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Give Your Marketing Strategy a Smart Upgrade

Give Your Marketing Strategy a Smart Upgrade written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Keith Lauver

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Keith Lauver, a seasoned entrepreneur, marketing strategist, and the founder of Atomic Elevator, the company behind Ella—an AI-powered marketing platform. Keith has helped launch over six companies and raised more than $34 million in product funding. In our conversation, we unpack the concept of High Definition Marketing and explore how AI is transforming traditional marketing strategy into a precise, scalable, and execution-ready system.

Keith challenges the “more is better” mindset of many digital marketing tools and explains how Ella was built to augment, not automate. The goal? Better marketing, not just more marketing. With a focus on enhancing the roles of both seasoned marketers and fractional CMOs, Ella becomes a smart, always-on marketing team member that brings brand messaging, customer journey mapping, and tactical execution into full alignment. For small businesses that often lack in-house resources, this new marketing framework can drive significant business growth and improve sales enablement across the board.

Key Takeaways:

  • AI marketing tools like Ella are not about automation—they’re about augmentation, helping teams produce better, more strategic work instead of just more content.

  • High Definition Marketing connects multiple frameworks—brand, customer journey, value proposition—into one cohesive system.

  • The Ella platform acts as a marketing team member, giving both experienced marketers and business owners a trained, responsive assistant that aligns execution with strategy.

  • Real-world use case: A premium bag company stuck in flat growth for a decade saw 20% revenue growth and a 40% boost in conversion rates after using Ella to redefine their marketing.

  • Fractional CMOs and marketing consultants can use Ella to deliver consistent, high-impact outcomes without scaling overhead.

  • Sales enablement is the next evolution, with Ella set to bridge marketing insights and sales execution for even deeper business integration.

Chapters:

  • 00:41 What is High Definition Marketing?
  • 01:59 How Has Marketing Strategy Changed?
  • 08:17 ELLA and DTM Partnership
  • 12:52 ELLA Elevates Your Marketing Team
  • 16:46 How are AI Tools Evolving?



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John Jantsch (00:00.968)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Keith Lover. He’s a serial entrepreneur and marketing strategist who has founded six companies, raised over 34 million in product launches. He’s the founder and CEO of Atomic Elevator, the company behind Ella, an AI powered marketing platform designed to bring clarity and structure to modern marketing through what he calls high definition marketing. So Keith, welcome to the show.

Keith Lauver (00:29.998)

Thanks so much, John.

John Jantsch (00:31.93)

So let’s jump to high definition marketing. How would you, how do you define that? mean, I think it sounds like kind of a fun term, but you know, how do you make that real?

Keith Lauver (00:43.672)

You know, marketing has historically been fuzzy. There are different people touching different parts of that proverbial elephant. So some people, like a branding person, looks at the marketing problem through their set of lens and the digital ads person looks at it through their lens. And each person through the system basically is touching a different part. And what we said, first of all, is

Let’s clear that up and let’s define that. So point number one is we need to say what’s in there. And that’s essentially these interconnected frameworks that say, here’s who customers are. Here’s what a brand is. Here’s what value looks like. Here’s what a customer journey is. These are all frameworks that have existed. For goodness sake, John, you invented some of the classic ones that have been a big proponent of putting them all together. What we did was simply codify that. So step one is to say, these are the frameworks.

And then step two is to, within each of those documents, define them with precision. So we think that’s what gives you the high definition. It’s more pixels, but it’s also more colors. So it’s more vibrant.

John Jantsch (01:52.762)

So as I listened to you explain that, mean that 20 years ago, I would have said that’s the definition of marketing strategy. So, so, so how have we changed? you know, is it really just technology has changed how we’re able to view that?

Keith Lauver (01:59.82)

Yeah, right.

Keith Lauver (02:09.208)

I think there were proponents of this idea 20 years ago, like yourself, there were practitioners of it 20 years ago who said, yes, we need to do this. But what’s happening in this moment is now it can become even more accessible and even more defined. And so at least speaking for myself, I didn’t even understand the importance of all of these different frameworks and title about a decade ago. And keeping all of them in my mind,

while I was doing work on behalf of a client, even as I was starting to get training in them, even as I began to apply them, it’s just an extraordinarily heavy lift. I’m a limited human, right? And so one of the things that’s radically changed this is AI’s ability to come alongside and help us keep all of those frameworks in mind at all times and help us define this at a much higher degree of precision than what we could have done at least without teams of people and months of time.

John Jantsch (03:07.646)

So it’s really easy. lot of people are doing this today to lump a lot of these AI tools together. know, chat GPT, I like it better than Claude, but they do the same thing. You know, that, that kind of conversation you’re hearing all the time right now, or worse in my mind, the 50 AI tools that every agency needs to use. How do you, when somebody, when you start explaining Ella as an AI tool to somebody, how do you.

get out of that characterization of, it’s just another chat GPT. I know you’ve talked about it as marketing team in a box or, you know, a complete marketing system, a team member. mean, what, what, how do you differentiate, you know, how, how dramatically different Ella is than say the blank screen of chat GPT.

Keith Lauver (03:54.412)

Yeah.

Well, let’s first start with what our objective was when we designed Ella. Most AI tools have an objective of trying to automate. And we said automation just produces more, and more is often more noise, more junk. And we don’t think the world needs more. We started with an objective of producing better. We said, let’s build a tool that augments, that doesn’t automate.

