John Jantsch (00:01): Today’s episode is brought to you in part by success story, hosted by Scott D Clary and brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. Success story is one of the most successful, useful podcasts in the world. They feature Q and A sessions with successful business leaders, keynote presentations, and conversations on sales market, business, startups and entrepreneurship. A recent episode had Terry Jones, the CEO of Travelocity and the chairman of, of kayak.com. Talking all about disrupting existing industries with technologies so much for us to, to think about and learn in that episode. So let’s into the success story podcast, wherever you get your podcast.

John Jantsch (00:55): Hello, welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. I thought I would do, uh, kind of a interesting show. Well, hopefully you find it interesting. I’m gonna do a solo show. I’m gonna recap some of what I thought were my, my favorite conversations in podcasts and kind of high spot them with some key takeaways for the course of 2021, so that you can get in there and get ready for some news shows in 2022, that we are going to, in fact, we’re fast working on as we speak. So, you know, I do, uh, two shows a a week. So that’s about a hundred interviews. Obviously I sprinkle in a few of my solo shows. So picking the top 10 can be a D difficult, uh, chore. I would say there were two factors that I put into deciding the top ten one is just downloads.

John Jantsch (01:50): I mean, people listened to were more interested in shared certain episodes. So that’s a good, good indicator that that was, uh, a decent show, but also I, you know, I get to vote and so I’m gonna talk about some of the conversa and people that, that I really enjoyed, uh, speaking with. So maybe I’ll do the 10, like count down right. 10 to, to one and keep you in suspense. All right. So number one was a DBB. He’s the author of the one page marketing plan. Get new customers, make more money and stand out from a crowd. This is a crazy, pretty simple concept that has sold hundreds and hundreds of thousands of copies for 10 years. It’s just, you know, keeps plugging. Alan keeps plugging away at this simple topic. And, you know, I had to write seven books in that, in that time that Alan wrote one, I’d say the biggest takeaway from this is it’s like what not to do as much as what to do.

John Jantsch (02:48): So to build a successful business, you need to stop doing random acts of marketing and start following a plan for business growth. That sounds a little like strategy before tactics, right? The problem with marketing plan still today’s, you know, people have 30 page documents that are very time consuming and difficult to create. And very frankly, it never gets done or certainly never gets used or rarely gets used. Uh, the one minute or one minute, the one page, uh, marketing plan is really all about simplifying your marketing implementation in ways that that allow you to create a plan that you follow, that you use simple and fast. All right, that’s number 10. We’ll have links to these individual shows in the show notes. So if you wanna listen, go back and listen to any of these. You’ll be able to find them all in one place.

John Jantsch (03:39): All right, spoke with trip linear. We talked about living or reaching your potential by living dangerously. His book was called. This book will make you dangerous. So kind of an interesting title, right? I think it, I think the thing that probably, again, the takeaway trip spends thousands of hours a year coaching, primarily men all around the world on how not to sleep through life, how to see opportunities instead of walls. We spent most of our time talking about mindset and, and really how to challenge your fears, align your life with meaning and find clarity and direction in your life. Not a bad thing to go back and listen to if you’re just starting the year out. All right. Number eight, Sophia, Godkin the simple truth about happiness. So Sophia is a health psychologist. Happy. I remember that being as part of her, her title, and she’s written a book called the five minute gratitude journal, give thanks, practice positivity and fine joy.

John Jantsch (04:48): You know, this idea of gratitude is one that just won’t go away. people keep talking about it. People keep writing books about it. And maybe that there’s something to it. One of the things that I, I, I probably, if you go back and list the episode, I probably sounded surprised at how well this book was selling. I mean, it was essentially a very, very simple book, five minutes of gratitude journaling. And it was so, so had at the time we did the interview, she sold hundreds of thousands of this. So she’s really tapped into, I think, not only the topic, but maybe the way people wanted to consume the topic itself. You know, so many people are going through a lot of stress, not really living in a, what they would call a harmonious harmonious state today. And I think that to this book tries to give you the tools, resources, and mental mindset.

John Jantsch (05:38): There’s that word again, to decide to be happy. I know that sounds of simplistic, but there’s something to it because hundreds of thousands of people have gravitated towards it. All right. Number seven, Jackie Lieberman, making brands more human she’s. Uh, Jackie is worked in the largest of companies, the smallest of companies currently the founder of her own small company called brand crude. I think this idea of being more human is something that, that really attracted me. I think, I think it’s everybody. I think we’re all in a place right now where we’re craving that brands that have a conscious, a point of view, a soul, a personality. And that’s really what we talked about. The, the, the work that she does with her clients and the ways in which she’s helped, many brands become more human. So you can check that show out. Number six, Jeffrey Shaw, making your self-employed business sustainably successful, no surprise.

John Jantsch (06:35): Jeffrey wrote a book called the self life business and personal development strategies that create sustainable success. You’re probably seeing the theme here. personal development, happiness mindset, or a lot of my favorite shows. I mean, being, self-employed owning your own business. I, it’s not like having a job. I mean, it’s a choice. Think for, hopefully it’s a choice for you. But I think that one of the things that people that do this for any amount of time realize is that you have to grow personally while building your business. You have to develop yourself, you have to raise the bar. If you’re gonna achieve any level of success that’s fulfilling. And I think that, that, it’s not just, again, it’s not just business books, business strategies. I mean, personal development is always going to be something that that’s important. This holistic approach. I wrote a book as, as many of, you know, called the self relied entrepreneur.

John Jantsch (07:29): And that was really in a lot of ways, my attempt to kind of Chronicle some of the things at least that I’ve observed and learned along the way. And now a word from our sponsor it’s official 2022 electric cars are mainstream. I have more computing power in my pocket than it took to get a Apollo to the moon. And I just ordered a chocolate milkshake to my doorstep. In the time I’ve been reading this message with unprecedented access and speeds to products, it’s easy to see why businesses struggle to connect with the complex customers of, to day with new technology, dedicated to helping your marketing team scale and simplify HubSpots on a mission to help businesses intelligently connect with customers everywhere, intuitive visual workflows and bot builders help you create scalable automated campaigns across email, social media, web, and chat. So your customer hear your messages loud and clear an automated mobile optimization adapts your content from multiple device types.

John Jantsch (08:27): So you can reach your customers wherever they are. Oh, look, my milkshake just arrived. Unravel complexity scale smartly, and learn more about how you can transform your customer’s experience. A HubSpot CRM platform@hubspot.com. All right. Number five, Ryan Eng, England, how to attract the right talent. Boy, a lot of small business owners, certainly in the, in certain industries will tell me the greatest challenge of 2021 for them was hiring people, finding people to do, uh, the jobs they needed them to do. A lot of took different paths. A lot of people decided they didn’t wanna work in certain industries anymore. A lot of people just decided they wanted to reevaluate what it is they did for a career. Ryan runs a company called core fit hiring, and we talked, we really all the ways that you have to think about hiring, you know, as a marketing, as a, as a kind of a full time marketing thing, not just like, oh, I have position.

John Jantsch (09:23): I need to go out and find somebody for that position. That’s really where you get yourself in trouble. Cuz a lot of times, by that point, you’re desperate . And so, uh, what Ryan professes is, is really something that, that goes on nonstop that you’re always looking for the right talent. All right. Number four, my friend Mike Alz, Mike’s been, uh, on at least five times. I bet he had a new book out called get different marketing that can’t be ignored. So Mike kind of goes through his, I think the acronym was dad, his, his approach to of thinking about not just being better, wouldn’t it be nice if that’s all it took but, but that, that, you know, better sometimes saying for granted better sometimes is just assumed. Whereas different is a way that, you know, you really go against an industry, you go against a trend, you get people’s attention.

John Jantsch (10:15): You still gotta be good. I’m not, I’m not pooing that, uh, by any mean, but I, I think that his, his method for positioning your business or, or brand to get noticed in attractive best prospects and convert opportunities into sales is worth a listen. Right? Number three. Now, as some of, you know, long time listeners know, I occasionally only do solo shows and I only put myself in this list because , my solo shows typically are in the top downloads for the year. So I guess it qualified in, in that, uh, standpoint. So I get to pick, you’re already a listener. So I’m, you know, I’m not throwing this out there. So you listen to my show because you’re already listening to my show, but I did an episode on creating content for every stage of the customer journey. And I think that it touched a nerve, you know, content is looked at by so many people as a one off project or, or, you know, solely to get people to know who you are or, or to generate leads.

John Jantsch (11:16): But really it really needs to be the voice of strategy. It’s such an important piece of marketing these days that you’ve gotta incorporate every phase of the customer journey. And here’s the thing. As people move through the customer journey, meaning they come to learn about you and they start investigating and maybe they’re considering hiring you. I mean their, their questions and objectives change at each stage of those each stage of the journey. And, and you know, I talk a lot about the, the marketing hourglass so that no, like trust, try by repeat and refer stages. You’ve gotta be thinking about content that helps guide people. You can’t force people, but guide people, uh, through those stages. And so I’ve been, you know, I talk about the customer journey, talk about it frequently, but in this particular, uh, episode, I really wanted to tie content to it because frankly, if you view content this way, as the voice of strategy, as something you create for every stage of customer journey, you can produce less content there at it.

