. And so we had to have a conversation with them as to, if you ever want to leave the contractor, you basically are going to have to rebuild everything from scratch in your own account.

But the reason for doing that is because you’re building an asset, paid ads is an asset, because the more you use it, the more you pay, the more you spend, the better it’s gonna get over time as long as you’re optimizing effectively. And so because they were trusting this contractor with their ads, they had no idea if they were getting return. And then basically they were tied to this contractor for life unless they wanted to start over from scratch again. So it’s really the whole.

you know, a of businesses, lot of business owners get into business because they’re passionate about something or they see an opportunity, but they ultimately then have to learn marketing in a lot of cases. And so if they don’t have the time or the interest in even learning marketing, they often then just say, we’ll find a contractor or agency or someone to do it. And then they’re essentially putting all of their trust in someone else because they don’t have the knowledge. And then they’re just putting trust into someone else that hopefully is a good solution. But

Unfortunately, it’s not always the case.

John Jantsch (05:12.802)

So, you know, over the years, marketing has gotten more complex. At least it feels that way for a lot of businesses. Certainly when digital came along and, you know, now let’s throw AI into the mix. I think a lot of a lot of business owners are just thinking, look, it’s so complex. I don’t want to deal with it. I can’t deal with it. Somebody help me. And unfortunately, you know, they’re not always working with people that they have a lot of trust in. And I hate to say it, but

Sara Nay (05:29.839)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (05:41.912)

you some businesses kind of try to over make it overly complex because it’s like, SEO is really hard. You don’t understand it. You know, you need me to, know, to do it for you. how, how can you simplify? How can you begin to simplify a small business marketing without sacrificing results?

Sara Nay (05:46.701)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (05:50.287)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (06:00.762)

Yeah, absolutely. So we used to have on our website, I don’t think we have it on there anymore, but we had something along the lines of do less, but do it brilliantly. And that always really resonated with me because a lot of small businesses are told that they need to be on this channel, on this channel, on this channel, doing this and this and this. And all of a sudden they sign up for all these accounts and they have no idea what’s actually performing well and what’s not. And so we always help people take a step back.

and actually map out the business strategy, the marketing strategy and the team strategy. And that is a great way to really simplify your marketing because you don’t need to be on every single channel. You need to deeply understand your target market. Where do they hang out online? And that’s where you should be directing your focus. And so oftentimes in small business with small teams, less channels, but doing them really well is the solution versus being spread too thin.

Also, thing I would say too is we’ve always on our team at Ducty Marketing, we’ve always hired people that we see as like trainers or leaders. That’s some of our values that we’re looking for. And so if you’re thinking about working with an outsourced solution as a business owner, make sure you’re looking for people that will come in and they’ll talk strategy from the beginning and they’ll ask you hard questions, business related questions from the beginning.

because that’s someone that’s really looking to understand what you’re actually trying to accomplish and not just copying and pasting a campaign from someone else. And so you want to look for someone that’s thinking strategically from the start, but also willing to teach you and educate you along the way. And so when we’re working with clients as a fractional CMO, like we’re creating the strategy, but then we’re meeting with our clients on a very consistent basis. And we’re not just saying,

Here’s your monthly reports and metrics that look foreign to you. We’re digesting them, we’re talking about them, we’re educating our clients with the idea of if they leave us one day, they’re gonna be set up for better success, they’re more educated, they can make better decisions moving forward in the future.

John Jantsch (07:52.737)

me.

John Jantsch (08:01.358)

Yeah, I think that’s one of the, you know, the, the crimes of a lot of, uh, tactics sellers is they, you know, they have these tools that’ll create automated reports, but you know, there’s no insight into it. And most, you know, most business owners have no idea what they’re looking at or why they should pay attention to, to one number or another. You know, you mentioned that, that idea of complexity or simplifying, you know, I think one of the major misconceptions of this idea of strategy, uh, before tactics for a lot of businesses is that they.

you know, a small business thinks, strategy, that’s just for bigger, more complex businesses that need, you know, need more things. Well, it actually is the opposite. I think in that, I think it really simplifies them. Like here’s, here’s a narrower focus here. Here’s what we do. Here’s who we’re after. mean, I think it actually does allow you to simplify what tactics you end up employing.

Sara Nay (08:52.064)

Yeah, I agree. It absolutely simplifies it. Also, I always tell people it gives purpose to your marketing. Without a strategy in place, you are playing the guessing game. And so when you take a step back and you identify your ideal client, your core message, your customer journey, like those are the three starting points. Then all of sudden you’re thinking about growth priorities and execution calendar, but all of the decisions you’re putting into the growth priorities and execution calendars

John Jantsch (08:55.214)

Right.

John Jantsch (09:15.256)

Peace.

Sara Nay (09:16.546)

are based on your ideal clients and the research you would have conducted. And so it simplifies and it gives purpose. So you’re not creating random acts of marketing essentially.

John Jantsch (09:27.458)

Yeah. So a lot of the roles in marketing, both at the business owner level, and then also at the agency level, I think are really evolving as new technology and the changes in technology. You talk about this idea of moving the people inside of organizations need to move from being doers to more like orchestrators. What does that shift look like?

Sara Nay (09:51.167)

Yeah, it’s a great question and topic I love talking about. So if you think about before AI, way back then, we had people on our team that their core role was content production. So if we had blog posts that we were writing for clients, they would do manual research, they would create an outline, they would do some more key word research, they would write the first draft.

John Jantsch (09:58.508)

last week.

Sara Nay (10:14.478)

They would edit it, they would optimize it from an SEO standpoint. They would do all of that stuff manual. So that’s an example of a very doer situation. Now with the evolution of AI, we’re able to elevate those people from doers to orchestrators where they’re using AI systems below them to help with a lot of the heavy lifting. So they’re using AI to help with keyword research, deep research, maybe even before writing any content.

John Jantsch (10:22.158)

Mm-hmm.

Sara Nay (10:40.758)

And then they’re using AI systems to help write initial drafts. And then they’re, they’re editing as humans on the back end. And so it’s still human AI human, but they’re overseeing a system and set of processes instead of being in the weeds for everything. And so it’s been interesting because it’s shifting doers from like doing all of the stuff to really almost a management role. They’re not managing people, but they’re managing systems.

And so we’ve identified that with our team and also with our clients teams as well. And so really, when you think about it that way, you’re thinking about how can AI elevate our team members, not to just make them be more productive or get a lot faster in the work that they’re doing, which I think originally is where people were thinking with AI. It’s more so how can we elevate our team to be able to spend more time being high level and creative and thinking like humans and being empathetic and understanding the big picture.

And so it’s elevating, not just replacing time.

John Jantsch (11:40.396)

So one of the big questions I think that that brings is, you know, there are people that are really good at doing, there are people that are really good at crunching numbers. You know, there are people that are really good at strategic thinking. Does this mean, I mean, can everybody make this shift, you think, to thinking more strategically, to actually writing an article and then asking AI what’s missing? You know, where are the gaps in this? I mean, that’s strategic thinking rather than doer thinking. So do you believe that that

means a lot of organizations are going to have to put different people on the bus or can they level them up?

Sara Nay (12:15.479)

I think it will be harder for some people, no questions asked. Some people are more strategic. Some people are give me a process and I’ll follow it. You know, not that strategic side of things. But I think as business leaders, our time is now to help our team level up as much as possible. Because if someone

is really great at certain tasks that AI is better at already. They’re not necessarily future-proofing their career. And so that’s why with our team, we’ve really thought about everyone individually as team members, and we’ve helped them analyze what they’re doing on a consistent basis and then identified where they should spend their focus and time moving forward. And I suggest everyone do that with their teams moving forward is…

analyze what skills they should focus on and where they need to elevate and then give them the support to be able to elevate and grow because there are certain things that we won’t be better at, we aren’t better at than AI is. so like research, for example, AI is way better research than I ever will be and ever want to be. And so if research is your thing, maybe think about how can you grow and evolve to continue to work alongside AI because that’s how you’ll become irreplaceable.

versus competing against AI.

John Jantsch (13:33.26)

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s definitely a career mindset shift. I also think that I think it can come from practice with practice, frankly. know, mean, sure, I’m used to doing it a certain way. Now with these tools, you know, it’s almost like I have a coworker is how I need to think about it. And I mean, even to the extent of I mean, I, sometimes hate how agreeable AI is.

Sara Nay (13:53.935)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (13:58.763)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:58.862)

You know, to the extent where you’re actually willing to go, no, tell me, tell it like it is, like challenge me on this. I think when you just, you kind of through practice, I think you can, you can actually get better. It’s basically just a process. It’s just a different process.

Sara Nay (14:03.405)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (14:13.838)

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And also you can move to be, you can learn to be more strategic as well. So if you’re listening to this and you feel like you’re an operator, an executor, your process and systems oriented, you’ve never really had that strategic side. I do think you can evolve and grow. So we’ve taken CliftonStrengths over the years. And when I first started at Duct Tape Marketing in 2010, we took one early on and I was like systems operator.

John Jantsch (14:34.243)

Right.

Sara Nay (14:39.81)

very far on that side of things. can’t remember all the language, but I was very much on that side of things. recently we took it a few years ago and I was more on the strategic side of things. And that’s just naturally how I’ve grown over my career. And so I do think you can also evolve as well if you don’t feel like you’re very strategic, put some things in place to free up some mental space to be more strategic. And I think you can grow that muscle as well.

John Jantsch (15:04.674)

Yeah, it’s interesting. Since I’ve known you all your life, I think that I can easily say this that, you know, it’s partly how you view yourself. You know, your role changed and you started viewing yourself differently, I suspect. And that probably led to some of the some of the answers in there. And I think that that, you really can look, mean, can we go as far as saying AI is a personal development tool? But I mean, it is forcing some personal development.

Sara Nay (15:09.56)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (15:29.241)

It’s okay.

John Jantsch (15:33.644)

I think for people to kind of adjust to how they’re going to live inside of that. Let’s move on to asset, the term asset. You frame marketing execution can and should be an asset inside of business, one that they own rather than rent is the term that you’ve used. What does owning execution look

Sara Nay (15:52.635)

Yeah. So we’ve talked a lot about some stories so far about people, but I would consider renting their marketing. So they were just completely relying on outsourced partners had no idea what they were doing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so that’s an example of renting. Let’s go back to owning for a small business. It really comes down to understanding the strategy behind what’s being done. And then as the founder or CEO,

John Jantsch (16:02.846)

But unfortunately, they didn’t look at the lease that they signed, right?

Sara Nay (16:20.538)

working alongside a fractional CMO or a marketing leader or a marketing strategist or an advisor, internal or external, it doesn’t matter, but someone that can really lead the marketing department. And so you’re collaborating and working with that person. So you’re in the know, you’re aware of what’s being done and the why behind it and the metrics and what’s working and not. And so as a CEO or founder, you don’t have to be a CMO, but you need to have conversations with someone that’s leading your marketing on a regular basis.

And then from there is the execution piece. think with the evolution of AI, it has made it for the first time ever, a lot more affordable for small businesses to be able to handle execution. So before everyone just, or not everyone, but a lot of people would just outsource content creation, social, SEO, paid ads, because before you would really need roles within the business for each of those areas. But now with the evolution of AI, I think is if you have marketing,

people in your department that understand those different areas, you can layer AI systems below them and they can do more than they ever had before. But when I talk about owning, like I know it doesn’t always make sense to have in-house marketing team for small businesses. So I’m not saying that’s the only solution. I think it is a great solution now. But if you’re like, I don’t want to deal with managing team or hiring, the whole idea of owning then is

John Jantsch (17:24.258)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (17:45.816)

work with a fractional CMO then that is going to bring in their own team, but they’re collaborating and working with you. And so again, the whole thing is you own what’s being done. You understand what’s being done. And you also own your website and your paid accounts and all of the assets, your chat, GPT or whatever the AI tools that are being used. Like you should own those assets because ultimately if you are going to sell the business one day,

John Jantsch (18:05.751)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (18:13.282)

you need a marketing system that you own that’s getting results that would come with the sale because that’s going to obviously increase the value.

John Jantsch (18:21.548)

Yeah. And I’d push back a little bit. I mean, I think you do have to own the strategy. You have to understand why we’re doing what we’re doing, what we’re trying to accomplish, or otherwise the SEO firm and the paid ads firm, we’re just going to rip you off. And that’s, that’s where I think people really get in trouble. let’s, let’s finish up on this term, fractional CMO, that you’ve mentioned several times. It’s, you know, the term itself has been around, I don’t know, at least 10 years. but,

Sara Nay (18:25.903)

Yes.

Sara Nay (18:32.793)

Yeah.

Yep, absolutely.

John Jantsch (18:45.166)

We have kind of coined a new phrase, I’d like to say, of the fractional CMO plus or FCMO plus. Give us a little distinction between that and the traditional kind of fractional sell a fourth of my time, you know, kind of role.

Sara Nay (18:59.322)

Yeah. And so you just identified like the traditional role is, you know, you get a fourth of my time and I come in and I advise that’s kind of in a very quick nutshell. What a lot of people think of fractional for us, when we work with clients, we come in as a fractional CMO, we create the overall strategy, but we have fractional CMO plus because it doesn’t end there. From there, we’re then able to manage internal marketing teams to up level them.

So marketing plus that, or we’re able to bring our team in to help with the execution as well. So really what we’re doing is we’re combining the agency side of things that we’ve always done with the fractional CMO side of things. And so we’re bringing strategy plus execution. And really the role of the fractional CMO is creating the strategy, working alongside the CEO.

managing all of really the marketing department in a sense, really owning the metrics and communicating those to the CEO and then also owning the budget as well.

John Jantsch (20:00.12)

Well, and increasingly building AI systems and tools inside of business. So again, it does kind of give them something tangible to own. Well, Sarah, I appreciate you stopping by for part two of the Unchained series. You want to tell people where they can find, connect with you and find more about the book Unchained or any of the work that you do as a fractional CMO.

Sara Nay (20:23.308)

Of course. So the book is unchainedmodel.com is the website. It also is going to be available on Amazon starting August 13th. Not sure when this will go live, but it’s going to be there on August 13th. Yes, it will still be there. And then obviously our website, stucktapemarketing.com and LinkedIn is a great platform to connect with me as well.

John Jantsch (20:34.946)

Well, it’ll live for a long time on the, on the ether in the ether. So, yep. Yep.

John Jantsch (20:45.942)

Awesome. Well, again, appreciate you. Stop by and hopefully we’ll see you out there on the road someday soon.

Sara Nay (20:52.314)

Thanks everyone.

Why Branding Begins With Your Team Culture

Why Branding Begins With Your Team Culture written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, guest host Sara Nay talks with Rhea (“Ray”) Allen, president and CEO of Pepper Shock Media and host of the Marketing Expedition Podcast. Rhea shares her expertise on how small businesses can intentionally connect their internal culture and external brand, why storytelling and authenticity matter more than ever, and how team engagement drives both retention and marketing success. The conversation covers practical ways to align HR and marketing, build buy-in for core values, and keep company culture vibrant—whether you’re working in person or virtually.

About the Guest

Rhea Allen is the president and CEO of Pepper Shock Media, an award-winning agency known for its innovative approach to branding, culture, and storytelling. As host of the Marketing Expedition Podcast, Ray draws on decades of experience helping businesses grow from the inside out. She’s a sought-after speaker, business builder, and advocate for blending human connection with effective marketing.

Actionable Insights

Culture and brand are inseparable—your brand begins on the inside, with your team’s experience and values.
Aligning HR and marketing ensures a consistent, authentic brand both internally and externally.
Involving the whole team in defining values and sharing stories builds lasting buy-in and engagement.
Storytelling—both within the team and with customers—is a powerful tool for passing along culture and creating brand advocates.
Authentic, “human” content and behind-the-scenes glimpses outperform stock images and generic AI content, especially on social media.
Retention, happiness, and engagement are the best ROI for culture investments—happy campers create happy customers.
In-person and virtual teams both need intentional rituals, questions, and fun to keep culture thriving.
Volunteer work, team lunches, and shared experiences (even camping!) can strengthen bonds and reinforce culture.
Company culture is always evolving—leaders must actively participate and continuously nurture it.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

01:04 – Culture Starts with Brand, from the Inside Out
Rhea explains how employee experience shapes external brand and customer perception.
01:55 – Hiring and Values Alignment
Sara shares how leading with mission, vision, and values in hiring supports both retention and brand.
03:26 – Culture & Brand Camp: Breaking Down Silos
How Pepper Shock Media brings HR and marketing together for shared ownership of culture.
05:24 – Team-Defined Values and Storytelling
Why involving the whole team in crafting values creates buy-in and lasting culture.
06:02 – Sharing Values Through Stories
Practical exercises for bringing values to life and onboarding new team members.
07:19 – Bringing Stories into Marketing
Rhea explains how customer and team stories drive authenticity in external branding.
08:29 – Authenticity as a Differentiator in the Age of AI
Why human, imperfect content outperforms polished, automated posts.
12:28 – What’s the ROI of Fun?
Both guests discuss why investing in culture pays off in retention, happiness, and productivity.
13:03 – Rituals that Build Culture (Lunches, Questions, Celebrations)
Rhea shares Pepper Shock’s traditions for team bonding and knowledge sharing.
16:21 – Volunteerism, Camping, and Culture Beyond the Office
The value of shared experiences outside of work—whether in person or remote.
19:39 – Action Steps for Leaders
Rhea’s advice: Culture will exist with or without you—actively guide it and keep your campers happy!

Pulled Quotes

“Culture and brand go hand in hand. Your brand starts from the inside out—with the experiences your team and customers have.”
— Rhea Allen

“Happy campers create happy customers. Retention, joy, and team engagement are the ROI of investing in culture.”
— Rhea Allen

Duct Tape Transcript

Sara Nay (00:01.635)

Welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is your host, Sarah Nay. And today I’m stepping in for John Jantsch and I am joined by Rhea Allen. So Rhea Allen is the president and CEO of Pepper Shock Media, host of the Marketing Edition Podcast and a business owner who knows what it’s like to build a brand from the ground up. So welcome to the show, Ray. I’m glad you’re here.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (00:23.064)

Well thank you so much for having me, Sarah. This is exciting.

Sara Nay (00:26.145)

I know and fun backstory, right? And I met online through a different group and actually figured out that we’re both in Idaho about 25 minutes away from each other. And I haven’t met a ton of business owners online from Idaho. So it was really exciting to connect with you, right?

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (00:42.03)

We had to go global to come local, right? Yeah.

Sara Nay (00:45.015)

Exactly. Exactly. Well, let’s dive on in. We’re going to focus on the topic really of branding and culture today, because that’s one of your specialties as I know. And so I’ve heard you say before, culture and brand go hand in hand. And so can you break down what does that mean exactly to small business owners?

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (01:04.268)

Well, what I always try to emphasize most is that your culture starts with your brand from the inside out. And sometimes culture can’t necessarily be controllable. It’s what it is, the experience that both your employees and the people who come to you for that experience of what you serve and in an agency setting, culture is so important because it is our brand. It’s who we are and how we represent what we do.

And when we work with other companies that want to understand how they can continue to build and grow their culture in a positive way, in the way that they would like to see their brand exuded into the world, whether it’s recruiting new employees or new customers, and retention is always a huge part of it. So that’s why I say culture and branding go hand in hand together for sure.

Sara Nay (01:55.718)

Yeah, and it’s great. I love that thought process. And what I’ve been doing for years at Duct Tape Marketing is whenever we hire someone new for a role within our company, we always start with the job description and we lead with here’s our mission, here’s our vision, here’s our values. And so I want someone to read through all of that first on the job description. Then I’ll get to here’s the role and the tasks and all the other details because

I want someone to be aligned culturally, like that to me is one of the most important things because as you said, it helps people stick around for a long time and also represent our brand in the way we want to be represented. And then, you know, when we’re going through the interview process, our first interview is always based on values. And so one of the things we’re always trying to hire for is growth minded people because in the marketing space, it’s always continuing and evolving.

And so I’m asking questions to identify if they’re growth minded and then asking them skills specific questions. So that’s just one of the ways that we’ve leaned into making culture and hiring aligned with our brand long term.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (02:58.446)

Absolutely, and we do a variety of things, but one of the things that we set up is we call it culture and brand camp. So this one time at brand camp, we go through a process and it really is about aligning the HR roles and the marketing roles together so that they’re not siloed and they’re working together to create the culture and brand that they really want to be.

Sara Nay (03:06.276)

nice.

I love it.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (03:26.688)

known for and have that experience that they want people to walk away from and, feel the feelings that you want when you’re in that process and going through that process. So, we go through culture and brand camp and, do a number of exercises to work together, to understand both internal and external messaging. And when everyone’s singing from the same sheet of music and saying similar terminology and, able to articulate that in a way that is, is.

Sara Nay (03:45.962)

Yeah.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (03:55.636)

mindful of how they all can own it and have ownership in their, their own branding and how other people are going to perceive them because of the way that they have been able to articulate it and what experiences they want to have. and so going through that process and doing some team building exercises and some branding exercises and, bringing the two sort of areas that are sometimes really siloed in companies and they don’t always come together and work together.

but then when we bring them together and they are in that mode of like, we, we are in control of our own culture and we are in control of our brand that we have out there. So, it’s a, it’s a fun exercise to go through and do that with companies to, to, have them walk through those processes together and have that experience of their own together as well.

Sara Nay (04:31.906)

Yeah, I love that. And I think that gets, I’m assuming it gets buy-in from the whole team and support behind the whole team. One of the things that we did fairly recently is we used to have values that John and I are, our founder identified as like our core values.

and we kind of made those up on our own and then we would like tell the team about them. We’re like, that doesn’t feel right. And so we did a session as a team where we had everyone identify like what they wanted the values to be. And we then collaborated and crafted our core values together. And to me, that was so much more of a rewarding but also buy-in experience for the team because they were part of the process versus being here’s our values, go live by these ultimately. Yeah, go do this.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (05:24.888)

Yeah. Now go do this. Yeah. And whenever you can include the team into that decision making process, they have so much more ownership in it. And to take it even a step further, having them tell stories around those values that you’ve selected and where maybe there’s a, an example of something that occurred because of that value. And then having them tell you about a time when, now give me, give me an example of one of the values that you and your team came up with Sarah.

Sara Nay (05:48.59)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (05:53.093)

Well, one of them is growth minded, like always being leaders and innovators and ahead of the game. So it’s that whole idea of just like growth and always learning and evolving.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (06:02.35)

So one of the activities that you can do just as an icebreaker to get people in the mode, um, anyone who cares to share, tell me about a time where this value came through. What was the occurrence? What happened that you had this growth minded mentality or somebody else can share about somebody else on the team. And now storytelling becomes this a part of the culture, right? We know back in ancient history that storytelling was.

how culture was being able to get passed along to generation to generation. have the hieroglyphs on the walls that were drawn. so storytelling is such a huge part of culture, no matter what kind of culture we’re talking about, whether it’s company culture or if it’s your indigenous people and the culture, the stories that are being told is the way that that continues to happen. And it’s really great for new people coming in to hear those stories when something has happened.

Sara Nay (06:55.14)

Yeah.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (06:57.71)

And, you can exemplify it and also makes people feel really good when they have an opportunity to share about others and in circumstance that occurred, that can help continue those stories.

Sara Nay (07:09.218)

Yeah, I love it. And so a lot of what you’re talking about there is like storytelling as a team, as a culture. Do you take any of that storytelling and bring it, you know, as a marketing or a branding initiative as well?

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (07:19.95)

Absolutely. And where it really can shine through is when you now involve your customers and they have testimonials and you can have them share a story about the circumstances or experiences that they’ve had with people that they’ve interacted with on your team. So we know it’s all about the people sometimes more than anything else, the people that work with you. And, and so when you can bring that full circle and then you have stories that you can tell of, of the values that also shown through with your

your customers, your clients, then it really does start from the inside out.