So the first point is we want to honor and elevate those that are doing this work, whether they’re a career marketer or somebody on a marketing team at a business, we want to help them do better work, not just more stuff. And that really provides kind of a fundamental difference, Within, yeah, go ahead. Well, I should say within the world of more, there are things that are also, you know, chat GPT, because it doesn’t have any context about marketing, it’s just trying to take

John Jantsch (04:38.632)

And now I’ve also, okay, good enough, go ahead and finish that.

Keith Lauver (04:52.002)

the center point, it’s the average of everything. So the biggest design flaw, know, after you recognize, gosh, this thing’s just trying to produce more, now it’s going to produce more average stuff. And we think that’s really where the big opportunity is. So we came in and said, you deserve to be exceptional, not average. We came in and tuned an AI system to the craft of marketing. We trained it on these specific frameworks and the business rules that supported it.

And then we let marketers actually teach Ella about each individual brand with thousands of pages of instructions for goodness sake, so that the work product that gets out of there really does let people be different and better and shine.

John Jantsch (05:37.0)

put you on the spot a little bit. Do you, do you, there a real world, kind of use case that you like to submit as here’s what they did and you know, here’s how much better life is for them.

Keith Lauver (05:44.45)

Yeah.

I love telling this story of one of my favorite brands that I first encountered as a customer. It’s a company called Red Ox and they make these beautiful bags in Montana, handmade here. They’re durable. Former military parachute rigger got the idea for this some 30 years ago and he’s been making this high quality product. His brand had languished for the last decade. Sales had been flat for much of that time. It never really broken through a barrier.

And he signed up for Ella. Ella and a chief marketing officer of Fractional CMO came in and together looked at his entire data, looked at his website, helped him think about his business differently, defined this out in high definition. kind of the punchline is rewrote his entire copy, rebuilt all of his brand assets, rewrote his emails, his social posts. And now we’re getting about 20 % growth.

on the business. Every visitor that’s coming to that landing page is converting at a 40 % greater rate. Shopping cart value is significantly higher. This wouldn’t have happened if we know it because for 10 years he’d been stuck if it hadn’t been for Ella. So it works.

John Jantsch (07:03.506)

Yeah. And I love that too, for a lot of reasons. First off, it’s not a startup. I mean, this is somebody that’s been around. And I think that in some ways having those assets, you know, allows you to analyze those assets and analyze sales and analyze customer data. But the other thing I like about it is, you know, I’ve taken a look at, you shared that with me before and I’ve taken a look at their website. There’s not cheap. I mean, that’s a premium product, you know, premium brand. And sometimes those are harder to sell.

from a website without like that perfect messaging, aren’t they?

Keith Lauver (07:37.716)

Absolutely true. We’ve got to gather attention or grab that attention and then we’ve got to convert that into action. And those are two different things. know, Google can get us in front of somebody if we’re willing to pay the right amount of money, but ultimately people understanding why am going to pay more for this bag and how is this brand going to show up? Frankly, I think what had happened in a way is their company had almost become like a chat GPT.

They had been the average of everything. They took all their ideas over the last 20 years and were just blending them into this muted gray brand that wasn’t engaging. And so this reactivated, re-energized, and has now set them on a totally different path.

John Jantsch (08:20.616)

So as you know, have said, I don’t know, I’ve lost track. I’m going to go with 1,274 times. I have said, strategy before tactics, you know, trying to explain the idea that you don’t just go out and start doing stuff, you know, without like, who are we doing it for? What do we want them to believe about us? You know, all those things. so we have my entire body of work or life’s work has been about helping people understand strategy. with the shifts going on in AI, I find myself saying,

Keith Lauver (08:27.95)

Thank

John Jantsch (08:50.386)

Same idea, but now people are just grabbing the technology tools as tactics. so strategy before technology, certainly as something that, that is an evolution, I guess, of that same idea, with that in mind. and I don’t know that you’ve announced this to a whole lot of people, but duct tape marketing and atomic elevator Ella, have formed a partnership to, to be kind of that one to punch of.

No matter what this tool is, if it’s not developed strategically, it’s bound or it’s likely, I should say, to fail. So you want to talk a little bit about your thoughts on the collaboration between Ella’s capabilities and the Duct Tape marketing community.

Keith Lauver (09:33.196)

Yeah, I mean, first, I could not be more excited about the fact that we can take this body of work, this OG status, as my teenage kid would probably call it, that you hold in the world of kind of marketing operating systems. That could be, and we could ask Gala for the very latest rendition of that. But you really define system. You really taught.

John Jantsch (09:46.546)

No, I’m sure he’d probably tell you OG is so old school. Nobody says that anymore,

Keith Lauver (10:01.342)

so many generations of marketers how to actually do this at a higher level. And now we can leverage and really supercharge Ella with that knowledge in there. So first of all, thank you. We cannot be more excited to take your knowledge and add that to the corpus in here so that Ella can continue to set people apart.

