nadosi.com

John Jantsch (00:03.032)

So voice agents are moving from novelty to revenue infrastructure. And if that’s is if you stop treating them like talking FAQs and start treating them like a role, maybe qualifiers, scheduler, concierge, onboarding guide, retention rep, upsell assistant. That’s what we’re going to talk about today.

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Ryan Mrha. He is a founder of Yodify. Yodify helps creators and brands stay personal at scale by letting them, letting followers call and text an AI that speaks in the creator’s own voice grounded in their content library. So Ryan, welcome to the show.

Ryan Mrha (00:47.59)

Thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (00:48.686)

Did I say, you know, I asked you how to pronounce your last name, but then did I pronounce your O-T-L-F-Y right? Okay. Awesome. So we’re talking about voice AI. So let’s, let’s kind of set the table. There’s a lot, you know, there’s IVRs, there’s LLMs are, you know, participating chat bots. mean, so, so what’s a voice agent?

Ryan Mrha (00:53.748)

Yes, it is Yodify.

Ryan Mrha (01:12.166)

Yeah, so a voice agent, or mean, most agents are just interacting with an LLM. A voice agent is essentially just an LLM that knows it’s supposed to respond in a way that’s like naturally speaking. And then you use another tool to have it actually read that text out loud as it’s coming. Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:18.37)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (01:36.366)

So typically, like if I had a library, if I wanted somebody to be able to answer questions about my business or my service, I would just give it everything I could. And then hope when somebody asked a question, it would access the right thing in giving a response. I is that as simple as it comes?

Ryan Mrha (01:52.634)

Yeah, I mean, essentially that’s what it is. So you want to build a knowledge base, but there’s kind of two components to it. So one is, let’s say all of the episodes that you’ve ever done, and we could take all that text and we could feed that to the LLM that it could use for context. But the other piece is that we also have to make the agent feel like you and act like you in different points that you interact.

John Jantsch (02:11.98)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (02:23.566)

So you mean literally you, like it would sound like they were talking to John Jance. Yeah.

Ryan Mrha (02:27.83)

well, yeah. So, we do also clone the voice. So we could take a lot of your audio and use that to clone your voice. But the thing that we’ve been finding is that a lot of people will say, here’s a prompt, Hey, you’re an LLM be John Jance and here’s all of his episodes. And they’re typically getting pretty poor results with that because you, as say a podcast host, you have a lot of different states.

John Jantsch (02:32.814)

Okay. Yeah.

Ryan Mrha (02:55.37)

Sometimes you may be, I don’t know, explaining something and sometimes you may be asking a question or pushing back on something. And so what we try to do is we try to have a few different LLMs that an agent can call on and can be different versions of you and have different access to pieces of knowledge that you may need at a certain time. So that way it sounds like you, it feels like you, it responds like you.

John Jantsch (03:25.376)

And would it be as simple to say, you know, when I hear you describe that, I’m like, this is when John’s feeling kind of sad and this is when John’s having a good, really good day and happy, or is it really more, this is John in his sales hat and this is John in his customer service hat.

Ryan Mrha (03:32.592)

Yeah

Ryan Mrha (03:42.032)

Yeah, exactly. It’s, going to be the latter. and that’s what’s going to make it feel like you’re actually speaking to a person compared to, you know, just the LLM, because what a lot of people are used to is, speaking with LLM, like over a chat window, you know, chat, GBT or something like that. And that hides a lot of the sort of mistakes, but when you start talking with it, you realize, you know, Very quickly. Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:43.256)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (04:08.706)

Yeah, Yeah, it butchers my name, you know, for example. But, but yeah, and I think so where do you think we are in the world today? Are, you know, at one point, you know, people were like, I hate those things or gosh, I’m talking to a robot and you know, that, but I’ve, get the sense that now as more and more, well, first off, as the technology has gotten better, but as more and more people have had good experiences.

Ryan Mrha (04:13.681)

Mine as well.

John Jantsch (04:37.612)

Do feel like the acceptance to where it’s like, I know I’m talking to AI and I don’t care.

Ryan Mrha (04:43.299)

Yeah, think people, I mean, I really think like 2026, 2027 are going to be the years of like real voice agents. think people have been interacting in these chat functions for a while now, and they’re going to want to start having a more real experience. And kind of like I was describing how we build these agents, it’s going to have to be a little bit more tailored to the experience that the user is looking for. I guess where we’re at in it,

John Jantsch (04:50.392)

Yes.

Ryan Mrha (05:12.291)

I think we’re still actually quite early. A lot of people are not even using any voice agent, for example.

John Jantsch (05:24.28)

So one of the things that I think I picked this up from off of your website, you talk about a voice agent that critically thinks. How is that happening? I mean, again, when I hear that, hear like, you know, they’re actually making decisions. know, they’re not just accessing stuff and predicting what you want to hear.

Ryan Mrha (05:34.874)

Yeah, so.

Ryan Mrha (05:47.377)

Yeah, so without giving away too much of the secret sauce, we use like multiple levels of LLMs, right? And within those, there’s different instructions. Like one may just be orchestrating and another one may be doing an action. Another one may be calling a a different LLM to give it a response. So we break up all of those tasks to be, so that way each

LLM call is like very targeted. and that’s kind of, that’s kind of the mistake that we’re seeing a lot of businesses, like fall into right now is they buy a cool AI tool. It looks great in the demo. And then they, they get their hands on and they’re like, this isn’t working for me. It’s because they’re using like a very general package and the way the LLMs work is like, if you were very specific on what you want, you’re going to get much better results, but it can’t do too much at once.

John Jantsch (06:44.686)

Sure. Yeah, you can’t just brain dump the entire organization’s knowledge base in there and hope it finds what you’re looking for. So I’m curious about this because I have, you know, the way people are buying today is really changing, right? I mean, they’re doing a lot more research. They don’t want to do a sales call. I mean, they want to get all the way to almost to the point of deciding and then have like a consultation, you know? And so…

Ryan Mrha (06:51.524)

Unfortunately, yeah. Right.

Ryan Mrha (07:09.873)

Definitely.

John Jantsch (07:11.634)

I have a theory that AI agents are going to play a role in that because where people will actually offer them, not ready to talk to a human, talk to the AI voice agent, they can answer all your questions and they’re not going to hard sell you. mean, they’re not going to… Do you feel like there’s a point in the buyer’s journey where that’s actually going to be seen as a value add as opposed to a convenience?

Ryan Mrha (07:19.858)

Mm-hmm.

Ryan Mrha (07:35.155)

I love that you brought this up because we were actually planning on doing this. Yeah. You know, just like when you go to a website now and you, you know, a little chat thing comes up and it’s like, Hey, maybe I can answer a few questions. Yeah. The technology is there to be like, you know, take it that much further. And the reality, especially like in software and technology, a lot of the sales and procurement process is just about making sure that you get the legal documents passed back and forth.

John Jantsch (07:38.339)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:03.79)

Mm-hmm.

Ryan Mrha (08:04.666)

I think that we’re going to see a lot more of those roles focus on that piece and then the answering questions and explaining the product. People don’t want to be sold. They just want to ask their questions. They want to get to experience it. So in some ways, AI is kind of perfect for that.

John Jantsch (08:23.532)

Yeah. And, and they can hang up, right? I mean, it’s like, I’m not getting the answer. I went, I’m just going to hang up. You know, it’s like, I’m not going to be rude to a person maybe, but you know, this, this is, can just hang up on this. So.

Ryan Mrha (08:28.069)

Yeah.

Ryan Mrha (08:35.45)

And on top of that, you can do that at three in the morning as well. Right. Like you don’t have to be waiting for that, that call next week and they’re busy or we got to go to this conference and you know, it’s instant.

John Jantsch (08:38.112)

Yeah, right,

John Jantsch (08:45.806)

So let’s talk that through. Let’s, I think you also use the term purpose built. Let’s, let’s walk through the framework of giving a voice agent a job description. And then, and then maybe let’s explore what the limitations are. So let’s, let’s go with a typical kind of business development agent. Somebody buys a low cost product on your website and you want to upsell them to the higher cost. You know, can a voice agent reach out or is that really more of a, we’re going to train that person to be able to.

answer anybody’s questions that they might have about what’s next.

Ryan Mrha (09:20.476)

So there’s full tools available already that have this like full, we’ve experimented a lot with one of them for building some of our agents, just because the functionality that they come with where they can already call, they can lead the conversation. They’ll have sort of what you can, like if you can imagine like a timeline and then along that timeline, you have different prompts. And when the agent…

John Jantsch (09:36.173)

Mm-hmm.

Ryan Mrha (09:46.535)

gets to a certain criteria, it meets that, it goes to the next prompt. And so these tools are very cool. You can have a conversation with it and feel like you’re speaking with a person and you can get very advanced with it. can remember your names or your ticket number or things and reuse them later and go update the database when it’s done. And on top of that, you can use it a thousand times at the same second instead of

John Jantsch (09:50.86)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (10:05.389)

Yeah.

Ryan Mrha (10:15.666)

just like an individual.

John Jantsch (10:18.158)

So do, do, you, are we at a point where some people are feeling duped? Like, you know, where it’s like, thought I was talking to a human and even if they got the result they wanted, it still felt, you know, they still felt sort of deceived.

Ryan Mrha (10:36.506)

I was on a call the other day and I was trying to ask the person, like, are you a AI agent? And I think they felt offended if they, because maybe they weren’t, but I’m still not convinced they weren’t, you know, because, but there’s, certain tells that, you know, if you speak with these all the time, you’re like, okay, there’s a delay here. And, the accent is changing a little bit and things like that. so yeah, I think people.

John Jantsch (10:42.798)

reasons.

John Jantsch (10:48.641)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:59.469)

Yeah.

Ryan Mrha (11:03.984)

I think people don’t want to feel that they’re talking to an agent yet, but I do think that’s going to change.

John Jantsch (11:09.762)

Well, and do you think we’re at a point where, and I’m not saying disclose it,

because it’s an ethical thing, but just to disclose it because people want to, it’s a transparent thing. It’s like, Hey, talk to our AI advisor. They’re, you know, they have all the answers for you. So, I mean, it’s like right up front, even though it feels like a conversation, I know it’s not. I mean, you think we’re, that’s the, that’s kind of the crossroads right now.

Ryan Mrha (11:30.492)

Yeah.

Ryan Mrha (11:34.897)

I don’t know. I’m one of those people that, you know, do like, do you want to share your data? And I’m like, yes, take all my data and customize my experience and things like that. but I could imagine there’s a lot of people who want to be very private. yeah, I think that’s going to be a hurdle that we have to, we have to face. And it is going to be a deciding factor, like, how people decide to do business with certain companies, you know, it should at least be on the website.

John Jantsch (11:40.974)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (11:59.148)

Yeah,

I forgot to tell you when we booked this interview, I do need your social security number.

Ryan Mrha (12:06.642)

No problem.

John Jantsch (12:08.91)

Okay. Now, so, so to walk me through, if I came to you said, Ryan, need this, um, business development agent. Um, like what’s how, how’s the process go? What do you need from me? What, you know, how do we put guardrails on it? I mean, what, what’s the pro how’s the process work?

Ryan Mrha (12:25.872)

Yeah, so we’re always going to start with like a single small use case and try to like nail that down and then kind of build things on top of it. We’re also going to just try to like, like for me, it’s very big about matching to a brand in brand voice and making sure that it’s consistent with the experience you want your users to have. We build a lot more agents that are in the

John Jantsch (12:44.27)

Hmm.

Ryan Mrha (12:53.776)

Like we have a big one for facilitation. So maybe it’s not trying to sell you something, but you still want it to experience like a full facilitator. So what that looks like is breaking down what makes a good facilitator and then building all those different pieces, putting them together, matching it to your brand and letting you use it in your company.

John Jantsch (13:09.591)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:20.952)

Do let’s just go with a really, really basic receptionist. mean, is that a, is that a use for this or is that to almost too basic?

Ryan Mrha (13:30.489)

No, I think, I think basic is good. yeah, you, could definitely, you can have a, an agent receive a call quickly, book an appointment with you. kind of like what you talked about or asked about, are people going to feel kind of duped by it? I think there’s a lot of scenarios where people are actually going to appreciate it more. And maybe, maybe it takes some time to get there, but I mean, if you can offer me a product at a lower cost and because I speak to AI agent and like.

John Jantsch (13:47.522)

This is

John Jantsch (13:51.671)

Sure. Sure.

Ryan Mrha (14:00.476)

great, you

John Jantsch (14:01.474)

Well, and I think for a lot of routine things that people want to do, I know personally, things like, you know, once a year I go get contacts, you know, and I just want to be able to go on there and schedule an appointment. I don’t want to call somebody to do that. And so I think there are a lot of things like that, that are going to be AI enabled that, you know, that people are going to actually want and appreciate. Because as you said, it’s three o’clock in the morning. I want to do that. Right.

Ryan Mrha (14:10.875)

Mm-hmm.

Ryan Mrha (14:14.193)

Mm-hmm.

Ryan Mrha (14:23.762)

Definitely.

Ryan Mrha (14:28.25)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It did change the game. And it can also be a hybrid approach where, you know, yeah, I hit zero if you want to speak to that person, but.

John Jantsch (14:39.468)

I know one of the fears that people sometimes have is that, you know, the AI agents going to hallucinate, it’s going to be wrong. It’s going to actually say something that is maybe counter to the brand. How do you, you know, are there, there’s probably some instances where you should never use this. It would be one thing, but, but, but how do you also put the guardrails on?

Ryan Mrha (15:03.91)

Yeah, so we do put guardrails in the prompts, but I’m a big fan of the Gemini models because of that, even though maybe they’re a little bit less fun or something like to talk to, they definitely hallucinate less. So that’s probably the biggest step you can take. But it’s also just about being specific. If you give the agent the right context of what it’s trying to do, then it doesn’t have to go fill in the blanks itself. So a lot of it

John Jantsch (15:14.316)

Yeah.

Ryan Mrha (15:33.82)

comes out in testing, we’ll find, okay, why did it come up with that? And then we’ll go back, we’ll revisit the prompts and find out, we maybe overemphasize this or didn’t give it clarity on what to do here. One thing you can also do is just, give it like a document in your knowledge base, kind of where it can find things. If it doesn’t find something, here’s some ways you can respond.

John Jantsch (15:50.604)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (15:57.198)

So if you’re using Gemini, then could you put a lot of these sources in like a notebook LL or something or, and then be able to tap it that that make that be its library.

Ryan Mrha (16:08.338)

Connect directly to notebook. I have not tried that. I do love notebook. Do you use it a lot?

John Jantsch (16:11.651)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:14.968)

Yeah. Well, Jim and I, yeah, Jim and I does connect directly to notebook as a source. now, yeah, yeah. So it’s, I’ve been shortcutting training because I’ll build the notebook LMS with 300 documents in it. And then, you know, just be able to say, source these three. so it kind of gives you, it’s a, it’s a good best of both worlds. your model is voice and phone number, right? Voice and phone call.

Ryan Mrha (16:21.039)

okay. Yeah.

Ryan Mrha (16:42.318)

Yes, so the Yodify model is phone. We can text it. We can also deploy it within the web app, just like the service we’re using here.

John Jantsch (16:56.27)

But there is no avatar. There’s no video component to it. It’s just voice. Yeah.

Ryan Mrha (16:59.538)

No, the way we see it is that a lot of people are going to want to be able to have conversations with their creator, the creators that they follow. So, you know, maybe when you were a bit of a smaller creator, you could interact with all of the different fans and everything and respond to every comment. And then as you get bigger, it becomes more and more difficult. But that doesn’t mean people still don’t want to communicate. we can do that with sort of

John Jantsch (17:14.113)

Mm-hmm.

Ryan Mrha (17:26.95)

them being able to just text you directly and have conversations and, I’m going through this. What’s your take on it? And yeah, it’s not the real thing, but it is, you know, still valuable for a lot of people.

John Jantsch (17:38.83)

So where do you feel like you fit in the category? Is 11 Labs a competitor or are they just tangentially related? mean, where do you fit in the category? Yeah, okay.

Ryan Mrha (17:53.587)

We use 11 Labs. yeah, they provide voices. They do a lot of great stuff. We combine the different pieces, the different tools that these producers are making and try to bring them to market. I think there’s a lot of cool tools out there, but people haven’t…

John Jantsch (18:01.197)

Yeah.

Ryan Mrha (18:20.316)

figured out really like great use cases that are going to enhance people’s lives. So we’re trying to, you know, meet them there.

John Jantsch (18:22.796)

Yes.

John Jantsch (18:26.446)

Yeah. Yeah. I kind of laugh at some of the tools are like, well, okay, it’s cool. can do that, but like, why, you know, where, how, you know, would you use that? So, so if somebody’s listening and they’re like, Hey, I want to, I want to try this out like next month. Um, what’s the, let me give you a concrete example. I have a marketing agency, so you can use that as the example. Um, what would be the smallest kind of safest experiment that you think a marketing agency could.

Ryan Mrha (18:34.69)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Ryan Mrha (18:43.378)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:54.84)

could do that would still provide ROI, either in marketing or for their clients or just even in efficiencies in the business.

Ryan Mrha (19:04.301)

you mean sort of to prototype themselves?

John Jantsch (19:06.22)

Yeah, yeah, to kind of give it a test, like a pilot.

Ryan Mrha (19:10.458)

Yeah, I would say, I mean, chat GPT has these, I think they’re called GPTs. I think that’s a nice way to test something. Yeah. I think that’s a nice way to sort of test. can upload a few files and like talk with it be like, is this interesting for us? Definitely have a few customers try it because there’s no point in building something that your customers don’t want. And then, yeah, if you’re getting a lot of good reactions, then you can, you know, engage us or we can point you in the right direction to.

John Jantsch (19:17.634)

Yeah, custom GPTs, yeah. Right.

Ryan Mrha (19:40.262)

to somebody that would.

John Jantsch (19:41.176)

Well, I guess I asking specifically about Yodelfine. Like if somebody wanted to do a pilot, came to you and said, we heard the show and we want to do a pilot, but we want to start really small. Is there a place that you would say, hey, this is a small, safe experiment that I think you’ll get some value from?

Ryan Mrha (19:50.15)

Yeah.

Ryan Mrha (19:59.729)

Yeah. So what we would do is we would probably do like a single prompt LLM. So very, very basic, which is basically what I told you we don’t do, but it’s, kind of the starting thing that you can play around with. We’d have like a single prompt. We’d upload a few of your, your files. And then we would let you call it and be like, you know, maybe we do like a very quick and dirty, like voice clone and we’ll say like, okay, is this interesting for you? Maybe show it to a few your customers, get some feedback. And then.

John Jantsch (20:07.982)

Yeah.

Ryan Mrha (20:28.454)

Yeah, we have different ways we can price it. We like to be an additional revenue stream for creators. But yeah, it could be an ad agency. We can build all kinds of agents. But for our creators, we try to be an additional revenue stream. So maybe they already have a paid tier, and they can incorporate it in there and add $0.02 on or something like that.

John Jantsch (20:50.99)

Gotcha. Okay. Well, again, appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the duct tape marketing podcast. Is there some place you’d invite people to connect with you learn more about YOLOFi?

Ryan Mrha (21:00.57)

Yeah, so LinkedIn is my main social media. So you can find me on LinkedIn, Ryan Murha. Yeah, we have yotify.com. And then that’s actually a brand that belongs to another bigger project, Methodic, which is actually going to be launching here, the beta version. So if you’re interested in checking out AI facilitation, would be awesome to get some beta users.

John Jantsch (21:24.366)

Awesome again, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully maybe we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Ryan Mrha (21:30.685)

Sounds great, thanks for having me.

John Jantsch (21:32.066)

Thanks, Russ.

Upskilling Your Team for What’s Next

Upskilling Your Team for What’s Next written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch the Full Episode:

Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Rob Levin, serial
entrepreneur, chairman and co-founder of Work Better Now, and author of
The New Talent Playbook: The Ultimate Guide for Building Your Dream Team.

With over 30 years of experience helping small and mid-sized businesses solve persistent
talent challenges, Rob shares why the traditional hiring “playbook” no longer works. He
explains how the pandemic, generational shifts, remote work, and artificial intelligence
have fundamentally changed the talent landscape.

The conversation explores the hidden talent crisis facing SMBs, why culture is more critical
than ever, how to rethink KPIs in a remote-first world, and what it really means to become
an AI-first organization. If you’re still managing talent like it’s 2016, this episode offers
a roadmap for building a future-ready team.

Guest Bio: Rob Levin

Rob Levin is a serial entrepreneur and business growth expert with more than three decades
of experience helping small and mid-sized businesses thrive. He is the chairman and co-founder
of Work Better Now, a company that empowers U.S.-based SMBs to access highly skilled remote
professionals, particularly from Latin America, to overcome hiring bottlenecks and build
high-performing teams.

Rob is the author of The New Talent Playbook: The Ultimate Guide for Building Your Dream Team,
where he outlines a modern approach to talent strategy in an era defined by remote work,
rapid technological change, and AI disruption.

Key Takeaways

1. The Talent Crisis Is Really a Talent Shift

Despite headlines about layoffs, many small and mid-sized businesses still struggle to fill
critical roles. The skills needed to succeed in large enterprises often do not translate to
the owner-minded, adaptable talent required in SMBs.

2. The Old Hiring Playbook Is Obsolete

Many business owners are still operating as if it’s 2016. Power dynamics have shifted, top
performers have more leverage, and younger generations prioritize culture and meaning at work
more than previous generations.

3. Culture Is a Strategic Advantage

A clearly defined set of core values is the foundation of a strong culture—especially in remote
and hybrid environments. Companies should hire and fire based on core values and intentionally
build a culture that embraces change.

4. Remote Teams Require Structure and Over-Communication

In a remote environment, clarity and communication must be intentional. Weekly meetings,
consistent updates, and well-defined KPIs are essential to maintaining alignment and accountability.

5. KPIs Benefit Employees as Much as Employers

Well-designed KPIs are not just management tools—they give employees clarity on expectations and
what it means to “win” in their role. A lack of KPIs often signals unclear leadership rather than
poor employee performance.

6. Upskilling Is a Competitive Imperative

As technology and AI reshape roles, companies must identify the new capabilities they need and
aggressively invest in training. Affordable and high-quality education is widely available, and
businesses should leverage it.

7. Business Owners Must Lead the AI Shift

Before expecting teams to use AI effectively, business owners must gain hands-on experience
themselves. Understanding AI’s capabilities firsthand enables leaders to redesign workflows,
not just automate existing tasks.

8. Move from Doing the Work to Managing AI

The future of many roles will involve managing, refining, and validating AI output rather than
executing routine tasks. Organizations must help employees transition from task execution to AI
supervision and optimization.

9. Become AI-First, Not AI-Improved

Rather than using AI to enhance existing workflows, companies should rethink processes from the
ground up with AI doing much of the heavy lifting. This mindset shift can dramatically improve
productivity and scalability.

10. Global Talent Expands Your Competitive Edge

Expanding your hiring reach beyond local markets—across the U.S., Latin America, and beyond—opens
access to skilled professionals and helps solve persistent hiring bottlenecks.

Great Moments from the Episode

00:03 – Introduction to Rob Levin and The New Talent Playbook
01:14 – Why the talent market has fundamentally changed since the pandemic
02:15 – From “They’re lucky to have a job” to employee leverage
04:11 – Why layoffs don’t solve the SMB talent shortage
06:02 – Understanding the hidden talent crisis
08:27 – Identifying new capabilities and upskilling your team
10:53 – Why business owners must take hands-on AI training
11:56 – Becoming an AI-first organization
13:20 – Why culture matters more than ever
14:23 – Managing culture in remote and fractional teams
16:41 – Why KPIs are more for employees than employers
18:26 – Using AI as a thought partner for performance measurement
19:45 – What Rob would update in the AI chapter today
21:28 – Addressing employee fears about AI replacing jobs
22:42 – Where to find The New Talent Playbook and connect with Rob

Quotes

“There’s such a long list of changes, but the biggest one is that the old talent playbook just doesn’t work anymore.”

“KPIs are actually more for the employee than the employer. They give clarity on what winning looks like.”

“Don’t just use AI to improve a workflow. Redesign the workflow so AI is doing the heavy lifting.”

“You’re only scratching the surface of what AI can do for your company if you’re not using it as a thought partner.”

Resources Mentioned

The New Talent Playbook: The Ultimate Guide for Building Your Dream Team by Rob Levin
Work Better Now – Nearshore talent solutions for SMBs
National Federation of Independent Business (NFIB) hiring trend surveys

Connect with Rob Levin

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:03.266)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Rob Levin. He’s a serial entrepreneur and business growth expert with more than 30 years of experience helping small and mid-sized businesses thrive by solving their most persistent talent challenges. He’s the chairman and co-founder of Work Better Now, a company that empowers US-based SMBs to access highly skilled remote professionals, particularly.

from Latin America to overcome hiring bottlenecks and build teams that drive growth and innovation. But today we’re going to focus on his newest book, the new talent playbook, the ultimate guide for building your dream team. So Rob, welcome to the show.

Rob Levin (00:46.516)

Thanks, John. Great to see you.

John Jantsch (00:48.632)

So.

You were before we even got started, you were talking about the speed of change and that’s really what’s going to be my first question. I mean, you’ve worked with, I’ve worked with small businesses for decades. in your view, what’s changed the most about hiring in the last, I was going to say five years, but I I could say five months, I guess. And what, what prompted you to write the new talent, playbook?

Rob Levin (01:14.184)

Yeah, and I’m going to if it’s okay, John, I want to go beyond hiring. I just want to talk about talent in general. And a ton has changed. And in fact, what the reason the reason I wrote the book is I still I saw how the talent market changed. And I can talk a little bit about that. But I also saw how business owners were still

John Jantsch (01:18.638)

See you soon.

Rob Levin (01:35.142)

running the same talent playbooks, if you will, as if it was 2016. And a lot really changed in the pandemic. So let’s talk about what’s changed. There’s such a long list. I’ll mention a few things. Number one, younger, let’s put it this way. And now it’s arguable whether this happens every generation or so or not. But younger generations in the workforce, at least I’m hearing this from business owners like myself, Gen Xers.

baby boomers, the younger generations of the workforce work differently than the older ones do. And I think a lot of business owners are having trouble understanding that. The biggest change perhaps out of all of them, and I have so many of them, but the one I think to focus in on is…

It’s and you wouldn’t know this from reading the headlines, but it’s there’s I used to call it a talent crisis. In fact, in the book, I call it a talent crisis. I’m not calling it a talent shift where it’s really hard for small and mid-sized businesses to find the talent that they need. And this cascades to the point where it also means that they may be holding on to employees that are not the right people for them to grow going going forward. And and one way to think about

how people’s mindsets have not yet changed is you and I are old enough to remember when you used to hear bosses say something like, they’re lucky to have a job, right? And there’s still people with a similar type mentality and that has totally changed. A lot of the power, if you will, and I don’t really like to look at it that way, but it’s a way that people understand has shifted the employee side, particularly those top performers that we all want in our business.