John Jantsch (12:12): You don’t have to produce as much content if you are strategically targeting your content for something, for an action. To answer a question, to answer an objective, to move somebody through the customer journey. All right, number two, Claire, come on, how to optimize your work performance. So that’s Claire’s business. She helps busy professionals optimize their performance, frankly. It’s part therapy. She works with professionals, really helping them kind of do this whole work life integration thing again, another, I didn’t realize this until I really started digging in another episode about mindset in the way that you build habits, that last boost your pro productivity and optimize your work performance.

John Jantsch (13:09): All right. And last but not least number one, this is probably, I hate, you know, I do a hundred some episodes, so I hate to pick a favorite, but this is probably my favorite book that I read this year. I read a lot of books, but Oliver Burman’s 4,000 weeks time management for mortals is one that I just, anybody who asks me, um, know any good books this is the first one that I, I, I throw at them. You know, the, the, the 4,000 weeks is based on the average lifespan of a human being and it’s brief. So I still use somebody my age I’ve lived 3000 weeks. So it really, in some ways, when I first started this book is like, wow, that’s a cold splash in the face. Right. But I think the problem is, or what, what, what I think the author, what Oliver is trying to get at here is that we’re so obsessed with length, our to-do lists and our inboxes and our work life balance and creating hacks and, and finding, I mean, what he essentially says is stop.

John Jantsch (14:08): You can’t win that game. , you know, stop trying. In fact, that’s really the, the thing that causes, uh, the most stress us. In fact, the things that we’re trying to do, like to be more productive, to be more efficient, to manage our inboxes, that’s the stuff that’s actually making things worse. So in the book, he talks a lot about that, again, mindset and, and really many of the unhelpful ways that we’ve come to think about time. But then he also shares a lot of, of information about how to think about doing things differently and so that we can show up better in, in the present moment. I mean, that’s kind of the idea behind the 4,000 weeks is, you know, let’s use ’em more wisely. All right. So that’s my top 10 shows for the year. Hopefully you enjoyed my little run through, you can find them all in the show notes, uh, a link, if you wanna listen to them individually, but look for more new episodes coming to a podcast, listening device, headset, whatever it is you do.

John Jantsch (15:11): car to you. All right. Love those reviews. Check it out at iTunes. Leave us a review. If you like this show, let me know what else you’d like to hear. Who’d you’d like to hear me interview. I love those requests. All right. It’s just John at duct tape, marketing.com. If you wanna send me a note, take care.

John Jantsch (15:30): All right. That wraps up a, another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. I wanna thank you so much for tuning in. Feel free to share this show. Feel free to give us reviews. You know, we love those things. Also, did you know that we had created training, marketing training for your team? If you’ve got employees, if you’ve got a staff member that wants to learn a marketing system, how to install of that marketing system in your business, check it out. It’s called the certified marketing manager program from duct tape marketing. You can find it at ducttapemarketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that tab that says training for your team

John Jantsch (00:01): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the MarTech podcast, hosted by my friend, Ben Shapiro brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network with episodes you can listen to in under 30 minutes, the MarTech podcast shares stories from world class marketers who use technology to generate growth and E business and career success. Recent episode, one of my favorite extending the lifetime value of your customer. You know, I love to talk about that. Listen to the MarTech podcast, wherever you get your podcast.

John Jantsch (00:43): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Dr. Sophia Godkin. She’s a health psychologist, happy and happiness relationship and transf a lot. There’s a lot of title in there. Transformational coach. She’s also the author of the five minute gratitude journal. Give thanks, practice positivity. Fine joy. So Sophia, thanks for joining me.

Dr. Sophia Godkin (01:12): Thank you so much for having me, John and I take full responsibility for you fumbling there in the introduction, but just all of those titles, it’s hard to leave one out that they’re all really meaningful to me. So so for that introduction,

John Jantsch (01:24): Well, my longtime listeners know that I just roll with it. I don’t, I don’t do redos so that’s wonderful. The, the, I, I can say though, that I’m absolutely certain, you’re the first happy I’ve had on the show. I’m positive of that. I’m

Dr. Sophia Godkin (01:39): Also positive of that. Yes, because I made up the term. So ,

John Jantsch (01:44): But, but to tell you the truth, I really, I kind of wanted to do this for personal reasons. I’ve got a couple issues to work through today. Is that all right with you? oh my

Dr. Sophia Godkin (01:52): Gosh. No, totally. You, you might be being sarcastic, but I’m, I think sometimes that vulnerability and that sort of in the moment support is, is yeah, can be really helpful to others. So I’ll let you decide how we spend our time. All right.

John Jantsch (02:05): Well, I, I would be lying if I didn’t say I have a lot of guests on here because I really want to chat with them and hear what they have to say. Not only to record it, but I get, I get as much outta doing these interviews as any listeners that’s for sure. So tell me a little bit about, uh, we’re gonna get into the five minute gratitude journal, um, and your work in general, but give me a, give us a sense of kind of your journey to becoming a pathologist. And as we were talking before we got started in Boise, Idaho right now.

Dr. Sophia Godkin (02:33): Yeah. Thanks so much for that, that question, John, I often joke that I had to get, get a PhD in stress management in order to learn how to manage my own stress. And it’s, it’s not a joke. That was my journey, but that was the very beginning of my journey of understanding that life could be lived better. Life could be lived in a more harmonious internal state. And it took me being a lot of under a lot of stress and sort of having that internal realization that, oh my gosh, this isn’t working out for me and, and what can I do to make it better? So, yeah, that, that was all going on during my, my PhD journey and life really did provide me with the tools and teachers I needed at the time and that continues to happen. And I’m so grateful for it. And, and I’m a natural teacher. I’m a natural share. I’m a natural writer, I’m a natural coach. So it’s only fitting that I, everything I learn and just wanna share with others. So yeah, it took a, a lot of challenges along the way, the challenges don’t end, we just learn how to relate to them differently. And so, yeah. Uh, that’s a little bit of my journey. I hope that’s, that’s

John Jantsch (03:33): That? That’s great. It’s so simple to talk about this idea of, of just deciding to be happy, a big cuz that’s really what it ends up being quite frankly, to some degree. So why is it so hard for you? It seems so simple. Yeah. And yet it’s so hard.

Dr. Sophia Godkin (03:47): Absolutely. John. Yeah, it does seem simple and it is hard and let’s, let’s use what you said there as, as a sort of entry point into that. The answer to that, all you have to do is decide to be happy and there’s so, so much truth in that you just have to just to decide to be happy, but how many people actually have the tools and resources and mental mindset to be able to decide to be happy? So there are many things that prevent us from that decision to be happy, right? Some of us don’t think that we can be happy, right. Based on the experiences we’ve had in our lives, based on the sorts of things that we have lived through. We don’t know that life number one can be happy. And number two, that we can make a decision to be happy that there is choice involved there. Right? So until we, until either life shows us or we again have have some, some, some experiences that invite us into that, that realization and provide us with the tools to, to exercise that choice and that decision to be happy. We can’t make that. We can’t make that choice. There is no choice to be made. Yeah.

John Jantsch (04:48): And I think that you, you hit on a point. I think a lot of people have spent a lot of years sort of going the other direction or having people tell them to go the other direction. I, I work with so many entrepreneurs and, and there’s so much, there’s not only stress and that there’s just a lot of self-doubt. And a lot of people telling, you know, I, I had somebody on last week. I, I, I, I think, and, and he was supposed to be, his parents said, oh, growing up, he was supposed to be a doctor. He didn’t wanna be a doctor. And felt like for so many years that he had let his parents down, even though on paper, terribly, terribly successful. So I think a lot of people really, uh, struggle. That’s like the key, one of the keys down unlocking I’m sure. And people that you work with.

Dr. Sophia Godkin (05:29): Absolutely. Yeah. And that’s a great example, John, because sometimes people think that it’s trauma or these, these really big traumatic experiences that prevents us from being who we really are, but there are so many smaller versions of that, that, that prevent us from stepping into our full potential and what you, what you described as just a belief structure, right. A belief structure that exists in our society that exists in our family and culture and all of us have that in some way. Right. Depending on the culture that we came from, um, and the society and the specific city and place that, that we grow up in, right. We all have some beliefs that we’ve been trained to adopt. Right. And we, until we choose differently, those are the beliefs and the structures that we live with. So yeah, I’m not surprised to hear that the experience that, that this person had, because we all have them in some way, and there is hope is hope, right? That’s the great part about it. There, there is hope. There are things that you can do to, to help lead yourself in, in the direction of, of being more of the decision maker in your own life. Uh, and being more of that active agent of change.

John Jantsch (06:30): So I wanna get into a little bit of that, but I, I have to ask this, calling yourself a happy O does, does it ever feel like you have a, to target on your back? Like if you have a bad day, you’re not allowed

Dr. Sophia Godkin (06:42): Oh, another great question, John. I used to feel that way. I used to feel a lot of pressure, but one of the things I say is that happiness is very little about being happy all the time. Actually, if you’re trying to be happy all the time, you can’t really be happy. , that’s

John Jantsch (06:57): Like, it’s stress, right?

