John Jantsch (00:01.304)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jance and my guest today is Dr. Sabrina Starling. She’s the founder of TAP, the potential of business growth and leadership development firms specializing in helping entrepreneurs build profitable, sustainable companies that support both their lives and the lives of their teams. Known for her work on the four week vacation model and her expertise in people-focused business systems, Dr. Sabrina is a sought after coach and speaker.

for owners ready to take their business to the next level without being the bottleneck. So Sabrina, welcome back to the show.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (00:36.692)

Thank you, John. I’m delighted to be here.

John Jantsch (00:39.392)

So you work, your work primarily centers around helping business owners get out of the weeds, struggle to let go, things of that nature. Do you find, you know, I know people probably come to you and say like, what’s the hack? What’s the system? What’s the process I need to put in place? Do you find the first thing is really a mindset issue?

Dr. Sabrina Starling (00:59.124)

Mindset is 98 % of the issue, if not 100 % of the issue. And I know for myself, there’s so many ways that I have over the years held myself back, held the company back, gotten in my own way, just from the statement of, I can’t do that. That runs through my head. You know, we hear wonderful advice and ideas and strategies on podcasts like Duck Tank Marketing. And then,

For whatever reason, we’ll say, well, I can’t. And I have learned that we can do incredible things that, and we really need to shift any statement that starts with I can’t, or I don’t know how, or I don’t have the resources to what can I, what resources do I need, what support do I need, where can I learn, and just start asking those open-ended questions to create possibilities.

John Jantsch (01:55.278)

Yeah, I know. You know, I’ve been doing this for a long time and I do know that, you know, one of the things that creeps up all the time for me even this is like, well, I could do it faster myself is one. The other one sometimes is, but that’s kind of where I get like my joy or happiness, you know, even if that’s like not where I need to be. Right. mean, so sometimes it’s, I mean,

Dr. Sabrina Starling (02:12.56)

yeah.

John Jantsch (02:19.906)

Do you ever have sessions where you’re like got the couch out and it’s like, let’s visit your childhood. Cause like, are, what are some of the reasons that these exist?

Dr. Sabrina Starling (02:28.276)

You know, I don’t find it very productive to go back to childhood just because we don’t have time in life to rehash and figure out where all these issues come from. What I have found is that when our back is up against the wall, we can do things we didn’t think were possible. And especially when we have these things in our businesses that we hang on to because they’re our fun.

John Jantsch (02:31.118)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (02:40.066)

That’s the doctor part though, right? So I just assumed.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (02:57.462)

our joy. So for me, that was a big example of that is the Profit by Design podcast. I love hosting the podcast. I love sharing and teaching. I love interviewing guests. And then in the summer of 2024, right before I was going to take a four week vacation, fully unplugged, it was the week that I was just wrapping things up.

My husband, Ned, passed away suddenly and unexpectedly. The trauma around that, can’t even, I don’t have enough background as a psychologist even to go into the level of what that did to me. All I was able to do is call one of my team members and say, don’t worry about the business. We’re going to figure it out, but I can’t be there right now. And

The beauty of that was that somebody in my family had already notified the business. So they already knew, thank goodness. And my team member said, Dr. Shabrita, don’t worry, we’ve got this. You just go do and take whatever time you need. I ended up being completely out of the business, fully out, like I couldn’t track anything for six weeks.

And that meant the podcast was just completely taken from me. And I was so relieved that it was. My team member, Melissa, stepped up and started leading the podcast. you know what? We had this whole transition plan in place where she was going to take it over and it was going to take a year and a half for us to get there. Well, this switch flipped overnight and she stepped up and took it.

And she’s done amazing things with it and our listenership has grown. We’re getting incredible feedback on it. And so, but in my head, back to the mindset issue, I had created like, this is going to be hard. And Melissa had created stuff in her head about the hosting the podcast and all the mental space that would be involved for her and why it would be hard. And all of a sudden we didn’t have an option. She just had to run with it.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (05:21.526)

and make it work.

John Jantsch (05:24.238)

Well, and I know that you have in some ways refocused your work a little bit on this idea of secession and sustainability. I think it was always about getting out of the weeds, but I think maybe it’s taken a new level of, of, of legacy and impact perhaps. and you, you, you did tell, you did share the story about your, your husband’s death off air. so again, I can’t imagine, but, talk a little bit about, you know,

Dr. Sabrina Starling (05:32.297)

Yes.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (05:36.649)

Absolutely.