John Jantsch (03:07.862)

Right, right.

John Jantsch (03:20.32)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (03:26.638)

You know, it’s interesting you met at the outset of that. You mentioned the idea that, you know, probably every generation thinks this and I, and I, I suspect there’s some truth to that, but it feels like the gap’s bigger now because it’s, it feels like a bigger shift. Again, I’ve only been through one generation, so to speak. Uh, but it feels like it is, um, you know, talk to me a little bit about the fact that I like, I’m talking to a lot of people, uh, uh, a lot of my peers, a lot of your peers, you know, have kids getting out of college. Um, and.

They’re saying, you know, it’s terrible out there. The job market’s, you know, absolute disaster out there, you know, for people coming out of college. And yet, you you just referenced the idea that the leverage is actually kind of with the job seeker. So how do you kind of balance that?

Rob Levin (04:11.624)

That’s a great, great question. I have two kids in college and I’m worried about their job prospects. I’m actually telling them to start their own businesses. So if you look at the headlines, the headlines are mass layoffs, right? True. The headlines are AI is going to take jobs away, which I believe is true. And it may even start, it may start to be happening right now. That said,

John Jantsch (04:20.7)

I’m

Rob Levin (04:39.634)

You know, in a business, when you’re running your own business, you don’t have an HR department, you don’t have a training department, or most companies don’t have a training department. What are you dealing with? You need people that have experience, that have an owner’s mentality, you need that in a small business, you don’t get that, you know, somebody working in a large business rarely has that, you don’t necessarily need that skill set. In fact, you probably don’t want that skill set in a larger business.

And you need somebody you you meet need somebody with at least some experience Those people are hard to find and the thing also thing to remember is like well, you know, you might say well All of these layoffs are happening So these people are now available the skill sets that you need to thrive in a large business are not necessarily the same skill sets That are needed in a small or mid-sized business and the data backs this up You’re probably familiar with NFIB National Federation and it’s been around forever. They do they do a survey or poll. I think it’s

John Jantsch (05:31.79)

Sure.

Rob Levin (05:36.682)

every month. And you’ll routinely see, I think it’s about a third of small and mid-sized businesses cannot fill roles.

John Jantsch (05:45.198)

Thanks

John Jantsch (05:48.504)

So one of the things you talk a lot about and you mentioned it a couple of times, I wonder if you could kind of lay out this idea of the hidden talent crisis that you’ve really been speaking so much about.

Rob Levin (06:02.418)

Yeah, it’s pretty much what we’re talking about. It’s just really hard to find great talent, at least within the US, and we could talk about.

One of the chapters of book is about, you know, expanding your reach, not only expanding it so that you can hire people remotely throughout the U.S. or maybe throughout North America, but also Latin America, even even Asia. So you have that and a lot of companies also where they’re struggling is the other thing that’s changing beyond talent is everything else in business, right? So technology is driving so much change. A.I. is, of course, a great example. I don’t have to tell you marketing has changed how much in the past five years.

John Jantsch (06:34.638)

Yeah, yeah.

Rob Levin (06:43.408)

compared to the past 20 or 30 years, right? And what does this mean for small and mid-sized businesses? It means that they need new capabilities. And their current employees, if they…

John Jantsch (06:45.102)

Sure. Yep.

Rob Levin (06:54.79)

Hopefully there’s an opportunity to upskill them, which is a big part that I think I dedicate about half of a chapter to upskilling your current employees to bring in those new capabilities in your company. if your people are not upskillable, if you will, then you have a serious problem on your hands, especially if it’s hard to hire the people that have those capabilities that you need to bring into your company.

John Jantsch (07:10.894)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (07:20.558)

Yeah, so there’s a couple of things to unpack there. I would suggest, you know, a lot of people talking about all these jobs going away. In one hand, they are, but I think what they’re doing is they’re shifting to a new set of, you know, capabilities that somebody needs to have. So yeah, some of the routine stuff that you just needed somebody that, you know, that could put in the hours to do the tasks, those are certainly are going to be things that AI does pretty well. And those jobs are going to go away, but

by the same sense, this idea then of who’s making decisions about what’s good and what’s bad, what’s the right decision, what’s not, what’s on brand, what’s not. I I think those people are going to remain humans, but they might either need to be different humans than you have today, or as you said, upskill. So how do you take somebody that you hired essentially to do tasks, because that’s how you saw the role, who now really needs to do something that

you didn’t hire them for, they may be capable of doing, but you didn’t hire them for that. I mean, how do you make that assessment, but then also how do you make that leap?

Rob Levin (08:27.24)

Yeah, so let’s do this in a general sense and then we can drill down to AI because I think AI is very specific.

situation, although AI probably has a lot to do with the new capabilities that a lot of companies, need. So the first thing to do is identify the new capability you need in your company. So, you know, I’m talking to Mr. Marketing here. So, you know, the marketing capabilities have are, are, changing. And the first thing you have to do is recognize, well, what is it that you need? And then the question is, is, you know, do I have somebody on the marketing team that is up skillable? Do they have the.

Do they have the desire to learn something new? Do they have that ability? Do they have the ability to not only learn it, but then bring that capability internal? And here’s the good news about all of this is that

the training, you if it’s a new capability, you’re have to look external for training, which is totally fine. In fact, companies should get really aggressive about this because there’s so much good training out there. Much of it is low cost, if not free. You know, for example, on the marketing side, HubSpot, all of the major CRM and marketing platforms are all offering training, teaching you exactly what needs to be done. Because a lot of this a lot of the changes in marketing, of course, are technology based. So again, identifying what you know, what is

John Jantsch (09:27.224)

Yes.

Rob Levin (09:46.146)

it that I need and then finding the person in your company, giving them the time to do it, obviously paying for any fees that might be there and having an understanding with that person that look, I’m going to invest in the training for you. This is good for you and your career. I do expect that you bring those capabilities in and then when they do that, be prepared to give them a promotion and the raise that they’re probably looking for. Everybody wins. talking about AI, AI in

particular, my personal opinion on this, having done this myself, is that I think every business owner needs to go through a hands on AI course first, you need to really understand what the capabilities of AI are. Before you can start to look at people on your team. All right, I need you to, you know, pick up this AI capability, let’s say with marketing or with operations or, etc. I think the owner needs to have some level of understanding

And in my opinion is that you need to do some hands-on AI training yourself first. I think everybody needs to do that.

John Jantsch (10:53.646)

Well, I think in a lot of ways, what’s holding some people back is it’s going to require, I think, a total mindset shift. You know, there are definitely people who are looking at AI and just saying, oh, we can do that task that used to be done by this person faster, you know, as opposed to like restructure how they even think about their organization. And so I think, I think in some cases, you know, instead of diving into how does this tool work, it’s more how do I structure my entire organization, you know, for a new reality.

Rob Levin (11:23.698)

Right, and that’s why I think.

that the owners AI training that they should go through has to be hands on because then you’ll actually start to see what the when you actually start to build something with AI, a light bulb will go will probably go off in your head and you’ll see what what what AI is capable of. And then we’re using the term at work better now. We’re using the term AI first. We’re now which which what that means is not to use AI to improve an existing workflow. But let’s have let’s have that workflow totally

John Jantsch (11:29.934)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:36.13)

Right.

John Jantsch (11:47.726)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rob Levin (11:56.304)

redesign where AI is doing a lot of the heavy lifting. And of course, that’s going to come with a lot of retraining of our team to go from doing the work to managing the AI agent or what bot or whatever you want to call it that’s going to be doing the work. you know, there’s another fundamental thing that really should happen.

before all of this. And this is a big part of how the talent game has changed a lot over the past 10 years with an emphasis on the past few. So culture in your group that has always been important, it is by far more important than ever. It is so important today. And why is that? Well, number one, I just give you a few data, not data points, but sound bites for this. Number one, the younger generations, and there are, there’s plenty of good workers

John Jantsch (12:30.051)

Yes.

Rob Levin (12:47.082)

those younger generations. Culture matters a lot to them. Culture, meaning, right? So that alone should wake everybody up and say, hey, this isn’t something maybe I focused on in the past, but I’m gonna start focusing on it now. And I dedicate a whole chapter in the book on it.

But also, not only just having a healthy culture, but let’s have a culture of accepting change and figuring out how to harness change as opposed to, you know, kind of push it off to the side, which a lot of people are still doing.

John Jantsch (13:20.366)

So there’s a couple issues I was going to bring culture up. So perfect segue. There’s a couple of things that I know are dear and dear, dear and dear to you because it really impacts the business work better now structure. So when you mentioned culture, you know, a lot of organizations, small businesses today, you know, this used to just be, you know, a foreign thing, but today have fractional just about everything. They bring in contractors to do certain jobs.

Certainly Work Better Now’s entire business model is placing employees who are remote. So how do you manage culture? It’s obviously one way to do it in an organization where everybody’s there, they’re all in the seats, you have the company lunches. I mean, you do a lot of the things that can build some of that. How do you manage that when you have part-time people, you have remote people, you have…

you folks that are from different cultures, you know, for example, as Work Better Now really supports them. I’m curious if you ever get any pushback from that, you know, that very thing.

Rob Levin (14:23.604)

We used to get a little bit, it’s going away rapidly. So in terms of our experience, but what I will also tell you is that in my opinion, and this has worked for us, it worked better now, in my opinion, the starting point is defining your core values, right? So in other words, your core values are essentially like, what do want our culture to be?

John Jantsch (14:40.334)

All right.

Rob Levin (14:45.364)

So for example, some of ours is we put our talent first, we believe in excellence, and so on and so forth. And we recognize on those, we hire based on them. When we have to fire, we fire based on those. So there’s a little bit of clarity there, starting with those core values. Then the next thing you do in a remote environment, and by the way, it doesn’t matter whether somebody’s in three states over or the next continent over, remote’s remote, is we over-communicate.

We over communicate. we have a weekly staff meeting that we have. We have teams. have updates on teams. We reiterate anything that’s important on email. It’s really, really important to over communicate. Then I’ll also add that KPIs in a remote environment, KPIs are important period, but KPIs for every job and several KPIs when possible for every single role in the company is extremely

important because at least now you have something you can measure people on. And then also, this is one that I only talk a little bit about it in the book, but it’s been coming up in conversations a lot more lately, is something as simple as clarity.

You know, I was talking with a business owner last week. can’t remember what the role was that they were discussing in their company. It was actually in my, in one of my CEO peer groups. And I said, you know, the way you’re talking about this, I don’t think you made it very clear. And this is a very polished business owner. I don’t think you made it very clear what your expectations were. And then I don’t think you had the proper check-ins to make sure that this person was on track. So when people are in the same office.

It’s a little easier, right? There’s the water cooler. You just kind of roll your chair back and say, hey, how are we doing with this project? In a remote environment, you need a little bit more structure. That’s also where the communications come into play.

John Jantsch (16:41.72)

Yeah. You you mentioned that KPIs and I think a lot of people don’t realize that those are a two way street as well. You know, I mean, lot of business owners are like, I’m giving you these so that, you know, I know if you’re on track measuring you, but I’ve talked to a lot of employees. They’re like, thank God you gave me these. I have, so I know what I’m supposed to do here. I know how to win. Because I think a lot of times it’s just like, do the work and you know, hope everybody’s happy. And so I think that,

Rob Levin (17:01.748)

That’s right.

John Jantsch (17:11.22)

we sometimes probably underestimate those KPIs are as much for that employee as they are for us.

Rob Levin (17:17.492)

think they’re actually more for the employee. And if anything, when I see a company that doesn’t have KPIs, more often than not, what has happened is that the employer or the manager, whomever it is who has the responsibility of overseeing somebody, has not really figured it out themselves what’s important in its role. So how can you have clarity?

John Jantsch (17:20.13)

More? agree.

John Jantsch (17:36.812)

Right? Right. Right. Yeah.

Rob Levin (17:41.172)

you know, when you yourself don’t know. And it’s not okay to say, I know it when I see it, because it doesn’t work when you’re on the receiving end.

John Jantsch (17:47.438)

Yeah. You know, and one of the beauties of AI quite frankly is that you can go to a chat GPT or whatever tool, you know, even if it hasn’t been trained that much and you can actually ask it what here’s our goal. You here’s what we’re trying to do. What should we be measuring? I mean, instead of trying to sit around and go, okay, I need to write all these job descriptions and KPIs or whatnot, you know, just, just have a conversation with these tools and, and it, you know, it,

may not be tuned 100 % to you because it’s kind of doing the average of what the world does out there, but it may be a great way to start rather than you just saying, don’t know where to start.

Rob Levin (18:26.514)

Yeah. You know, I, what, what, one of the things that frustrates me even pre AI, but certainly now in this AI world is when somebody’s like, well, I’m going to do it this way, as opposed to actually trying to research the best practice, which pre AI you can do based on an internet search now with AI, right. it’s, it’s inexcusable to not have tapped into this wealth of knowledge, right.

John Jantsch (18:42.914)

Sure.

John Jantsch (18:51.554)

Benchmark your industry no matter what the size your business is, right? Yeah, exactly.

Rob Levin (18:54.098)

Yeah. And by the way, you know, yes, absolutely, you should be doing this and for every role and that’ll help you come up with the KPIs and projects and even qualitative ways to assess people and communicate what the role is all about. But let’s also be clear, John, and you and I know this and I hope everybody’s understanding this. You’re only scratching the surface about what with what AI can do for your company by using it as a thought partner, which is what we’re talking about.

John Jantsch (19:21.966)

Yeah, yeah. I’m curious, what have you learned since you wrote the book and since you’ve been out there talking to people about the book? I asked that question specifically or maybe because I’ve written books and I just always know that like I’ll have conversations or I’ll go on speaking and somebody will say something to me. I’ll go, dang, I wish I would have put that in the book. That’s great. I’m curious if you had any of those a-ha’s.

Rob Levin (19:45.78)

Well, it’s slightly different. The biggest aha I have is what we were just talking about. the AI chapter of my book was written a little over a year ago. you know, now what’s in there still applies, which what I said a little over a year ago was experiment and encourage everybody to experiment. By now, yeah, you have to do that, by the way, you should do that. Now it’s take a course and figure out.

What are some of the biggest challenges you have in your business and how can AI help you with those challenges, not only as a thought partner, but actually in doing the work? then you have to start to think about…

And if I was writing the book today, this is what would be in it regarding AI is how do you get your team to go from doing the work to managing the AI, refining it, checking the results? Because AI is not going to get it perfect all the time, but it’s going to do a great job in a lot less time. And again, we’re only scratching the surface on what the capabilities are.

John Jantsch (20:52.152)

Well, it’s interesting. mean, you could, you could really point to that as maybe the major mind shift that the companies need to have is to start encouraging employees to, to do just what you said. How can you get AI to do this work? Especially a lot of the routine kind of stuff. But I’m sure you’re hearing from people that are, you know, the employee is like, yeah, work myself out of a job. Great. So I do see that fear, you know, is that a lot of companies are just going into people and saying,

figure out how to use AI to do your job. And I think the implied issue with that is like, then I won’t have a job.

Rob Levin (21:28.884)

Right. Which, which, you know, I guess it’s on us employers to, to manage that. And I can tell you what we’re doing at Work Better Now, which is we’re telling everybody, look, this is the direction we’re going in. We’re going to provide the training and then it’s on the employee really to pick up the ball and to do it. And we told everybody we are not, we have no plans on any layoffs. We are expanding, we’re growing. And with AI, we just hopefully are not going to have to add.

John Jantsch (21:35.939)

Yeah.

Rob Levin (21:58.46)

a lot of headcount, right? And yet, you know, we’ll we should see improved outcomes. And I think this is an opportunity for all of our employees, because we are going to work, I guess you can say kind of like pioneering, you know, company or space in our size. And, you know, we we’re making it very clear, like, look, as long as you figure this out, again, we’re providing the training, you know, your your job is safe. In fact, your job is going to be more important

John Jantsch (22:12.812)

Yes.

Rob Levin (22:28.374)

than ever.

John Jantsch (22:29.944)

Yes, be more productive. Well, Robert, I appreciate you taking the moment to stop by the Ductate Marketing Podcast, anywhere you want to invite people to find out more, to connect with you, of course, but then also find out more about your work and find out more about your writing.

Rob Levin (22:42.472)

Yeah, you can just search for New Talent Playbook if you want to pick up a copy of the book or New Talent Playbook Substack or podcast. Just Google that in and it’ll pop right up. And of course, if you are looking for offshore talent, near shore talent in our case, that’s WorkBetterNow.com.

John Jantsch (22:59.286)

Well again, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully you’ve dug out of that snowstorm in New York.

Rob Levin (23:04.936)

Yeah, thanks, John, and great to see you. Thanks for having me on show.

Build a Business People Can’t Imagine Losing

Build a Business People Can’t Imagine Losing written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch The Full Episode:

Episode Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Marcus Buckingham, renowned researcher, strengths movement pioneer, and bestselling author, about his latest book,
Design Love In: How to Unleash the Most Powerful Force in Business.

While “love” may seem like an unconventional business term, Buckingham makes a research-backed case that love is the strongest predictor of productive human behavior. From customer loyalty to employee engagement and retention, organizations that intentionally design experiences people love consistently outperform those that focus solely on process, perks, or performance metrics.

Buckingham introduces Experience Intelligence, a leadership capability centered on
intentionally designing holistic experiences that drive emotional connection and lasting behavioral change. He also outlines a five-part emotional blueprint leaders can use to engineer loyalty, advocacy, and sustainablegrowth.

If you want to build a business customers cannot imagine living without, and a workplace employees genuinely love, this episode delivers a practical and strategic roadmap.

About Marcus Buckingham

Marcus Buckingham is a globally recognized researcher on high performance at work and a pioneer of the
strengths-based leadership movement. He is the author of multiple bestselling books and has spent decades
studying what drives exceptional team performance, employee engagement, and customer loyalty.

In Design Love In, Buckingham presents research demonstrating that love, not engagement, satisfaction,
or respect, is the most powerful predictor of positive human behavior in business.

Learn more: designlovein.com

Key Takeaways

Love is predictive. Satisfaction and respect are positive, but love most reliably drives loyalty and advocacy.
The “five” is what matters. On a 1 to 5 scale, behavior changes when people move from a 4 to a 5.
Measure love with a high bar: “I can’t imagine a world without ____.”
Leaders are experience makers. The question is whether you design experiences skillfully.
Experiences drive behavior, not directives. Sustainable change comes from how people feel while moving through your system.
Moments do not change behavior. Internalized experiences form a story that drives action.
Use the five feelings blueprint to design onboarding, sales, and customer journeys.
Process design often kills experience. Handoffs and silos create fragmented, transactional interactions.
Experience Intelligence is a strategic advantage. Designing for love helps you stand out and win.

The Five Feelings Blueprint

Use these five feelings in sequence to design experiences people love:

Control. “What is this world, and how do I work it?”
Harmony. “Does this experience understand what I’m feeling?”
Significance. “Do you know my story, and does it matter?”
Warmth of Others. “Who is here to help me?”
Growth. “Am I more capable tomorrow than I was today?”

This sequence becomes a practical blueprint for designing onboarding, sales processes, customer journeys, and
employee experiences.

Great Moments (Timestamps)

00:03. Why “Love” belongs in business
03:21. The measurement that matters
05:07. Why 4s and 5s are not the same
07:21. Experience Intelligence defined
09:23. Moments vs. experiences
15:30. The five feelings blueprint
20:13. Love as competitive advantage

Memorable Quotes

“Love is the most powerful driver of all productive human behavior.”

“Fives aren’t just lots and lots of fours. They’re categorically different.”

“The question isn’t whether you are an experience maker. You are. The question is: are you a skilled one?”

“The opposite of design is drift.”

“We’ve reduced humans to amoral elements of financial equations. That’s not very intelligent.”

Resources Mentioned

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:03.288)

You know, many firms out there today spend a fortune on perks, culture programs, and engagement surveys, and still sometimes feel like they’re maybe one meeting away from their entire team disengaging. Today’s guest tells us maybe we’ve been aiming at some of their own targets. The most powerful force in business isn’t strategy, compensation, or even flexibility. It’s love. So hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Marcus.

Buckingham. Marcus is a long time researcher of high performance at work, a pioneer of the strengths movement and the author of multiple bestselling books. We’re going to talk about his newest book, Design Love in How to Unleash the Most Powerful Force in Business. So Marcus, welcome to the show.

Marcus (00:49.669)

Thank you for having me.

John Jantsch (00:51.244)

So I’ll get the first easy softball question out of the way. I’m sure pretty much everybody asks you this, but, love doesn’t seem like a business term or certainly, hasn’t seemed like a business term for a lot of folks. are you, are you getting pushed back there or are you trying to redefine how people even think?

Marcus (00:56.666)

Hmm.

Marcus (01:10.479)

Well, no, you’re right. I mean, it isn’t really a good business term, but my background as a researcher is just, I’m always studying extreme positive outcomes. So for teams, it’s productivity or retention and for customers, it’s loyalty, obviously, and advocacy for your brand or your product. And when you study people that have an extreme positive experience, the word that people reach for

instinctively as humans is love. People will say, I love working on that team. I love that leader. I love that product. I love that restaurant. I love that hotel. And for the longest time, mean, you know, may I culper, but for the longest time, I listened to what people say. And of course, there’s two different kinds of research. You can do quantitative research where you’re actually measuring people’s experiences and relating it to performance. And you can do qualitative research. And when you’re doing qualitative research, you’re supposed to really just listen to the words people use and then take them at their word. And I kept changing it.

John Jantsch (01:39.384)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (01:52.91)

Right.

Marcus (02:03.779)

I kept changing the word love to things like satisfaction or engagement or joy or passion, which are good words, but it’s not the words people use. When people are trying to describe some extreme positive experience they want to repeat, the word we naturally reach for is, love that. I love it. I love that. And I think for the longest time I would try to change it in order to make it more palatable. But if you actually look at the data and I start this book really diving into the data on love, there’s no question that

John Jantsch (02:03.982)

Mm.

Marcus (02:33.089)

Love is the most powerful driver of all productive human behavior. If you want productivity, if you want retention, if you want somebody going, you got to come work here, it’s the best place I’ve ever worked, or you got to come shop here, it’s the best place I’ve ever shopped. Then you’ve got to take them at their word love. And that’s the, that’s the word that drives our behavior. And the strange thing is nothing else does. If you say, respect that leader, that’s fine, but I don’t know how hard you’re to work on the back of that.

John Jantsch (02:49.88)

Hmm.

Marcus (03:00.441)

If you say, really enjoyed that movie. can’t tell if you’re to go back and see it again or tell anyone else to see it. Other positive emotions are positive, but they don’t drive behavior. Only love is predictive. So that’s why I wanted to zero in on this, this very specific feeling in this book, cause it’s so predictive of positive human behavior.

John Jantsch (03:07.15)

me.

John Jantsch (03:16.109)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (03:21.974)

So I’m guessing some leaders the next question is going to be, well, how are we going to measure that? mean, surveys for measuring connection or outcomes or things like that I think are pretty easy to do. What’s the simplest way that somebody is going to measure? Is it that they’re hearing that word anecdotally?

Marcus (03:41.337)

Well, that’s a big question because you can unpack that into all sorts of conversations about, know, mystery shoppers and employee opinion surveys. Probably the best question to measure it actually that we found over the years is I can’t imagine a world without. Just finish that sentence. I can’t imagine a world without. I can’t imagine a leader without. I can’t imagine a team without. And if you get, if people are providing your company name, I can’t imagine a world without. mean, there’s very few companies, if you think about it, that actually meet that level.

John Jantsch (03:46.755)

Yeah, yeah.

Marcus (04:08.165)

But when you get people saying, can’t, you’re on a, on a scale of one to five, on a Likert scale, five being strongly agree, one being strongly disagree. If you put your company name in there or you put your name as a leader in there, I can’t imagine a world without, which I know is a very high standard. But when you get people saying strongly agree to that statement about your company or your leadership or your brand or your product, you’ve reached into their heart and somehow touch them in such a way that you’re actually going to drive their behavior. So all the data.

on the scale of one to five shows us that, that fives in terms of the experience of a product or experience of a team, fives are qualitatively and categorically different than fours. Fives aren’t just lots and lots of fours. In fact, if you actually plot it out, John, the relationship between experiences, extreme experience experiences and behaviors is what’s called curvilinear, which basically means moving somebody from a two experience to a three.

John Jantsch (04:59.896)

Marcus (05:07.501)

or a three to a four doesn’t actually get you any behavior change at all. It’s only when you do something with your team or something with your customers that moves them from a four to a five on that scale, that you actually see a change in behavior. Which of course means that we should never top two box ever again. Never put a four with a five ever. Because you’re lumping apples with oranges. should, as leaders, should look at the fives on a question, an extreme question like, can’t imagine a world without. And then only then are you beginning to get to a proper measure.

John Jantsch (05:24.524)

Huh. Yeah.

Marcus (05:37.315)

of how much love is in the system for you, your team, your product, your company.

John Jantsch (05:41.804)

I’m glad you mentioned the word experience because as I listen to you talk about it, I’m guessing the companies that I can’t imagine a world without are actually creating or at least thinking intentionally about experiences over delivery, results, over perks.

Marcus (05:59.149)

Absolutely.

Absolutely. mean, it’s one of the defining characteristics of the best leaders. They have a capability that when you actually look closely, it’s been hiding in plain sight. You don’t see it taught in any business school. And yet it’s really the primary driver of anything productive that we humans do, either as customers or as team members. I call it experience intelligence, which is based upon two fundamental understandings that leaders should have. Number one is that experiences drive behaviors, drive outcomes.

So often as leaders, think the directives drive behaviors, drive outcomes. If we set goals and then give corrective feedback to our people, we’ll get the outcomes we want. Or for customers, if we define prices and loyalty programs, that we’ll get the outcomes we want. And we do in the short term. But if you want sustainable behavior change, if you want people to tie their identity to your team or to your product or brand, you got to create an experience. You’ve got to understand how to reach into someone’s feelings and create for them an experience which somehow then changes their behaviors.