Dr. Sophia Godkin (06:59): Yeah. It’s so much stress. And so what, what I really encourage people to adopt is, is very genuine and, and authentic perception of what happiness really is. Right. There’s a version of happiness that actually doesn’t require us to do so much and to be so much and to try so hard. So actually being a pathologist these days to be is a relief. Right. Cause it means all it means is that I, I have the tools and resources to relate to life in a different way that allows me to be content no matter what’s happening. And, and that’s yeah, yeah. Even though the title is so, so strong and fierce, it’s a lot about changing the definition of happiness. Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:35): Yeah. And I would agree with that. I think, well, it’s always, uh, something to work on to me I’m, I’m, I’m most joyful and happy when I’m consciously mindful, which is pretty simple thing to do really . So I think that that’s, uh, I, I think a lot of the folks I work with, it’s worrying about what happened yesterday and worry about what’s gonna happen tomorrow. That causes the greatest deal of unhappiness.

Dr. Sophia Godkin (07:59): Yeah. Yeah. And I’m glad, I’m glad to hear that you found, you found that that recipe of happiness that works for you. And it’s very much about that understanding who we are and, and what that little golden nugget is for us.

John Jantsch (08:13): So your book, the five minute gratitude journal make the connection between gratitude and happiness

Dr. Sophia Godkin (08:19): well, you just made it, John, you, you know, you mentioned the power of, uh, mindfulness and being in the present moment. And there’s nothing like gratitude that can drop us into that present moment. And that realization that what I have right now and where I am right now is enough. It is perfect actually. And it is quite good, right? Our mind is drawn to focus on the negative. It’s just the inherent bias that our mind has. And so gratitude helps us to sort of, what’s the word I’m looking for to contrast, right. Or negate that, that bias that we naturally have. And that’s the connection between gratitude and happiness once you’re in that moment, once you’re noticing things to appreciate that are always there, right? It’s just, again, a decision or a choice. Do I focus on those things or do I focus on other things that are there that are maybe not so good? And when we focus on, on what’s there, some of it being good, right. That’s when we’re grateful and inherently happy.

John Jantsch (09:13): Yeah. It’s amazing how often you can have an amazing day, all kinds of great things happen. Life’s great. And then like one really bad thing happens and that like spoils it all does it cause I choose to focus on

Dr. Sophia Godkin (09:25): Yeah. You know, it does, if we think that, and this is, this is the normative sort of sort of thought process is that when bad things happen, it’s bad. Yeah. But bad things happening doesn’t have to be bad. Actually it, it could just be part of the normal flow of life, which it is. So it’s, it’s again, more about changing how we perceive and respond to those, those various situations in our lives. Some will be happy. Some will be sad. Some will cause anger, some will cause frustration. Right. And it’s it’s how do I, how do I feel about that and how, how do I respond to that?

John Jantsch (09:57): So describe the book and, and how it’s structured and then, and kind of how you suggest people use it.

Dr. Sophia Godkin (10:02): Thank you for asking John. So the book is, is the, the, the primary focus of the book is on prompts that encourage gratitude. And I was really actually mindful about the, the creation of these prompts. They’re really meant to put you in a state of gratitude, um, not just asking you to list five things that you’re grateful for, for, but really to get into that feeling of gratitude. Cuz gratitude is an emotion. It’s an experience, right? In order for it to be effective, it really has to be that experience. So each of these prompts is designed to really invite you to step into that feeling of gratitude. That experience of gratitude and book also contains quotes because folks find them to be really inspiring. And there’s nothing better than being inspired by the wisdom of, of leaders who came before us. And we also have affirmations.

Dr. Sophia Godkin (10:46): Now affirmations are an invitation to again, notice the positive in your life. Sometimes affirmations are taken out of context and used as a way to sort of sugar coat situations and, and put rose colored glasses on. And I always encourage people that if an affirmation doesn’t feel natural to you do not use it right. Switch it up so that it, it really invites you to be who you are and start where you are. Affirmations are really powerful when they acknowledge and validate where you are now and then invite you to maybe step forward or, or, or step into a goal that you have.

John Jantsch (11:22): So, so I should stop saying I love sits, and just let that go. Okay.

Dr. Sophia Godkin (11:26): Probably if you don’t love sits probably yes. I would encourage you to stop saying that. But you, what you can say is I don’t mind sit ups and I’m curious to see what, what doing sits will feel like tomorrow morning, right? That feels a little better.

John Jantsch (11:40): My wife and I actually go through the pages together and discuss the prompts. So I think that’s, that’s a, a legitimate way to use the book. I suggest

Dr. Sophia Godkin (11:49): I love that. I love hearing that, Don, thank you so much. There have been at least a handful of people before you who’ve let me know that that’s what they’re doing. And it just brings so much joy to my heart because again, the very, the very same things that allow us to be more content within ourselves, allow us and encourage us to be content in our relationships. Right. And sharing that ability to notice what’s going well with ourselves, with our relationship, with our partner in the world, in the community, right? All of that just contributes to a relationship satisfaction. So I’m so glad to hear that you’re using the book that

John Jantsch (12:21): Way and now a word from our sponsor. Yes. This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by HubSpot. HubSpot is the world’s leading CRM platform and has rolled out over FD plus integrations over the past year to help businesses connect with customers like never before the latest suite of customer-centric tools to help your business, show your customers a whole lot of love, including seamless payment tools, CRM powered, CMS, customer portals, and feedback surveys, secure customer portals, keep ticket conversations going between customers and reps offer access to your knowledge base and can be customized to fit your brand without having to code a thing and customer feedback surveys, where you can capture unique feedback to your business, share insights with your team and grow your understanding of your customers. Learn more about how a HubSpot CRM platform can help build, maintain, and grow your customer relationships @ Hubspot.com.

John Jantsch (13:23): Switching to the lovely that the book is bringing joy in helping lives, but let’s switch. Let’s put the author hat on the book is also selling extremely well. And do you is your first time author. So I’m, I’m guessing that you were like, here we go, let’s see if this thing sells. What do you attribute to, do you attribute anything to the success?

Dr. Sophia Godkin (13:45): Thanks for asking that question, John. I think so. The way I look at sales or, or purchases is that people are being receptive. I , and people are receptive when they feel that there is something, um, being offered that they need. And so that’s what I attribute the success to. It’s it’s creating something that I think offers practical skill, a practical tool for something that people need help with in their lives, which is of course a greater sense of happiness, of greater sense of being able to enjoy life no matter whether we’re in the middle of a, a global pandemic or something else. So yeah, when I think of success, I think of the right tool at the right time.

John Jantsch (14:24): Yeah. I wonder if not to downplay the success in any shape, but I wonder if the, if there’s a Sur sort of a, uh, a renewed searching for this idea of what to be grateful for. That’s going on little bit right now.

Dr. Sophia Godkin (14:38): Yeah. That’s a great, a great point, John, and, and it’s a curiosity that I have as well, crises tend to inspire that, that search in us. And if anything, I think this, this latest global crisis that we’ve, that we’ve had in in many ways and in individual crisis as well, it wouldn’t be unlikely to, to fathom that, that it inspired this, this new search for happiness, this new search for maintaining pleasure and maintaining a sense of meaning in life.

John Jantsch (15:03): Let’s talk a little bit about the relationship between work and happiness. Um, there’s so many people that I don’t know what the percentage is. Let’s say 50% of their life , you know, in some, some, uh, cases is, is spent in work, doing work that either makes ’em happy or doesn’t make ’em happy or, uh, allows ’em to do something that makes ’em happy. You work with a lot of individuals that probably come to you as people , but some of their baggages packed up in their work.

Dr. Sophia Godkin (15:36): Absolutely. Yes. When, when we work with, with people as, as you and I both do the, the employee, the colleague, the entrepreneur is the human being, right. There’s no separation between the work that I do and who I am in most cases. Right. Right. As much as we would try to leave work at work, whether we’re an entrepreneur or, or we work for a corporation, it’s rarely how it works. Right. We are in an ideal sense, a whole person. Right. And we bring that whole person wherever we go. So yes, it’s, it’s really important to find pleasure in, in our work or to choose work, that that, that can bring us pleasure. And a sense of meaning, because as you mentioned, a work is such a big part of our life. And it’s, it’s interesting. I think that our entymology or the way we use words, leads us to think about work and life sort of separately. But again, it really isn’t. So any decision we make in work affects our life and should, should be made together.

John Jantsch (16:28): Mm-hmm I think it’s also the duality. Like, am I going to find work that makes me happy be, or am I happy in the work I’m doing? That’s I think that a lot of people struggle with this, oh, I have to find this thing that just lights me on fire. And I’ve seen a lot of people where it has to find you . So I, I think that’s a, I think that’s a real challenge, cuz I think a lot of people have been sold on this idea that I have to define my purpose and I have to go find this. I have to sit in a room until I decide what I wanna be when I grow up. And I, I think that causes as much stress as, as anything.

