John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Outbound Squad, formerly Blissful Prospecting, hosted by Jason Bay. It’s brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Jason Bay is a leading sales expert and he talks with other leading sales experts to get you the information you need. I’ve recent episode, he talked about how much time you need to spend prospecting. Really, really eye-opening. Check it out. Uh, listen to the outbound squad, wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Chance. My guest today is Mindy Weinstein. She’s a leading expert in digital marketing and has been named as one of the top women in the industry globally. She’s the founder of the digital marketing firm Market Mindshift, and author of a book we’re gonna talk about today, the Power of Scarcity, leveraging Urgency and Demand to Influence Customer Decisions. So Mindy, welcome to the show.

Dr. Mindy Weinstein (01:09): Thank you so much for having me.

John Jantsch (01:11): So in, you know, probably the premiere book on this topic, I’m sure you’re familiar with Robert Shield, Dini’s Influence. Yes. You know, he certainly lists scarcity as one of the factors and you start with scarcity as an influence factor for chapter one. So you wanna unpack that?

Dr. Mindy Weinstein (01:28): Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, so Dr. Chaldini, I actually, he endorsed the book. So he is definitely someone that I have talked with often. But what happened is I was researching and working on my PhD cuz that’s really how this all came about, was I was looking at the influence factors and what motivates consumers. And I came across scarcity and as I dug more into research, I realized that of all the different factors that cause us to make decisions, scarcity appears to be the most powerful because it’s actually primal. It’s something that our ancestors even dealt with with scarcity. And still today it’s, we get the same type of emotions and reactions, even if it’s a product that’s scarce. I’m not talking about like survival and all of those things, but actually,

John Jantsch (02:14): But that’s, but you’re saying that’s where it started, right? To some degree. Right. I mean it’s like, are we gonna have enough food to eat? You know, is there gonna be water or where we go where we’re going? So that’s probably where it started, right?

Dr. Mindy Weinstein (02:23): Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And so that’s a thing our ancestors, you know, they, in the early days of humankind, you know, they were trying to survive by looking for scarce resources, you know, shelter, water, food. And then when you look at even just the empires that are ruled over the years, you know, the ones that had controls usually because they had control of food and water. And so we are hardwired to respond to scarcity.

John Jantsch (02:52): So I don’t know if Robert told you this story. He was actually on my show years ago and he actually said he wrote the book cuz he was tired of seeing people be influenced. Mm-hmm and it was more of a, it was supposed to be more of a consumer guide. , right? Yeah. to how to not be influenced and of course turned into one of the bibles for marketers to use to influence people. So h how do you deal with the idea that influence mm-hmm sometimes is used in a negative way.

Dr. Mindy Weinstein (03:18): Yes. And that was actually something that I had on my mind, you know, as I was working on this book is because I also don’t want there to be fake scarcity, you know, as people realize like, oh this is really powerful so I’m just gonna make everything limited quantity and everything’s selling out fast. And so I really warn against that in the book because you think about today’s day and age, I mean we can look up companies easily if someone’s not happy, they’re gonna post on social, they’re gonna post on review sites. So really doing anything that’s false, you know, in terms of marketing saying that something’s running out, it’s not, it backfires and it’s one of those, it’s harder to improve your reputation. So for me, like one of the things I look at with this book is I go back and forth cuz all of us, we’re all consumers too.

(04:04): You know, even being in business we’re consumers too. So I wear both hats is that I really want to educate people on both sides. So there are times that scarcity, you know, they couldn’t be really beneficial, you know, informing customers that yes, you know, this event, there’s only so many seats left. That was someone I had interviewed and he talked about these great events that he does and he said, we’ve gotten to the point that our members want to hear from us. You know, they wanna know if they’re running out cause they don’t wanna miss their chance. And so there’s a lot of benefit too. But yeah, definitely needs to be above board and ethical.

John Jantsch (04:36): Well, yeah, I mean how many Black Friday emails are we still getting today on Monday? Right? Saying the Black Friday sale, only one more day left. It’s like, wait, this is like Monday. Yeah,

Dr. Mindy Weinstein (04:45): Today’s Monday

John Jantsch (04:46): . So y the term FOMO has certainly become in the lexicon, you know, fear of missing out. Yes. Is social media of course I think amplified that because we could see what we were missing out so easily. Right on. Right. Um, you suggested it’s very motivated by another human behavior and that we are quite often more afraid of what we might lose than what we might gain in something. So, you know, how does that drive this, this idea of scarcity?

Dr. Mindy Weinstein (05:16): Yeah, so you know, fomo, like you said, we all know fomo, we’ve heard it, but it’s actually based on a deeper psychological theory known as loss aversion. Mm-hmm . And so as humans we are naturally more prone to feeling stronger about a potential loss than even we are a potential gain. And the example I like to give when, cuz a lot of times when I say that I have people go really like, but I get really excited when I get things. But if you think about this way, cuz we’ve all been in this situation where you might be walking on the sidewalk or in a parking lot and you find, let’s say a $20 bill, you’re like, you look around, there’s no one there. And you’re like, okay great, this is amazing. You’re excited, you put it in your pocket. But we’ve also all been in that situation where we’ve misplaced a $20 bill and that feeling that you have for losing that is actually a lot stronger than it is that feeling of excitement when you gain something. And so we’re just wired that way and that’s why FOMO is a thing, but it’s based on loss aversion.

John Jantsch (06:15): Well, and you hear a lot of marketers jokingly, half jokingly talk about the idea that, you know, you need to sell painkillers instead of vitamins, you know mm-hmm that people will try to get rid of pain or rid of something that, you know, is really nagging them at the moment rather than like taking the wellness path. Right. , you know, that maybe is a long term, you know, fix. So I mean is that a little bit of it too that drives some of the scarcity, you know, idea?

Dr. Mindy Weinstein (06:41): Yes. And it’s actually even, it’s, so it is that fear of loss, but it is, like you said, it’s more of that okay, this is a quick fix, right? I’m gonna buy this, I’m gonna feel better. But there’s also something that it compliments everything we’re talking about and it’s our anticipated regret. So what happens sometimes if we’re faced with, you know, like you’re talking about the Black Friday, you get a Black Friday text message and you’re looking at something and it does kind of interest you. Now you go through a, well, if I don’t buy this right, am I gonna regret it? And you start to anticipate how you’re gonna feel. And so that anticipated regret and the fear of loss, it really does motivate us then to take that quick action. But what’s very interesting is what we’ve found through research is that regret or anticipated regret of not taking action is actually short-lived. So we might feel like, you know this, we’re really gonna regret this, but you’re probably not , you know, come 24 hours even like maybe a couple hours later you’re like, okay, well I’m glad I didn’t buy that. So those are good reminders from a consumer point of view, but it’s also good to know that from the business perspective as well.

John Jantsch (07:43): So. So what are some examples that, that you’ve seen? I guess we could go both good and bad mm-hmm. uses of this idea of scarcity. I mean we’re all familiar with like the clock count, countdown clock Yes. And the limited seats and mm-hmm. , the, you know, you know the little thing that pops up. Like I just bought some concert tickets that said this show is selling really fast. Better get it, you know, today. So, you know, what are some examples, I suppose both good and bad uses. Yeah. Of tech tactics of scarcity.

Dr. Mindy Weinstein (08:12): Right? And so, you know, it’s important too to understand, I’m gonna give you examples, but there’s really four different types of scarcity. And that’s really important to understand as I’m going through the examples. So there’s time related scarcity. So that would be the countdown timer that you’re talking about. Right? Or the other thing though with time related are products that are only available a certain amount of time. Mm-hmm and I like to think about McDonald’s. I give that example all the time because everyone knows the Mac McRib, we all know the mc McRib, it came out recently, it was on a farewell tour. It had been on a farewell tour a few other times throughout the years . And so that’s only available a certain amount of time. So anything that’s a time restriction. So it could just be a limited time offering the pumpkin spice latte, peppermint bark at trader shows.

(08:55): You know, I think of all these things, but that’s really time related. But then you have also supply related. And that is really where there is a limited quantity. And it could be because of a supply shortage or an intentional restriction, right? So that’s where things like drops come into play. You know, like Nike will have a drop that’s limited or that’s supply related. And what that does is that really speaks to people who wanna be different and unique, have some self-expression, they don’t want what everyone else has. And then on top of that there’s limited edition, which is part of supply related. And that’s, I mean, I even went to the store and there was a limited edition Sprite for the holidays, like cranberry Sprite. So it’s any kind of twist but still elicits scarcity, all of these examples because it’s something that you can’t always get. And then finally there’s really demand related scarcity. And examples of those are anytime you have a wait list or you show something has been restocked mm-hmm. or you show that something is selling out, those are demand related scarcity. So all of the things that I think about scarcity, you know, sometimes it’s just a matter of how we word things or as a marketer, you know, it could be something we wanna create some fun and excitement with, like the mc, McRib, , you know, it could be lots of different ways to use it.

John Jantsch (10:09): And really, as I listen to you describe those different ways. I mean a lot of them have intentionality too, them mm-hmm. , don’t they? I mean, so like how many software companies launch? They don’t do it so much anymore. When it was a little more unique, some of the SaaS companies would launch with a wait list . Right? Even if there really was no, you know, reason . Yeah. For a wait list. It was the forced wait list that wanted you to get in, you know, more so. Right. Is that, I mean that’s obviously a clearly an example of a, of the wait listing, but is that also an intentional use? That’s actually probably false in one hand, but is driving an objective on the other hand.

Dr. Mindy Weinstein (10:50): So it, you know, that’s where it’s, you gotta be careful. So I mean, yes, it is something that you are creating, but it could be truly, I know some companies, if it’s a product especially that you’re gonna have a wait list. I think about the Ford Bronco. Mm-hmm. , there was another one I just read that’s like a two year wait list. I mean, so you have those BIV

John Jantsch (11:07): Issues, electric trucks, yeah.

Dr. Mindy Weinstein (11:08): Right. So with some of those, yeah, I mean it is gonna be manufactured scarcity. And I think consumers do know that in certain situations, but then it becomes more of like they’re now on the wait list. Or if it’s something where they can get an exclusive access or do you remember when Clubhouse came out? The app clubhouse? Mm-hmm. that was invite only. And so that was still actually scarcity because it was exclusive. Right? And that would fall under supply related because only, you know, you had to be special and be invited. And so those definitely fall into that. But they still elicit those feelings because from our brain and how it’s made up is that when we’re faced with something that’s harder to get, we are gonna focus on that. And we’re gonna also equate that with value. And so again, it’s just automatic. And we’ve even even seen that in brain scans.

John Jantsch (11:54): Let me ask you a few things. Do you feel like you know what differentiates your business from every other business out there? Can you confidently charge a premium for what you offer? Are you working from a plan, a marketing roadmap that allows you to know precisely what to do next? Look, don’t worry if you can’t answer yes to any or all of these questions, you’re not alone. See marketers today get so focused on the tactic of the week, staring them right in the face that they forget to look at the big picture. The overarching strategy needed to consistently grow their business. Over the years I’ve worked with thousands of businesses helping them do just that. Create the perfect marketing strategy and plan that gives total clarity about what to do next. Confidence to charge ahead and charge more and complete control of the marketing tactics they choose. I would love to help you and your team do the same. Look to find out if our strategy first program is right for you, visit dtm.world/grow and request a free consultation. That’s DTM world slash grow. So as a consumer, let’s kind of flip this around. I feel like we’ve been talking about marketers now as a consumer, you know, is there a way to, it’s like when you’re experiencing fomo, do this, you know, a way to kind of avoid making the impulses that often, you know, come from it.

Dr. Mindy Weinstein (13:19): Oh yes. And you know, one thing that I want to just admit right away is that, you know, I’m a researcher. I wrote, wrote this book, I’m a marketer, I’m all these things, but I’m a consumer and I still get caught up in it. So I’ll tell you some of the things that we know from research because scarcity’s that powerful. But what we know is that that again, that feeling that you’re gonna have the missing out, the first thing is recognizing that’s driving a decision. That’s the first, well that’s like all things recognize that you have a problem. No, recognize that there is some FOMO involved. And ask yourself, what is the motivation behind this purchase? Is it truly because I want it or is it because I’m fearful that I’ll miss out on something? That’s the first thing. And then the second thing, if it’s something that you can wait on, you know, wait 24 hours, that’s generally what I recommend.

(14:07): You know, don’t buy anything. Wait 24 hours the next day. If it’s truly still something you want, then that’s the time then to consider. Budget obviously comes into mind. But is this something worth buying? And then that other thing that I talked about, knowing that feeling is short-lived, that you’re not gonna continue to feel like you’re gonna miss out. Knowing that really equips you to make more like informed decisions. And actually, I think I said I had three, but I have a fourth one to throw in there. And this is just being an informed consumer. You know, there’s so much we know, there’s so much research and so much information you could find online. If you feel like, okay, this seems like a really good deal, don’t hit, hit the buy button right away. Look at what some of the prices have been previously for that product. Have there been been similar sales? Are there different places you can buy it? And that just helps equip you when you’re making those decisions.

John Jantsch (14:58): You know, flipping back to marketers, I mean, is there a point at which people start seeing the countdown clock and go, that’s bs. You know, that actually makes me not really a fan of your brand. I mean, even if maybe it’s, well let’s just assume it’s real, that there really is a countdown clock that you really are gonna stick to what you said. Still using those tactics. Uh, is there a risk of people who are just so sick of them now that it kind of tarnishes the brand even if it’s valid?

Dr. Mindy Weinstein (15:24): Yeah, so, and that’s a great question. You know, using is the same tactic too much. Yes it can backfire because people fatigue with that. And even, you know, companies that continue to offer the same coupons and same promotions, you start to value that product or service based on that discount versus what you would normally charge. And so your customers aren’t going to think of it as valuable. But when you use them periodically, they do help. Like I know one company, they are an e-bike company, so they sell mainly online and they do countdown timers just to show when the sale ends. So they’re already doing the sale. They just added that additional item on there. And talking to the ceo, he said, it’s amazing when we do that. He goes, sales increased by 40%. So it’s like people do know that and we all have a love-hate relationship with them.

(16:11): I know as customers, like we hate them, but then we’re still gonna buy during that time period too because we’re now competing with the clock. But it’s just a matter of not using the same, you know, app approach and tactic over and over again. And also knowing your audience because mm-hmm. like supply related is really good. Like I said, for people who wanna be unique, self-expression, things that are popular, high demand, those are people who wanna be part of a group, you know, and conform time related works for just about anything , you know, except for luxury items usually that doesn’t really speak to those buyers. Yeah. And so knowing a little bit about your audience really does help with that when you’re thinking about which tactic should I use and well at work and while people just be irritated or not.

John Jantsch (16:52): So, so let’s flip this around a little bit, and I think you’ve alluded to it some, but you know, for some people when everybody is having fomo mm-hmm. That’s when they want to like bail, right? So it’s like, what’s the punchline? The joke like this place is dead, everybody goes there now. And so, you know, how do you in some ways use scarcity as a like, you know, differentiator mm-hmm without it just becoming, you know, turning off your trues fans so to speak.

Dr. Mindy Weinstein (17:21): Right. Right. And that’s, I mean that’s a huge thing that luxury brands have had to deal with. You know, there was a case a while ago about Christian Dior and seeing that their colognes and perfumes were in grocery stores, you know, and that was a problem. And so it’s distribution is distribution issue. And so for brands, just going back, like to kind of just clarify a little bit more of what I found from research, you know, if you have a product or a, or really it’s a product, you know, that’s more conspicuous consumption. So something someone’s gonna wear and show off or carry around or you know, things, electronics usually fall into that. Well that is very much going to speak to those people who don’t wanna be like everyone else. And so you do have to keep that in mind. And it’s that balance between do restrict, you know, they restrict supplies, that’s why they do drops and things like that.

(18:12): But just knowing that’s who you’re going to be speaking to, you’re not gonna turn those people off by doing that cuz you’re actually gonna continue to draw them in because of that. But then going to like what you’re talking about, well if something becomes really popular and people wanna be different, well it depends what it is. Like there’s actually a jewelry company that I talked with the CEO O and that is still conspicuous consumption, but at the same time, this particular brand, very popular with celebrities. So then you have the whole consumer base who wanna be like this, you know these different people, right? And so they found that actually one of their biggest assets as a company was they were having a hard time staying in stock and so they were constantly restocking. Sure. And they were letting customers know. And when I talked to the founder of that company, she said that it was when we sent out an email and it just said restocked, you know, in the subject line and just sales, they already like sold out again . And so you, it again, it just, it so depends on the audience and the product, but some of that’s gonna come down to testing, you know, see what works and resonates with your customers.

John Jantsch (19:15): It’s interesting you mentioned the distribution element Dior, you know, one example that comes to mind and for me was Crispy Green Donuts. I don’t know you that Yes. Oh yes. You know, they were, they had like a cult following, I mean that people would go to the stores cuz the only place you could get ’em is stores. You’d watch him by the millions being made. Right. You know, and it was almost a partly experience and all of a sudden they were like, let’s sell ’em in gas stations and it kind of killed the brand, you know, frankly, I mean I probably still sell billions, you know that way. Six at a time. But you know, it killed the appeal of the brand so to speak.

Dr. Mindy Weinstein (19:48): And it was the experience too. I mean I remember going and if you’d wait in line, you could watch ’em go through the conveyor belt, right? It would give you your hot donut as you were there. And so yeah, lost a little bit of that, that Lester I guess you could say. Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:03): So Mindy, I appreciate stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. You want to tell people where they can find the power of scarcity and maybe connect with you in some other ways?

Dr. Mindy Weinstein (20:11): Yes. So I make it really easy. Just go to power of scarcity.com. That will take you to a page where it has my book. You could order it, but also has all my contact information there too. But that’s the best place. So power of scarcity.com.

John Jantsch (20:25): Awesome. Well again, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the podcast and uh, hopefully we’ll run into you in real life, one of these days out there on the road.

Dr. Mindy Weinstein (20:32): I would love that.

John Jantsch (20:33): Hey, and one final thing before you go. You know how I talk about marketing strategy, strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that, what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the Marketing Strategy Assessment. You can find it@ marketingassessment.co. Check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketingassessment.co. I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Outbound Squad, formerly Blissful Prospecting, hosted by Jason Bay. It’s brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Jason Bay is a leading sales expert, and he talks with other leading sales experts to get you the information you need. I have recent episode. He talked about how much time you need to spend prospecting. Really, really eye-opening. Check it out. Uh, listen to the outbound squad, wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Tom Peters. He is the co-author of In Search of Excellence, the book that changed the way the world does business and is often tagged as the best business book ever, 20 books. And 40 years later, Tom is still at the forefront of the management guru industry. He’s single-handedly invented, and he’s out with yet another co-authored book, uh, co-authored with Nancy Green, entitled Tom Peters Compact Guide to Excellence. So Tom, welcome back to the show.