And the second part about that is the part we just talked about. If you really unpack what are the most powerful experiences, they’re the experiences that people say that they love. And that’s, that’s just part of the human condition. yeah, experience intelligence is a much more powerful leadership capability than we give it credit for.

John Jantsch (07:21.646)

So, and there may not be any true answer to this other than mindset change, but how do we keep experiences going? A lot of times in experiences, I went to this restaurant I’ve never been to, amazing experience. Went back the next time, not as good. Next time, not as much, because I’d already experienced the experience, right? I mean, so how in a living, breathing organization do we kind of keep that level of experience something that…

keeps people wanting to come back or keeps people experiencing something new.

Marcus (07:55.546)

Yeah, it’s, it’s one of the funny things over the last sort of years I’ve been talking about experienced intelligence. I thought the, I thought the hardest lift was going to be, could you please take love seriously? Cause love is a predictor of positive human behavior. But actually, John, it’s been more that getting people to understand that the driver of behavior is experience. Just getting people to think about, what makes up an experience? Cause normally we design for process.

John Jantsch (07:59.694)

you

John Jantsch (08:11.054)

Hmm.

Marcus (08:22.767)

We don’t design for experiences. Even if you have a restaurant, you have a reservations process. You have a food preparation process. You have a food delivery to the table process, which is really a set of disconnected processes with one hand off after another. We don’t actually design for a holistic experience in which a person, a human is going through that experience at the restaurant. Although actually that is what’s happening. And so what the first big lesson for leaders is you are an experience maker.

John Jantsch (08:23.213)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:47.437)

Yeah, yeah.

Marcus (08:53.275)

The question isn’t are you one or not? The question is are you a skilled one? And then once you can get people’s minds that we’re totally totally Here’s the thing about human beings we pick up what you’re putting down even if what you’re putting down you just dropped But we’re picking up what you’re putting down and turn it into an experience and it’s that experience then determines whether or not we come back whether we tell anyone else to come back So the first thing is you are an experience maker. Please don’t say you’re not you are the question is can you do it? Well? second is that the

John Jantsch (08:57.74)

Right. Yeah, because you could also be making bad experiences, right? Because you… Yeah.

John Jantsch (09:13.836)

Yeah. Yeah.

Marcus (09:23.183)

The raw material of experience making isn’t moments. mean, weirdly enough, a moment is jolting. A moment doesn’t change behavior. Like we should have magical, magical, delightful moments. Well, yes, but a moment is like somebody held the door open for you or a moment is somebody remembered your name, which is someone waved you into the traffic on the freeway. And those are lovely, but they’re jolting. They don’t change your behavior. And experience is different because it’s been internalized by the person. The person has picked up all the different touch points.

of that experience and made for them a story. And it’s that story, the experiential story that changes their behavior. And to your question, the raw material of making an experience are all of the different, and this is why it’s difficult, but all of the different touch points that the person’s picking up. And those touch points might be the voice on your interactive voice response on your reservation line. It might be the smell of that restaurant. It might be the lighting of that restaurant. It might be the name.

person that remembered your name, but it also might be the fact that you’ve designed a system whereby there isn’t three or four different people who you get handed off to when you sit at the table from the busser to the host to the waiter to the person who brings the food, which is, if you think about it, a really unloving thing to do for someone because they’re being handed off from one person to another. So every single touch point does work in experience making. And most leaders, frankly, are blind to this. They don’t see the

the the smell, the taste, the feel of those chairs against the back of your leg. But actually, if you are a skilled experience maker, and you think about the companies that we would almost immediately go, can’t imagine a world without, like say Disney. I mean, I’m not saying Disney is perfect by any means, but they have taken the skill of experience making very seriously indeed. So that all five senses and the touch points associated with all five senses,

are taken seriously by really every single cast member. And I suppose that’s the last thing I would say about experience design. Everybody’s got a voice and a responsibility in it. can’t, it’s so amazing to think that there’s so many businesses where the frontline people who are touching the customer every day, no one’s ever told them that they’re actually making an experience with every single, every single glance, every single behavior change, every single look in the eye or not look in the eye. All of those things are experience making.

John Jantsch (11:39.768)

Yeah.

Marcus (11:47.448)

You have that power. We don’t ever really talk about our frontline roles in that way. And yet that’s exactly what they’re doing.

John Jantsch (11:57.23)

And you know, it’s interesting. We, lot of our clients, lot of the work we do is, is really digital. It’s not necessarily, you know, human interactions. but it’s, it’s interesting because it’s still an experience. I can’t tell you how many times we’ve, you know, gone into looked at organizations. It’s like, well, this is broken. And when somebody clicks on this thing, they don’t get to where you thought they were going. Cause nobody’s looked at it for five years. You almost could make the case. I hate goofy titles.

But couldn’t you almost make the case for having an experience maker, you know, title that somebody who is looking at all the, know, the way a customer goes through our business.

Marcus (12:32.314)

Yeah, it’s interesting that you are beginning to see chief experience officers. You’re beginning to see that because people are beginning to realize that if you want sustainable behavior change, then you have to be a designer of experiences because the opposite of design is drift. And we drift a lot because we design for process. I mean, to take a silly example, which isn’t a digital example, like some of your clients, but if you take the restaurant example, or you could take a hospital example. If you think about

John Jantsch (12:36.31)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Marcus (13:02.63)

how we’ve designed hospitals, the person who checks you into the hospital is not the person who takes your vitals, who is not then the person who makes sure that you’re okay during the middle of the night, who’s a different than doctor who you see in the middle of the night, who’s then a different healthcare provider or practitioner first thing in the morning. You’re handed off through a series of vertical processes and yet you, the human, you’re the poor person who’s supposed to hold the coherence of your narrative through all of it.

John Jantsch (13:17.774)

Thanks

John Jantsch (13:29.646)

You’re right.

Marcus (13:30.012)

trying to remember all the details that matter when in fact you have no flipping idea what details really matter. And then we wonder why our healthcare outcomes are so poor relative to the amount of costs we put in. We’ve designed healthcare experiences that are fundamentally unloving because we haven’t designed them as experiences. We haven’t seen the human going through all of them. That’s in healthcare, it’s true in schools, it’s true in restaurants and hospitality. And to your point, it’s certainly true in the digital environment. We’ve designed for the wrong, well not the wrong thing,

But when you just design for process, you become blind to the actual holistic experience of the person and you drift. And then we wonder why we don’t get any loyalty or we don’t get any advocacy. We don’t get usage. It’s like we’re humans are experienced feelers and our behavior is changed through the way in which we pick up what you put down in terms of an experience.

John Jantsch (14:17.198)

you

John Jantsch (14:23.692)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it’s almost sometimes feels like, you know, friction, you’re, you’re designing for like, what’s easy for us, you’re almost automatically going to make it harder for the customer, right? Yeah. So let’s, let’s, I don’t know if you’re capable of doing this because every business is different, but let’s, let’s take one step in a typical customer journey, like onboarding a new customer.

Marcus (14:34.65)

Yes.

John Jantsch (14:47.574)

Again, that’s another one that’s typically done for efficiency sake. How would you design love into something like that? I know that’s a random example, but give me a thought of how somebody would think about onboarding a new client having love in it.

Marcus (15:01.532)

So when you, this is gonna sound really weird, but love isn’t a coating. It’s not a, if you’re leading lovingly, it doesn’t mean that you’re being nice, although you may be. There’s no kumbaya, yeah. What you’re trying to get to, if you think about something like onboarding, a customer or an employee, what you’re trying to do is you’re trying to have that onboarding process, do the work, a big part of the work of getting a customer to go, I love that, I love that, okay?

John Jantsch (15:12.214)

Yeah, so we’re not going to there’s no hugging going on yet, right?

John Jantsch (15:29.474)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Marcus (15:30.778)

So if you reverse engineer that, how do you get someone to that outcome where they actually would walk around with love in their heart, which I know sounds like a weird expression, but they’re walking around with love in their heart. I love that. Not like it was fine. Not a four, not a three, but a five. I love that. Well, if you reverse engineer that, John, you bump into a sequence of five feelings, which are sequential. This is not mass loving. It’s not hierarchical. It’s sequential. that sequence of five is like a blueprint for your design process.

John Jantsch (15:42.413)

Yeah.

Marcus (15:59.6)

The first feeling is control. So if you imagine this, a person is trying to lean into an experience at which point, at the end of which they go, I love that. So the first feeling they’re bumping into is control. I don’t mean control over someone else. I mean, they want an answer to the question, what is this world and how do I work it? Anytime you are unclear about what this world is that I’m walking into, anytime you lack vividness about what’s there in the world and how can I use it, I as a human, I lean out.

because I tend to go through life like all humans wrapped up like an armadillo, protected against the world. If you can show me what is this world and how do I work it, I take off one piece of armor. The next feeling is harmony. Basically, as I move into an experience, most experiences are emotional experiences first. So I need to have an answer to the question, does this experience know what I’m feeling and does it care? Have you designed any touch points that could communicate to me, I know what you’re feeling,

And I care about it. Third feeling is significance. Every human being at some point in an experience wants that experience to know my story. Do you know my story and do you care? I don’t want you to start that way. I want you to start with control. Tell me the rules. I don’t mind the rules. Tell me the rules. But at some point, I want you to know, do you know who I am uniquely and does that then change anything about my experience? The fourth feeling is the warmth of others. Humans don’t do well in experiences where they’re isolated.

At some point they pop their little head above the parapet and they go, who is here to help me? Either as a person going through an experience together or as somebody on the company side of things who’s helping to guide and navigate me. And then the last feeling is growth because love is a forward facing emotion. If you love someone, you never think they’re finished. You are always aware they’re going to have to wake up tomorrow and go and experience the world again. And so the last feeling answers the question, am I slightly more capable tomorrow than I was today?

Well, if you use those five feelings as your blueprint, you would start to design an onboarding experience incredibly intentionally so that you would deliberately in sequence cultivating those feelings. Now to your question, right? How you do that would depend upon the exact onboarding experience you were building. But what we need to give leaders is like, this is a blueprint for experience design to get to a place where a person’s going to go. I love that.

John Jantsch (18:25.932)

Yeah.

Marcus (18:26.448)

Without the design, it’s a bit hit and miss really in terms of what you’re trying to create for people.

John Jantsch (18:29.677)

Yeah.

You know, as I listen to you describe those, I mean, that’s, we were putting it in the context of onboarding, but frankly, you know, when somebody’s out there looking for a new resource, you know, that’s probably a process they go through, right? It’s like, I want to know who’s out there. I want to like them. I want to start to trust them. And it is sort of sequential, right? Before we’re even going to pick up the phone or, you know, fill out a form.

Marcus (18:49.574)

Mm.

Marcus (18:56.24)

Yeah, well that sequence of feelings, mean, you’re trying to, it’s simply said, you’re trying to just get people to say, love that. Whether you’re trying to sell them something, whether you’re trying to get them to join your community, whether you’re trying to onboard them into a company like an employee process, that outcome is a very strong, super vivid human outcome.

John Jantsch (19:04.546)

Yeah. Yeah.

Marcus (19:20.656)

what we could do in every situation. Like if you were trying to design a sales process, you’d go, well, we should actually design it around those five feelings, control, harmony, significance, warmth of others, growth. If we could design a process, we wouldn’t get it right perfectly every time. We wouldn’t get every single, but we would at least be intentional about experience design. And we would see it as a person moving through that sequence of feelings. Well, gosh, if we could do that, we wouldn’t feel like we do so often today,

Today we feel transactional. The world feels extractive. Leaders are directive, which put it another way. We’re living in an increasingly unloving world. And what we know from everything to do with human psychology is humans don’t flourish in an unloving world. And I think the data would suggest very strongly neither do businesses.

John Jantsch (19:52.952)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:13.176)

Yeah.

Marcus (20:13.742)

So if you really want a flourishing business where you’ve got a lot of customers or a lot of people walking around with love in their heart for your brand or your company, you got to design it in. And you’ll only do that if you take love seriously, which frankly at present we don’t.

John Jantsch (20:30.392)

You know, as I listened to you describe that, and given the state of the world that you just described as well, it sounds like it’s also a very significant potential differentiator. Because if I’m not getting that in eight out of 10 places, the two places that are giving me that are probably really going to get my business.

Marcus (20:49.038)

No, that’s a great point. It’s a huge, I know this sounds really strange to say it because love should be a genuine intention toward another human being’s flourishing. But that aside, it is a huge strategic advantage. Because if you’ve got a whole bunch of leaders who have experienced intelligence, who know how to intentionally try to design love into the experiences they make, then they will stand out because frankly, so many other companies, so many other organizations are loveless.

John Jantsch (20:55.95)

You’re right.

Marcus (21:16.166)

where human beings who work there aren’t even called human beings, they’re called headcount or FTEs, full-time equivalents, or customers aren’t a real human, they’re their average basket size or their lifetime customer value. We have been reduced as humans to amoral elements of financial equations, which isn’t terrible, it’s just super uninspiring and not very intelligent. So for the best companies, they’ll look at the current…

John Jantsch (21:16.29)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (21:27.52)

you

John Jantsch (21:41.315)

Yeah.

Marcus (21:44.348)

playing field, you will, John, go, yeah, we could, even if we began to think about how to design experiences that people would say that they love, we would be so materially different in the feelings that we would be creating in our people or in our customers. you know, it’s not, experience intelligence is one of those strange capabilities that’s easy to start, hard to master, fine, but easy to start. And as you said, if you did start,

John Jantsch (22:09.986)

Yeah.

Marcus (22:13.456)

Gosh, you’d stand out from the

John Jantsch (22:15.47)

Yeah, 100%. So Marcus Buckingham is the author of Design Love In, How to Unleash the Most Powerful Force in Business. I appreciate you taking a few moments to join us. Where would you invite people to connect with you or find out more about your work in Design Love In?

Marcus (22:31.568)

Well, rather unsurprisingly, if you go to designlovein.com, you can find everything to with the book there. We’ve also in partnership with Harvard Business Review, we created a discovery series for folks that ordered or pre-ordered the book that basically describes the 10 key discoveries underpinning it. So if you’re interested in learning both from books or from video, go to designlovein and there’s a whole discovery series for you and as well as everything that you might want to know about the book itself.

John Jantsch (22:56.174)

Well again, I appreciate you spending a few moments with us. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Marcus (23:01.84)

I’d love that.

How Small Businesses Can Grow Their Own Talent

How Small Businesses Can Grow Their Own Talent written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Listen To The Full Episode:

Episode Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews workplace futurist Alexandra Levit about her new book,
Make Schoolwork: Solving the American Youth Employment Crisis Through Work-Based Learning.

They explore how work-based learning, including apprenticeships, internships, and immersive real-world experiences, can bridge the growing gap between employers struggling to find skilled workers and young people facing underemployment after graduation.

As AI reshapes entry-level knowledge work and skilled trades face labor shortages, Alexandra makes the case that businesses of all sizes can build their own talent pipeline while strengthening their brand, culture, and community impact.

This episode is a practical guide for small and mid-sized business owners who are tired of chasing ready-made talent and want a smarter, more sustainable workforce strategy.

About Alexandra Levit

Alexandra Levit is a workplace futurist, author, and CEO of Inspiration at Work. She has written extensively about the future of work, talent intelligence, and workforce trends.

In Make Schoolwork, co-authored with GPS Education Partners, she outlines a scalable framework for work-based learning that connects students, employers, educators, and communities to address the American youth employment crisis.

Learn more at: makeschoolwork.org

What Is Work-Based Learning?

Work-based learning is education that takes place in a real-world work environment. It typically includes:

Apprenticeships
Internships
One-to-one mentoring
Immersive, skills-based workplace experiences

High-quality work-based learning is:

Authentic to the student’s interests
Immersive and hands-on
Structured with clear learning objectives
Designed to build both technical and interpersonal skills

Students gain practical abilities, such as operating equipment, integrating AI technologies, or mastering skilled trades, while also developing judgment, communication, and problem-solving capabilities.

The Youth Employment Crisis Explained

Alexandra describes a growing mismatch between open positions in the workforce, employers struggling to find qualified candidates, and young people who are unemployed or underemployed, even after earning four-year degrees.

Key contributing factors include:

A cultural push toward universal four-year college enrollment
Oversupply of graduates for traditional knowledge worker roles
Declining entry-level hiring due to AI automation
Persistent stigma around skilled trades

Meanwhile, industries like plumbing, carpentry, manufacturing, and technical trades offer strong starting pay, family-sustaining wages, career stability, and lower automation risk.

Work-based learning creates a direct pathway between students and real workforce demand.

Why This Matters in the Age of AI

AI is automating many entry-level knowledge jobs first. At the same time, roles that require complex physical movement, human-to-human interaction, skilled craftsmanship, and judgment and adaptability are far harder to replace.

Alexandra emphasizes that students who begin learning AI tools and robotics early can grow alongside the technology, developing practical integration skills that many experienced workers are still trying to catch up with.

Work-based learning does not compete with AI. It integrates AI into real workflows from day one.

The Employer Advantage: Building a Talent Pipeline

A Reliable Talent Pipeline

Instead of competing for scarce, ready-made talent, businesses can bring students in early, train them in company-specific processes, and develop loyalty and cultural fit.

Stronger Employer Branding

Participating businesses are seen as investing in their community, supporting local youth, and creating meaningful career pathways.

Improved Employee Engagement

Employees often thrive in mentorship roles. Acting as mentors increases engagement, develops leadership skills, and strengthens internal culture.

Long-Term Retention

Contrary to popular belief, young workers can be loyal when given clear growth opportunities, meaningful work, and competitive wages.
Many students who start at 16 or 17 through structured programs go on to build full careers with the same employer.

How Small Businesses Can Start

You do not need a complex corporate program to begin.

Step 1: Define the Outcome

Ask:

What skills do we need long-term?
What would success look like 2 to 3 years from now?

Step 2: Partner With a School or Program

Establish relationships with:

Local high schools
Community colleges
Universities
Work-based learning intermediaries (like GPS Education Partners)

Step 3: Avoid Random Acts of Work-Based Learning

Tours and one-off talks are helpful, but not enough. Create a structured plan with clear skill objectives, defined responsibilities, and a measurable timeline, such as a 10-week paid micro-internship.

Step 4: Leverage Existing Certifications

Use third-party certification programs to standardize skill acquisition, measure progress, and provide recognized credentials.

Addressing Concerns: Supervision, Liability, and Compliance

Common employer concerns include:

Labor laws, especially for minors
Transportation and scheduling
Academic credit coordination
Insurance and liability

Alexandra recommends working with experienced intermediaries, especially those familiar with local regulations, to avoid reinventing the wheel and ensure compliance.

Measuring Success

Key metrics for evaluating work-based learning initiatives include:

Skill acquisition and certifications earned
Retention rates post-program
Conversion to full-time employment
Employee engagement among mentors
Workforce readiness improvements

Skill development is the most powerful and measurable indicator of success.

Key Takeaways

The youth employment crisis is a mismatch problem, not a talent shortage.
Four-year degrees are not the only path to meaningful, high-paying work.
AI is reshaping entry-level jobs, increasing the need for adaptable, skills-based workers.
Work-based learning builds loyalty, culture, and long-term workforce stability.
Small businesses can start small, but must define outcomes clearly.
Mentorship benefits existing employees as much as students.

Great Moments From the Episode

00:54 What work-based learning really means
02:25 The root cause of the youth employment crisis
04:19 The stigma around skilled trades
06:31 The human advantage over automation
08:45 Real-world success stories from GPS Education Partners
11:41 Why work-based learning builds loyalty
15:12 The underrated power of mentorship
19:55 Measuring skill acquisition as a success metric
22:21 Why AI integration must start early

Pulled Quotes

We don’t want random acts of work-based learning.

If you’re small and don’t have brand name recognition, this is how you build your own talent pipeline.

It’s as important to know what you don’t want to do as what you do.

Resources

Make School Work:
makeschoolwork.org
Alexandra Levit, Inspiration at Work

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.566)

If you’re tired of hiring ready-made talent that doesn’t actually exist, today’s episode will show you how to build your own pipeline through something called work-based learning that strengthens your business and your brand at the same time. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Alexandra Levitt. She is a workplace futurist, author and CEO of Inspiration at Work. She’s written extensively about

how work is changing. And today we’re going to talk about her new book, Make Schoolwork Solving the American Youth Employment Crisis Through Work-Based Learning. So, Alexandra, welcome back to the show.

Alexandra Levit (00:42.862)

Thanks so much for having me, John. It’s good to see and hear you.

John Jantsch (00:45.634)

Likewise, likewise. So let’s break down a couple of things in the title. What is work-based learning?

Alexandra Levit (00:54.702)

Work-based learning is the most simple explanation for it is that it is work, is learning that takes place in a real world work environment. And that typically includes things like apprenticeships, internships, one-to-one mentoring. And we refer to high quality work-based learning as being a fully immersive experience that’s authentic to the individual in terms of the things that they are passionate about.

John Jantsch (01:04.0)

Yeah, yeah.

Alexandra Levit (01:23.902)

and that provides a tangible opportunity to spend a good degree of time learning skills that will make you career ready. So these can be anything from learning judgment and interpersonal relations to problem solving. But also it, lot of times gives students a very concrete group of skills about how to work a set of equipment. For example, it depends on where you’re doing work-based learning. But if it’s in a manufacturing setting, for example, you could very well be

John Jantsch (01:47.479)

Yes.

Alexandra Levit (01:53.044)

literally on the front lines of learning how to integrate AI-based technologies into existing robotics or existing equipment. And that’s a very valuable skill set in today’s workforce.

John Jantsch (02:04.61)

I would suggest far more valuable than, I don’t know, AP calculus.

Alexandra Levit (02:09.87)

For sure.

John Jantsch (02:12.308)

I suppose it depends. All right. So, so the other part of the title I wanted to break out, how would you describe, I mean, you use the word youth employment crisis. How would you describe what you’re trying to convey there?

Alexandra Levit (02:25.518)

Well, I think the important thing to recognize from my perspective, at least when I look at my own trajectory, is that there has been this mismatch or this gap for quite some time between the positions that are available in the workforce and the length of time that it takes employers to find the right talent and the number of young people who are unemployed or underemployed. And you would think if there’s just a way to match

John Jantsch (02:55.17)

Mm-hmm.

Alexandra Levit (02:55.186)

the students who are looking for work with the organizations that are needing to fill positions that that would be a good way to go. Unfortunately, the way our current educational system is structured, it doesn’t exactly operate that way in that over the last couple of decades, we really pushed, especially here in the US, toward every student should go to a four year college.

John Jantsch (03:20.13)

Yeah.

Alexandra Levit (03:20.652)

the be all end all, it doesn’t matter what you’re really interested in, whether you have the aptitude for post-secondary education, whether you have the desire, that’s the outcome that both students and their parents expect that they’re going to do. And so as a result, we have more people graduating college than we ever have had before, which is good that we are providing opportunities for education and especially education that was unaffordable to some prior to the last couple of decades.

because we have so many college students graduating, the jobs that are available on the knowledge worker front are not as prolific. And this is especially relevant in the last year or so where entry-level hiring has taken a massive dip due to the integration of AI-based technologies into the workforce. Some of those jobs have been the first to be automated. So what we really still see is there’s a tremendous skills gap in jobs that

John Jantsch (03:58.273)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (04:10.849)

Yeah.

Alexandra Levit (04:19.34)

don’t necessarily require a four-year college degree, but there’s a glut of students on the other side who’ve gotten all this education and don’t know what to do with it. So work-based learning is what we feel is the solution to that employment crisis that’s happening.

John Jantsch (04:33.962)

Well, and you take it from the headlines. mean, Amazon lays off, I don’t know what the number was, 20,000 people or something like that. We have, in my agency, we have a lot of home service businesses that we do work for and finding skilled labor right now for jobs like plumbing and carpentry and things. There’s a real need for that and consequently, they’re paying a lot for those positions now. And so I see, do you see a real shift where

Alexandra Levit (04:58.467)

Yes.

John Jantsch (05:03.391)

AI is probably a ways away from being able to do plumbing and carpentry.

Alexandra Levit (05:08.162)

That’s exactly how I see it. And I see that these, there is this strange stigma that I don’t really know where it came from, but ever since I’ve been in this line of work, it’s that, you want to have a career that requires a four year college degree. You don’t want to go into manufacturing or plumbing or carpentry because that’s not a desirable career path. Well, if you look at what is a desirable career path, it’s something that allows you to earn a family sustaining wage.

John Jantsch (05:09.622)

Yeah.

Alexandra Levit (05:36.567)

and something that you enjoy doing. So to me, that’s a pretty broad definition and it depends on who you are, what you might find rewarding and meaningful. And as you mentioned, these jobs pay astronomically well, way better out of the gate than a lot of knowledge worker jobs or what we used to call knowledge worker jobs. And so I think that that’s, but there’s this strange stigma. I do see a little bit of a shift though. And I think part of that is

everyone is starting to wake up to the impact of AI and realize we need to go back to what humans can do in our unique way. And that’s things, I remember there was one study that showed that the robotics couldn’t do simple things like clean a house because there were too many complex motions that they would have to program and it was just physically incapable of doing it. And there’s a lot of things like that. And a lot of times too, these,

John Jantsch (06:20.458)

Mm-hmm.

Alexandra Levit (06:31.95)

trade occupations, they are really human to human and they’re very interpersonal in nature. And so sometimes you don’t, maybe you don’t want an AI plumber coming to your house. Maybe you have your same plumber that you’ve worked with for 10, 15 years and now you’re getting to know his or her son or daughter because they’re taking over the family business. I mean, this is how we worked for most of human history. And I think we’re starting to see that there was some value in that.

John Jantsch (06:57.92)

Yeah, just look at their Google reviews of these kinds of businesses. They hardly ever mentioned the company. It’s Rusty, you know, who fixed my boiler. Right. So I think you’re absolutely right. You had, I don’t want to spend too much time on this, but you co-authored this with GPS Education Partners. Was there a research component that they participated in?

Alexandra Levit (07:04.77)

Yeah. Yeah.