John Jantsch (05:53.954)

that kind of refocus or shifted focus, I should say.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (05:57.633)

So the shift in focus that it created for me, he and I were in the midst of estate planning. Because we’re young, you don’t expect that life is going to end at this phase of, at this stage of life. And so we had postponed our estate planning for two years for various reasons. You know, we would get started and stop. No, one of the main reasons is not fun.

John Jantsch (06:12.163)

me.

John Jantsch (06:19.722)

It’s not very fun is one of the main reasons.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (06:24.842)

But one of the things that I became acutely aware of is one of the barriers for us is there were so many things that felt so complex and so many things to figure out. And so we kept postponing decisions, like we would kick that can down the road. And we’ll talk about that next month. We got too much going on this month to deal with this issue. And now that I’m on the other end of it, of feeling the pain of all of our decisions that we didn’t make,

John Jantsch (06:34.732)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (06:54.384)

and living through it and all the complexity that has been created because we didn’t make these decisions. It’s made me highly aware of all the people in my life that I don’t want to put through that, including the business. And so I’ve really started looking at the business from the lens of if something happened to me today, what’s going to happen to the business and most importantly, what’s going to happen to my team members who put

everything they have into coming into work and serving our clients. I want them to know they still have a job, a paycheck, and that their opportunities continue to exist regardless of if I’m here or not. And because I know if they’re okay, they will take care of our clients. So I’m looking at it from the perspective of what do I need to put in place to make sure that my team is okay. And then I’m looking at it from the perspective of

You know, I don’t know what’s gonna happen 10 years from now, so I’m not doing my estate planning 10 years from now. I’m doing it based on here’s where we are right now. And if something were to happen to me this year or next year, and then I’ve got a reminder in my scheduling system every other year to prompt me to review my estate planning and the succession planning at Tap the Potential and update it. And that will be how I…

handle things just from a one to two year perspective rather than trying to figure it all out because that trying to figure it all out is too much. And I have a 19 year old and I have an 11 year old who neither of whom have any interest in owning tap the potential or running tap the potential. And so

What does that mean for my team and for the legacy that’s been created at Tap the Potential? Tap the Potential has been in existence for 20 years. We support business owners in taking their lives back from our business. We’re passionate about what we do. I don’t want that to stop if I stop for some reason, right? So how do I ensure that this operation can go on? Well, everything that I’ve been teaching

Dr. Sabrina Starling (09:12.449)

for how do you build a sustainable business that’s profitable and that can run without you applies when it comes to succession planning. Because we’re looking at how does the leadership team run the business so that my daughters could continue to own it. And we can create the opportunity for members of the team to purchase it down the road if they so chose. But even if they didn’t.

there could still be, it can still be owned by my daughters, but the business can continue to run with the leadership team and the systems that are in place.

John Jantsch (09:51.182)

I’m curious, this kind of launched you on a little bit of understanding more legal structures and financial structures and things that maybe somebody who does exit planning for a living would do?

Dr. Sabrina Starling (10:03.497)

Yes, so absolutely. It’s also led me to look at what is the most simple solution to put in place, because there’s a lot of legal complexity that could get added into this and financial complexity that a lot of small businesses just aren’t in a position to take advantage of and it wouldn’t serve them. really looking at, we know this business can run

with the leadership team running it. It has been, we have the processes, we have the systems. So what’s really the next level to get the business where if I’m gone and I’m completely out of the picture and a 19 year old and an 11 year old are owning this business, obviously with a trustee, somebody who is guiding them in the background, but ultimately they’re the owners.

What needs to happen? Well, the first thing that needs to happen is my daughters need to know the team at Tap the Potential, right? And my team needs to know them. They need to know my intent. All of that needs to be documented. The operating agreements need to be updated at Tap the Potential. That’s what my attorney is looking at right now as we speak. And so these are things that

John Jantsch (11:08.973)

Mm.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (11:29.335)

can be done in any small business from the perspective of, if you, John, you have family who want to be a part of duct tape marketing and continue that legacy, but not every small business owner has that. And so.