John Jantsch (10:21.236)

Well, our initial conversations, you know, with the market out there, there’s a lot of hunger for this idea because there’s definitely a lot of people hyping AI tools as the savior and, you know, fire your whole team and, and just run your business with this. I do, you know, my MO has always been, you know, is, it practical? How can it actually help me do what I was already doing better? And so, you know, for us, I think that the time has really come that

You know, this idea of, of, of bringing a team member, think, I think every business in, I don’t know, a year or two years is going to, to, to really mainstream this idea of AI team members. It’s going to be a part of how the world works and how we function today. So we’re obviously very excited to bring a very practical solution. That’s word I always love to use, you know, to people that, cuts through the hype and isn’t based on, you know,

science fiction is just based on where the world is really going and how companies can actually get the right message out, which allows them to do more good in the world. Quite frankly, that’s the way I’ve always felt about helping small businesses is that’s the backbone of the world. And if this is a way that we can bring a platform that makes sense in a framework that still allows us as marketers to

do what we’ve always fundamentally done for good in the world, then we’re obviously very excited about it as well.

Keith Lauver (11:53.006)

I love the fact that we share that mission and as I think about what you just described there, you strategy first There’s a story that comes to my mind about five years ago There was a business that I had done a full strategy workup for I thought through all those things that you taught about the importance of getting this clear and defined and Last year I called that CEO and said how’s it going? Are you using that that we put together?

And he said, oh, to be honest, I forgot you even had it. And so I think that gap, right, between strategy and execution, between knowing and doing, is still large for many organizations. And one of the things that I’m most excited about in this partnership is with your knowledge in there, we can build the very best strategic framework, and we can actually support the tactical planning and execution, the downstream work. When you ask Ella to write

John Jantsch (12:23.796)

I

John Jantsch (12:27.593)

Yeah.

Keith Lauver (12:50.49)

a script for a podcast or to write a page for a landing page or to craft a social media strategy. She’s going to do that always and consistently aligned with that strategy that duct tape taught us is so important.

John Jantsch (13:04.945)

Yeah. One of the things that we’re already seeing, I think it’s going to be a selling point, quite frankly, for folks is that this is, we develop strategy same way for a lot of times. And we’ve always had kind of a teaching mentality about it. So we’re trying to teach the owners and their teams about marketing strategy as much as just develop it for them. And I’m very excited because I think this tool will be…

Keith Lauver (13:06.062)

Thank

John Jantsch (13:30.408)

like installing a very trained team member in the organization that’s actually going to up level, whoever’s there today, as well. I think that, that from a business owner standpoint, they’re not just getting a technology or a software, they’re actually getting training, for their entire team. And that, that’s really a, an aspect that, you know, one, one of the challenges with most business owners is they really, they hire some marketers, but they don’t really know.

Keith Lauver (13:33.517)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:59.484)

what to tell them to do, how to do it necessarily. So they’re kind of left to their own devices. I think this gives, guardrails is the wrong term. It’s really more, this gives them a very informed advisor that’s going to help them do their job.

Keith Lauver (14:14.318)

You know, we tried to take the brains of 100 of the very best marketers that we knew and that wanted to build the same system, get those mapped in there so that anybody could at a moment’s notice and in an unlimited way, tap in and ask them, how should I think about SEO in today’s zero click world? How can I think about creating a message that breaks through in today’s tariff heavy environment?

John Jantsch (14:34.377)

Yeah.

Keith Lauver (14:40.706)

those kind of things. And I love the way you just described that. We had an agency that shared back with us the fact that their very favorite feature in Ella is actually nothing that we promote, but it’s what you just identified. The fact that we are up-skilling on a daily basis, everybody on their team. And they said their team is doing twice as good of marketing in six months after using Ella than before. And that’s really due to…

the brains and the generosity of others who said, let’s come behind and contribute this knowledge into a system.

John Jantsch (15:12.274)

Yeah. I mean, you think, sad to say, but it’s very, very typical. know, a lot of times marketing is, is an afterthought for a lot of businesses. And so consequently the qualification for hiring their first marketer was age. They were young. They understand all this social media stuff. And so, you know, to be able to actually now equip them, just as you said, with basically.

Keith Lauver (15:25.397)

Yes, that’s right.

John Jantsch (15:35.538)

the brains without having to read all the books, you know, all of these frameworks, you know, is an amazing, you know, training tool. again, I know that we are going to certainly position it very much as that because I, again, I think there is a real temptation for it to get lumped in as software. And I think it’s so much more.

Keith Lauver (15:56.824)

You know, I love the implication of that in two respects. One is the fact that we have experienced marketers and I don’t want this message to be misunderstood out there. Experienced marketers can actually operate so much better if they can quickly tap into the brains of these other folks that are inside Ella, largely because they know the question to ask. And that’s where wisdom and experience comes from.

The rookie, if you will, that person that’s new in his or her career may not have done marketing before, can also quickly get in and begin to deliver value. So there’s actually benefit to both the very experienced and the very new. The people to whom we’ll never accrue benefits for are those that sit on the sideline and are afraid. And we also talk to those. This is disruptive.

John Jantsch (16:41.832)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it’s interesting. mean, I, I use it every day, some form of tool and, know, I, but I think of it more as a thought partner. just as you, you know, kind of it’s about the questions and it’s about challenging it to say, well, why is that a good answer? You know, as opposed to, as opposed to say, write me this thing. Yeah. No. So we’ve been talking about practical today. but as you know, this landscape is changing dramatically.

Keith Lauver (17:03.362)

Yes. Love that.

John Jantsch (17:11.716)

where do you see AI tools like LL evolving to support marketers and businesses, you know, a year from now? I don’t know. I’m afraid to look past that.