Sara Nay (07:54.819)

Yeah, I love it. A lot of what’s happening in the marketing space specifically right now is a lot of people are putting out a lot of content at scale because of the evolution of AI. And so one of the things that I’m seeing growing and importance is storytelling and being more human, but also being authentic and maybe even making some mistakes in the stuff you’re putting out there because it just feels everything feels so polished right now. So can you touch on

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (08:04.44)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (08:15.758)

Mm-hmm.

Sara Nay (08:24.746)

Do you see storytelling and authenticity growing in importance these days as well?

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (08:29.548)

Absolutely. In fact, I just did a panel discussion, and actually it was HR, the HR, sorry, public relations and then, advertising coming together. So mine was all about personal branding and, I created an acronym of keeping it real. so real, obviously, you know, being authentic and having that realness about you. Right. And then, being able to.

Sara Nay (08:48.494)

Nice.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (08:57.086)

extend that to others and have and share that consistently. And then of course, authenticity and then leveraging your network to be able to share that with others and showing up and keeping it real. yeah, authenticity is definitely, I think more valued than some of the AI that really at Nausium comes out. That’s just not real, right? I mean, it’s, it’s artificial. It’s artificial intelligence. So

Sara Nay (09:08.793)

Yeah.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (09:22.882)

Having your own spin on your own words sometimes really does help with the content that’s coming out. And I see that that’s a shift. Everyone was kind of, we’re going to use AI to replace the people, the human touch of what we’re putting out there. And I really think that you can tell somewhat now. And I mean, it’s getting really good where you can’t necessarily, and it’s trying to write in your voice. But there’s still some quirkiness about the AI.

still say it takes HI to use AI, so human intelligence. Yeah.

Sara Nay (09:54.626)

Yes, it does. I love it. Yeah. And I think that’s what I’m experiencing on LinkedIn specifically, just because I spend a lot of time there. I’m not saying it’s not having anywhere else, but like on LinkedIn, there’s just a lot of generic content being published right now. And so I’ve, you know, shifted to try to be more authentic and more human. And so I’ve shared posts recently that like I shared a post last week or so ago that was like my desk.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (10:08.15)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sara Nay (10:20.705)

and it was my kids, had decorated my desk just because and that’s just, it’s getting like that human content is getting so much more traction because people are like, that feels more unique and more personal than this other post that anyone could have written.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (10:32.76)

Yep. Well, and it’s true. I mean, you can just take a look at, you know, the history of what you’ve posted. you, if we post pictures of our actual team and not just stock images or, know, if we do behind the scenes from video shoots that we’re doing, or if we, you know, show real people in action, we get so much more engagement and traction and follows than we do if it’s just a stock image or an inanimate, you know, object. And I love

Sara Nay (10:56.77)

Yeah.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (11:00.332)

Being able to showcase our people. again, it’s about the culture and showing what we’re doing and, and the volunteer activities that they’re about, or, know, showing, showing when they were little and, know, kind of what became of them and, and, know, just, fun things like that. There are so much more, I think engaging and authentic and real.

Sara Nay (11:18.702)

Yeah, I agree. And kind of a funny story on that. posted a new book coming out and I posted a JPEG of the cover and luckily it hasn’t gone to print yet, but someone pointed out that there was a typo on the cover. But her response to me was like so kind. She sent me a direct message and she was like, you know what I love about this? It shows that you’re human and you’re not just using AI for this content.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (11:29.561)

no!

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (11:37.698)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (11:40.875)

And so she actually was like very kind, but she like appreciated a little bit of an error because everything is feeling very polished at this point. And so I thought that was kind of funny.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (11:46.582)

Mm-hmm, right? Nice. Well, I’m glad that you were able to get that. I was like, there’s always something, and you’ve been so closely tied to it, you’re always gonna overlook something. There’s always gonna be something.

Sara Nay (11:54.851)

I know, I was like.

Sara Nay (12:00.683)

Yeah, always. like three people on my team looked at it, but still we missed it. yeah, I talk a lot about, because when I’m training marketing agencies, building and scaling a business and hiring team, I talk a lot about what we do for building culture. And so a lot of that is like, we do show and tell on Slack every Wednesday and we do happy Fridays and we have team meetings where it’s just kind of fun. And so I talk about all that stuff. And sometimes I get the question of,

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (12:04.534)

Of course. That’s how it works, of course.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (12:21.036)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (12:28.887)

What’s the ROI for all of that? Like you’re paying people to do these fun things. And so I’m curious, what would be your answer to a question like

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (12:30.83)

Mm-hmm.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (12:36.718)

my gosh. well, first of all, if you don’t have a little bit of fun and incorporate the human aspect of living and working together all the time, and we spend more time with our work coworkers than we do with our spouses. Well, not in my case, cause I work with my spouse, but a lot of times, like, you know, if you look at how much time is spent with the people that you are, you know, with every day, it’s your coworkers. So I feel like if you are just,

Sara Nay (12:52.003)

Yeah

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (13:03.478)

robotic in what you’re doing and not engaging and not being, you know, that team player or having being a part of the culture, you’re going to make life miserable for yourself. Right. And so I feel like having time that you can naturally and be okay with spending some of that. It is an ROI in your, you know, you’re investing in your people and you’re investing in them wanting to stay, right. Can that retention. And we know that when somebody leaves a company, it takes

just twice as much or even more to replace them. And then all of the, knowledge that they’ve, that has just been left behind because they’ve left the company. So you want to do the things that are going to help retain those people. And, know, we, we spend time. We, we also do once a month. Now we do, we used to do it every week, which is a little, little, okay. I get it. You know, but now we do, so originally started out as Friday fun lunch, but then people take Fridays off. so, you know, some, some, some of us do, you know, summer Fridays off.

Sara Nay (13:55.076)

Thanks.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (14:03.176)

and have the four day work week fine. So then we moved it to Wednesdays. So then it become lunch instead of funch. So Friday, fun lunch, and then lunch. And now everybody is only, I mean, all of us are all in the office on Mondays. So now it’s munch. And so we, once a month go, we celebrate work anniversaries where I like to call workversaries or birthdays or something that we’re celebrating. And we actually came up with some things that we always go through. it’s,

Sara Nay (14:08.835)

I love it.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (14:32.334)

successes and frustrations, celebrations and appreciations, new technologies, or book or blog reports, or any, you know, anybody that’s reading a book, tell us a little bit about it or a blog or something, you know, new technology, something like that. And then a question of the day. And so we always come up with a random question, you know, what’s your favorite cereal as a kid, or what was your favorite cartoon to watch or, you know, who are you rooting for, for the Super Bowl? Right. I mean, so, so we always come up with something fun.

Sara Nay (14:50.003)

Thanks.

Sara Nay (14:58.965)

Yeah, yeah.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (15:01.542)

And, we all participate and, you know, successes and frustrations. you know, if we’re in a public place, we are careful about our frustrations, but, but it’s important to acknowledge, you know, big successes, big wins all the time. And also if there is something, you know, that is frustrating people, I want to hear about it. And it’s a safe space to be able to share that if there is some sort of frustration or something that needs to be acknowledged. and then we can talk about it, but, then of course, celebrations, appreciations, and then.

Sara Nay (15:10.275)

Yeah.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (15:29.92)

The new technology book or blog reports is helpful because if people are learning about new things that are coming up or new tools or maybe a client wants to investigate a new tool or there’s a new Adobe plugin or who knows what, we’re talking about it and sharing that and it’s purposeful and intentional so that we can make sure that we cover those things. It’s a fun thing to do. The other thing that we do every year, and this is one of the questions I ask when I hire people.

Sara Nay (15:44.696)

Yeah.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (15:58.062)

is if they like to go camping or not, or if they’re a glamper or like, absolutely not. Because every year all of us with our spouses, our, you know, kids, pets, everybody, we go camping together, um, as a bit one big, huge pepper shock family. And, um, if you’re not a camper, you’re probably not going to really appreciate the culture that we’ve built. I mean, it’s not mandatory. I mean, you know, it has happened, but.

Sara Nay (16:00.72)

No.

Sara Nay (16:17.744)

Yeah.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (16:21.742)

Um, it’s, it’s really important to us because we love the outdoors and especially here in Idaho, we have all the seasons and it’s definitely, you know, we live here on purpose. can do work anywhere. Uh, but we purposely choose to, have, you know, Idaho is our back, you know, our back door. So, um, that’s a really important part of our culture to, to enjoy hiking and, know, those types of things. so, um, it’s, it’s fun and people look forward to it. It’s, know, what are we going to do this year? What are we, you know,

Are we gonna go rafting? Are we gonna go hiking? What are we doing? And so it’s something fun and it’s always been a part of our culture since we started and it’s definitely something that we really enjoy. So yeah, there’s definitely things we do. The other things that we do, Kristy helps, our graphic designer, we do volunteer time together and we’ve boxed food up at the food bank.

next week we’re going to go to, there’s a local place called the Idaho Botanical Garden. So we’re going to get our horticulture on and bring our favorite planting tool. And we’re going to go help the landscapers and do some fun things there, but it’s just a part of the culture. And yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s otherwise paid time, but, you know, I want them to be involved in the community. want us to feel and come together as a team and doing some things that are not your typical.

Sara Nay (17:23.742)

Nice.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (17:42.89)

average workday all the time is really enriching for our people. So we want to continue to do that.

Sara Nay (17:49.492)

Yeah, that’s great. And that’s how I mean, I answered that question as well. When people ask about ROI, it’s you’re going to retain people longer, they’re going to be happier, you’re going to enjoy work more. And to me, that’s like the best kind of ROI you can get. So I think that’s great. And I love your examples, because a lot of what you shared are in person opportunities, because you work in person where I run a virtual company. And so we’re trying to do some of that stuff virtually, which is really interesting as well.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (18:00.364)

Absolutely.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (18:08.174)

Mm-hmm.

Sara Nay (18:13.482)

And so we do things like I mentioned, like the show and tell on Slack, that’s just like such a small thing. And all we do is we ask a random question every single Wednesday at a scheduled time. And then people answer the question. But when you’re remote, you don’t get time to, know, what’s your favorite movie? What’d you do this weekend? What’d you, know, you don’t have time for like all of those things. And so that question, then, you know, someone might ask, what’s your favorite movie? And then like three people are like, my gosh, that’s my favorite movie. I can recite every line. And now they have this like bond that they wouldn’t have had.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (18:26.338)

Mm-hmm.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (18:40.814)

Mm-hmm.

Sara Nay (18:42.05)

just through work meetings and going through the motions. Cool.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (18:44.526)

Yeah, I know during pandemic, we definitely all worked remote and I even had a couple of people move out of state to go live out their homes and with their families. And I can relate to trying to keep the company culture alive through zoom. And, you know, there’s different things that, that we, we did. we, we played, pandemic reindeer games, came up with some fun things for them to do some trivia things and things like that, but.

Sara Nay (19:08.034)

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (19:13.282)

Yeah, I mean, it’s important to keep your team together even if they’re not in the same room or same building. Yeah, for sure.

Sara Nay (19:18.208)

Yeah, those pandemic times were weird times, weren’t they? Well, we talked a about a lot of great stuff today when it relates to culture and branding. If anyone’s just kind of feeling stuck on this topic, how they actually create a culture and how they tie it to their branding, are there any final thoughts or any action items you would share with them?

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (19:22.056)

Yeah

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (19:39.086)

Yeah, absolutely. I think the important thing to remember is that culture is gonna be there whether you help guide it or not. The culture can be what you wanna mold it and grow it into or it’s going to become something that you have no control over if you don’t participate in the culture that you want your company to have. And so I think if you can identify

that there might be some needs in the areas of bridging the gaps between the different departments that come together and how they can work together to help build the culture that you want between HR and marketing and ops and all of the different areas that you have in a company. How can you make it to where everyone is singing from the same sheet of music and it’s all in tune, right? You all have the same goals in mind together that they build together.

just recognizing that there is a need for that and it’s an ongoing thing. It’s not an overnight like, well I did a company picnic. I’m good for a while. No, no, Yeah. You’ve got to continuously build it, continuously grow it, and do things to continue to, to have your employees engaged. And I always say, if you’ve got happy campers.

Sara Nay (20:43.167)

Check that box.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (20:57.846)

Right? You’re going to have happy customers. so keep your campers happy. And you know, at Culture and Brand Camp, that’s one thing we focus on is happy campers then creates happy customers.

Sara Nay (20:58.023)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Sara Nay (21:09.525)

I love it. Well, thank you for sharing all your insights. Lots of good stuff in this episode. If people want to continue to learn from you, where can they connect with you online?

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (21:18.408)

so couple of different places. of course, the marketing expedition podcast is free to listen to on pretty much every podcast platform. And then, which is powered by pepper shock media, our company, and, you can visit pepper shock.com and we’re on all the social platforms, LinkedIn, all of that. So, you can find me in Ray is R H E a Alan a L L E N. So Ray Allen.

And I would look forward to chatting with anybody that would like to talk about their company culture and branding.

Sara Nay (21:51.073)

Thank you so much Ray for being here and thank you everyone for listening to the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Again, this is your host, Sarenée, and we will see you next time.

Rhea (“Ray”) Allen (22:00.792)

Thank you.

The Secret Weapon of Great Brands

The Secret Weapon of Great Brands written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Laura Ries, globally recognized branding strategist, bestselling author, and president of Ries & Ries. Laura shares insights from her new book, “The Strategic Enemy: How to Build and Position a Brand Worth Fighting For.” The conversation explores why brands need a focused enemy, how to find and define it, and how legendary brands—from Liquid Death to Tesla—win by creating real contrast and bold positioning. Laura breaks down her proven framework for entrepreneurs and established businesses alike, showing why focus, differentiation, and a compelling “enemy” are the keys to winning the battle for the mind.

About the Guest

Laura Ries is a globally recognized branding strategist, bestselling author, and president of Ries & Ries. Together with her father, Al Ries, Laura has helped Fortune 500s and ambitious startups win through bold, focused brand positioning. She’s a sought-after speaker, trusted advisor, and author of “The Strategic Enemy,” a book that helps brands of any size build a message—and a business—worth fighting for.

Actionable Insights

A strategic enemy isn’t just a competitor; it’s a problem, category, or alternative that provides contrast and focus.
Brands without focus have no enemy—and without an enemy, they lack meaning and energy in the market.
The enemy can be a product feature (plastic bottles), an outdated process (taxis), or simply “the way it’s always been done.”
Great positioning starts with knowing who you are for—and who you are not for.
Legendary brands like Liquid Death, Uber, Oatly, and Tesla win by breaking category conventions and boldly defining what they’re against.
The first step for any brand: narrow your focus, say “no” to what you’re not, and stake out a clear enemy to create differentiation.
Entrepreneurs and challengers have an edge—they can outmaneuver larger brands by focusing on a single idea and exploiting big company weaknesses.
Visual hammers and clear metaphors make positioning “stick” (think: Liquid Death, White Claw, or even the Duct Tape Marketing brand itself).
Beware of “foe enemies”—don’t invent rivals that aren’t real. Your enemy must be genuine, tangible, and tied to customer pain or desire.
Big brands can stay relevant by launching new brands to attack new categories (instead of extending old ones).

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

02:39 – Strategic Enemy vs. Competitor
Laura explains why brands need a contrast, not just a list of rivals.
03:08 – Liquid Death, Uber, and the Power of Defining the Enemy
How bold brands win by naming and attacking what they’re against.
04:36 – The Enemy as Problem, Not Just a Company
Positioning can be about fighting a pain or outdated alternative.
05:57 – Why Brands Without Focus Lack Energy
The risk of trying to be everything to everyone.
07:55 – Focus First: Who You’re For, and Who You’re Not
The role of clarity and saying “no” in setting up your enemy.
08:53 – Category Over Brand: Why Tesla and Red Bull Won
How owning a category and pioneering a new idea creates leadership.
12:14 – Entrepreneur Advantage: The Power of Courage and Focus
Why challengers can outmaneuver incumbents with sharper positioning.
16:22 – Multiple Brands Beat Line Extensions
Big brands should create new brands to fight new battles.
18:04 – Subcategories and Visual Hammers
Why new subcategories (like hard seltzer or nonalcoholic beer) and visual metaphors drive market momentum.
20:31 – The Danger of “Foe Enemies”
Laura cautions against inventing fake rivals—your enemy must be real.
22:29 – Making Positioning Visual and Memorable
The power of metaphors, visual hammers, and simple storytelling.

Pulled Quotes

“Brands without enemies are brands without energy. Focus first, then pick the enemy that brings your brand to life.”
— Laura Ries

“Legendary brands win by creating real contrast—fighting a problem, a category, or the ‘way it’s always been done.’”
— Laura Ries

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.144)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Laura Ries. She’s a globally recognized branding strategist, bestselling author and president of Reiss and Reiss, the firm she runs with her father, legendary positioning pioneer Al Reiss. Laura’s guided Fortune 500 companies and fast growing startups alike on how to win the battle in the mind through bold, focused brand positioning. We’re going to talk today about her latest book,

the strategic enemy, how to build and position a brand worth fighting for. So Laura, welcome back to the show.

Laura Ries (00:37.082)

Well, thanks so much. It’s a pleasure to be here. And to see you again.

John Jantsch (00:40.586)

Likewise. And you know, there are very few people I can say this to, but you know, when I was just getting started, father’s book was very instrumental read for me as well. I’m sure you’ve heard that more than once.

Laura Ries (00:55.45)

and it was a very instrumental book for me as well. It’s what got me here, got me interested in falling in love with positioning. so it’s such a pleasure to have had the chance to work with him for so many years.

John Jantsch (01:09.13)

And as you and I have talked before, my daughter actually is our CEO and has worked with me for 15 years. it’s kind of that, you know, it’s funny people who maybe haven’t done that before, you know, have a lot of questions about like, how does that work? So I’m curious for you. I mean, for us, it’s been great. We have a great personal relationship. don’t take that. I mean, we do take it into business because I trust her at a level that I don’t think I would ever trust anyone else in business.

and things of that nature, you know, doesn’t, some of the drama that people are used to, just, we’ve never experienced it as that. I get the sense that you’re probably in that same boat.

Laura Ries (01:48.6)

Yeah, no, you do have that long-term trust and you’re in it for the long haul for your family, you hope. And so that longevity and history and all that you bring into it. But yeah, you do have to love what you do. I think that’s the most important thing. I love positioning. wasn’t that I just, my dad was cool, right? But I also really enjoyed, I loved learning from him. And then of course, I enjoyed to teach him a few tricks as well too.

John Jantsch (02:03.853)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (02:09.23)

you

John Jantsch (02:15.874)

Yeah, of course you wouldn’t stick around if I wouldn’t think if you loved it. It’s a grind. be. So you got to have some passion for it. So let’s jump right into the book. One of my first questions, I think I know, well, I know the answer to this, but I want you to clarify. How would you differentiate between a strategic enemy and say a competitor?

Laura Ries (02:39.652)

companies have lots of competitors. Right? So that’s the reality. But a strategic enemy is strategic in terms of it’s very important in your strategy. It’s always important to understand the enemy. But like I said, there’s many, but you want to pick that one. And the most important thing is you want to show what the contrast is. And so that is, for example, you have Liquid Death, right? One of the hottest new water brands. They pick not other water brands, but

John Jantsch (02:41.506)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:04.663)

Right.

Laura Ries (03:08.634)

Plastic water bottles as the enemy death to plastics is their slogan So they said no to something they didn’t offer it in plastic and they very pointedly said that you know We are killing the earth with plastic aluminum is much more infinitely recyclable and sadly We don’t even recycle much plastic anymore even though they can be so very important message and of course they have

brilliant snazzy marketing along with it, but it is backed by something very specific, very tangible, and very much a difference from the enemy that they have set up. Another is, for example, Uber. The original name was ubercab.com, if you remember back in the day.

John Jantsch (03:45.449)

funny. No, I actually don’t know that I knew that one.

Laura Ries (03:49.262)

Yeah, no, I didn’t either, but you know, I do my research on these books. if you have a name like Uber cab, how can taxis be the enemy? The strongest thing to rally consumers for your cause is not so much to say, you know, come with us, we’re great, but let’s fight somebody else. Let’s fight those taxi cabs out there and we have a better way. Our way is that new category, which is always the best way to build a brand. And that was, you know, Uber with the ride sharing.

John Jantsch (03:51.502)

Right.

John Jantsch (04:07.661)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (04:18.124)

You know, it’s really interesting because I’m sure most people’s minds go to the enemy being like, you know, the, people that beat you out, you know, for, whatever, you know, work that you get. And as I listened to you to this, it’s probably in some ways the enemy can just be a problem that your ideal client is facing. Right.

Laura Ries (04:36.314)

Absolutely. like I say, it’s not evil corp is the enemy, right? That it’s a really big bad guy or thing or something out there. It is, yeah, two things, either a problem that you’re going to solve or just the alternative. There’s not just one way to do something. mean, think about mouthwash. Listerine, it’s medicine breath is what Scope said because they were selling good tasting mouthwash. But, know, Listerine, the fact that taste you hate twice a day, I mean, that

John Jantsch (04:40.526)

Right.

Laura Ries (05:04.505)

Talk to the efficacy. mean, it was very strong. That’s what was killing all the germs. So there’s two sides of every coin. And that’s the important part of strategy and of thinking about positioning in a way that it’s not just what we are, but what is the contrasting alternative that puts us in a better light? And there’s always multiple ways to look at things. I mean, some people like regular cow’s milk. It’s delicious. But then you have Oatly coming in with, wow, no cow, and selling, you know, this is milk for humans, you know, made from oats.

John Jantsch (05:34.904)

So it’s, it’s all, well, I shouldn’t say it almost. is, I mean, you’re a really key point of this book is you’re saying that brands need to actually maybe go looking for this enemy, find it, right? I mean, not necessarily make it up, but like without it, you even go as far as what was your statement or your brands without enemies or brands without energy that, that, that we actually need to go find this thing, right?

Laura Ries (05:49.818)

That’s right.

Laura Ries (05:57.518)

without meaning and here’s the biggest problem is most companies aren’t focused enough to have an enemy. They do too many things in too many markets and try to appeal to too many people. When you do that, you don’t have a focus and without a focus, you don’t have an enemy. So sometimes the first thing is looking at yourself and saying, what can we say no to? If you say no to something that tends to put you in a direction where you can find an enemy. What did Southwest do? They said no to first class being the coach class only.

John Jantsch (06:16.92)

Yeah.

Laura Ries (06:26.99)

that was, you know, they had more affordable seating. They also made the whole, you know, theme of the airline being about fun and games and they, you know, the stewardesses and airline attendants would make jokes and crack jokes. But, you know, you can’t crack jokes if you got a first class and a curtain and then us back in the coach, right? So that focus can very much help you define what your identity is and position against what that, you know, enemy you have put out there. And, companies too often get in trouble because

John Jantsch (06:45.006)

You

Laura Ries (06:56.332)

What is Southwest doing today? They’re adding first class and premium seating. All of that is going to undermine the bags don’t fly. And here’s the thing, seat assignments, I’m all for. That’s going to get rid of the chaos. But bags not flying free, that was something that they could anchor their brand on and say, everybody else is charging for bags, but here bags fly free. And listen.

John Jantsch (06:58.647)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:02.254)

Charging for bags.

Laura Ries (07:21.71)

That has an operational efficiency too, because if the bags fly free, people will check them. And then you could board the plane. Otherwise, everyone’s carrying all their bags on with them and that slows down everything. So it is very sad when companies lose their focus and we’re trying to fight that fight to help them stay focused.

John Jantsch (07:26.606)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:40.952)

So sounds like I hear you saying that really the first step too is that as you said, you’ve got to know who you are first before you can go out there and find the enemy maybe. But in a lot of ways, it probably starts with narrowing your focus, right? Here’s who we’re for. So here’s who we’re not for. It’s probably step one, isn’t it?