Dr. Sophia Godkin (17:00): Yeah. Yeah. I, I love how you phrased that, John. I think why not let people off the hook, there are people like me who will, who can’t, uh, live, unless they are doing the very thing that they love and you know, again, that passion is that passion at home at work it’s all the same, but that’s only one personality type one way of being, and there are so many others, so there are plenty of people I work with. Yeah. For whom it’s not that important. Right. They love numbers. And as long as they’re doing numbers, they’re happy at work. Right. And so let’s let everybody off the hook and just say, as long as your job is using some of your strengths, as long as, so you’re, you’re enjoying the people you’re working with or getting along with the people you’re working with. Right. Cause that’s, that’s incredibly important. And then, then yeah, we don’t have to talk about purpose and fulfillment, even though some of us love to do that. Right. It’s not, it’s not the goal for everybody. Everybody’s different. And, and it’s important to acknowledge that. Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:49): So when you see, or, or may, maybe this doesn’t have to be in the context of seeing patients, what are, what are two, three things that you commonly tell people to get started on this? Some people might call them hacks or, you know, but what are, what are kind of some of the things that you look at almost everybody and say, I, well, here are a couple things you can

Dr. Sophia Godkin (18:09): Do. Ooh. Very good question, John. I’m gonna have to think about that one for just a second. Everybody. There are common themes. Definitely. And there are common challenges that we experience and we all kind of start in these challenges at a different place or, or at least people come see me at a different place in that journey. That being said. Yeah. I think, I think a few things that we can really to take away from having worked with people is the first would be don’t ignore your emotions, do not ignore your emotions. Oftentimes people stay in those transition spaces or spaces of, I don’t know what to do when they’re ignoring their emotions. I don’t know what to do usually comes from. Mm. I kind of know what to do, but I’m, I’m afraid to face what that is and that’s okay. It’s totally okay to hang out there for a while, but just know that your emotions are trying to tell you something and that’s where journaling your journal, my journal, that’s where those sorts of things can really be supportive tools to getting to know what’s really going on for you in your inner world.

Dr. Sophia Godkin (19:04): What are your thoughts and your emotions trying to tell you. So that would be one hack. Uh, and it’s not a, a quick hack, right? It’s, it’s something that you learn more with practice and that becomes more natural over time. But it’s definitely a hack. When I think of the long term, like if there was one skill that I wish everybody would know, it would be how to tend to your emotions, right. And how to, how to integrate your emotions into your life. So that would be one another would be to trust your gut, to really trust your instincts, trust your intuition. And that’s again, where, where we’re all so different, right? Some for some people it’s really that connection with their heart. Right? My heart is telling me this. I can’t ignore it for other people. It, it can be kind of, kind of logical, right?

Dr. Sophia Godkin (19:41): As long as it’s, it’s not that overwhelming logic, it can come, come from our system of logic. Right. So really understanding how it is that your inner system, your inner guidance speaks to you and not shoving that away. A lot of those belief systems that we talked about earlier that we grew up with and that we have trouble, trouble sort of integrating into our life, they are what sort of impedes our ability to listen to our, to our intuition and inner guidance. And that’s why it’s so important to become familiar with, with what that looks like for us as individuals.

John Jantsch (20:09): Well, I suspect as you’ve done this, uh, for, or a number of years, you, you realize there’s no recipe, right? It’s everybody is unique and , and like telling somebody how to be happy is probably hard to do. Isn’t it?

Dr. Sophia Godkin (20:20): Thank you for that. Yes, John. Yes. And I, I struggle with that on, on these, these public platforms and, and social media, all, all I wanna do is talk to everybody one by one. And that’s my favorite thing to do, because then I know you and I, I know what you need and I can tell what you need pretty quickly, but speaking to thousands or millions of people at a time. Yes. It, it presents challenges because we are different. Uh, we need different things. We need to hear different things at different times. So yes. How to be happy is the question I wake up with every day. And it’s, it’s the question behind my articles, my books, every speaking, engagement, everything. And yeah, I just hope that the, the right seeds are planted for people that the next thing they hear from somebody else like yourself or, or another author that they read from can sort of help them on that journey. So

John Jantsch (21:03): You’ve written a book that obviously fits very well into more rituals. You mentioned journaling already do. Are, are you a practicer of, of kind of getting your day started in a certain way?

Dr. Sophia Godkin (21:15): Yes. Big time. One of my favorite ways to start the day is by moving my body without some form of exercise in the morning, I, I just, I don’t feel like my, myself, I don’t feel like myself and I used to try to meditate first thing in, but I, I am one of those really sort of embodied people. I do need to move. I need to tune into my body. And so my body let me know that, Hey, like we don’t wanna sit here and meditate first. We wanna go and move . So I start my day with movement and then I do some sort of attending to my emotions and, and reflection of what I need that day.

John Jantsch (21:47): Now, my, when, when I had young children, we were lucky to sneak, uh, any of me time in, it seemed like in, in the morning, my morning rituals grown about two hours. Now. I , I think because, well, first off I get up really early, but I, I just keep adding things more and more to it. So I love it.

Dr. Sophia Godkin (22:04): You’re making up for lost time. Right.

John Jantsch (22:06): I, so Sophia tell people where they can find, uh, out more about your work and obviously the five minute gratitude journal.

Dr. Sophia Godkin (22:16): Yeah. So if you’d like to, uh, learn more about me and my work, just visit www.thehappinessdoctor.com and the five minute gratitude journal you can find on Amazon, or just click on a link on my, uh, webpage.

John Jantsch (22:28): Awesome. Well, I appreciate you, uh, stopping by the duct tape marketing podcast and who knows. I may end up in, uh, Boise, Idaho, when, when airplanes start flying for me again,

Dr. Sophia Godkin (22:39): Thank you so much for having me, John, and yes, if you’re ever in Boise, um, I would love to connect in person. Thank you so much.

John Jantsch (22:44): All right. That wraps up another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. I wanna thank you so much for tuning in, feel free to share this show. Feel free to give us reviews. You know, we love those things. Also, did you know that we had created training, marketing training for your team? If you’ve got employees, if you’ve got a staff member that wants to learn a marketing system, how to install that marketing system in your business, check it out. It’s called certified marketing manager program from duct tape marketing. You could find it at ducttapemarketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that tab that says training for your team.

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the MarTech podcast, hosted by my friend, Ben Shapiro, brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network with episodes you can listen to in under 30 minutes, the MarTech podcast shares stories from world class marketers who use technology to generate growth and achieve business and career success. Recent episode, one of my favorite extending the lifetime value of your customer. You know, I love to talk about that. Listen to the MarTech podcast, wherever you get your podcast.

John Jantsch (00:43): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Jacqueline Lieberman. She’s a former managing partner and the head of strategy for story worldwide and the co founder of Brand Crudo. So I guess we’re gonna talk about brands today. So Jacqueline, thanks for joining me.

Jacqueline Lieberman (01:02): Thanks for having me, John. It’s a

John Jantsch (01:05): Pleasure. I, I, I always like to get kind of to deeper than the tagline, shall we say? Uh, when, when I talk to people about branding, one of the things that, that you are talking about is making brands more human, putting purpose into practice, and I’d love it. If you would take that beyond the tagline.

Jacqueline Lieberman (01:22): Oh, sure. Well, I mean, I think one of the things, one of my goals is really, when I say I wanna make brands more human is when I think about brands, brands are really people’s introduction and their way to interact with companies. Mm-hmm so that’s what a brand is to people. So the more human that, that brand is the better that interaction’s going to be. So all the beloved brands that are out there, those are the ones that really just behave like a human being. They have a conscience, they have a point of view, right? They have a soul. So, so I think that’s, that’s what I try and help my clients to do,

John Jantsch (01:57): But they’re also probably telltale signs. They’re also able to communicate that effectively and deliver on it. If I, and, and people experience that it’s not enough to just have that soul, is it

Jacqueline Lieberman (02:08): Exactly, exactly. You have to practice what you preach. You can’t just say it. They cannot just be a nice phrase on the lobby wall. You actually have to walk the

John Jantsch (02:16): Walk. So I work, I work with a lot of small business owners and have over the years. And if I mention the, you know, I sometimes call it the B word because they’re, they’re almost like, oh, well I don’t have a brand that’s that’s for big product companies. And my contention is every business has a brand because it’s, it’s really just the collective perception of the people that you come into contact with good, bad or indifferent. So, so where do you fall on, you know, companies kind of ignoring that idea?

Jacqueline Lieberman (02:44): Well, I mean, I think even, even those owners, their brands, their personal brands walking around embodying. So, so even if it’s their company and just because they might have a, a business name doesn’t mean that they’re not a brand cuz they’re associated with, when they, when somebody hears the name of that company, somebody is going to have a gut feeling about that, that company. And so whether it’s the, the, person’s the founder’s name on the wall, or it happens to be a name that you just made up that has to resonate with people. And so you have to really pay attention to that and have some care and attention into branding, even if you’re small.

John Jantsch (03:24): So, so I wanna get into some specifics, but I will tell you this time of year, a lot of people are watching, uh, football. I don’t know if you’re an NFL fan at all, but uh, playoff season, a lot of people are. And, and of course all the ads are insurance companies that are bay, basically communicating a brand that has nothing to do with their product. Progressive Geico, even state farm seems, seems to be the trend with insurance companies is, is create personality. So we don’t have to talk about products. People don’t really wanna buy anyway. So, so talk a little bit about that as an effective approach. And, and is it for everyone?