Tom Peters (01:15): Thank you. Hey, pleasure to be back.

John Jantsch (01:17): So I don’t wanna gloss, gloss

Tom Peters (01:19): Over. My pleasure to be talking to you in Colorado where all my kids are. So there,

John Jantsch (01:22): It’s . I don’t wanna gloss over. I mentioned your co-author a lot of times, co-authors, you know, don’t get enough credit. Uh, Nancy Green is no slouch on her own, right? Is she

Tom Peters (01:32): understatement ? Uh, you, you did, you did not unfortunately get a copy of the book, but it’s an undersized book, and the book is it’s design. Uh, you know, it’s meant to be succinct. It’s meant to be, not really a closing statement, but something that can, it’s meant to be compact. Yes. And, you know, Nancy just did an incre, you know, she’s on everybody’s list of best designers on the planet, and, uh, an ama an amazing person. And I have no idea how the hell I got So lucky is to have her as a partner on this

John Jantsch (02:05): . Well, and I, I would, I do wanna get into that a little bit, um, at, at a another point. Uh, I wanna start with, um, your intro. You know, as I introduced you, your place in the management guru, uh, industry, you know, I’ve always looked at a lot of the work, and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong on this, , I’ve always looked at a lot of the work that you do. Uh, I mean, as introducing sort of subsets of the management, uh, guru industry, if we’re gonna keep calling it that, you know, excellence is something that, you know, you brought to the conversation, um, execution , um, you know, as, as certainly something you brought to conversation brand, you wow, extreme humanism. Um, it almost feels, uh, like when I see you come out with something, you’re zigging when other people are still zagging. So is that a fair ? Uh, I mean, do you spot trends or destroy them? , I guess.

Tom Peters (02:56): Uh, boy, I like to almost think the opposite, and I like to almost think it in search of excellence came outta McKinsey and Company. McKinsey believed that the world was strategy, strategy, strategy, strategy. Right. And we said, Hey, what about execution? What about people? And as far as I’m concerned, that’s what I started saying in 1979, and have not changed my tune in the least. I, I certainly agree with you that there’ve been, you know, many subsets along the way. Aah. The new book. I started focusing on design years ago. I started focusing on more women in leadership position years ago. Uh, those are, those are, but those are subset. It’s still people first. And why don’t you dummies Get it

John Jantsch (03:51): , uh,

Tom Peters (03:53): And you know, the the brand, the brand you thing, uh, which just had its 25th anniversary, by the way. Yep. That makes me sound like a genius today, . But the point was 25 years ago that when you went to work for Hewlett, what’s 25 years ago is 97, when you went to work for Hewlett Packard in 1997, you expected to be there for the next 40 years. And you didn’t have a name anymore. You were badged twenty seven hundred and thirty two, and you worked your butt off and you got promoted and you made more money and so on. But it was a lifetime thing. And when I started that writing, the lifetime employment thing was coming to an absolute end at a very high speed. And of course, today, that’s the oldest news in the world, right. . Uh, my big problem with Brand U, which is partially the fault of Fast Company who published it and used a, a box of Cheers magazine as the, uh, cheers, uh, soap as the background is people have translated Brand U into self-marketing. Yeah. And that’s 180 degrees off my point of brand U has become incredibly good at something that is useful to other people. Me as many relationships as you possibly can. Uh, it’s not about tuning your horn, it’s not about doing this or that or what have you. So that’s, that’s kind of made me sad though. You know, as I said, I’m probably somewhat responsible for it myself.

John Jantsch (05:31): So, so you weren’t really, uh, uh, giving a nod to, uh, the Instagram influencer, uh, culture that erupted, you know, with that

Tom Peters (05:39): Is precisely on the money. Exactly. Right. Yes. So I guess if I had foreseen it, I could be a multi-billionaire. We wouldn’t have to be bothering to have this conversation right now.

John Jantsch (05:50): . So you have written a book that I think is in excess of 900 pages, um, in your, uh, library. Uh, this book is not 900 pages . This is a very compact book. Is that part of the message?

Tom Peters (06:07): Yes, it is. Stripping stuff down to the essentials. The book should you be so inclined, which I’m not particularly keen on having you be, so you could read the thing in an hour. Uh, because fundamentally it is, uh, a series of quotes. It is the, you know, the the boiling down of the boiling down of the boiling down. And what my great hope is that you would, you’d be working with your colleagues, you’d look through the book, you’d pull two or three things out that kind of made sense for you, and then dig into them yourselves without me offering 3000 words of commentary. It’s, uh, it’s, it’s meant to be thought starters. It’s meant to be a bit provocative. Uh, you know, Richard Branson said, we used it as a, as an epigraph years ago. Uh, you shouldn’t do business unless you give the people who work for you enriching and rewarding lives. Uh, you know, that’s, that’s worthy of a, all of us sitting down and talking about it for the next day.

John Jantsch (07:24): Talk a little bit about, I mean, obviously you, you referenced this already. You have a book or a series of books on design specifically, um, is why was design such a crucial element of this book? Obviously the size is off, you know, a typical book. Uh, there are a lot of the graphics in this book. You had a great designer, one of the world’s best designers, you know, collaborate with you. Um, so why was design such a crucial element of the book itself? Well,

Tom Peters (07:51): Design, I’m gonna have to backtrack. Design became a big deal to me, I don’t know, 25 years ago or so. One of the biggest design companies is called I d O, right? And the guy who started I D O, David Kelly had a little organization called David Kelly Design, and his office in Palo Alto was two blocks from my office in Palo Alto. And so David was my teacher in a way, you know, I’m an engineer, engineers can’t even spell design if you spotted us the first five letters. And, and it was just a, it was just a realization, but particularly in an age where the finance guys run the companies and cost minimization is the holy grail. Mm-hmm. . And what I’m simply arguing, and you’ve argued this as loudly and longly almost as I have, is sort of what’s the point? Unless you’re delivering a product or a service that’s really a, that’s special, that’s a turn on that you can brag to your spouse and your kids about.

(09:03): That’s something that makes you smile. And that’s really my design point. It’s as simple as that, and complicated as that. And it is meant to be the enemy of, you know, these, these guys wrote a book that’s quoted in there called, oh my God, the, whatever, the three, the three, the three laws. It’s Deloitte and two guys. They took 25,000 companies. They boiled it down to 27 companies. And the three rules were revenue before cost, uh, I don’t know, quality before, whatever. But the, and then rule number three was there are no other rules. Hmm. And you know, what they found was that the best companies created great stuff. And yeah, again, as you know, and that’s a turn on for customers. It’s a turn on for our own employees. And, you know, excuse my language, I don’t know who our viewers are, but you know, what’s the point of busting your ass to make shit products or products like everybody else’s

John Jantsch (09:59): Products? Yeah. So in

Tom Peters (10:02): This book, this is a combination of that. Obviously this work, this work with Nancy is meant to be kinda the period at the end of the sentence or the exclamation mark at the end of the sentence.

John Jantsch (10:12): Well, one of the things that, that I know, you know, I know you’ve talked about it, it design great design, uh, helps you deliver a great message in a lot fewer words, doesn’t it?

Tom Peters (10:21): ab, absolutely. Yeah. You know, that’s, that, that’s, you know, aah, this book being the classic, the, the, the, it, it was funny, I worked with Nancy on my prior book and I was writing relative to this book, a special acknowledgement. And I thought, , that’s lunacy. She’s not a person to be specially acknowledged. She’s the co-author. Yeah. She’s the principal author. Because the message is the look, the feel, the taste, the touch, uh, and then a series of boiled down pieces of commentary on the inside. And that’s the ballgame. And you know, I think that’s obviously true. If you and I are running a restaurant, I think it’s true. If we’re writing a piece of software, I think that everything has the ability to be beautiful, thoughtful, excellent. Choose your set of words. And as I said, again, you know, why the hell bother to get up in the morning if that’s not your aspiration. I, I, I can’t imagine, I guess I can, maybe if I’d gotten listened more in my accounting course at Stanford a thousand years ago, , but I can’t imagine going home and bragging, oh my God, we got another eight of a cent outta that thing, you know, have gone up from, you know, 0.273 to 0.2 7, 3 2, oh my God, what a day. , that wouldn’t work for

John Jantsch (11:39): Me. Are you an agency owner, consultant or coach that works with business owners? Then I want to talk to you about adding a new revenue stream to your business that will completely change how you work with clients. For the first time ever, you can license and use the Duct Tape Marketing system and methodology in your business through an upcoming three day virtual workshop. Give us three days and you’ll walk away with a complete system that changes how you think about your agency’s growth. The Duct Tape Marketing System is a turnkey set of processes for installing a marketing system that starts with strategy and moves to long-term retainer implementation engagements. We’ve developed a system by successfully working with thousands of businesses. Now you can bring it to your agency and benefit from all the tools, templates, systems, and processes we’ve developed to find out when our next workshop is being held, visit DTM world slash workshop. That’s DTM world slash Workshop. I’m curious, as a, as, as a fellow author, uh, you, this book is essentially, um, a collection of curated, uh, quotes, um, broken up into 13 topics. I’m curious what your process was. Um, did you just have your notebook of favorite quotes and said, oh, I can apply this here, I can apply this here. Did you come up with the topics first and go looking for the quotes? I’m just curious what your process was.

Tom Peters (13:05): I read my prior book,

John Jantsch (13:07): .

Tom Peters (13:08): I, my prior book, which Nancy worked on was called Excellence Now Extreme Humanism. And she did a brilliant job of laying that one out too. But I really was to kick myself in the face a little bit. I really was going through it, and I think it’s quite a good book. And I thought, Tom, did we really need those 500 words of commentary from you? You know, you know, the, you’ve got a, you’ve got a terrific quote, like the Branson quote. Uh, it stands by itself, it makes a bold statement that stands out. Do we really need 400 words by Tom Peters to restate the obvious? And, you know, so I went through the book. I, and I ended up with, you know, about 125 things that stood out. And Nancy and I talked, and, you know, we ca we had, you know, we were, we were calling it in our initial, we called it, uh, uh, tl, R b at first, the Little Red Book , but you know, which, which it is, except you really don’t want Mao being your reference in life as one of the all time, you know, murderers. So, you know, we ch we changed it to this. But, uh, you know, as I say, it was, no, it was quotes I’ve used before. I’ve used ’em several times before. I used them in the prior book, and Nancy and I looked at it and say, this would be cool. Let’s see what we can do. And the translation of, let’s see what we could do was, you know, 99.99% Nancy Green and 1% me standing on the sidelines applauding .

(14:42): And I love the book. I mean, I would never say that about any of my other books, but I just love this thing. I love holding onto it. The, you know, Kous reviews, which is the big mother of all reviewers, called it an O Dart. Uh, and it, it is, it’s in part, and that’s kinda the message, it’s the internal message, uh, and it’s the external message.

John Jantsch (15:04): So you’ve talked about a little bit about some of the thoughts being provocative and making people stop. Um, frankly, I’ll just go with the, the first one, amateurs talk about strategy. Um, you know, that’s gonna have a lot of people scratching their heads. It’s like, wait a minute. I thought strategy before everything thing. Um, and you’re, you’re basically turning that idea on its head, aren’t you?

Tom Peters (15:28): Well, don’t give me the credit, right. , the quote is, amateurs talk about strategy, professionals talk about logistics. , uh, there’s some question as to who the quote came from. When I first heard it, it was a quote that came from General Omar Bradley, who was the commander of all US troops, uh, at D-Day. And, you know, fundamentally it was, it was his point, you know, you can have the greatest strategy in the world, but if you’re landing on a messy beach with people shooting at you, it would be nice to know the ammunition was coming in directly behind you, . And it also was the point of in search of excellence, as I think I alluded to briefly, everything at McKinsey was strategy, strategy, strategy, strategy. And, you know, my colleague, co-author, the late, unfortunately, passed away this year, pop Waterman. And I said, there’s a lot more to life than this.

(16:25): And we knew these companies like Hewlett Packard, which of course is a bureaucratic monster now, but which was a fast growing large SME at the time. And they’ve got turned on employees. You know, we were only a few blocks away from Apple Computer turned on employees. They’re doing products that make you proud. Uh, and it’s not just a piece of paper called a plan. It’s not a strategy. It’s, it’s a way of life. I mean, the, the, the most kind of amusing part is my number one enemy at McKinsey and Company, in many respects was very senior guy by the name of Lou Gerstner. Lou left McKenzie Lou eventually became the c e o of b m when it was hurting and turned it around. Uh, and in a book that he wrote who says, elephants Can’t dance, I remember him saying, I always thought strategy first, planning first, and so on.

(17:20): And then I came to this God awful messed up place, and I came to realize it was culture first. It’s changing people’s views, their minds, their attitudes and and so on. So, you know, that’s, that’s really where, that’s where that comes from. Um, and, and I don’t know, I I just get off on the people who do the work and their full scale engagement, and I want to know where I’m going in a general fashion, but mainly I don’t want everybody to be turned on about doing the best damn job and the most innovative job and the most enjoyable job they can today. That’s execution.

John Jantsch (18:02): So words like culture, which you already mentioned, humanism. I mean, I think the, those ideas are getting a lot of play these days, especially when people are finding it hard to find staff , uh, for, for a lot of positions. Uh, where are people getting that wrong?

Tom Peters (18:21): Boy? No, there’s a good question. . Uh, you’ve focused on SMEs more than these giant monsters that, I mean, that’s another discussion, uh,

John Jantsch (18:34): That, that was my next question, actually, but go ahead.

Tom Peters (18:36): Yeah. What, what I was gonna say is, when you or I, with or without one too many beers or glasses of wine, talk about why every restaurant in town really annoys and, you know, and we start talking about the things that we could do if it was, if it was our restaurant and we could do these cool things that might have to do with look, feel, taste, touch, menu, think of the people we could, we’re, we’re, we’re I think where people get it, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a whole way of life. You don’t decide suddenly in the midst of the pandemic that you wanna be more at tra it’s Right. . That’s what I love about SMEs. You know, the, the one I wrote about, I guess my last two books is a company in Connecticut, Seymour, Connecticut, and it’s called Basement Systems Inc. And Larry Janesky is the founder, and can you imagine anything more boring in the world than a basement?

(19:34): Right? Well, what Larry’s company does is transform your moldy, damp, old basement into a, you know, into a family room, into a second bedroom, or whatever else it is. And he is built a hundred million dollar company, but it’s, it’s excitement around basements, it’s excitement around these sorts of, of things, which to me is the whole point. And I really believe, if you and I were incredibly excited about this restaurant, I think our enthusiasm would attract people to us. I really think people would be maybe not quite waiting in line, but you know, when, when we ca we can’t find, you know, maybe I’m naive though, at my age, I would hope that’s not the case. , when I hear we can’t find people, what I’m really hearing is you can’t create a magnet that people are desperate to come and work for. And and isn’t that your shtick? I mean, isn’t that the whole point of the SM e Yeah.

John Jantsch (20:30): Yeah.

Tom Peters (20:30): And SMEs create well over a hundred percent of all new jobs, by the way,

John Jantsch (20:36): . Yeah. I, I, I think I have read probably from you statistics, you know, because, because a lot of people think of management consulting as Fortune 500, you know, McKinsey territory, um, and really your books, quite frankly, um, I don’t think you always get credit for this, but I think your books are more applicable, applicable to companies who can do something about it. , um, and, and Mo we’re largely talking about SMEs, uh, there Yeah. Who can actually take what you’ve written and apply it.

Tom Peters (21:04): Well, and the statistics, alas, in some respects are, are on my side. Yes. , uh, the giant companies are all going downhill. It’s just a matter of what the speed is. There’s a quote from an economist that I think I used in this book, Paul Paul erd, and he said, I am often asked by people wanting to start a new company, what do I do next? And he said, buy a big one, a small company, buy a big one and just wait.

John Jantsch (21:32): , you

Tom Peters (21:33): Know, the, and the, and you know it, it’s a fact they’re all going downhill. I mean, the o the only, the only asterisk, which goes back to the beginning is I think if you and I are stuck in one of those monsters, and we have a group of 25 people working on something, I think you and I can in a way create our own small business within this giant bureaucratic monster. Right. You know, that’s what I, one of the people who was in search of excellence, uh, was a guy by the name of Ren McPherson, who, you know, worked for a big Midwestern tool company, and he became c e o of the company. He said, my secret was every little piece they gave me, I turned into a stellar organization and people wanted to work there, and it was making money. And finally they said, well, you know, we can’t stop him.

(22:19): I guess we might not give him the whole damn thing , but so it is possible to have a magical piece. You know, I, I wrote this book that I think is the most important one I ever wrote. Nobody bought it, really? But you can’t have everything . And it was when that brand new book came out, and it was called The Professional Service Firm 50. And the point was that all the staff jobs are being offshore, whether it’s training, whether it’s this, or whether it’s that. If you and I are running, uh, 15 person purchasing department, why can’t we make that into an incredibly sexy professional service firm providing incredible services to our mates in our company, doing outside business for profit? And I really believe that if people had read the book and taken it seriously, you would’ve had a hell of a lot less offshoring than we have subsequently had.

John Jantsch (23:14): Yeah. Cause again, rather than somebody looking at that as an asset of the company, it’s just a cost.

Tom Peters (23:19): Yeah. Just a cost. Just a cost. Yeah. I mean, for God’s sakes, it’s a, it’s a cost. And what’s your first name again? Oh, I’m

John Jantsch (23:26): Overhead . All right. Let me ask you, like,

Tom Peters (23:30): Is it a one, is it a wonder that if your overhead, it doesn’t necessarily enthu you to get outta bed an extra half hour early?

John Jantsch (23:37): All right, I wanna end our conversation today with like a, just an impossible question. Um, but you know, a lot of, you’ve been doing this for 40 years, you’ve seen change over 40 years. A lot of people are very fixated in like, the moment this recession or this global pandemic, you know, the change that’s going on right before our eyes. Right. But as you look at a 40 year kind of

Tom Peters (23:56): Arc, well, given the God awful political mess, the concerns we have about violence and so on, it’s a little bit difficult for me, uh, to be terribly optimistic at this point. Yeah. Uh, and particularly, you know, as, as we have this conversation, recession is being predicted as, as right around the corner, uh, I don’t necessarily see a generally upward trend. I really wish I did. Uh, you know, I the best you and you’re gonna, you res I’m gonna ask the question this time. You don’t get to do all this . Uh, I hope that you and I can be useful to people who look at what you’ve done or what I’ve done, and they transform their little tiny corner of the world, and I hope it infects more of the world. But I don’t have an ego that says that I’ve come up with a solution that, you know, solves all the planet’s problems. I just, just, you know, I said to somebody, if, if Tony Robbins comes into a room with a thousand people, he expects to change a thousand lives. If I come into a room with a thousand people and two people walk out an hour later and say, holy shit, we really ought to do this. I have had one good big fantastic day. I mean, don’t, don’t you feel the same

John Jantsch (25:27): Way? A absolutely one life changed . Absolutely.