Laura Ries (07:55.801)

Absolutely.

That’s right. Yeah, it’s a balance between knowing who you are, what you can say no to. But at the end of the day, focus has always been the key critical element of positioning itself. And the enemy is line extension, going in too many directions, diluting what your brand is. And when companies do focus, then they can make use of that strategic enemy. And it’s creating the contrast of the peak

people can better understand because listen, people don’t have time. We’ve got to make these communications very simple, very clear so that people understand and also understand the choice. For example, you’ve got edible arrangements, which now goes by edible, which I don’t always shorten your name because edible today has a very different connotation. That’s not what they’re selling. There you go. That’s not what they’re selling.

John Jantsch (08:48.11)

I live in Colorado and it’s, you know, it’s…

Laura Ries (08:53.418)

They are selling edible fruit arrangements, which has a fantastic strategic enemy. Why buy flowers that will die, right? When you can send a delicious edible bouquet. But edible arrangements as a name is very, very strong. But again, it’s the category that really matters because people care more about the category than they do about brands. I hate to tell you.

But while they speak in brands, we think, people love a Tesla. No, they don’t love the Tesla brand. It’s the category that they dominate, which is EV electric vehicles, the category that is booming right now. And people still buy them despite what they think of Elon Musk and all of his shenanigans. But very strong brand that did absolutely do many of the things we preach about, being first in pioneering a category and only focusing on EVs, which here’s the problem.

Originally, this was a tiny market. The major automobile makers, they thought it was niche and they ignored it for many, many years. And that allowed Tesla to get in, not so much build the market initially, but build the mind of the consumer that Tesla was the car that stood for it. So, you can take advantage of the big companies are slow on these things. Another one was Red Bull. Coca-Cola ignored Red Bull for years until after 10 years, it was a hundred million dollars and they woke up and said, oops,

But when they competed late, you know, it was too late to the game. Full throttle, tab energy, all of the others they try to launch were big losers. The brand that pioneers it, particularly when they do it with a good name, a good strategy, and a strong message, you know, it gives you wings if you didn’t know.

John Jantsch (10:21.816)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:32.878)

A lot of those big companies just go out and buy the competition that’s nipping at their heels.

Laura Ries (10:38.874)

Well, that’s not a bad idea. if you’ve got the money, I mean, today, what has Coca-Cola done? They can’t launch their, they even tried Coca-Cola energy, if you could believe that. But they have made, you know, they put a stake into Monster, which is the only brand that has successfully competed against Red Bull. And today, it’s a very strong leader globally in the energy drink market. How did they do it? They didn’t copy Red Bull. They didn’t try to be better. They came at a 16 ounce can. Now, is that better? Who knows? It’s different.

John Jantsch (10:46.54)

Ha ha.

John Jantsch (11:04.28)

Yeah.

Laura Ries (11:06.81)

And it’s visually different and not only that they combined it with a great name a simple visual hammer the green claw They’ve got you know monster motocross and truck events and all sorts of things They’ve they’ve utilized that strategy to unify their anchor as to what they stand for against their competitor Red Bull But how do you compete with that? Well, the big number three today is Celsius They’re hot in the energy drink market by not going the masculine male approach as you know what?

mostly Red Bull and Monster have done, but it’s a more unisex, fitness friendly, no sugar, and they’ve taken on a very good chunk of the market by going and being different.

John Jantsch (11:49.166)

So we’re talking about big brands essentially right now, but you’ve developed a framework that is really quarter the book. Do you want to kind of walk us through some of the steps? And like, have you walked into a company and let’s put the big brands aside? You walked into a company that is kind of trying to make their way now and trying to, know, what are kind of some of the steps you would take somebody through? And again, obviously I didn’t give you a type of company or anything, but typically.

Laura Ries (12:14.186)

No, well, I mean, you’ve got tons of examples and listen, I love working with entrepreneurs. I mean, that is actually the most exciting. They have such creative new ideas and potential. And not only that, most importantly, they have the courage and the balls to really do something different, something that the big companies usually don’t have. For example, in the moist toilet paper market, the early pioneers were, know, cottonel fresh wipes, which never really went anywhere because it had a, you

It was cottonel, Kleenex, fresh wipes, something or other. They were trying to position a dual, you need two things, you need wet and dry, which never really resonated until one guy was living in a post-college apartment with a bunch of dudes eating, as he says, lots of burritos, drinking late nights, and they needed some heavy duty cleaning up in the bathroom. So on his weekly trip to Costco, he picked up the usual, baby wipes and a bunch of other stuff that the guys like to use, and he said, wait a minute,

John Jantsch (12:51.982)

Yeah. Yeah.

Laura Ries (13:12.974)

Why isn’t there a company that makes a product I want to use that’s meant for me and my guy friends and cleans up like a baby wipe does, but is also flushable and environmentally friendly? And he did that. He just pioneered that category. It’s called Dude Wipes. It has over $350 million a year, but it was just a guy with an idea. But first and foremost, he saw a problem, right? It didn’t create the category, but he said everyone is not doing it in the right way. They’re not focused and they’re not strongly

John Jantsch (13:36.034)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laura Ries (13:42.97)

calling out an enemy. I Cottonelle can’t say, you know, dry toilet paper sucks, but Dude Wipes can. Dude Wipes says, you’re wasting your time with that. You’re just smearing it around. I mean, they say all sorts of crazy things, but a very powerful message by narrowing the focus, by taking on the enemy. And, you know, going in with entrepreneurs, it is so exciting because you can really take on the big guys.

John Jantsch (13:50.03)

Right, right. Yeah

John Jantsch (14:08.835)

Yeah.

Laura Ries (14:09.058)

You don’t have to be a big guy because you leverage where they’re weak and in every strength there is always some kind of weakness. Even in Amazon, if you can believe it, a bunch of entrepreneurs launched Shopify and they said, you know, Amazon is not really serving the merchants, right? They’re all about the customer and they do such a great job on that. But they’re kind of given the short shaft to the merchant. So, know, Shopify is the merchant hero. They’re setting it up so merchants can have their own stores.

John Jantsch (14:26.7)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

Laura Ries (14:37.976)

making it totally seamless, easy to do, giving them all the tools, support they need, and they’ve been a very strong competitor to helping companies sell their goods on the internet.

John Jantsch (14:48.616)

And of course their connected network has now made them even more powerful.

Laura Ries (14:52.186)

It took time, literally it was just a bunch of guys who tried to sell their own website and said, instead of, was it surfing stuff? I can’t remember. But instead of selling this, mean, they gave that up quick and said, we’re just gonna sell the software, the backbone of this. And they added incrementally all the other things and bells and whistles that went along with it. But it’s that key one idea.

John Jantsch (14:56.77)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:07.308)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laura Ries (15:16.762)

Airbnb was the same way. mean, it was, you know, a bunch of guys living in San Francisco that said, wait a minute, you know, it hot periods of conferences, it’s impossible and very costly to get a hotel. Why don’t we put some air mattresses in our living room? We’re going to call it air bread and breakfast and rent out the room. And, you know, today they are they are taking on hotels in a big way.

John Jantsch (15:35.15)

funny.

John Jantsch (15:40.686)

Oh yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. In fact, you’re seeing some hotels actually now try to get into that business a little bit, you know, to, instead of just having their rooms, you know, actually buying houses and things to, get into that business. Yeah. Yeah.

Laura Ries (15:53.302)

Is that the right idea? Because listen, I’ve stayed in an Airbnb, I’ve stayed in a hotel, there’s advantages to hotels. I kind of like the fresh towels and the very clean sheets and the service that goes along with it. I mean, there’s no one way to do something. Instead of thinking about how can we copy Airbnb, how can we make hotels a better deal? And celebrate what is a very nice experience in a hotel.

John Jantsch (16:09.581)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:13.102)

Sure.

Yeah, yeah,

Laura Ries (16:22.66)

Here’s the other thing. The best thing you can do as a big company or when you get to that size, if you’re an entrepreneur listening, is multiple brands. Give birth to your own enemy is a better strategy. Not trying to put one brand on many things, instead having multiple brands. And you see even great examples. So Mike’s Hard Lemonade was a big, big success at the turn of the century.

John Jantsch (16:44.386)

Yep.

Laura Ries (16:46.87)

As kids were turning away, young drinking adults were turning away from beer and other things. They enjoyed the Mike’s Hard Lemonade. But as a few years went by, we realized it had just as much sugar as a Coke almost and a ton of calories and we all were cutting carbs. So what did they do? Instead of line extending Mike’s into, well, they also did that honestly, into Mike’s Light Lemonade, they launched White Claw.

John Jantsch (17:00.194)

Yeah.

Laura Ries (17:15.994)

the first hard seltzer and this is the typhoon of seltzers of billions of dollars. And listen, it doesn’t even taste very good, but it is a new category. And as a hard seltzer, that again, naming the category is incredibly important. Zima, mean, you’re as old as I am, you know it, remember Zima, they didn’t know what it was. What was it?

John Jantsch (17:16.035)

Mm.

John Jantsch (17:26.626)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:35.884)

Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do.

Laura Ries (17:41.562)

I mean, it was similar to, you know, again, what White Claw is selling, but, they didn’t quite name the category and explain to us what it is. And when we don’t know what something is, doesn’t always taste very good. And that was one of the experiences of the Zemas.

John Jantsch (17:44.77)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (17:57.72)

Yeah, that seltzer category is probably booming like beer, my craft beer was at one point.

Laura Ries (18:04.428)

Absolutely. And not only that, there’s a huge, there’s always opportunity out there, which is what makes marketing and business and entrepreneur so exciting. You think, like, I never thought there could be another water brand. I mean, how many hundreds of water brands? And then came Liquid Death. And you thought like beer, how many beer brands? But have you heard of this athletic brewing?

This is the hottest new thing. It’s beer without alcohol. What fun is that? But anyway, there’s a big trend into drinking less. And do you really want to drink a Heineken Zero or a Bud Zero? I mean, come on. But this new brand owns the category and celebrates it and says, you know, live an athletic lifestyle.

John Jantsch (18:39.918)

You

Laura Ries (18:47.466)

no hangovers. And one of the things they did as an important part of the strategy is they knew they needed credibility, that this was something that was not just non-alcoholic. mean, there was O’Doul’s and kind of other brands out there, but it was a good tasting quality beer. And so they aggressively entered it into competitions. And that drove a lot of the PR. In fact, one of the competitions, they beat beer with alcohol. And they have just a great way of talking about it.

John Jantsch (18:59.159)

Mm-hmm, right.

John Jantsch (19:05.998)

Mmm.

John Jantsch (19:11.426)

Yeah.

Laura Ries (19:16.442)

pointing out that enemy which is, know, why bother with the alcohol? Why not live for a better tomorrow?

John Jantsch (19:21.91)

Well, it’s interesting because they created a subcategory, non-alcoholic beer that tastes good, because I think the category was there’s non-alcoholic beer, right? That was the category. So if they got lumped into that category, they probably weren’t going to go anywhere. They’re not going to fight. didn’t has their brush, probably. So I think they kind of…

Laura Ries (19:29.338)

That’s right. Yeah.

Laura Ries (19:37.562)

No. Yeah, not being a line extension and not trying to look like a beer. The other thing they did that was very brilliant and visuals matter, visuals are incredibly important. Athletic only comes in cans. All of the other brands, of course they offer it, but they promote the glass because they feel it looks premium and it does.

But athletic, I mean, what’s their position? mean, athletic lifestyles, you can’t bring gas, a glass bottle on a camping trip or a boat. need the can. And the can in bright pastel colors was a distinctive difference that also communicated how different they were than all the other products.

John Jantsch (20:05.752)

Right, right, yeah.

John Jantsch (20:16.012)

Yeah. So I want to end with a, know, because I think a lot of people listening right now are getting very fired up about their who, how they’re going to go out there and create their enemy. What’s the risk of creating you call foe enemies? I mean, just kind of like making them up.

Laura Ries (20:23.322)

I hope so.

Laura Ries (20:31.802)

you can’t make them up. Of course they do. course they… No, the rivalry has to be real. But it doesn’t have to be something, for example, I’ve got a phone case, it’s called Flaunt. What’s their big difference? It’s a square case.

John Jantsch (20:33.166)

But certainly people try, right? I mean, it’s like, it’s like, here’s our rivalry, but it’s like, they really? Yeah, yeah.

Laura Ries (20:53.562)

And that’s an instantly visible difference, but they promote that as you know, they’re they’re positioning their difference, you know, what makes them great and I love a square case. It looks cool. It’s fun. I stick my iPhone in there. But yeah, that absolutely it has to be not just you know, claiming a boogeyman out there as the enemy but something that that is real. That’s a tangible problem a tangible enemy and there’s always more than ways

John Jantsch (20:53.964)

Yeah.

Laura Ries (21:18.358)

more than one way to do something. mean, sometimes you want the very best, right? A high price can be a benefit, but sometimes, you know, also the ease of and the shopping experience, for example, going to Costco. People love Costco. Even the Kirkland brand is rising, right? Because people are saying they’re making a statement and the companies focus on producing very high quality and also, you know, the ease of not over, you know, there’s only 4,000 items. It really makes it much easier to choose when there’s

John Jantsch (21:33.88)

Yeah.

Laura Ries (21:46.82)

fewer things to choose from.

John Jantsch (21:48.046)

That’s funny because, course, not every brand, not every everybody’s going to like every brand. I don’t like Costco. I think it’s a terrible shopping experience. I go in there and I can’t find anything.

Laura Ries (21:54.901)

See you.

Laura Ries (21:58.97)

Well, you know they do that on purpose because they want you to wander the aisles and see I love the discovery of it But that’s the point there is no one and here’s the problem Most companies like Kmart, right? They’re trying to appeal to everyone They want people that you know want the the bulk kind of Costco They want people that want the simple shopping or they try to be everything It’s much better to take a very narrow stance and not worry if it doesn’t appeal to everybody

John Jantsch (22:05.068)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (22:27.062)

I did love a good blue light special though. You got to admit that was amazing.

Laura Ries (22:29.018)

It was a visual idea. See, if you can give your strategy some way to visualize it, it makes it much more powerful. mean, think about duct tape. I mean, what a great way to communicate something that’s instantly understand in the mind. We know what we do with duct tape. We know how great duct tape is. It can fix anything. what a, know, using metaphors like that are a great way to do branding.

John Jantsch (22:41.112)

Right?

John Jantsch (22:47.288)

Yep. Yeah.

John Jantsch (22:55.382)

Awesome. Well, Laura, I appreciate you taking a few moments to drop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you and find out more, certainly about strategic enemy, but also your courses and the things that you do around it?

Laura Ries (23:01.274)

Absolutely. Well, of course you can visit us online at reese.com and that’s r i e s dot com. We’ve got strategicenemy.com and I’ve just launched a sub stack. Yay. Exciting newsletters. I’ve got even the Reese hotline where companies are calling in. Well, it’s fake. Don’t tell anybody, but I pretend like companies are coming in and I give them really great advice. So check out those videos, check out my book and let’s do positioning together and nail those strategic enemies.

John Jantsch (23:23.118)

You

John Jantsch (23:34.211)

Well, again, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you on these days soon out there on the road.

Laura Ries (23:38.852)

Absolutely.

Empowering Small Business with AI & Strategy

Empowering Small Business with AI & Strategy written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Sara Nay, CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and author of “Unchained.” Drawing on over 15 years of experience in every agency role—from intern to CEO—Sara explains why the traditional marketing agency model is broken for both clients and agencies. She introduces the “anti-agency” approach: a practical, strategy-first, AI-enabled model designed to help small businesses own their marketing instead of renting it. The discussion covers timeless principles, the new role of the fractional CMO, how to leverage AI for impact (not just efficiency), and the steps any business can take to reclaim control and clarity.

About the Guest

Sara Nay is the CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and author of “Unchained.” With two decades of hands-on experience, Sara is a leading voice in strategy-first marketing systems for small businesses. She has helped hundreds of entrepreneurs and agencies design sustainable, scalable growth through a blend of foundational principles and forward-thinking technology. Sara is a sought-after speaker and advocate for empowering business owners to take back ownership of their marketing.

Website: unchainedmodel.com
LinkedIn: Sara Nay

Actionable Insights

The traditional agency model struggles with client demands, scope creep, profitability, and talent retention—especially as AI transforms execution.
The “anti-agency” model empowers small businesses to stop renting their marketing and start owning it, with strategy and leadership at the center.
Timeless marketing principles (ideal client, deep messaging, strategy before tactics) are more important than ever in the AI era.
Rushing into AI tools without strategy amplifies chaos and inconsistency—start with business and marketing goals, then select and train the right tools.
Fractional CMOs offer small businesses affordable, high-level leadership, managing strategy, budget, and metrics while leveraging lean teams and AI systems.
Owning your marketing brings control, clarity, and the ability to scale—CEOs should focus on their “zone of genius” and let marketing leaders orchestrate execution.
Agencies must shift from execution services to strategic leadership and AI-empowered team enablement to remain relevant.
Every business can start reclaiming ownership by auditing team structure, clarifying partnerships, and aligning technology to strategy.
AI should be used to elevate human talent, not replace it—future-proof your team and business by identifying high-impact skills and integrating AI support.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

01:06 – Why the Traditional Agency Model is Broken
Sara shares her experience across agency roles and the pain points that inspired “Unchained.”
03:02 – Defining the Anti-Agency Model
How AI and strategy are turning the old agency/client relationship upside down.
04:59 – Timeless Marketing Principles in the Age of AI
Why ideal client profiles and deep messaging still matter most.
07:07 – The Dangers of Jumping Into AI Without Strategy
Sara explains how “amplified chaos” is the real risk for small businesses.
08:55 – The New Org Chart: Fractional CMOs and AI-Powered Teams
How small businesses can afford leadership and execution at scale.
11:05 – From Renting to Owning Your Marketing
The mindset and structural shifts required for true business growth and clarity.
14:26 – How Agencies Must Evolve to Stay Relevant
Why leadership, strategy, and AI team enablement are the future of agency services.
16:06 – Practical Steps for Taking Ownership This Week
Sara’s advice for businesses ready to move from chaos to control.
18:08 – Elevating Your Team With AI
How to future-proof your people and business by blending skills and technology.

Pulled Quotes

“Stop renting your marketing and start owning it. With the right strategy, small businesses can take back control and scale with confidence.”
— Sara Nay

“AI should be used to elevate your team—not replace them. Future-proof your business by blending technology with high-impact human skills.”
— Sara Nay

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.866)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Sara Nay. Sara is the CEO of Duct Tape Marketing, where she spent over 15 years helping small businesses build strategy-first marketing systems that actually work. Now being my daughter, Sarah has lived the small business reality from every angle as a teenager, as a team member, as a fractional CMO, and now as the CEO. In her new book,

Unchained, she makes the case that traditional agency model is broken, both for the clients and agencies and lays out a practical AI enabled strategy first approach she calls the anti-agency model. We’re going to touch on that. Permission helps small business owners stop renting their marketing and start owning it. Unchained, breaking free from broken marketing models. So Sarah, welcome to the show.

Sara Nay (00:53.858)

Thanks for having me on.

John Jantsch (00:55.778)

So you and I have been talking about marketing models for a long time. Was there a time when you kind of said, you know what, the agency model is broken and I got to create something different?

Sara Nay (01:06.455)

Yeah, I mean, as you mentioned in the introduction, I’ve been part of the agency space for about 15 years. And in that journey, I’ve moved from intern to community manager, account manager, fractional CMO for our clients among other roles. And so I’ve really been in all the different areas of the agency space. And throughout that journey, there’s definitely been times where I’ve noticed things that didn’t quite feel right in the agency space. And even further than that,

there have been several moments over the last 15 years where I’ve been burnt out and on the brink of saying, does this make sense to pursue even more, even further? And so I’ve lived a lot of challenges along the way and there’s no secret in the challenges I’ve seen. think a lot of people experience this in the agency space. And so starting on that side, on the agency side of things, there’s challenges with meeting client demands and managing scope creep and scaling and maintaining profitability and

retaining great talent and those are a lot of the things that I’ve heard from other agency owners struggling with, but I’ve also experienced it myself. Also in my roles, I’ve been on in the sales side of our business for a while now. So I’ve spoken with hundreds of small business owners who have worked with different agencies or outsourced solutions over those years. And I have heard all of their stories of

things along the lines of marketing doesn’t work or I’m paying this agency for X and I have no idea if I’m getting results or if anything’s happening with my marketing efforts. And so there’s been a lot of this going on for years in the agency space. But I think it’s becoming more more heightened now with the evolution of AI.

John Jantsch (02:49.518)

So you actually use the term anti-agency model. Now know you’re not an agency hater. so, so what makes this anti or, and not just a better agency.

Sara Nay (03:02.379)

Yeah. So the whole play with the anti-agency model, as you identified, like obviously we’re not anti-agency. We’re an agency ourselves. We have been for 31 years. We love agencies. And so I do keep, I keep explaining that because I don’t want people to think this book is against agencies, but what it’s with the anti-agency, what it’s saying is the model is broken essentially for some of the points that I had highlighted just a second ago. So it’s anti-agency model specifically.

And so the way we have been doing and functioning for years as agencies were being forced in some ways to evolve because of the evolution of AI. so previously to AI, it made sense for agencies to hold onto things like marketing, execution, content, social, SEO, paid ads, all of the execution elements. But with the evolution of AI, I believe small businesses are able to take some of that stuff in-house.

They still need strategic leadership and direction, but they now have an opportunity to stay a little bit more lean with their in-house marketing team by layering in AI systems below them to help with the heavy lifting of execution. And so that’s the whole idea of stop renting your marketing and taking back ownership of your marketing. You still need strategy. You still need direction. You still need leadership.

But now you can build a marketing department or team that is a bit leaner because they’re overseeing orchestration of marketing, which is done by AI systems.

John Jantsch (04:39.086)

So one of the things you and I talk about a lot, cause I say it all the time is I, you know, I’ve been doing this 30 years and while a lot of new shiny things have come along, the fundamentals of marketing have not really changed or what we’re here to do as marketers has not really changed that much. What timeless principles do you think from, our system? As you know, it’s still worked today.

Sara Nay (04:59.085)

Yeah. And so that’s the second really section of the book we get into the timeless after the intro and all of that, we get into the timeless principles. And so some of the things that I touch on there are things like target market, identifying your clients on a very deep level. I think that’s becoming even more and more important with the evolution of AI, because what I see is a lot of small businesses bringing in something like a chat, GBT or a clod or whatever their tool of choices. And they’ll start just like,

creating content and so it’s all over the place. It’s not consistent. It’s not on on brand. And so in your original book duct tape marketing, you talked a lot about identifying your ideal client on a deep level, understanding them emotionally, what keeps them up at night, what drives them. And so with the evolution of AI, you still need to understand your clients on a very deep level. But then if you’re going to bring in an AI tool, you then need to train the chat, you’d be to your tool of your choice that you bring in.

on that information. So when you’re creating content moving forward, you’re creating content that speaks to your ideal client on a deep level and isn’t just generic. Another timeless foundational principle is core messaging. We talk a lot about that over the years. So identifying your core message or we’ve talked a lot about talking logo as well. And so that’s really identifying what makes you unique, but also what messaging resonates with that ideal client.

That is still incredibly important today, but it’s also important to take that messaging and train your AI tools of choice on that messaging as well. So again, you’re not creating generic content, you’re creating content that speaks to your ideal clients with the messaging you’ve identified is really important. And so those foundations are still the same, but the way we’re using them is evolving a bit because of the technology that’s now available.

John Jantsch (06:48.733)

So, you know, we’ve, we’re all seeing people run into AI and just like, look what it can do, makes life faster, better, cheaper. Um, where do you think the danger of this, that like eyes wide open, you know, jump in and start using the tools? What do you think the danger of that is for many small businesses?