Jacqueline Lieberman (04:03): Well, I mean, I think so taking insurance, just for an example, I mean, so that’s, that’s a tough, that’s a tough market to be in, right? So talk about like a low interest category. We’re not talking about automobiles that people look forward to having that purchase when the, when the time comes. So, so taking that tact is, is smart for insurance because they have to associate their brand with something that’s positive because for insurance, the flip side of insurance is that you don’t wanna need it. So the flip side is that there’s some sort of disaster that has happened to you, so they wanna make it a positive feeling. And I think that that’s exactly why of those brands are taking the tech that they are. But that said, I think that that’s a lesson, a lot of brands can, can take. And it doesn’t matter. A lot of, as you mentioned before, oh, I’m a small business and I’m not a big brand, but I think it doesn’t matter what category you’re in. You can still create a brand around what, because that has to resonate with people. And that’s the only way that you’re going to be able to connect with people is, is by doing that

John Jantsch (05:09): Well. And I think particularly today there’s so many channels and ways to reach, uh, consumers that I think a lot of that’s happened. I, I, I think brands in a lot of cases, what go back 20, 30, 40 years ago, I know you weren’t around, but it, but for some of my listeners, the brand was kind of the personality of your advertising in a lot of ways was, was the brand. But now you go on, you look at Google reviews and they talk about rusty, the technician that came to their house and did an amazing job. And all of a sudden that’s the brand. So how, how do, how do you suggest that brands? I, I wanna say deal, that’s probably the, the wrong word address. The fact that there are so many channels and, and so much of the, the brand in a lot of ways is certainly out of our control.

Jacqueline Lieberman (05:50): Yeah. And, and I think, well, I mean, I know that Marty Newmeyer, famous author of the brand gap, he, he basically says a brand is not what you say it is. It’s what, what everybody else says it is. And so that’s really, that’s really what a brand is. So in looking at those reviews and that’s the best social listening that a brand can do by the way is, uh, that’s the best consumer insight. But I think when looking at brands, I use usually the, the quickest, one of the quick tools that I always give to, uh, any client and even on social me, my social media feeds is saying, if you think about a brand in terms of three spheres of like you think of a ven diagram of you have mind, you have heart, you have conscience. And it’s thinking about a, is like in their mind, what’s their point of view in the conscience, what’s the soul?

Jacqueline Lieberman (06:42): How do you wanna be remembered? And the heart is what are your non-negotiable beliefs? So in saying those things, and, and when you’re talking about and how to deal with reviews, it’s the reviews fit under one of those things. Right? So, so it’s like in Howard ranch should respond is really about that. So if you’re always thinking in the realm of that, you have kind of those three facets of the brand, it really dimensionalizes it. And it gives you latitude to dial things up or down as you need to. So you could still be agile and respond. So it doesn’t have to be just here’s the advertising line. It’s like, well, no, what’s our point to view about this, or know, how do we help these people who are having the same problem in these reviews? And so I think it’s just like an easy construct that people can really wrap their heads around. Even if they know nothing about branding or marketing. I just kind of give that to them as a, as a framework. And it starts to lead people, even non marketers down onto a place of like, Hmm. How, how do I think about my brand as a conscience? Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:43): And so, yeah. So as you start getting into like, what would the brand do cluster, right. we can use that as a decision making. We need to get some of those little bands and put ’em exactly say that. So, so when somebody calls you in, and I know that you, I, I, I know that it’s very common for, uh, brands to have a marketing agency that is really doing a lot of the tactics, a lot of the execution, and they will typically sometimes call in a, an outside or a third party brand, uh, strategist what’s generally going, uh, is about a five part question what’s generally going on when that happens. And then what’s your process than for adding or, or I think you used the word excavating as a, as a, as part of the process. So, so walk me through what’s going on when somebody finally does that. And then what do you do to try to turn this up?

Jacqueline Lieberman (08:32): Yeah. Well, I mean, a lot of times, so unfortunately what happens is, and I don’t know why maybe you can tell me why, in your opinion, I’d love to hear what you think about it is. I don’t know why, but there’s when management, there seems to be a, a change in management. Yeah. And it doesn’t matter, uh, really what the level is, but it’s typically at the senior level, they feel like that they need to completely blow up the brand. Yeah. And start over and put their own point of view and their spin on it for the sake of doing something new and relevant. And I’m not saying that that being new and relevant in and having a new marketing, the view is, is the wrong way to go. Because usually if there’s a change in leadership, there’s a need for that change. Yeah. Yeah.

Jacqueline Lieberman (09:22): But the, the part that I, that I always find so surprising is that they come in with no regard to the history of the brand, the origin story of the brand. So whether that origin was five years ago or 50 years ago, or a hundred years ago, it doesn’t matter. Every brand started for some reason, it was some somebody thought of it for a reason. There was a value there. So typically what happens is I’ve gotten called in now more, more than I can count for that scenario where there’s a change of a change. Of course, the rest of the team doesn’t agree. The senior management wants to go in one direction, but then there’s legacy people who feel like that they’re going, that it’s in their gut, that it doesn’t feel right. Yeah. And they need somebody, they need like a, a third party to come in to just kind of almost do brand therapy.

Jacqueline Lieberman (10:14): Yeah. To understand. So, so the, the excavating part is me talking to the CEO or the CMO and finding out. So tell me exactly why is it that you think that this part of the brand needs to change. And very often those are the conversations that’s when I start pulling out really the reasons why, because the reasons that they’re articulating is actually not it at all. Yeah. Yeah. And so when I start going in and asking those questions, well, tell me why, and tell me a little bit more about that. And then I also will interview the, the other stakeholders, the people who perhaps have been on board for a while, and I start to kind of marry those two worlds together. And, and that’s really the beginning of, of the new brand foundation. So it doesn’t mean that we’re forgetting the origin story. And it doesn’t mean that all we’re talking about is legacy stuff. It just means that we’re creating a new foundation starting from a fresh place that has everybody’s input at the table. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely.

John Jantsch (11:14): But I, but you could see the, you could see the pressure, the internal pressure, the CMO just got fired. The new CMO is not going to make any head wide by saying, we’re just going, keep going down this path. Right. Exactly. They do have to bring in kind

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John Jantsch (12:28): This is sort of a weird question, but since we’re talking about bigger companies, what we’re role does politics internally play in, in the mess that gets made?

Jacqueline Lieberman (12:38): Yeah, a lot. Uh, it’s a huge role. And I think, and a lot of, a lot of my role I end up playing is I am the facilitator and I’m bringing all of these worlds together in a way that a allows them to all speak their mind right. In a safe place. And, and I’m the one. So if I’m the one that’s coming up with the insights and playing back, what I heard, then there isn’t, there, there are no enemies made because they can’t argue really with me because it’s like, well, I’m saying, well, this is what I heard. Yeah. And so that’s, so I become like the facilitator, the therapist, the marriage counselor, bringing everybody together. But at the same point, I’m also constantly asking questions to mind. Well, why, and tell me more about that. And when you say your values are, you’re a trusted brand, by the way, everybody says they’re a trusted brand, but tell me exactly why you think that. So that’s really a lot of what my role is, is to help get away from those politics and just kind of ask the right questions.

John Jantsch (13:42): How often do you get the chance to go deeper than marketing? So into sales, into service, you know, into, you know, pretty much every facet because I that’s all part of the brand. Whether people, people say it or not. So how, how often do you get that opportunity?

Jacqueline Lieberman (13:58): Well, when I do workshops, I specifically ask for the attendees in the workshops to be all representatives from. And I ask for, give me somebody from sales, give me somebody from R and D, somebody who sits in customer service. I don’t want all marketing people in that room. Right. So I say, if we have to make this a, a two part process, then let’s do it. But I do not wanna have all marketing people in the room because, because to your point, a brand is made up of all different facets. It’s not just what the marketing team dreams up. So I need to understand the points of view. And very often a lot of that insight comes from the people. Well, not in the marketing department, it comes from the people on the front lines or the people who are thinking about the brand in different ways.

John Jantsch (14:42): Yeah. Referrals rarely happen because of good marketing

Jacqueline Lieberman (14:46):

John Jantsch (14:47): Right. And, and, and yet most businesses, a significant part of their business comes by way of referral. And that happens because somebody had a great experience. Yeah. Not, not because they saw a fun ad. That’s true. So do you have, do, do you have any, I was gonna say examples that you don’t necessarily have to use, uh, concrete examples, but do you have any examples of where sort of typical gaps happen and it’s almost like there’s no internal communication and that’s creating a bad experience.

Jacqueline Lieberman (15:16): Yeah. Well, I mean, there’s, there’s one where there’s a, a human legacy founder person. Mm-hmm, , who’s either no longer with the company and the company is struggling with how to tell that story. So some with, do we tell it at all, or some are struggling with, how do we tell it and then tell it in a new way? Yeah. So there’s, so that’s, uh, that’s a typical problem that, that I tend to, to face with with clients. Another is they, they have a, a really great mission statement and all of the players are all kind of singing out of the same HYN books, so to speak, except they don’t know what to do with it. So they don’t know like they know why they’re there. And they’re really jazzed about working there, but they don’t have like that, that statement that actually, because it, it tends to be a mission statement’s also very long, typically as opposed to like a purpose statement, which could be very condensed and piffy, and you can remember it.

Jacqueline Lieberman (16:16): So really the recall is really how people start to embody it in their everyday life. So if you can’t remember what your mission is, then it’s like, then it’s probably too long and wordy and you probably need to revisit it. But the other part of it is taking that purpose into practice. And, and that really is going right down to, at the HR level of like, you need to put your purpose in your job postings, make sure you’re hiring the right culture. You need to put it in your performance reviews, that everybody needs to be accountable for living the purpose and embodying it and your everyday jobs. Because if, if, if you don’t bring it down to that level, then it really is just a nice statement in the lobby.