Tom Peters (25:30): Yeah. One, one life changed as a, you know, what, what, what’s the, what’s the, I never really understood this. It’s a, there’s a, uh, someplace, I think it’s in Jerusalem, some places where a sing a tree is planted for you if you have saved a single life or helped a single life. And I’m getting that all wrong, and I’ll be shot out by people who know the real answer, . But the idea is, if, if you can help, you know, Mary or Sam say, holy smokes, I can really do this in a different way than I think both of us had a hell of a good day.

John Jantsch (26:02): All right. Uh, do you have a favorite quote from the book? Everybody asks you that I’m sure.

Tom Peters (26:09): Well, my favorite quote in the book comes from a movie director, Robert Altman. Mm-hmm. , uh, and this was from his acceptance speech, when he won a lifetime achievement award. He said the role of the director is to create a space where actors can become more than they have ever been before, more than they have ever dreamed of being. And I love that. And I think it is the essence of leadership in a restaurant in a four-person training department, or in Mr. Altman’s case when he’s, you know, creating some sort of a movie, create a place where people never, you know, the, uh, New York Times comments, David Brooks wrote, uh, an article some years ago, a couple years ago, what have you, and in it he contrasted what he called resume virtues and eulogy virtues, and the resume virtues, of course, the degrees you got the promotions, you got your net worth, whatever it was. The eulogy virtues obviously are what they say about you at your funeral. And, you know, and that’s all about your thoughtfulness, your caring, and so on. And so, my one liner for the average supervisor or the individual for that matter, how’s your eulogy virtue score score today? Mm-hmm. Who did you help? Who did you give a little bit of a hand to parentheses. And my stats say, by the way, over the long term, it’s the best way to grow, market share, make money.

John Jantsch (27:43): Right. Right, right, right. awesome. Tom, it was so great to visit with you again. Um, I’ve, I’d invite people to visit tom peters.com. Is there anywhere else? Obviously the books are available everywhere, but, uh, anywhere else you wanna send people to connect with you or learn more

Tom Peters (27:58): About? Well, I’m happy to have, you know, I, I hate to say it, I use Twitter, though. I’m not sure I will very, very much longer with Mr. Musk’s behavior. Uh, tom peters.com has pretty much everything I’ve done for the last 25 years, available for free for anybody. And, uh, love, love to have you come by sample. Uh, our interview will be@tompeters.com after you, you’ve put it up live for a while, so, uh, stop by, say hello, comment, whatever. It’s been a great oppor, I love great conversation. Well,

John Jantsch (28:31): Thank so

Tom Peters (28:32): Much and you doing your good work.

John Jantsch (28:33): I, I’ll keep

Tom Peters (28:34): Be on the crap. I’m saying I’m the old guy in this chair, , so you keep it up, my friend.

John Jantsch (28:38): Oh, I, I thank you so much for stopping by the Duct Tape, my marketing podcast, and hopefully we’ll run into you, uh, one of these days out there on the road.

Tom Peters (28:46): Okay, thanks.

John Jantsch (28:47): Hey, and one final thing before you go. You know how I talk about marketing strategy, strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that, what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the Marketing Strategy Assessment. You can find it @ marketingassessment.co. Co check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketingassessment.co. I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Outbound Squad, formerly Blissful Prospecting, hosted by Jason Bay. It’s brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Jason Bay is a leading sales expert and he talks with other leading sales experts to get you the information you need. I’ve recent episode, he talked about how much time you need to spend prospecting. Really, really eye opening. Check it out to listen to the outbound squad, wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Melanie Deziel. She’s a keynote speaker, award-winning branded content creator and the author of two books of the Content Fuel Framework, how to Generate Unlimited Story Ideas, and a new book we’re gonna talk about today. Prove it exactly how modern marketers Earn trust. So Melanie, welcome to the show.

Melanie Deziel (01:10): Hey, it’s good to be here.

John Jantsch (01:11): Your camera’s moving around. You’re bouncing around there.

Melanie Deziel (01:14): I know, I was so excited I bumped into it. .

John Jantsch (01:17): So I have to say this, not all listeners have ever done interviews or had podcasts guests, but you know, I’ve done thousands of them and I have to say your background info and topic sheet that you provided was one of the best ones I’ve ever seen, mainly because it gave me like all kinds of off topic stuff you stuff about you, stuff you didn’t wanna talk about. So we’re just gonna dive right into the stuff you don’t wanna talk about. Okay. .

Melanie Deziel (01:42): You know, I try, I always say I try to be the easiest guest to work with cuz I know it’s a lot of work to produce a podcast. You got a lot of homework you gotta do on the guests. So I feel like giving you all the links in the background kind of helps make that easier.

John Jantsch (01:54): Yeah. So now I’m just gonna, you put me on my soapbox now. So I’m also a guest on a lot of shows and I, you know, always hate those ones where somebody asks me to be a guest and then wants me to write the show for them. , you know, I’m sure you’ve done that same thing. I’m like, and I’m sure you know, you are a true journalist or journalist background and I, you know, I, that’s where I come from as well. And I think, you know, you’re supposed to write the interview , it’s called Journal. So I’m sorry where I’m wasting all of your time here. No. Talking about my pet peeves. So the subtitle of the book is exactly how modern marketers Earn Trust. So let’s just talk about trust first off, you know, where does that fit into the marketing journey today as an intentional action? I guess both from the buyer’s standpoint and maybe from the marketer’s point of view too.

Melanie Deziel (02:43): Yeah, so the reason we went with trust as the underpinning of the book is that we’re sort of looking at, you know, all the different KPIs that everybody is optimizing for. You know, whether you’re looking for sales or downloads or purchases, whatever the case may be, this realization that trust comes before any of those things, right? Like we don’t typically subscribe to accounts or you know, social profiles that we feel are maybe a little suspect. We don’t enter our card information on a website that we feel might not be trustworthy. We don’t hire and work with people that we don’t think we can, you know, can trust with our data or our business. And so it’s this realization that, you know, if trust comes first, then how can we optimize the other marketing activities that we’re doing? And you know, namely content being my background, how do we optimize that with the goal of earning trust in mind in a way that’s going to allow the rest of those KPIs to just kind of waterfall and come from that.

John Jantsch (03:37): Is there a sort of like a different height hurdle so to speak? I mean, if you’re selling a $59 product, couple reviews might do it, but if you’re selling a $10,000 coaching program for example, you know, isn’t trust like the most important element?

Melanie Deziel (03:54): So yeah, I think there’s, there’s a couple factors that go into it to create these different tiers. So the first one would be the price point, which you mentioned. Yeah, obviously, you know, I always say we all do a little bit more shopping around for expertise if we’re getting, you know, a medical procedure than we do for a loaf of bread, there’s, you know, there’s the price as well as the stakes, right? Some things are just the cost of making the wrong decision is so much higher. That’s true in like the B2B space. Any heavily regulated industry, you know, if you’re working in finance and insurance and technology, you know, there’s a big risk factor there. So we tend to see that trust becomes more important in, again, those high ticket purchases like a vehicle or you know, a house or something as well as a that that is really like the big important decisions in life that have potential major fallout.

(04:39): We definitely see that trust is gonna be even more important in those scenarios. But I mean I think honestly I do think it trickles down, at least on some level. I think we’ve probably all had the experience of you’re at like a discount store of some kind, a dollar store or something like that and you see a product on the shelf and you’re like, I know it’s clearly this is a knockoff of something that I usually buy, but I’m just not sure that’s gonna cut it, right? Like even though it’s maybe, you know, zip up plastic snack bags, you’re like, those just probably aren’t gonna stay shut, you know, or that tape is probably not gonna stick as well. So I think even in those small purchases, there’s that sort of unspoken quality of like, does this look trustworthy? Is this something I can believe?

John Jantsch (05:24): Yeah. You know what’s interesting I’ve found at least is, I mean every purchase involves some risk. Every decision to move forward involves some risk, right? And what I have found is trust us, two things, it lowers the risk for a lot of people, or at least in their mind, right? And when you lower the risk, you can actually raise the price because somebody’s like, oh, I know this one’s gonna work, I’ll pay more. I know this is gonna be a good experience, I’ll pay more. Or I trust that this will be a better experience, I’ll pay more. So do, do you find that there’s that direct correlation if something is more trustworthy, people are willing to pay more?

Melanie Deziel (05:57): A hundred percent. I think it depends too on what it is that they’re trusting you for. So one of the things we talk about in the book is like commitment claims where brands will claim to be sustainable or you know, they have a commitment to equal pay or the environment or you know, whatever they’re committed to on a values basis. And consumers are often like very often willing to pay more if they feel like they’re supporting a cause that’s important to them. It’s why you often see that the green or you know, lower carbon footprint or more sustainable recyclable, whatever it is, version of products tends to be a little more expensive. But because people feel like this is a value that’s important to me and I’m supporting that, I’m willing to make that extra payout. And I think we see that for a lot of different things, but particularly for commitment values where it’s like aligning my identity with something that this brand is committed to. Definitely willing to open the wallets there.

John Jantsch (06:51): You know, essentially the, if I wanna boil the book down to about, what’s it, five words, don’t tell it, show it. I mean it, you know, when people talk about trust, I mean it’s like, no, trust me Melanie, really, you can trust me, right? I mean that doesn’t go very far. So talk a little bit about that aspect of what you’re suggesting.

Melanie Deziel (07:09): Yeah, a hundred percent. Well that, that comes from the journalism background, which I’m sure that you were indoctrinated with that as well, right? We’re always told it’s not our job to tell the audience what to think or you know, what to do or how to feel about something. It’s our job to show them what’s going on and let them make a decision. So I feel like adopting that mindset from a marketing standpoint of saying, well, I could tell my audience that I deliver results. I could tell my audience that it’s a sustainable product. I could tell my audience all of these things, but how could I go one step further? How could I show them instead how can I demonstrate it? How can I, you know, corroborate that claim? How can I find additional ways to back it up so that it’s not just, you know, take my word for it because consumers don’t, they just don’t trust us. You know,

John Jantsch (07:55): You started to allude to this, but I’ll kind of bring out the numbers and let you walk through them. You in the book talk about three kinds of content that work well as evidence. So we’ve been talking about trust, but I guess before we get too much farther here, talk about the use of the word evidence as part of what you’re suggesting.

Melanie Deziel (08:16): Yeah, so we use, I use sort of like a light legal theme throughout. People have kind of sprinkled throughout because I think we’re all familiar with, you know, some of the catchphrases of like TV courtroom dramas and things like that. And you know, there’s always this like you’ve gotta bring the evidence, like where’s the evidence, right? Right. When you’re trying to convince a judge or jury, whoever that is, your consumers, you know, a buyer of something to make the decision you want them to make. So it is very similar to being sort of a lawyer in that, in that sense, right? And so the idea with evidence is we are making these claims and it’s our job to produce the evidence that helps our audience come to the right conclusion. You know, make the right verdict that they can trust us. And I think that mindset shift of thinking of yourself as that being your mission, like I have to win over a skeptical audience to, to pick the verdict that I think is right.

(09:04): I think that kind of mindset shift is helpful because it kind of just points you toward understanding, like I need to look for evidence in all the different places where it may be, you know, if you think of a courtroom drama, there’s always, you’ve got the human folks coming in, that’s the corroboration. You bring the demonstration, you know, photos or videos or you know, those kinds of things. And then you bring in experts who can educate the audience cuz what, you know, the average jury doesn’t know anything about blood spattered patterns or you know, whatever else, you know, evidence you’re bringing in.

John Jantsch (09:32): And they hope you don’t either, right?

Melanie Deziel (09:34): That’s true. Right. Well and hopefully, you know, hopefully none of our marketing involves blood spatter patterns, but hopefully the correlation is making sense there. That’s really what we’re trying to do. We’re trying to back up our claims with experts and witnesses. We’re trying to demonstrate all of that through stories and documentation and then we’re trying to educate the audience, you know, coach them and help them understand the information so that they can then come to that conclusion.

John Jantsch (09:57): Are you an agency owner, consultant or coach that works with business owners? Then I want to talk to you about adding a new revenue stream to your business that will completely change how you work with clients. For the first time ever, you can license and use the Duct Tape marketing system and methodology in your business through an upcoming three day virtual workshop. Give us three days and you’ll walk away with a complete system that changes how you think about your agency’s growth. The Duct Tape Marketing system is a turnkey set of processes for installing a marketing system that starts with strategy and moves to long-term retainer implementation engagements. We’ve developed this system by successfully working with thousands of businesses. Now you can bring it to your agency and benefit from all the tools, templates, systems and processes we’ve developed to find out when our next workshop is being held. Visit dtm.world/workshop. That’s dtm.world/workshop. So I got you, of course there I went down the evidence rabbit hold. So let’s circle back and say, what are the three types of con content then? That work is

Melanie Deziel (11:06): Evidence. Exactly. So that’s the corroboration piece that I just alluded to. So content that corroborates includes experts or witnesses. So experts are authorities on whatever it is that you’re claiming. So you know, if you’re making a sustainability claim for example, well then, I don’t know a researcher in that space or you know, if you’re talking about rainforest, maybe you know, someone who oversees the rainforest in that particular area could be an expert for that type of claim. Uh, witnesses, anytime you’re bringing in witnesses into your content, that’s gonna be the folks who have seen the truth of that claim themselves. So that could be past customers, could be, uh, testimonials from clients. It could be, you know, if the claim has to do with your employees or your commitment to the community or whatever else. Who are the people who can speak to the fact that those claims are true?

(11:51): And that mu again, much like in a courtroom courtroom, it’s your way of saying you don’t have to take my word for it. Take these folks word for it, right? I’ve got people to corroborate these claims. So that’s the first type. The second one is demonstration. So whereas a corroboration is sort of, you don’t take my word for it, you have these folks word demonstration is, you don’t have to take my word for it, see with your own eyes like you can see it yourself. The best sort of example to, to bring it to mind immediately is every infomercial or like, you know, direct QVC style product, right? Where they have like the side by side showing the two products doing what they do. And one is clearly better. You don’t have to believe me that this product, you know, has more suction and cleans your carpet better. You can see from the dirt left on the other carpet that ours does a better job, right? So,

John Jantsch (12:36): And Bo Bounty, I’m thinking of bounty towels like

Melanie Deziel (12:39): Go, you know, there’s none ready. Yeah. Or especially like cleaners of all kinds when it’s like, you know, the half of a stain treated with one thing and half with the other. So you know, that may not, that’s a little catchy. It might not be exactly what we want to do with our brand, but the sort of like a B2B equivalent is you often see a demo of a product, right? And that demo is saying, you know, we’re telling you this is easy to use, that it has a simple interface here, let’s walk through the product, let’s show you how simple it is. Or those comparison check mark grids we are all familiar with that are often on a pricing page, right? Here’s what you get with them and here’s many more check marks of what you get with us. So it’s really your way of saying, look, you don’t have to take our word for it, like we’re gonna show you, we’re gonna bring it to you in the form of stories and of some sort of documentation that proves our point.

John Jantsch (13:21): And then did we get the third one?

Melanie Deziel (13:23): The third one is education. Okay, so this one we again, we hinted at before, but the education pillar is this like acknowledgement that in many cases the audience that we are trying to convince doesn’t have enough information to make that conclusion at all. So in addition to corroborating our claims and demonstrating our claims, we probably need to provide education around those claims as well. So places where you wanna look out for this is anytime that you know, your buyer may not be your end user, right? So it may be some executive that’s signing off on use of a new software, but the engineers or the project managers, right, they’re gonna be the ones using it. So this executive may not know how convenient it is that you integrate with such and such product or that it has this feature or that. So you need to provide that education to help them understand why those claims are important.

(14:10): This is also true if you have like a first time buyer situation, love to give the example of like first time home buyers or you’re buying a wedding dress or you know, some sort of a hot tub maybe or a boat like someone probably hasn’t bought that before, doesn’t have much experience in purchasing that thing. And so they’re gonna need some context for this claim you’ve made that it’s, I don’t know that the paint is reflective, like is that good or bad? Like should it be reflective? Like how does one measure reflectiveness, right? So kind of you need to provide that background and education to allow them to make sense of your claims in the first place.

John Jantsch (14:45): So what are some simple ways that you see, I mean, for example, I see people on websites as seen in these publications or these, you know, brands that you have heard of. Are all of our customers, I mean are those, you know, do those fit into, you know, this prove it category

Melanie Deziel (15:03): A hundred percent. So that’s corroboration. And I do think that corroboration is often the easiest one for us to turn to. As long as you’re an established business, then you probably have corroboration that’s easily at your fingertips, you know, past clients or as you said, press mentions, you could do awards that you’ve won. You know, you can kind of bring in all of that outside proof to say, look, you know, we’re telling you we’re great and we’re telling you that, you know, this is a famous product, but hey look, we’ve been featured on all of these TV shows or in all of these newspapers. Um, this is something we see a lot with restaurants, you know, if they say like, reviewed in the New York Times or books often say like Wall Street Journal bestseller, right? That’s the corroboration. Like I’m telling you my book is good, but you don’t have to believe me cuz like the Wall Street Journal set. So, so those kinds of things can be really helpful. And again, I think most businesses, as long as it’s established and has some sort of history at all, has past clients or you know, employees or colleagues and partners that you could be calling on to provide some corroboration.

John Jantsch (15:59): And you also talk about certain types of claims that businesses make frequently make that just flat out need proof that nobody’s, it’s not gonna be a benefit claim. It’s not gonna do you any good if, unless you can show proof. What are a couple examples of claims that fit into that category?

Melanie Deziel (16:16): Yeah, so there’s a couple different categories of claims that like most businesses are making in some capacity. So a competence claim would be one of those, right? We’re all talking about how we do well at whatever it is we do, right? We’re pitching something, we’re gonna deliver these results, we’re gonna achieve this outcome, right? That’s a competence claim. I know what I’m doing. And those can often be really well corroborated, you know, again, by past clients or something similar. We also have comparison claims, which we kind of hinted at before. So this is like, how do we stack up to the competition or to other solutions that are available or to not doing anything at all. Like what is, what is our offer in comparison to the others and how do we perform? We talked about commitment claims a little bit early on, and that could be, again, commitment to your customers, commitment to your employees, commitment to a value or a cause.