Sara Nay (07:07.987)

It complicates things that causes confusion. causes inconsistency. It causes noise. It amplifies the chaos that’s already there. It causes so many issues for the internal team or the team using the program, but also for the clients and prospects that you’re putting out content to as well. And so it’s causing confusion in both of those areas. And so a lot of what I encourage small businesses to do is take a step back.

John Jantsch (07:12.916)

amplifies the chaos that’s already there, right? Yeah.

Sara Nay (07:33.767)

And if you’ve been following duct tape marketing for any period of time, you’ve heard us say strategy before tactics. But it’s now strategy before tactics and technology is the conversation we’re having with clients. And so if you’re thinking about, okay, we need to be using AI tools instead of just diving into tools first, take a step back and answer some very important questions as to what’s the business actually trying to accomplish? What’s the marketing strategy look like based on that?

What’s the team strategy or what’s our current team structure look like? And then you can say, okay, what tools can help us accomplish our goals? And then once you identify what the tools are, you then need to train the tools on your strategy that you would have created to then get to the point where you’re ready to execute on them efficiently. So don’t dive into tools, take a step back, create the strategy, and then answer the question of what tools are gonna help us get from where we are today to where we’re trying to go.

John Jantsch (08:30.936)

So, you know, the fractional CMO plus concept is a big part of our model. what do you tell that small business owner that’s got kind of a smaller budget and it’s thinking, I really just need somebody to do stuff rather than like, you know, I can’t really afford or I, or maybe I’m not big enough to even think about the idea of having fractional leadership. What do you say to that business as to why they need to maybe change their mindset?

Sara Nay (08:55.403)

Yeah, I mean, think, again, I keep going back to AI, but it’s causing small business owners or small businesses an opportunity that we haven’t had before. so, you previously, let’s think of traditional marketing org chart. You would have a CMO in a company and then you would have a lot of different executors under them, essentially. So you’d have like a paid specialist, an email marketing specialist, a social, you know, all of the different channels and categories. That’s never really been feasible to small businesses because

they wouldn’t even have a budget for a CMO, let alone all the other people that are involved in that story. And so I think the best opportunity that small businesses have is right now in terms of the org chart, because you can bring in a fractional CMO. So you’re not paying a full-time salary. You’re paying a set fee every single month. That fractional CMO is then tasked with creating the overall strategy, managing the budget, owning the metrics.

overseeing all of the marketing department essentially. And then under that fractional CMO, believe instead of, I don’t know if we’re quite there yet, but the direction I believe we’re going is instead of having a specialist in all the different channels, small businesses can have marketing executors that are familiar enough in writing great copy and understanding social media, but they’re really systems oriented and technology first people.

where you can bring in AI systems below them to help them execute at a higher level than they’ve ever been before. And so now you’re getting a marketing org chart with all of these different roles that you previously probably couldn’t even think about affording as a small business.

John Jantsch (10:35.832)

So going back to the theme of renting, mean, the opposite of renting is owning. and so to a large degree, you know, what you’re describing there is kind of that path towards owning your, your marketing, you know, as a business, as opposed to maybe it wasn’t even renting. was abdicating like going here, you do it. I don’t care what you’re doing over there, but how does that change the business owners mindset in terms of.

Sara Nay (10:54.124)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:05.262)

people in terms of structure, in terms of process, if they’re actually, you know, now they’re going to have those people in their organization or they’re going to have those functions in their organization. Who manages that? How do they hire for that? Are they, are they bringing in more overhead that makes sense for their business if they’re going to start thinking that way, or is this the ultimate path to, truly scaling a business?

Sara Nay (11:16.557)

It obviously depends on the business situation, revenue size, long-term growth goals. And so there’s a lot of factors that I would need to consider to answer that specifically. But for me, if you’re a small business and you’re looking to scale up,

when you’re doing a certain level of revenue, you’ve been in business for a few years, let’s say you’ve passed the 1 million revenue mark, I think it’s time to start considering you need marketing leadership of some extent. And so when small businesses scale up to a certain point, if they haven’t looked for marketing leadership, the CEO becomes the CMO and they either have marketing experience or they learn marketing. And now it’s this necessary evil that

they’re having to spend a lot of their time on where they never wanted to become a CMO in the first place. And so if you’re scaling up and you have high growth goals, looking for someone like a fractional CMO, I think makes a lot of sense because the whole idea is as the CEO or founder, you stay in your zone of genius. You stay focused on the why behind you building the business in the first place. then you… In selling, yeah.

John Jantsch (12:34.798)

or in selling, you know, stuff that actually is going to make money for the business rather than you having to figure out how to manage the technology.

Sara Nay (12:46.121)

Exactly. And then you bring in a fractional CMO or a marketing leader of some extent that then is tasked with what you identified earlier in terms of managing team, bringing in partners or hiring full-time team, running the technology, building the systems and processes, running the budget and the metrics. so the fractional CMO is really tasked with leading the marketing department and working alongside you to help you reach the specific business goals that you would have laid out.

John Jantsch (13:15.566)

You know, if somebody, whoever you’re working with is going to bring you strategy first, you know, as the first step, it doesn’t really matter what you call that person, right? What their role is, right? I mean, it’s really more the idea of thinking strategy first, isn’t

Sara Nay (13:21.901)

Yeah.

Sara Nay (13:31.137)

Yeah, absolutely. And so we’ll throw out all different terms. I mean, we talk a lot about fractional CMO, but if that feels like too elevated of a term, know, marketing leader, marketing strategist, marketing advisor, you know, the point is what they’re doing. They’re, leading the marketing initiatives and not just being an order taker.

John Jantsch (13:51.672)

So let’s flip to agencies that are listening, because I know we have agencies listening as well. How do they have to shift their mindset to really stay relevant? mean, I think in some agency, you look at some of these agencies that are providing SEO and content and social media, that’s their package, right, of done for you services. There might be a time in the very near future where that’s just not that relevant.

Sara Nay (14:19.372)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:19.423)

or people aren’t going to be willing to pay what you need to run a profitable business. So how do agencies need to shift their mindset?

Sara Nay (14:26.705)

Yeah, and there’s been a lot of stuff coming out there that I’ve seen on LinkedIn and different articles about how many agencies are going to shut down in the next few years. I think a lot of that stuff’s hard to predict, but I do think if you just keep offering execution, it’s a race to the bottom in a lot of cases because small businesses, even if they’re not doing it that effectively yet, they are bringing in AI solutions to cut costs in certain areas. And I think that marketing execution is one of those.

areas. And so, you know, I think if agencies keep offering execution as their core services, it’s going to be very challenging in the next few years moving forward, because AI is becoming more sophisticated. So you’re basically competing against AI in that scenario versus if agencies shift their offering and they step more into this leadership role, where they’re, you know, focusing on strategy.

they’re elevating team, it can be their own team or it can be internal team, but they’re elevating humans essentially with AI systems below them. Then they’re working alongside AI versus competing against it.

John Jantsch (15:35.64)

So if I’m a small business owner listening and.

Obviously picking up and reading the book is going to be step one. But what are a couple steps towards taking this ownership mentality that somebody could start this week? If you’re stuck in the old kind of way of thinking, here are a couple things you can do this week to start changing your mindset or maybe even changing your marketing.

Sara Nay (16:06.165)

Yeah, of course. There’s two things that come to mind right off the bat. One of the first things, and I talk about this in the book as well, is the marketing strategy pyramid. We talk a lot about it at Duck Tape Marketing, but it’s really taking a step back and answering some business strategic questions first. So really analyzing what are your business goals? What are your objectives? What’s your revenue? Where are you growing towards? What are your mission, vision, values? And so really analyzing some of those things.

And then thinking through what is your marketing strategy to help you move in the right direction. And then thinking through what is your team strategy. So you have to have those two bottom layers of the pyramid first to then think about team. But, know, to the question of how can businesses take back ownership when you’re analyzing your team structure, think through like, these internal roles? Are we relying on outsourced vendors? If we’re relying on outside outsourced vendors or solutions.

Do we have clarity and confidence and control or ownership as to what they are doing or are we kind of left in the dark? I if you’re left in the dark through some of your partnerships, that’s when it’s time to analyze, does it make sense to continue on with this partnership or is there a way where we can get more ownership and control? So that’s where I would start is kind of going back to the basics there and analyzing your current structure, your current relationships, your current team.

and making sure that you have clarity in what everyone is doing.

John Jantsch (17:35.672)

So I’m going to go a little in the weeds here on AI, mainly because it’s on everybody’s mind right now. There are a lot of some of these agencies that we’re talking about are shifting their whole model to being calling themselves AI agencies, where they want to come in and show you how to put in agents and how to automated this and automated that. How do you think small businesses should be looking at?

Sara Nay (17:51.703)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:02.806)

I mean, I don’t think we have to convince them that it’s not going away, but how do you think they should be looking at getting the most out of AI as really the end to end solution or the end to end assistant at this point that it can be rather than just looking at it as, here’s how I can automate stuff and or worse yet, here’s how I can fire people and do more with less.

Sara Nay (18:08.909)

Yeah, a big part of that I think is doing an analysis of who’s currently on your team and you’re not asking the question.

How can we get more work out of them or how can we get them to move faster or be more productive? What you’re answering is how can we elevate them to make more of an impact? And so one of the exercises that we’ve done with our team fairly recently, and this is also in the book as well, is we had everyone on our team analyze what skills are they doing on a regular basis. And then we basically had them identify what are human-led skills that they should continue to focus on, things that light them up, that they love.

And then we also had them identify what skills can be AI assisted and what skills and tasks could be executed by AI. And so we went through that exercise so people could essentially analyze their roles and think about how they could future proof their careers moving forward. And so I think that’s a really great exercise for anyone listening as a business leader or for your whole entire team is you should all be thinking about how can we future proof the business as a whole.

And that’s a lot of what you and I talk about when we talk about shifting our model in a new direction. But you also need to be considering everyone on your team. How can you help them elevate with AI instead of be replaced by it? And then how can you help them continue to grow and focus on the skills that are becoming more important because of the evolution of AI?

John Jantsch (19:54.414)

talking with Sarah Ney, the author of Unchained. Sarah, I appreciate you spending a few moments to talk about Unchained. Is there a place that you’d invite people to go to find out more about the work you do, of course, but then also the new book?

Sara Nay (20:08.269)

Absolutely, so unchainedmodel.com is the book’s website, so love for you to check that out and also connect with me on LinkedIn. Again, my name is Sarah Ney.

John Jantsch (20:18.23)

Awesome, well again, I appreciate you stopping by. Hopefully we’ll see you one of these days soon out there on the

Sara Nay (20:24.589)

Thank you.

Unlocking Hidden Profits with Stacey Hylen

Unlocking Hidden Profits with Stacey Hylen written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Stacey Hylen, internationally recognized business coach, growth strategist, and author of “Hidden Profits: More Clients and Cash.” Stacey shares actionable insights on how business owners can uncover untapped revenue, raise prices with confidence, and create long-term client relationships—often without spending a dime on new marketing. The conversation covers why mindset is key, how to reposition from commodity to couture, and why small changes (like a single upsell question) can deliver massive results.

About the Guest

Stacey Hylen is a globally recognized business coach, growth strategist, and speaker who has spent over two decades helping entrepreneurs—from solo businesses to Fortune 500s—uncover hidden profits and boost performance. As a former VP for Chet Holmes International and now the author of “Hidden Profits,” Stacey is known for her practical, empowering approach to business growth.

Website: staceyhylen.com
Book: hiddenprofitbook.com

Actionable Insights

Most business owners are too close to their operations to spot hidden profit opportunities—outside perspective is powerful.
Raising prices is often the fastest path to profit, but it requires a mindset shift toward abundance and owning your expertise.
Attracting the right clients (and letting go of the wrong ones) leads to higher revenue, less price sensitivity, and more enjoyable work.
“Profit leaks” are caused by focusing on low-impact tasks and avoiding essential sales and marketing actions.
Reframing sales as service (helping, not selling) builds confidence and makes it easier to attract and close ideal clients.
Past clients are a goldmine—reactivation and “come on back” strategies can drive immediate revenue with minimal effort.
Upsells and cross-sells (“do you want fries with that?”) at the point of sale create easy, recurring profit boosts.
Every team member—not just sales—can (and should) look for opportunities to help clients and add value.
Even “commodity” businesses can reposition themselves as unique, high-value partners through better packaging, messaging, and client experience.
Small changes can have huge impact—one new question or process can increase sales by 40% or more.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

00:54 – Doubling Revenue with Hidden Profits
Stacey shares how a client reactivated past customers and tweaked pricing for dramatic growth.
02:07 – Overcoming the Fear of Raising Prices
Why mindset and confidence are essential to charging what you’re worth.
03:19 – The Power of Narrowing Your Focus
How strategic positioning and language attract the right (and repel the wrong) clients.
04:58 – Spotting and Fixing “Profit Leaks”
Why low-impact busywork and avoidance hold businesses back from real growth.
06:02 – Sales as Service, Not Selling
Why reframing the sales conversation helps business owners overcome reluctance and get referrals.
08:46 – The “Come on Back” Strategy
How one client had their best month ever by reactivating former customers—even in December.
10:30 – The $700,000 Mistake
The cost of not keeping in touch—and how a single call can recover massive lost revenue.
12:53 – The Hidden Profits Framework
Stacey outlines her step-by-step process for finding revenue you already have.
13:47 – Upsells and Cross-Sells at the Point of Sale
Simple, proven ways to increase average transaction value.
15:52 – From Commodity to Couture
How even price-driven businesses can reposition for higher profits and loyalty.
18:00 – Surprising Results with Small Changes
The story of a 48% sales increase from a single upsell question.

Pulled Quotes

“Most business owners are too close to see the hidden profits in their business. It’s about getting resourceful, not just adding resources.”
— Stacey Hylen

“Sales is service. If you’re great at what you do, you owe it to your clients to help them—and that means being confident about your value.”
— Stacey Hylen

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.55)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Stacey Hylen. She’s an international recognized business coach, growth strategist and speaker who spent over two decades helping entrepreneurs uncover untapped revenue and performance in their business. As a former vice president for Chet Holmes International, Stacey has worked with companies ranging from solo entrepreneurs to Fortune 500s. We’re going to talk about her new book.

hidden profits, more clients and cash. So welcome to the show, Stacey.

Stacey Hylen (00:35.247)

Thanks John, I’m excited to be here.

John Jantsch (00:37.696)

So you open actually the book with a story, which is always awesome. A business owner doubled their revenue without new marketing spend. Can you break down a little bit of the hidden profit you helped them find and, and maybe also like how they couldn’t spot it themselves.

Stacey Hylen (00:54.649)

Yeah, well, the thing is, is that a lot of times when you’re a business owner, you’re stuck in the day to day doing all the time. so it’s really, really hard to see the things for yourself. So the hidden profits came about from when I worked with Tony Robbins and he said during the recession, it’s not about a lack of resources. It’s about becoming more resourceful.

And so what we looked at is, all right, what are the ways that we can increase? And we looked at the different hidden profits in his business. In this case, he was able to do a come on back strategy to reactivate a bunch of the clients that, that hadn’t been in his business for a while and increase his business that way. And then we also looked at tweaking his pricing because this is in a lot of places he was under pricing what he was doing.

John Jantsch (01:45.902)

Yeah, yeah, we could probably talk the whole show about that very thing. I find that especially with service businesses. What would and you probably encountered that a lot, right? So just telling somebody they should raise their prices. Well, it make sense. It’s pretty hard for them to sometimes stomach. How do get people around that resistance that they’re normally is?

Stacey Hylen (02:07.779)

Well, it’s funny because in the book I call that that fear factor, right? The hidden profit of raising your prices because people not being able to raise prices comes from a lack mentality as opposed to abundance mentality. It also comes from not owning your expertise. And so I think one of the big challenges that, that entrepreneurs need to do is to start to own their expertise and to own the outcome that they help create for their client. And when you.

John Jantsch (02:11.746)

Yeah, right, right.

Stacey Hylen (02:37.315)

focus on what the outcome is that you create for your client, then it’s a lot easier to say, okay, this is worth charging more for, be willing to, know, sometimes it’s baby steps that we have to do, you know, that we raise the price on one particular product or service or program, and then once they get the little bit of confidence, then we, you know, step it up again and again until we get to the right spot.

John Jantsch (03:00.226)

You know, I also find a lot of that comes from them not really being very specific about who they can help. And so they attract a lot of people that don’t get the value, don’t appreciate their expertise and, consequently are very price sensitive. Would you, would you say that’s also another, like getting people to narrow their focus as part of it too?

Stacey Hylen (03:19.331)

Yeah, it’s really important. And I think part of that comes from your language when you speak to in your marketing, you know, and really honing in that strategic positioning so that you become the expert that they want to work with. And I think, you know, I had a client here yesterday for a VIP day. And one of the things that was funny is he was saying words that he wanted, you know, to attract the clients and.

None of the words he mentioned were the words in actual prospect would be searching for or looking for in a transformation. So we had to really look at that. And then we also looked at, know, who are those clients that he didn’t want and what were the warning signs? Because I think a lot of times, again, coming from a lack perspective versus an abundance perspective, that they think, it’s a lead. have to take this client. But when you have a lot of crappy clients, it sucks your energy. It sucks your time.

And it’s not a great way to grow your business. Whereas if you have one of your perfect clients that is fun to work with, is willing to invest, like that’s a great way to grow your business.

John Jantsch (04:15.278)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (04:23.244)

Yeah, it’s funny, you know, you’re in this game very long at all. You know, you can almost, I can almost talk to a client. The first thing they ask me, you know, well, if we go, you’re going to be a good client or not. You know, you get really good at sort of recognizing that perfect client behavior, don’t you?

Stacey Hylen (04:39.149)

Yeah. And also it’s, it’s, it’s willing to be pay attention to your gut when you hear that, but you’re like, Ooh, that’s not going to be a good one. And, being willing to just release them and let them go into the wild.

John Jantsch (04:44.118)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

John Jantsch (04:52.022)

You identify something as being a problem that you call profit leaks. You want to talk a little bit about what those are?

Stacey Hylen (04:58.991)

Yeah. So one of the things with the profit leaks is that people are focusing on the wrong thing in their business. They’re focusing on the minutia in their business that is not helping them create revenue. Right. And so this could be endlessly tweaking your website. could be, you know, anything that is like so much easier to do than actually do some marketing, go out there, talk to prospects, get in front of, you know, places where your perfect clients are.

John Jantsch (05:13.417)

Right

John Jantsch (05:20.204)

Mm-hmm.

Stacey Hylen (05:26.883)

So I’m sure you see that in all of your work that people just like hide out. And that’s really where a lot of those revenue leaks come because they’re not taking the action that they need to take.

John Jantsch (05:36.682)

Well, I can go a lot of directions with that. But I think that that’s a real issue. A lot of businesses, mean, a of people know how to do something. They got into a business to do it, but they didn’t really get into business to go out there and sell to, you know, actually have conversations with people or convince people as they maybe feel like it is. So how do you get people past that? Because I mean, the whole profit conversation kind of breaks down if I can’t go out there and get clients.

Stacey Hylen (06:02.691)

The thing is, that I really help my clients shift from seeing sales as selling to helping them see it as serving. And the reason why is if, if I was to ask you, what’s your favorite restaurant, you would, what’s your favorite restaurant, John? It’s easy to say, right?

John Jantsch (06:18.35)

All right, it’s Trace Greengroce in case you’re listening in Nederland, Colorado. Okay, go ahead.

Stacey Hylen (06:24.565)

Awesome. Awesome. And so you’d like, that’s easy because you think, my gosh, I’m going to help Stacey find a great place to eat while she’s in Colorado. But the thing is, is your prospects are also having problems and challenges. And if you are really good at what you do and you’re an expert at it, then you should be willing to share what you do because you’re helping solve a problem for somebody and you’re actually serving them. So I think that’s really the first step to shift into that.

that confidence and that’s where having a coach really helps is because sometimes they have, my clients have to borrow my confidence, both in selling, marketing, and also raising their prices, right? Because those are all confidence issues.

John Jantsch (06:51.02)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:56.056)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (07:02.604)

Yeah. And I would extend that to referrals too, because a lot of people, even if they have a good customer, they’re like, I’m reluctant to ask, you know, for referrals, but it’s the same thing. It’s like, if, if you’re getting like this amazing result, wouldn’t you your friend to get that? So it’s kind of the same mentality, isn’t it? So I should have asked this at the very beginning of the show. But we ought to set, we ought to talk a little bit about people’s relationship with the word profit to begin with. You know, a lot of business owners,

don’t really think about profit or heaven forbid some actually look at it as a negative thing. And so consequently, and you probably know Mike McCallewitz, my friend that’s been on the show a number of times, wrote Profit First. And you you said that a lot of business owners, all they really want to do is pay the bills and pay themselves a salary and, you know, amounts to being a job rather than building an asset. So do you find that you sometimes have to actually set the

Stacey Hylen (07:44.143)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (07:59.532)

baseline for what profit is and why it’s a good thing?

Stacey Hylen (08:03.279)

Sometimes, it depends on the client, right? But I think a lot of times what happens is, you know, the hidden profits are really revenue boosters that go direct line to bottom line profit. And that’s the difference in this book. Right, because that’s why this book has hidden profits, because there are things that…

John Jantsch (08:04.737)

Okay.

John Jantsch (08:08.088)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (08:16.108)

Yeah. Yeah. Raise your prices without raising your costs. Right.

Stacey Hylen (08:23.691)

boost your revenue, but because it doesn’t increase your cost, you’re not doing more marketing or more expense with the strategies in the book. It all goes to the bottom line profit. So it makes it much easier to boost your profit.

John Jantsch (08:26.958)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:36.398)

So if you were gonna walk into a business, and I know every business is different, but have you found there are a couple things that are like, that’s the low hanging fruit. Like here’s the first thing we’re gonna do.

Stacey Hylen (08:46.051)

Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing is, know, what do you have for past clients that are currently not doing business with you? Because those people love you, they trust you, and for the most part, you know, you were saying people are shy to do it or hesitant to do it. People are, other than dentists, are hesitant to get people to come back, right? And so.

John Jantsch (09:10.156)

Yeah,

Stacey Hylen (09:11.247)

We want to do a come on back strategy. And I had a client that I talk about in the book that she was taking one of my live hidden profit programs and it was the slowest month of the year for her. It was December. She was selling weight loss. Nobody wants to lose weight in December. It’s like time to eat your grandma’s cookies, right? So we did, she, she was an action taker and she said, I’m going to do it even though it’s December. And I was like, well, this might not be the best month for this hidden profit, but go for it.

John Jantsch (09:26.486)

Right,

Stacey Hylen (09:39.809)

She increased her sales by over 50 % in one month. She had her best month ever in her business by doing that reactivation strategy. And it’s because she actually went back to them, gave them permission to come back. And sometimes that’s the shyness there is like, you think the client is shy to come back to you because they might’ve gone off and tried another weight loss product or tried somebody else to fix their car or cut their hair or whatever it is. And you’re saying like, Hey, I’d love to have you back.

John Jantsch (09:53.816)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:01.932)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stacey Hylen (10:09.017)

come on back and that works almost every single time to really boost profits very quickly.

John Jantsch (10:15.148)

You know, it’s really interesting too, because I think most businesses feel like, they left because they weren’t getting what they wanted here or, but people leave for tons of reasons. Right. And so I think for us to assume that it was all about us is probably what holds a lot of people back.

Stacey Hylen (10:30.625)

Yeah, this one, this one is going to be a rider downer for your listeners and watchers. I have a client, we call this the $700,000 mistake. And he was coming to his coaching call and he canceled last minute. And I said, what happened? And he said, well, I had a hundred thousand dollars sale. No, normally a hundred thousand dollars sale. I would be like, let’s do our happy dance. And he said, no, Stacy, this was not a happy dance moment. And I said, well, how can a hundred thousand dollars sale not be a happy dance moment? And he said, this client.