Keith Lauver (17:20.686)

Yeah, no, I know it’s so hard to predict what is happening, but I can tell you that the things that we’re working on on our roadmap are things like continuously training Ella to do more and better things. And so an example would be as tactics change on social media in 2025 or tactics change in SEO because of AI and what’s happening with zero click, there are implications and new training and system and

essentially frameworks that we can be building into Ella. So the first point is we want Ella to continue to be smarter. But the second thing is I think we’re going to see a lot more and we’re committed to investing in the integration of these tools. Ella also can’t exist as a silo. Ella is part of a system, but maybe a business uses HubSpot or maybe they use MailChimp. Either way, they still need to get emails out there. So we see connectivity. The final thing I’ll mention is sales is also connected.

John Jantsch (17:56.956)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (18:06.014)

Yeah. Yeah.

Keith Lauver (18:20.056)

to this world of marketing, right? It’s a gray area where that line is. And as we start to think about that.

John Jantsch (18:21.81)

Yeah. Well, in a correct scenario, that’s true. It’s often not the reality, but yes.

Keith Lauver (18:28.45)

Yeah, okay. Well, fair enough. So what we want to do is try to find ways to support both sales and marketing to automate the attention gathering to maybe support salespeople. But essentially you’ll see more from Ella in terms of sales enablement and sales support as well coming forward.

John Jantsch (18:49.414)

Awesome. Awesome. Beautiful. Well, you know, one of the things that we’ve had a lot of fun doing is, taking sales, transcripts, recording, sales calls. and, really using that, to help with messaging to certainly to help with training, you know, but also it’s like, here, here’s, you know, out of 40 sales calls, you know, 23 people mentioned these three things. Maybe we ought to be talking about those more. And so I, I definitely see a world where, you know, that sales enablement,

Keith Lauver (19:11.362)

Yes.

John Jantsch (19:18.241)

can really be impacted by AI tools.

Keith Lauver (19:21.144)

for sure and being able to then like I do take every call that I have with somebody put it into Ella and have Ella recast back the value that she heard and not just have the knowledge of what that problem was but talk about how she solves that problem for somebody. Boy, that’s given me a lot of scale so I can have two or three more calls and make sure I do my follow-up every day as well.

John Jantsch (19:42.802)

Yeah, great. Great for training that next person that needs to come along and do business development as well. Yeah. Well, Keith, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing podcast again. We will have, you can see this as being an ongoing conversation with our partnership and listeners out there. will definitely have more information about ways that.

Keith Lauver (19:47.086)

Yeah.

Keith Lauver (19:54.786)

Gosh.

John Jantsch (20:08.914)

that we can expose you to, this, whether you’re an agency that wants this for your clients, or if you’re a business owner out there saying an AI team member training with duct tape marketing strategy and this, this robust tool sounds like the way of the future for my business marketing. We’d love to talk with you as well. Is there anywhere you’d invite people to connect with you, Keith?

Keith Lauver (20:33.87)

For sure. Just please visit www.atomegelevator.com and we have free trials that are available. Mention that you found us on this podcast and we’ll also be sure that you have first access to this duct tape marketing edition that we could not be more excited about. So John, thanks for leading the way. Thanks for partnering with us to make marketing better and faster and more impactful for these amazing businesses that we get the privilege of serving out there.

John Jantsch (21:01.62)

Well, appreciate you spending some time and hopefully we’ll see you soon out there on the road again.

Keith Lauver (21:07.114)

Excellent. Look forward to it. Take care.


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Why AI Isn’t Replacing You—It’s Freeing You

Why AI Isn’t Replacing You—It’s Freeing You written by Jarret Redding read more at Duct Tape Marketing

The Duct Tape Marketing Podcast with Keith Lauver

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Keith Lauver, a serial entrepreneur, product launch expert, and founder of Atomic Elevator—an AI-powered marketing company behind Ella, a high-definition marketing platform. With six startups and over $34 million in product launches under his belt, Keith brings a sharp, practical lens to how AI can be used to transform marketing and business operations—especially for small business owners and agencies.

During our conversation, Keith broke down the real-world applications of AI marketing and how it’s not here to replace people—but to remove bottlenecks, automate repetitive tasks, and unlock creativity. By shifting the way we think about tools like ChatGPT and agent-based workflows, Keith challenges small businesses to stop treating AI like search and start viewing it as a team of collaborators. He also shares how his own company operates without a traditional org chart—thanks to the power of strategic marketing tools and automation.

Whether you’re leading a team, launching a new product, or running a solo consultancy, this episode offers a practical look at how AI and marketing automation can help you grow smarter, leaner, and more focused.

Key Takeaways:

  • AI is an amplifier, not a replacement. It removes low-value tasks so entrepreneurs can focus on strategy, creativity, and relationships.
  • Small businesses are underusing AI tools. Many still treat AI like a search engine instead of leveraging its full potential for automation and productivity.
  • High-definition marketing creates clarity. Tools like Ella reduce “fuzzy” marketing by integrating proven marketing frameworks and better data.
  • Agent-based AI is coming. The future involves task-specific agents collaborating in workflows—streamlining execution across teams.
  • Forget the org chart. Keith’s company operates around tasks, not job titles—powered by AI and fractional expertise.
  • Personalization needs data. AI in business thrives when it can access behavior, style, and preferences—delivering truly tailored content.
  • AI unlocks your superpower. By automating what you’re not great at, it helps you focus on the work that energizes you and drives business growth.