(17:01): Those often need quite a bit of evidence, even more so than some of the others. Again, because it’s so tied to identity. If someone is, you know, they pride themselves on, you know, equal rights or you know, pay equality or sustainability, like this is something that feels core to their identity and the level of betrayal that comes when, you know, we’ve all seen the fallout, the PR scandals when supposedly in favor of a particular cause and it comes out that the truth is not so. So those claims definitely need a lot of proof. The others would be convenience, which I think convenience claims are actually some of the easiest to prove when we’re talking about convenience claims. That’s things like speed, ease of use, affordability, because most convenience claims can be quantified, which makes them really easy to measure, measure and really easy to prove, right?

(17:50): It either costs less or it costs more. Like there’s a number there, right? It’s very objective, you know, it’s either faster than that or it has a slower timestamp. Like that’s pretty objective. So convenience claims tend to be, tend to be pretty, pretty easy to prove. But on the other end of the spectrum, I think our connection claims and connection is really about the, it’s the relationship side of things. That’s, you know, the, you’re not a number, you’re a name the Olive Garda when you’re here, you’re family, right? That that idea that they have a deep connection either to their customers or to the, the local community is another common one. Like our connection with our community. So those are often a little bit harder to prove if only because there’s no officially recognized connection scale that I’m aware of, right? So it’s more of more subjective in many cases. And that means you have to rely more on corroboration and storytelling of that connection to try to

John Jantsch (18:41): Prove it out. My father-in-law’s favorite restaurant was Olive Garden, and I can just tell you that I went to Olive Garden a lot more than I care to and I didn’t feel like family there. Sorry.

Melanie Deziel (18:50): Oh no, .

John Jantsch (18:53): All right. What about throwaway claims get pitched by the number one XYZ award-winning this and leading X globally all the time. To me, I don’t know, maybe there is some proof behind them, but they just feel like throwaways to me.

Melanie Deziel (19:09): So that’s exactly that, that is a claim without proof and that’s what we are trying to avoid. And that’s honestly, I feel like that’s the trap, right? Because it’s very easy, particularly if you’re, you know, you’re writing copy, it’s easy to get carried away and just start throwing adjectives left and right, you know, best, greatest, whatever. But it creates exactly that feeling that you’re talking about. It’s that feeling of like says who according to who. Like how do I know that? And I think that’s a natural skepticism that we’ve seen. It’s increasing every year just getting higher and higher because of the amount of throwaway claims like that that have no proof whatsoever. People have to default to skepticism. Yeah. And I think it, it is really an opportunity for marketers that wanna stand out and kind of be a step above that to proactively be providing proof of those claims so that you’re not giving people that sort of icky, you know, taste in your mouth leftover .

John Jantsch (19:59): So what about, I work with a lot of startups and they don’t have any case studies, they don’t have any testimonials, they really don’t have any verifiable evidence that what they do, you know, provides the result that they’re promising. How do they kinda walk that line?

Melanie Deziel (20:16): Yeah, so one of the things I think is that even if you feel like you don’t have personally like case studies that you can call on, there were almost always tangential or related case studies. So I’ll give you an example, a start that my husband and I founded a late last year is helping small businesses. It was a group buying service marketplace for small businesses. Now that sort of thing didn’t exist. So to your point, we couldn’t say here’s some successful examples. We were trying to build it. Um, however we could point to the fact that, you know, know associations have for a long time offered discounts to their members that a lot of membership, you know, perks are really just combining the buying power of their membership and negotiating discounts in response. We could point to GPOs group purchasing organizations as an example of this sort of model that worked and pull experts and studies and case studies from those spaces that sort of support the need for, you know, where the gap is. And I think a lot of startups can do something similar. You know, you’re telling stories of people who have not had success because your solution didn’t exist, or people who would’ve had success had your solution existed. Or people in similar industries who can say, I wish that this existed for XYZ industry as well. I think that kind of corroboration can actually be super powerful because it’s showing the white space

John Jantsch (21:32): And that business is called the convoy. Where can people find that? Your grape buying

Melanie Deziel (21:36): Business? The convoy.com. So if you’re a small business independent business freelancer, the convoy.com offers you free of charge discounts on products and services that you need to run your business, just trying to support those small businesses that keep our country running.

John Jantsch (21:50): So I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing podcast again to talk about, prove it. You wanna tell people, I know they can find the book anywhere, but you wanna tell anywhere else you want, invite people to connect with you?

Melanie Deziel (22:01): Yeah, well, hey, I always say my home base is my website, story fuel.co. so.co story Fuel is where you’ll find information about all the books where you could buy ’em, how to work with me. You could find my social links if you wanna connect with me online somewhere, and you’ll find all that@storyfuel.com.

John Jantsch (22:17): Do you get tripped up on the.co versus uh.com? I had had one website that I really wanted the url and so I bought the CO and every time I went there, I typed in.com. No matter

Melanie Deziel (22:28): What, no, I, I don’t because it’s been so long at this point. But yeah, it is always tough. You know, sometimes at this point in the internet, a lot of the good URLs are taken. You’ve gotta innovate a little bit.

John Jantsch (22:39): abs. Absolutely. Well Mallows, great catching up with you again and hopefully we will see you one of these days soon again out there on the road.

Melanie Deziel (22:46): Hope so. Thanks for letting me share my story.

John Jantsch (22:48): Hey, and one final thing before you go. You know how I talk about marketing strategy, strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that, what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the Marketing Strategy Assessment. You can find it@ marketingassessment.co. Check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketing assessment.co. I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Marketing Against the Grain, hosted by Kip Bodner and Keion Flanigan is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Look, if you wanna know what’s happening now in marketing, what’s ahead and how you can stay ahead of the game, this is the podcast for you, host and HubSpot’s, CMO and SVP of Marketing. Kip and Keion share their marketing expertise unfiltered in the details of truth and like nobody tells it. In fact, a recent episode, they titled Half Baked Marketing Ideas They Got Down In the Weeds, talked about some outside of the box campaigns with real businesses. Listen to marketing, its grain wherever you get your podcast.

(00:54): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Martha McSally. McSally is a compelling example of overcoming adversity and fear to achieve extraordinary feats losing her dad at the age 12. In surviving sexual abuse and assault, she persevered to become the first woman in US history to fly a fighter jet in combat and command a fighter squadron in combat. Martha deploys six times to the Middle East and Afghanistan flying 325 combat hours in the A 10 attack plane ironing the Bronze Star and six air medals. She’s also a former United States representative and a former United States Senator from Arizona. She’s also the author of a book, dare to Fly, simple Lessons in Never Giving Up. So Martha, welcome to the show.

Martha McSally (01:47): Thanks for having me on,

John Jantsch (01:48): John. So I, in preparation for this, I read an article in popular Mechanics that said, why the A 10 Thunderbolt is such a badass plane . So tell us why it is such a badass fund. Because that was the plane, in fact, I think affectionately referred to as the warthog is a plane that you flew.

Martha McSally (02:07): It is, it is such a badass plane. And I picked it, I had a choice of all the fighters F 15 and F 16, F 15 E, F 11, and a 10. And I picked it. I know your audio listeners won’t be able to see this, but here’s the A 10, it’s a single seat. It’s extremely survivable. It’s got look at all these weapon pylons on there. It was built around this gun and people can look it up on the internet, but this is a 30 millimeter bullet. There’s 1,174 rounds of this just for preference point. This is a smart water one liter bottle. So, um, it’s entire mission is close air support. And so it was actually built to go after Soviet tanks. Initially the intent was being like right there on the front line and the close air support mission is troops are in close combat with the bad guys.

(02:53): The risk of fracture side is high, often on the move, you know, very complex, confusing circumstances on the ground and they’re calling for air cover to help ’em. So it was built to be extremely heavy in firepower. Also a very survivable, I mean we can lose all our electrics, all our hydraulics, one engine and have literally holes in the plane and still be able to fly back to friendly territory. It’s a bit of a metaphor I think, of my life , but like really taking a hit and you know, just continuing to survive and it’s just an incredible, you know, just the mission. I mean we often would take off in Afghanistan. I was commanding my squadron over there. We were providing 24 hour coverage to the troops on the ground. We would often take off on a routine combat mission, which is like an oxymoron. We would have maps of the entire country of Afghanistan and you would have some American troops under fire got ambushed. They need help. So we would be given a radio frequency, a grid coordinate and a call sign and told, go help these guys now. And that’s, you know, we would just have to figure it out and help these guys survive to live, to fight another day and get home to their family. So it’s an incredible mission. I’m super honored to have flown it and commanded a squadron.

John Jantsch (04:05): Well I don’t wanna geek out on this too much, but I’m just envisioning like how do you instruct somebody how to fly a plane with one seat?

Martha McSally (04:12): It’s a great question. So when I went through training, there were also no simulators and there were no two seat models. So your first flight is solo. Now we were all pilots. So we had gone through a year of, you know, training that everybody goes through just to earn their pilot wings, which is just, you know, the essentials of being a pilot. And then we go through another introductory course to be a fighter pilot. Technically we’re attack pilots, but we’re kind of grouped into fighter pilots. And then you show up, I’m not kidding, they give you a, you know, a binder like, you know, multiple three, four inches thick, all the systems of the airplane, all the procedures, all the contingencies. You basically need to know how to build the plane and deal with anything. And then you take a lot of tests, academics, you then, you know, go through different procedures of dealing with engine fire on takeoff and you have to be able to, you know, say exactly what you’re going to do.

(05:06): But I mean, we’re the superpower, when we went through the training, there was no simulator. So we would sit in these little cockpits that were like mock cockpits, but the switches didn’t work, the plane wasn’t flying and you just had to show that you could, you know, turn the right engine off if the fires on the left engine. And then later on in my time flying the A 10, I was an instructor pilot. So you then are, I’m using my hands here, but you know, your audio listeners can’t see this. But then picture your taxiing out with your instructor pilot next to you and you know, then fly on their wing and what they call a chase position. So mm-hmm , when you become an instructor pilot, you flying your plane has to be kind of like people, you know, you think about when you drive to work and you almost, it’s almost autonomic like it’s just happening.

(05:48): You’re like, how did I get here? Cause you’ve done it so many times. You can’t be using a lot of conscious energy on you flying your plane as an instructor. You’ve just gotta do it. And then you’re monitoring what, what the student’s doing and providing feedback to them. But we used to joke, there’s a lot of gallows humor in the military cuz what we do is obviously extremely dangerous. We’d be like, look, if something goes wrong, you got the rest of your life to figure out how to, you know, which may be just an hour or so, you know, depending on the situation.

John Jantsch (06:16): Yeah. I’m curious what drove you to join the Air Force?

Martha McSally (06:20): Well, you know, I grew up a youngest of five kids in a upper middle class family. And, you know, super blessed to have stability and my dad came from tough circumstances and served in the Navy and used his GI bill get a good education. He was very driven to make a better life for us kids. And he very suddenly passed away when I was 12. And it just, it really rocked my world. Tough age anyway. And now my mom went back to, you know, single mom, five kids, went back to school and back to work. And so I was just trying to find my path. My dad, before he passed away had was in between heart attacks in the hospital and I got to visit with him. And among the things we talked about, he told me to make him proud. And then he, you know, he passed the next day and it just, it was a really difficult time.

(07:05): And so I was sort of driven to do something meaningful with my life. I wouldn’t have called it that at the time, but, you know, make your father proud, you know, after he died. And dealing with the grief though, and the, just the challenges with all that. But I was looking for an opportunity to get a good education, not saddle my mom with debt. You know, I was a little rebellious. I was trying to channel my energy into something positive and, you know, you pay back in service. I thought the challenge would be good for me. Again, I wouldn’t have used these words as a 17 year old, but I mean, anybody who’s got 17 year old kids, you know what I’m talking about. Like, I had no idea what I was doing. I just decided to go to the Air Force Academy. I wanted to be a doctor.

(07:44): I didn’t wanna fly. I was motion sick. And I mean off I went totally clueless as to what I was really getting into. And when I got there, I found out I was in the ninth class with women at the Air Force Academy. And I found out that just because I was a woman, it was against the law at the time for women to be fighter pilots, . And I, again, I had no desire to fly, but when I heard that, it just pissed me off and I channeled my rebellious spirit and I was like, well, that’s exactly what I’m gonna do. I’m gonna be the person one fighter pilot. And everybody laughed at me, but I just kept this dream in my heart and you know, just kept living where I was planted and I was like, this is what I’m gonna do someday. And it took 10 years and I didn’t have anything to do with the change, but I was in the right place at the right time when the, when the doors opened.

John Jantsch (08:28): So this book has a lot of stories from your life, obviously. But you wouldn’t call it a memoir, would you?

Martha McSally (08:34): No. Uhuh look, I’m, I’m at halftime here, you know, . And so I don’t, it’s not an autobiography. I just feel like I’ve had some unique experiences and you know, the reader may never fly in a a 10 jet. That’s not the point. The point is, what lessons did I learn that apply to the reader, right? And, you know, I’m doing keynote speaking engagements as well. Like, these lessons apply to all of us as humans. How do we overcome our fear? I didn’t, I wasn’t born with the kind of courage to fly in combat. I had to make decisions along the way. The term I use is choose to do things af afraid. Courage is a choice in my view. And you then build your confidence and your capabilities and then you grow and expand and then you create a muscle memory for like an athlete of courage instead of a muscle memory of fear.

(09:22): So that’s just one example. You know, if nuggets I, you know, share from the unique journeys I’ve had, obviously people can, you see cool stories of flying in combat and different things in my journey, but it’s not about me. It’s about what does that mean for you, the reader? And how can you soar through turbulence and difficult times and persevere to achieve your dreams and never give up and find different creative ways in order to, you know, be whatever you wanna be in life. And so I share with humor a little self-deprecation going on there. Some of these little nuggets along the way on things like, you know, courage and perseverance and agility and overcoming adversity and things like that.

John Jantsch (10:02): Are you an agency owner, consultant or coach that works with business owners? Then I want to talk to you about adding a new revenue stream to your business that will completely change how you work with clients. For the first time ever, you can license and use the Duct Tape Marketing system and methodology in your business through an upcoming three day virtual workshop. Give us three days and you’ll walk away with a complete system that changes how you think about your agency’s growth. The Duct Tape Marketing System is a turnkey out of processes for installing a marketing system that starts with strategy and moves to long-term retainer implementation engagements. We’ve developed this system by successfully working with thousands of businesses. Now you can bring it to your agency and benefit from all the tools, templates, systems and processes we’ve developed to find out when our next workshop is being held. Visit dtm.world/workshop, that’s dtm.world/workshop.

(11:03): So you’ve broken the book, the chapters really are essential lessons you already talked about. Make someone proud. You know, that’s one of, one of the lessons here was probably my favorite and it kind of reminded me of my father, um, don’t walk by the problem. It feels like that has sort of a military in there. My dad was an army officer and he would always say, look, if you see something that needs fixing, fix it. If it doesn’t paint it . And it just felt very sort of military to me. So talk a little bit about don’t walk by the problem, how that’s,

Martha McSally (11:30): Uh, for sure that’s part of the, one of the values that I learned, you know, in my family. But then in the military where if you see something that’s wrong, what are you gonna do about it? Don’t be a bystander. There’s a lot of people just like, well that’s not my problem, but just don’t walk by that problem. You know, much to the frustration of people who have served with me and loved ones in my life. I can’t walk by a problem, you know, I can’t. And whether that is, you know, in the book I tell the story of my eight year battle with the Pentagon over this stupid policy they had that was totally denigrating to our women serving in Saudi Arabia. They had to, basically, they were treated like Saudi women, which is essentially property, you know, at the time. And, you know, couldn’t drive, sit in the backseat of the car where a burka essentially, you know, black Muslim gown and headscarf.

(12:16): And it, I just thought it was wrong. It didn’t apply to me, but I just felt this conviction that it needed to be fixed. And I was in a unique position as an officer, as a, you know, pioneering fighter pilot where I had the ear of people and I just felt like it was part of my responsibility to try and bring about this change. I never would’ve imagined it was an eight year battle. I tell the story, you know, in the book, but you know, in the end, put my career on the line, filed a lawsuit against the Secretary of Defense, Martha McSally versus Donald Rumsfeld. Not a great career move, but my oath of offices to the Constitution when I raised my right hand. It’s not to stupid, you know, policies of the people over me. And so I pull out of that this lesson of like, don’t walk by a problem.

(12:59): If you see something’s wrong, do something about it. Do your homework. By the way, those of us who are change Adrians and entrepreneurs, we often kind of wanna just rail against it, but we may not even know what we’re talking about. So you gotta really do a little research, do some fact finding. What if you’re a Colby person? You gotta have those fact finding skills and be creative about how you bring about the change. Find some wingman and allies and just don’t ever give up. And you one person, you can make a difference in your community, in the country and whatever it is you’re in your company, whatever it is you feel like might need to be fixed, just don’t walk by it. Don’t be a bystander.

John Jantsch (13:36): So you mentioned wingman already. I was gonna say that the book is, has plenty of metaphors that I’ve taken from that are easy like takeoffs and you know, wingman and whatnot. So, so talk about a little bit about the wingman because you have a perspective in there. I mean, I think everybody thinks about I need a wingman. Yeah, but I think you have a perspective about the wingman actually being, you know, being a good wingman as well. Wingman. So I think that, I think a lot of people miss that aspect.

Martha McSally (14:02): Yes. Right. The wingman mentality is, even though we do fly the plane by ourselves, we never fly into combat solo. We always have someone on our wing, either one or even more. We could be flying in a four ship. And the whole mentality of a wingman, which is great in life, is we have what’s called mutual support for each other. We back each other up, we have each other’s backs. If I’m talking to the guy, I’m a controller on the ground, I’m looking at my map I may be getting shot at. So my wingman’s job is to keep his or her head on a swivel and to call out any threats. I actually give authority to my wingman to tell, you know, bulldog one break left flares missile launch north, and I will do what my wingman tells me to do. I don’t say again like, I don’t know, did you mean left or right?

(14:47): Cause by that time the missile hits you, right? So you don’t just gain that authority overnight, obviously you have to build that trust and have a, that trusted environment to literally put each, you know, put our lives in each other’s hands. But this is for life, you know, asking yourself, who are your wing men in life? And they can be mentors. For me, some of my wing men were women who flew planes in World War ii. They were amazing examples for me during my journey when I really didn’t have anyone who had similar experiences to me. And so they can be people who have gone before you and you don’t have to reinvent, you know, something. They can share their wisdom with you. They can be your peers, they can be again, in life. This can be your loved one, your spouse, you know, like your dog for crying out loud.

(15:32): There’s very wingman in your life, right? That are actually, you know, helping you to keep perspective, right? To keep things, keep yourself kind of centered. Again, making good decisions and not running yourself down. But then also as you mentioned, who are you a wingman to, right? Who’s relying on you or who could be relying on you, but maybe you’re not offering yourself to be available, you know, as a wingman to provide that kind of support in business, in life and community. You know, who needs you right now? Like you have a lot to offer. And who might it be? Is it someone in your neighborhood that maybe you haven’t even got to know who’s just got a diagnosis for something that you’ve actually been through already? Like maybe you can help them in that way. Is it a young entrepreneur, you know, who’s doing a startup and you’ve learned a lot of lessons along the way and so you take that time to bring up that next generation. It takes time for sure, but we need wingman and we need to be wingman. So I think it’s an important question to ask.