John Jantsch (10:34.904)

Okay, let’s hear it.

John Jantsch (10:51.084)

Right, right.

Stacey Hylen (11:00.111)

was a past client that for the last seven years has been going to my competitor. And because he had not said, come on back, he lost $700,000 in sales. So I want your listeners to be thinking about that. Like really, there’s some hidden profit right there that if you just go back and talk to these past clients, you can be welcoming them back into your business very easily.

John Jantsch (11:26.412)

Well, I think he should have done the happy dance anyway, you know, take what you can get. Okay. He learned a lesson, but take what you can get.

Stacey Hylen (11:33.769)

He learned a very expensive lesson.

John Jantsch (11:38.424)

So in some cases, people left because something was too expensive, their business had changed or something. mean, so how often do you find that the hidden profits might be in saying, hey, we need to relook at all of our products or all of our offerings and repackage or repositioning. How much of creating new profit is sort of reinvigorating what you’ve already put out

Stacey Hylen (12:01.711)

Yeah, well, when I, I have a mastermind and we have retreats twice a year and that’s really like, I would say like six months because we do the retreats every six months. It kind of gives us a time to like deep dive into the business and look at, okay, what’s working, what’s changed because you’re, you know, the markets change, the economy changes. AI has brought in a lot of stuff, right? Like I, recently become a certified AI consultant. like you can look at like.

John Jantsch (12:22.892)

Right. Right.

Stacey Hylen (12:29.817)

How can you refresh your offers to meet what your clients actually want right now? How can you package them differently? How can you drive them to those offers in a way that gets more clients quickly?

John Jantsch (12:45.048)

So you do talk about the hidden profits framework in the book. Is there a way for you to give the high level, here’s the step-by-step process?

Stacey Hylen (12:53.581)

Yeah, so what we’re looking at is we’re looking at where you’re not getting the revenue coming in the door. So we talked about the reactivation, the come on back. So that’s lost clients that have already worked with you. Another great spot to look at that’s a very quick win for most people is do you want fries with that? Right? The upsell. Now, when we were kids, we went to McDonald’s and they said, do you want fries with that? And our parents were like, okay.

And now they sell the happy meal, you know, the combo meal that has everything together with it. And they say, do you want to biggie size it or do you want to supersize it? And so a lot of times people are leaving money on the table right there when people have their wallets out. So when people have their wallets out in your business, that’s an opportunity for you to say, okay, you’re signing up for this. Would you like this? The VIP level support? Would you like this?

John Jantsch (13:37.646)

Mm-hmm.

Stacey Hylen (13:47.407)

additional thing that will help them solve their problem, help them reach their goal faster. So those are two hidden profit points that are really quick to add into your business without any additional time, money, or, you know, team members to implement them.

John Jantsch (14:03.31)

Let’s say you do have a team. I work with a lot of folks that have, you know, even salespeople in organizations, which, you know, their job is to sell more stuff, right? But what you’re talking about, the reactivating customers, looking for ways to sell more to, you know, even account managers, say in marketing firms. I isn’t that something that really ought to be, or a business ought to look at that as being everybody’s job, is to start adding those things?

Stacey Hylen (14:27.725)

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Like I have a long time client. He’s been my client for over 15 years. And so what we look at every year is, okay, who are your best clients? What additional products, services, what additional things can help them solve their problems and help their clients reach their goals faster. And then his team, he has salespeople and he has operations people, they are trained to look for.

across opportunities also in that account. Like what else does this client need? What other divisions does this company have that could use our services? Who else could we meet in this company that could connect us to somebody else in the company that also needs our products or services? So absolutely, that’s something that should be constantly looked at and also rewarded, right? In terms of not just a sales team, but if you have an operations team that’s dealing with the client on a regular basis, they’re a really good person to.

John Jantsch (15:16.492)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stacey Hylen (15:24.089)

hear about the pain, to hear about the goals within the company, how they’ve changed since the person’s talked to the salesperson and bring in some additional revenue through that avenue as well.

John Jantsch (15:31.116)

Yes.

John Jantsch (15:35.852)

What about companies that feel like, and I run across them all the time, at least people have this mentality. It’s like, I’m in this commodity industry. It’s all about price. You know, there’s, there’s really nothing more we can squeeze out of this. Have you been able to help companies like that, or at least that have that mentality think differently?

Stacey Hylen (15:52.259)

That is absolutely, that is one of my favorite things to do is to help clients go from commodity to Couture. And what that means is, you know, if you are competing on price, right? I had a client in the logistics industry, they are competing on price every single day and they’re competing against a hundred million dollar, billion dollar companies that are, you know, they have hundreds of salespeople smiling and dialing all day long, sending cold emails, all of that.

John Jantsch (15:56.002)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:13.826)

Right.

Stacey Hylen (16:22.325)

And my client was a boutique company. He’s gone from six to eight figures since we’ve been working together because we positioned him as this couture brand of helping him solve a problem for his client and get a better result, not saying, Hey, can we quote you on, on shipping? Can we quote you? And so what we’ve done is we’ve positioned him as how can we help you increase the client satisfaction on the back end?

John Jantsch (16:32.557)

Mm-hmm.

Stacey Hylen (16:48.267)

of the transaction once you make a sale in your company. So logistics becomes a value add versus a cost in the business. that also, when you position yourself in that future manner, it also helps the person making that buying decision be more confident changing providers because they’re going towards something, not just like making a minute improvement in something or just cutting costs, which often means you’re getting less service, less quality.

John Jantsch (17:08.172)

Yeah, right.

John Jantsch (17:17.398)

Yeah. Well, and they also aren’t going to leave you for the next person that’s five cents cheaper, right? Because it’s like, no way. Have you had any results that that that you’ve gotten for somebody that even surprised you?

Stacey Hylen (17:22.723)

Right, absolutely, absolutely.

Stacey Hylen (17:30.847)

gosh. Well, I would say that person doing the weight loss in December was a huge one. the other one, I had a client who had an auto parts store who is, you know, had all employees that were elderly and he was complaining about them when he did his intake form and is saying like, this wasn’t working, that wasn’t working. And it was really all about team. And I said, my gosh, how am going to help him if none of his team will do anything he said?

John Jantsch (17:35.822)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:55.555)

Mm-hmm.

Stacey Hylen (18:00.271)

So I said, we’re probably gonna have to clean house. And when we got on the call, he said, well, I’m not willing to let anybody go there. We live in this small town. They’re not gonna get any other employment. They’re family members, church members. So what we did is we did a one question upsell. That was it. And that increased his sales 48 % in one month. And it was just, he was blown away. I was blown away because he had such a hard, you know,

John Jantsch (18:09.347)

Hehehe.

Stacey Hylen (18:29.039)

hill to climb with his employees to actually do something? Just one question at a 48 % increase.

John Jantsch (18:35.278)

You and that’s a great lesson too, because sometimes we try to do all these things, right? At one time, and it just kind of overwhelms everybody. Just having that one thing was easy for people to do. And then they probably, when they started seeing success, they probably got a little jazzed in.

Stacey Hylen (18:50.711)

Yeah, yeah, because it’s when you get a yes and people are happy, then you want to have more of that. Right. And also the employees had the employer being really happy too, which created goodwill and helped the company culture as well.

John Jantsch (18:53.419)

you

John Jantsch (19:05.774)

Well, Stacey, I appreciate you taking a moment to drop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Where would you invite people to connect with you, find out more about your work, and obviously pick up a copy of Hidden Profits?

Stacey Hylen (19:14.807)

Yeah, thanks for asking. This has been great. I can be found at staceyhyland.com and I’m Stacey Hyland everywhere on the internet. And then if you want to get on the early bird list for the book, you go to hiddenprofitbook.com and we’re going to have a bunch of resources there. I have some AI stuff that’s kind of behind the scenes that I’ve, you know, plugged in with the hidden profits. So that’s going to be great. So go to hiddenprofitbook.com to get that as well.

John Jantsch (19:42.24)

Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you dropping by and hopefully we’ll run into you on these days out there on the road.

Stacey Hylen (19:46.932)

Thanks John, have a great day.

The Long-Haul Leader with Chris Ducker

The Long-Haul Leader with Chris Ducker written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Chris Ducker, serial entrepreneur, bestselling author, and founder of Youpreneur. Chris shares lessons from his new book, “The Long-Haul Leader: How to Lead and Win in the Long Game of Business,” and explains why sustainable success requires patience, consistency, self-care, and transparency. The conversation covers the power of personal “operating systems,” the value of creative hobbies, the importance of prioritizing recovery, and how vulnerability and leading out loud foster loyalty and real connection in business and life.

About the Guest

Chris Ducker is a serial entrepreneur, bestselling author, and founder of Youpreneur, a global personal brand business education company. Recognized for his candid, actionable advice on entrepreneurship and personal brand leadership, Chris has helped countless business owners scale and lead for the long haul. His books, “Rise of the Youpreneur” and “The Long-Haul Leader,” offer roadmaps for building sustainable businesses—and lives—rooted in clarity, community, and authenticity.

Website: chrisducker.com
Book: longhaulleader.com

Actionable Insights

Short-term wins are loud, but true impact “whispers until it starts roaring”—sustainable success is built on patience, consistency, and showing up for the long haul.
“Hustle” is a season, not a lifestyle. Lasting growth comes from intentional focus, recovery, and doing unflashy work behind the scenes.
The Long-Haul Leader framework is built on four pillars: personal mastery, hobbies/pastimes, love/relationships, and impactful work—with balance and alignment at the core.
Creative hobbies and prioritizing recovery boost productivity and satisfaction—entrepreneurs with hobbies are more successful at work.
Measuring progress in these areas means tracking not just KPIs, but also personal growth, creative time, and meaningful relationships.
Transparency and “leading out loud” build trust—sharing both wins and struggles creates stronger teams and connections.
Reinvention is essential. Burnout and setbacks are part of the journey; prioritizing health, joy, and the right people is key to bouncing back.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

01:22 – The Dangers of Short-Termism and the Power of the Long Game
Chris explains how patience and consistency outlast hustle culture for real business impact.
05:02 – Focus Over Followers
Why clarity, intention, and saying “no” matter more than chasing every shiny object or platform.
07:28 – The Operating System for Long-Haul Leadership
Chris introduces his four-part framework: personal mastery, hobbies, relationships, and impactful work.
11:39 – Hobbies and Recovery Aren’t Optional
Research (and Chris’s own experience) show creative hobbies and recovery time dramatically improve performance.
16:38 – The Power of Analog and Using Your Hands
How woodworking, painting, and hands-on hobbies can boost mental clarity and satisfaction.
17:06 – Burnout and Reinvention
Chris shares his own story of hitting rock bottom, recovering, and reshaping his business and life.
20:07 – Leading Out Loud: The Value of Vulnerability
Why openness, transparency, and sharing the journey matter for modern leadership.
22:36 – Writing the Book as Memoir, Roadmap, and Call to Action
Chris describes how personal stories and practical frameworks combine to help others lead for the long haul.

Pulled Quotes

“Short-term wins are loud. Long-term impact whispers—until it starts roaring.”
— Chris Ducker

“Hustle is a season, not a lifestyle. Prioritizing recovery and the right people is the secret to lasting success.”
— Chris Ducker

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.898)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Chris Ducker. He’s a serial entrepreneur, bestselling author and founder of Youpnur, a global personal brand business education company. He’s recognized for his candid actionable advice on entrepreneurship, business growth and personal brand leadership. He’s been on this show before with a couple of his other books, For Sure Rise of the Youpnur, I think.

shaped countless business owners to scale and lead. And we’re going to talk about his latest book, The Long-Haul Leader, How to Lead and Win in the Long Game of Business. So Chris, welcome to the show.

@ChrisDucker (00:39.814)

Yeah, thanks for having me back, John. Appreciate it.

John Jantsch (00:41.666)

So serial entrepreneur, know, my mind goes to like Frosted Flakes or something, is there a favorite serial in the UK that we don’t have over here maybe?

@ChrisDucker (00:53.01)

Boy, I don’t know. That’s a really good question to kick off the chat. I’m pretty sure that we’ve got everything you’ve got and you’ve probably got about another gazillion other serials that we don’t have, I would think.

John Jantsch (01:06.359)

You’ve certainly got something dry and drier and tastelesser.

@ChrisDucker (01:11.784)

I was going say we generally don’t do cereal in our house. I think the last time I had a bowl of cereal, was probably something bland and boring like cornflakes or something like that.

John Jantsch (01:22.094)

Okay. All right. So in the book, you take on something you call short-termism, which I guess is obviously the opposite of the long haul. Was there a time in your business? mean, a lot of authors are really just writing like from the insights they’ve had over, you know, growing their own businesses. When did you realize the long game? Was it, did you have to be in the long game to realize the long game’s value?

@ChrisDucker (01:39.335)

Yep.

@ChrisDucker (01:50.024)

That’s a question. I think that I probably felt it initially, probably maybe 10 years or so ago when we opened up the doors to Uprenur. At that point, I’d already had two other businesses that were both doing very, very well indeed. Funnily enough, both those businesses we’ve now exited and sold over recent years. So the only business that we run now day to day is Uprenur.

And we’ve niched that down now to serve business authors and help them not only write and market their books and launch their books, but also to build businesses around their books and the frameworks that live within them. And that’s going really, really well right now as well. So I believe that when we opened up the doors to Upino, there was a lot of kind of membership sites out there teaching you how to market and your business and grow your business, become a creator and all that kind of stuff. But for me,

John Jantsch (02:29.976)

Mm-hmm.

@ChrisDucker (02:48.584)

I remember saying, this is going to be probably like the next 10, 15 years of my life, I think. Like I felt really quite positive and confident on that fact. And the the real reason here is that the other factor here is I think that ultimately, particularly as an entrepreneur, like we’re kind of conditioned to go after those quick wins, right? Those fast wins, those shiny object wins, as I call them, but

John Jantsch (03:09.432)

Mm-hmm.

@ChrisDucker (03:13.85)

If you think about how short-term wins are quite loud, you go for something, you grab them, you celebrate it in a loud way, the way I look at long-term impact is really it whispers and whispers and whispers until it starts roaring. I’m all about the roar at this point. The real game should be patience and consistency and showing up even when it’s not sexy, doing the un…

the unflashy work behind the scenes and all that kind of stuff. And so, yeah, I think there’s certainly something to be said for hustle, right? And hustle culture. There’s nothing wrong with a little hustle every now and then. And you will hustle anyway, just naturally by being a business owner, a deadline, a project that you want to get out the door by a certain date or something along those lines. But generally speaking, it’s not sustainable to be in that hustle mindset for too long. In fact, hustle, if you think about it, is a season.

It’s not a lifestyle. I talk about that in the book, obviously.

John Jantsch (04:10.254)

Yeah. But help me a little bit. mean, I get this. I’ve been doing this 30 years, you know, so I get, you know, what happens is you, you develop muscles and you develop memory and that helps you with the long game. Like every year in our business, February is a terrible month. And it must have something to do with, you know, the cycle of, of, know, what people do in business. You know, it’s like everybody wants to close the year and, you know, big time. And then there’s like kind of this exhale.

And so younger members of my team are like, leads are way down, know, business is way down. What are we going to do? And I’m like, it’s always this way. You know, just, just wait for March. It’ll be fine. You know, but, that until you’ve been through it 10 times, you know, it’s hard to have that mindset. So how does a, how does a younger entrepreneur in this case, develop that long-term mindset without kind of the, benefit of, you hindsight.

@ChrisDucker (04:45.869)

Yeah. Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (05:02.982)

Yeah, I think, you know, particularly the younger generation, my daughter, Chloe, as I know your daughter’s with your company, Chloe’s been with us now for six years. She’s our COO at Upanose. She’s amazing, but she’s also quite kind of KPI and kind of target focused and she wants to kind of chase down the next goal quite a bit. And I, you know, I always say that first and foremost, leadership in general, leading the game in whatever niche you’re in is not about being

John Jantsch (05:17.474)

Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (05:32.11)

everywhere. Genuinely, it’s not. It’s about being where it really matters. So you don’t have to worry about being on every platform, chasing down every goal, every verification badge that you can get and all that kind of stuff. It’s about choosing your presence with intention and working from a place of non-insecurity or no insecurity. The other thing is that

John Jantsch (05:33.409)

Mm-hmm.

@ChrisDucker (05:59.654)

I kind of like the idea. Like I’ve been saying this a lot recently, particularly to younger people. My son is 16 now and he’s, he’s a big music fan and he’s kind of creating his own music and he’s putting it up on Spotify and YouTube and all these kinds of places. And he gets like really, that I just hit 200 subscribers and you know, it just hit a thousand streams and all this kind of stuff. And I keep saying, look, you don’t need more followers. You don’t need more followers. You just need more focus, right? You’ve got to like focus on the clarity.

Don’t worry about constant content out, know, da, da, da, da, da, know, every available opportunity, like build that focus, knock out something really good on a weekly or a monthly basis. And the momentum will follow plain and simple. And so I think overall, the question is, yes, I can respect people want quick wins and they want to chase down those, those goals, but ultimately any kind of suggest or rather any kind of success that kind of, or suggest that you’re, you know,

have bad health because of it or family or start doing it from a place of non-committal joy. That’s pure sacrifice right there. That’s not success. I want my kids to be successful just like I want all my clients to be successful as well.

John Jantsch (07:13.518)

Well, before we get too much further in the show, the book is built, I mean, as all good books, you give people a, it’s not just a concept, here’s a framework. Here’s actually the steps to do it. So you want to kind of as high level as you want to go unpack what the steps are in the framework.

@ChrisDucker (07:22.482)

Yep.

@ChrisDucker (07:28.456)

Yeah. So when I first started writing the book, so this all came about out of 2021, we were in the middle of pandemic. I had a burnout, a pretty bad burnout. I was actually diagnosed with anxiety, depression, which I didn’t see coming at all. And I had phase three adrenal failure, which basically meant that my adrenal glands, which are two little glands that sit on top of your kidneys, they create cortisol, which is your stress hormone, right?

They flatlined, they weren’t creating any cortisol, so I couldn’t handle stress. And the more stress it got, the worse it got and so on and so on. So I had to take a period of time off and kind of recoup and relook at things. And I noticed when I was writing notes down, and I was doing this mostly for me at this point, not for the book, but whenever I was writing notes down or listening to a podcast or watching a video or whatever it was, talking to somebody, I noticed that the…

The notes I was taking, the things I was taking away from these discussions kept landing in four very, very distinct buckets. And they were hobbies and pastimes, which was a big one out of left field. It didn’t see that coming at all. It was love and relationships. It was personal mastery, so upgrading yourself, et cetera. And then the work that you do, right? And so I sat down and I kind of…

worked through this and looked at how we could put this into a framework when we actually started planning the book. And that’s what we did. We basically put it into this four step, if you imagine a bit of a Venn diagram, it’s the only image in the entire book. There’s one image in the whole book and this is it. And we’ve called it the long haul leader life OS or operating system. Because my mindset was, well, if our phones have got an OS, our computers have got an OS, why can’t we have an OS as well?

And so if you imagine where personal mastery and hobbies and pastimes kind of overlap, the time that we spend doing those things represents the balance that we have between our self-improvement and obviously the activities that we enjoy doing. Where hobbies and relationships and love clash, memories, right, the actual memories that we create, they reflect those meaningful

John Jantsch (09:26.488)

Mm.

@ChrisDucker (09:42.212)

experiences that we create, right, while we’re pursuing these passions and nurturing these relationships and whatnot. And then going further, where love and relationships and the work that we do, or impactful work, as I talk about it in the book, where those actually overlap, then what we’re talking about here is like, showing how meaningful work ultimately enables personal freedom, but also strengthens the relationships both at work and away from work as well. And then finally,

the personal mastery side of things and how that clashes and overlaps with the work that we do. This kind of like excites me a lot is it all comes down to the clients and they reflect the value and the influence that we generate from the people that we work with and how we apply our own expertise into our work. it’s a business book. And it’s interesting with my publisher, we have a pretty long drawn out discussion over like, how do we position this? Is it a leadership book? Is it a self-help book?

John Jantsch (10:36.536)

Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (10:40.186)

Is it personal development? it business? We ended up sticking it into a leadership category, but ultimately it’s a little bit of all of those things. And I’m kind of joking a little bit when I talk to friends about it, saying when it’s kind of part memoir, part roadmap, and that’s kind of where we’re going.

John Jantsch (10:56.142)

Well, I’ve always said that I think entrepreneurship is probably the ultimate personal development. Yeah, I mean, so, I mean, I think you could rightly call personal development or self-help even because I mean, regardless if you’re running a business, mean, almost everybody has those four areas at some level in their life, even if they’re working for a company.

@ChrisDucker (11:04.04)

it totally is. If you want to do it right.

@ChrisDucker (11:21.01)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:24.758)

All good frameworks come with a way to measure. Are we making progress? Are we setting the right priorities? How do you suggest, especially when you start getting into things like hobbies, as you’ve mentioned, mean, how do you measure like, I doing it right?

@ChrisDucker (11:39.27)

Yeah, the hobbies thing, like I said, came out of left field. I didn’t see this one coming. I, through the research that we did through the book, the people that were interviewed for the book and things like that, it was pretty apparent to me that those entrepreneurs, very specifically entrepreneurs, as well as C-suite executives and things like that, but mostly entrepreneurs that we talked to, those that had hobbies were a heck of a lot productive and more successful in their work compared to people that did not have hobbies.

John Jantsch (11:42.445)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:46.072)

John Jantsch (12:00.056)

Thanks.

@ChrisDucker (12:09.16)

I started looking into this even further and I found that creative hobbies, very specifically things like painting or anything to do with music and that kind of stuff. I’m a watercolour, nature watercolour. Yeah. And I also do bonsai as well, which is quite creative as well. Got to keep the things alive first and foremost. So the horticulture side of things comes in the play first. But yeah, so what we found with the creative hobbies was really interesting. So

John Jantsch (12:10.958)

Okay.

John Jantsch (12:16.426)

Mm-hmm. And I think you do painting, don’t you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

John Jantsch (12:29.069)

Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (12:39.036)

I went down a rabbit hole and I started looking at like, there any famous people that are like in corporate America, corporate world who have got like creative hobbies? There’s one guy we found, David Solomon, who is the CEO of Goldman Sachs. David Solomon is also known as DJ D Sol. And he is one of the most sought after dance DJs in America. Everything he makes, he gives to charity because he doesn’t need the money, obviously.

John Jantsch (12:45.26)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:00.608)

funny.

@ChrisDucker (13:08.232)

But when you look at the statistic, and this came out of a Forbes survey, I believe, that if you engage in a creative hobby as an entrepreneur or a high level executive for a minimum of two hours a week, on average, you’re looking at about a 30 % boost on your performance at work, which is pretty telling. So the overall arching message here is go get a hobby and make it a creative one, ultimately.

John Jantsch (13:29.154)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:35.618)

I mean, did the research suggest why that is though? I mean, what does it rewire your brain? Is it like give you something else to think about? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

@ChrisDucker (13:39.24)

I think it comes down to prioritizing recovery fundamentally. It’s prioritizing recovery. And that is what I’ve personally seen as well in me stepping away from work more often. The work that I do now, Monday, because I don’t work Fridays, I haven’t worked Fridays for many, years. Monday to Friday, I work 10 a.m. to 4 p.m.

So it’s not a lot of time quote unquote in the office, but I am more productive than I ever have been. And I go out on nature walks almost every day. I’m very blessed to live in the countryside here in England. So I’m out and about on nature and everything pretty regularly become a little bit of a birdwatcher. Actually, I’m the guy walking around with a big lens now in the morning, just in case something cool pops out of a bush somewhere. But on a very serious note, have noticed unreservedly noticed that

John Jantsch (14:21.048)

Mm-hmm.