John Jantsch (17:00): Yeah. It’s interesting. I think they’re growing consensus among, uh, organizations that internal communications is actually where branding maybe starts. Yes. Completely. So talk to me a little bit about whether what you’ve seen or maybe how you sort of advise people on that.

Jacqueline Lieberman (17:17): Yeah. I mean, I think it’s it really, because, I mean, I think it’s the, it’s how people think about marketing. So people just think that marketing is this advertising box that you need to track in order to sell stuff. But at the same point, it’s really having a group of Evangel us who believe in it inside mm-hmm . So that’s why, when I talk about I, I came from the world of brand storytelling and of course I, I believe in brand storytelling, but I also really started to think about, and, and started my consulting around brand truth because no one can argue with what’s true. So if you could really, really believe it and believe it on the inside, inside the walls, that’s how the marketing really starts because then people are excited to be at work. They feel well compensated. They feel well respected. And, and it doesn’t matter whether you are part of the marketing team, you are marketing for that company because you’re happy being there. Yeah. So you’re creating evangelists inside the walls, and that’s the first step of marketing right there.

John Jantsch (18:18): Well, and it’s, it’s, it’s painful almost to see these companies, that transparency is one of our core values. And then when generally there’s no transparency , you know, going on. Cause I really think that’s, excuse me. I really think that’s the biggest disconnect is people sit around and come up with what should sound good rather than what, like you said, what is

Jacqueline Lieberman (18:37): Yeah, exactly. I mean, when it’s very, I mean, and I, I could see why it happens because businesses they’re myopically focused on the task at hand, right in front of them. And they’re trying to just get through what they need to get through, especially right now, everybody is, you know, having a hard time in, in all different ways, but, but you have to at least be in the regular practice of going 30,000 feet once in a while, once a quarter, once a year, at least, and start to look at your brand from that level and say, how are we really living our purpose? Is it really trickling down? Is it something that we need to reevaluate? How are we creating this world for the consumer? That’s something that they wanna be in, as opposed to us just selling messages

John Jantsch (19:26): 2021 is still gonna be a year where I think people are reeling from 2020. And so is there a, is there a message of trends or behaviors or things that people need to be aware of or looking out for, or doing more of or doing less of, or is it still, is it really just a matter of, of be true and stay the course?

Jacqueline Lieberman (19:50): Well, I mean, well, it’s definitely be true and stay of the course. I mean, for sure what the pandemic has highlighted, is it really highlighted the brands who did not, if they were not already purpose driven, it really highlighted the brands who were struggling with that. So it’s like, if you already know that and that’s already part of your marketing, then it’s, you’re ahead of the game. And the reason why is because consumers are really out there and they’re looking for, they’re looking for something like they’re looking for a little glimmer of hope and optimism, and that’s what brands and companies give each other. And so if you’re just giving bla platitudes and you’re not really doing anything of substance, then consumers are really gonna look at that and they’re making their choices because of that. And, and I think the brands who are winning right now are the ones that are, are really doing things that are, that are real and not just marketing because they’re trying to just hang on and survive. Yeah. They’re,

John Jantsch (20:50): They’re, they’re meaningful in some way to their customers think is a good way. Good way to look at it. So you have a podcast as well, uh, called UN do you wanna tell people what they could expect if they tuned in?

Jacqueline Lieberman (21:01): Sure. Uh, so I’ve been told that it’s, uh, NPR, like in terms of in, to the format. And I, I like to have guests on who either have a great brand story to tell. So if it’s a new up and coming brand, or even a legacy brand, I like to have brands on who have an authentic story and beginning that they wanna share. And I try to dissect that in a way that I extract insights that really, if you are a planner, if you’re a creative, a designer, uh, account person, if you’re listening to it, you can apply those insights directly to your work. And that’s really what I’m trying to do is, is give people kind of like a marketing insights, 1 0 1 that if you need, if you have 20 minutes from your day and you wanna listen, but you can listen to that and extract and apply to your work. Awesome.

John Jantsch (21:48): So you wanna tell people where, uh, they can find out more about, uh, brand Kuo and, uh, your work. Sure.

Jacqueline Lieberman (21:54): Yeah. Uh, so you can go to, uh, dub, dub, dub, brand crude.com and on there’s a link to uncooked we’re on apple, Spotify anywhere you, you know, get to podcast, but, but yeah, you can find everything there on brand crude.com.

John Jantsch (22:08): Awesome. Well, Jacqueline, it’s a pleasure spending time with you this afternoon and hopefully, uh, we can run into each other when we’re back out there on the road someday.

Jacqueline Lieberman (22:15): Wouldn’t that be nice. that would be great. Thanks so much, John, for having me.

John Jantsch (22:20): All right. So that wraps up another episode. I wanna thank you so much for tuning in and, you know, we love those reviews and comments. And just generally tell me what you think also did you know that you could offer the duct tape marketing system, our system to your clients, and build a complete marketing consulting coaching business, or maybe level up an agency with some additional services. That’s right. Check out the duct tape marketing consultant network. You can find it at ducttapemarketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that offer our system to your client’s tab.

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the MarTech podcast, hosted by my friend, Ben Shapiro, brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network with episodes you can listen to in under 30 minutes, the MarTech podcast shares stories from world class marketers who use technology to generate growth and achieve big business and career success. Recent episode, one of my favorite extending the lifetime value of your customer. You know, I love to talk about that. Listen to the MarTech podcast, wherever you get your podcast.

John Jantsch (00:43): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Tripp Lanier. He’s a professional coach host of the new man podcast beyond the macho jerk and the new age wimp. He’s also the author of a book we’re gonna talk about today called this book will make you dangerous. The, I irreverent, that’s a hard word to say, guy for men who refused to settle. So trip, welcome to the

Tripp Lanier (01:07): Show. Thanks John. I had somebody say it was the irrelevant guide for, uh . Yeah. That’s

John Jantsch (01:12): That’s that’s the tricking part. Yeah, you, you, you definitely just different meanings there. so let’s, let’s start with, um, the fact that, uh, being a man in some ways has taken a beating lately. Um, and yet I think some of the, um, unfortunately some of the attributes that a lot of people attribute with manhood, um, you know, are on full sort of raw display these last couple years. so kind of maybe walk me through a little bit of where you are positioning this idea of what it means to be a man.

Tripp Lanier (01:45): Well, I don’t know what it means to be a man. I, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t claim to take that position. I just tend to serve men primarily that’s that’s who my, my practice is based around when I got into personal growth and personal development, it was primarily a woman’s domain, you know? Yeah. Oprah was the one everyone was gunning to have their, their book featured on, on her show. So there wasn’t really a voice in the personal growth, spiritual growth self-help development world for, for men and, and wonderfully. Now it’s much more normal to read books that, that also are aimed at men in that, in that domain. So I grew outta that. I mean, I started podcasting in this arena, you know, 13 plus years ago and, and it’s great. It’s great to it. There’s so many other voices and there’s so much more diversity in that,

John Jantsch (02:27): But you do take a position, uh, or at least I’m gonna suggest you, you are by just your subtitle beyond the macho jerk and the new age wimp. So, uh, you are landing, you are landing somewhat on kind of where you think it, uh, it, it is today to be a man.

Tripp Lanier (02:43): I don’t know an you guys that wanna be either of those, right. Nobody’s standing, I say, wait a second, I’m a new age jerk, a new age win. Or I’m a macho jerk. Nobody wants to be either one of those guys. So it’s a, it’s fun to play with that polarization. And it’s a challenge to anybody say, can we evolve? Yeah. Can we be more integrated? Can we have brains? Can we have heart? Can we have spine? Um, and so it’s a, it’s a call. It’s a challenge to say, let’s, let’s start to look beyond some of these outdated old models and see what is becoming or what’s evolving and what’s available for us. And

John Jantsch (03:13): I think also a lot of in, in what I’ve read, I think you’re also a lot of you’re saying that you don’t get to find that it’s really more about being true to yourself. I mean, that’s, we’re gonna talk, uh, on, on your show about my latest book, the self reliant entrepreneur. And I say that all the time, the self parts on you. I mean, I , I’ve just given you some things to think about, but you’re the only one that can define what it means to be self reliant. And I think you’re saying that to some degree as well, aren’t you?

Tripp Lanier (03:36): Yeah, absolutely. I mean, a big part of my work is a even working with people on their businesses is how, how does this reflect you? How does this reflect who you are, who you’re becoming in this lifetime, instead of, I need to prove I’m a man, or I need to prove I’m strong, or I need to prove this or any of that other kind of stuff. It’s well, who are you really when you’re not pleasing when you’re not protecting, when you’re not proving, what’s naturally coming through you and as you in this lifetime. And then, and ultimately we want our relationships and our businesses to reflect that too. Yeah.

John Jantsch (04:04): Cuz you, you, you see, so often people chasing what they see people doing on Facebook or what they think a business should be, or, you know, top line revenue numbers, because that’s, you know, fun to go talk about, you know, with other people. And I think that probably gets in the way of true success, probably more than any other dynamic.