Chapters:

  • [00:09] Introducing Keith Lauver
  • [01:52] Understanding the Practical Uses of AI
  • [04:17] What are AI Agents?
  • [07:45] How Does AI Affect Organizational Structure
  • [11:46] AI Doesn’t Change Human Value
  • [16:22] Personalized Marketing
  • [17:37] Ella AI
  • [21:22] Privacy Concerns with AI

More About Keith Lauver: 

Check out Keith Lauver’s Website
Connect with Keith Lauver on LinkedIn

This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by

Want to elevate your marketing game? AdCritter pairs Connected TV ads with precise digital retargeting to drive real results. Discover how their full-funnel strategy can help your business grow smarter. Let them know Duct Tape Marketing sent you, and you’ll get a dollar-for-dollar match on your first campaign! Learn more at adcritter.com.

 



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John Jantsch (00:00.923)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Keith Lover. He is a serial entrepreneur and marketing expert who has founded six companies, raised over $34 million for product launches and now leads Atomic Elevator. His team specializes in product launch support and created Ella, a pioneering tool for high-definition marketing.

He started his entrepreneurial journey at 14. He secured clients like Trader Joe’s, Whole Foods, and inspires others as a speaker and mentor. We were just talking about it. He lives in Red Lodge, Montana, active community in community service through Young Life. So Keith, welcome to the show.

Keith Lauver (00:44.526)

Thanks so much, John. Good beer.

John Jantsch (00:46.172)

So what did you do at 14?

Keith Lauver (00:48.026)

my gosh. So I had the opportunity to, build a software platform for an airport in Billings. was painting pipes in the summer and they found out I knew something about computers. And during the regular smoke break time, I started creating a database to keep track of the paper towels and other inventory got invited upstairs. That turned into an invitation to build the software.

John Jantsch (00:56.883)

Ha

John Jantsch (01:09.907)

Ha

Keith Lauver (01:14.862)

And apparently KPMG had offered him a bid for about $20,000. I said I’ll do it for two and they took it. So that was the very first commercial client I had.

John Jantsch (01:26.547)

Well, I think I started my first business when was 16. It was not nearly as glamorous. I was going door to door convincing people to let me seal their driveway. I paid my way through high school and college doing similar things.

Keith Lauver (01:32.723)

my gosh.

Keith Lauver (01:38.016)

That’s.

Keith Lauver (01:44.072)

I think the idea of asphalt going down and paint going up, we do what we have to do. I just caught a lucky break that day, right?

John Jantsch (01:47.347)

So we, we’re going to talk about, AI a lot today. I think, it’s a hot topic. It’s probably the hottest topic going right now. I, have, in fact, I’ve started a group I call practical AI for marketing. because I think it’s just a lot of, with any technology, there’s all this futuristic talk of what it can do.

or what it, you know, is going to do someday. And I really liked always bring it down to, okay, that’s great, but what should it do? So in terms of, of your conversations with smaller businesses, how do you help them see the practical uses of AI and not sort of the robots running the world, you know, future.

Keith Lauver (02:25.271)

Yeah

Keith Lauver (02:40.046)

You know, one of things that I like to do is separate the application side of things from the construction side of things. And I think there’s a lot of people that are confused about that, John. think, you know, I’m reminded of a workshop that was being done for business owners in Montana a couple of weeks ago, and they brought in a prompt engineer and machine learning expert for the day to teach them how to do stuff that most of them really didn’t care about and frankly didn’t understand.

John Jantsch (03:06.557)

Right?

Keith Lauver (03:08.738)

that that was what was going to be the topic. So don’t think people even know what this beast called AI is. So there’s people who are building tools and then there’s people who are actually using tools. And those two probably need to be separated before I could even answer the next part of your question.

John Jantsch (03:25.029)

Yeah. Well, first off, then let’s back up a little bit. What percentage of businesses, business owners, people working for businesses, do you think are actually using even a simple interface like chat GPT?

Keith Lauver (03:37.888)

I think every business owner I’ve talked to has at least experimented with and tried chat GPT. When we take forms on our website, we ask them how frequently are they using it? And I would say that probably a quarter of them aren’t using it more than once a week. And that’s surprising to me. They still haven’t found that thing. And if I might offer a hypothesis about why, I think we are used to something like Google where

John Jantsch (03:55.847)

Yeah, yeah.

Keith Lauver (04:06.978)

You type in a search and a computer gives an answer. And AI’s potential is so much different than that. But most people are sitting down and thinking about this as a search tool and maybe a little bit smarter search tool. And they’re just not sure what’s beyond that even at the application layer.

John Jantsch (04:25.757)

So one of the things that, I don’t know, I, you you talked about bringing in this, large language model expert to talk about things and like that just goes nowhere with the business owners. So I’m going to bring up agents, which, know, maybe we have to kind of break down a little bit, but that’s one of the areas where people are like the future’s coming. You’re going to have, you know, agents replacing all of your people. We don’t actually have agents yet. Not really.

because there’s a lot of things that I think are going to happen, over, mean, I think we’re going to have some simple task bots. but, but, but the one that people throw out, tell your agent to book me the best ticket on this flight, you know, blah, blah, blah. Well, they’ve got to have access to all the data, all the airline things. And those people aren’t going to share that information. Or if they do some big tech company, it’ll be the one that does the interface and we’ll just be a product of theirs like Facebook.