John Jantsch (16:30): You’re the first woman to do X as we’ve mentioned several times, I imagine any first woman, any first person to do X experiences a tremendous amount of gender based discrimination. You talk about it in the book Yeah. In some pretty ugly ways that you experienced it. So is it right to ask, what did you learn from that? What do you wanna share? What do you want other people to learn from your experience?

Martha McSally (16:54): Well, let me first say I am so grateful for the opportunities that I had to serve my country in uniform. I’m grateful for my experiences in the Air Force. I was just tremendous to be able to serve with amazing people. The vast majority of people I serve with were, were incredible people who are putting their lives on the line and are a part of teams doing incredible things to keep our country safe. There were some real challenges in breaking barriers. And honestly, it started at the top, you know, we had a chief of staff of the Air Force who at the time the law was being debated whether it should change who was testifying before Congress saying you’d rather pick a less qualified man over a more qualified woman. And so this is the leader. And so then, you know, Congress appealed the law and then the Secretary of Defense changed the policy, took like a couple more years, but he had to decide whether he was gonna resign or implement it.

(17:48): But when you, you start, leaders create the culture, right? Leaders create kind of the opportunity of what kind of values and behavior is going to be okay or not gonna be okay. So, you know, it started obviously with him given license to maybe people who, I honestly, I think there’s a lot of insecurity. Again, the vast majority of guys, they, especially the ones who had daughters by the way, you know, they were like, look, if you can fly the jet and you can shoot the gun. Like just, we need people to be able to do their job. This isn’t about whether you have ovaries or not, if, you know, if you’ve seen Top Gun, you know, obviously there’s exaggerations there, but it is a bit of a, you know, it’s a, it’s a justing environment, right? With just the, you know, the dynamics within a fighter squadron.

(18:30): So I went in eyes wide open. I knew what I was breaking through. I knew it was going to be lonely. I knew it was gonna be difficult there. I did experience along the way, you know, just hostility and harassment and assault that wasn’t associated with that. That was, you know, but there are ex, you know, lots of experiences, unfortunately, of women and men experiencing sexual assault in society and in the military. It shouldn’t be tolerated. I’m not alone in having those experiences. I share them, not so people will feel bad for me, but so that people will see these awful things can happen to you, but they don’t define you. And in fact, I think they propelled me and had me grow and I became stronger actually through this adversity. Not that I would wish it on anyone, but it propelled me to, you know, stand my ground on like that berka battle in Saudi Arabia.

(19:17): I think some of my awful experiences like, no, don’t tell me to put on a beca like not even me or any do that. So I, you know, I feel like I made a decision where adversity, I was gonna, I had to heal through difficult. I’m not trying to undermine, you know, going through trauma. I had my own journey there. But I always looked at it like, this is an opportunity for me to grow and to make me stronger and to propel me on a path, not just to survive in spite of it, but in fact because of it, you know, it equips me even more. So, you know, again, I share those lessons. A lot of people have been through some type of trauma or adversity, men and women who are listening. And I just wanna encourage you like, turn the flashlight on. Be honest about it.

(19:58): It’s, you’re potentially still like limping because of what you went through. Maybe you’re just running from it. I, when I, you know, give speeches, I talk about like reduce the drag on your plane, you know, we, it’s gonna, it takes energy out of you. If you are in a place of anger or unforgiveness towards something awful that happened to you, you gotta free yourself from that. That’s about you. It’s not about any perpetrator not to excuse behavior, but you know, your perpetrator’s not thinking about you. So why you, you know, wasting today thinking about them and letting them continue to hold you back. So I talk about these types of things in a way that I hope really equips people to find their own freedom.

John Jantsch (20:32): If somebody reads your book or hears you speak, what, what for you would be a home run for them to take away with?

Martha McSally (20:39): Well, for the home run would be that whatever is holding them back in life, whether it’s their fears, whether it’s they had a dream and they found some obstacles and it stopped them and they felt like giving up. Or they had people telling them you can’t do something that you know in your heart you wanna do, or you’ve been through adversity that is impacted you in a negative way that’s holding you back. That there’s some nugget in there from the experiences I share and practical takeaways that I share, that you would find a path of freedom that you would say you’d find new people to listen to. It could tell you that you can fulfill your dreams and be what you want in life. And that’s all aspects, that’s business. You know, career, that’s personal relationship or your dreams are. Don’t take no for an answer. Don’t let, don’t let any of those things hold you back. And you’re clear for takeoff, the sky is truly your limits.

John Jantsch (21:30): So you inspire audiences and your book inspires audiences. Where do you get your inspiration these days?

Martha McSally (21:36): Well, I’ve been inspired from so many people that have helped me along the way for sure. I try to continue to be around people that are doing amazing things in their own lives that continue to push me so that I can grow and learn. I never stop growing. If you’re not growing, you’re dying. And so I look for that, like spiritually, emotionally. I mean, I’m a voracious reader, you know, leaders are readers. So I’m constantly looking for what do I, you know, what else can I learn? What inspires me? And I’m sure you’ve seen this, John, you go down a rabbit hole where you didn’t, you know, you might read one book that then makes you look into a topic a little bit more. And so just being open for inspiration, divine inspiration and inspiration that comes through others and every single day, waking up with that approach of what’s gonna happen today, that’s gonna be amazing. Some difficult things may happen, but I’m gonna learn something from everything. And you know, I’m certainly not perfect in the execution of this by any stretch, but I really try to surround myself with people and listen to people who are inspiring me and pushing me and then I continue to grow for the next chapters.

John Jantsch (22:43): Well, I want to thank you for stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing podcast. You wanna invite people to connect with you. Obviously your book will be, is available anywhere you buy books, but uh, any anywhere else you wanna share?

Martha McSally (22:53): Yes, social media. I’m at Martha McSally. I was Dare to Fly Simple Lessons and Never Giving Up. My website is martha mcsally.com. If you wanna, you know, book me to come be a keynote speaker. Be honored to be your wigman for you and your team and look forward to hearing from everybody. Thanks for the opportunity to share a little bit today, John.

John Jantsch (23:11): Well, thanks again, Martha for stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast and hopefully we’ll run into you again soon. No one of these days out there on the road.

Martha McSally (23:17): Absolutely. Take care.

John Jantsch (23:19): Hey, and one final thing before you go. You know how I talk about marketing strategy, strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that, what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the Marketing Strategy Assessment. You can find it @ marketingassessment.co.. Check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketing assessment.co. I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Marketing Against the Grain, hosted by Kip Bodner and Keion Flanigan is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Look, if you wanna know what’s happening now in marketing, what’s ahead and how you can stay ahead of the game, this is the podcast for you, host and HubSpot’s, CMO and SVP of Marketing. Kip and Keion share their marketing expertise unfiltered in the details of truth and like nobody tells it. Fact. A recent episode, they titled Half Baked Marketing Ideas They Got Down In the Weeds, talked about some outside of the box campaigns with real businesses. Listen to marketing, its grain wherever you get your podcasts.

(00:55): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Jason Feifer. He’s the editor in chief of Entrepreneur Magazine and the author of a book we’re gonna talk about today, build for Tomorrow, an action plan for embracing change, adapting fast and future proofing your career. So Jason, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. So I’ve always wondered what is an editor in chief at a magazine Actually do it. It is confusing. I mean all of media is confusing to people. I totally understand that. So I mean, look, it’s a little bit different at every publication, but generally speaking, an editor in chief is responsible for the editorial direction of either the whole brand or you know, at least certain parts of it. And in my case, that means that I am directly overseeing the day to day operations of the print magazine.

(01:54): I also am very involved in the editorial direction of digital, though we have a digital director who’s involved, who’s really running that day to day. And then I’m involved in very high level decisions about the brand more broadly. And I, I work very closely with the ad sales team. I’m often on calls meeting with clients and I’m also the face of the brand. So I’ll go out and represent the brand on television or radio or in podcasts like this. So that’s, you know, that’s what it means. Basically I’m, you know, part of, I’m part a director of brand, I don’t know, connection. I’m trying to come up with corporate language here, but I don’t, you know, I don’t really know. But basically I’m the guy who decides what we should be covering and why and the tone and feel of the brand. Yeah, so you might be the one saying, you know what, sometime in the next quarter we need to do an issue on AI or something like that.

(02:46): Yeah, that’s exactly right. And then what are those stories exactly gonna be and who should we assign to write them? And now that they’ve come in, let me read through that, you know, and give feedback and work with the other editors to make sure that everything is really up to stuff. And also make sure that, that I’ve set the tone for, you know, well if we’re gonna do a thing about AI then we gotta make sure we have a nice mix of these stories and who’s gonna be on the cover and now I gotta go negotiate with some publicist about which celebrity we’re gonna put on and on. And you were, uh, as if Memory serves me, you were a fast company in that capacity at some point as well. I was not as editor in chief, I was a senior editor of Fast Company.

(03:21): Yeah. So that, you know, sort of in the middle of the totem pole there. Okay. So let’s talk about your book. I’m gonna jump right into the middle of it. You talk about change, which essentially that’s what the book’s about, right? Part of the subtitle Embracing Change, you, you talk about it in four phases, panic, where do I have it? Panic, adaption, new Normal wouldn’t go back. And it’s funny, but as I read that component, I was like, well that’s exactly what we’ve been doing the last two years, isn’t it? It sure is and, and I, and that’s exactly where the observation came from, was watching how everybody went through the same change at the same time that started the Pandemic and then all I think went through the same emotional journey but all diverged quite radically in how they responded to it. Yeah. What’s interesting about that is, I mean, rarely do we get the chance to experience that so sharply and maybe in such a quick timeframe, right?

(04:12): I mean often, I mean, change is happening to us all the time, but in sometimes it’s just so slow we don’t really perceive it. So, so that was a great exam. I mean that was a great sort of laboratory, if you will, for, you know, how it actually happens, wasn’t it? Yeah, it sure was. And it was incredibly instructive. I had gone into the pandemic thinking a lot about this subject and I had come to this conclusion that the thing that drives success more than anything else is somebody’s ability to be adaptive. But I hadn’t quite gotten down to what they’re doing and my big theory of the case, and that really came because of the pandemic. And in particular, funny enough, it came because, you know, I had mentioned a minute ago that I have to go on all these or have to, is not the right phrase.

(04:59): It is my pleasure to go on all these sales calls with entrepreneurs, sales team talking to clients. And I was being asked all the time during those calls, especially in the first year of the pandemic, well what is, you know, what’s on entrepreneurs’ minds and what are they doing and how are they reacting? And because people kept asking me, I was trying to come up with a kind of simple narrative of what it is that I was seeing. And as I told this story over and over again, it just sort of coalesced into this little four phases of change thing. And as I said it, people responded very positively and said, you know what, that makes a lot of sense. And I started to share it with entrepreneurs who were going through major changes or had gone through major changes and they said, yeah, I think you’re really right about that.

(05:40): So I started to try to map on top of that all the lessons and insights that I was gathering from people and it just felt like a real progression of, of what the experience was. And I came over with a couple things from that, but one of the big ones was how incredibly powerful it is to be able to take observations and turn it into narrative form. That when you’re trying to share insights and information with people, whether it’s in a sales call or a book or anything in between, being able to map insights on top of a story is incredibly valuable because it helps people understand conceptually what you’re talking about. And it also helps them find themselves within your story. And that’s where I think you can really hook them and start to have more interesting conversations. Well, you probably have become possibly become more aware of that in the editorial copy that you write, that you read I’m guessing, is you start looking for those, like where’s the insight in this?

(06:39): Oh yeah, all the time. I mean, I am obsessed with how my theory of media for whatever it’s worth is that I don’t think that anybody wants to read a magazine. I don’t think that anyone wants to read a book. I don’t think that anyone wants to listen to a podcast. I think what they want is valuable information that they can use and or a useful experience, right? Right. I mean, sometimes people are just doing things for entertainment and that’s fine, it’s an escape or whatever the case is. But you have to be aware that the medium by itself is not the reason that people come. Nobody picks up the magazine because they love a magazine. They pick up a magazine because they love useful information and a magazine just happens to be a good delivery mechanism for them. So I try to take that insight and really remind myself of it on a minute by minute basis.

(07:25): So if I’m having a conversation with somebody or if I’m, you know, if I’m on stage being asked questions, I understand that even if you’re asking a question about me, you’re really asking a question about yourself. So I better in my answer, make sure that I’m taking insights and then turning them back and making them useful to you. Um, it’s, it’s why, you know, if you ask me on this podcast, you’re welcome to. So sort of personal question I’ll answer it. But what I’ll try to do is instantly search for the way in which whatever you asked me, whatever I’m talking about myself, how can that offer some kind of insight for an audience? Like how could this be useful to you? Cause again, I’m thinking just like, I don’t think that you care about picking up a magazine. I don’t think you care about me or there’s no reason that somebody’s listening to this right now because they care about me.

(08:09): What they care about is that I might say something that’s useful to them and that’s great. That’s exactly how we all should think. So I and everybody else who creates any kind of content or anything that people consume, we should be very aware of that at all times. So, so now we are going to continue our show on cynicism. , it’s not cynicism it’s, but you know, it’s funny but people sometimes interpret it like that, but it’s not cynicism, it’s optimism. It what it is. It’s a belief that you have an audience that is deeply engaged in something powerful to them, right? Everybody is trying to build something for themselves and they should. And so what they’re doing is they’re going through the world looking for insights that can be useful to them. And we, we, as the people in front of them, in whatever way we’re in front of them, whether we’re trying to sell them something or market something to them or speak to them or write something for them, we have to be incredibly aware of what is so important to them so that we can make sure that we are paying off on that.

(09:05): It’s funny cuz I, that reaction that you gave is one that I get a lot when I say things like this, but I don’t mean to say that this is, this isn’t a cynical thing at all. This is like, know your value. Yeah. Because if you know your value, you can pay off to people incredibly well. Yeah. And I was completely getting, um, you know, I understand because it could be interpreted that way, but I’ve said for forever as a marketer, you know, nobody wants what we sell. They want the problem solved. And that’s really how we have, that’s absolutely the right framework to look at it. Are you an agency owner, consultant or coach that works with business owners? Then I want to talk to you about adding a new revenue stream to your business that will completely change how you work with clients.

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(10:31): Going back to these phases again. Yeah, I, my personal favorites panic, I mean I like the messy, but you, you’re talking about wouldn’t go back as really the payoff, you know, for going through the change.

(10:42): So maybe two, two part question here. Maybe describe that idea or that you know what’s in that and then maybe talk about, you know, put you on the spot a little bit. What’s a wouldn’t go back moment for you? Yeah, so wouldn’t go back is what I say is the real payoff of the four phases of change where you reach a moment where you say, I have something so new and valuable that I wouldn’t want to go back to a time before I had it. And what this really is recognizing that there was more than one way to do something and that in fact that these other ways that maybe you were forced into through some kind of crisis or disruption or that you were proactive in trying to figure out how to grow beyond whatever it is that you initially built. That this requires discovering something that wasn’t on your original roadmap, but that once you get there you recognize it has tremendous transformative transformational value.

(11:37): And, and one of the ways I think people can do that is to do what I like to call to reconsider the impossible, which is to basically take stock of the ideas that you had discarded because they possibly are actually the ones that are gonna be the most transformational. I think we all build these filters for ourselves and, and we say the good ideas are in here, the bad ideas are out there, but you know, those filters are faulty, they’re understandable. We can’t consider every idea at every moment of the day. We don’t have the time for it. But we have to recognize, especially as we build systems and we start to incentivize the people around us to, you know, do everything better, faster, and cheaper, that we also have to make sure that we’re building systems that take into account that, that people are gonna have new needs.

(12:18): That, that the way in which we operate is going to shift and change and we better make sure that we’re alert to how to be adaptive to that or else we’re gonna become irrelevant. You asked about me, I mean, one of the things that I, when I started at Entrepreneur Magazine, my background is in media. So I was at, as you mentioned, fast Company, but also me, men’s Health Maxim. I freelanced for everybody from GQ to Slate to whatever. And, and so I got to entrepreneur, I really thought of it as a media project. You know, I’m here to remake the magazine, I’m here to make media and, and then people, when I would go out into the world, they wouldn’t treat me as a media person. They would treat me as a thought leader in entrepreneurship. And I was deeply uncomfortable by that at first because, you know, I just did, I felt like a fraud.

(13:01): But eventually I realized there was a massive opportunity if I could just understand what it was that people wanted for me and also find the honest way in for myself. Because look, I’m not the guy who can tell you exactly how to grow your business from a, you know, $1 million company to a $10 million company to a hundred. That, that’s not me, that’s not my background. But my background is in people. I understand people, I understand how they think, I understand how they process information and I can take those lessons and I can turn them into value for other people. So I wanted to figure out where’s my place in all this and if I could do that, then I could remake the way that I think about myself and also seize the larger opportunity, which is really the reason I’m talking to you right now.

(13:43): Nobody asked me to write a book, nobody asked me to be on all these podcasts or to go, uh, you know, do keynote talks for companies. But that was the opportunity available and I wanted to make sure I was able to rise to meet it. What would you say is one of the greatest, ultimate benefits of change? I mean, sometimes change is hard, sometimes change hurts, sometimes change ends you up somewhere that wasn’t as lucrative, for example, as you previously were, but there’s a payoff isn’t there to going, having gone through that or can there be Oh, I think, yeah, certainly there can be, and I think that there often is, you know, I mean look, oftentimes when we’re talking about people navigating change is sometimes of their own making a decision. And a lot of times it is reactive. It’s that we were doing something for a long time and it stopped working and so we had to do something else.

(14:32): So look, part of part of the value of it is not drowning is is building this kind of knowledge that things are going to change into the way in which you operate so that you don’t leave yourself vulnerable to a disruption that is incredibly hard to overcome. That’s really the power here is to be thinking is the reason I called the book Build for Tomorrow, is like, what are you doing today that is anticipating tomorrow? Because Harvard Business Review ran this piece a couple years ago that asked this question, which is why do big companies stop innovating? And the answer that was offered was because big companies start with an innovation and then over time they shift all of their energy and all of their incentives towards efficiency. How do we make things better, faster and cheaper? And that’s fine, nothing wrong with efficiency, but the problem is that if top to bottom everybody’s incentivized towards efficiency, then nobody is thinking about how this company is gonna have to change because you know, your blockbuster and Netflix is coming along and that’s how you see complete destruction, not just disruption.