Alexandra Levit (07:20.622)

It’s a great question. And the answer is that I was looking for the solution to this problem for many, many years. The fact that we again have so many open positions and so many young people that aren’t filling them. And I didn’t really know what the solution was. I did a book a couple of years ago on talent intelligence, hoping that AI could help us with seeing the potential and adjacent skills of people. And that is one solution. But when GPS education partners came to me and they talked about their solution,

which is to convene a group of parties, it depends on what your unique situation is, but it could be a school district with a set of employers, with policymakers, with nonprofits who have an interest in the community. You get everyone together and you say, is the problem we’re trying to solve here? Are we trying to get our local students into our local employers? And a lot of times that is the objective. But how can we all work together to come up with a common…

not only a goal, but also a plan of attack for mapping that directly, your local students to the jobs that are available in your community. And they have successfully done this over 25 years in many places in the US, but in particular in the Midwest here in Wisconsin, Illinois, Minnesota, and they have had astronomical success. And one of the things that I love about their story is that you hear these

John Jantsch (08:31.266)

Hmm.

Alexandra Levit (08:45.838)

crazy things like a kid would go into an employer at 16 years old, start working. And then the kid, I was able to talk to 10 years later, you know, he’s 28 years old or 20, 26 years old. And he’s now like a master welder at this organization. He built an entire career off one work-based learning experience. And so that’s when I was like, we got to get the word out. We’ve got to figure out how to scale this because this is to me kind of a no brainer solution to a very, very significant problem that we are having.

John Jantsch (08:51.01)

Thanks.

John Jantsch (09:15.276)

So in the school, know, a lot of schools have had like intern programs that are part of a department and I’m thinking of colleges, but I’m sure high schools do this too. you know, the department has like some employers that they work with and there’s internships and things. I mean, is this more on the school to actually make a curriculum that they can, you know, so like I can get three hours of credit or something for going and doing this work-based learning and the employer gets

You know, something that they’ve designed. mean, is that, is that the start of how it works?

Alexandra Levit (09:49.217)

Yes, and the curriculum is a lot of times co-created between the school and the employer with GPS Education Group, GPS Education Partners acting as an intermediary that understands the different objectives of the different parties. And in an ideal world, these practical experiences where a kid goes into a learning center and is doing a couple hours of schoolwork that pertains

John Jantsch (09:57.452)

Mm-hmm.

Alexandra Levit (10:18.328)

pretty closely to the work-based learning experience and then is going out on a shop floor, for example, and doing the very practical. So they might be getting certified in certain manufacturing areas. So while they’re getting the very, I don’t know, I guess you would say, hardcore on the ground experience, they’re also getting some of that background educational knowledge that is essential to continue to pursue that career.

John Jantsch (10:29.878)

Mm-hmm.

Alexandra Levit (10:46.924)

And that’s what I love about it is that it’s education for a purpose. It’s not just, well, we’re going to go do this for your degree. We don’t know if we’re actually going to use it for anything, but we’re going to do it. And this way, I feel like with work-based learning, you have a really educated determination about whether further education makes sense for something that you have learned you either want to do or don’t want to do. We love to say with work-based learning that that’s as important to know what you don’t want to do as what you do.

John Jantsch (11:06.144)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (11:17.058)

So I 100 % get the value for the students and for the schools really frankly. Let’s talk about the employer for a minute. Is the employer, is the real goal of the employer is to actually entice this person to come and see how awesome we are and they’re gonna eventually wanna work for us or is it to get cheap labor or what, how should an employer look at the value for them?

Alexandra Levit (11:21.23)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep.

Alexandra Levit (11:41.741)

I think employers can look at it simply as a pipeline of talent. And the way that I’ve heard a lot of employers discuss this, it almost is like a CSR initiative, corporate social responsibility, where they want to be perceived as adding value to the community in general so that the community can prosper, employer can prosper, and the whole system works. And that is one objective. But I would also suggest that it’s much simpler than that even, which is that where

John Jantsch (12:06.754)

Thank

Alexandra Levit (12:11.234)

Particularly, I know you have a lot of small businesses as your listeners. It’s like if you’re small business without brand name recognition, it’s really hard to get talent. It’s hard to get talent anyway, but it’s especially hard if you don’t have that name recognition and having a way to reliably get students in the door, train them on what they need to do, teach them how to be good workers. And then I think if you do a good job with this,

they do stay with you. I mean, we see that over and over again, and people say young people aren’t loyal. I don’t think that’s true. I think it depends on the environment. And if they are provided an environment where they feel like they’ve gotten an amazing experience and they want to continue and they know they can earn a family sustaining wage if they keep going, and it makes sense, I think they are likely to stay with that employer. So to me, yes, it’s a socially responsible thing to do.

But also, I think it literally gets people in the door. even if though not every single kid who goes into work-based learning is going to become a full-time employee. ideally, you have a few every year. And I think that that would be a really important benefit for organizations that are having trouble getting people.

John Jantsch (13:23.468)

So how would I, if I’m a business and I don’t know, I’m a 20 person firm, I’m not, you know, I’m not a lawyer. mean, social responsibility is nice, but it’s also, it’s also down, probably somewhat down the list of all the other stuff I have to manage, right? So how do I start small? How do I look at, you know, obviously I need to, I probably need to find a school maybe that’s got this program already, right? But how do, so how do I start small?

Alexandra Levit (13:29.166)

Okay.

Alexandra Levit (13:36.908)

Yep.

Alexandra Levit (13:49.239)

I recommend it because I actually did this myself. So I have an even smaller business than you. But what I did is I got some Northwestern students because I’m in Chicago and I had my own little work-based learning program for these Northwestern students. Some of them are still working with me today in different capacities. And so I think that’s really it. It’s establishing a relationship with a school that has the type of student that you think would be effective working in your organization. And then

You got to come up with a plan with the school to understand like, they going to be getting credit? What kind of credit are they going to be getting? are the other components of this besides they’re coming to your location to work? When they are coming to your location to work, what does that look like? What is the experience going to entail? Because one of my favorite things I heard Stephanie Locke, one of my co-authors say is,

We don’t want to encourage random acts of work-based learning where, you know, we do like a tour of our facility for a bunch of students or somebody comes and talks. It’s like those things are nice. They’re important for exploration, but ideally there would be a really concrete plan about what that student is going to learn, what they’re going to do, and how the different parties are going to benefit, as you said, because employers are putting themselves out there trying to do something that they haven’t done before. And therefore,

John Jantsch (14:45.238)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah.

Alexandra Levit (15:12.224)

It does require some degree of effort and some degree of willingness to change and do things a little bit differently. And the other thing that I’d point out that is a real benefit, I think for any size business is that employees love to be in the mentorship position. It really goes a long way toward their own engagement when they are able to take a student under their wing and teach them things.

John Jantsch (15:30.368)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that’s true.

Alexandra Levit (15:39.148)

And I think that’s kind of an underrated benefit. We people think, or leaders think, employees don’t have time for this. They don’t want to bother. And it’s actually the opposite, I found. When it’s done correctly, this is really rewarding for employees and allows them growth opportunities as well.

John Jantsch (15:53.858)

And I suspect, and again, I’m just thinking myself, you know, I suspect the way to do this is to actually, I mean, it’s like a lot of things start with what’s the outcome you want, then back it into like, okay, we’re to make this a 10 week paid micro internship or something. I mean, just really define it. Even have like down to the level of having checklists of what we want that person, you know, to accomplish and what we hope the outcome can be from that. Because I think if

Alexandra Levit (16:04.27)

Yep.

John Jantsch (16:20.63)

I think a lot of mistakes, a lot of times, and this goes with hiring in general, a lot of times people, I need a VA or I need an executive assistant or I need, you know, whatever. And then they really don’t define the position and they don’t define the outcome. so then it just becomes babysitting.

Alexandra Levit (16:37.59)

Yes, absolutely. And actually, that’s the value that GPS Education Partners brought to me and my desire to solve this problem. They’ve got a really well thought out six part process that takes you literally through what you do first, second, third, fourth, and fifth. And it allows you to be creative in the sense if you want to do a smaller program or you want to pilot something, like you can still use that framework. It’s just a matter of how

John Jantsch (16:42.956)

Yes.

John Jantsch (16:49.654)

Right.

Alexandra Levit (17:04.472)

complex it needs to be at the beginning. And the answer is it probably doesn’t need to be super complex at the beginning. And it does, but it does give that blueprint. And of course, if you need help and make schoolwork has a lot of detail in it about how to do these different steps, but you can always call them or a group like them for help in setting something like this up. I don’t, it’s not super expensive to do. It’s just a matter of feeling passionately about it, that this is a viable solution for your business.

John Jantsch (17:34.516)

And, and, and I, I’m again, I’m thinking like business owners, time supervision liability. mean, are there things, concerns, you know, beyond just like getting the work done, but other, concerns of bringing a work-based learning might be a teenager, you know, that, you’re bringing into an environment that you’ve not had teenagers in. you know, are there other considerations like, you know, supervision and liability?

Alexandra Levit (18:00.694)

Yeah, I mean, there are. And that’s one of the reasons if I was doing it myself, I would definitely be consulting with a group that’s done this before, because there’s all sorts of things. And there’s even the fact that if they’re getting a high school degree while trying to do this, well, how are they going to be transported? How is credit going to work? There are just a lot of things like that, where once you dig into the weeds, you’re like, well, actually, there’s a lot of factors and things to consider.

John Jantsch (18:08.054)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:19.734)

Right.

Alexandra Levit (18:30.21)

That’s not to say that these are deal breakers, but they are things where I personally, if I was gonna do this, would be consulting someone who’s done it before, especially in my geography, because we do find that those labor laws differ by state. So you want somebody who’s done this kind of thing in your state and who understands like these are the boxes we have to check for different, we wanna be in compliance of all of the things we need to get, just like with any employee, you wanna be in compliance.

John Jantsch (18:33.442)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (18:44.042)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (18:54.743)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:58.146)

Yeah. So, so another, whether it’s GPS or somebody else, mean, another kind of, um, check mark for, um, going with somebody that’s figured all that part of it out. Right. So, so you’re not at a surface.

Alexandra Levit (19:10.478)

Yes, yes, exactly. It’s going to be, I think the part that you mentioned, which is answering the why and what do we want the outcome to be. I mean, that part is the thing the employer has to think really, really carefully on and no one can do that except for the employer themselves and their leadership. But some of this other stuff, I think, why not? Why try to reinvent the wheel? Why not work with someone who’s already done it a bunch?

John Jantsch (19:34.594)

So, and a lot of business owners think this way as well. How do I measure the success of this if I’m going to do this? What are some kind of common metrics you mentioned? Obviously the social impact is one that I think people want. It’s a little harder to measure, but what are some of the things that people might measure?

Alexandra Levit (19:55.746)

My there’s a whole bunch of things that people can measure and we do talk a lot about this in the book, but I would say my favorite measurement is skill acquisition and it’s understanding. All right, you come in and work for me. What what literal skills are you going to come out with and how do we measure whether you’ve acquired them or not? So having certification programs that are tied to this, for example, there’s a lot of certification programs that already exist in different industries that were established by.

John Jantsch (20:21.59)

Mm.

Alexandra Levit (20:23.119)

third party organizations or nonprofits that you can piggyback on. And you make that a priority for them to acquire certain skills. And by the way, we are in the middle right now of this massive workforce wide upskilling in the area of AI. AI is being integrated into literally everything. So having that as part of your work-based learning initiative, well, not only are you going to be helping students, but again, you’re gonna be helping all the employees.

John Jantsch (20:40.055)

Mm-hmm.

Alexandra Levit (20:52.367)

who need to learn this stuff as well. And what I love is that if you have a 16, 17 year old student on the front lines of learning these technologies, they can grow up with the technology. And as the technology evolves and changes, the student is keeping up with it. And that’s something that we, those of us who’ve been in the workforce a while, we’re just trying to play catch up here. And we’ve done things a different way for a very long time. And I love the idea of starting students

John Jantsch (20:52.544)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:06.7)

Yeah.

Alexandra Levit (21:21.355)

in robotics, like what can the robots do right now? What can they do next year? How is this going to evolve? And what are the very practical things we need to do to make sure that we are deploying AI ethically, responsibly, and efficiently? Well, this is stuff we all need to learn.

John Jantsch (21:37.844)

Well, and you know, one of the things I think is interesting and, know, when social media came along, all of our clients would like, just go get a teenager. Like they use all this stuff all the time. They know what to do. They didn’t know how to apply it. They didn’t know actually that they didn’t know actually the practical use of it in, the environment, that, that they were being put in. And I think that that’s a, an element that, you, a business owner or a business person can certainly bring to.

Alexandra Levit (21:50.979)

Yeah, that’s not true.

John Jantsch (22:07.638)

Yeah, okay, they understand all these and they have no fear of playing with all these tools, but how they actually put them in context of a good use in a business situation, I think is something that is an invaluable skill they’re never gonna learn in school.

Alexandra Levit (22:21.657)

you’re exactly right. And that gets to the heart of what the problem is workforce wide, which is that nobody knows how to integrate these things into their existing business processes and workflows. And so we’re finding that AI is a lot of hype right now without a lot of ROI precisely for that reason. So if we can teach students that at a very young age and get them used to, okay, every time a new technology comes down the pike.

I had to figure out what’s the best use of that. How do we deploy that in a sensible way? That’s going to be incredible because these things are only going to keep evolving. We are not going to stop and it’s only going to get faster.

John Jantsch (22:57.462)

No. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Alexander, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by. Where would you invite people to connect with you and find out more about Make School Work? And I think you also have a makeschoolwork.org organization.

Alexandra Levit (23:12.823)

Yes, our website, MakeSchoolWork.org has obviously the book, but it’s going to continue to have resources for how you can assess your own readiness to start work-based learning, just some additional things to think about. This is not an easy thing to do, but it’s also, when it goes well, it’s extremely rewarding. And I think we’re going to see more and more of this as we just come to terms with the fact that…

John Jantsch (23:32.076)

and

Alexandra Levit (23:38.179)

The current education system here in the US is not really doing its job to prepare all students for the world of work. We’ve got kind of a narrow approach that I think deserves to be widened and further considered.

John Jantsch (23:49.568)

Yeah, awesome. Well, again, thanks for stopping by the show and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Alexandra Levit (23:56.374)

You’re welcome. Thanks for having me, John. It’s good to see you again.

John Jantsch (23:59.222)

Likewise.

How to Reduce Taxes and Build Real Wealth

How to Reduce Taxes and Build Real Wealth written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch The Full Episode:

Episode Overview

What if the biggest professional disappointment of your life was actually the foundation for your long-term wealth strategy?

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Jack Ojo, founder of Ojo Wealth Strategies, one of the nation’s largest tax-focused wealth management firms. Before building a nationally recognized firm, Jack was a top-rated minor league baseball umpire on the verge of the Major Leagues.

After an unexpected release ended his umpiring career, Jack reinvented himself through education, discipline, and a relentless focus on tax strategy and client service. Today, he helps business owners and high-income professionals minimize taxes, maximize retirement savings, and protect against worst-case financial scenarios.

This conversation explores career resilience, proactive tax planning, retirement strategies, and the overlooked wealth-building tools most entrepreneurs ignore.

About Jack Ojo

Jack Ojo is the founder and lead advisor of Ojo Wealth Strategies, a nationally recognized tax-focused wealth management firm. He holds multiple professional designations, including CPA, CFP, and a Master’s in Taxation.

Before entering wealth management, Jack was a highly rated minor league baseball umpire, advancing to AAA and earning the Joe Ryan Award as the top minor league umpiring prospect. After his baseball career ended unexpectedly, he redirected his discipline into education, earning advanced credentials and building a firm focused on proactive tax reduction and long-term wealth preservation.

He is also the author of Too Smart to Be an Umpire, a book chronicling his journey from professional sports to financial advisory leadership.

Key Takeaways for Entrepreneurs and Business Owners

1. Your Biggest Expense Is Income Tax

Most business owners know what they owe in taxes but do not realize how much control they actually have. Tax planning should be proactive and strategic, not a once-a-year event.

2. Defined Benefit Pension Plans Are Massively Underused

High-income sole proprietors and small business owners can potentially write off hundreds of thousands of dollars annually through properly structured defined benefit plans.

This is one of the most overlooked strategies in small business tax planning.

3. Entity Structure Matters

Over 100K to 150K income? An S-corp may reduce Social Security tax exposure.
Under 20K income? A sole proprietorship may be sufficient.
Compensation structure and reasonable salary must be defensible in an audit.

4. Documentation Wins Audits

Whether deducting vehicles, mileage, or home office expenses, documentation is critical.

Use mileage tracking apps.
Track business use consistently.
Avoid aggressive deductions that cannot be defended as reasonable.

5. Banner Year? Buy Smart and Deduct Strategically

If revenue exceeds expectations:

Consider Section 179 deductions for equipment purchases.
Evaluate vehicles over 6,000 pounds for accelerated depreciation.
Make strategic investments before year-end.

6. Bad Year? Consider Roth Conversions

A low-income year can be an opportunity to convert traditional IRA assets to a Roth IRA at lower tax rates, positioning yourself for long-term tax-free growth.

7. 401(k) Plans Are Essential

For most Americans earning under 400K to 500K annually, maxing out a 401(k) is one of the smartest wealth-building moves available.

Immediate tax reduction
Long-term compounded growth
Predictable retirement income structure
Potential seven-figure balances at retirement

8. Putting Children on Payroll Can Be Strategic

If structured correctly:

Children working in a sole proprietorship can earn income free from Social Security tax.
Income can be redirected into 529 plans.
Proper documentation and legitimate work are essential.

9. Spouses on Payroll Create Double Retirement Power

When a spouse legitimately works in the business:

Two retirement accounts can be funded.
Social Security benefits increase.
Long-term household wealth improves significantly.

10. Protect Against Worst-Case Scenarios

Jack’s firm grew 400 percent after the 2008 financial crisis because clients were prepared. Wealth strategy is not just about growth. It is about resilience.

Great Moments from the Episode

00:01 The Big Reframe: Sometimes the career setback you are replaying becomes the wealth strategy that makes you unstoppable.
01:00 From AAA Umpire to Financial Advisor: Jack shares how his near-Major League umpiring career ended and how he redirected his focus into education and credentials.
03:30 Poverty in the Minor Leagues: A candid look at the financial realities of minor league baseball.
05:35 The Honesty Factor: How umpiring shaped Jack’s approach to trust and client service.
07:00 Your Largest Expense Is Income Tax: Why most business owners underestimate their ability to control tax liability.
10:45 Handling a Surprise Banner Year: Strategies to reduce tax impact when revenue spikes unexpectedly.
11:15 Turning a Bad Year Into an Opportunity: Using Roth conversions strategically during income downturns.
13:30 Vehicle Deductions and Documentation: Where business use becomes defensible and where it becomes risky.
17:00 Why 401(k)s Are Essential: A strong defense of retirement plans for business owners and employees alike.
18:54 Paying Your Kids Through the Business: A practical look at compliant, strategic payroll for children.

Watch The Full Episode On Youtube:

Memorable Quotes

Everybody knows what they owe or what their refund is, but they do not realize how much control they actually have over that number.

If you are a pig with deductions, you are going to get slaughtered.

If you are not maxing out your 401(k), you are making a mistake.

Final Thoughts

Jack Ojo’s story proves that career disappointment can become the foundation for financial mastery. His journey from AAA umpire to nationally recognized tax strategist underscores a powerful truth.

Discipline, education, and proactive tax planning create long-term wealth.

For entrepreneurs, this episode is a reminder that taxes are not just an annual event. They are a strategic lever that, when handled correctly, can transform your financial future.

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.936)

What if the career setback you’re still replaying is actually the best wealth strategy you’ll ever stumble into because it forces you to build new skills, new discipline, and maybe a new plan that finally makes you unstoppable. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Jack Oujo. He’s the founder and lead advisor of Oujo Wealth Strategies, one of the nation’s largest tax

focused wealth management firms. holds multiple professional designations, including a whole bunch of letters and a master’s in taxation. But before starting the firm, he was a major league baseball umpire advancing to AAA and winning the Joe Ryan Award as the highest rated minor league umpiring prospect. But today we’re going to talk about both his journey and his new book, Two Smart

to be an umpire. So Jack, welcome to the show.

Jack D. Oujo (01:00.182)

Thanks, John. It’s a pleasure to be with you today.

John Jantsch (01:02.332)

All right, so the first question we just need to get out of the way is, what do you think of the rule change on balls and strikes this year that’s going to go to the majors?

Jack D. Oujo (01:13.038)

I am actually in favor of it. And the reason why I’m in favor of it is because you’ve had, you have three boxes on the TV, one from the home team, one from the visiting team, and they’re normally set by some intern that works there. It’s not the actual strike zone, by the way. You have the one from Major League Baseball and the human being. So let’s get one right.

John Jantsch (01:15.003)

Yeah?

John Jantsch (01:28.104)

is that right?

John Jantsch (01:32.368)

Yeah, yeah. Do you feel umpires feel that way too? Because again, I know they’re going to they’re going to test it with here we’re to do the whole show on this. I know they’re going to test it with you know, only get a couple challenges. But you know, every batter thinks it’s a ball and every pitcher thinks it’s a strike. So

Jack D. Oujo (01:42.382)

Sure.

Jack D. Oujo (01:49.87)

I was going over with one major league umpire, his retirement plan. was in his late fifties. And I told him he was financially independent, was working because he wanted to. said, how much longer do you want to go? And he goes, Oh, a few more years, Jack, till I’m 59. He goes, they bring in the electronic strike zone. goes, I’ll go till I’m 79. Won’t be under any pressure, nothing along those lines. So I think they like it. creates more jobs.

It makes the job less valuable in my view. Why do you need to pay somebody $400,000 a year when you have a phone that can get the pictures right? So it’s like anything else in our society, AI, you’d be taking away another job.

John Jantsch (02:24.794)

Yeah. Yeah. All right. So let’s talk a little bit about your journey. had, I mean, you, while it sounds like you loved umpiring, it was a bit of a career disappointment. So how did you turn that into where you are today?

Jack D. Oujo (02:41.346)

Well, yeah, during the eight years I was in the minor leagues, I was smart enough, no pun intended, to work in the off seasons as an accountant. I had good accounting jobs in New York City, and so I was gaining experience.

And when I got my release, I was surprised because I was on the verge of the major leagues and there was, I write about it too smart to be an umpire. But nevertheless, I decided to focus on getting as much education as I could. I didn’t know where it would lead, but I was so hurt from the baseball experience that I’d work nine to five.

And then at night, I spent the next four years getting my CPA, CFP, master’s in taxation, securities and insurance license, not knowing where it would lead. And so that was the focus, getting education and try to reinvent myself from the ground up.

John Jantsch (03:21.03)

Mm.

John Jantsch (03:31.526)

So, I mean, did you look at it then as that’s plan B? I don’t know what plan B looks like, but that’s plan B.

Jack D. Oujo (03:39.768)

Plan B was always a career in public accounting, but as I was in public accounting, I realized how boring that was. You your professional baseball umpired 30,000 people in the stands and I found myself counting hats one day verifying an inventory. so that’s how I transferred into wealth management.

John Jantsch (03:58.11)

it is a, is a minor league umpire in particular not paid enough for that to be their full-time job. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you’re getting on the buses with them, huh? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, so you, so most of them were doing like you were, another gig, which was, some mechanic work, right? Tax prep.

Jack D. Oujo (04:04.032)

It’s poverty. It’s an absolute disgrace. And that goes for the players too. Managers. We drive our own cars. We drive our own transportation. It’s even worse than people think. Yeah, it’s bad.

Jack D. Oujo (04:23.798)

In my case, was accounting work. A lot of people in baseball work for UPS, it seemed, in the off seasons. But unless you had the resources from family, which most people did not, you had to find something to do once the season ended.

John Jantsch (04:35.958)

I, when I was in high school, a friend of mine worked at, worked for the Royals as a clubhouse attendant. and, so every now and then I got to fill in and do that. And one of my favorite things to do was bring the, the after game meal to the umpires because it always slipped me five bucks or something. so even in poverty, they were taking care of the little guy. So.

Jack D. Oujo (04:57.482)

Absolutely, The manager of the Padres now, I don’t know why his name escapes me, but he was actually our clubby in Charlotte in double A and actually rose to become a major league manager, current manager of the Padres.

John Jantsch (05:11.378)

wow. That’s awesome. Yeah, that’s awesome. That’s awesome. Yeah. So now fast forward a bit. You’ve built one of the nation’s largest tax focused wealth firms. Talk a little bit about, I mean, was there a secret sauce? Was there an approach to client relationships? Did your past kind of really guide you? What was your, what do you attribute to your success, I guess?

Jack D. Oujo (05:35.082)

I think people like the honesty and I think that’s from the umpire in me. I don’t know if they think I’m the brightest bulb, but they know they can trust me. And after going through the baseball experience, I did believe in protecting against worst case scenarios. When the terrorist attack took place in 2001, if you remember back then, the thinking was, will there be another attack? It’s a question of when.

John Jantsch (05:39.43)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (06:00.016)

Mm-hmm.

Jack D. Oujo (06:00.202)

And I prepared my clients for worst case scenarios. When 2008 hit, they were prepared, although I didn’t know what a reverse credit default swap was at the time. And the business really prospered, like went to a whole nother level after 2008, growing by 400%. But I think just emphasizing client service, a four seasons type of service with clients was probably.

John Jantsch (06:24.828)

So I’m sure that you are very aware of this. Certainly a lot of business owners that we work with, tax planning means giving their stuff at the end of the year to their accountant, as opposed to anything that would be proactive. What’s the biggest misconception you hear from clients, especially businesses, when it comes to taxes and wealth planning?

Jack D. Oujo (06:47.256)

Sure, when I meet with a client for the first time, I always ask them what their biggest expense is and they say their mortgage and I go, no, isn’t. And they argue with me until I explain to them it’s their income tax. Everybody knows their refund or what they owe, but they don’t know they have much greater control over that expense than they think. I think people also think that wealthy people don’t pay taxes when they do. And arranging your affairs,

to reduce your taxes in a way that’s consistent with your goals and objectives is critical for clients. again, maximizing retirement accounts, having a side hustle, I think helps employees. But arranging your affairs to pay the least possible tax in a way consistent with your goals is important.

John Jantsch (07:32.432)

So do you want to get into the nitty gritty on that a little bit? mean, are there specific things, again, a lot of our listeners are entrepreneurs, small business owners. Are there things that you just consistently see they’re not doing or that they clearly could or need to stop doing or they could do better?