Keith Lauver (05:20.994)

Okay.

John Jantsch (05:23.973)

and not, not a user. talk, I just went and rambled all over the place there, but talk a little bit about, you know, the, the, where we are now with agents, what agents are, guess, where we are now and really what is going to be a hurdle to this large scale adoption.

Keith Lauver (05:41.516)

Yeah. So as I understand and use agents, they basically are bots, you will, programs that can perform a discrete task and do so in repetition and kind of string those tasks, perhaps one to another, to another. And instead of like right now, if you sit down and chat GPT and say, Hey,

John Jantsch (05:49.203)

you

Keith Lauver (06:02.926)

you know, can you give me input about a story or can you review this website and tell me the pros and the cons of it or whatever the query might be, an agent can actually do something that’s much more complex and a series of steps. So it might be, can you build me an entire website? Right? And step one is this and step two is this and step three, I think where agents are today,

John Jantsch (06:18.621)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Keith Lauver (06:27.538)

is still very much in the experimental world. I love the fact that as a company that’s created a platform, we now can begin to move our entire architecture into what they’re calling agentic. So we’re able to take what we were finding other ways of doing and we can now do it better and easier because most of the things that we need to have done are complex and require more than one step and agents will help us do that.

John Jantsch (06:40.883)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (06:53.757)

Yeah, no, there’ll be a lot of stringing these things together too, right? You complete this task and then go give your output to this agent who then has been trained to do X, right? I mean, is that kind of another way to look at it?

Keith Lauver (06:57.55)

for sure.

Keith Lauver (07:02.487)

Yeah.

I love that vision, John, that really interoperability of agents. It’s like, why not have the thing that’s really good at X talk to the other thing that’s really good at Y and talk to the other thing that’s really good at Z. In the field of marketing, of the analog metaphor, if you will, would be the branding person who just is the wizard in the marketing world, right? They’re able to just say, this is the emotional state that we’re going to evoke for people.

John Jantsch (07:12.179)

Right.

John Jantsch (07:31.123)

Mm-hmm.

Keith Lauver (07:34.254)

pontificate on that. And then you’ve got the designer who tries to interpret that. And then you’ve got the copywriter who actually puts words to it. And then you’ve got the HTML person who has to construct it. And then maybe you’ve got somebody that needs to be the messaging architect that’s thinking about it. And then the performance person, we get all these different things. Wouldn’t it be great if those could all be strung together?

John Jantsch (07:56.731)

Yeah. And I think that’s a, maybe that’s a little bit of the dilemma of how people, when they’re thinking about embracing AI in general is that, you know, one, one vision I’ve seen is, the org chart that has maybe those, those analog managers, if you will, is that what we’re to call people now? Analog managers. but that, but then each of those people will have three agents that help them do their function.

Keith Lauver (08:14.83)

I hope so.

John Jantsch (08:24.371)

and they’ve all been maybe specifically trained on a thing, but then I’ve also seen people say, no, we’re going to have, we’re going to have the data analysis agent. That’s going to go across department. you know, how do you, how do you see the org chart of the future?

Keith Lauver (08:39.266)

You know, I think, the org chart of the future is probably going to be as diverse as organizations of the future. think models, what’s beautiful about what’s happening in this world is the models can be completely novel. can create things that have never before been seen. An example is, you know, we have been building our go-to-market plans using our software itself. We haven’t needed really a marketing department. even haven’t had to do.

John Jantsch (08:40.305)

Peace.

John Jantsch (08:56.466)

Yes.

Keith Lauver (09:08.352)

advertising in a traditional way. Most of our team is fully fractional and we can all cooperate and actually perform at a much higher level for a lot less money. And I don’t even know what an org chart is. We had a potential investor asked us to build one and I’m like, we haven’t, we don’t even have one for our company. It’s just not the way we operate. We kind of collect around tasks and bring expertise to those tasks and then perform those tasks.

So it’s just a very different organizational model that we’ve chosen. And I think there’s a lot of freedom in how people are going to build the company.

John Jantsch (09:43.827)

But see, I hear an org chart in there. It’s just way different than anything we’ve been taught. So I think it’s still, because an org chart to me is not people doing jobs. An org chart is what functions need to be done. And so I think that’s kind of what you’re describing, but we’re all just used to this is our head of that and this is our VP of that. And I think that that whole, that’s what’s interesting about it. think what’s going on is it’s not just like,

Keith Lauver (09:48.878)

Yeah, yeah.

Keith Lauver (09:57.516)

Ooh, I love that. Different, yeah.

John Jantsch (10:13.405)

How do we augment what we’re already doing? It’s how do we rethink everything, right?

Keith Lauver (10:18.772)

I love the freedom. think the moment, when we accidentally discovered this idea that turned into this platform for marketing, call Ella, when this was not an intentional discovery, it was pure accident. And in that moment, every single neuron in my brain fired every pattern from that 14 year old kid who wrote the software for that airport and Billings to the guy who’d been a student of marketing for the last decade fired and said, wait a minute.

I can do this differently now and I can ask this question in this way and get a completely different perspective than the old model was go to the expert. If we invert and put all the experts into a model, it shifts and everything changes. And I’m addicted to that innovation. So I think it’s wonderful.