(15:41): So I think that’s one, one way to think about it. The other way to think about it is that, is that they’re, I think oftentimes we sell ourselves short. I think that successful people sell themselves short because they say, you know, maybe the reason why I have this level of success was some combination of luck and timing that doesn’t exist anymore and there’s just simply no way that I could recreate it. And I just don’t, I just don’t think that’s true. I think that’s a good, that’s a way in which people end up holding onto old things for too long. But if instead you give yourself some credit and you own some of your success, then you say, you know what? Maybe I have something here and I could build even more than I have right now. Or I could build even bigger. I could solve problems that I can’t just let sit around until they eat at the foundation that I’m standing upon.

(16:26): The more that we just accept that new does not equal bad, then the more I think we can liberate ourselves to try to build that new ourselves. Well, I mean in a way it sounds like you’re advocating that, you know, if somebody’s been in a job, been in a career, been doing something for, you know, a certain period of time, that it may still feel comfortable, but maybe you almost need to force change that to put yourself out there to say, Hey, I need to do new things because I’m starting to do mediocre. I mean, I think this is a concept to call work your next job that I think everybody should be doing. Whether you own your own company or you are working for someone else’s company work, your next job is to remind that in front of you you have two sets of opportunities.

(17:12): Opportunities set a opportunity, set B opportunity, set A is everything that’s asked of you. So you have a boss or you have clients, whatever it is, like your ability to deliver on their expectations is opportunity. Set a opportunity set B is everything that’s available to you that nobody’s asking you to do. And you know, that could be within the work structure you have that could also be outside where you say, oh, I like podcasts, maybe I should start a podcast. My belief and the way that I built my career and the way that I watch others do too is that I think that they, I believe that opportunities set B is always more important. Opportunities say A, you know, doing the things that are expected of you, those are not unimportant, you have to do those. But opportunity set B is where growth is gonna happen.

(17:58): That’s where you’re going open up additional opportunities that you hadn’t seen before. I mean, you know, you look at the greatest companies in the world and what they tended to do was start in a very narrow space, prove their model and their understanding of what their value was, and then start to expand outward from there by understanding what people need and therefore building that back into who they are. And companies transform as a result, right? What you’re watching is really people who are, uh, leaders who are recognizing that the greatest thing that they can do for their company is test something now so that they can understand what’s going to be of value tomorrow to people. There’s just, you know, look, there’s nothing wrong If you have something and it works for you, I’m not telling you to throw it away, that’s ridiculous. But what I am telling you is that the, there’s a high likelihood that the thing that you’re doing right now is simply not going to work as well tomorrow as it does today because the world changes.

(18:52): And if you don’t change with it, then you become outmoded slowly but surely. So let’s build that reality into what we do. Let’s build systems in which we’re recognizing what’s changing around us and then running little experiments. Let’s make sure that, you know, if we’re running a business, that we’re constantly talking to our customers and understanding where they are moving towards so that we can take those insights and build them back into the way that we serve them now. Because everything has to be an evolution. And if you don’t think of it that way, then you’re gonna be stuck in the past. Yeah, and you know, again, um, subtitle the book, future Proofing Your Career. I mean, what you’re talking about there is really, I mean there’s probably always gonna be a market out there somewhere for that plan B, bucket B stuff you’re working on, right?

(19:37): If it’s not appreciated where you are, that’s really how you, I mean, I’m guessing that’s an element of future proof proofing your career, isn’t it? Oh yeah, without question. And I think that you, if we’re just talking about individual people and individual careers and individual skill sets, then, you know, then, I mean just to simplify it then it’s so interesting because what, look, think about your own career or the careers people who you know you’re close with are very impressed by it. And what you’ll see is this kind of wacky zigzag, right? Where they did one thing and it led to something that seemed completely different, which led to something else. I mean, how am I running Entrepreneur Magazine? It, it’s not because of some straightforward path, it’s because of like all of these random roles that I held over time that, that, that have a logic to them because I worked at Men’s Health and that taught me this particular kind of writing style.

(20:25): And then, and then I went to Fast Company, which fine, I worked at a magazine, but really the value there was that I worked at the video team and, and I got in front of the camera and I learned how to present, which many years later, the CEO and president of Entrepreneur Media would see that stuff and say, oh, this guy can be a good representative of this brand and that helps us feel confident that he should be an editor in chief Chief. So the more in which we are embracing this little zigzag path, while being mindful that some of the greatest opportunities are the ones that we aren’t going to have anticipated, the more that we’re really clearing the way for success. Malcolm Gladwell told me, I interviewed him, you know, bestselling author and podcast her and all sorts of things. Malcolm Gladwell, he told me when we were speaking for the magazine a couple years ago, he said, self concepts are powerfully limiting.

(21:15): And I mean, I just, I love that so much. I wrote it down and stuck it on my wall. Self-conception are powerfully limiting that if you have two narrow a definition of yourself, then you will turn down all the opportunities that don’t meet that narrow definition and therefore you will actually limit your ability to grow. I try to take that to heart pretty much with everything that I do. His audiobook with Paul Simon right up there with one of my favorites. Malcolm Glad was what you just said is interesting though, because there’s a fine line between that idea of limiting yourself and staying focused on, you know, not just chasing every new thing that comes down, you know, and that’s, that’s the real trick is under, is understanding where to get off path, what to chase, what not to chase, where, how to stay focused. And I think that’s, that that’s the part that many people stumble and have trouble with.

(22:06): Yeah, I think you’re totally right and look, it depends upon your circumstance, right? I mean, I hear lots of different versions of that problem from, I’ve been speaking to a lot of college students lately and cuz of the book, I’m going to a sort of college tour and there was a kid at Drexel University who just came up to me and he was like, you know, he wants to do seven different things and they’re all like wildly different, you know, and so which one is he supposed to do? And, and I hear that and then I also hear companies who have 10 different ideas of what they should be doing right now is not the resources to pursue all 10 of them. And one of the, I mean look, there’s, there’s all sorts of ways to answer that question, but I think one of the foundational things to think about is it came from conversation I had with Katie Milkman who studies sort of how people change and make decisions at Wharton.

(22:55): She’s a professor there and she said, you know, one of the greatest mistakes that we make is that we think of everything that we do as permanent. And, and so, you know, she told me, she was like, look, this advice is not gonna sound revolution. It kind of is because people often overlook it, which is to just give ourself, give ourselves the permission to run experiments to, to simply think, you know, I’m going to try something and it might be of value and it might not be of value. And both of those are, okay, so let’s go into something and maybe let’s set a three, three month check in and a six month check in and see if there’s value here and if there is, let’s continue. And if not, maybe we move on to something else. But you know, there’s no fault in having tried it. The more that we can just think of what we’re doing as experiments, the more in which we give ourselves the freedom to just explore some of those avenues and see whether they’re worthwhile. But we have to pick some of them and we have to go down that path. It’s the only way to know whether there’s value there.

(23:53): Speaking with Jason Feifer, the author of Build for Tomorrow, Jason, you wanna tell people where they can connect with you, obviously in other than the mass head of the magazine, there are other places you might send people and of course to get a copy of your book as well. Yeah, sure. So built for Tomorrow, you can find in any format you like. So, uh, hardcover, audio book, ebook, what basically any retailer you like. So anyway, again, it’s built for tomorrow. And then otherwise my website is JasonFeifer.com. It’s got links to all sorts of stuff that I produce from podcasts to free audio guides and, and also you can find me on LinkedIn or Instagram where I’m extremely active and responsive. Awesome. Well thanks again for taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing podcast and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days out there on the road. Hey, appreciate it.

(24:38): Hey, and one final thing before you go. You know how I talk about marketing strategy strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that, what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the Marketing Strategy Assessment. You can find it @ marketingassessment.co. Check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketingassessment.co. I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Marketing Against the Grain, hosted by Kip Bodner and Keion Flanigan is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Look, if you wanna know what’s happening now in marketing, what’s ahead and how you can stay ahead of the game, this is the podcast for you, host and HubSpot’s, CMO and SVP of Marketing. Kip and Keion share their marketing expertise unfiltered in the details, the truth, and nobody tells it. In fact, a recent episode, they titled Half Baked Marketing Ideas, they Got Down In The Weeds, talked about some outside of the box campaigns with real businesses. Listen to marketing, its grain, wherever you get your podcast.

(00:55): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Debbie Howard. She is the co-founder and CEO of Senior Living Smart, a full service marketing agency focused exclusively on the senior housing and care industry. It’s also a proud member of the Duct Tape Marketing Network for the last three years. So guess we’re gonna probably talk about that too. So Debbie, welcome to the show.

Debbie Howard (01:20): Thanks, John. Such a pleasure to be here.

John Jantsch (01:22): So tell me how you got your business started. Not everybody wakes up one day and says, I think I’m gonna start a marketing business that caters to the senior living space. So how did you come to where you are now?

Debbie Howard (01:34): Yeah, never my dream either. John , so well, myself and my business partner Andrea. We grew up in the senior living industry, and we both started at the single community location. I was in sales and marketing, and Andrea was in operations and dementia care. And we just kind of rose through the ranks with some of the largest senior living operators, publicly traded companies in regional divisional, and then national VP positions. And before starting Senior Living Smart, I was a national VP of sales and marketing for Five Star, which was the fifth largest senior living company. And we just decided that we thought we had something that we could bring the industry from the perspective of having worked in the industry and then translating that into solutions that were more realistic than what people were proposing who really hadn’t grown up in the industry.

John Jantsch (02:25): Yeah. So it’s funny you were kind of on the other side. I mean, you were being pitched by people like you right now to now today. And so did you have that kind of moment where you just said, what people are pitching us is not where we could do so much better? I mean, was it kind of that aha, I guess?

Debbie Howard (02:45): I think the aha was just that we always had to bring them the ideas. They were a marketing agency that just kind of said, oh, well, what do you want us to do this quarter? ?

John Jantsch (02:55): Right, right,

Debbie Howard (02:56): Right. So because they didn’t know the industry, they just didn’t have that ability to come into the conversation with something innovative. And so we just found that the industry was just borrowing examples from other people within the industry. And we are not a tremendously innovative and technology savvy industry. So all that we’re doing is looking inside of ourselves to get those ideas and concepts and marketing strategies. We’re probably just gonna look a lot like everybody else. And it was very just vanilla. It was all very generic. We thought there has to be a way to really elevate the conversation within our industry.

John Jantsch (03:37): As anybody with aging parents will probably tell you certainly. And that’s again, a lot of the people that are making the decision with their parents. Hopefully it’s a really emotional purchase, probably one of the more emotional purchases anybody will make. How’s that kind of color your thinking in terms of marketing? Obviously you’re not marketing a $29 product or even a very expensive course or program. You’re marketing something pretty expensive, but also something terribly emotional.

Debbie Howard (04:05): It is. It’s so emotional. It’s not transactional at all. And so the approach has to be relational. And I think that the difficult thing is you’re really pitching to two audiences kind of simultaneously. So mostly for assisted living in memory care, which is more needs driven, your primary audience is the adult children, usually the adult daughter, John . The guys are like, well, maybe my sister will take this conversation. And so mostly it’s the adult daughters or daughter-in-laws, but then you still have to have a compelling message for your future residents so that they’re going to see the value and benefit of moving into a community environment. Whereas if you’re dealing with active adult 55 plus Margaritaville, it can be a lot more aspirational, a lot more creative, and a lot more fun. And those messages, the primary audience is then the older adult who’s gonna be living in the community, but they’re always gonna have to be supported by their adult children. Influencers who still need to be part of that conversation.

John Jantsch (05:06): Well, when the decision’s been made and it’s time to call somebody to put the move together, you call the guy then though, right?

Debbie Howard (05:13): Oh yeah. You call the guy . Yeah. And when it’s time to sign the contract, pay the bills, .

John Jantsch (05:20): So you know, mentioned the idea that the industry was a little behind in the digital space, a lot of industries, again, you talked about this relational aspect, the fact that there’s a physical location as opposed to say a virtual purchase. Do you find that in some ways, while they need to come into the modern age and digital is here to stay, do you also find though that some of what we might call old school or traditional or offline kind of hybrid approaches are a significant part of what you need to do?

Debbie Howard (05:53): Yeah, it’s definitely a hybrid approach, and certainly direct mail is still in the mix and is very effective. Our audience still gets the newspaper and still goes out and gets that mail and responds to it. It’s just a matter of integrating it. So use of QR codes, things like Bit Lees that can track the engagement event, bright other event type systems that you can get RSVPs where maybe the initial point might be a traditional marketing might be newspaper or direct mail ends up being a digital transaction. But the fact that it is so relational and it’s so emotional means that you have to be on all channels all the time, but with different messages. And I think that’s really the compelling part. And the length of the sales cycle, especially with the assisted living, has increased their sales cycle by about 36%. It takes, wow, over 200 days and 22 touch points to go from maybe a realization that I’ve gotta have a different solution, or dad’s not as being successful at home as they were. They needed a more supportive environment, 22 touchpoints in like 200 days to get to decision. And so there’s a lot of marketing within those 22 touchpoints,

John Jantsch (07:07): . So let’s talk a little bit about your journey some more too. You know, start your business five years ago

Debbie Howard (07:13): Ish. Actually it was 10 years, but we just became a marketing agency five years ago.

John Jantsch (07:17): Okay, so let’s start there. What’s been the hardest thing as you’ve grown? And again, maybe it’s like, well, next week is the hardest thing, but , what do you find that has always been a constant struggle for you?

Debbie Howard (07:32): I think for us is just trying to differentiate and then scale. And I think that’s really why we entered into conversations around Duct Tape Marketing Network because we were trying to figure it out on our own. We’d never owned a marketing agency. It wasn’t our intention that it was really just people kept saying, Deb, your background is all sales and marketing. We just need leads. We just need occupancy. Why don’t you just focus on marketing? And so it was really external forces that kind of narrowed our scope of our work, which was more general consulting in nature operations and dementia care and everything else. So we landed about five years ago on, okay, all you need are leads. Okay, great. I can do that, we can do that as a team. But then we really lacked, I think having the system to scale. And to me, we were looking for, okay, now we’ve gotta figure out how to do contracts and what our processes is and how to document our ways of working and how do we make things turnkey and scalable, and how do we onboard new clients and how do we onboard new team members?

(08:36): And we just didn’t have the time to start from scratch. And so Duct Tape Marketing really offered us the ability to go into versus that our, it’s much easier to be an editor than to start from scratch so I could go in and download something and then make it work for our team or for our industry. So that really became the biggest focus for us was I feel like we’ve licensed a system that gives us a framework. And that framework resonates with prospects who most of the time don’t understand. Marketing feels kind of fluffy into a system that they can really understand. You can’t argue with the fact that you need to be on all these channels and they need to integrate. No one can argue with that. And it also gives us a framework as a team as well.

John Jantsch (09:19): Are you an agency owner, consultant or coach that works with business owners? Then I want to talk to you about adding a new revenue stream to your business that will completely change how you work with clients. For the first time ever, you can license and use the Duct Tape Marketing system and methodology in your business through an upcoming three day virtual workshop. Give us three days and you’ll walk away with a complete system that changes how you think about your agency’s growth. The Duct Tape Marketing System is a turnkey set of processes for installing a marketing system that starts with strategy and moves to retainer implementation engagements. We’ve developed a system by successfully working with thousands of businesses. Now you can bring it to your agency and benefit from all the tools, templates, systems and processes we’ve developed to find out when our next workshop is being held, visit dtm.world/workshop. That’s dtm.world/workshop.

(10:20): So as you’ve grown your business, I guess the flip side of what’s been a challenge, what’s really been the most rewarding aspect of where you are today?

Debbie Howard (10:28): I think it’s just really seeing the results. Talking to, we’re into our quarterly or our quarterly reporting and talking to clients saying, thank you for bringing us these ideas that we would never have thought of on our own. It’s, it’s really helped. Other agencies have just executed to what we’ve kind of laid out in terms of a roadmap, but you’ve really come in and said, Hey, why don’t we try this? Whether it’s virtual events that was totally new to our industry before it was all driving people into the community and we had to reimagine that whole experience. And so being creative and innovative within the space that probably isn’t known for being creative and innovative is probably the most rewarding. You

John Jantsch (11:15): Have chosen a fairly narrow niche that’s a lot of people give that advice for marketers. I’d love to hear your opinion. Do you feel like working in one very narrow niche? I mean, are there pros and cons to each? I mean, do you sometimes wake up and go, oh, it’s great we got another new client, but wouldn’t it be interesting if we had a client that did something we weren’t familiar with ? So again, obviously you’re happy where you are, you love the niche you’re in, that’s why you chose it. But I’m just curious if you have ever thought to yourself, there’s kind of pros and cons to that, that

Debbie Howard (11:53): There definitely are pros and cons, and I think you would go crazy in a niche industry, John, you’d be like, I’m bored. I need to learn something new. For us, we’ve grown up in this industry, we know it inside out and backwards, and it just really makes sense. I don’t need to go out and learn about people who have carpentry companies or car repair companies. It really is that expertise. I think where it can really be a con is if you allow it to get kind of that wash, rinse, repeat, yeah. And you end up, there’s advantages to being turnkey and to have some packaged strategies that work consistently, but then you’ve gotta tie into each individual client and really understand their personas, their better and different story. And then I think you have to constantly be intentional about innovation. And that’s another thing I really appreciate about being part of the network is I don’t have the time always to go out and demo a million solutions. I get pitched a lot. I’m sure you get pitched a lot. And to be able to go and have a network and say, Hey, has anyone tried this? Are you using it now? Or can you gimme some insight into how you’re applying? It’s a great time saver because we have to constantly be fresh to keep our teams engaged and keep our clients engaged for year after year. From a retention standpoint,

John Jantsch (13:14): And I’m sure every industry has these players. I know that in your industry there are people that focus on that niche also. But I, you’re right. I think some people take that approach and think, oh, we can just template this entire thing and we’re basically just selling a product then without any strategy behind it. I’m sure you encounter that all the time, don’t you?

Debbie Howard (13:32): Yeah, especially we have in our industry, some website providers that, here’s five templates, pick your website. They all look alike. They’re terrible, they don’t perform well, but people feel like it’s an easy button and you’re basically renting your website. You really don’t own it. And so I think for us, we’ve kind of developed three sub niches. So we have the for-profit senior living space, which is rental. We have the Not for Profit, which is a buy-in kind of life plan guarantee. And then we’ve actually evolved into business to business companies that serve the senior living industry. So we kind of have three different sub-verticals, and that also keeps it really interesting and really fresh.