@ChrisDucker (14:32.912)

I feel more confident in the work that I’m doing. I get more done. I’m hitting my KPIs. My to-do lists disappear almost on a daily, if not definitely a weekly basis. And my team started the follow suit as well. So we’re now a no work Friday company. And everybody loves that, obviously, a four day work week. And there is just something about prioritizing your recovery that allows you to become better at what you do at work.

John Jantsch (14:58.03)

I wonder sometimes too, if people like us that have their hands on a keyboard a lot of days and we’re staring into virtual cameras. I wonder if there’s also something, if we want to go down another rabbit hole to doing a hobby that uses your hands, that is analog, that really gets you away from a computer screen completely. I actually enjoy woodworking. I build furniture and things. I always say that all the time. I mean, there’s something.

about holding this thing that used to be alive, you know, this tree that used to be alive. And I think there is something physical as well as mental about that.

@ChrisDucker (15:37.224)

I went to a conference, fair. was the Global Bird Fair just last weekend. I’ll show you something on camera here. So if you’re listening on audio, sorry, you’re going to miss this. But I bought this. This is a little nut hatch. Yeah. And I paid, think probably the equivalent of about $90 US for it. But I didn’t necessarily buy it because I wanted this to sit on my desk, although it does look pretty cool.

John Jantsch (15:49.513)

yeah, yeah, a little carved nut touch, yeah.

@ChrisDucker (16:06.128)

I bought it because after talking with the sculptor for 30 minutes, I was invested in the journey. I was invested in what he was all about. This guy was retired, mid seventies, does about five hours a day in his workshop, pretty much seven days a week. Loves what he does and travels the country selling his woodwork and making a little money after retirement. But it was the joy.

John Jantsch (16:13.037)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (16:23.042)

Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (16:32.196)

in his face and his words when he spoke about doing what he did and what he loved. And there’s something to be said for that, you know?

John Jantsch (16:32.227)

haha

John Jantsch (16:38.798)

Yeah, 100%. Well, we could do a whole nother show on this. We better get back to another topic in the book that you cover a lot. And again, you use yourself, I think of stories of reinvention. there a particularly painful, people love painful stories, or is there a particularly painful one or maybe something that you got through because of maybe taking this long haul approach?

@ChrisDucker (16:43.549)

@ChrisDucker (17:06.408)

Well, I mean, it’s the burnout of 2021. know, that was, it was interesting because that year we had a phenomenal year business-wise. We made a whole bunch of money. We served probably well over 300 people within our UPINR programs, maybe even a little more actually. It was just a great year and all the work I was doing, like genuinely John, like I was loving it. Loving the work.

John Jantsch (17:08.492)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

@ChrisDucker (17:32.636)

love the people we’re working with, love doing the track, you know, everything that we were doing to kind of like, you know, turn up and train people and all the rest of it. was just a great year, but little did I know deep down, I was just wearing myself out further and further and further and further. And when you hit a rock bottom, like, like if you’d have asked me five, like seven, eight years ago, do you ever think you’ll be treated like clinically with drugs for depression, Chris? I would have called you mad, mad. Yeah. There I was.

John Jantsch (17:35.534)

you

John Jantsch (17:56.407)

Mmm, yeah.

@ChrisDucker (18:01.786)

on antidepressants for 18 months to bounce back from it. So it was very much a fish out of water situation for me. I didn’t really feel it coming all that much. And when it hit me, it hit me really, really, really hard. And I did what most kind of quite addictive personality type people do. And I kind of went all in on it. And I, you know, I went down, I went down the nutrition route, the

the whole kind of biohacking route. did a whole bunch of blood work. I started wearing a wearable to track everything from sleep and recovery and the heart rate and all the rest of it. know, red light therapy, cold plunges, saunas, PT sessions every other day, all that stuff. Because I’m like, I need to get better. Like I can’t, you know, yes, I can afford to take six months off, but my business can’t allow me to take six months off like this.

John Jantsch (18:31.97)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (18:49.933)

Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (18:57.84)

And so it was really, really, really tough. But the things that I talk about in the book are real. Double downing on things like recovering and enjoying hobbies more, spending more time with the people that you love and you respect and want to be around a lot more, focusing on learning new things as well and understanding that in order to lead, you have to continue to learn. You have to. And then really just like the…

focus of working with the right people. That was the big change that I made coming back out from it was that I was done working with the wrong type of people. When I started looking at things a lot more granularly, I realized, that guy’s a pain in the butt to deal with. This group I don’t want to work with anymore and so on so on and so on. And we fired a whole bunch of clients, hired a whole bunch of new ones and rejigged a whole bunch of different stuff that we were doing program-wise, messaging-wise.

John Jantsch (19:54.307)

Mm-hmm.

@ChrisDucker (19:54.812)

marketing language wise, everything. So that was the big, you know, the kind of the big painful story that now I’m happy to say is, you know, we’re in a much better spot than we’ve ever been.

John Jantsch (20:07.374)

So one of the things that I think this long haul approach is, and you talk about it in the book, it takes a lot of transparency. people realize that you’re in the long haul if you’re, I think you even call it leading out loud. You share the good things, you share the bad things, you share where we’re going, get everybody on the same page. How, especially for a leader, that that might feel like, wait, we don’t do that, do we?

We don’t share the books. don’t, you know, I mean, how do you get somebody to realize the value in doing that?

@ChrisDucker (20:34.279)

Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (20:40.882)

Here’s the thing, I didn’t do it either. I didn’t do it. Now, I didn’t do it mostly because I’m a stupid man and we have idiot brains, you know, most of us, but I mean, I think some of it was down to pride. You know, I’m the patriarch of my family, what, four children and an amazing family and they look up to me for pretty much everything. And I love that most days, right? And…

think part of it was that. The other part very clearly was business because people were coming to me to know how to build their business with balance and their business with profitability and purpose built in. And here I am burning out like there’s something broken here and I can’t let them know that I’m going through this. So I had to kind of almost power through it in a way. And actually it was last year when we were hanging out in Nashville.

John Jantsch (21:33.144)

Yep. Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (21:39.11)

with each other. was sitting down when our time together had finished and myself and my buddy Pat Flynn were hanging out. he and our families are very, very close families. We spent a lot of time with each other. And I hadn’t even told him. And we’re talking three years after the fact, after I was diagnosed and put on meds and all the rest of it. And when I was telling him about it, finally face to face properly that we hadn’t seen each other since the pandemic, he started tearing up and he was just like,

John Jantsch (21:53.806)

Hmm. Hmm.

@ChrisDucker (22:08.448)

believe you went through all this without telling me. Like it’s awesome that you’re on the other side of it, but like, bro, you should have told me kind of thing. know, like this is messed up. We’re supposed to be friends. So I kept it in, John, kept it all in for those two main reasons. And I’ve hated myself for it. And when I started writing the book, really got into it at around the beginning of last year, it wrapped up. We wrapped the editing up in around September last year.

John Jantsch (22:10.638)

Yes.

John Jantsch (22:20.876)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

@ChrisDucker (22:36.444)

But when I really got into the writing, was like, I can go two ways here. I can continue to kind of put a bit of a cloak and smoke and mirror style here in place and kind of just skate around the edges. Or I can really open the kimono up and just, you know, just, just, just be super vulnerable and, and just give it all, just put it all out there. And which is, that’s what I decided to do.

And the folks that I’ve spoken to about the book, are half a dozen or so folks that had like an advanced PDF version a few months back before we finalized everything. They were like, man, this is like, the fact that you’re doing this is huge because people in our industry just don’t do this. This has the opportunity of genuinely, like, hopefully changing some lives, like for real, not just business lives, but like lives, lives. And so I’m glad I made the decision to be a little bit more open about it all.

John Jantsch (23:30.222)

Well, awesome. Chris, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Anywhere you want to invite people to learn more about you, your work, obviously the long haul leader.

@ChrisDucker (23:38.728)

Yeah, I mean, if anybody does want to read the book, they can preorder it at longhaulleader.com. The official publication date is September 2. And if they preorder before that date, just send us a copy of your receipt. We’ll give you a load of bonuses. All the info is on that page. And if they want to connect on me, just chrisducker.com. Nice and easy.

John Jantsch (23:57.198)

Again, appreciate you dropping by and I look forward to seeing you in Nashville soon.

@ChrisDucker (24:03.91)

Yeah, right back at you, my friend.

John Jantsch (24:05.688)

Take care.

Marketing That Connects and Converts

Marketing That Connects and Converts written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Talia Wolf, internationally recognized conversion optimization expert, keynote speaker, and founder of GetUplift. Talia shares insights from her new book, “Emotional Targeting: When Hearts Boost Sales, Own the Market,” and explains how brands can dramatically improve conversions by understanding and appealing to what customers truly feel and need. The conversation covers the art and science of emotional targeting, how to move beyond features to customer outcomes, and why authentic, emotion-driven marketing is the new CRO superpower.

About the Guest

Talia Wolf is the founder of GetUplift, an industry-leading conversion rate optimization (CRO) agency. A pioneer of emotional targeting and customer-centric marketing, Talia has helped brands worldwide boost conversions through empathy-driven messaging and design. She’s a sought-after keynote speaker, author, and educator dedicated to helping marketers use emotion to create better customer experiences and real business growth.

Website: getuplift.co
Book: taliawolf.com/book
LinkedIn: Talia Wolf

Actionable Insights

Emotional targeting means designing websites and funnels that address people’s real feelings and needs—because all buying decisions are emotional.
Most brands focus on features, pricing, and technology, but true differentiation comes from showing customers you understand their unique pains and desired outcomes.
Emotional research involves qualitative interviews, surveys, review mining, social listening, and competitor analysis to uncover what truly matters to customers.
Effective emotional targeting is never manipulative—it’s about meeting people where they already are emotionally and helping them solve real problems.
The four-step emotional targeting framework: Conduct meaningful customer research, synthesize findings into actionable insights, audit your website for emotional resonance, and run strategic, hypothesis-driven experiments (not just button tests).
A/B testing is powerful but must be rooted in customer research and hypotheses about what truly moves people—not random guesses or copying competitors.
AI can power deep analysis of customer data and reviews, but strong insights come from asking the right questions and looking for emotional themes.
Becoming an “emotional detective” gives marketers the tools to optimize every page, message, and customer interaction for real impact.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

00:48 – Defining Emotional Targeting
Talia explains how emotion drives decision-making and why CRO needs to go beyond features.
03:56 – Why Personas Don’t Tell the Whole Story
The shift from demographic segments to shared pains, needs, and emotional triggers.
05:36 – Manipulation vs. Authentic Emotional Targeting
Talia clarifies why true emotional targeting is not about fear or pressure tactics, but empathy.
07:37 – Speaking Directly to Your Ideal Customer
How Teamwork and other brands use emotional targeting to win customer loyalty.
09:43 – Addressing the Real Pain
Why acknowledging challenges (like migration or complexity) can build trust and drive conversions.
11:09 – The Four-Step Emotional Targeting Framework
Research, synthesis, auditing, and meaningful experimentation for CRO success.
14:25 – Using AI for Emotional Insights
How AI and data analysis can help surface the true voice of the customer.
16:49 – The Realities of A/B Testing
Why most tests fail—and how emotion-based hypotheses create learning and impact.
19:41 – Becoming an Emotional Detective
Talia’s call to action for marketers to dig deeper into customer feelings and motivations.

Pulled Quotes

“Emotional targeting is not manipulative. It’s about meeting people where they already are emotionally and helping them solve real problems.”
— Talia Wolf

“If you can identify the real why behind the purchase, there’s no stopping you.”
— Talia Wolf

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.767)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Talia Wolf. She’s an internationally recognized conversion optimization expert keynote speaker and founder of GetUplift, a leading CRO agency. Known for her pioneering work in emotional targeting and customer-centric marketing, Talia helps brands around the world dramatically improve conversions by focusing on what their customers truly feel and need.

We’re gonna talk about our latest book, Emotional Targeting. When hearts boost sales, own the market. So, Talia, welcome to the show.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (00:37.88)

Thank you for having me, I’m excited.

John Jantsch (00:40.499)

So let’s just define, because I imagine people would have lots of definitions for like, what is emotional targeting?

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (00:48.436)

Well, emotional targeting is the art of creating websites and funnels that appeal and address to people’s emotions. I run a conversion optimization agency and my role is to help brands increase conversions. And the emotional targeting framework is what I developed to help companies increase conversions using emotion.

because people make decisions based on emotion.

John Jantsch (01:19.125)

So let’s try to make it even more tangible. you, can you walk through a time when you, know, the typical sort of feature first, you know, web page that, you know, here’s all of our stuff and what it does. can, can you kind of walk through somebody that you were called in? You could see that was hurting their conversions and then you got them to change their language and create a better outcome.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (01:41.142)

Yeah, so we’ve done this with hundreds of brands really, but the go-to is really how we essentially see that most websites are very, very focused on pricing, features, technology, we’re powered by AI, know, that stuff, and kind of forgetting the, right, whatever, the only one platform for X or powered by AI or we’re the number one platform for something else.

John Jantsch (01:59.059)

We’re gluten free, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (02:10.826)

So everyone sounds the same and looks the same and done this with multiple companies from Strata, Identity Orchestration to Teamwork, which is a project management solution to also e-commerce sites and really a lot of different types of companies. Normally what happens is one notice that there is a very big kind of focus on highlighting the technology and the pricing. And what we’ve forgotten is that there’s people behind the screens that

are making decisions that aren’t just about integrations and the technology behind it. So what we do is we run emotional targeting research to identify why people really buy from them. So once they’ve checked the pricing and it’s like in their category and the integrations all work and that they have all the features that they made in their little shopping list, how do they make a decision? What matters to them?

How do they feel right now? What are they struggling with? What pains do they have? And how do they want to feel after finding a solution? And we map those all out onto the customer journey, and we run experiments to see if different messaging, different design, different UX can help increase conversions when we make it more customer focused about their results.

John Jantsch (03:30.207)

So, know, traditional marketing is like we have personas and we have segments and we have demographics and psychographics of our clients. you know, I think increasingly people are discovering that their best clients don’t all like fit into a persona. mean, they’re, they have a need or a problem or a pain. They may look completely different, right? So how do, how do you kind of zero in then on, on what the emotional triggers, can I use that word triggers are?

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (03:56.94)

Yeah. So I love that differentiation because, you know, we’ve been told for decades that we need to be data driven and data driven means knowing personas like their segmentation, their agenda, location, the browsers that they’re using, the devices, their age. So we kind of quantify people into segments. And then it’s really, really hard to actually write copy or choose images or know what to even say to people to convert.

But when you start zeroing in on the pains, we actually notice that most people, no matter if they’re a 70 year old man in Nebraska or a 15 year old kid from the UK, they’re all kind of experiencing the same emotional issues and they have the same pains and hesitations and concerns and they want to feel certain ways. So the way that we go about it is that we conduct research and the research is qualitative research.

which means we conduct interviews on customers. We do surveys both on customers and on visitors. And we also do something called review mining and social listening, and we do an emotional competitor analysis. So essentially we are listening to the conversations that are happening on Reddit, on LinkedIn, on Quora. We are mining through all the reviews that your competitors are getting or that books.

that are trying to solve the same thing as your product or your service are doing. And we’re listening to how people describe their problems and their issues and what’s keeping them up at night.

John Jantsch (05:36.159)

So how do you balance the fact that some emotional targeting is actually manipulative? It’s like, understand that you’re really afraid of this thing, so I’m going to make you more afraid, and that’s going to get you to buy, or I’m going to create scarcity so that you’re worried that you won’t get it. So how much of that is manipulative? How much of that is authentic?

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (06:00.504)

Thank you so much for that question. I wanna be really, really clear. Yeah, emotional targeting is not manipulative. You’re not trying to make anyone feel anything. The whole framework is based around the idea and the fact that every decision that we make in life is based on emotion and people are coming to our websites already feeling things.

Our role and our job as marketers is to relate to them, to appeal to the emotions that they’re already feeling and help solve those problems. Anyone who is trying to manipulate people, trying to scare or fear mongering or anything is not emotional targeting. Emotional targeting is really just understanding the underlying emotions that are already there, appealing to them and creating an experience

that answers people’s questions and actually helps them.

John Jantsch (07:01.801)

Yeah. So, you, in a lot of ways that the ultimate test is you want the reader to go, you got me. I mean, would that, would that be accurate? Yeah.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (07:08.066)

Yes, and I think that’s the point because as yeah, like as I mentioned before, at the end of the day, once we’ve gone through our shopping list of the mandatory stuff, we’re left with trying to decide, okay, but how do I make a decision between product A, B and C that all look the same, all have the same features, all have the same technology and more or less the same pricing, it’s down to that emotional hook. Does this company solve the particular specific problem that people like

John Jantsch (07:16.979)

Mm-hmm.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (07:37.934)

like me have, and we’ve seen this a lot. So even with Teamwork, for example, which is a project management solution, can everyone in the world use their project management solution? Absolutely, they have an incredible product. But if you are a person, a company that serves clients, so if you face clients, if you are an agency, a consultant, if you are a creative team that serves clients and you have retainers and

projects that are client facing, Teamwork is the best product for you. And they’ve done everything in their product and in their marketing to make sure that when you are an agency owner and you land on their website, you know that Teamwork was designed for your kind of work. And you know that because they’re talking about their specific problems that agency owners and project managers and agencies and client facing teams face.

every single day, which is profitability, knowing if you’re profitable or not, knowing if Pam on accounting is actually doing her work or not. So you could just say, we have great reporting, which is what everyone does. But teamwork and the work that we’ve done with them over the years has really helped solidify the fact that when someone comes in, they can clearly see that this product was built for them for the work that they do that solves their particular issues and problems.

And I think a lot of companies are scared to do that, because you’re afraid to eliminate potential buyers. But we don’t understand that by speaking to everyone, we’re actually alienating the people that actually would buy from us, would stay with us, and would continue to buy from us.

John Jantsch (09:21.129)

You know, one of the things I really, admire is when a company admits like this part of the process is going to be hard, you know, let’s just face it. It’s, know, and they really honest about that. We recently went shopping for a new email service provider CRM and category that is like you said, I mean, line them all up and they all say the same thing. however, the company we went with.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (09:29.579)

Yeah.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (09:40.782)

Yep.

John Jantsch (09:43.589)

was the company that spent the greatest amount of time telling us how hard it is to migrate, but that they were going to be with us every step of the way. And they were not even going to charge you until we’ve migrated you. And that was the deal for us because when you look at them on the surface, they all seem to do the same thing. But our pain was, it’s a pain in the butt to switch. And that was their focus.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (10:06.476)

I love that and I think the fact that they recognize that because I talk a lot in my book about the unconscious and the subconscious stuff. So there’s things that we say that we think like, it’s the pricing, it’s the feature or, actually underlying that is so many fears. Like what if I migrate all our emails and something happens and a freak accident happens and everything gets deleted and everything gets lost. Like that’s a real fear. What if I onboard a product

John Jantsch (10:32.693)

Yeah, yeah.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (10:35.5)

and everyone hates it and thinks, you know, I failed. There’s so many emotions involved in a process like that. So actually knowing and saying, hey, look, this is hard, this sucks. We know you’ve tried all of these other things, but we’re gonna help you. We’re gonna be there every step of the way. That’s knowing your audience and understanding their pains. And that’s incredible.

John Jantsch (10:39.903)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:56.565)

Yeah. So we’ve gotten halfway through and I haven’t actually asked you to outline. You have a, I think it’s in chapter two, a four step emotional targeting framework. So, without giving everything away here, you probably ought to at least set up the four steps.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (11:09.335)

Hahaha!

Okay, so there’s four steps. The first step is running meaningful research, customer research, which I kind of spoke about before, but in the book, I really explain how to run this research and how to actually ask the right questions, how to know how much information to actually collect. The second step is synthesizing the research. And this is actually really important because a lot of the times we’re collecting a ton of data, but we don’t know how to…

Turn it into actual insights that we can use So I talk about the different emotional triggers the most common emotional triggers that people have how to put it into different buckets How do I identify when something’s a pain when something’s a trigger when something’s more of a desired outcome? in step number three

We take all of our research and we audit our website. And this is super important because when we think about a CRO audit, we think, okay, I’ll do a heuristic analysis. I’ll check that I have one CTA and not two. But when I talk about an audit, I’m actually talking about an emotional targeting audit, which is a set of questions that you ask yourself to, it’s strategic questions. Am I appealing on an emotional level? Can people clearly see their specific pains reflected?

Can people see what’s in it for them? So there’s a set of questions that you ask yourself and you kind of make a check for every time you’ve done that. And I think what’s incredible here before I get to the full step is that the hardest part in conversion optimization isn’t running tests and isn’t identifying where the problem is. It’s knowing what the heck is wrong and what changes should I make on a page? When you’ve done this research and you start doing the audit,

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (12:57.866)

It’s incredible how quickly you can see the problems. we’re using stories that don’t resonate. We’re highlighting features people don’t care about. We’re talking about outcomes people don’t care about. So it’s so much easier to understand why people aren’t converting and come up with hypothesis, which leads us to step number four, which is running meaningful tests. That’s when we say, okay, my hypothesis is let’s say people can’t…

clearly and easily see that this product was built for them. So now I’m going to try and show this on the page, on my comparison page, on my homepage, in my navigation, and I’m going to see if by weaving in stories and testimonials and the features that people care about, will that increase conversions? So we do research, synthesizing, emotional audit, and running meaningful experiments that aren’t button tests.

John Jantsch (13:49.033)

Okay.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (13:55.01)

but are actually strategic so that you can learn from them even if you don’t increase conversions.

John Jantsch (14:01.407)

You know, you talked about reviews and, you know, looking at reviews, analysis, looking at questions on core room thing and things, you know, we have found over the years that, that, that, you know, the, best messaging usually comes up right out of the mouth of a customer. and it’s in their voice, their words, it’s probably not stuff that we think is that sexy, but it’s like what they’re really feeling. And, and it’s amazing. And,

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (14:15.81)

Yes.

John Jantsch (14:25.609)

What are we 14 minutes in? I’m first mentioned of AI. But one of the things that AI has really done, I think is, you a lot of people are using it for writing, but it does amazing analysis. So now you can take tons and tons of data. You take all your sales call transcripts and just dump them all in there. And it’s going to be able to synthesize, you know, here’s the themes.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (14:47.342)

100%, you know, garbage in garbage out. So if you can only feed AI with segmentation and raw data, that’s what you’re going to get back. And when you’re trying to write copy with it, and that’s the information you fed it, you’re going to get really bad copy. But other than that, you’re going to get really bad insights. When you feed it valuable insights, and you ask the right questions in AI, and you’re asking it to, hey, tell me what are the top

John Jantsch (15:16.629)

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (15:16.654)

three pains people mention from this thousands, like 1000 answers in my customer survey, what are the top three pains people mentioned? When you ask the right questions and you have really valuable data, that’s when you get the magic. That’s when you get incredible things from AI that you can actually use. And then you can also use it for writing copy. But what’s happening right now is people are just, you know, using basically feeding it garbage data.

And then that’s why when you go online and you’re searching for any kind of solution, everything looks the same and you could probably just swap out logos and you wouldn’t even know the difference.

John Jantsch (15:54.385)

Yeah, no question. In fact, I contend you could probably blank out all the logos of five different websites and then see if people in any of those companies can identify theirs. Because they’ll even read everybody else’s and theirs and go, I don’t know. So talk a little bit about A-B testing, because I think that’s a category that is so valuable, but so under your.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (16:12.6)

easy.