Tripp Lanier (04:20): I’ve worked with a lot of quote successful guys that, uh, are scratching their head, wondering where they went wrong. They feel trapped, they feel drained, they feel isolated. They feel bored, overwhelmed, chronically worried from the outside. It looks like they got it all together. I was a version of this, you know, after my first business and it’s, I, I, I propose in the book, maybe there’s another way for us to propo, to, you know, approach our work, to approach our professions in the world where we’re no longer looking to an external authority. Hey, tell me what to do or tell me how to measure up or tell me what hoops to jump through and start to ask some of those deeper questions and say, you know, I don’t know how much longer I’ve got on this planet. So how do I really wanna play?

John Jantsch (04:58): So you start your book off with, um, uh, part the title, of course. And I think it’s probably a word that merit’s defining, you know, what, what does it mean to be dangerous,

Tripp Lanier (05:07): Right? Yeah. What does it mean to be dangerous? Well, in our rather cushy modern world danger could be like, I, I can’t go a day without high speed internet. I can’t go right. Right. You know, like if you watch, how, how people get spun out about traffic or not have having internet, like I said, are not having their favorite, whatever. At, at the, at the coffee shop, we, we really do give up our peace of mind around these things. And so we’re starting to see how we’ve adapted. We’re no longer in any real danger to our survival per se, but that doesn’t mean that our nervous systems, aren’t still scanning for what we have now perceive to be as dangerous. And I, I would block that into three basic categories, something that threatens our sense of comfort, something that threatens our sense of safety or certainty, you know, to my time or energy or money. And then the third one, the big one is something that threatens my self image. I can’t look like a failure. I can’t look like a loser. What will they think of me? So by and large, when people come to me and they say, I’m not, I’m not having XYZ in my life. I’m not getting there. I know somewhere we’re gonna, we’re gonna come up against one of these three things. And that’s what they’re committed to. They’re committed to protecting their sense of comfort, their sense of certainty and their self image.

John Jantsch (06:15): You and I are recording this as in the first month of 2021. I, I mean, I would suggest that that COVID was a real wakeup for a lot of people in that regard. I mean, it, it, it showed them how comfortable they were, didn’t it?

Tripp Lanier (06:25): It did. It showed them how comfortable they were. I think we’re all dealing with. I mean, I’ve lost, lost a member of my family, very close member of my family just two weeks ago from COVID. So it’s, it’s not that we don’t have dangers in our world, but by and large, I think we’re starting to get a sense of perspective. And I’ve got a lot of people coming to me and saying, you know, CO’s put this in perspective. I’ve been playing small, I’ve been holding back. I don’t want to do that anymore. I’ve been using, I’ve been waiting for permission to show up as my biggest self. I’ve been waiting for, you know, something to come along and gimme the green light to make this shift in my business. I’m tired of waiting. Want to go for it now,

John Jantsch (07:00): Do, do you find that folks that you work with in some ways, um, if they’re feeling stuck, it’s that they’re too comfortable. I mean, and, and I guess the flip side of that question, or the second part of that question is, do you suggest that, that we have to actually look for ways to sort of intentionally, you know, stimulate that uncomfortable, uh, gene?

Tripp Lanier (07:18): No, I wanna be really clear. I I’ve worked with some pretty out. I’ve worked with some outliers. I mean, I’m special operatives, Navy seals, you know, people that, that work in, in really intense situations, I’m not, I don’t consider myself one of those people. I really enjoy being comfortable. I really enjoy a certain degree of, of, of safety and certainty. Certainly like looking good. So I’m not one of these people that needs to like go the other direction and, and be out of balance in that way. Look, I’ll, I’ll prove to the world that I, I really am tough and I, I’m not playing it small. I think, I think it’s really about getting smart and what’s worthwhile. And so when, when I start to have these conversations and I start to get in touch with help a guy get in touch with what he’s really trying to create in his lifetime.

Tripp Lanier (07:59): And then we start to see what his obstacles are. And we put him out in front of him. Most of the time, it’s like that, like that kid that comes in the room in the middle of the night says there’s a monster under the bed. And it’s like, well, let’s go grab a flashlight. And we go look, and there’s really nothing there. And they say, wow, I can’t believe I’ve been holding back because I was so afraid of this thing. And in that moment, they’re like, you know what? It’s just not worth. It’s not gonna be, be that bad. I’m, I’m willing to be a little bit uncomfortable here. I’m willing to take a little bit of a risk I’m willing who cares if somebody thinks I’m a little strange or a little weird if I go in that direction. And so a lot of it is them coming to terms with it themselves and saying, you know what, I’m just, I, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna be on my deathbed and be pleased that I played it so safe. I can take on a little bit of what seems dangerous.

John Jantsch (08:41): So I’ve been kind of, uh, this has been a soapbox topic for me of late. Um, a lot of stress has caused around this, this sort of monitoring, uh, mantra that we have to find our purpose and, you know, live our purpose. And I was kind of happy to see you pushing back a little bit on that, that, that, that idea of I’m gonna sit in a room one day and decide what I was meant to do. However, I do think a lot of people fall trapped to that. Don’t

Tripp Lanier (09:05): They? I do. I, I’m glad you brought this up. I see a lot of people get wrapped around the axle, especially guys that have maybe done well for themselves. And they’re starting to sense like, oh, okay, I can create money. I can create this sense of comfort and status, but there’s gotta be more meaning. And I think that that desire for more meaning is inherently a natural part of our development. Okay. It’s not just about meaning anymore. It’s about something bigger than me. And then they tend to look at this purpose thing. Well, my life must be lacking purpose. And so I say, well, what if purpose isn’t necessarily a thing we latch onto, right? My, my purpose in life isn’t to make sure that all puppies have healthy candy or , whatever it might be. But we, our egos tend

John Jantsch (09:48): To, that was a randomly specific, uh, example. They found

Tripp Lanier (09:52): I hear some weird things, but, but idea is that we go looking for a story. And I think most of the time when we’re looking for that story, it says, my purpose is X, Y, Z, it’s this outcome, it’s this cause that we’ve really lost touch with what that really means. That’s really just our ego looking for more kind of like I’m okay. And I’m important. We’re kind of moving up, moving up the ladder. And in that regard, when I say, well, if we were to really look at your choices in life, if we were to look at the purpose, the reason why you do these things, we’d start to see that you’re really most committed to being comfortable, to being certain and safe, to making sure that you look good. And then I’m much a, a different process that I work people through to help them start to see, well, what do you want beyond just those three things?

John Jantsch (10:36): Yeah. And I think, unfortunately, a lot of those, like you said, whatever it is that, that the mission that you’ve decided is gonna have impact. I mean, a lot of those have been defined by other people, as you know, that’s, that’s the stage I’m in now. That’s what I’m supposed to do.

Tripp Lanier (10:48): right. I’m supposed to start a foundation I’m supposed to, you know, do ABC in Africa, I’m supposed to do blah, blah, blah. And it doesn’t really connect with our, you know, at who we are. It just sounds Good.

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John Jantsch (12:00): So, um, there was a line I think it’s actually, I don’t think it’s a chapter title. I think it’s a subtitle that I really loved success is survival and drag.

Tripp Lanier (12:08): Yeah, I think it is. If you look at what most of us are caught all in success, it’s to become comfortable once and for all it’s to become safe or have to have certainty once and for all it’s to have status and prestige and to be away from, you know, to avoid any kind of criticism once and for all. And really that’s, what’s kind of what our survival is these days. I gotta always be comfort. I gotta always be certain. I gotta always look good. Nobody can criticize me. And I think it’s making this fragile. I I’ve met a lot of guys. I call ’em fragile, rich guys that, that get to this place. They have so much, so many resources, so many contacts. They know they wanna make this transition in life, but they’re so afraid to go backwards. It feels like death to them. It feels like a huge threat to survival if they were to change lanes or to leverage what they’ve created in order to move in this other direction. And so it’s like, well, what if it’s not death? But it does feel that way. It is our survival. It’s our sense of survival.

John Jantsch (13:05): So, so I’ve on my own business for 30 years. And, and by some people’s measure have, you know, have experienced some level of success. And, uh, I wrote a blog post, uh, one and, and it actually became part of my, in one of my, uh, uh, books as well, is that I think a lot of people are willing to tell you how to get to the top of mountain. Nobody tells you how to get back down. Um, and , and frankly, that’s where, you know, you, you, you look at the research, uh, descents of some of the, the, the, the largest mountains are where the most fatalities actually occur. Yeah. Um, more, more so than climbing to the peak. Um, and I think that, uh, you’re kind of touching on that a little bit. I think once people experience the level of that, there is that fear of, I can’t go backwards when maybe going backwards or what, what is seen is backwards is actually a, a, a better place.