Jack D. Oujo (07:51.906)

Well, one huge idea, if you’re dealing with a sole proprietor with no employees or few employees that makes a lot of money, they ought to consider a defined benefit pension plan. We’ve had clients that have million dollar incomes that we’re able to get five or $600,000 write-offs by having defined benefit plans. So figuring out the best pension plan for yourself is critical for a business owner. The second thing would be entity structure.

John Jantsch (08:02.118)

Mm-hmm.

Jack D. Oujo (08:17.068)

Should you be an S-corp, LLC, what have you? Should you have your children on the payroll and things along those lines? What type of accounting method you should have, cash or accrual, to get into the nuts and bolts of those things. But again, realizing you want to make as much money as possible.

John Jantsch (08:17.146)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:22.459)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (08:30.972)

Well, I yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, are there, again, I know that people are in different situations, but when somebody came to you with a blank slate and said, what should my entity be? know, should I have a 401k? I mean, what is kind of your standard advice?

Jack D. Oujo (08:48.014)

Yeah, I think if your income is over $100,000, $150,000 a year, you should be an S corporation because you can play around with what reasonable compensation is and be able to avoid social security taxes. If you’re making under $20,000 a year, just being a sole proprietor is fine. But you can avoid a lot of taxes just with a single 401k plan, things along those lines. So it depends.

John Jantsch (09:06.533)

Mm-hmm.

Jack D. Oujo (09:15.374)

over when you get over $200,000, then we could have some fun with other types of pension plans. And if you’re in a service business, you should probably never be an accrual based taxpayer because your payables are going to be greater than what your receivables are. So again, it’s not one size fits all.

John Jantsch (09:37.616)

Yeah, sure, sure, sure. So are there what people might call creative or lesser known deductions or credits that you see people are really not even aware of or certainly are underutilized?

Jack D. Oujo (09:52.97)

I’m just harping on these pension plans again. I hate to say it, but they’re missed by everybody. They’re missed. And the timing of income at the end of the year, being able to postpone receipts, things along those lines. There isn’t a magic thing. A lot of loopholes have been closed. What used to be pretty cool in the 70s and 80s, they’re gone now. again, those are the things you have to look at. Start with pension plans and then we can talk after that.

John Jantsch (09:55.014)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:21.958)

So I work with lot of entrepreneurs that end up having really great year, really bad year, really banner year. It seems to be kind of up and down. And so a lot of them come to the end of the year and it was like, crap, we’ve had a banner year this year, which is great, but I’m an S corp and now I’m going to get a giant tax bill. What are some things that people can do when they have more revenue than expected?

Jack D. Oujo (10:46.84)

Well, you’re looking to buy equipment and take a big section 179 deduction. So if you have a big income, example, you could buy a vehicle. it’s over 6,000 pounds, you can write, off a very large vehicle. I would look at things that you want to buy for your business and that you can write off in one year would probably be the biggest thing. On the other hand, have you ever really lousy year where you actually lost money for the year on a personal basis? And we’ve done this for many clients is looking to do Roth conversions.

John Jantsch (10:51.036)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:16.144)

Mm-hmm.

Jack D. Oujo (11:16.238)

where you’re taking your IRA, you’re paying taxes on it, it never gets taxed again, and you’re kind of creating income where there isn’t any that exists and utilizing that negative opportunity for something positive for the old age version of yourself.

John Jantsch (11:30.714)

Yeah, another hot topic that I run across a lot is, especially for owners, obviously, is salary versus distributions. You know, you have a lot of people giving the advice of, pay yourself just enough that the IRS thinks that’s OK, and then distribute, because you’re going to save on some taxes. Is it that cut and dried?

Jack D. Oujo (11:50.188)

No, not at all. The tax system is always going to be complicated because we derive our income in different ways. I’ve represented clients in many audits over the year. You’re trying to sell a reasonable person on what is reasonable in this situation. So you have to pay yourself a quote unquote reasonable salary.

John Jantsch (12:05.725)

Alright.

Jack D. Oujo (12:11.214)

So if you made $100,000 for the year and paid yourself $10,000, most people would say that’s BS, that’s not correct. But if you paid yourself 40 or 50,000, $50,000 in distributions, now you could kind of make a case that that’s reasonable. So again, it depends on the situation. There’s people, you you don’t want to be a pig with this stuff. I found the IRS auditors.

John Jantsch (12:33.607)

Mm-hmm.

Jack D. Oujo (12:37.174)

to be very reasonable people, believe it or not. You can always get one that’s an exception, but most of the time they’re trying to be reasonable. And most times you can settle these things in minutes, quite frankly. If you’re a pig, you’re gonna get slaughtered, know, that’s the way I see

John Jantsch (12:49.959)

Yeah.

So talk a little, I know this might be a little dry, make it, try to make it sexy if you can for me, but depreciation, equipment purchases, like you’re talking about vehicles. So let’s say, this probably is gonna verge on the pig, but let’s say somebody buys a recreational type of vehicle, $100,000 conversion van type of thing, and they also own a business. Where’s the line on…

Are they using that for business? Are they not using that for business? Where does that get a little fuzzy?

Jack D. Oujo (13:30.11)

If you’re using your car and your business, again, we have to sell this reasonable person that we’re using this for business and painting a sign on the side of it is not, you you’re going to fly with not the IRS is playing a game of where does this number come from? How many miles did you drive? And there’s, there’s apps that I use one called mileage IQ, and you don’t have to think about it. So they’re looking for how many miles did you drive and improve it?

John Jantsch (13:39.975)

you

John Jantsch (13:50.695)

Mm.

John Jantsch (13:55.965)

Yeah.

Jack D. Oujo (13:56.142)

And if you have this documentation, you’re starting to sell the auditor that these things are real. So again, if the vehicle’s over 6,000 pounds, you write the whole thing off in one year. And then I would strongly advise people to use some kind of documentation tool. Mileage IQ is excellent. If you’re lazy and don’t do that, then having your oil changed at the of the year where you could document odometer readings.

John Jantsch (14:20.925)

All

Jack D. Oujo (14:25.026)

That would be a good thing to do, but you’re playing a game of documentation, I found, with the office. As long as you can document things and, again, sell a reasonable person on things, you’re going to be okay. That’s the line.

John Jantsch (14:29.241)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:38.917)

Have you seen a lot of organizations have distributed workforce these days? So people working out of their homes in 15 states. What does that do for the business entity tax picture? And then also, what does it do for the individual? So if an individual is employed, they have to keep an office to say, I mean, is that a deduction for that individual?

Jack D. Oujo (15:00.248)

Sure, the way I would do that if they want to be smart about it, if they can get with their employer, they can change their compensation structure around so that part of this is salary and part of it is a direct employee business expense. So if your office is in New York City and you work in Idaho, let’s say.

you make $100,000 a year, you could restructure your salary. So $15,000 of it is reimbursement for office expenses, non-taxable to the person and item, deductible for the employer. then again, I use an app called Domicile 365 because I spend most of my time in Florida and some of it in New Jersey. So if I was examined by New Jersey, this app tracks me every 15 minutes.

John Jantsch (15:30.007)

I see,

Jack D. Oujo (15:47.574)

and I attached a summary to my New Jersey return. I report New Jersey income, but only for the days that I worked in New Jersey. So again, this documentation game comes in the play, but structure, I advise the umpires and Major League Baseball to do this, to try to restructure their salary so part of its expense reimburses.

John Jantsch (16:03.847)

Yeah. Would health insurance fall into that category? Let’s say somebody gets their spouse is they’re able to get on their spouse’s plan, but it’s $300, you know, to add, could the employer pay that and actually deduct that? And that would be pre-tax or not.

Jack D. Oujo (16:18.221)

The could use some sort of section 125 plan or if there’s a high deductible plan, something along those lines could be a win for the employee and the employer. In my business, I’ve had high deductible medical plans and I contributed money to our employees HSA accounts that they could take with them. It was not a use it or lose it feature. And that was good for both me and for them.

John Jantsch (16:27.421)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (16:44.411)

Yeah. Where do you fall on 401k? they, I, again, I know it’s people probably trying to sell another tool, but I see a lot of, I’d see a lot of people kind of bashing 401k’s as not a great business tool or not a great employee tool.

Jack D. Oujo (17:01.396)

Anybody that bashes 401Ks you should run away from, like the place with non-fire. For people, it’s one good thing that Jimmy Carter did as president was put in the 401K plans. Sorry to say that, but…

Everybody should make almost everybody should make maximum use of 401k plans where they’re missed by people is a lot of times I’ve seen us two spouses working where one person makes big money and another one has some sort of part-time job and they have this mental accounting on money They should both be utilizing maxing out 401k plans because I found that a lot of people in America when they go to retire end up with a paid-off mortgage Which I’m a huge fan of by the way I’m a big believer in paying off your mortgage when reasonable to do so I have

John Jantsch (17:28.775)

Mm-hmm.

Jack D. Oujo (17:45.168)

haven’t had a mortgage on my house in 25 years. But they come in with these 401k plans that are seven figures and then they live off of them. They up and downsize their home and they have more money to play with. But that’s the, for most Americans that make under $400,000 a year, $500,000 a year, you’re crazy not to max out your 401k plans. And my three adult children, I preach that to them and I’m glad they listen to me on it. go, max it out, max it out, max it out.

John Jantsch (17:53.445)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jack D. Oujo (18:15.088)

reducing, in my opinion, your largest expense, which is your income tax. You’re cutting that down and building up this lump sum of capital you need to retire. And this business that you have large taxes and retirement is also a bunch of malarkey. You know, the tax rate under $90,000 is 12%. You have $3 million in your IRA take out 4 % a year, 120 grand. You got 90,000 at 12 % and the $30,000 standard deduction. How is that wrong? that’s

John Jantsch (18:19.314)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:32.39)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (18:42.172)

Yeah.

Jack D. Oujo (18:43.692)

That’s how I feel, very strong mistake.

John Jantsch (18:44.869)

Yeah, well, so talk to talk one more time about employer putting children or spouses on the payroll, because I think that’s a that’s something that a lot of people overlook as well.

Jack D. Oujo (18:54.798)

Sure. First of all, children can only be on the payroll if you’re a sole proprietor or a single member, LLC, if you want to avoid payroll taxes on them. And they have to do work and it should be documented. But if you pay your child that works in the business $10,000, let’s say, you avoid all the social security taxes.

John Jantsch (19:07.549)

Okay, yeah, right. Yeah.

Jack D. Oujo (19:19.086)

They get taxed at that rate, which is hardly anything. And then you put that in your 529 plan. So the regular business owner that goes, I make too much money for any child aid. That’s your own loophole to get, you you probably save three to $4,000 just having your kid on a payroll for $10,000.

John Jantsch (19:23.975)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:36.605)

And you’re giving them money that you would have probably given them anyway, right?

Jack D. Oujo (19:41.431)

My kids were on the payroll for a long time. I remember my son, is my youngest, who’s now 30 years of age when he was four years old. My wife got a letter from Social Security saying, here, Mr. Financial Advisor.

Social Security wants to know what my son Matthew did for work. And I said, my son worked on the shredding machine in the office. He stuffed envelopes and he told everybody at his preschool what his father did for a living, which significantly resulted in new business and sent them in and never heard from them again. know, but he did work in the business, you know, the question of what is it worth? know, the tax law for a millionaire is the same for a poor person. And you make that argument.

John Jantsch (20:10.267)

Ha ha.

John Jantsch (20:16.071)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jack D. Oujo (20:23.726)

My son modeled for the firm brochure. How is his modeling different than somebody else? Unless you’re the laws for them and not for me. So that are the arguments you could make there. But again, you have to, you can’t put them on the payroll for $100,000 for you.

John Jantsch (20:23.869)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:37.775)

Yeah, well, I will say, you know, for a lot of entrepreneurs, you know, spouse, particularly a spouse that is doesn’t have another career outside the home. mean, they’re there. I guarantee it. They’re working.

Jack D. Oujo (20:51.864)

My spouse, my wife Eileen has been on the payroll for 30 years, always maxing out the 401k plan and she could tell anybody what she did because she did work in the office and work very hard. But it’s two pension plans, one for me, one for her and now they’re telephone.

John Jantsch (21:00.369)

Yep. Yep.

Well, and, she contributed to social security, I suspect. Right. So she’s going to get a social security check that she wasn’t going to get otherwise. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, for those of you that, like it, when we talk about AI and marketing and creative things, I’m sorry, we had to get down into the weeds on, on another really important, as you said, the biggest expense for a lot of businesses or certainly a lot of business owners. Jack, before we let you go,

Jack D. Oujo (21:07.63)

Yes, also.

Jack D. Oujo (21:12.302)

100 % absolutely correct.

John Jantsch (21:33.495)

Is there some place you’d invite people to find out more about your work, find out about too smart to be an umpire?

Jack D. Oujo (21:40.076)

Yeah, there’s a website, TooSmartToBeAnUmpire.com. They can go on Amazon and read all the reviews that are on Amazon right now. I’m thrilled. I’m a first time author. So when TooSmartToBeAnUmpire came out, I wasn’t sure I was going to go over. And it’s borderline bestseller list right now. So there’s a website, TooSmartToBeAnUmpire.com and also Ojo Wealth Strategies, which I’m the founder of. People can check out that website. Jason Gordon and Anthony Sandimerski are running the firm now.

Jason’s 35 and he’s worked in my office since he was 16 years old. So they’re well credentialed and great guys, so that’s where they can find out.

John Jantsch (22:16.605)

Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Jack D. Oujo (22:22.242)

Thanks, John.

Rethinking Workflows in the Age of AI

Rethinking Workflows in the Age of AI written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch the Full Episode

Episode Overview

AI is moving fast, but most organizations weren’t built for that kind of speed. In this episode, John Jantsch talks with Stephen Wunker, Managing Director of New Markets Advisors and author of AI and the Octopus Organization: Building the Super Intelligent Firm.
They unpack why “adding AI” to existing processes is not the win, and why the winners will redesign how decisions, learning, and accountability work.

Using the octopus as a metaphor, distributed brains connected by a coordinating nerve ring—Wunker explains how AI can enable distributed intelligence across teams while maintaining contextual alignment through data, governance, and culture. The conversation dives into “golden workflows,” the danger of unmanaged pilots, and how organizations can move from incremental improvements to
true workflow transformation.

About Stephen Wunker

Stephen Wunker is the Managing Director of New Markets Advisors, where he has advised hundreds of organizations on growth, innovation, and new market strategy. He is the author of AI and the Octopus Organization: Building the Super Intelligent Firm, focused on helping companies redesign operations and decision systems to capture the full value of AI.

Key Takeaways

1) AI is not just better software

Incremental upgrades (e.g., swapping interfaces for chatbots) help, but the real gain comes from redesigning workflows end-to-end.
Think: turning a 21-step process into 3 steps—possibly different steps—not just automating a single task.

2) The Octopus Organization enables distributed intelligence

Like an octopus’ arms sensing and acting independently, AI can push decisions closer to where work happens.
Alignment comes from shared context: connected data, governance, and coordination mechanisms.

3) Stop running “900 pilots”

Uncoordinated AI experimentation is distracting and risky.
Build a repeatable way to assess, measure, and either scale or kill pilots.

4) Use the ABC approach

A: AI-fy the present (within guidelines).
B: Become great at experimentation (hypotheses, pre/post measures, learning loops).
C: Create the future (rethink a few high-impact workflows to become “lighthouses”).

5) Focus on “golden workflows”

Pick the few workflows that drive the most time, cost, or strategic value—and redesign those first.
Examples discussed: campaign planning, internal announcements, service-line marketing messaging.

6) The three hearts: analytical, agile, aligned

Analytical: data-driven decision-making.
Agile: ability to adapt quickly (often hardest for larger firms).
Aligned: shared purpose and emotional coherence during disruption.

7) AI supercharges collaboration

The “super intelligent firm” is less about super-human AI and more about AI improving human collaboration and coordination.
Right information to the right people at the right time elevates firm-wide intelligence.

Great Moments (Timestamps)

00:01 Why most organizations aren’t built for AI speed
01:17 The octopus metaphor: nine brains and distributed intelligence
02:44 The real unlock: redesign workflows, not just interfaces
03:53 Risks and requirements: data quality, human-in-the-loop, and decision boundaries
05:25 The danger of scattered usage: “no brain, no guardrails, no retention”
06:41 ABC framework: AI-fy the present, experiment well, create the future
09:33 Campaign planning: cutting cycles with real-time prototyping and shared context
10:24 Golden workflows: prioritize what matters most
12:16 The three hearts: analytical, agile, aligned
15:29 What “super intelligent firm” really means: collaboration amplified
16:29 Iteration at scale: personalization and massive variant testing
17:16 Octopus principles for a 20-person firm vs. a 200-person firm
17:45 Electricity analogy: the assembly-line moment requires rethinking work
19:17 A practical starting point: align AI with strategic priorities
20:14 Where to find the book and connect

Catch the Full Episode on Youtube

Memorable Quotes

“The real unlock comes from rethinking the system of work and the workflows.”

“The era of having 900 pilots… is unsustainable.”

“Where firms get their intelligence is through collaboration of people.”

“AI has the potential to supercharge that collaboration by making sure the right information goes to the right people at the right time.”

Resources Mentioned

AI and the Octopus Organization: Building the Super Intelligent Firm — Stephen Wunker (available on Amazon)
Book site: AIandtheOctopus.com
Connect: Stephen Wunker on LinkedIn

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.749)

AI is moving fast. No question about that. But I think the biggest challenge for a lot of organizations is they just weren’t built for this kind of speed. My guest today says the winners won’t just adopt AI, they’ll redesign how decisions, learning and accountability work. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Stephen Wunker. He’s the managing director of New Market Markets Advisors, where he’s advised

hundreds of organizations on growth, innovation, and new market strategy. He’s also the author of a book we’re going to talk about today, AI and the Octopus Organization, Building the Super Intelligent Firm. So Steve, welcome to the show.

Steve Wunker (00:48.078)

Thanks for having me on.

John Jantsch (00:50.051)

All right. So it seems like I start here, long time listeners know I always start with titles, words and titles. So I think when you suggested this show, I think the thing that got my attention probably is for a lot of people, it’s just the word octopus. It’s a metaphor that’s used a lot in business. So what’s the simplest way for you to explain an octopus organization?

Steve Wunker (01:17.582)

So an octopus has a biology that is weird for us humans. It’s very unusual in the animal kingdom in general. It has nine brains, one in its central head and one for each of its arms.

which means each arm can sense and think and act independently. And yet all those brains are interconnected with the nerve ring. So they don’t need to route everything through the central brain, but they can sort of coordinate semi-autonomously with complete contextual awareness. And it’s a great metaphor for how an AI infused organization is to operate with distributed intelligence, a lot of local sensing and acting, and yet

John Jantsch (01:31.488)

Thank

Steve Wunker (02:01.473)

with complete contextual awareness. So we developed that model in detail as a guideline for how organizations should adapt to really make the most out of AI.

John Jantsch (02:14.499)

So I’m seeing a lot of organizations, especially we work with a lot of small to mid-sized businesses that really are not compartmentalized necessarily like larger organizations might be. And I get the feeling that they look at AI as like software. It’s like, this is just a better version of Word, you know, or something like that. So what do you, I’m curious if you’re encountering that as well, or if you see that as a clear sign that they’re not thinking about this distributed intelligence.

Steve Wunker (02:44.749)

John, I’m seeing it all over the place. Small organizations, certainly large enterprises. I was with 100 product managers earlier this week in Denver talking to a group there. And they were reporting it even in their software companies. They were getting a lot of requests for these very incremental improvements. And all that is nice, but the real unlock comes from rethinking the system of work and the workflows, not through swapping some

regular interface with an open text box for a natural language chatbot. No, it comes through taking your 21-step process and making it three steps, albeit maybe three different steps.

John Jantsch (03:29.411)

Yeah, or automating the handoff between those steps, right? Yeah. So the idea, at least as I sense it from you, the idea of the eight arms is that we’re pushing decisions out in a lot of cases, decentralizing. Where’s the risk in that? Where does that break down? What role does data play in making that happen?

Steve Wunker (03:32.076)

Yes.

Steve Wunker (03:53.355)

look, you need to have decent data in order to make decent decisions. So that’s certainly one.

John Jantsch (03:55.799)

Right? Yeah.

Steve Wunker (03:58.955)

People need to know how far they can go. You also probably don’t want to take a human entirely out of the process. But let me give you an example of how to do this in a marketing situation. We worked recently with the marketing department of a major health system and they wanted to infuse AI in what they did. So one issue they would have is that they would work with the different service lines in a hospital trying to create a marketing message for them.

but often the service lines didn’t even know themselves what their marketing messages should be. So for the lower priority stuff, it’s like the Urology department wants to do some brochure about their services. They were able to put into very simple AI system queries and a sort of interactive process to help Urology come to that messaging itself, to draft messaging for it, help them create the output. And then the human can get involved.

John Jantsch (04:31.659)

Sure. Right.

Steve Wunker (04:58.849)

and say, well, how about we do this or we’re not quite aligned with the brand value, so we need to go in this direction. But it took out so much of the work that marketing was spending on this relatively low priority task. And actually it was better for the people in urology as well, that they didn’t have to go back and forth and back and forth over period of weeks. They could do it all with the self-service engine.

John Jantsch (05:13.613)

Yeah, yeah. Right.

John Jantsch (05:25.091)

So one of the things that we’ve also encountered is a lot of, you know, as organizations, especially if there’s not like a leadership mandate for AI, a lot of organizations have various people that have said, well, I can figure out chat GPT, you know, and so they’re using it to kind of do their work better, but there’s no real central guardrails. There’s no brain, there’s no retention even of, you know, what they’ve built. I mean, how do you build a system that is, that starts, of course, from leadership? And I know part…

part of the answer is going to be buy in from leadership. But how do you build something that has the guardrails that we’re going to speak like the brand, we’re not going to use the wrong language. So that if you have all these people in various departments or various locations even using the tools, how do you set the guardrails up?

Steve Wunker (06:11.787)

Yeah, the era of having 900 pilots, I hope, is drawing to a close. They are distracting. They are dangerous. Yeah, maybe they got people comfortable with AI, but it is unsustainable. So look, you need to have a common data foundation with some data quality. So definitely invest in having decent quality data, ideally some sort of data lake or other system to provide that free flow of information throughout the organization. There needs to be some governance guidelines and governance process.

John Jantsch (06:14.947)

Right.

John Jantsch (06:23.873)

Right.

Steve Wunker (06:41.711)

on how AI should and should not be used. But then there also needs to be a mechanism to assess these pilots that are still going to occur. look, we have a three-step system, ABC. A, AIFI the present. You want to go AIFI what you’re doing now?

Great, let’s make sure it’s within guidelines, but go do it. B, become great at experimentation. So what’s actually your hypothesis? What are you measuring pre and post? What did you learn? How do you kill pilots that aren’t working? And then C, which too few organizations are doing, is create the future. So for a handful of things, you can’t do it for everything all at once.

John Jantsch (07:18.027)

Mm-hmm.

Steve Wunker (07:21.803)

but in a handful of golden workflows, as we call them, what can you do to really rethink what you’re doing and make those sort of a lighthouse for the rest of the organization. Do that in a half dozen situations and then move on to the next half dozen and the next half dozen.

John Jantsch (07:40.367)

So I want to come back to golden workflows, because I want you to explain that. I will say another thing that we encounter a lot is that people are just applying AI to maybe a process that’s non-existent or broken, as opposed to, you know, I always tell people start with workflows first and then use AI, you know, to automate them. Don’t tell AI, create me a workflow for this. How do you work with organizations where they really need to

I think I said at the beginning, they really need to rethink how they even do workflows, how they even serve their clients.

Steve Wunker (08:16.397)

So you need to understand what your starting point is and where all the disconnects. But then don’t just think about what might we automate. You want to think about what humans shouldn’t be doing because AI could do it better. What won’t they do because it’s just too time consuming but it would be valuable. And what can’t they do because it’s just overwhelming in the amount of detail.

John Jantsch (08:19.095)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (08:39.629)

Wait, you forgot what they hate to do. That’s one of my favorites.

Steve Wunker (08:42.861)

Yes, maybe that should be an it shouldn’t do as well. yeah, look, so anyway, we have the can’t show quote. And when you do that, then you can really rethink, okay, with AI, what makes what does this make possible? So we did this recently, another marketing department in campaign planning, and they would spend about half a year planning campaigns for people in the business, because there’d be infinite going back and forth, back and forth, and then they have to go to the agency.

John Jantsch (09:07.971)

Hmm.

Steve Wunker (09:12.709)

and all these disconnects and nobody quite knows what they want and you go through iteration after iteration, we were able to use those principles and come up with a system that was about half the time. Could actually be a lot less, but there’s still going to be some human indecision that you have to account for. But by just…

John Jantsch (09:30.433)

Mm. Yeah.

Steve Wunker (09:33.717)

reducing the number of cycling because you can real-time prototype stuff, get real decisions made right away, make sure everybody has context of what happened in the prior meeting so you eliminate a lot of those disconnects. You could do it in half the time. Now you can’t re-engineer every process all at once, but you can do it in some of those golden workflows like that one.

John Jantsch (09:55.908)

So again, you’re going back to the golden workflow. You’re saying that’s basically, know, a lot of times when, people bought into this whole idea of systems, they would try to systemize everything and just get overwhelmed because there were 740 systems and 723 of them didn’t matter. So as a golden workflow in your vernacular, kind of like what’s, what’s a real impact one that we absolutely have to get right.

Steve Wunker (10:24.609)

Right, looked, mean, campaign planning was a great example because there was real money being spent and a lot of time. There would be others, same marketing department, with press releases or even internal announcements about what was going on. People would go back and forth and back and forth. And I mean, it was a huge sink of time and you had about 40 people just doing internal communications. So.

John Jantsch (10:27.639)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:37.1)

Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (10:49.891)

And 28 of them were attorneys though, right?

Steve Wunker (10:54.437)

Well, I mean, so you do need levels of scrutiny, right? You cannot just think we’re going to replace humans with AI. It doesn’t work that way. But you do want those people focused on the highest use of their skills and not helping people make decisions that AI would probably help them make even better than a human consultation. So, I mean, we’re not seeing a tremendous amount of displacement of humans with AI. There’s some, in particular in things like call centers or whatever.

John Jantsch (11:01.291)

Right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:13.857)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:23.265)

Right, right.

Steve Wunker (11:23.501)

But more, it’s just ensuring that people can focus on the best use of their skills. That’s where the real productivity gains are.