John Jantsch (11:44.974)

Yeah, but even even up, so I will say, you know, it was not anything intentional, anything planned. You know, she came back from backpacking, you know, after college and said, I need you, do you have like some work I could do? You know, that was literally, you know, how she got into business, you know, 15 years later, 13 years later, you know, she’s the CEO. But we have, I will say we have not been intentional. It’s been, hey, I know you, you know, me, we trust each other, we’ll make it work. And it has.

But I wouldn’t suggest that that’s probably the path for everyone, is it?

Dr. Sabrina Starling (12:16.535)

If it is an opportunity and a possibility, it’s a wonderful thing. But we have so many small business owners at Tap the Potential where the business owners come to us because they’re frazzled, they’re burnt out. We support them in getting that business profitable and it can run without them. And a lot of times they’ll say, now that it’s running so smoothly, I don’t really want to sell it. I’d like to own it. I like it again. It’s fun.

John Jantsch (12:29.388)

Right.

John Jantsch (12:39.918)

I like it again.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (12:45.585)

And so great. And really that’s where I am because when I came back, I thought, you know what, I can’t run a business. don’t want, I need to sell this. I need to get out because my head is just not here. Well, so first off, when you’re grieving, you don’t make any rash decisions. So fortunately I did not act on that. I just allowed that feeling to be there.

John Jantsch (12:54.208)

Mm-hmm. Mm.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (13:08.311)

And now that I’ve stepped back in and it’s, you we’re a little past a year out and I reflect on it, I’m looking at, okay, things are running really smoothly. I can do the parts that I love, which is coming on podcasts and the visibility sharing our message. And one of the things that we wanna be so intentional about it to have the potential is sharing our learning and the journey that we are on. So that’s why we’re talking in full transparency about this.

But I’ve seen so many business owners who have family members, adult children, who are maybe in the corporate world and they’re hoping to somehow lure those kids to coming in and taking a leadership role in the business. And for one reason or another, it rarely works out. The kids don’t have necessarily the same passion that we have, we who founded the business and started it.

John Jantsch (13:46.839)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (14:04.428)

But there are people on our teams who have that passion, who own our immutable laws, who bought into our vision, who help us grow that vision. And it’s a very organic process. And so really looking at how do we take what’s already strong in the business and allow that to grow and not bottleneck it by saying, I want to continue to own it.

John Jantsch (14:08.364)

Yes.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (14:33.876)

and be in it, there’s a difference, then that’s transition that I’m in. Now I’m working about 10 hours a week at the most, a lot of weeks it’s less than that, and really looking at how do I serve the business, but most importantly making sure that anything that I’m doing can run, can continue without me. So the systems are there to make it happen.

John Jantsch (15:00.301)

So.

What I’m really hearing you say a lot of times too is you’re right a lot of times the dream is like, I want my kids to take it over. But you know, really what the typical business really just needs to start actually grooming that was probably not their best word, but grooming leadership folks almost from the beginning, right? I mean, start identifying them with the idea that that however many years from now, you you’re going to need leaders if you grow, but also that’s your best bet for transitioning.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (15:31.703)

Yes, and it may not be that the leaders buy the business. A lot of times we talk business owners off the ledge. We just had a conversation in one of our small groups this past week where a business owner wanted to give ownership percentage to a member of the leadership team to kind of create a safety net there that that person is going to then take over the business and become a co-owner.

John Jantsch (15:54.646)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (16:00.183)

A lot of times we’ve seen that go awry over the years too. And so what we have to remember is that we, the business owners have put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into building these companies. And if we give someone ownership percentage and yes, they may be an incredible leader in the company and they may be doing, you know, they may have great strategic vision and being a huge support. But if we’re going to just give the ownership

what are we really doing to that A player? So right, one of the things psychologically that we have to be mindful of is that A players are intrinsically motivated. We show up, we work hard because it matters to us to do a good job. And so when we start giving bonuses or incentives financially to reward an A player who works hard, that takes away that intrinsic motivation. It can interfere.

John Jantsch (16:57.39)

Hmm.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (16:58.432)

with it. And so I’m not saying don’t ever give ownership percentage to leadership team. That’s not where I’m saying I’m saying be very thoughtful and make sure there is a clear plan and way that that is going to be done. And I would really encourage looking at creating the possibility for people on the leadership team to buy into the business over time, just like you want to buy stock on the stock market into another company, create

those opportunities versus just here you go because you’ve been a wonderful team member.