John Jantsch (11:07.633)

Yeah. Yeah. So, one of the certainly themes that is prevalent is that this technology is going to replace a lot of people. mean, every technology does, right? I mean, or at least changes, you know, what those people do. Where do you fall on kind of the, it’s going to revolutionize industries, replace a lot of people, augment, you know, lot of the value we can bring. I mean, where do you fall on that?

Keith Lauver (11:20.814)

you

John Jantsch (11:37.867)

continue.

Keith Lauver (11:39.342)

So yes, yes, and yes. I do think that AI is going to transform, to augment, to replace. But I don’t think that changes our sense of self. I don’t think that changes our value of fact. If anything, for me, what it’s done is created more freedom around that. I talked to so many people on our team. We’re avid minute by minute users of AI.

John Jantsch (11:41.391)

Yeah, OK.

John Jantsch (11:50.034)

Yeah.

Keith Lauver (12:08.974)

We’re more confident in what we can do and in the gifts that we’ve been created to bring to the world because we augment the things that maybe we’re not as good at. I’m a visionary, I’m not an integrator. So I see big ideas and when you ask me to actually turn that into a you know, a set of sequential steps, I just, my brain hurts. I don’t like that work and I don’t have to do that work anymore. So.

John Jantsch (12:13.939)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (12:35.795)

Yeah. Peace.

Keith Lauver (12:36.246)

I think it’s not replacing people, but it’s replacing some of the things that we as people have done. And what that does is gives us the freedom to go back to what is our zone of genius? What is our superpower? What is it that we love to do? And I don’t think AI will ever replace humanity. I think it’s just bringing us up to be the very best versions of ourselves.

John Jantsch (12:41.317)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (12:57.395)

Well, it’s interesting because I certainly, I’ve always, you know, from a marketing standpoint, we’ve, our monitor has always been strategy before tactics. Um, and I think that in a lot of ways that makes the strategic thinker who can also master AI, who also understands marketing operations. That’s the job of the future, isn’t it? As opposed to the agency that comes in and does the stuff.

Keith Lauver (13:22.06)

I think that’s right. I would say our focus has actually been trying to go in and provide even greater effectiveness and efficiency for the strategists. And so because of that, I see a world where AI can actually do a lot of the strategy when well-guided and augmented by humans through that. I would say for me, as I’ve contemplated kind of my own work shift in the last, say, year, most of my time is now relational.

And that can’t ever be replaced by AI. Most of my time is getting to understand people and their problems and then finding a way to bring that in. But I’m not spending time on strategies so much as I am building relationships that allow my tools to build that strategy. So I think that’s a higher level.

John Jantsch (14:12.413)

Yeah.

Well, there’s such a, even though it’s more one-to-one, there is such a brand aspect to that. There is such a trust aspect to that. And I think that those are the things that are really going to allow the, if there’s going to be winners and losers, I think people that get that, think are going to side on the win.

Keith Lauver (14:23.063)

Ooh, I love that. Yeah.

Keith Lauver (14:33.326)

You know what I love about what you said there too is just kind of reminds me of the benefit to AI in getting us out of ourselves that if we’re going to be able to establish trust, one of the ways that I do this today that I did in 12 months ago is I talk about the fact that I run everything I do through a blind spot and a bias detector. I run everything I do through the lens of our software.

that can look at 100 different marketing people’s perspectives. And that actually increases my trustworthiness, my credibility with somebody because I’m actually admitting my own limitations.

John Jantsch (15:05.811)

Mm-hmm.

John Jantsch (15:16.339)

Yeah, yeah, that’s one of my favorite prompts is like, what should I be asking you? Or what am I not asking you? You know, that kind of thing, you know, or, or I sometimes have to say, stop agreeing with me. That’s a brilliant idea.

Keith Lauver (15:24.43)

Yeah.

Yes. I like to think that my AI is sometimes a little bit too puppy-like. You know, it just wants to wag its tail and say, yes, Keith, I love you. Will you rub my belly? It’s like, yeah. Exactly. It’s like, no, no, no. Or even when I ask AI to be to go do something and the end result, if I say, is this biased? And she says, yes. I’m like, well, why did you do that in that way in the first place? So.

John Jantsch (15:54.021)

Right. So, so, I have one more question, but I really do want, we haven’t, I want to spend some time on what you’re doing specifically with Ella because it relates to everything we’re talking about. But, one of the things that, anybody who says the five things that are coming this year, you know, personalization in marketing is, certainly a buzzword that’s going to be on that list all the time. is, is, and it seems AI can help that.

But I also don’t see a lot of people doing it yet. And is the real missing ingredient is it can’t personalize without access to data.

Keith Lauver (16:33.304)

think that’s a great insight. think I would challenge how much data we can give it access to. would say in general, I’ll give you an example. I love what there’s a tool called Crystal Nose has done, which is they’ve used AI to go, you know, essentially determine somebody’s personality. And that gives you a degree of personalization to present information in a particular style. So for example, anytime I do a sales follow-up,

I run it first through Crystal and I have Ella rewrite it to that person’s disc profile. And that gives me a level of personalization that’s not just this was the conversation we had, but this is who you are and how you probably prefer to receive information. So I think we’re getting closer to it.

John Jantsch (17:17.169)

Yeah. Yeah. And it might just be bullet points and short sentences as opposed to, you know, necessarily, hi, John. Exactly. Right. Right. So talk a little bit about Ella. If somebody came to you and said, what’s Ella?