John Jantsch (11:31.555)

I suspect I wouldn’t study to be a paralegal right now though either probably.

Steve Wunker (11:36.725)

No, that will, yeah, that one is already played out, right? So, and it’s an example, right? Auditors, there are some others that are really threatened, but that’s a minority of what most white collar jobs are.

John Jantsch (11:45.793)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, what we’re finding, and especially in knowledge work, that what it’s doing is not displacing people, but it is asking them to do their job differently. You know, to maybe manage AI as opposed to do the stuff that AI is now capable of doing. You started talking about the eight brains. I think I recall, don’t.

Doesn’t an octopus have three hearts also? So, so how does that metaphor, how does that metaphor come into play for you?

Steve Wunker (12:16.141)

It does indeed. And that is another chapter of the book.

So an octopus has different hearts for different purposes. And similarly, a company needs to have different operating modes as it enters this very dynamic period of AI-led disruption, also many other disruptions too. So we talk about the analytical heart.

which most companies are already pretty good at. The agile heart, which the bigger the company is, the worse it typically is at agility normally. And then the aligned heart of how do you make sure that people understand the common purpose and where people are going, particularly when there’s gonna be just a lot of turmoil in the workplace. And there is with the entry of AI. Being attuned to those emotional cadences in an organization is gonna be really, really important.

John Jantsch (12:47.639)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (13:02.071)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:09.347)

I mean, would that, could you break that down almost department wise? mean, or not even department, but function wise? Like that what I just heard you describing sounded like culture.

Steve Wunker (13:21.709)

It is, yes, and culture is incredibly important. We also have another chapter on emotion and the cultural side of change. Look, we think about culture sort of like a brick wall. The culture is the mortar in a brick wall. It is almost invisible.

but it gives the whole thing shape and coherence. But you start a brick wall with the bricks, which are the hard levers of management control, the way you select people and incent them and measure them, the way you allocate resources around an organization. If you don’t have that right, you could put up all the posters you want on the walls. It’s not going to change a thing. So get the bricks right, and then definitely think about the culture, but don’t just think about it as some isolated thing. It’s not.

John Jantsch (13:39.896)

Yes.

John Jantsch (13:55.799)

Yes.

John Jantsch (14:00.085)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (14:09.847)

I like that because unfortunately you do see some examples of performative culture that then doesn’t really deliver when you shine a light on what the company is actually doing. I think also in the subtitle you have the term super intelligent firm. What’s a super intelligent firm mean in terms of human terms maybe?

Steve Wunker (14:34.413)

So there’s a fallacy out there that AI is going to approach general intelligence, so being just like a human, or super intelligent, just like a human, but even more so. And that is based on providing a very human model to a machine. We evolved to who we are because we needed to escape the saber-toothed tiger. So we had to be good at a lot of stuff. But machines don’t. They need to be good at just a handful of things.

John Jantsch (14:52.419)

Thanks

Right. Yeah.

Steve Wunker (15:01.429)

So the super intelligent firm isn’t necessarily super intelligent AI. Where firms get their intelligence, where organizations get their intelligence, is through collaboration of people. It’s not just through brute force processing capability. If we want to say who has the most neurons, well, an antio wins that contest. So humans can do something which octopuses can’t, which is collaborate. And that’s how we build civilizations and cities.

John Jantsch (15:12.428)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (15:21.852)

Hehehehe

John Jantsch (15:27.299)

Yeah. All right.

Steve Wunker (15:29.779)

AI has the potential to supercharge that collaboration by making sure the right information goes to the right people at the right time. And it’s that use of AI that actually enhances our humanness that is the most high potential use of AI because that makes us then superintelligence as firms, as organizations.

John Jantsch (15:51.107)

So one of the things I tell people, because I think a lot of, especially in marketing, a lot of people’s first reaction was, look how much faster I can do stuff. And while there is a bit of truth to that, I think it’s not very interesting to just produce more content. What I think is really interesting is I can iterate 200 versions of something in about the same time it took me to do one. And I think that’s where the learning, because we all know that we’re just guessing sometimes in marketing.

by being able to test faster and experiment faster. That’s where we’re going to not just produce more, we’re gonna produce better and we’re gonna produce more personalized.

Steve Wunker (16:29.325)

I wrote a Forbes profile about a year ago on a company called Movable Inc. that provides email software to companies like LL Bean and Victoria’s Secret. LL Bean can run a million different variants of an email. Literally a million different variants.

John Jantsch (16:33.859)

Mmm.

John Jantsch (16:39.203)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:43.778)

Yep.

Steve Wunker (16:46.241)

And of course it’s A-B testing and it’s determining what’s best, but it’s also using that to be just super personalized in ways that we could never do as human beings. But you know, this is all possible now. So yes, we have to embrace that.

John Jantsch (17:00.418)

Yes.

So what would you, how does an octopus move look like for like a 20 person firm as opposed to say a 200 person?

Steve Wunker (17:16.161)

You know, the principles are actually often the same. The maladies may be different. Right? The 200 person, 2000 person, there’s a lot of discoordination and siloing. Hopefully in 20 person it’s not. But you still need to think about for your prioritized workflows, the things you really want to focus on, how do those principles of moving action closer to the suction cups on the tentacle, right? To the coal face.

John Jantsch (17:28.856)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:43.201)

Mm-hmm.

Steve Wunker (17:45.645)

does that look for you? What does AI enable in terms of what humans shouldn’t be doing or can’t be doing or just won’t be doing because it’s a poor use of their time? How would you really fundamentally rethink things? We talk a little bit about when electricity came. Initially, operators of factories swapped out their steam-powered machines for electric machines. And this is sort of equivalent to what we’re doing now. And that was nice.

But it actually took 35 years for the big unlock to come, which was the assembly line. And the assembly line could not happen without electrification. But it was that that unleashed the productivity, because it was a fundamental rethinking of how work was done. So we don’t have 35 years this time, but we need that equivalent of thinking about what’s the equivalent of an assembly line for our companies.

John Jantsch (18:15.043)

Thanks

John Jantsch (18:29.321)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:35.619)

So if a CEO company founders listening and they want to like start adopting this, obviously they need to get a copy of the book first. Do you also work with, do you come in and work with organizations to install this? Yeah. So, yeah, okay. So if somebody was listening then and they said, okay, what’s my 30 day plan? I mean, do you typically, I’m sure it starts with an assessment, but do you also typically, are there things that you often test?

Steve Wunker (18:49.597)

That’s my day job, yes.

John Jantsch (19:03.925)

almost right off the bat? Are there things that you tell them to stop doing right off the bat? And again, every instance is different, but are there some common things that you find?

Steve Wunker (19:17.037)

So it has to relate to your strategic priorities.

So AI can be better, faster, and cheaper all at once, but to some degree there is a trade-off. So what are you actually hoping to achieve? And how does that fit in with your objectives? What is impeding that today? And then let’s overlay that on where AI can be particularly useful. So we’re not just coming in with a hammer looking for nails, but we’re trying to understand what are the different priorities in the organization.

John Jantsch (19:31.779)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (19:50.147)

You

Steve Wunker (19:50.831)

And then based upon a handful of things that we can really focus on, let’s figure out how to redo that. Sometimes it starts all the way with the value proposition, but it can also just be very internal process oriented as well.

John Jantsch (20:04.387)

Well, again, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there someplace you would invite people to connect with you, find out more about your work, and obviously find out more about AI and the octopus organization?

Steve Wunker (20:14.925)

Sure, you can find the book on Amazon. The website for the book is AIandtheoctopus.com and that is actually a subdomain of our company New Market Advisors. Also, connect with me on LinkedIn. Feel free to write me. I do answer my emails. So, send me a DM and I’ll get back to you.

John Jantsch (20:34.719)

Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you stop by and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road, Steve.

Steve Wunker (20:40.481)

My pleasure John.

Selling Outcomes Instead of Services

Selling Outcomes Instead of Services written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Episode Overview

Joe Pine, co-founder of Strategic Horizons and author of The Experience Economy, returns to discuss his new book, The Transformation Economy: Guiding Customers to Achieve Their Aspirations. The conversation breaks down the shift from staging memorable experiences to guiding customers through meaningful change, where customers invest time for compounding benefits, and businesses are accountable for outcomes.

Guest Bio

Joe Pine is a bestselling author, keynote speaker, and management advisor. He co-founded
Strategic Horizons LLP and is best known for coining the term “The Experience Economy.”
Joe advises organizations on creating new forms of economic value through experiences and transformations. His latest book, The Transformation Economy, focuses on guiding customers to achieve lasting aspirations rather than short-term satisfaction.

Key Topics Covered

What the Transformation Economy is and why it follows the Experience Economy
The difference between time well spent and time well invested
Why transformation is not marketing language, but an economic offering
How B2B companies can design and deliver transformations
Productizing transformation without commoditizing it
The role of AI in diagnosis, coaching, and sustained change
Pricing for outcomes instead of activities or time
Why guarantees act as catalytic mechanisms for transformation
Marketing as an “invitational transformation” and identity change
First steps small businesses can take toward transformation-based offerings

Catch the full episode:

Key Takeaways

Transformation is the next level of economic value. Businesses evolve from commodities to goods, services, experiences, and now transformations—where customers pay to become someone new.
Experiences are the raw material for transformation. Experiences create memories; transformations create lasting change and compound future benefits.
You cannot change customers—only guide them. Customers transform themselves. Businesses act as guides, coaches, counselors, or navigators.
B2B transformation is often easier than B2C. Businesses buy offerings as a means to an end; uncovering the true aspiration unlocks transformation opportunities.
Outcome-based pricing changes everything. Transformations require charging for outcomes, often supported by guarantees that align incentives.
AI enables scalable personalization. AI can support diagnosis, coaching, and follow-through—helping productize transformation at scale.
Marketing can invite identity change. Great marketing experiences help customers move from “I use this” to “I am this.”
Follow-through determines success. Sustaining change is often more valuable than achieving the initial result.

Great Moments & Timestamps

00:03 – “The real premium left is helping customers become someone new.”
01:04 – Joe Pine defines the Transformation Economy in 60 seconds
02:03 – The difference between time well spent and time well invested
04:02 – Why companies must become guides, not sellers
05:21 – How even insurance companies can deliver transformation
07:13 – Trauma as a catalyst for transformation
10:58 – Can transformation be productized?
11:05 – The role of AI in scalable transformation
13:16 – Why outcomes change pricing and guarantees
17:13 – Marketing experiences as invitational transformations
19:37 – First steps businesses can take toward transformation

Inspiring Quotes

“With experiences, you provide time well spent. With transformations, you provide time well invested.”

— Joe Pine

“You don’t change customers. Customers change themselves. You guide them.”

— Joe Pine

“If you promise an outcome, you need to charge for the outcome.”

— Joe Pine

“Advertising is a phoniness-generating machine if it gets ahead of operational reality.”

— Joe Pine

Resources & Links

Book: The Transformation Economy: Guiding Customers to Achieve Their Aspirations
Website: StrategicHorizons.com
LinkedIn: Joe Pine

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:03.394)

Most businesses today are still trying to sell better features or even better experiences. Joe Pine says the real premium, maybe the only premium left is helping customers become someone new. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Joe Pine. He’s a bestselling author, keynote speaker and management advisor who co-founded Strategic Horizons. He’s best known for coining the term the experience economy. I wrote a book.

by that name was on this show as well. We’re going to talk today about his new book, The Transformation Economy, Guiding Customers to Achieve Their Aspirations. So Joe, welcome back to the show.

Joe Pine (00:45.659)

Thanks, John. It’s a pleasure to be with you again.

John Jantsch (00:47.976)

So let’s just get the terminology out of the way. You’ve developed, you’ve defined, should say, helped to find some economic arrows before. If somebody said, Joe, what’s this transformation economy? You got 60 seconds. What would you say?

Joe Pine (01:04.827)

Well, would say that it’s the transformations are the next level of value that beyond experiences, we’ve gone from a grand economy based off commodities to industrial economy based off goods to a service economy. Then we shifted into an experience economy. And now we’re in a transformation economy where companies can use experiences as the raw material to guide people to change, to help them achieve their aspirations to become who they want to become.

John Jantsch (01:30.542)

So this is more than just new marketing language. This is not like messaging. mean, you actually have to have something to transform somebody,

Joe Pine (01:37.991)

Yes, yes, it’s not marketing language at all. If it is, then you’re overhyping what you have. No, it’s about your economic offerings. It’s about what you, what you offer, what you sell, and then what you do for your customers.

John Jantsch (01:41.578)

Hahaha.

Yep.

John Jantsch (01:53.518)

So what would be a simple way for a company to test the difference between a memorable experience, which you talked about earlier, and real transformation?

Joe Pine (02:03.399)

Well, the basic issue is does it last? Right? Does it last with an experience? What you’re providing is time well spent. When people value the time they spend with you and it ends up in a memory and write in that memory needs to last over time. But of course it tends to dissipate over time with transformations. What you’re providing is time well invested. The people are investing their time with you in a way that’s going to yield compound dividends in the future, uh, by becoming a better person in, in some way. So that’s the.

lasting part that it’s about the outcome, the aspiration that you do achieve through generally not one life changing experience, generally a series of experiences.

John Jantsch (02:44.066)

Yeah, stages, almost. So while we kind of kidded that this is not just marketing speak, I mean, there probably is some new language a company, especially if they realize, hey, we do cause transformations. I mean, do we need to describe our company in different terms?

Joe Pine (03:02.405)

Well, yes, but some of the terms are big and scary. know, transformation is a big and scary term. I talk about four different types of transformation. One of them is metamorphosis because there’s no other word for it. And it’s a big and scary term, but there are lot of other kinds of aspirations that on a smaller scale than just changing core levels of identity. So you do need to figure out what are the best ways to talk about it for you. one is on like aspiration isn’t as big.

John Jantsch (03:07.032)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (03:13.494)

Yeah.

Joe Pine (03:32.329)

And then people say, okay, I get that as sort of a progression of bigger and bigger that you’re doing. You can talk about about change, obviously, and, and, and outcomes, right? I think that’s the big thing. It’s like, it’s like, what are your aspirations? What’s the outcome you want out of us working together? And how can we help you achieve that outcome? And another word is guide, you know, the, economic function you,

John Jantsch (03:35.021)

Yeah, yeah.

Joe Pine (04:02.259)

you extract commodities, you make goods, you deliver services, you stage experiences, but you guide transformations. You’re their guide, their coach, their expert, their counselor, their navigator, their advocate, whatever the right term is for you, I figured that out. What is our function? What are we doing for you that guides them?

John Jantsch (04:09.836)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (04:24.098)

So this doesn’t really discriminate between B2B and B2C, right? mean, somebody could easily say, well, I’m a weight loss coach. It’s clear the transformation I cause, right? But what about a B2B company? Are there B2B companies that can of stake that claim as well?

Joe Pine (04:32.133)

Right? Obviously transformation. Right.

Joe Pine (04:40.783)

Absolutely. And in many ways, it’s sort of easier to think about with B2B.

because recognize that if you sell to another business, that business doesn’t really want your offering. Sorry to tell you. It’s a means to an end, right? And what’s the end to what you’re offering as a means. And you may have to ask, you know, why do you want this? Why do you have to ask five whys as the old manufacturing slogan was until you get down to some core aspiration. And then now how can we help you achieve that aspiration and ideally subsume our current offerings into into that.

John Jantsch (05:16.078)

All right, but Joe, we’re a commodity business. mean, nobody wants what we sell. We sell insurance. How are we crossing transformation?

Joe Pine (05:21.607)

All right.

Oh, it’s easy. Easy. So, so people do in fact want insurance. mean, if they’re smart, right? It’s like, I’m a full believer in catastrophic insurance, right? I don’t, you know, shouldn’t need to do it for every visit of the doctors. Well, my wife says, man, I had to pay a copay. I’m like, it’s okay. It’s okay. We got the money for that. But if something catastrophic happens, we’re in trouble. So an easy way to think about it, services experiences, transformations, insurer, usher, insurer.

John Jantsch (05:29.473)

Yeah

John Jantsch (05:34.866)

Right.

Joe Pine (05:53.864)

All right, so insure basically means something bad happens, we pay you money. And that’s how most insurance companies view it, right? As a mere service. offshore means something bad happens, we make you feel better about it, we treat your emotions as well as your actual needs, we think of you at least as a whole person, as opposed to a mere claimant.

And then ensure is well, how about we, how about we make the bad things not happen? How about we work with you to make you a better driver, particularly your kids, a better driver as they are learning. People are very, very interested in that. or how do, how about we bring you back to whole? So, so that you, can’t prevent all catastrophes. We can help you and, know, in, and driving, we can help you in looking at your home and finding all the fire hazards and things like that and so forth. but you can’t prevent everything. So, but what we do is that we will ensure.

John Jantsch (06:19.029)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (06:25.282)

Yeah.

Joe Pine (06:43.613)

sure you get back to whole we will ensure that this is not a long lasting devastating trauma in your life. if and many insurance companies are for real, you know, I got cancer, would need insurance, I gave a car accident, I, you know, my total that I’m, it’s a trauma. And one of the things I discovered in my research is that a lot of aspirations actually come from trauma. And trauma tends to be that metamorphosis, where you’re you’re immediately transformed, right? You’re not you’re in your doctor’s office, they

John Jantsch (07:07.623)

Mmm, yes.

Joe Pine (07:13.523)

say, I’ve got bad news, you’ve got cancer. And you don’t hear anything, you don’t hear any other words for the next five, 10 minutes of them talking, because you now identify as a person with cancer, right? And that’s traumatic. So what the doctor needs to do, but not doctors alone, it’s not just about medicine, is to bring you back is to heal you from the cancer, but also to change that identity as someone who has recovered from cancer, or is a person who had cancer in the past.

John Jantsch (07:19.63)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:39.406)

Yeah, it’s interesting. think I’ve seen a movie where they did that exact scene, right? The doctor’s telling him that and then goes on and everything becomes muffled after that. Exactly. Yeah. So I think that’s a well-known example.

Why is this showing up now in your view?

Joe Pine (08:01.715)

Well, it’s so all of the economic offerings have always been around, right? They’re not a new offer. It’s just newly identified and where where they become a predominant part of the economy. And so there’s a number of reasons why transformations now

One of my fundamental reasons is surprisingly, it’s because we make so much money now. We have so much abundance now that we want goods and services to be commoditized. We bought the lowest possible price and the greatest possible convenience in order to spend our hard earned money and our hard earned time on the experiences and the transformations that we value. it’s the time because we make so money that our time actually has so much more worth. If you think about it, right? When you, when you know, you’re, you’re a high school student and you’re making, you know,

12 bucks an hour at a part time job.

You know, skipping that to go hang out with the friends or go to a football game, whatever is not that big a deal, right? But you were making hundreds of thousands of dollars and now you want to, have to go to the grocery store. Well, you could measure that as a measure. I’d like hundreds of dollars just to go to the grocery store, right? At some level of income. our time is much more precious than it was in the past. And so we want those experiences to fill that time with time well spent. And then, and then we increasingly recognize that, experiences change us. mean, they’re the only things that ever change us. We’re all.

John Jantsch (09:20.194)

Mm-hmm.

Joe Pine (09:21.531)

the product of our experiences. so, and so recognizing what are these experiences doing to me? And how might it even become better at the things that I want to spend my time at, whether that’s family relationships, whether that’s golfing, whether you know, and at work as well, a of those coaches we hire for work and so forth, right? All of that matters much more than it did in the past.

John Jantsch (09:45.304)

So talk to me a little bit about customers who are experiencing this. Do you see people actually seeking companies that are going to be more transformative, or do you actually see some resistance as well? Because it’s like, wait a minute, I’m in my lawn mode. I don’t want to metamorphosis.

Joe Pine (10:04.367)

Right, right. There is some resistance. But there’s all, you if you know the hero’s journey, you heard of that, right? There’s this stage, which is the refusal of the call. Right. And it may be, well, I don’t have enough time to do it. And like you said, maybe I don’t, this isn’t the right company for it, right? They may be offering it, but it’s not the right company for me. And so you need to find out who that is. You need to be present when they, when they’re ready to go on, on that adventure and, and, and, and be with them to be their guide.

John Jantsch (10:11.893)

Right, right, sure, sure, of course.

Right, right, right, right.

John Jantsch (10:30.285)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (10:37.134)

And I’m sure that this is going to be one of those, depends on the company or what they’re doing. do you see people, mean, this feels like transformation feels like you, especially in a service means that you have this totally bespoke white glove approach that is different for everyone. But I want to productize transformation. Is that possible?

Joe Pine (10:58.383)

Yes, it is possible. And I’ll tell you what’s going to make it possible. And that’s AI. Right.

John Jantsch (11:02.964)

I was gonna, that’s on the list. Okay.

Joe Pine (11:05.059)

Well, I’m going to take it back. Yes, you use the word productize. I say you can’t commoditize transformations, but you can productize them. So I’m doing that myself. Right. So I just came out with the Transformation Economy, Guiding Customers to Achieve Their Aspirations book. Right. You can hire me to speak. You can hire me to do a workshop. You actually hire me to work with you to create, to transform your business, to help you transform your customers. But I productize it into a book for $32. Right. Why? Because I want to reach a lot of people.

John Jantsch (11:11.213)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:21.368)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (11:32.77)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Pine (11:34.953)

and have them do things even without my involvement. But then also we just came out with the transformation toolkit. We’ll take the ideas and frameworks in there and be able to work on them even without my help. It’s a $495 offering, but it’s a lot cheaper than hiring me personally to be there. And so that’s productization. then again, AI will be particularly unique. I think of transformations as three stages. Diagnosis, who is this customer, where do want to become? Then you design the set of experiences, not

John Jantsch (11:51.308)

Mm-hmm.

Joe Pine (12:04.973)

that monotonically increase, always regress as well as progress, you have to sense and respond to what’s going on. And then you achieve your aspiration, you have to have follow through, which is ensure again, ensure that transformation takes hold that is sustained through time. What a lot of companies do is say, okay, you got it, you lost your 30 pounds, bye, you know, no, no, no, no, no, right, because then they, they go back, right. So that follow through is most important. That’s where AI can help a lot because one of things that turns out that AI is really good at is counseling.

John Jantsch (12:22.188)

Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Pine (12:34.759)

is coaching right and and it’s just really good at that and i mean yes there’s reason a lot of reason to have a human connection and everything and i’m a big believer in human connection but in between you can have ai providing tips and inspiration and counseling as you go in between your your human visits or virtual calls with with a coach a counselor a guide again right i think it’s going be very good at that to customize into your needs at the moment

John Jantsch (12:35.192)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:01.452)

What happens to stuff like pricing models, guarantees, risk sharing? If we’re promising something that’s an outcome for somebody that’s unique to them, what does that do to all the normal kind of models of business?

Joe Pine (13:16.645)

Yeah, well, it does change things. If you promise an outcome, you need to charge for the outcome. Right. So, so that is what you charge with services, you charge for activities with experiences for time, with transformations, you charge for outcomes. And the paradox of course, is that while you want to charge an outcome and the most prevalent way I’ve seen is with a transformation guarantee.

John Jantsch (13:19.075)

Yeah.

Right.

Joe Pine (13:39.291)

that you get some or all of your fees back if you don’t get to achieve your aspiration. But the paradox is that you can’t actually guarantee it because because customers change themselves. Right. You can’t change customers. As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make a drink. But what a guarantee is is is one, it knows that your customer, what I like to say is your aspirant, you know, services have clients, experiences, gas transformations have aspirants that they know your

John Jantsch (13:39.767)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:47.083)

Right,

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

Right, right,

John Jantsch (14:02.786)

Mm-hmm.

Joe Pine (14:09.225)

in it, right? That they know you’re putting your money where your mouth is. They know you’ve got risk in it. And it’s not just a high profit margin thing that you’re doing. But it’s also then a catalytic mechanism that says that, hey, I have to do everything it takes to to transform that customer, or I’m not going to make money, right? Even if you’re only charging for a portion that you that’s all profit that you’re charging for. And so you then start to do things differently, you approach things differently, you have different processes and so forth.

John Jantsch (14:30.422)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joe Pine (14:39.181)

to help ensure that that transformation occurs and then ideally that it sustains through time.

John Jantsch (14:46.51)

So you answered half of what I was going to ask now is, what should leaders measure to know? I mean, first off, have to know, you have to have the signs, right? Yes, transformation is happening to this person or this business. But then you also probably have to have some way to collect data on that, right? I mean, I know it sounds really simple, but a lot of people don’t have that loop.

Joe Pine (14:50.139)

you

Joe Pine (14:57.819)

Right. Yes.

Joe Pine (15:06.032)

Yes.

Joe Pine (15:10.331)

Right. Some guarantees are purely qualitative. Right. It’s like, did we do what we said we do? Did you do? Did you get out of it? You what? Right.

John Jantsch (15:16.066)

Right, right, right. Right.

Joe Pine (15:18.439)

Others are quantitative. Some of them are, but are sort of very easy to measure. For example, I know, you know, Texas State Technical College in Waco, Texas offers a tuition guarantee. If you graduate and don’t get a job within four months or six months, you’re you get your tuition back. Very easy. One thing we got to measure. Others, it’s like, well, to what extent did I did I lower my costs or did I increase my market cap? If you’re a B2B, to what extent have I improved my handicap?

John Jantsch (15:37.774)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:46.124)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joe Pine (15:48.573)

that’s easy to measure, but my tennis game, there’s no measurement for tennis, you know, how much you’ve improved. So it can be very difficult in those situations.

John Jantsch (15:52.706)

Yeah.

All right, so I’m going to come back to marketing. know you’re trying to lead me away from it, but I’m coming back to I’m coming back to messaging. So if if before I’ve been saying, here’s what you’re buying, and now I’m going to say, here’s what you’re going to become. Don’t I need another message?

Joe Pine (16:01.121)

Hahaha

Joe Pine (16:11.324)

Right.

Yes. I mean, yes, you do need a mother message. You need to make sure this is true in all cases, but especially to in transformations, you need to make sure that your marketing doesn’t get ahead of the actuality, right? Something we talked about in our book on authenticity. cause because where we say, basically, not basically we say advertising is a phoniness generating machine. Cause you can’t help but, but exaggerate what your, what your offering really is when you advertise. But in terms of the, of the promotion of it, you need to make it sort of clear.

John Jantsch (16:15.278)

Okay.

John Jantsch (16:24.142)

Yes.

John Jantsch (16:36.558)

Sure. Yeah. Yep.