Tripp Lanier (13:50): Yeah. I sold my first company, you know, 12 years after I started, I was still in my early thirties and it was one of the most nerve wracking times in my life. I remember being out in Hawaii and people like, wow, that’s amazing. You being able to do this. They’re like, please don’t ask me what I’m doing next. And there pressure of, okay, this self-imposed pressure. I need to, you know, level it up. I gotta really take it to the, I gotta do something the next level next time around. And I was so caught up in kind of the optics of it and who I was supposed to be and who I was supposed to become. It was nerve-wracking, it, it wasn’t a, a spacious place. It didn’t feel very comforting to me to be at that level. And nonetheless, you know, from around me, people like, wow, it’s awesome, man. Congratulations, ,

John Jantsch (14:33): You know, I’ve talked to enough entrepreneurs and heard a similar, uh, story to know that this is true, that, um, there’s a really common ma um, occurrence where an entrepreneur has that first time success sells whatever they do. And now they’ve got figured out. Right. And so now they’re gonna go really big and it’s that second one that teaches ’em humility, um, whether they come through it or not, you know, a lot of times, I mean, I have heard that so many times from, from entrepreneurs and, um, you know, and I’m not sure what the answer is. Um, let me ask you a quick question. How do you help people define success then for them on their own terms? I think it

Tripp Lanier (15:08): Comes back to, well, one of the exercises I lead people through, I said, you know, just tell me your, your biggest wildest, craziest goals that you got, or these dreams or these fantasies. And most of the time, these are the pictures, right? These are images. I would be in this house and my kids would be going to this school and they would have this and they would have that and write ’em all down. And it’s wonderful. And I say, you know, okay, great. Well, let’s imagine you got all of that. Yes. You made it all happen and you felt trapped. You felt drained, you felt isolated, you felt bored, or you felt overwhelmed or you chronically worried, would we, did we make it, did we get there? And they’re like, absolutely not. Are you kidding me? And I say, okay, well, what if the, you know, that image, that outcome, that kind of fantasy, isn’t what we’re really playing for.

Tripp Lanier (15:55): It’s the experiences that are opposite of that. So instead of trapped, we feel free. Instead of drained, we feel alive instead of isolated, we feel connected and loved deeply for who we are instead of bored, overwhelmed, worried, we feel peace of mind. And I say, you know, know what, no matter what, this is, what we’re playing for. And it might be way on the high, you know, we, it might be on the other side of these amazing goals could be something that you have access to today be. And it just, you’re thinking that’s in the way, but I said, let’s keep a MI, let’s keep an eye on those experiences as we go and know that no matter what, that’s what we want, because if you wouldn’t accomplished these amazing goals and you still felt really lousy, we messed up somewhere.

John Jantsch (16:36): So, so is a Stratocaster signed by Eric Clapton on your list?

Tripp Lanier (16:41): pro yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I’ll go with that.

John Jantsch (16:46): Listeners, can’t see that I’m, I’m seeing into trips, uh, um, yeah. Office there. And I think I see a Stratocaster over. I gotta

Tripp Lanier (16:53): Tell. Right. I, I got a STR over there though. Yeah. just tend to multiply, you know, it’s weird. They multiply in here. It’s uh

John Jantsch (17:03): So let me ask you if you’ve found the answer to this, why is it so often that what we say we believe and what we actually do? Um, don’t connect, you know, our actions and our beliefs don’t line up.

Tripp Lanier (17:18): Well, I, I think we’re inherently full of crap. I think there’s a, there’s just a big disconnect between the story we like to tell us about ourselves and then what we actually do. And I think if we just inherently understand that, like that there were flawed human beings that were flawed in our perception of reality, and I’ve seen others, you know, talk about this. Great. I think Jonathan height wrote a one has written wonderfully about, you know, that, that gap between what we say, and then what we actually do. It’s, it’s fascinating to understand how the mind operates in that way. It can be jarring to recognize that, to realize that, wow, we are really poor at, at even if we’re really hard on ourselves, we tend to miss the good that we do and all the, all the, the stuff that we move forward. So I think it’s, if you just know that we we’re, we’re terrible at assess our own worth positive or negative, it’s just starting there and then saying, okay, well, could I collect data either way? And then what’s really gonna move the needle. I’ve gotta define what that means in my life. And then focus more on that.

John Jantsch (18:20): Yeah. It’s funny. I work with so many entrepreneurs that, you know, they’re never satisfied. They’re never done. I mean, the horizon, you know, keeps moving away as they move forward. Um, and, and it, it, it is really hard sometimes to, uh, to think in terms of turning around and saying, oh, well, I guess we’ve actually come quite a ways too. ,

Tripp Lanier (18:37): You know, sometimes it’s a heart attack. Sometimes it’s a stroke or a divorce or a, a business breakup, but something breaks us out of that. Yeah. That pattern that we’re in there. And, and hopefully, I, I, you know, it can seem tragic at the time, but I’ve had a, a lot of guys look back and say, that was the, that was the moment I woke up. That was the gift.

John Jantsch (18:54): Yeah. So you talk about, um, this idea of having nothing to prove, um, as sort of an element of arriving, maybe, um, talk a little bit about that and, and forgive me if I’ve misquoted you, but I, you know, I, I, that really resonated with me because I, I see a lot of people that are really struggling or creating their own struggle a lot of times, because they’re trying to prove something. Um, and, and yet sort of the most confident people you run into a lot of times are ha uh, kind of devoid of that idea.

Tripp Lanier (19:25): Yeah. I think the first thing is, is like, I listen to the language. So if I’m working with somebody’s and they’re like, I’m so run down I’m so I’m so exhausted by this thing. Or I hate doing this thing. Okay, well then why are you doing, I have to, I have to, or this says, who, right. And then this is where we start to reveal this kind of imaginary audience. And it could be people that have passed away years ago could be, dad, could be, mom, could be relative, could be, I have had guys tell me it was the guys. They went to high school with that, cast them out, you know, it’s just whatever that is. It just gets embedded in their head. And they’re constantly playing to this audience constantly proving. And so I say, well, what if I’m not asking you to stop, but what if you didn’t have anything to prove to those, those folks anymore, even yourself.

Tripp Lanier (20:13): And it’s like, it’s, it can be jarring. It can be a little weird, a little strange at first, but you say, well, I would do this. I would do ABC. And it’s like, okay. And then as a coach, it’s like, well, what if we just did a little bit more like that? And we, and we start to see if everything really does fall apart and, and we can always go back. We can always go back to playing to this audience. But I think just that real is they start to find over time. Oh, that’s the thing I do. When I hear myself saying this language I have to, or I should, I’m playing to that crowd, that imaginary, you know, audience that I have something to prove to. And, uh, if we really wanna talk about freedom, most of them are striving to have freedom from that voice. Like one day they’re gonna have enough money and they’ll have finally proven that they’re enough. And, uh, usually it’s like, well, what if that moment’s right now? What if that moment is right here right now, when you stop giving a about what those folks think.

John Jantsch (21:05): Yeah. It’s amazing at how many, uh, um, wealthy, successful, accomplished, uh, adults, you know, still hear that seventh grade science teacher that told ’em they were never gonna amount to anything. ,

Tripp Lanier (21:16): , that’s probably why they’re so wealthy and so successful on the outside. And it’s just like, but they’ve been proving that guy wrong for so long now, you know, it’s kinda tab. Yeah.

John Jantsch (21:26): Tell us, tell us a little about your podcast. Um, uh, some of, uh, the, the format and who you have on and, uh, invite people obviously to listen.

Tripp Lanier (21:34): Yeah. The new man has been around for 13 plus years. Uh, we’ve had, gosh, we’ve had millions and millions of downloads over the years. Um, I, I’ve never identified myself as a podcast. I’ve always been a, a coach. And so I don’t really follow of the typical criteria of what podcasters do, but nonetheless, I’ve been really fortunate to have everyone from Tim Ferris to, you know, mark Manson, to Alan Alda, to, you know, big wave surfing, legend, Laird Hamilton, to musicians, to Zen, masters, to criminals, people have gone to jail. And what, what it’s like to do that I’m always looking for are those stories of people that have done things on their own terms or challenged the status quo and live to tell it right. Live to come back and, and tell that story. So, uh, I’m always looking for that, that story. It’s like, well, if that guy could do it, I probably could too.

Tripp Lanier (22:22): There’s something. And so I always like, I, I try to dig out the people that are just, you know, live two doors down for me and have done amazing in that story. Cuz I think we can look at the best selling author and be like, well, he’s made from something different, but right. That guy loses two doors down. If he can do it, then I can do it too. So I, I love those kinds of stories where it, it wakes us up and maybe has a see our own life and our own opportunities differently. So

John Jantsch (22:43): The podcast running for over a decade club is not that big. So, uh, congrats on that. Yeah. So, so tell people where they can find out to find, uh, more about your work. And then I’ll, I’ll also, uh, pick up a copy of this book will make you dangerous.

Tripp Lanier (22:58): Yeah. The new man is available everywhere. You get your podcasts. If you wanna learn more about the coaching work that I do, you can go to triplaner.com and then this book will make you dangerous, is available in all formats. And you can find that@dangerousbookstore.com, if you’re outside of the us, then just go to Amazon. Yeah.

John Jantsch (23:15): Awesome. Well then we’ll have links to all those things in the show notes. So Trevor, it was great catching up with you and I appreciate you stopping by the duct tape marketing podcast and uh, hopefully we’ll run into you someday. Uh, when we’re all back out there on the road. Sounds

Tripp Lanier (23:27): Good. Thank you. Appreciate it, John.

John Jantsch (23:31): All right. That wraps up another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. I wanna thank you so much for tuning in. Feel free to share this show. Feel free to give us reviews. You know, we love those things. Also. Did you know that we had created training, marketing training for your team? If you’ve got employees, if you’ve got a staff member that wants to learn a marketing system, how to install that marketing system in your business, check it out. It’s called the certified marketing manager program from duct tape marketing. You can find it at duct tape, marketing.com and just scroll down a little and find that tab that says training for your team.