Keith Lauver (17:26.321)

Yes. Exactly. These are the three things we talked about. Sign here.

Keith Lauver (17:38.86)

Yeah, so we describe Ella as a high definition marketing machine. And the reason that we’ve chosen to describe her that way is we have found as professional marketers that most marketing has historically been very fuzzy. The fuzziness has been caused by specializations and fragmentation, right? The fuzziness has been caused by shifts in tactics and expectations. And the fuzziness is the fact that at the end of the day,

Most marketing is really a hypothesis that needs to be tested out there anyway. So it’s social science, it’s behavioral science. And so what we’ve said is let’s try to provide more pixels to the picture. Let’s take frameworks and connect them. Let’s take pictures and define them in greater resolution. Let’s interconnect them so that when somebody says, I want to talk to John about duct tape marketing,

John Jantsch (18:10.515)

Yeah.

Keith Lauver (18:34.37)

they’re able to do so with just a high degree of precision. So Ella is a tool that enables better messaging, more discrete personas, and essentially better results because of this high definition process.

John Jantsch (18:49.907)

Yeah, boy, will say, you you used a fate, one of my favorite words, frameworks. Um, you know, one of the best things you can do if you’re trying to get some sort of output out of, uh, out of an AI tool is, is to say, use this framework, uh, that’s well-defined. think at least it gives it some guardrails to say, okay, you know, I’m not just going to write something that hopefully sounds good. You’re going to write something that.

Keith Lauver (19:04.216)

Yes.

John Jantsch (19:14.875)

maybe is using a proven framework. And so it’s going to be more effective right off the bat, whether or not the outputs, know, word for word, what you’re going to use, at least the structure will be there.

Keith Lauver (19:18.093)

Yeah.

Keith Lauver (19:25.538)

Yeah, I think frameworks, you know, I got drawn into the idea of frameworks because I was a computer guy who fell into the field of marketing, right? I’m used to here is a subroutine. If you’re going to tell a story, here’s seven blanks to fill in. Donald Miller, thank you for giving me the seven blanks to fill in. Like I need that kind of thing. And what has been true about all the frameworks, at least that I’ve experienced is while fantastic, they’ve always been discreet.

John Jantsch (19:32.541)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (19:44.381)

Yes, exactly.

Keith Lauver (19:55.008)

and probably more unitaskers. So they’re fantastic for one thing, but they are often missing another thing. And what, least in my mind has been the missing link to all of this is a unifying, almost marketing operating system that pulls all those frameworks together. And that’s the big aspiration for what we’re trying to build.

John Jantsch (19:59.675)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (20:16.817)

Now, are you staying very focused on the niche market of, and I thought I read this, of SaaS go to market, or are really putting yourself out there as any type of business or industry?

Keith Lauver (20:27.21)

yeah.

Keith Lauver (20:31.756)

Yeah, we started in the field of SaaS. Obviously, we are too a SaaS product and understand those frameworks very well. But as Ella has so quickly grown, people are contributing their own frameworks. We’ve got authors who are saying, use mine. Or we’ve got practitioners who say, have you heard about this amazing system called duct tape? And I’m like, yes. Yes, I have. And so we’re trying to integrate those. And so

John Jantsch (20:36.147)

Sure.

John Jantsch (20:47.251)

Sure. Right.

John Jantsch (20:52.999)

Hehehehehe

Keith Lauver (20:58.988)

The idea of Ella is she can help with B2B, B2C, really across industries. And she’s getting smarter every single time somebody uses her and at least volunteers their feedback to Ella.

John Jantsch (21:13.619)

So one question that comes up a lot of times and will probably be continued to be debated forever, but are there privacy concerns? You know, I’m sharing all of my personal company data. that something or, or, you know, as an agency, I’m sharing my clients data. Is that an issue with a model like, or a tool like Ella?

Keith Lauver (21:36.64)

It is an issue for all AI and Ella has decided to respond to that with kind of a very clear privacy policy, a very clear non-disclosure agreement that we enter into, and also very clear technical parameters where we have opted out underlying our tool is OpenAI, but we have basically disallowed OpenAI from using any prompt

for training purposes, any prompt for storage purposes. And so we can say with confidence that we are protecting the confidentiality of that information. And I think it is important that we do that.

John Jantsch (22:15.461)

Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s going to be, you know, a raging debate for some time. And I think we’ll end up having, won’t we end up having the same thing that happened to the search engines, that, you know, the, the, all the privacy and all the stuff that they’re, they’ve been doing and not telling anybody. We’ll, we’ll come back to in lawsuits probably.

Keith Lauver (22:35.31)

I am excited to see how intellectual property will continue to evolve around all of this. But in the meantime, we’re going to let people do great work and keep what they’re doing private.

John Jantsch (22:38.291)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (22:47.155)

Well, Keith, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Is there someplace you’d send folks to learn more about Atomic Elevator and your work?

Keith Lauver (22:56.652)

You bet, AtomicElevator.com and we’ve got free trials available. We’d love to sign up anybody. Let them take Elifer spin for a couple of weeks and see what kind of impact you can make for their clients.

John Jantsch (23:08.627)

Again, appreciate you taking a moment and maybe I’ll run into you one of these days next time I’m up in Montana.

Keith Lauver (23:15.713)

I hope that would be the case.


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