Joe Pine (16:43.523)

what they are getting out of it. And they say, you know, all branding is a promise, right? So it’s a promise of an outcome. So yes, make that promise. Be sure you can first operationally do it.

but make that promise. The guarantee makes it then easy to be able to sell that promise. Another marketing thing I’ll give you, John, as I got a little box in there on what I’m now calling after Bob Rogers, a friend that gave the term to me, invitational transformations that we can do with marketing to create an invitational transformation. the biggest way to see it is what I call marketing experiences. Think about things like the, the Guinness storehouse in Dublin, the Heideken experience in Amsterdam.

John Jantsch (16:58.37)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:13.422)

Hmm.

John Jantsch (17:24.088)

Yeah, yes.

Joe Pine (17:24.905)

the Johnny Walker Princess Street experience in in Edinburgh and each of those are marketing experience. There is actually I can talk about the world of Coca-Cola to get into non-alcoholic drinks but yeah no it’s all there’s Ferrari World you know Volkswagen, Jadu Stad, there’s there’s all tons of these. But need to be there’s the Tomahawk Experience Center for Case Construction Company in Wisconsin.

John Jantsch (17:30.36)

Seems to be theme there, Joe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Harley probably has something. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Pine (17:49.841)

and, and on the consumer side, all those ones I mentioned are admission fees experiences. They’re actually, turn marketing from a cost center into a profit center because they get, they get customers to pay them to sell to them, to get them to drink more Guinness or Heineken or whiskey or whatever it might be. Right.

John Jantsch (17:58.808)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (18:05.058)

Buy the hat, yeah.

Joe Pine (18:07.036)

But also what Bob Rogers who designed Guinness Storehouse, Heineken Experience and Johnny Walker’s Princess Tree and World of Coca-Cola, think at BRC Imagination Arts. He told me he likes to think of them as invitational transformations. I’m inviting you to come in and immerse yourselves in my brand. Well, first my category, whether it’s whiskey or beer or what. I immerse myself in my cat, yourself in my category, and then in my brand. And I’m going to show you what a wonderful category it is. I’m going show you how wonderful we are as a brand. I’m going to let

you experience my products, right with tasting and so forth, or at case it’s driving all the earth moving equipment. And knowing that the more if you get customers to experience your product, chances they buy it go up. But if they buy it, then they may begin to identify, know, I didn’t like whiskey before, but but I like whiskey. I am a whiskey drinker. Right? That’s a transformation. When you say I am X, I am a whiskey drinker, right? That’s a transformation. They may go further and say, I’m a Johnny

John Jantsch (18:40.888)

Mm-hmm

John Jantsch (19:01.082)

Yes.

Joe Pine (19:06.89)

walker whiskey drinker, right? Now you identify with the brand. And that’s big. That’s where you can become what my friend Eddie, you can call super consumers that that don’t just buy more from you, they tell everybody about it, and they convert other people into consumers. And if you create a great experience, all of that is as possible. Right, exactly. And that’s so that’s what marketing should be thinking about, not a cost center, a profit center by creating experiences where people can identify with your brand.

John Jantsch (19:16.75)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (19:26.284)

Yeah, they get the tattoo, right?

John Jantsch (19:37.006)

All right. So if you’re a small business and you want to take the first step this week, where do get started? What’s a simple, I know you have an audit process, think three, I think it’s three questions. What’s something that they could run on? I thought it was, it was like something about like, what’s the aspiration or what’s the transformation they’re seeking? I thought I read that somewhere, but any rate, how would somebody look into their business and say, what, how can we think about our current offering?

Joe Pine (19:49.736)

I wonder what those three questions are, I’m sorry.

Joe Pine (20:00.978)

Right.

Joe Pine (20:04.678)

Right. So one, think of your current offering as a means to an end and figure out what that end is. Right. So it can be a very generic. I like to think of it as from two statements from where to what you’re from, what to what B2B from who to who B2C what, who are your customers and what do they aspire to become? You get a very generic statement. You need to recognize when you get down to the individual aspirant, that there may be differences that you have to take into account.

John Jantsch (20:08.77)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:29.208)

Yeah.

Joe Pine (20:30.184)

but you know a fitness center generically we we we we transform people from flabby to fit right now

John Jantsch (20:36.685)

Mm-hmm.

Joe Pine (20:39.016)

think about what you do today, how fit does it actually make them? And how do you ensure that they make their fitness goal? What are their fitness aspiration on an individual basis and so forth? With with healthcare, it might be from sick to well, right? Okay, well, that can differ for everybody and what they want. But generally, you know, it’s not about treating the sickness, it’s about becoming what having well being, right? And how do you create that well being beyond the again, the medical things that you do? If it’s a financial, you’re a financial

advisor or an accountant, right? Recognize that that they’re not buying your services because they want your services. It’s because they want to have a better business and accounting helps them have a better business. Or if you’re a B2C financial advisor, it’s not about the money. It’s a means to an end. It’s about they want to retire well, they want to create a college fund, they want to build a second home in Florida or Arizona or whatever. And so one of the only example in the book that I

John Jantsch (21:19.31)

Mm-hmm.

Joe Pine (21:39.09)

talk about like five times is a company based here in Minnesota, where I live, called Simpliny that provides a transformation platform to wealth advisors.

John Jantsch (21:48.674)

Hmph. Hmph.

Joe Pine (21:49.916)

So the fake and it’s focused on the life and legacy. love that term, the life and legacy of what the, what the end client wants as opposed to just the money and provides a wonderful system for them. Be able to do that. They call it, what do they call it? it’s advice at the, at the speed of conversation because you, you say, well, I’m thinking about this and instantly your plan changes and say, well, this is what it be if you wanted to do that. Right. This increases your chances of having the money you want to retirement and leaving the legacy that you want.

John Jantsch (21:59.8)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (22:10.723)

Mm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Joe Pine (22:19.86)

when you die or it decreases it by this much. Can I live with that that much? Yeah, I can live with that chance. So let’s go.

John Jantsch (22:27.054)

One of the things that I think is going to be a side effect from people reading your book is if somebody has already decided, yes, I want to do this from two, I think we do this from two, they’re probably going to also then start saying, what’s going to have to happen to make sure that we’re doing that? We need a better onboarding. We need a better check-in system. We need better follow through. So we start improving every bit of the business, don’t

Joe Pine (22:46.172)

Right.

Joe Pine (22:52.648)

Yes, and that’s where that charging for outcomes becomes that Cadillac mechanism. Now, how do we go about doing this and ensuring that they get the aspirations achieved that they want? You need to think also about the customizing aspect of that. All of this relates to my first book on mass customization, about efficiently serving customers uniquely. So you can think about, there transformation platforms out there that I can use? And there are many. I know many in education, for example, Echo360. These are all mentioned in the book.

John Jantsch (22:57.356)

Yeah.

Joe Pine (23:22.602)

in coaching, there’s better up, which is a great transformation platform.

and others that you can use. And how do I modularize my offerings so that I can do different things at different times based on how I’m sensing responding to what my client is feeling right now, what they’re going through right now, where they are on that transformation journey. so design that journey. I have one in the book modeled after the hero’s journey that takes you through all the steps that you need to do. And in particular, have the diagnosis, have the set of experiences, have the follow through. Don’t think you’re

John Jantsch (23:47.256)

Mm-hmm.

Joe Pine (23:56.346)

done once they say I’ve changed right you know how they got to sustain that change

John Jantsch (23:58.823)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome. Well, Joe, it was great having you back. Spending a few minutes with you. Where do you want to invite people to connect with you or find out more about the transformation economy and ways that they can apply it?

Joe Pine (24:12.41)

You can always connect with me on LinkedIn at Joe Pine. And then our website is strategic horizons with an S strategic horizons.com. We actually have a page dedicated called slash integration about how you can take these ideas and integrate them into your business and includes all the different offerings we have, including the toolkit and one-on-one coaching and then speeches and workshops and whatnot.

John Jantsch (24:37.418)

Awesome. Again, great visiting with you. Another amazing work and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Joe Pine (24:44.985)

I appreciate that. I’d love to.

AI Is a Survival Skill for Consultants

AI Is a Survival Skill for Consultants written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Episode Overview

John Jantsch welcomes Steve Cunningham, former agency owner, startup founder, and creator of the book summary platform ReadItForMe. Steve shares how generative AI nearly wiped out his business and forced a complete reinvention of how he approaches consulting and knowledge work.The conversation explores the rise of the AI-native full-stack consultant, the importance of context engineering, why deliverables must be built for both humans and AI, and how agencies must adopt factory-style workflows to survive. This episode is essential listening for consultants, agencies, and service professionals navigating rapid AI-driven change.

Guest Bio

Steve Cunningham is a former agency owner, startup founder, and AI-native business strategist. He built the successful book summary platform ReadItForMe, backed by a billionaire investor, and read a book a day for nearly ten years.

After generative AI disrupted his business model, Steve pivoted to helping consultants, agencies, and service professionals redesign how work gets done with AI. He is the founder of Simple and the author of The AI-Native Full-Stack Consultant.

Key Takeaways

AI replaced entire categories of work: Tasks that once took hours can now be completed in minutes or seconds.
AI-native is not the same as using AI tools: AI-native businesses redesign workflows, systems, and deliverables around AI.
The full-stack consultant is emerging: With AI handling execution, consultants can deliver value across marketing, sales, operations, and strategy.
Context engineering is the real advantage: High-quality, reusable context enables AI to perform at expert levels.
Knowledge work is becoming a factory: Repeatable workflows, quality control, and standardized processes are now essential.
Deliverables must serve humans and AI: HTML and structured formats outperform PowerPoint and Word in an AI-driven world.
The cost of variations is nearly zero: Infinite testing and personalization are now practical and affordable.

Catch the full episode

Great Moments from the Episode

00:01 – 02:34: How AI nearly destroyed ReadItForMe
03:18 – 05:41: Defining the AI-native full-stack consultant
06:24 – 07:52: Why consultants must go beyond marketing silos
07:52 – 10:05: Context engineering explained
10:57 – 11:16: Hyper-personalization at scale
11:36 – 12:36: Why betting on one AI platform is risky
14:18 – 15:43: The decline of PowerPoint and Word
17:43 – 19:56: Guardrails, QA, and the factory mindset
19:26 – 20:14: The future of agencies and consulting

Memorable Quotes

“AI doesn’t need more prompts — it needs better context.”

“If you don’t turn your marketing agency into a factory by 2026, you’ll be out of business.”

“We need to build deliverables for humans and AI, not just humans.”

Resources & Links

Free BlackBelt AI Training (Exclusive for Listeners):
https://roiassociation.ai
Book: The AI-Native Full-Stack Consultant

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.371)

Welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. And my guest today is Steve Cunningham. He’s a former agency owner, startup founder, and now AI native business strategist. He built a successful book summary platform called ReadIt.ForMe, backed by billionaire investor, read a book a day for 10 years. I feel like I do that sometimes. But when AI disrupted his industry, it nearly wiped him out. So now he coaches.

Steve (00:01.71)

I’m to you to sign up for the presentation. I’m ask you to for the I’m going ask to up for I’m going ask sign up for I’m you to I’m to ask you to I’m going you to sign up presentation. I’m going to sign the presentation. I’m going you to going I’m

John Jantsch (00:30.425)

solo consultants, agency owners, and service professionals to make more money faster and easier by becoming AI native through his company, Simple and his brand new book, the AI native full stack consultant. So Steve, welcome back to the show. I say welcome back. think this is your first time actually on the show, but, you and I tried to record and I was like in a hurricane and it didn’t work out. so I’m glad you were able to come back.

Steve (00:31.822)

Thanks for having me, John.

Steve (00:56.622)

Good to be back for the first time.

John Jantsch (00:58.683)

So, I mentioned the AI destroyed your business. You want to talk a little bit about it or tell that story as I’m sure you have a number of times.

Steve (01:08.75)

Yeah. So read it for me was a business that I hoped would last the rest of my life. I loved that business. I like to joke if I could get in the time machine, travel back to 2022 and destroy all the AI, I would do it. That’s how much I love that business. I got to read books from my favorite business authors like yourself. I live here in San Antonio, Texas by the Riverwalk. I would literally go outside.

John Jantsch (01:24.283)

Ha ha ha.

Steve (01:37.134)

I would take my, I would read on the phone. So I read Kindle on the phone and that was my job. Uh, so I loved it. And so when Chad GPT came out, um, you know, this is a content business, right? So it would take me about eight hours to read a book and summarize it, take notes and do all the, all the stuff from beginning to end. And when I realized that you could get a passable book summary, which is by asking for it and maybe, then with some good prompting.

get a finished product in much less way less time than it would take for me to read and summarize the book. I knew that we were in trouble. so it didn’t happen overnight. We still have people reaching out wondering, can they bring Rita for me into their business? I, two and a half, three years later, it baffles me that people still have not figured out that they don’t need us anymore for that. But

John Jantsch (02:31.579)

you

Steve (02:34.478)

Yeah. So the revenue went down, not overnight, slowly but surely. And so we realized that we had to do something about that and saw the writing on the wall transformed our operations with AI. Then lots of folks wanted to know how we were doing it and started showing them. And here we are two and a half years later and we’re fully AI native and doing lots of fun and exciting things.

John Jantsch (03:01.231)

So I suspect, maybe I’m wrong, maybe I’m naive, but that most marketers today are consultants have figured out, know, yeah, I need to use this AI thing. You use the term AI native full stack consultant. How does that differ from someone who say just uses it in their workflows?

Steve (03:18.798)

Well, one of the things that has happened in the last few months is that the easiest way to put it is the AI has gotten really good. So there was this, we were on a short timeline for the podcast. We don’t have time to dive into it deep, but there were studies done through OpenAI. So take that with a grain of salt, but it’s called the GDPVAL. And what they did was they took…

bunch of subject matter experts. got a bucket of tasks across most knowledge work. And they said, give us your best blank. And there would be a task. And so they would do it. And then they would have the AI do the exact same task. And then they would give it to another subject matter expert. And they would say, which one of these is better? And so 2024, wins or ties by the AI was like a 10%. Now it’s a caveat that the AI has all of the context it needs in order to do

the job. And most people don’t get anywhere close to giving the AI all the best, all the contacts they need. So 10 % like people would say, yeah, it’s not a 10%. Well, it’s probably not a 10 % because you didn’t give it all the context. anyways, move forward into 2025, middle of 2025, we’re approaching 50 % wins or ties by the AI. So we’re getting close. We call that the AI tipping point. As of a couple of months ago, the wins and ties by AI were

John Jantsch (04:17.56)

Yeah, right,

Steve (04:42.414)

70 % and since then you can feel if you’re using AI, this is getting better and better and better. So what we mean by full stack consultant is if you understand what good looks like across any subject matter expert domain, you can get pretty close to doing an incredible job for your clients in all functional areas of a business. So a marketing agency can do

sales enablement, but they can also do some CFO work. They can do some strategy work. And that is what we mean by the full stack consultant. And the idea is that if you get very good at some new skills, which are not obvious to most people, like how to produce a really good, robust context library for your clients, you and the company can do amazing work. It can be done.

John Jantsch (05:15.385)

Mm-hmm.

Steve (05:41.166)

incredibly quickly and we’re learning more and more every day about what that looks like. So today, this morning, I did about, and this sounds ridiculous when you hear it from the outside and I understand that it sounds ridiculous, but I did about, in about two hours with 30 minutes of my work and an hour and half of just waiting around for the AI to finish its work, about 260 hours of design, interface work, copywriting.

and development. I don’t do any of those things in the past life. I have no skills in those things, but I know what to ask for. I know what I want and I know what good looks like and now I can get it. So it’s an amazing time that we live in.

John Jantsch (06:14.232)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

John Jantsch (06:24.731)

I want to go back to a point you made there because, I have jokingly, but seriously said, you know, marketing is everything. And what I really meant by that was in a lot of small businesses, I would go into, there were a lot of things I had to fix that weren’t under the, you know, the heading of marketing a lot of times, because if marketing was going to work or we were going to grow the business, I had to get involved in this area over here. Sales was a typical one. Customer service is another one that, know, that you don’t always hire a marketing agency for.

But I would get into it out of necessity. And I think what you’re really pointing to is a great point, this idea of, you go into a business, it’s not just a matter of offering a suite of like, what do you need? It’s more like I can be more effective at doing my job that you hired me for if I can actually easily fix an area over here that I may not have true expertise in, or I couldn’t spend the time because I wasn’t being paid to fix their P &L, for example.

so I think that’s a great point. Let me back up again, because I I circled, I wanted the word context. that, let’s spend a little time talking about that. Cause I think AI has gotten better, but I also think prompters are getting better. and we’re realizing, you know, we get better output with, context. how do you give a, how, how in your view is probably a really long answer. How in your view, do you give AI the proper context?

Steve (07:52.408)

So when most people talk about context and there’s a term called context engineering, they’re mostly talking about it in the terms of like a single task that’s going on. What we mean by context engineering is how does the AI know everything about your business? that whenever you pull up a task to do that you actually, the AI can, it’s really hard to explain without getting into the weeds, but here’s my best shot.

John Jantsch (07:58.512)

Mm-hmm.

Steve (08:22.668)

So imagine that you have like the world’s best employee on every single task that could be done in your business, but they have amnesia. Every single time you give them a new task, they know nothing. So you have to train them. And that sounds like a really painful thing to have to do. But if you build a context library and only has to be done once to start, you can train that, you can give that AI like,

10 years of training in about 10 seconds. So it forgets all the time, but it learns like years in seconds. So all you gotta do, like this is how I boot up my instance of how I’m AI in my world as the CEO of our company. I onboarded the AI, I go look at the, I literally create an onboarding file. I say, go look at the onboarding file and get yourself onboarded. And 10 seconds later, it knows exactly like,

John Jantsch (08:54.629)

Mm-hmm.

Steve (09:20.418)

from a meta perspective, how we’re going to do our work today. And I’ll say, go look at that folder and let’s do this task, like redesign our interface for this page in our system. And knows exactly how I like to work. It knows exactly how I want design options. And as a marketer, you’ll appreciate this. you can go in and you’re doing, let’s say you’re doing ad variations. You go and ask for

You don’t even have to be that specific. If it knows everything about your business, you just say, give me five ad variations on this one topic or this one offer we’re making. Sends it back. You look at it. You’re like, like that one the most. And I’ve had the AI give me like the rationale for like, is scored it and ranked it. Then I could give me five more variations on that one. And then five more on that one. And one of the things that’s not obvious to people is that the cost of variations is almost zero.

John Jantsch (10:05.177)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (10:10.768)

Right.

Steve (10:17.58)

So you can ask for an infinite number of variations of.

John Jantsch (10:17.594)

Yeah.

Yeah, I do that with subject lines for emails. mean, same thing. It’s like, kind of like the idea of this one. Iterate on that 10 more times. Yeah.

Steve (10:27.31)

Yeah, but you can do it for really big things too. So it’s not just like a single subject. You can do it for an entire interface, like an entire set of code. so like, because it works so fast and the cost of its work is so low, it transforms the way you approach the work. so customizing campaigns down to the individual level, not a problem anymore.

John Jantsch (10:31.193)

Yeah, yeah. Right.

Mm-hmm.

Steve (10:57.25)

Like I can find your LinkedIn profile, can scrape it and I can send you like an entire landing page that’s speaking directly to you. And it cost me a penny to do. And so there are things that we can do that were quite literally impossible before that now makes sense.

John Jantsch (11:16.543)

This might be good time to talk platforms and technologies a little bit. Are you agnostic or have you really gone all in and maybe it’s so complex that you can’t really say it in one sentence, but is like, are you a Gemini person? Are you a Chad’s EBT person or have you really building your own stuff?

Steve (11:36.942)

We’re definitely not building our own stuff. We have a very particular point of view, which is we’re serving companies and companies will eventually choose their LLM of choice. And that’s what they’re going to do all of their work on. So we are, we’re not hitching our wagon to any one LLM. We also have the point of view that for the most part, most AI rappers go away. So an organization is going to build their own software.

John Jantsch (12:01.679)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steve (12:06.894)

So that’s our long-term bet. And so we’re just using whatever one is most productive. I personally have the max subscription on Claude, OpenAI and Gemini. I’m mostly using Claude right now because Claude Cowork and Claude Code just came out. And so if you listen to this like a month later, maybe I’m on something else by then, but Claude Cowork has been that tool alone.

John Jantsch (12:28.558)

You

Steve (12:33.548)

has transformed our operations in two weeks. Like we literally operate day to day differently now because of that tool. So, whatever one’s working the best when the next time we talk is the one we’ll be on then.

John Jantsch (12:36.346)

Yes.

John Jantsch (12:45.349)

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, I contended for a long time that just what you said, it’s, it’s going to be plumbing. It’s not going to be, Oh, I use this tool or that too. It’s going to be, no, this already works with what I use. And I really feel like, doesn’t that give Microsoft and Google because of their installed user base? mean, you know, I fire up Gmail and all of a sudden it’s like, Oh, there’s a new tool. Um, you know, I can opt into, you know, I mean, doesn’t that give them an advantage? And also I think the other thing, the first version of AI tools.

Is there better kind of use them by themselves? Well, now all of sudden we got collaboration built in, which I think was a big missing part. And so it’s like working the way people work already.

Steve (13:27.214)

Yeah, I think the like all other things being equal, Microsoft and Google have the biggest moat around it. However, for the longest time, Chad GPT was the best tool. And now Claude is by far the best tool. so I would have thought that if it was true that Microsoft and Google would be like for sure would win, it would have happened.

John Jantsch (13:34.372)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (13:51.525)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steve (13:52.224)

I know because they had not only they have the user base, they have all the documents and that’s, that’s what the AI needs for context. But as it turns out, the AI does not read and work with the file formats that we all produced over the last 20 years, which was PowerPoints and Word documents and all of those kinds of things. So there’s, there’s going to be a shift around that as well, which I think will loosen.

John Jantsch (14:08.995)

the

Steve (14:18.382)

the moat that they have because we’re not going to be stuck on PowerPoint anymore. Like I, the, in the last couple of weeks, I’ve been on this kick of, and I think this is just true. I will never use keynote or PowerPoint ever again. Um, and I’m not using like another AI tool. just build HTML documents and it does exactly what I want. And I, that’s my presentation style. Um, we do SOPs in our business. Everybody in our company builds HTML.

John Jantsch (14:32.155)

Mm.

Steve (14:46.132)

S O P S because you can just speak into a computer. HTML files open everywhere. And it’s also a good language for the LLMs to understand because it’s way easier to read than, than a PowerPoint. There’s others. If you pay attention to how software engineers are using AI, you’ll have a, you’ll have a glimpse of the future. They’re mostly using file formats that they’re comfortable with and that are, that work well for.

John Jantsch (14:57.147)

yeah.

Steve (15:15.182)

development, like markdown files and things like that. So that’s what you’ll see them suggest. Like you have to use markdown files for these things. And, what our point of view around this, and I think this will just prove to be true is that we need to be building like artifacts or deliverables, whatever you want to call it for humans and AI, not just humans. Like humans only is like PowerPoint, like LLMs hate PowerPoint. I hate word document.

John Jantsch (15:17.722)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (15:43.201)

can’t can’t can’t read them at all.

Steve (15:44.878)

There’s so much code around it, right? So then you have the like markdown files and things that most humans they look at it. Like I can’t, I can’t, a picture is worth a thousand words. It’s a real thing. Like we need to see visuals and workflows and all those things. And so HTML happens to do both of those incredibly well. So whether or not we’re right on that, I don’t know, but for now it’s like transforming the way that we do work because we can now.

build things that both our humans understand, the LLMs understand, and also there’s this magical thing that happens when a non-technical person speaks a website into existence, and just presses a button and it’s live. So it’s also a really good AI adoption tool, because it’s cool, right? Like it’s cool to like, you build something beautiful. So as a marketer, if you have a design system,

Most companies would never spend 30, 40, $50,000 on. You can speak one of those into existence. Like you can do it right now. Then everything that gets designed looks great in your company. And now everybody’s sharing beautifully designed. SOP documents. Like that’s, that’s a weird thing to think about, but it’s like, I like doing it. It looks nice. it explains what I explains my thoughts and my process. And so, yeah, I think, I think this year is going to be.

transformative in how we all do work and I don’t think it’s going to look the same by the end of the year.

John Jantsch (17:17.11)

So, and I know you have an answer for this, but this, I’m guessing listeners are out there going, okay, if I can just speak this stuff into existence, am I going to just start creating stuff without any kind of guardrails and without any human intervention? where’s the, you know, the pushback you’re getting from people that hate AI. So imagine the people that love AI, but don’t want to be embarrassed.

Steve (17:43.31)

What do you mean by guardrails specifically?

John Jantsch (17:46.123)

just, just meaning like, if I can design all these things, who’s going to actually go and make sure that they’re, they’re being done right. That they look good, that they say what they’re supposed to say. Cause you know, some of, particularly some of the image, you know, generates today. I mean, there’s, it’s just like appalling. Some of the things that show up in, in some of those.

Steve (18:06.478)

Well, I think there’s trying to figure out the 32nd way of answering this question. So the way we look at how work is done is by deliverables. you can look at it as a process, you can look at it as tasks, you can look at it as deliverables. But if you look at it as a deliverable, is that that’s when the thing ends. And that’s when the human has to look at it. It’s when the deliverable is done.

John Jantsch (18:18.864)

Right.

Steve (18:31.182)

First of all, should have the AI do a QC process on itself. You can do that. And it actually does a really good job of QCing its own work. So that’s the thing that most people don’t understand. But then once it comes off the press, whatever metaphor you want to use, and a human looks at it and says, are we sending this out? And if you treat it, and this is a language that most knowledge workers don’t like, it’s a factory now. And so you don’t QC every

energy drink can that comes off the line. But you look at some of them, right? And you know that if this one is this one’s off, well, we got to look at the ones that just went out the door because maybe they have a defect as well. So it becomes more of a factory mindset, knowing that if you if you have a good manufacturing process and that this again, like marketing agencies will hate this like, but that is that it but

John Jantsch (19:02.97)

Right.

John Jantsch (19:22.297)

Yeah. Yeah. Even the word factory there, they’re going to cringe at. Right.

Steve (19:26.894)

Like if you do not turn your marketing agency into a factory in 2026, you will be out of business. Like let’s go have a, we’ll do it next year and we’ll see whether or not that’s true. Like you have to, you’ll have to learn good workflows. You need to learn good work instructions. You need to learn good QC process. And so, and once you do, you can start mass producing things that are top notch and

John Jantsch (19:37.403)

Yeah.