John Jantsch (14:17): And one of the things that drives me crazy when I’ve come across some of those, the legal profession is notorious for them as well, is that they also lock people into these websites. And then if you wanna leave, it’s like, well, okay, see you later. But you’re starting from scratch now, and people don’t realize 3, 4, 5 years down the road how damaging that’s gonna be for their business, do

Debbie Howard (14:37): They? They don’t understand the consequences. And in our industry, they do two year contracts, which autorenew, if you miss that window, you are stuck . And we’ve had clients that have had to pay $60,000 to buy out so that we can build up something good on WordPress. And really, it just breaks my heart that people are still kind of falling for that, oh, here for 500, $600 a month, we’ll do your website. And then you try to get reports and they’re like, oh, you don’t need those . And then we try to get in to run Google AdWord campaigns, and then the client finds out they don’t actually own their Google ad account, they don’t have access to their Google Analytics. This website company really owns them, which is not a good place to be .

John Jantsch (15:25): Well, I mean, it’s basically extortion . Yeah. Quite frankly. So let’s call it what it is. So talk a little bit about the growth of your organization because you’ve shared some numbers with me or some percentages with me, and you’ve had pretty significant growth over the last couple years. What do you attribute that to?

Debbie Howard (15:43): So yeah, I think when we first started, John, we came into the network, I think there were four people. It was myself, my partner, and then one full-time person, and then one con contract person. And now three years later, we are a team of 26 full-time employees. And then we do some outsourcing of copywriters, graphic designers, just kind of for overflow when our full-time team might get overwhelmed. And I would say bringing things in house. I think when we first started, John, the reason we were able to do that is we did outsource a lot to some white label agencies that would kind of do the work. And that worked for a while. But honestly, I think as an agency owner, we just came to realize that the only way that you can really maintain the quality of your work is you have to bring it in.

(16:31): And so making that decision was a huge thing for us. And frankly, conversations with you and other mastermind folks really kind of gave us the conf to go ahead and make that adjustment. But we double in size every year in terms of revenue. And I think a lot of that is we have found a way to make it scalable, to leverage the Duct Tape Marketing System, mapped out the prospect journey. Retention is really important. So we have clients who’ve been with us for five years, which I think is unusual for agency life. But I would say that those are the things that have really kept us, I think, competitive.

John Jantsch (17:13): So you talked about, I think, coming up in the industry, but that you’ve really had this approach where you want to continue to be innovative. Are there any trends going on that you’ve spotted over the last year or two that you’ve been able to take advantage of or that, or maybe they’re even, it’s just a gap in the market that people aren’t filling?

Debbie Howard (17:33): Yeah, there’s a lot of gaps. I mean, senior housing and care, it seems to be kind of the last adopters. So probably things you were talking about five years ago on this podcast are things that our industry’s going, Hey, there’s chat and there’s bots, and there’s these other things that maybe we should try out. So in our industry, I would say 2023, really leveraging SMS is something that we have to do. People just, that’s where folks are, right? Search, social, email, and text. And so I think building those types of campaigns and really using video more creatively or two of the things that we’re focused on, we just had a call with a vendor who was, we’re all trying to figure out about the anonymous traffic and the traffic that we can no longer track and we can no longer retarget. And I think that’s gonna become an increasing need is, I think right now we can only probably track and retarget to about 30% of our website traffic.

(18:29): Google Chrome is kind of the last bastion, and only 50% of people are on that, and 40% of those folks block the tracking. And so really you’re down to about 30%. And so things like being able to reverse IP match back to physical addresses, or using longitudinal longitudinal to get a household address, whether that’s to serve up direct mail or to even serve ads to the devices that reside at house. I think some of those types of things where you’re really blending that hybrid marketing model and really personalizing, to your point, it is a relational sale. And you’ve got to personalize that journey down to the individual and their motivation and their timeframe and what level of care they’re interested in. And so I think the better job we can do with that, hopefully the more we can impact that very long sales cycle to build trust a little bit quicker.

John Jantsch (19:23): It’s funny, of course, this is gonna come to SMS and it’s certainly email marketing, all the privacy things that are mm-hmm. coming out there in terms of what you talked about retargeting. But it’s funny how the old school direct marketing, you and I’ve talked about this, I mean, you can go by a mail list that has a lot of data on it that you could never get or capture or track or keep online. And I think that we’re gonna maybe see a resurgence of direct mail because of that.

Debbie Howard (19:50): Totally. I mean, we can get, unfortunately, or fortunately, I guess for us, it’s a good thing. I don’t know , but we can get ailment criteria. So I can purchase a list of people who have self-identified and have agreed to share certain diagnosis and dementia and all of the things that typically trigger the need for a more supportive environment as people age. And we can even look at people who have a senior in their home . So we’ll be able to know that this person is probably taking care of a family member. And we know that there’s a timeframe where that may not be possible. And we can have a very specific campaign that just goes to those households where there is one senior within a household, or people who have different diseases or certain needs. It’s amazing how much information, there’s no privacy on the list side. And if you have a really good, we have a great list, guy .

John Jantsch (20:47): Yep. And again, this is, you’ve been a great member of the Duct Tape Marketing Consultant Network. You’ve been a great collaborator and share, and I appreciate you saying kind things that you say about Duct Tape Marketing. Having said that, what are some other places where you get personal development, business development, what some places you like to turn for that?

Debbie Howard (21:09): So I do listen to a lot of podcasts and webinars. I would say just from a timing standpoint, the in person things, unfortunately have certainly minimized in our industry. So it’s really, it’s reading and it’s webinars and it’s podcasts. I would say even listening to master classes, they have amazing master classes, which, you know, can always find those nuggets in those types of learnings, I think. Yeah,

John Jantsch (21:38): I don’t commute anywhere and , so I sometimes find it tough. I’m not a person that can sit down and watch a video course. I get bored very quickly, but I find that going out, walking or driving for a long distance or something, if I ever end up having a trip that I’m making or something, that’s really where I can consume a lot of audio content. But I do find it, this is really sad for a podcaster who’s done as many shows as me to say I don’t listen to many podcasts because I just don’t worked into my habit.

Debbie Howard (22:08): Well, you’re a big reader though.

John Jantsch (22:10): I am a big reader, .

Debbie Howard (22:12): Yeah, and I think you read and listen at the same time, so you’re doubling your intake.

John Jantsch (22:16): I do that sometimes. You’re right. You’ve heard me talk about that not really not listening and reading two different things. I’m actually listening to the audio version while I’m reading it. And so I feel like I really retain a lot more by doing that. So Debbie, I certainly appreciate you taking time to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. You wanna, is there anywhere you want to send people, if they heard this and they thought, oh, I’d like to follow that, Debbie, or connect with her anywhere you wanna send folks to learn more about what you’re doing. So

Debbie Howard (22:44): Probably LinkedIn, very active on LinkedIn. That would be a good spot. Or on our website, senior living smart.com.

John Jantsch (22:50): Awesome. Well, Debbie, hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days soon again, out there on the road.

Debbie Howard (22:56): I hope so, John, thank you so much.

John Jantsch (22:58): Hey, and one final thing before you go. You know how I talk about marketing strategy, strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that, what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the Marketing Strategy Assessment. You can find it@marketingassessment.co,. Check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketingassessment.co. I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.

John Jantsch (00:00):
This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Marketing Against the Grain, hosted by Kip Bodner and Keion Flanigan is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Look, if you wanna know what’s happening now in marketing, what’s ahead and how you can stay ahead of the game, this is the podcast for you, host and HubSpot’s, CMO and SVP of Marketing. Kip and Keion share their marketing expertise unfiltered in the details of truth and nobody tells it. In fact, a recent episode, they titled Half Baked Marketing Ideas They Got Down In The Weeds, talked about some outside of the box campaigns with real businesses. Listen to marketing, its grain wherever you get your podcast.

(00:56):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Becky Blades. She’s an entrepreneur, writer, artist and philosopher of creative, adventurous living. Since selling her first company and award-winning public relations firm, Becky has studied what she has coined Starry, the Art of Creative Initiative. She’s also the author of a book we’re gonna talk about today. Start More Than You Can Finish a Creative Permission slip to Unleash your Best Ideas. So Becky, welcome to the

Becky Blades (01:28):
Show. Thanks. Glad to be here.

John Jantsch (01:30):
I have to warn you that when my wife saw this book come through the door and saw the title, she said, You’re not allowed to read that book because nobody needs to give you permission to start more than you finish. So I have to tell you that, you know, have one person out there that thinks this is a terrible title to a book stuff sure that because it is sort of counterintuitive, right? I’m sure you’re getting some similar pushback from people.

Becky Blades (01:54):
Exactly. But you know, are my people, John and my people get it. And it’s also tongue in cheek. In my first book was the title, Do Your Laundry or You’ll Die Alone. And sometimes I ask people why they bought it and they say just the title and they, they hated it, but they wanna know what it was about. So no, I mean the bottom line is when our parents said all those things to us, don’t bite off more than you can chew. It’s not what you start, it’s what you finish. They were likely trying to prevent us from making a mess, getting out the paint or starting a Legos project before dinner. And they did not accomplish getting us to finish more. They just got us to start less. So the beginning there, I’m not saying don’t finish, never anywhere do I say don’t finish. But the more you start the more you will finish. Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (02:56):
Again, I don’t wanna push back on this too much, but I know that some pushback you will get from people. I mean, is there a little danger in then us just constantly treading water because we have that mindset of like, Oh, I’m gonna go over here and do this now. Oh, I’m gonna go over and do this now. And Lord knows there’s enough things distracting us as it is

Becky Blades (03:15):
That, That’s a valid question, . I think when we know treat starting as a skill and a strength, which I think it is, then we will get better at kind of curating our ideas. I mean, you’re an excellent curator of ideas, don’t done, you’ve made a lot of stuff. I’ve only seen your finished stuff, so I’m sure that you have a lot of things that didn’t get finished. But don’t you think they led up to two things. One, you making better calls on the ideas that you do initiate and two, they likely led to richness in new ideas and a courage three, this is three things. a creative courage just to move forward.

John Jantsch (04:00):
Yeah, It also led to me having to added a detached garage to store some things in. But the money line from the book, my favorite line from the book that I wrote down is Take, when we take action, we bump into answers. And I think that probably in some ways is at the heart really of what I think you’re trying to say is that sometimes you’ve just gotta start some things before you realize what’s the right thing,

Becky Blades (04:26):
. Exactly. And does the idea have legs? And I mean, I think in organizations especially where you’re sitting in a meeting and the goal is to make more money and it’s time is money. And so the initial instinct is to shut things down, stay on the road, but we don’t know what we don’t know. And until we know can answer a few questions, we don’t really know what the idea’s made of. And so what we do in organizations and some of us personally is we plan them to death. And we all know, especially in lean organizations, that the finish is never what the plan originally designed. Yeah. It’s hopefully better. So we don’t, do you wanna wait two months to look perfect plan is in place, or is there a way that we can talk to the customer now? Is there a way that we can fashion a prototype now?

John Jantsch (05:27):
Yeah. I love these folks that start out by saying you need to have your 10 year vision to me. I mean, there’s nothing wrong with having a goal of what you want life to look like maybe in 10 years, but boy, how would you have a very clear vision of even next quarter sometimes it feels like.

Becky Blades (05:43):
Right.

John Jantsch (05:45):
I read in your to the term Starer Street, you want to talk a little bit about what you mean by that? How address that, what that implies?

Becky Blades (05:55):
. Well, starry came out of the term Stardust, which came kind of out of a situation at home where my kids were trying to figure out what I was after I sold my first company and I’m a visual artist. And after I sold my first business, I came home and amped up the painting studio and I was an artist, but I also had some projects in the work. I was mentoring some entrepreneurs and stuff. And so every once in a while they’d see me dressed up like a business person. And one daughter came down and said, Mom, what are you now? Are you a business person? Are you an artist? And my other daughter from another room said she’s a star . Or I think I said, I’m starting this and I’m starting that. So the other kids said, she’s a star. And I love that word.

(06:47):
And to your earlier points, not finishing things did not make me feel good. And I wasn’t proud of, at that point in life, in my forties of all of the things that I hadn’t finished, I didn’t really know where they had taken me. But after some study of my own unfinished work, I realized that I am, if there’s one thing I am good at, it’s starting things and I start pretty fearlessly. And there’s all kinds of reasons for that. And I was starting to shame myself for such a that some of that. So I started then to go the other way and to really try to find the dignity and worth in that and found it in spades. And it’s just like the term artistry. It’s this vague kind of, it’s a skill and a strength and an art. And I think it deserves its own word be because starting is its own process.

John Jantsch (07:51):
So this is a little bit of a segue or off topic segue, I should say. Since you mentioned them, have you’ve, you certainly are a creative person. In fact, I would be remiss if I didn’t point out the beautiful illustrations in the book. Should somebody get the book, which you did as well. But you’ve also raised a couple pretty creative kids, haven’t you?

Becky Blades (08:08):
Yes, I have two daughters. And

John Jantsch (08:10):
Go ahead and brag cause you’ve got some stuff to brag on.

Becky Blades (08:13):
Oh, well they’re both kind of in, honestly, they didn’t take after me. They took care after their hus. I’ll restart that. Honestly, they didn’t take after me. They took care after their dad, who is a speaker and performer. I mostly write and do art in my basement. So one of them produces comedy shows and improv, musical improv. Places like the Edinburg Fringe. And then the older one is a writer for the John Oliver show, her dream job. And she just got this year and she won an Emmy for comedy writing. And I talk about ’em both a little bit in the book because we had a lot of their statistic skills were inspiring to me. If they wanted to start a play, they’d start a play .

John Jantsch (09:09):
Well, so part of my point in going there is that I think a lot of people would look at what you’re talking about as being a trait of a more creative person. Creative people are always coming up with ideas and new ways and probably are more guilty of starting things that they don’t finish. I don’t have any research that suggests that, but So how about that person that’s out there going, Yeah, okay, I can see the validity in this, but I’m just not that creative.

Becky Blades (09:35):
Well, I think we all have to read up on creativity. . It’s not art and music only. That’s certainly the fun part of it. But creativity is problem solving. It is. It’s the product of our imaginations. And our imaginations are the best of our lives. I think the best of us lives in our imaginations. So we come up with ideas that we might not think are creative out of the sum of our experiences, our knowledge. And so those ideas manifest only if we can be creative, cuz that’s, we’ve gotta make something out of nothing. That’s all creativity is walking up to a blank page. And anybody who does that has to admit that they’re creative. Anybody who doesn’t do that, I think might have to admit that they’re not living their best lives. I know I started the book kind of thinking, Ooh, I’m gonna find the accountants who are poets and I can’t think of those.

John Jantsch (10:46):
Pick on

Becky Blades (10:46):
Engineers, very linear jobs

John Jantsch (10:48):
Pick on engineers. They’re easy ones. But

Becky Blades (10:50):
Engineers, no, they’re the inventors. Oh my gosh, I found out the most fascinating people are engineers, but they work differently. Their ideas emerge differently and the creative process looks different for them. But the tinkering, I think we just need to take this out of thinking that creativity is art now. Yeah. So I think I just learned this. Are you a woodworker or something? What are your, what’s in the garage that you were just talking

John Jantsch (11:23):
About? I do. I build furniture. Yeah. Yeah.

Becky Blades (11:25):
. So I mean, you are still, you’re creative in your business, but I think of you foremost as a business person, but you’re an artist as well. And can you see how one that your artistic skills in one area maybe helps you and the others?

John Jantsch (11:45):
Oh yeah. Yeah. I’m not the problem. There’s other people out there that we have to work on. I have a whole, Oh, I see musical instruments on there.

Becky Blades (11:53):
Oh cool. Okay.

John Jantsch (11:55):
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(13:04):
All right. So let’s get back to, I’m sure there are people out there listening that 10 years before Uber was designed set, had the idea for Uber , just did nothing with it. So you hinted at this a little bit, but what do you think stops people from taking action on or starting things?

Becky Blades (13:27):
Yeah. Well I think it’s, it lurks in the finish whether or not they think they can take the idea where it needs to go. So if somebody has a big idea like that, they honestly will. Smart will. Honestly, we can start our smaller ideas easier than our big ideas. But what I found, this was a survey of art and art students. I started asking them why they didn’t start their best ideas. Cuz I thought, these are creative people, they don’t have any responsibilities. Do they have things they haven’t started? And they all did things they wanted to start that they hadn’t. And I asked them some open-ended questions and then I paired it down to seeing that it was a question of enough. They didn’t have enough confidence, they didn’t have enough money, they didn’t have enough space, physical space, whatever it was. There’s a list of about 10 most common. But then when I ask, Do you have enough just to start, the answer was always yes. And then they went to the work of figuring out, well what is the start of a bridge mural? Oh, I guess it’s a sketch. And then I guess it’s getting permission to paint on the bridge. And once they start the momentum, just another whole process. I mean that magical switch that flips everything from neuroscience to providence supports us in that. Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:06):
You know, mentioned some of the reasons that they said not enough. I mean I would say most entrepreneurs would say, I’m just too busy to start something. Not

Becky Blades (15:13):
Enough time.

John Jantsch (15:13):
Not enough time. Not exactly. Not enough time. So I mean, if you are that entrepreneur that it actually maybe your life or growth or whatever you want to call it, depends on you creating some new things. How do you prioritize, decide if time is truly an well?

Becky Blades (15:29):
I think we all have to build our own processes. And I talked through that in the book. One easy one is to chunk it down to the very smallest way you could begin and feel like the idea has a little spark. But let’s go back. The decision to start, I think for busy people has to start to rely a little bit on a gut and a process that you’ve set up and declared for yourself. One year I declared, I’m gonna say yes to any idea this year that somebody else gives me. Or that how people are always saying, John, you should write a book about this. . Yeah, . So I didn’t say yes to any books, but my rule that year was if somebody suggests something and it’s really doable, I’m just gonna say yes. I’m not gonna think I’m not overthink it. So anyway, that is, I think the decision and picking the best ideas are key. And so somebody that just has says is at that place where I cannot handle one more thing then and an idea comes along. And that might be the big idea. That might be Uber. Yeah, I think that’s where we separate the men from the boys and the girls from the women is you have to put, you can delegate something. I mean, one guy runs ge, how does he get it all done? delegation.

John Jantsch (17:01):
. Well, you know, I mean I’ve, a practice I’ve always had is that whatever you have on your task list will fill up the day. And so I’ve always time blocked impact time is what I call it. Or I will intentionally, because I can get my to-do list done in four hours or I can take eight hours exactly. If I don’t have anything else that’s planned for the day. But if I block off that what I call impact time, I’m gonna do it and I’m gonna get my to-do list done faster. So I think that’s a practice that certainly worked for me in that category.

Becky Blades (17:33):
. So just to one other answer that one rule I set for starting new ideas is if it’s gonna overflow into another idea and make it better. So in business, yeah, if I think of an idea that has a collaboration with somebody that’s a good client or somebody I could benefit from spending more time with, there’s an ancillary benefit and

John Jantsch (17:57):
Natural multiplier.