John Jantsch (16:21.429)

because a lot of people go, this is our best shot, put it out there. Why isn’t it working? You know, as opposed to, you know, and again, you know, one of the promises of AI is all of sudden now we’ve got potential for dynamic and personalization to where, you know, people can actually come and hear the message that we believe will be relevant to them. So why aren’t people doing more testing? A and B, guess would be part of that question would be how to do it effectively.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (16:49.986)

Well, testing is hard, right? It’s really, really hard. Like it’s not actually easy if we go back to like being honest and telling our customers. Avery testing is hard, but I think it’s also hard for most people because we’re on a hamster wheel. And I talk about this a bit about this in my book, that

John Jantsch (16:51.945)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:57.575)

Well, no, forget it. I want the magic pill. Give me the magic pill.

John Jantsch (17:09.439)

Yeah.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (17:13.922)

When we start A-B testing, we’re kind of just guess working our way around it and we’re Googling or searching on AI for best practices and we’re copying our competitors. And then we throw stuff on this like whatever tool that we’re using and we’re like, it doesn’t even work. It doesn’t even increase conversion. So why am I even wasting my time? And that’s because we’re running meaningless tests with no strategy behind it. Not to mention, obviously the fact that you have to get everyone on board when it comes to A-B testing, you have to sell your ideas.

There’s a lot of pushback. always a lot of like politics inside the organization and it’s just hard. But actually this is why emotional targeting is so great because when you are doing the hard research and you finally have a good hypothesis, you can A, get internal buy-in really quickly because you could say, look, guys, I’ve done the research. Here’s what our customers and our prospects are saying. And here’s what we’re saying on our website. Like we’re completely missing the mark.

I have an idea, I’m not gonna do a homepage redesign, don’t worry, but I’m gonna send out a few emails and I’m just gonna check this or I’m gonna test this on a landing page and let’s just see. So first you get buy-in. Second, when you run emotion-based tests that are based on a real hypothesis, a meaningful hypothesis, whether you increase conversions or not, you’re going to learn something.

Now, if you’re just testing a blue versus a red button and it decreases conversions or increases conversions, there’s nothing you can do with this test. Like you can’t actually say, I’m gonna change all my buttons to red now. Like there’s nothing to actually do with it. But when you learn that, let’s say, my prospects are deeply impacted by their social image. They really care about what other people think about them and buying this product.

makes other people think a different way about them and this matters. You can weave that into your ads, your emails, your landing pages, your comparison page, like everything. So I think the reason it’s so hard is again, like we’re just running meaningless tests. It’s technically hard. You need a lot of people, you need a lot of buy-in, but if you do it the right way, it’s super rewarding and you can break all those silos in the company and say, look, we tested this, we learned this. Hey, sales team, you should be using this content. Hey,

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (19:31.79)

product team, we’re learning that people really care about it. You should be talking about this product this way and this feature this way. Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:41.533)

It is pretty amazing. know, over the years it’s part, it’s largely accidental on my part, but over the years, you know, we’ll change something because it’s not working. And then all of sudden it’s like, all we did was change the headline. And now everybody’s like booking appointments. It’s like magical. It’s unbelievable. So, so you end the book with a call to action, to employing people, imploring people to become emotional detectives.

So how does that play out in your work?

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (20:18.51)

Well, most of all work when we become emotional detectives is doing the research and really identifying those emotions and why people buy because I truly believe that if we whatever you’re selling, if you can identify the real why behind the purchase, there’s no stopping you. There’s nothing you won’t be able to do in terms of optimizing every single page.

and asset that you create. the book and my website and my courses and, and, know, the consulting, the agency, everything is about helping teams become emotional detectives, getting to understand more about their customers than just their behavioral data, but really understanding the people behind the screens so that they can create user experiences and websites that people want to convert to and actually like.

John Jantsch (21:17.269)

I’ll tell you, appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there some place you’d invite people to connect with you, learn about your work, obviously learn about the book?

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (21:25.26)

Yeah, well you can get the book at taliawolf.com slash book or you can follow me on LinkedIn. I’m happy to connect. And also on our website, get uplift.co, which is my agency.

John Jantsch (21:38.901)

Again, thanks for spending a few moments with us. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Talia Wolf |

Getuplift (21:43.95)

Thank you for having me.

Helping Stakeholders Help Themselves

Helping Stakeholders Help Themselves written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch talks with Bill Shander, information designer, data communications expert, and founder of Beehive Media. Bill shares insights from his new book, “Stakeholder Whispering: Uncover What People Need Before Doing What They Ask.” The conversation covers how to turn complex data into clear, actionable stories, the importance of questioning order-taking, and why active listening and genuine curiosity are the keys to building trust and delivering what stakeholders truly need. Listeners will learn practical strategies for stakeholder engagement, leadership, and data-driven decision-making in the age of AI.

About the Guest

Bill Shander is a data communications expert, information designer, and founder of Beehive Media. With over 25 years of experience, he has helped leading organizations—including the United Nations, World Bank, and Deloitte—turn complex ideas into clear, actionable stories. Bill is a recognized thought leader in data visualization, storytelling, and stakeholder engagement, and is the author of “Stakeholder Whispering: Uncover What People Need Before Doing What They Ask.”

Website: billshander.com
LinkedIn: Bill Shander

Actionable Insights

Data storytelling is about communicating meaning and insight, not just sharing numbers and reports.
Order-taking leads to missed opportunities; real value comes from questioning, listening, and guiding stakeholders to what they truly need.
Active listening, curiosity, and asking better questions are essential for building trust and uncovering stakeholders’ real objectives.
Silence is a powerful tool for reflection and better conversation—embrace the pause to allow deeper thinking.
Stakeholder engagement applies to all roles, not just marketing—including HR, IT, and leadership.
Recognize and prioritize all stakeholders—sometimes the real goals and needs come from several layers up in the organization.
In hybrid and remote work environments, intentional communication and Socratic questioning are even more important.
Organizational culture and leadership openness determine how effective “stakeholder whispering” can be—seek or build a culture that values questioning and strategic thinking.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

00:45 – What is a Data Communication Expert?
Bill explains the importance of storytelling and visualization in making data meaningful.
01:44 – Why Stakeholder Whispering Matters More Than Ever
Why questioning and guiding stakeholders is critical in the age of AI and short attention spans.
04:28 – Beyond Order-Taking: Leading with Questions
Bill shares why challenging requests and using a consultative approach delivers better results.
07:41 – The Power of Active Listening and Curiosity
Tips for asking better questions and truly hearing stakeholders’ needs.
09:16 – Silence is Golden
The value of pausing, reflection, and pacing in communication and presentations.
10:28 – Common Pitfalls: Mistaking Tasks for Outcomes
Why focusing only on what’s requested misses the real goals.
12:58 – Recognizing the Real Stakeholders
How to identify and prioritize who really matters in any project or initiative.
15:13 – Culture, Leadership, and Whisperability
The role of culture and leadership in fostering open, strategic conversations.
17:01 – Adapting Stakeholder Engagement to Hybrid and Remote Work
Why face-to-face or Socratic dialogue is essential for discovering true needs.
18:58 – Real-World Example: The Power of Questioning Assumptions
Bill tells a client story where open-ended questioning led to a far better outcome.

Pulled Quotes

“Our job is not just to execute tasks—it’s to succeed and help our organization succeed. That means probing, questioning, and challenging the status quo.”
— Bill Shander

“Active listening, curiosity, and asking the right questions are what build trust and uncover what stakeholders really need.”
— Bill Shander

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:00.878)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Bill Shander. He’s a data communications expert, information designer and founder of Beehive Media. Over 25 years of experience, Bill has helped leading organizations, including United Nations, World Bank and Deloitte turn complex ideas into clear, actionable stories. We’re going to talk about his latest book today, Stakeholder Whispering, Uncover What People Need.

before doing what they ask. So Bill, welcome to the show.

Bill Shander (00:34.34)

Thank you, John. I’m really happy to be here.

John Jantsch (00:36.736)

So I just, sometimes people have things in their bios that I have to ask about. So what does a data communication expert do?

Bill Shander (00:45.654)

That’s a good question. So, you know, everybody these days has data, whether it’s your sales data, your marketing data, your HR data, everybody has data. We’re always packaging it up in PowerPoint presentations to present to our bosses or reports for the board or whoever. And people don’t really do a very good job of it either because they’re not really thinking about communicating ideas. They’re worried about shoving numbers at people. And so I help people.

John Jantsch (01:09.314)

Yeah. Right.

Bill Shander (01:12.216)

tell stories of data, as well as visualize that data in an impactful way.

John Jantsch (01:16.462)

Yeah. And I think there’s probably a lot of people, myself included, that I want to hear the story. Like, what does this data mean? you know, rather than just saying, look, we got this much traffic. Okay. Is that good? Is that bad? Yeah. So what inspired you to write the book? I mean, is there, is there something going on today, you know, in the business world that you think it makes this idea more critical?

Bill Shander (01:22.553)

Yeah.

Bill Shander (01:29.014)

Exactly. How many clicks is good? Are clicks even useful? We don’t know.

Bill Shander (01:44.378)

That’s a good question. I don’t know if today it’s more critical in that this has always been an issue, honestly. I’ve been looking at it for 30 years and took me a long time to realize that this is the thing. Like I’ve been thinking about doing a book for a long time and this was finally the idea of the nugget that said, yes, this must be done. It’s been an issue that’s been around forever. Is it more important today than ever? I would say maybe possibly because of AI. mean, okay, we’re already talking about AI, know, it’s 2025, of course you have to, but.

Honestly, when you ask AI to do something, it just does it. AI is an order taker. And we as humans, what can we do better than AI today? Maybe we can still discern, what really should be done? And maybe we can ask good follow-up questions on all the kinds of things that I talk about in the book that we have to do in order to make sure we’re delivering against the right tasks. AI is just going to do it. So it’s even more important for that reason.

John Jantsch (02:19.064)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (02:38.198)

Yeah. You know, it’s interesting. mean, I think you can make a case for being more important today and in some ways, because what you mentioned AI actually allows us to crunch a lot more data than we ever would have been able to in some cases. so we certainly have that even the smallest of companies have access now to big crunching. But I think also, I noticed a lot of people, stakeholders included, you know, have much shorter attention spans. And so,

Bill Shander (02:57.082)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:04.258)

You know, that 27 page PowerPoint deck, you know, can be condensed into a story or a metaphor. You know, that might actually be a better way to present the information.

Bill Shander (03:15.748)

Well, that’s it. so stakeholder whispering is, you the basic idea is your stakeholders ask you to do things based on their automated response. How do we usually do it? Well, usually we put it to 27 page PowerPoint deck together. And the problem is to what you said, you know, first of all, attention spans are shrinking a hundred other reasons why that may not be the best solution. But on top of that, like,

I mean, they don’t even know what they need. They’re just going to go with the automated response. And so our job as workers, and it doesn’t matter what role you’re in, if it’s marketing, great, but HR people need this, IT people, finance, et cetera. Whatever we’re working on, we need to question the ask, know, question that automated response. Maybe it is a PowerPoint deck that’s needed, or maybe not to your point.

John Jantsch (04:03.928)

So you mentioned the word order taking, know, I actually, ironically, somebody just said this to me the other day. We have to, you know, we have to sell them what they want so that we can get the trust to sell them what they need. You’ve probably heard that before and you’re kind of advocating for the idea that, no, we need to lead them to what they need and not, you know, and maybe use numbers to help do that. Talk a little more about that idea of beyond order taking.

Bill Shander (04:15.502)

Yeah. Yeah.

Bill Shander (04:28.738)

Yeah. And what you just said is also true, right? Like you do have to gain trust before you can lead them effectively. But yes, the fact is our stakeholders don’t know what they need and our job is to guide them. I often say it’s like therapy. I have a whole chapter in the book about how to conduct a therapy session because it is very much like therapy. Someone comes to a therapist because they have an issue and they need help. And the therapist doesn’t tell them what to do.

They ask them questions. say, well, how does that make you feel? Right? And the questions, right. And the questions allow you to look inside yourself and say, wait, yeah. How does that make me feel? And so in work, okay, you know, we’re launching a new product marketing, make us a brochure. Okay. You know, why would a brochure be better than an app or better than this, that, or the other? Huh? Yeah. Maybe, maybe we should do an app. that introspective opportunity is what guides us down the road towards maybe another option.

John Jantsch (04:56.406)

Yeah. Why do we want that?

Bill Shander (05:24.634)

you know, when you’re new, like you’re in a new role, new boss, whatever, you haven’t gained that trust yet, maybe all you do is you try one thing, one question, which is, the question could be, how do we measure success? How are we gonna know this is gonna, when this has worked, how are we gonna measure that? And just that one question, it’s not gonna get them all the way to some new way of thinking maybe.

but it’s an initial ask. It’s at least one step beyond overtaking. And then over time, you’ll gain more trust and you’ll be able to sort of expand on that guidance way of thinking about it.

John Jantsch (05:58.144)

You know, what I have found is, is that’s a, that’s an incredible technique in selling. you know, a lot of times people will come to us and say, want this, listen, this. and if, if we have the posture or the courage to back up and say what you said, how will that, how will we know that’s successful? What would success look like? How are we going to measure that? have you considered, I find a lot of times people will put their guard down then and like, we’re going to actually have a conversation about.

Bill Shander (06:04.793)

It is.

John Jantsch (06:26.764)

what we should be doing, I don’t have to pretend I know what to tell you to do. And I find it very disarming in a sales conversation. I mean, not to the level of being obnoxious, you know what I mean? But definitely to the level of saying, let’s think about insights instead of actions.

Bill Shander (06:30.658)

Right.

Bill Shander (06:36.42)

Totally, you’re building trust.

Bill Shander (06:40.9)

Yeah.

Bill Shander (06:45.806)

Yeah, you’re building trust the moment you do that, especially in the sales context when there’s, there’s that built in lack of trust in a way. And on top of that, you know, what, what I found in my career, the only success I’ve had in my career is because I was good at the skills, stakeholder whispering. And, know, part of that is no question. It’s the consultative approach. I’m not here.

to sell you widgets, I’m here to solve your problems. I’m here to actually help you succeed. And when you really honestly are doing that, then that includes, yeah, that asking questions like that, will lead to the right solution, not just a solution that puts dollars in my pocket.

John Jantsch (07:22.552)

So of course you’re implying that you have to actually care about getting them a result, right? Yeah. So we’ve covered one side of it, asking better questions, but what role does actually being a better listener play in this?

Bill Shander (07:26.818)

You do. You have to care and you have to be curious. Those are two things that go sort of hand in hand.

Bill Shander (07:41.848)

Yeah, active listening is something is a phrase people talk about. But do you really listen? know, and you know, what’s interesting is like, here we are, we’re having, of course, and like, you’re an interviewer in this context, and you have to do that, right? And like, when I’m talking to a client, I got to be taking notes, I got to be thinking about my next question, response, or you can’t avoid some some of that. But at the same time,

John Jantsch (07:49.07)

No, I’m thinking about the next question I’m going to ask.

Bill Shander (08:07.61)

What I encourage people to do is as best you can within that reality, you try to really listen. And a friend of mine just recently told me his phrase is, listen with your ears, not your brain. So really hear, and yeah, you’re gonna jot notes, you’re gonna notice a little trigger word, they said X, put a little circle on that, whatever, but don’t start formulating your next question as much as you can avoid it until they stop. Truly listen for that whole time.

John Jantsch (08:18.766)

Mm-hmm.

Bill Shander (08:35.354)

It’s really hard to do. None of us could do it perfectly, but we can strive towards that ideal.

John Jantsch (08:41.132)

I think it’s a little bit cultural too. think, you know, Americans are just like, we need noise. They’re like silence, you know, just kills us, right? I read a study the other day that said Americans, I think the average like silence before they become very uncomfortable is three seconds. And in Japan, it is very common for somebody to get asked a question and to literally wait for eight seconds before answering to give it thought and to give it, you know,

Bill Shander (08:50.702)

Yeah.

Bill Shander (09:04.536)

Wow.

John Jantsch (09:08.486)

emotion and I thought, you know, that’s probably I mean, most people if I sat here for eight seconds of dead air, people were like, what’s wrong? It’s pretty interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

Bill Shander (09:16.495)

Yeah.

So I have a chapter called Silence is Golden. And not only do I talk about that, but even the chapter, the book is put on the pages in a way that each page is just one sentence with silence all around it. Because it is that important, but it is uncomfortable, it’s true.

John Jantsch (09:29.42)

Yeah. Funny. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve taken I’ve do some public speaking and I’ve taken some training on that and frequently a coach or something will say no let that pause let that sit let the audience digest that boy when you’re up on stage it’s like can I do it. It’s really hard. It’s funny. So so what are the

Bill Shander (09:55.186)

It is, but yeah, good, Go ahead. No, I was just gonna say, yeah, that strategic performance, which includes pauses, silence, pacing. I can speak really quickly and I can slow it down. And that has an effect on your audience for sure. Whether it’s an audience of one stakeholder or a room full of people.

John Jantsch (09:59.084)

Go ahead and finish, sir.

John Jantsch (10:15.278)

Right. So what are, let’s go with the negative. What are the common mistakes that people make? They might get the essence of this book and then charge in. What are some of the things that you see are pitfalls?

Bill Shander (10:28.312)

I mean, you one of the biggest problems people face is that they think that their job is to do what their boss tells them to do. And like on paper, there’s some truth to that, but, clients, not just bosses, clients, investors, whoever your stakeholders are, there’s a broad range of them. Obviously your job is to execute on tasks for your organization, but it’s not just to be that order taker that we talked about. So you have to, the most important thing I’m hoping people remember after reading the book.

is that they just need to do this. Like, see the world in a new way. Your job is not to execute those tasks your boss tells you to do. Your job is to succeed and help your organization succeed. And that includes probing. know, just asking, is this the right thing to be doing? Is this the right way to be doing that thing? So, step number one, acknowledge that this is a thing and just try to do something about it.

Another challenge is that some people are less whisperable than others, right? Some bosses are not so even into having these long conversations, like, you know, just do what I said, right? And obviously that takes confidence to push back and really engage your stakeholders, which also of course takes trust like we talked about. And I would say one of the third things is that, you know, it’s challenging for

John Jantsch (11:33.614)

you

Bill Shander (11:53.004)

ourselves, just sort of acknowledge to ourselves that, you know, essentially we’re all walking around being driven by our subconscious. We’re like literally all of our lives is driven by our subconscious. Tons of research shows us that we’re not very good at reasoning. We’re not really very good at deliberative thinking. We’re just being driven by our subconscious. And so if we can just think about ways to tap into the subconscious, yes, even in work, it’s like therapy, then we’re all going to do a better job doing what we need to do for.

ourselves and our organizations. And it is for ourselves also, like you’re going to be promoted if you’re the one who actually challenges the status quo, brings strategic thinking to the table and delivers against that. know duct tape marketing, the basic idea, right, is be strategic, don’t just execute on tasks, right? And so it’s a very similar way of thinking.

John Jantsch (12:40.782)

So I’m curious, have you ever considered children to be stakeholders that we have to whisper to? As I heard you say that, just do what I said. was like, that’s probably not the most current way of thinking about parenting, it?

Bill Shander (12:46.382)

They certainly could be. Yeah. I mean, and that’s

Bill Shander (12:58.264)

Yeah. And actually brings up the fourth really important thing to be thinking about and a risk, you know, a problem with this is that we don’t recognize, acknowledge, define, and prioritize all of the stakeholders. Right? So my boss tells me to do something, I do it. I am thinking my one stakeholder is my boss. No.

Your boss asked you to do that because his boss asked him and his boss, her boss. And so it’s four chains deep. And by the way, the board of directors is going to show this to their investors. Like the stakeholder list is actually this long. And now you can’t worry about all of them, but which ones are the two or the three whose opinions and actual goals really matter the most. Really zoom in on those ones and really make sure you understand their actual needs.

Like if it’s ultimately about the investors, even though your boss has you do it, they’re the real stakeholder. So make sure you understand what they really need and make sure your boss understands that they’re his stakeholder. And so that they’re involved in that stakeholder whispering with them.

John Jantsch (14:01.176)

So that brings up an interesting quant. How do you balance the fact that the objective might be to create a better experience for the customer? However, what my boss is doing, my objective has to be to keep my job. And so now I’m kind of torn between that. This isn’t really the right approach for that stakeholder. But if I want to meet this objective, how do you balance that?

Bill Shander (14:26.49)

Yeah, it’s the million dollar question. It’s hard one, right? So like some bosses, some people are not going to be very whisperable. And yeah, you could jeopardize your job with that person theoretically. I would say long term, most of the time, if you serve the customer, you’re not going to jeopardize your job.

John Jantsch (14:31.598)

Yeah.

Bill Shander (14:47.884)

and everything’s going to be for the better. Like you’re going to be the one who gets promoted. You’re going to take your boss’s job, right? Essentially, because you’re going to really solve problems. Should. Occasionally it won’t. And you either are willing to face that risk for the potential reward and or if your boss isn’t whisperable, guess what? I say, find a new boss, right? Because that’s really honestly the answer. You don’t want to work in a culture like that.

John Jantsch (14:52.782)

should work that way, right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:07.362)

me. Right.

John Jantsch (15:13.09)

Like so many, I would put this book into a leadership category. Hopefully that jives a little bit with what you’re thinking. And it seems like most leadership ideas really start with the culture of the organization.

Bill Shander (15:22.51)

Yeah, definitely.

Bill Shander (15:29.166)

They definitely do. Yeah. And I have a chapter at the end, which is called some love for my stakeholders or some love for the stakeholders. And I talk about the fact is first of all, I do, I love my stakeholders and it’s not just like blowing smoke. I’ve really enjoyed the work that I’ve done for the last 30 plus years. I’ve enjoyed working with the vast majority of my clients and I really, am curious and I do care and I want to help them. And so.

When I think, when I talk to them in the book, I say, first of all, thank you for teaching me for all these years how to do what I do. But then I also do turn the page a little bit on them and say, okay, now you may be reading this because you’re a middle manager. Guess what? You’re somebody else’s boss, aren’t you? Also, you are somebody’s stakeholder today, even though you’re thinking of as the order taker. So how whisperable are you? And so companies need to develop the culture where they create.

know, cultures of whisperability. And I have some clients who have amazing cultures where they, listen to me, they listen to their employees. It’s not about hierarchy or anything else. And I’ve worked for, you know, as a vendor for some companies that were really not whisperable at all. And I didn’t work for them for, for very long for a variety of reasons, but it’s really hard to be in that type of environment.

John Jantsch (16:45.262)

You have a chapter about, I mean, so many people are working either hybrid or remote or does that change kind of the framework at all or the structure or does it just add kind of another layer of complexity?

Bill Shander (17:01.978)

think it adds another layer complexity for sure because communications is harder, right? Like right now, I’m not looking at you, I’m looking at my camera, but the viewer is looking at my eyes. So at least there’s some eye contact it feels like happening. And so, you know, when it’s all on Zoom, it’s harder to have that real, really productive conversation, certainly better, you know, the body language and all kinds of other things disappear. So there’s definitely that added complexity.

But the process is still the same. You’ve got to have conversations. You’ve got to ask good questions. And something we didn’t talk about, but there’s a key part to the question asking, which is when I ask my stakeholders questions, I’m not doing it to learn the answers. It’s actually the other way around. It’s more of a Socratic dialogue. I’m asking them questions so that they can learn the answers. I want them to figure out what they actually need from me. I’m not trying to guide them. I’m not trying to tell them. I want them to figure it out. It’s like therapy.

John Jantsch (17:44.483)

Yes.

Bill Shander (17:58.848)

Once they figure it out, then I’ll do that. And so the question asking is a very, it’s a two-way street for sure, but the goal is really to help them learn as much as to help me learn.