John Jantsch (17:32.238)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So in, in light of everything you’ve shared today, the four week vacation almost, almost feels trite. You know, because I mean, it’s like, I’m sure people that are hearing their story are like, I need to take a four week vacation. Cause who knows what’s going to happen tomorrow. Right. And I know that’s something you’re known for. In a way.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (17:40.376)

you

Dr. Sabrina Starling (17:52.76)

Right.

John Jantsch (17:59.576)

Do you find that sometimes people are like, okay, yeah, that’s the goal. That’s the goal. I’m to get myself there. But you kind of explain something where maybe just do it and like rip the bandaid off. Do it even if you don’t feel ready and see what happens.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (18:13.941)

Yes, so do it and be planful. Like the worst way to do this is, know, sudden and unexpected. When we support business owners in getting to the point where the business can run four weeks without you, we say start small, start with the baby steps. So it’s not overwhelming because none of us can talk ourselves into just saying, okay, team, I’m going to be gone for four weeks. Good luck. We’re never going to do that.

John Jantsch (18:36.472)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (18:39.767)

But if we look at what’s the longest we’ve been able to be away from the business fully unplugged and increase that. So if the longest is four hours, because let’s face it, some business owners are tied to their phone constantly feeling like they have to respond to everything. So maybe you take a full day off where you are fully unplugged and really look at what is going to fall through the cracks and

what can be delegated, what can come off my plate. We use a tool called the chart of $10,000 an hour activities. And it is an incredible delegation tool. And it really comes at things from the perspective that we’re spending the majority of our time on things that give us very little personal satisfaction and can be competently handled by another person. The statistic is that we spend 44 % of our time.

on activities that offer us little to no personal satisfaction and can be competently handled by another person. And so we want to start moving in the direction where most of our time is focused on these $10,000 an hour activities. We are doing a $10,000 an hour activity when we are working from our strengths, making everything else easier or unnecessary for ourselves or others.

That definition means that every person on the team can be doing $10,000 an hour activity. And the beauty in that is that as we start delegating and taking things off our plate, we will have leadership team members who become overwhelmed and start to burn out because everything we’re putting on them, they’re kind of just like, I can’t breathe.

John Jantsch (20:25.601)

Yes, right.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (20:28.355)

So guess what? They have to learn how to delegate too. And they pull out their chart of $10,000 an hour activities and look at what’s the highest and most valuable use of their time around the sweet spot and what drives the profit in the business and start delegating down. This, when we’re delegating down in that way, what we’re doing is we’re creating a business that is highly desirable for A players to work in because A players want one thing.

John Jantsch (20:52.621)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (20:56.309)

opportunities for growth. Not necessarily advancement, opportunities for growth. And so when we hold on, like when I held on to the podcast hosting, I thought I was just doing it to keep my team member from being overwhelmed. She jumped in and she grew and she is so proud of what she has done with the podcast. Now I just come on, I’m kind of like a guest on my own podcast and we banter back and forth, but she’s grown.

and she owns it and she feels proud and that’s the rule of thumb around delegating is once you’ve delegated it and the person has handled it you don’t take it back because when you take it back what you’re saying is I don’t think you’re that competent like yeah you handled it in a few weeks but you can’t handle it long term and so this this chart of ten thousand dollar an hour activities you can download it at tapthepotential.com forward slash

John Jantsch (21:39.638)

Yeah, you failed, right. Right. Yeah, right.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (21:54.426)

10K. That is the baby step forward to really thinking about how do I get this business where it can run without me and it can live beyond me.

John Jantsch (22:07.522)

That’s the perfect segue because I was going to say, what’s the one simple thing you just gave it to us? It’s tapthepotential.com slash 10 K. So, Sabrina, I appreciate you stopping by, the duct tape marketing podcast. think you’d invite people to find out more at tap the potential anywhere else you want to invite people to connect with you.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (22:11.065)

You

Dr. Sabrina Starling (22:24.971)

If you love podcasts, check out the Profit by Design podcast.

John Jantsch (22:28.366)

Well, again, it was great seeing you. Hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days soon out there on the road.

Dr. Sabrina Starling (22:34.862)

Yes, thank you, John.