Becky Blades (17:59):
I don’t know why your time management thing made me think of that, but it’s kind of killing two birds with

John Jantsch (18:04):
One of the other things. I think again, this idea of new ideas, innovation comes for me. I can spend all my time talking to marketing consultants, , and we’re gonna all talk about the same thing. I mean we’re gonna all copy what we’re doing. So what are some of your practices for getting outside that bubble? Because I think that’s where innovation really comes from.

Becky Blades (18:28):
I think the ideation process comes from ideation. And so we have to bark up some really strange trees. I think that’s where our art and our extracurricular, extracurricular activities come in. And I also think cross training with other star. So just getting away from the business and the recommended thing I call a star salon, which is something I just do as almost, it’s almost a book club group I have where there’s a musician, there’s an inventor, there’s a woman who has these cool popup book clubs. It’s just people who are start things in different ways because I know I’ve learned things from doing my art that I apply to my business. And I think, well if I’m both people and getting ideas, what could I get from a lot of other people? It might feel like a waste of time. It might feel like a luxury, but I think it’s a good practice.

John Jantsch (19:34):
Always tried to, I mean, I’m not the greatest at it and now that I’m old I’m really bad at it. But I really try to force myself into new things, new places new. My book reading is so eclectic. I read about wolves and I read about calculus and I read about architecture, which has no seemingly practical application for my work, but I always get amazing ideas from those other places.

Becky Blades (20:00):
Exactly. And ahead. Go ahead.

John Jantsch (20:04):
I was just gonna say, I want to end with giving you the opportunity cuz I think that there is no question a lot of things are people that are wired this way, maybe, or they grew up in an environment where it was very encouraged and so they, it’s quite natural. But I think that you, not justly, you say in the book that you can get better at this, that you can practice this, this can become a habit. So talk a little bit about how we practice.

Becky Blades (20:31):
I think it’s making a game of it. Start as many things as you can. Maybe keep a log, make it a 10 in a day, Start a limerick, start a conversation, Start acknowledging the things you’re starting. Because what I think people don’t realize is how many things they’re already starting and how much courage they’re using to do that. And pretty, the stakes of every start reduces. If you start a hundred things in a week, the stakes of that one thing are lower. And so pretty soon starting that big idea and talking to a person you’ve never talked to, part of it is muscle memory. It’s like stage time when you speak. And in the book I go to, I offer some examples and it’s hard to do this because you don’t wanna tell somebody sketch, you lose ’em. Because if they don’t fancy themself an artist, well this is just for artists. So you really have to go into your own world and remember the things you started when you were a kid. I mean, we could all do a drawing, we could all do a limerick. We could. And after this book is launched, I wanna probably start some kind of repository for those ideas so people can get go on and have a menu.

John Jantsch (21:51):
Yeah, yeah. That’s awesome. I’m speaking with Becky Blades, the author of Start More Than You Can Finish. So Becky wanna invite people to where I know the book’s available in a lot of places, but to where they might connect with you as well.

Becky Blades (22:02):
Yeah, go to becky blades.com. That’s Becky and Blades. Like Razor Blades. Awesome.

John Jantsch (22:09):
Well it was great catching up with you. I appreciate you spending some time with the Duct Tape Marketing podcast and hopefully we will run into you one of these days out there on the road.

Becky Blades (22:16):
Okay, thank you John. I’d loved

John Jantsch (22:18):
It. Hey, and one final thing before you go. You know how I talk about marketing strategy, strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that, what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the Marketing Strategy Assessment. You can find it @ marketingassessment.co. Check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketingassessment.co. I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.

John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Marketing Against the Grain, hosted by Kip Bodner and Keion Flanigan is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Look, if you wanna know what’s happening now in marketing, what’s ahead and how you can stay ahead of the game, this is the podcast for you host and HubSpot’s, CMO and SVP of Marketing. Kip and Keion share their marketing expertise unfiltered in the details, the truth, and nobody tells it. In fact, a recent episode, they titled Half Baked Marketing Ideas They Got Down In the Weeds, talked about some outside of the box campaigns with real businesses. Listen to marketing, its grain wherever you get your podcast.

(00:55): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Laura Goldberg. She’s the chief marketing officer at Constant Contact. Before Constant Contact, she served as the chief revenue officer for Cabbage, a leading cash flow management and data platform for small businesses acquired by American Express. Prior to that, she was the chief marketing officer at Legal Zoom and has held leadership roles in product and operations with leading e-commerce companies such as the NFL and Napster. So long line of marketing officer jobs. Welcome to the show Laura.

Laura Goldberg (01:34): Thank you for having me.

John Jantsch (01:36): So let’s start there. With CMO role in the span of your career as a cmo, how how’s that role evolved? I have a lot of leadership folks in marketing and I always like to ask when I get that chance for you. That role evolved.

Laura Goldberg (01:50): It’s evolved a lot and in fact I don’t have any of the cred of of building my way up through marketing. I build, my early career was in finance and product and sort of operations slash general management. And it’s funny, when I was offered my first marketing role, I was like, I’m not a marketer, why do you wanna hire me? And the answer was, we need someone who thinks about the customer and someone who is numbers oriented. And so specifically on your question, I think the role has evolved certainly as internet marketing has evolved, as e-commerce has evolved to having to balance both what we think of as traditional marketing brand and image and what do we look like and what messaging are we conveying. But coupled with how are we doing, what’s the ROI on our spend, how are we using media dollars, email, text, the messaging in our product to acquire, engage, and retain our customers. And so 20 years ago, no one would’ve hired me as a cmo. But now as what’s expected has changed and maybe shifted it a bit, it’s perfect role.

John Jantsch (03:14): Well what’s so funny, I mean I’m talking to chief marketing officers now that roles that we’re traditionally in HR are falling under them. The employer branding and even diversity plays. I, I think the role is and just the fact that you spent time as a chief revenue officer. I mean there are a lot of organizations that think maybe marketing ought go there. So if you were sitting in front of a room of peers, what would you tell them that you think the missed opportunities are in the marketing, especially in the chief marketing officer role?

Laura Goldberg (03:48): I think marketers sometimes sell themselves short in terms of strategy and analytics. And it all depends on the story you wanna hear. There are sometimes the less interesting stories. But I think marketing, particularly in commerce led companies, it very much depends on the company has a role that is strategic across functions and is really driving through revenue and top line, the p and l, it’s usually marketing is driving the revenue, it’s generally the bulk of the non-human costs, right of it and pretty large portion other in my world other than tech and maybe support of the human costs. And so I think there’s an opportunity for marketers to sort of step into that broader voice, if you will, of the strategic direction of whatever company they’re in.

John Jantsch (04:55): So we’re in agreement that every department should report to marketing then

Laura Goldberg (04:58): Definitely not

John Jantsch (05:00): . So let’s talk about email as a channel has certainly matured over the last, I don’t know, let’s say 20 years for sure. When you talk about email now, what’s the state of email marketing in the overall mix today?

Laura Goldberg (05:16): I think you’re right. It’s sophisticated, middle aged. I don’t know how we’d say that, but it is, I mean always tried and true when we survey customers, we just did in our small business now survey, when we ask people how they wanna hear from the small businesses that they do business with, they say email right Over half of ’em say email. And I think it’s comfortable if it’s from someone, someone you’ve opted into or a company you’ve opted into, it’s there. You open it, you look at it, right? Open rates are high, ROIs are high now it is low dollar to get into. I also think we think of email marketing as the silo thing. I send you an email with a coupon in it and you either click on it and transact or not, but it’s kind of the gateway to lots of things.

(06:17): So I may send you a happy birthday email just because I may use email as a way to get you to sign up for event that I’m having. And then you go to the event and your affinity for my company or my product increases, we use email to confirm that you’ve signed up for a list. I think we think of it as, oh, email marketing, I offer you something and you respond or you don’t. But it is this much broader communication channel that I kind of view as the center point of everything you’re doing. Now you may also do advertising or SMS or other kinds of marketing, but it’s really this key part and it’s such a, I don’t wanna say easy nothing. It’s relatively has that relatively easy and low risk to get started.

John Jantsch (07:14): Since you mentioned sms, I kinda wanna throw that in there because I’m seeing a lot of people moving. For me example, I’m, I’m a terrible example cuz I’m a boomer who thinks a millennial when it comes to some of this stuff. But particularly younger audiences mean they would actually rather they wanna schedule that appointment and get the reminder and never talk on the phone they wanna text. So how is SMS as a preferred behavior channel now impacting your thinking as an email channel?

Laura Goldberg (07:45): So we agree, we think it’s very important. We see that SMS is becoming a little more used in the small business space, still nowhere near as much as email, but when you talk to consumers, right? Something like 83% of them read texts that are sent to them by a business. And it’s generally with the feelings about it, almost 75% are say things like it’s helpful. Now I do think you have to balance that. How much of it is functional? I need an appointment, remind me my appointment, maybe send me that NPS survey versus buy now, et cetera. So I think marketers need to find that balance, but it is absolutely growing in importance and we need to make it easier and easier for small businesses to get started with sms. The hurdles are a little higher than email, but we added it to our offerings in August and we’re super excited about it. We think all of our businesses would benefit from implementation.

John Jantsch (08:58): I think it’s a lot of things. I mean if you have a segment of your market, of your client base that that’s how they want to communicate, then you have to be there. It’s just a gap if you’re not. Right. All right, let’s go to another technology. How is AI going to impact what you’re doing in constant Contact and you know, see a lot of people AI washing right now. So how is it really going to make a meaningful impact in terms of learning? Right.

Laura Goldberg (09:23): Well so I think, so learning is exactly the right frame because if you think about the data that we have from the billions of emails that our customers send out, the responses that opens, you know, can learn about what works. And so I think a lot of the applications for AI are around, they run the gamut from as simple as subject line suggesting you may type something and an engine can say back to you, Oh this line might be better. There are certainly ways to test what you’re sending out to people. And then I think really interesting more around list segmentation. When should I send you the next email? Maybe you’re an occasional buyer, can I space my emails? Or maybe you tend to buy on Fridays, so can we send emails around that? So I think there’s a lot of ways in terms of list segmentation, when to send what messages to send. And then also AI gives you a way to personalize. You can say, John, you may like the red sweater, I really like a green sweater however. So there are a lot of great applications that can be applied to email and other parts of the digital

John Jantsch (10:48): Marketing platform. I mean is that currently on the concept contact roadmap to have more of that kind of learning technology built in?

Laura Goldberg (10:56): And we have some of it now I do not to our customer marketing saying things like AI powered, cuz it doesn’t mean anything, but it’s like subject line suggestions and smart reporting and things like that. So it’s absolutely sort of part and parcel what we do. I I think how you market it is another interesting, yes, I think it’s a very investor buzzwordy, but it’s, you think about the intel inside if you will, right? Which is like I try in our marketing to market the benefits of what our product does as opposed to the sausage making.

Mike Michalowicz (11:40): It’s Mike Michalowicz here and you are listening to Duck Tape Marketing the podcast. Now here’s two things that probably came to mind. First of all, who the hell’s Mike Mcit? It doesn’t really matter. I’ve been a guest. What does matter? Is this your other thought? I’m not subscribed to Duct Tape Marketing, I’m not downloading it. Should I? Yes, yes. This is the authoritative podcast on marketing Done. And your guide, your host for the show is John Jantsch, the Authority on marketing. The first marketing book I ever read was Duct Tape Marketing and it transformed my life. Small business leaders, business owners, anyone can effectively market on a duct tape budget. You can compete with anyone at any size if you simply follow the method you’re about to learn. And this show reveals all, it’s not the carte blanche, hey this is what people do on social media, you should replicate and do the same thing. It is the essential stuff that works, the timeless strategies that differentiate you, that make you become the authority in marketing and get noticed. So there you have it. Two things to note. John Jantsch your host and you should consider yourself lucky. And secondly, for all that’s holy subscribe to Duct Tape Marketing the podcast.

John Jantsch (12:58): Yeah, it’s real tempting I think for the tech space because we sit around in Bubble and we talk about this stuff and we think it’s cool, but the tip concept contexts built literally on real small businesses, the backs of real small businesses and they could care less. They just wanted to do solve the problem that they want solved. And so I think it actually gets in the way, doesn’t it?

Laura Goldberg (13:20): And I think as long as you benefit, we’re gonna save you time, we’re gonna make your emails more effective, we’re gonna improve your roi, then you’re, you’re talking about the right things. That’s

John Jantsch (13:31): Right. Cause now you’re solving my problem with it .

Laura Goldberg (13:33): Exactly.

John Jantsch (13:35): One of the trends, if you will, that I’m seeing we swung so far to digital that I’m actually seeing a return to. I mean, who gets mail anymore? I’m seeing a return to some more, I don’t even wanna call ’em traditional because digital is traditional now. So let’s say hybrid market. What are some of the effective ways that you’ve seen people merging digital and non-digital?

Laura Goldberg (13:58): So we don’t do a lot of it at Constant Contact, but at Cabbage we were big direct mailers. And it’s interesting when you don’t get as much mail, you actually see the male that you get. It’s interesting, I just got one from Cabbage from Constant Contact. So poor targeting, but interesting that, and that’s what worked for us was like that letter that looks like the bank was sending it. So I think there’s a lot of opportunities. Look, we at Constant Contact at Cabbage, at Legal Zoom, we use linear television. Yeah, it’s more news and sports, but it still gets watched. And if you’re talking news live sports, there’s less recording of that so people are watching. So I think there is an opportunity to blend those things. Look, people still go to trade shows, so I think it’s always healthy to keep an open mind to what worked in the past, what’s coming in the future, and how do you balance those things. Cause I don’t know anyone who’s successful just marketing one way.

John Jantsch (15:18): Yeah, I mean, as goofy as it sounds, cuz a decade ago we were talking about QR codes and we were kinda laughing at how people jumped into it. But now simple thing, sending out a postcard with a QR code, just subscribe to a newsletter or to donate to a non-profit or to get a personalized video. I mean, that kind of blending I think is really effective.

Laura Goldberg (15:39): A hundred percent. We ran an outdoor campaign where, yeah, you’re on bus stops and we had a QR code there and there was special content and fun stuff, so absolutely.

John Jantsch (15:49): It’s kind of funny because they kind of died out and then the Pandemic basically made them. Yes, really, again,

Laura Goldberg (15:57): You can’t go to a restaurant

John Jantsch (15:58): Anymore, can’t order your food. Right, exactly. So now everybody knows how to use that was always one of the hurdles was you had to get a reader to do it first. I mean, it was like when podcasting first started, people, it was just as hard to get people to listen as it was to produce a show. But then once it became ubiquitous, it’s like podcasting took off. Let’s talk about trust because I know that at Constant Contact, you guys talk a lot about building trust with email, but it’s also an amazing way to erode trust. So how do you deal with the fact that a lot of people, because we get so much spam, we get so much stuff we didn’t ask for. So our trust is way down on brands necessarily on email or a lot of channels. How do you use this channel to actually build trust?

Laura Goldberg (16:50): Yeah, so I would say a couple of things. So one, it helps that we serve the small business market. I think when you look at those, do you trust these brands? It’s definitely skewed to bigger brands. And in our small business now Survey, you see this amazing propensity of consumers to wanna want to support small businesses. So that just helps in general, Constant Contact has been in this business for a long time, which is a plus and a minus, but we’re really good at delivering email. Yeah, we are very good about email hygiene, about making sure you can’t buy a list and put it in constant contact. You have to grow your own list. And we offer a lot of services and whether it’s through humans or articles about how to email, how to construct a good email, how often to email, et cetera. And our customers are amazing. They’re really great about it. And if you, it’s like any trust relationship. If you as a small business owner respect your customers, they will respect and trust you back. And so I know it sounds potentially simplistic, but that’s how you build trust in any situation.

John Jantsch (18:17): Just don’t do crappy marketing. Okay. Have you noticed a generational difference in terms of what I want from email? So does Gen Z particularly want something different than all the way up to maybe my generation?

Laura Goldberg (18:31): Yeah, I mean look, I think your I’ll say are, and I don’t know what the exact age cutoff is, the older generations are definitely reading their email and they’re on top of it. I think the younger ones are more, Yeah, I got to that today and oh I have to, right? It’s not urgent, but I think that’s okay, right? If it’s urgent, if it’s like, hey, your package is outside, come get it, that’s text, right? Yeah. But if it’s, Hey, we’re having this sale for a week. If you don’t read that immediately, that’s okay. But they still read it. It’s not sure you’re having a two way conversation through email, but it gets read and it gets processed. I think it might just be on a different timeframe.

John Jantsch (19:23): Well, and can we also make other very broad generalizations instead and say shorter is better?

Laura Goldberg (19:30): A hundred percent,

John Jantsch (19:31): Yeah. Okay.

Laura Goldberg (19:32): That I think that’s true for everyone. I always do. If I don’t get the gist in this much, you’ve lost me. So I think it’s graph, visual, visually arresting to the point, relevant, personalized. I think that’s not even generational. That’s what matters no matter what. And those are the important things no matter how old you are or frankly what the medium is.

John Jantsch (20:03): Yeah. So it’s probably too late if you’re listening to this show right now, but I’m gonna ask Laura anyway, what should we be doing as email marketers for the holidays?

Laura Goldberg (20:13): not too late. Now is the perfect time though. It’s so interesting not to keep bringing up our survey, but we did find that people are on it earlier. You see advertising earlier and earlier, but people are getting on holiday. I think it’s one, you know, wanna engage your customers and remind them that you’re there and the great offers that you have. I think you also wanna assure some reassure people. I always think about this, Should I buy this now or should I wait for the big sale that’s gonna gonna be after Thanksgiving? Reassure them that this is great and this is great for you at the right time. And to just be, I think the other thing is, particularly if you’re in a retail business, being operationally ready for the urgency speed and then sometime, I don’t know, not great behavior that happens around, happens around the holidays.

John Jantsch (21:12): Well, and I was half kidding being too late, but it just feels like the big players are black Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, in October. And it can feel like the holidays just get pushed on us so much for sooner.

Laura Goldberg (21:25): Right, Agreed.

John Jantsch (21:27): Well Laura, I appreciate you stopping by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast and sharing some thoughts on the state of email. Is there any anywhere you wanna invite people to connect with you or check out Constant Contact?

Laura Goldberg (21:38): Yeah, people should check out Constant Contact, constant contact.com and we are there to answer questions and I am Laura Goldberg pretty easily findable on LinkedIn.

John Jantsch (21:49): Awesome. Well again, thanks for taking the time and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days soon out there on the road.

Laura Goldberg (21:55): Awesome. Thank you so much. It was really fun.

John Jantsch (21:57): Hey, and one final thing before you go. You know how I talk about marketing strategy strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that, what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It’s called the Marketing Strategy Assessment. You can find it @ marketingassessment.co. Check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That’s just marketingassessment.co. I’d love to chat with you about the results that you get.