Steve (19:56.138)

knowledge work will be turned into a factory. And then what gets layered on top of that is a new skill set, which is not 100 % clear what that is yet, but we will invent new things to do that will just add value on top of that.

John Jantsch (20:14.085)

Fascinating, Steve. Appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Where do you want to invite people to find out more about, I think it’s simpleconsultants.ai and obviously about your book?

Steve (20:26.978)

Yeah, well, if you’re up for it, I would love to give everybody in your audience free access to our BlackBelt training. We’ll create a page specifically for your network. It’ll be roiassociation.ai.

John Jantsch (20:47.931)

Awesome. And we’ll put that in the show notes as well. So that was ROI.association, is that what you said?

Steve (20:54.824)

roiassociation.ai.

John Jantsch (20:56.973)

dot, dot A. Okay. Got it. Awesome. Well, as I said, we’ll put that in the show notes as well. So Steve, again, appreciate you stopping by. This is awesome. And hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Steve (21:11.662)

Absolutely. Thanks, John.

Why Goals Fail and How to Change the Odds

Why Goals Fail and How to Change the Odds written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing

Catch the full episode:

Episode Overview

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, host John Jantsch sits down with award-winning strategy consultant, speaker, and author Kyle Austin Young to explore his decision-making and goal-achievement framework called probability hacking. Kyle explains why traditional goal pursuits rooted in hustle, mindset, and positive thinking fall short and how identifying and solving for potential risks can dramatically shift your odds of success.

Guest Bio

Kyle Austin Young is a strategy consultant, speaker, and writer helping high achievers accomplish meaningful goals through his probability hacking framework. He’s been featured in top publications and is the author of Success Is a Numbers Game: Achieve Bigger Goals by Changing the Odds.

Key Takeaways

Probability over Mindset: Success isn’t just about positivity—it’s about improving your odds.
Probability Hacking Framework: Define goals, identify prerequisites, anticipate what could go wrong, and solve creatively.
Success Diagrams: Visual tools to map out and de-risk goal pathways.
Multiplying Probabilities: Understand true odds by combining variables—not averaging them.
Resilience & Repetition: Trying multiple times can dramatically increase your likelihood of success.
Mindset Shift: Think negative—not to be pessimistic, but to preemptively solve issues.

Notable Moments (Time‑Stamped)

00:01 – Introduction of Kyle Austin Young and today’s topic
00:59 – Odds vs. mindset in goal-setting
04:15 – Kyle’s story of landing a high-stakes job at age 21
07:04 – Breakdown of the success diagram framework
09:19 – Why averaging leads to false confidence
11:57 – Miracle on Ice and the math of multiple attempts
14:32 – Getting started with probability thinking
15:41 – The four paths to success explained
17:47 – Edison and the role of experimentation in resilience
19:54 – Where to find Kyle and his book

Quotes

“What’s going to have to go right? And what could go wrong? That’s where your opportunity to change the odds lives.” — Kyle Austin Young

“Success is really about identifying what could derail you and finding creative ways to make those outcomes less likely.” — Kyle Austin Young

Connect with Kyle Austin Young

Book: Success Is a Numbers Game — available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and Penguin Random House
Website: kyleaustinyoung.com
LinkedIn: Kyle Austin Young

Duct Tape Transcript

John Jantsch (00:01.218)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Kyle Austin Young. He’s an award winning strategy consultant, speaker and writer who helps leaders, entrepreneurs and high achievers accomplish big, meaningful goals. His work centers on a unique decision-making and goal achievement framework that he calls probability hacking, a method designed to analyze and intentionally improve the odds of success in any pursuit. We’re going to talk about his newest book.

Success is a numbers game. Achieve bigger goals by changing the odds. So Kyle, welcome to the show.

Kyle Austin Young (00:37.348)

Thank you for having me. Honored to be here.

John Jantsch (00:39.278)

So I’m going to start with the premise that I’m sure you, I won’t be the first person to ask this question. I think a lot of times when people talk about goals, they think about hustle or mindset or heck even luck. You are saying it’s more about odds. What’s different in that shift?

Kyle Austin Young (00:59.15)

Yeah, let me give you sort of an example. Let’s say that we’ve set the goal of training to run a marathon. Let’s say that’s something that we’ve decided we want to accomplish and we hire a running coach and she says, I can get you ready in time, but you’re gonna have to do three things. I need you to eat, sleep, and train according to some specific regimens that I’m gonna create for you.

John Jantsch (01:02.872)

John Jantsch (01:14.829)

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Austin Young (01:16.334)

So let’s say that we know that one of these prerequisites is we’re to have to train according to some certain parameters. And so we identify some of the things that could go wrong, some of the things that might happen instead of what we want. And maybe we identify bad weather as something that could derail a training regimen. I’m currently preparing for a big wintery snowstorm. Let’s say that we identify injury as a potential risk, or maybe we identify that our kids might have a crisis that could overwhelm our schedule. So the question that I like to ask people is,

tell me how wanting to run a marathon is an antidote to any of those threats to our success. How does wanting to run a marathon change the weather? How does wanting to run a marathon prevent injury? How does wanting to run a marathon keep a crisis from happening in our kids’ lives? Certainly, we’re going to need a measure of commitment and hustle in order to be successful. But ultimately, what we’re going to really need is we need some creative solutions to the things that could keep us from getting what we want.

So I believe that we can understand probabilities similar to the way we’ve traditionally understood matter. It can’t be created or destroyed, but it can be transferred and rearranged. The odds of success, the odds that we want for our goal are currently hiding in our potential bad outcomes. When we identify what those things are and what we can do about them, we can tilt the odds in our favor.

John Jantsch (02:30.488)

So it’s all about quantum physics. Is that what you’re saying? So when you talk about moving matter around, was the first thought I had. Sure.

Kyle Austin Young (02:33.54)

Very little physics in the book. I don’t think I’ve ever taken a physics class.

Kyle Austin Young (02:40.418)

Well, I do think that there’s a lot of truth in the idea that a lot of people want to conjure good odds out of thin air. This idea that maybe I can wish myself into a better position. And I don’t think that’s true. I think that a lot of times when we’re pursuing a goal, we’re encouraged to think positive. Don’t worry about what could go wrong. If it’s meant to happen, it’ll happen. Just focus on the positive. I encourage people to do the exact opposite. I tell people to think negative. I tell people, for everything that has to go right in order for you to get what you want, identify the potential bad outcomes. Identify the things that could happen instead of what you want.

John Jantsch (02:55.8)

Thank

Kyle Austin Young (03:09.464)

and use your creativity to systematically de-risk your goals.

John Jantsch (03:13.826)

So in your bio, and I know in the book itself, you talk a lot about probability hacking. So let’s talk about what that is or how you define

Kyle Austin Young (03:22.916)

Yeah, I define probability hacking as doing exactly what we just did. It starts with getting an idea of what’s going to have to go right and then identifying what could go wrong and then looking for creative solutions. I’ll tell a different example. You know, when I first graduated from college, I wasn’t excited about the entry level positions that I was seeing. I wanted to try for something more ambitious. So I actually applied to become the product development director at a growing health organization. I was 21 years old. If hired, I was going to be managing people in their 50s, 60s, 70s, people with PhDs and master’s degrees.

a crazy thing to do, but I got an interview and I wanted to make the most of it. So even at that time, I did what I essentially do now for a living. I created what I call a success diagram. I only needed to get a job offer at that point. That was the only step left, but I looked at what are the potential bad outcomes that could happen instead of me getting that job offer. And so I identified three. And so I’m giving this example. You kind of had the quantum physics concern because there’s no numbers here. I’m just going to show you how we can do this at a story level. One of the risks I identified was they might not hire me because of how young I looked.

John Jantsch (04:15.054)

Bye.

Kyle Austin Young (04:21.54)

I might walk in and they take one look and say, he can’t lead this team. So one of the very practical things I did to combat that is I just grew a beard. I still have the beard today. It was something that made me look about 10 years older than I was. And I knew that if I could do that, it would maybe take the edge off of that concern a little bit. A second bad outcome that I identified, a potential bad outcome rather, was there might be concerns over my lack of experience, which were valid. I didn’t have a deep resume. I had just graduated from college. So what I did was I couldn’t lie. I wasn’t going to

John Jantsch (04:22.126)

Right.

Kyle Austin Young (04:49.54)

pretend that I had experience I didn’t have, but I wanted to show the quality of my thinking. So I actually typed up a plan for how I was going to turn this department around. It was so thick, I had to have it spiral bound. It was a book. And every person I went to and interviewed with, I gave them a copy of it. And the goal was when they would ask me questions about my past, I would just redirect it to be a conversation about the future. What experience do you have with whatever the case might be, product development? Great question. Here’s my plan for product development. Let’s talk about the vision that I have for this role if I’m given the opportunity.

The third potential bad outcome I identified was maybe they would be concerned that I couldn’t really get along with the existing team because there was just such a big generational gap. So I used a strategy that I’m still using today. It’s worked really well for me. I asked one of the people in the organization if the product development team had read any books recently as a group. She listed a few titles, I think it was three or four, and I went out and read every single one of them. And what that did is it gave me the ability to have conversations with the team that no other applicant could have. I understood their goals, I understood their jargon, I could make inside jokes.

John Jantsch (05:25.538)

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Austin Young (05:48.56)

There was a group interview where it was me and a bunch of people 20, 30 years older than me with a lot more experience trying to decide who was going to ultimately win the opportunity to lead this department. And one of the books that they read was called The Wuffy Factor. I don’t know if you remember that. was a book about how to, you remember the Wuffy? It was about how brands are in social capital. This was close to 15 years ago. And I remember being in that interview and I said, you know, I think this idea that we’re discussing could help us get a lot of Wuffy.

John Jantsch (05:57.934)

Right.

I remember saying that, yeah, yeah.

Kyle Austin Young (06:11.632)

And I remember looking around and these other applicants, their eyes are bugging out of their heads. What on earth did he just say? You know, is he feeling, okay, what does he mean? We’re going to get a lot of wealthy out of this. But the existing team members, they were all laughing and nodding along. They knew exactly what I was talking about. We were reading the same books. So when all was said and done, I got that job. At 21 years old, I became the product development director for a health organization. It dramatically accelerated my career, but it started with this idea of probability hacking. It started with getting clear on what I wanted and getting clear on what was going to have to go right. Then thinking negatively,

identifying the risks to my success and not resorting to desire as an antidote to uncertainty, but instead using my creativity to solve those problems.

John Jantsch (06:49.006)

So you gave very specific details and steps of what you did, but it sounded, it started to sound a bit like a framework, which I know you have in the book. So were those steps that you gave me a part of that framework? Do you want to outline what that framework is?

Kyle Austin Young (07:04.41)

Sure, I encourage people to start by creating what I call a success diagram. A success diagram is you write down what’s the goal, what do I want to accomplish? I do that at the top right of the page. And then to the left, I just try to list out everything that’s gonna have to go right in order for me to get what I want. So it might be run a marathon. And what I call critical points, the prerequisites to my success are eat according to the regimen my coach gives me, sleep according to the regimen she gives me, train according to the regimen she gives me. So now I have the path, I have the destination.

And then for each one of those things that has to go right, I try to identify the potential bad outcomes. These aren’t just things that could go wrong, they’re alternate outcomes to success. Things that would be so significant they would completely derail the goal if any of them were to come true. After I have those mapped out, I try to just assign a level of risk to each of them. Is this a low risk potential bad outcome, a medium risk, a high risk, so they know how to prioritize? And then probability hacking again is using our creativity to try to find solutions to that. If I’m concerned about

you know, inclement weather derailing my training routine, I might need a treadmill indoors or need to find some alternate exercises that can allow me to build my fitness on days when I can’t go for a run. If I’m concerned about scheduling issues, something happening at my kid’s school, then I might want to train first thing in the morning or I might want to buy an extra pair of running shoes to keep in the car so that I can train at a park if I need to, if my day gets derailed.

John Jantsch (08:20.034)

In a lot of ways, what I’m hearing you describe is, I mean, think there are a lot of people that have mapped out the plan to run the marathon. mean, you can buy books, entire books, will tell you exactly what to do on day one, day two. But what you’re saying a lot of people miss is integrating the whole, you know, of life. And I think in a lot of ways, you’re really just asking people to step back and you’re calling it what could go wrong. But what you’re really doing is saying, hey, you have to have a grasp of reality.

Kyle Austin Young (08:31.29)

Sure.

Kyle Austin Young (08:49.764)

I think you do have to have a grasp of reality. I think that when we consider these statistics that are floating around all the time, just how many people fail at their New Year’s resolutions, how this vast majority of mergers and acquisitions fail to create lasting value for shareholders, how many new businesses will ultimately fail in the first few years after their existence, we start to recognize that it’s because we haven’t stopped to consider the things that could go wrong. And I’ll demonstrate that with just a little bit of numbers. Let’s use that marathon example. There’s three things that have to go right. I need to eat, sleep, and train according to a certain regimen.

John Jantsch (08:51.307)

John Jantsch (08:57.139)

Mm-hmm. Right.

John Jantsch (09:13.763)

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Austin Young (09:19.14)

Well, let’s take some imaginary numbers and try to estimate how likely we are to accomplish each of those three things. Maybe we think it’s 70 % across the board. 70 % chance I’ll stick with the diet, 70 % chance I’ll sleep the way I’m supposed to, 70 % chance I’ll train the way I’m supposed to. What a lot of people do is they fall into a trap called averaging. If they feel good about the individual prerequisites, they feel good about the goal as a whole. That’s not actually logically sound, it’s not mathematically sound. What we have to do is multiply those numbers together to find our overall odds of success.

John Jantsch (09:45.261)

Yes.

Kyle Austin Young (09:47.204)

And if we do that, we find that even though we feel really good about each of these things, 70 % across the board, our overall odds of being ready on race day are only 34%. And that I believe explains a lot of the dysfunction in our world. Why are people failing at goals and wondering, how did this not go the way that I expected it to? I felt good about each individual step. Well, you averaged in your head. You didn’t take the time to understand what your overall odds were. And because of that, maybe you didn’t pay as much attention to your opportunity to change your odds as you could have. Maybe you didn’t get that grasp on reality exactly like what you said.

John Jantsch (10:14.926)

Thank

Kyle Austin Young (10:16.27)

and try to the odds in your favor.

John Jantsch (10:18.766)

Is there any, do you ever run the risk or do you find that people might, like if I sat down thought, oh, my odds of actually being prepared on race day is only in the 30 % range, is there any chance that I say, why bother?

Kyle Austin Young (10:32.538)

There could be, but if we’re taking the time to think negative and identify the bad outcomes that are dragging those odds down, then we can use our creativity and see if we can’t change those numbers, at least in how we understand them, to look like something that’s more optimistic. You if we are using our creativity to address the risk of bad weather when we need to train, or address the risk of injury, or address the risk of our schedule being sabotaged, then we can ultimately run the numbers again. And maybe by the time we’re done optimizing this plan,

John Jantsch (10:33.902)

Yeah

Kyle Austin Young (10:59.812)

we end up feeling like it’s 90 % across the board. That’s still not a 90 % chance of success, but I believe it’s in the 70s. It’s a lot better.

John Jantsch (11:05.166)

Yeah. So, so do you find that you have to help people reframe this idea of failure even?

Kyle Austin Young (11:14.426)

Give me an example of what you mean by that.

John Jantsch (11:16.844)

Well, I mean, in some ways you’re, as I listened to you talk about the steps, you’re, you’re, you’re not saying that’s failures of possibility, but that it’s part of the equation. and a lot of people, you know, would have, I think some people would, would struggle with that idea. I, I’m not saying what you’re talking about doesn’t make sense, but just the mindset that a lot of people have that might be hard to overcome.

Kyle Austin Young (11:41.37)

Sure.

Absolutely. Failure is going to be part of the equation. One of the things that I encourage people to consider in the book is the power of multiple attempts. If you’re chasing a goal that’s really unlikely, often one of the most reliable ways to ultimately succeed is to try more than one time. I tell the story of the miracle on ice in the first chapter of the book. I got to interview Jack O’Callaghan who played on that 1980 hockey team that beat the Soviet Union. And a lot of people consider that a miracle. It’s been called the greatest sporting event of the 20th century, I believe, by Sports Illustrated.

John Jantsch (11:57.518)

Right.

Kyle Austin Young (12:14.028)

And as an individual event, it was really miraculous. But when you recognize that over the course of this Olympic rivalry, the United States played the Soviets nine times and won two, that’s not that remarkable. Winning two times out of nine isn’t unheard of. So was it surprising that they won the game they won? Sure. But the odds told us that we would expect them to win some games. And that’s ultimately what they did. And what’s interesting is when I interviewed Jack, he told me that in the locker room before they went out to take the ice for that game,

John Jantsch (12:23.842)

Mm-hmm. Right.

John Jantsch (12:35.18)

Yeah.

Kyle Austin Young (12:42.244)

Coach Herb Brooks gives this speech and there’s a movie about it and the movie has some quotes that are really powerful. What Jack told me is he said he doesn’t remember the exact words that were spoken. But he says he remembers that when he left the locker room, they’re trudging down to take the ice. He says he remembers leaving with the idea that his coach believed if we played them 10 times, they might beat us nine times, but they’re not going to beat us tonight. And so there was an expectation that failure was going to be a part of that, but they had an opportunity for tonight to be the exception. And ultimately it was.

John Jantsch (13:10.446)

I remember vividly watching that in my dorm room in college. does this, like a marathon I would call a long-term goal, particularly for somebody who hasn’t run one, right? They should start early, right? Can this be applied to short-term decisions as well?

Kyle Austin Young (13:14.956)

Amazing. I missed it by a few years, but I’m jealous.

Kyle Austin Young (13:24.666)

Sure. Sure.

Kyle Austin Young (13:33.166)

absolutely. You know, in the context of me trying to get that job, I just did this as I headed into an interview. It was going to all take place in a day. When we have something that needs to go right, one of the best things we can do to help it go right is think about what could go wrong. Ultimately, that’s what’s dragging our probability down. If you think about flipping a coin, let’s say you need it to land on heads, you have a 50 % chance of success. Why? Why don’t you have a 100 % chance of success? Well, because it might land on tails, and there’s a 50 % chance of that happening. Now, I don’t know how to rig a coin to make it…

do what I want it to do. But in life, a lot of times we can rig it or we can re-rig it in our favor. We can try to take the risk out of the bad outcomes, bring those odds over to our side.

John Jantsch (14:11.448)

So if somebody hasn’t thought this way, what’s kind some of the first things you try to help people? And again, I don’t know if you actually consult on this or teach courses on this as well, but what are some of the first things you try to do to get people to start putting this way of thinking? Because I think a lot of times these things are just mindset. So what do you get them to start thinking this way? What are some of the first things?

Kyle Austin Young (14:32.784)

Well, in the book, I tell people that I think there are four paths to success. One of them is some people just get lucky. I tell the story of Norma Jean Doherty. She’s working at an aviation munitions factory in the war, and a photographer comes to take pictures for a military magazine to inspire the troops. He notices Norma Jean, thinks she’s really beautiful, says, can I take some pictures for you for magazines that don’t have anything to do with the military? And she said, sure. She ultimately finds a lot of success as a model and then goes on to star as an actress under the name Marilyn Monroe, has just this enormously successful career.

That is certainly a success story. Is it a success story we should reverse engineer though? If I meet a young woman who’s coming to me for training or coaching rather, can you tell me what I can do to become a successful Hollywood star? Would I say, well, the first thing you need to do is get a job at an aviation munitions factory and hope that someday a military photographer stops by and notices how pretty you are and says, can I take some pictures of you? No, that probably wouldn’t be a very reliable path to success. So some people succeed through luck. They succeed even though the odds are bad, simply because we expect unlikely events to happen sometimes.

Some people succeed, they don’t beat the odds, but they play them. We think about entrepreneurs, there are some really famous examples of people who heard that nine out of 10 businesses fail, and that was actually what inspired them to start 10 businesses or 15 businesses, was the belief that they were going to experience those predicted failures, but they would also experience the predicted successes. Some people succeed because they have advantages, they have areas of tremendous strength in their lives, and so they try to lean into those goals.

John Jantsch (15:41.314)

you

Kyle Austin Young (15:54.084)

That can often be something that’s really wise for us is asking the question, what are some goals that are pretty high probability goals for me right now that might bring bigger accomplishments within reach? One of the goals that I had for years was ultimately getting a book deal and hopefully getting a big advance and being able to publish that to a mass audience with a major publisher. At the time when I set that goal, it wasn’t really realistic for me, but I was able to pursue smaller goals that changed my odds. One of them was writing for major publications.

John Jantsch (16:01.42)

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Austin Young (16:21.04)

As you mentioned, I’ve written for sites like HBR, Fast Company, Psychology Today. But one of my favorite things and one of the reasons I was so excited to have the opportunity to come on is it’s an exciting full circle moment for me. When I first decided that I was going to try to write for some of these respected publications, get my voice out there and ultimately position myself for things like a book deal, the first site that took me was the Duct Tape Marketing Blog. It was in 2015. I remember I was in my grandmother’s house at the time. They were having a garage sale. I was helping out when I got the response. I couldn’t even tell you where I was sitting.

John Jantsch (16:31.63)

You

John Jantsch (16:42.292)

the

Kyle Austin Young (16:49.742)

and it was such an exciting thing. So it’s an honor to be with you here today. So that’s the third path of success is people making the most of areas where they have good odds. The fourth path is probability hacking, doing everything you can to tilt the odds in your favor.

John Jantsch (16:50.286)

you

John Jantsch (17:01.006)

So, you know, I was going to ask you about resilience. And then you kind of threw in that story about the entrepreneurs starting 10 businesses, but what, what connection do you think with the framework and just the whole mindset of resilience? What does it play?

Kyle Austin Young (17:17.774)

Well, it’s incredibly important if you’re going to especially be pursuing the path of repeated attempts. In the book, I tell the story of Thomas Edison. He’s in a race to try to get valuable patents surrounding the incandescent lamp. If he can get them, it’ll be something that’s transformational for his career. And what this race came down to is he and these other people were all trying to find a practical filament. They needed something that could glow hot enough to emit light without catching on fire and without snuffing out really quickly to the point where it wasn’t worth it. What Edison did that was different than these other people…

John Jantsch (17:23.0)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:29.709)

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Austin Young (17:47.376)

is he actually experimented with 6,000 different plant materials to find the one that worked best. He didn’t try to divine the right answer. He didn’t try to guess the right answer. The answer turned out to be, in his context, carbonized bamboo. And I don’t know about you. That would not have been my first guess. If you said, what are we going to use as a filament? I would have said, I bet it’s carbonized bamboo. That’s not where I would have started. It’s not where he started either. It took 6,000 attempts. But ultimately, he had a clear definition of success. He had a stopwatch, so to speak. And he was able to run more experiments than anyone else. And because of that,

John Jantsch (17:54.144)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (18:04.718)

the

Kyle Austin Young (18:15.364)

he found these unlikely answers. so resilience is a big part of that. Some of it comes from, we need to be confident that there is going to be a best answer out there. And in his case, it wasn’t, you know, it was comparative. He could be confident that one option out of the 6,000 would be the best out of the 6,000. And he liked his chance of creating a great product with a wider net when it came to ultimately trying to find the best filament than he did with somebody who’s only trying two or three things.

John Jantsch (18:27.982)

Thanks.

John Jantsch (18:41.526)

Yeah, and there’s obviously, I don’t know that it’s all true, but you hear these stories that people would ask him, gosh, aren’t you tired of failing so much? He said, no, I just have one more thing out of the way that I know is not the answer.

Kyle Austin Young (18:55.116)

He has a quote attributed to him that’s, to have a great idea, have a lot of them. And I think it’s that exact same mentality. It’s not about being the smartest person in the room necessarily. A lot of times it’s being the most generative. It’s being the person who’s the most prolific and who ultimately uncovers that unlikely good idea.

John Jantsch (18:58.936)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:12.396)

Yeah. And, and, you know, there’s, there’s certainly a mentality out there. People want to, you know, take the easy path, get rich quick, you know, be famous, all the things that, people aspire to. And I don’t, you know, the, people that really get there, you know, they just show up and do the work every day for a long time. Sometimes.

Kyle Austin Young (19:29.614)

Well, it’s one of the dangers of reverse engineering, like I mentioned, you know, the Marilyn Monroe story, we kind of chuckle at that, but I think we’re doing similar things in our daily lives. We’ll find somebody who started a successful organization and turns out he drives a blue convertible. So I should buy a blue convertible because clearly that’s got to be playing a role in his success. What if he just got lucky? I’m not saying that they did, but we need to be really careful about what we reverse engineer because just because someone is seeing good results doesn’t mean that they got there through good decisions.

John Jantsch (19:31.874)

Yeah, yeah.

Right? Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:46.924)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (19:54.646)

Yeah. Well, and I think a lot of times we miss the 10 years before, before they blew up, right? Yeah, exactly. Well, Kyle, I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there someplace you’d invite people to find out more about your work and to perhaps pick up success is a numbers game.

Kyle Austin Young (19:58.778)

Sure, yeah, that kind of quote that most overnight successes are 20 years in the making, sure.

Kyle Austin Young (20:14.0)

You can get a copy of the book pretty much anywhere, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, directly on the Penguin Random House website. Be honored if you did that. If you want to connect with me personally, I think we’ll probably put my website in the show notes, just kyleaustinyoung.com. But what I’d prefer you do, honestly, this was something that was just kind of an unexpected blessing of this journey, is I heard someone who was encouraging people to find them on LinkedIn, and I thought, that’s a strange thing to do. I’ll throw that idea out too. And that was many interviews ago, but it’s turned into one of just the best parts of this, is pretty much every day I wake up and someone has

John Jantsch (20:25.134)

Mm-hmm.

Kyle Austin Young (20:43.118)

sent me a message saying, I heard you here, I heard you there, can I ask you a question? It’s led to some really engaging conversations that I’ve really enjoyed, some fun opportunities for collaboration for me. So feel free to find me, Kyle Austin Young on LinkedIn. I’d love to hear from you.

John Jantsch (20:45.1)

Okay.

John Jantsch (20:56.618)

Awesome. Well, again, appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we’ll maybe we’ll run into one of these days out there on the road.

Kyle Austin Young (21:02.16)

That’d be great. Thanks.