John Jantsch (18:11.406)

Yeah, you you call it therapy, but it really strikes me. It’s a lot like coaching in some ways. mean, you’re almost coaching people to think about things that maybe haven’t even considered. know, one of my favorite phrases or least favorite phrases is, that’s the way we’ve always done it. Or that’s the way everybody in our industry does it. And, you know, just to even say, anybody ask why? So we’ve always done it that way. It’s amazing how often people will go, you know, I don’t know.

Bill Shander (18:16.591)

Yeah.

Bill Shander (18:28.515)

Right.

Yeah.

Bill Shander (18:36.697)

you

Bill Shander (18:41.55)

Yeah, it’s true.

John Jantsch (18:41.586)

the answer to that. So do you have any in the book or anything you want to anybody you’ve worked with clients that you’ve worked with kind of a real story or example where you know stakeholder whispering has really led to a far better outcome.

Bill Shander (18:58.99)

Yeah, I I tell one story in the book and it’s funny on the surface. It’s a really boring story. It’s not the most dynamic anecdote in the history of the world at all, but it’s one of the most, the moment when this happened was like really eyeopening for me. so was working on project. was doing this data dashboard essentially for this client and we’re having this conversation about whether we should show the rank position.

of countries on this one metric being measured. So this country is number one, two, three, four, five, or should we show the actual score they got on this measurement? So let’s imagine it’s about web analytics. Should we show the number of clicks they got or just the ranking in terms of clicks? And their argument was the way this type of data usually works, the way it’s always been done, is we always just show the rank because people care if their country ahead or behind their favorite country that they want to compete against. But the scores…

John Jantsch (19:37.526)

Thank

Bill Shander (19:55.364)

were universally really, really high. Very few countries had a low score. So you might’ve been ranked 150th. That looks terrible, that sounds awful. But guess what? You had a super high score, just like everybody else. Only a few countries were actually bad. And so was trying to make the case that maybe we should show the actual score because the fact that this country was ranked low didn’t mean they had an actual problem. And so the data…

John Jantsch (20:17.184)

Yeah, they could close 50 places pretty easily.

Bill Shander (20:20.886)

Exactly. They could close it easily and it didn’t matter where they were anyways, as long as they were above X score. And so, you know, I’m asking all these questions. We’re having this really long debate and she almost convinced me five times. I almost convinced her five times. But the point was, you know, it was a very open ended conversation, mostly each of us asking each other questions. and in the end, you know, there was this one moment where she said just literally, she said the word something to the effect of, I never saw it that way before.

John Jantsch (20:24.59)

Yeah.

Bill Shander (20:50.446)

You’re right. And it wasn’t gratifying because I was right, although that’s nice, you know, but it was really because there was this moment of just incredible open-mindedness to your point. Like, why have we always done it that way? Who the hell knows? Like, well, why should we do it that way? Maybe we should consider, maybe we won’t change it, but maybe we should at least look at doing it this other way. And even that I consider a win.

John Jantsch (20:50.819)

Thanks.

John Jantsch (21:15.222)

Yeah, awesome. Well, Bill, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the show. You want to invite people to connect with you somewhere, find out more about your work, obviously find out more about stakeholder risk.

Bill Shander (21:26.136)

Yeah, you can always find me on my website, BillShander.com. And I’m always happy to connect with people on LinkedIn as well.

John Jantsch (21:32.3)

Well again, I appreciate you stopping by. Hopefully we’ll see you one of these days out there on the road.

Bill Shander (21:36.794)

Thank you very much, John. Nice talking to you.

SEO’s Next Era: Manick Bhan on AI, Content Strategy, and Building a Brand That Lasts

SEO’s Next Era: Manick Bhan on AI, Content Strategy, and Building a Brand That Lasts written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen to the full episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Manick Ban, founder and CTO of Search Atlas—a next-generation SEO and content marketing platform. Manick shares his journey from building RankPay to scaling Search Atlas, and explains why the future of SEO depends on actionable insights, platform integration, and building a brand people trust. The conversation covers the evolution of search, the impact of AI, why high-intent content matters more than ever, and how marketers can thrive in a landscape that’s constantly being disrupted.

About the Guest

Manick Bhan is the founder and CTO of Search Atlas, an advanced SEO and content marketing platform used by over 20,000 websites and 5,000 agencies. A serial entrepreneur and engineer, Manick previously founded RankPay and is widely respected as a thought leader in the SEO industry. He’s known for his innovative approach to search, actionable advice for marketers, and commitment to helping brands drive measurable growth.

- Website: searchatlas.com

YouTube: Search Atlas Channel

Actionable Insights

The future of SEO is about driving real change—not just reporting on data. Tools need to accelerate action, not just provide analytics.
AI is transforming search: Conversion rates from AI-powered search (like ChatGPT) are significantly higher than traditional search.
Marketers must focus on high-intent, core topic content that matches their business’s primary value—not just generic informational posts.
Over-diversifying topics can dilute your site’s authority and harm rankings. Clear focus and topical relevance are critical.
“Quantity” content strategies are quickly becoming obsolete; quality, brand authority, and community matter most in the new search landscape.
Rented platforms (Google, LinkedIn, YouTube) will always be a reality for marketers—so invest in building a brand people seek out directly.
In an era of information overload and AI-generated content, real-world community and peer recommendations are becoming more valuable.
Entrepreneurs should embrace failure early and often—consistent effort and learning lead to long-term success.

Great Moments (with Timestamps)

01:03 – Why Search Atlas? Building Tools for Action, Not Just Analytics
Manick explains why he built Search Atlas to help marketers move beyond reporting and actually drive site changes.
03:03 – The Truth About “SEO is Dead” Headlines
Why search is evolving—not disappearing—and how user intent and platforms are shifting.
05:05 – AI’s Impact: Higher Conversion from ChatGPT
Manick shares real data on why AI-powered search users convert better and are more ready to buy.
09:12 – Winning High-Intent Searches
The power of laser-focused content strategy and why matching your core keyword matters above all else.
13:41 – The End of Web Pages? Content’s Coming Transformation
Why Manick predicts web pages as we know them could disappear, replaced by knowledge graphs and platform-generated answers.
15:30 – The Only Moat: Build a Brand They Remember
How to create recall, loyalty, and direct traffic in a world of rented digital real estate.
18:05 – The Comeback of Community
Why in-person connection and peer recommendations are more valuable than ever in an AI-driven world.
19:09 – Entrepreneurship Lessons: Fail Faster, Learn More
Manick’s advice for founders and marketers: don’t be afraid of failure, keep taking swings, and success will follow.

Pulled Quotes

“If you’re not driving action on your site, you’re just watching through the looking glass. Tools have to help you move.”
— Manick Bhan

“In a world of abundant content, your only moat is brand—people need to know you, remember you, and come back.”
— Manick Bhan

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.144)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is Jon Jantsch. My guest today is Manick Bhan. He is the founder, CTO of Search Atlas, a cutting edge SEO and content marketing platform designed to help marketers, agencies and businesses drive measurable growth. With a background in engineering and entrepreneurship, Manick previously founded RankPay and has become a respected thought leader in the SEO community. So Manick, welcome to the show.

Manick @ Search Atlas (00:30.847)

Thank you, John. Great to be here.

John Jantsch (00:32.686)

So let’s talk a little bit about creating a search Atlas. How old is search Atlas now? Five years ish? Is that?

Manick @ Search Atlas (00:39.551)

I think the first line of code I wrote about seven years ago. Yeah.

John Jantsch (00:44.066)

Seven years ago, okay. So a lot’s changed in that approach or in SEO necessarily. how did you approach or maybe even a better question, why did you think a tool needed to be built for SEO purposes? What was kind of your founding thinking of this?

Manick @ Search Atlas (01:03.187)

Yeah. Good question. with my first, my first tech company, we were in the live entertainment ticketing space. And if you don’t rank on Google, you don’t exist in that industry. You know, it’s like the largest ticketing company is actually Google. It’s not ticket master or stop hub. It’s Google because you go to Google to then find those tickets. So if you’re not on Google there, your business doesn’t exist. So figuring out what the equation was, was something that I started trying to crack the code on, over a decade ago. And.

John Jantsch (01:13.428)

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (01:33.437)

What I learned very quickly in the process of trying to scale and grow that business is that other tools out there, conventional, what I call traditional or trad SEO tools like Ahrefs or SEMrush, these are analytics tools. They give us reports, they give us like data, but if we don’t move on that data, nothing moves, right? We’re just watching through the looking glass. And so I felt what we needed really as an industry was tools that would actually help us accelerate

John Jantsch (01:43.789)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (01:52.034)

Yeah, yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (02:02.259)

change, like the changes to our sites, the changes to the internet that help us rank better. And that’s where Search Atlas came from.

John Jantsch (02:09.592)

So people aren’t familiar with search as necessarily, you know, it basically lives on a platform, but it connects with your website. And so it actually is able to make changes on your website from that platform. That sort of took some wizardry, didn’t it?

Manick @ Search Atlas (02:25.087)

It did. It started as something on back of the envelope, trying to figure out how we would do this and make it fast in real time. But we’re happy that it worked. Initially, we weren’t even sure if Google would be able to see the changes that we were making. So there was a lot of risk in the early days, but I believed that we would figure it out. And we did. And now I can be, I think I’m happy to say, so over 20,000 sites powered by the tech, by the software.

John Jantsch (02:26.094)

You

Manick @ Search Atlas (02:54.269)

over 5,000 agencies on the platform. And it’s a case study machine. Like it just produces case studies constantly. And that’s been great.

John Jantsch (03:03.918)

Yeah. So you’ve probably seen these headlines of late. You know, it’s become very trendy to start a blog post or something with SEO is dead. let’s talk a little bit. So how do you see the landscape changing right now? I mean, there’s no question it is evolving and changing, but certainly not dead. How do you see it? How do you see it today?

Manick @ Search Atlas (03:15.229)

Yeah, I wonder why that is.

Manick @ Search Atlas (03:29.363)

Yeah, I think the problem is that some people’s brains are dead and they see those headlines and that’s what they click on. But the truth is, search is like a basic human function. We have information demands and needs that we need to get met. And there will always be a search engine to meet us in that. The form of what that takes and how it operates and whether the modality is through text or through audio or other formats, that’s going to evolve and become more interesting.

But at a fundamental basis, we’re essentially providing a fragment of information, looking for knowledge. And that discovery process is just evolved. The landscape is now more fragmented than it used to be. The total size of search is actually bigger. And it’s still Google’s game, but the types and ways that we’re searching are changing. And the kinds of people that search on different search platforms is also

John Jantsch (04:15.587)

Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (04:27.743)

becoming pretty interesting. What we’re seeing in our data.

John Jantsch (04:29.826)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that’s almost like there’s almost like search personality, right? Almost.

Manick @ Search Atlas (04:36.743)

Yeah, I mean, on the end, on the other end of the computer, there’s an avatar, there’s an ICP. And the ICP of the chat GPT user is someone who’s willing to pay at least 20 bucks a month. Remember that, like we’re paying for the subscription. Anyone can search on Google without even a dollar. It’s a free platform. And so immediately there’s a higher commercial possibility from the user of chat. That’s why I guess when we look at our data, we’re seeing

John Jantsch (04:38.062)

Yeah, yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (05:05.278)

5.5 times higher conversion rate from people that go to our site from chat GPT than from Google, which was insane. And then even for some of our product pages, we see, you know, 1.5 to 4X higher conversion rate. So it’s undeniable that the conversion likelihood is way higher from chat than it is from Google. And that’s what we’re seeing.

John Jantsch (05:27.384)

Yeah, and I think it makes a ton of sense because at least today, the snapshot in the moment, I think that the consumer’s belief is, chat, GPT or AI or something has gone out there and done all the research for me. And so these three results that it gave me, you that’s all I need to look at. And I think that’s really why you’re seeing that. Don’t you think that’s why that intent and that conversion is so high?

Manick @ Search Atlas (05:49.843)

Yeah, for sure. And the other thing that happens faster on LLMs is that you’re able to do your research in a more comprehensive way. So there’s other prompts they’re asking. They’re asking refinements and they’re digging in deeper. They’re going and they’re asking more questions. And then when they get to the final end of their journey, usually they’re in a pretty close position, I think, to make the transaction happen and they’re ready.

John Jantsch (06:16.022)

Yeah. Yeah. was a lot of those questions they used to ask a salesperson have now been answered. Yeah. Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (06:21.693)

Yeah, exactly. Way less objections and they’re way more familiar with what they’re buying. And from an information processing perspective, John, like that’s the other amazing thing about it is it’s way easier for us to interact with ChatGPT because we know the structure. It’s text and it’s structured in a way and it’s easy to synthesize that.

John Jantsch (06:37.858)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:44.238)

Yeah, yeah, it’s a conversation. Feels like a conversation, right? So, how, where do you, what do you see the biggest opportunities and maybe the biggest risks today for marketers with AI becoming, you know, so integrated into search strategies?

Manick @ Search Atlas (07:00.447)

Yeah, that’s an interesting one. I think one of the biggest risks is

Manick @ Search Atlas (07:09.297)

One of the biggest risks is how the platforms themselves are changing. And if you’re like, as an example, if you’re a pure play organic search marketer that was good at creating content and you were creating a lot of informational content, that strategy is becoming more and more obsolete because the truth is Google and all the LMS, they already know what color an Apple is and they know that the sky’s blue. Like we don’t have to like create content to show that to them.

John Jantsch (07:29.027)

Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (07:38.143)

We have to create something new and different. And so some people that haven’t evolved their marketing approach in organic SEO, that methodology is already obsolete and they need to retrain. So I think that’s a risk is obsolescence. If you’re watching podcasts like this and reading up and actually applying the knowledge, well, you’re using an obsolete blueprint that’s living in, hopefully not Windows 95, but an out-of-date era.

John Jantsch (07:44.408)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:07.064)

Yeah, yeah,

Manick @ Search Atlas (08:07.439)

So that’s a risk. Yeah. And the platforms themselves are changing a lot. like what used to work two years ago on Facebook, for example, like I remember buying mobile app installs from, for my first tech company for less than a dollar by scraping the Facebook user IDs and running custom audiences. They closed that loophole. So just how the platforms work, their opportunities, that also changes. And it’s changing faster with AI now than it was before.

John Jantsch (08:36.142)

So you described a lot of that how-to content. The theory was very top of the funnel, get people to my website, that kind of thing. The common advice that I’m hearing a lot and a lot of folks are giving right now is that our content strategy needs to be more around winning high intent searches, which I think people would say we’ve always wanted to do, right? But that person that’s out there searching for best person to do X is a

is a better searcher, but how do we optimize our content for that type of probably more competitive search?

Manick @ Search Atlas (09:12.595)

Yeah. So it’s, so it starts with really understanding your, like the central topic or the primary keyword of your business and being really laser clear about that. So for example, for search Atlas, some people would say it’s SEO. No, it’s actually not SEO. It’s if it’s SEO, then it’s SEO automation and not just SEO automation, SEO automation software. Right. Or maybe it’s marketing automation software.

John Jantsch (09:19.128)

Yep.

John Jantsch (09:34.551)

Mm-hmm.

Manick @ Search Atlas (09:41.279)

problem becomes first off when people begin the process from the wrong starting point and they don’t really understand what is what’s called like their primary keyword or their central searching town. So that’s the first thing. what I, we do, because we also have an agency and we take on a lot of projects from people that have worked with other agencies that did the content process wrong. And they didn’t understand what it was that this business was actually selling and they created as an example.

John Jantsch (10:04.781)

Nice.

Manick @ Search Atlas (10:10.463)

for a cardiologist in LA, an article about did Donald Trump have a heart attack? Well, I get the concept of a heart attack and Donald, that’s somehow related to cardiology, but that has nothing to do with cardiology in Los Angeles or the service or the practice of it. And so when people take that path and they don’t do the right content strategy, they confuse Google about what the site is actually about. And that is the part that is devastating when they…

John Jantsch (10:24.451)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:35.629)

Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (10:39.281)

increase the site’s focus score, which is a metric Google is quantifying, when they reduce its focus score, when they increase its radius, when the site gets topical radius goes large, it becomes unable to rank for a core topic. And that’s like the mathematics of how they do the demotion. That I think is the biggest problem with content strategies today.

John Jantsch (11:02.39)

Yeah. You see a lot of people that write these things that get a whole lot of eyeballs. And then when you really start drilling into it, it’s like, well, these aren’t, these aren’t people that would ever buy from us, you know? And, so it’s almost like you’re hurting yourself, you know? Yeah. Great. We’ve got lots of traffic, but you’re actually hurting yourself. So, so how should, how should marketers that’s broad and beyond SEO be, thinking about AI today and certainly as it plays into, to your tool search analysts as well.

Manick @ Search Atlas (11:11.732)

Right.

Manick @ Search Atlas (11:33.097)

Well, probably the common thing anyone’s going to say right now is like, learn more AI, like get more into the tools, practice it. And so I don’t want to just say that. I like to come up with kind of my own little unique flavor angle on it. And what I would say is, create gatherings of people either on your team or people that you respect in the community and do your own hackathons. There’s way more power.

John Jantsch (11:39.778)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (11:59.95)

Mmm.

Manick @ Search Atlas (12:01.971)

When a group of people collectively approach a problem together in like in the real world, by the way, not, I’m not talking about zoom. I’m talking about in the real world. we do hackathons with my team and I, I fly out all over the world to meet different clusters of our team. And we lead hackathons for like four days, five days. We all stay in the same place and we build and we build in at the end. We come out, but we come up with a couple of different things we’ve created together and the process though, we all.

become masters of some type of use case around AI in that process. And sometimes we’ll even bring in people that I know that are experts in a particular discipline. And so if you don’t know those sorts of people, go find them and make friends with them and learn as much as you can, not just from what’s online and on YouTube, but from real experts that you can become friends with.

John Jantsch (12:49.975)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:01.87)

So there’s a lot of common, know, the whole idea of quality versus quantity. And I see a lot of people looking at AI and saying, I can produce 10 times as much content, you know, in the same amount of time. And I think the flip side of that is I also think you can look at these tools and say, no, I can produce way better content in maybe the amount of time because I can go so much deeper. can have access to stats. I can have access to

know, reports to people have written and be able to pull quotes from other people. Is there a quantity versus quality kind of best practice or advice that you give people?

Manick @ Search Atlas (13:41.753)

So I’ll give a controversial take. I think that web pages as we know them will be dead in less than 10 years. And the reason for this is that right now, and historically, Google have needed us to build web pages and really even Facebook to build web pages to lead people on an informational journey that maybe also includes a conversion journey.

towards some sort of transaction or registration or some path like that. And they needed us to box up the information because they didn’t have it. When we live in an era where creating content, you can create high quality content and lots of it, where content, the value of it, whether it’s a webpage or a blog post is essentially zero and high quality content is abundant. That’s the future we’re racing towards. And so in a world like that,

essentially all the information that’s knowable gets compressed into a knowledge graph. And that knowledge graph is essentially containing all of the factuality, all the information consensus of all of the voices on the internet and the world. And then at that point, Google can just make their own web pages. They don’t need us to build it for them. They just know what our query is. They have their lens and perspective on an answer or multiple answers. And so they will reconstruct

John Jantsch (14:55.138)

Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (15:04.627)

the webpage experience synthetically optimized for our exact question and the exact answer we’re looking for.

John Jantsch (15:10.06)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dynamically created for that one person as well. Right. Which, which obviously we, you know, very hard for us to do as a website owner. Yeah. I guess the begs the question then like, what do we do to, compete with that?

Manick @ Search Atlas (15:15.859)

Yeah, on the fly.

Manick @ Search Atlas (15:30.633)

Well, good question. Number one, build the biggest brand you can fast. Build that brand, get people to know that brand and love it. Build something that they want to come back to. Use your resources to create a true brand. Ultimately, all these search systems are essentially trying to identify the brands. Larry Page said famously that the internet is a cesspool and the brands are the signal and the cesspool. That’s literally what he said.

John Jantsch (15:33.294)

you

Manick @ Search Atlas (15:59.933)

And so what does a brand look like? Well, brand looks like people coming to your website, to your assets consistently to first a single purpose and for them to have like a high recall amongst your competitors. Get to that point. Even through traditional methodology, just get there because ultimately that’s the signal you can’t fake.

John Jantsch (16:25.612)

One of the things that I’m seeing a lot go on, you I’ve been doing this for a very, very long time. You know, the first kind of round of digital was like, once these other platforms started popping up, it was like, you know, go there, top of the funnel, get some exposure, but drive everybody back to your own property, your website, your email list, right? I’m seeing a lot more people that are investing in YouTube channels and in LinkedIn newsletters that are

of rented space, but that the entire conversion journey is actually happening in some of those rented places without necessarily sending people back to your home. So how do you feel about that kind of rented versus owned change that seems to be going on?

Manick @ Search Atlas (17:08.819)

I think we’ve always, yeah, I think we’ve always lived in a rent world. It’s always been rented and we just maybe didn’t want to believe it. because even ranking on Google, that’s also rented, right? We’re renting it. We could lose it if we, if we make a mistake. the exception to this would be Amazon, but even Amazon has parts of its business that are rented. and so I think it’s becoming comfortable with the fact that across all areas that, that we have visibility.

John Jantsch (17:18.99)

Yeah, sure.

Manick @ Search Atlas (17:36.627)

we will always be competing with our competitors there. So that means at the core of what we’re doing, we can’t just use crony marketing techniques to box out, you know, the bad guys and just keeping the good guys. Good guys have to become better. You guys have to like keep evolving the state of the art in our craft so that we stay competitive. And like, I mean, that sounds like the most obvious thing, right? Like we just can’t, you know, but I think that’s what it is. And if you build something,

John Jantsch (17:59.436)

Yeah. There’s no silver bullet in that, though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (18:05.767)

No, there’s not. And it’s different depending on what industry you’re in. ultimately, guess, you know, and I always hated like the Kevin Costner, if you build it, they will come like mentality that Google have. Like I’ve always hated it. But ultimately it is like in this perspective, it’s true that if you build something of value and people will come back to it and you know, only other thing I want to add to that is also, I think because of this, we’re going to see people move back toward community.

John Jantsch (18:15.512)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (18:34.585)

real face-to-face spaces that are free of digital advertising and just people that now feel like they’re being misled by what they see online. feel like everything’s been gamed and can be gamed. There’s an increasing amount of people that are looking for recommendation from another person, not from the internet.

John Jantsch (18:34.69)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:57.048)

So last question, I always love to end on kind of a personal question. Looking back at kind of your entrepreneurial journey, any lesson that you wish you’d learned a little earlier as a founder?

Manick @ Search Atlas (19:09.663)

Don’t be afraid to fail and fail harder. I had my days of couch surfing and crashing in New York City in the early part of my startup journey when I had no money and I zero twice. And I think we need to celebrate that more and be comfortable and support people who are there. And I’ll say every single person I know that was in startups or building on their entrepreneurial journey a decade ago,

John Jantsch (19:11.31)

Yeah.

Manick @ Search Atlas (19:38.289)

every single one of them has landed someplace amazing. Like not just financially, but also just happy with like where they are in the world. And I feel like, you know, anyone who’s listening to this and is in that early part of their journey, absolutely like commit to it, keep going and like, don’t give up. you’ll get there, like it will happen.

John Jantsch (19:41.196)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:02.69)

Got to keep taking swings, right? So Manik, is there some place, I appreciate you dropping by today. Is there some place you’d invite people to connect with you, learn more about Search Atlas, everything you’re up to?

Manick @ Search Atlas (20:04.969)

Definitely.

Manick @ Search Atlas (20:14.451)

Yeah, easy person to find online. You can find me on Instagram at Monique Bonn, at Monique Bonn. I’ve also got a YouTube channel. If you look up search Atlas on YouTube, we do like weekly webinars and Google challenges and train people how to get better rankings on Google using Holistic SEO.

John Jantsch (20:34.06)

Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Manick @ Search Atlas (20:39.527)

Awesome. Thanks, John. Appreciate it.